American Arcade Stick is UNDERRATED!

[@psymagearcade]

American sticks were my first arcade levers because that was the only option. That's actually why I could never get used to ball top. Still have a lot of nostalgia for those old American cabinets and playing those games in random places growing up. However, a lot of American arcade machines weren't taken care of properly, so quite a few machines I encountered had Happ sticks that didn't work properly.

[@EngineerSTG]

Random places is no lie. I miss finding arcades randomly in laundromat’s, hotels, etc. Finding a Raiden machine in the most random place was like finding gold at the end of a rainbow

[@TheElectricUnderground]

Yes same here, even when I was a Japanese stick player (many years ago now ha), i went ahead and swapped out the ball top for a bat top ha. Also it is a shame how poorly maintained American arcades are, it makes it feel like it's a waste of time to go, even as a hardcore arcade fan.

[@seanm1738]

100% agree. I love the short throw of Sanwa's, but I have to have my bat top and octogate. JLFs are a little too loose for me, but the JLW is just right in terms of tension.

[@Mingodough]

I love when mark the electric underground talks about sticks :drooling_face:

[@TheElectricUnderground]

yes arcade stick are a beloved topic on this channel ha. Because I love my k-stick lever so much I haven't had much opportunity to talk about them lately, so trying out the American stick and talking about it was a fun time.

[@Shiro128b]

HELL YEAH! Industrias lorenzo lever for the win. I've been wanting to build a hybrid stick for a while with an American lever and Sanwa buttons.

[@TheElectricUnderground]

Yeah it's soooo much better than the cheap usa sticks you typically come across at arcades ha. I'd love to actually tinker with it a bit more and do some tension mods on it.

[@riggel8804]

I have an American stick I use to practice on when I go to SF2HF tournaments. Those guys insist on using American sticks on original cabs. I've grown to really like it. Once I changed my grip on the stick to cupping it with 3 fingers I was good. You really need to cup an american stick with your whole hand. The movements are big, loud and AMERICAN. I'm glad you tested the Lorenz IL stick. that is the one I am most familiar with and what most people seem to use in the HF scene. I bought a sf2 ps2 anniversary enclosure on ebay and switched out the internals. Other guys do this. You can find them for about 100$. I will add that I do not like the straight line button lay out but that's how the cabs are and I just deal with it.

[@TheElectricUnderground]

Yes the design of the American stick is really fitting, where you need to put your whole body into the inputs basically ha. That's awesome your local scene just insisted on using USA sticks. I agree completely about the straight cut button layout though, i'm not a fan of it at all and that is why i def prefer the neo stick that scanline is doing, so that I can have my spring american buttons, but in a proper arcing layout.

[@viewtifuljoe99]

Yeah, so many barcades in town for me have busted parts. It stinks to go up to a 3S cab and then remember, "oh yeah, you can't do flash kicks or jump on the p1 side". I got real spoiled after experiencing well maintained arcades in Japan.

[@TheElectricUnderground]

yes it's honestly outrageous. I went to this barcade in my local area years ago that was getting a ton of hype, and I actually walked out with a pocket full of quarters because almost ALL of the machines had broken sticks.

[@DEERF0RCE]

Old man here. I have Suzo-Happ levers and buttons on a MVS cab housing a Mistercade. The new Happ levers have square gates, which is different than the round gate from back in the day (at least mine do). Spring tension is hard, throw is about double Sanwa. That being said, it would take a beast to break a true Happ lever, the shaft is 3/8 inch steel. She is big also, lol. All that said, a fresh one is accurate, clean feeling, and responsive. I think they are as good as the Sanwa, just built for drunken American's brutishness vs Sanwa's more delicate feel.

[@TheElectricUnderground]

oh that's awesome to hear, yes now that I have the case I'm gonna have to get a happ stick to try out and compare to the Lorenzo. Funny story about american arcades and the levers needing to be tough. A few years ago, I went to a mall that had a MVC3 cabinet, which from what I understand is very rare to see out in the wild. And funny enough, rather than having american levers, it comes with a sanwa jlf or some japanese lever. Well ... not only was that poor little japanese lever broken, it was literally snapped off lol. So agreed, there is no way a delicate japanese lever can survive the psychotic punishment of an american arcade.

[@nicklong27]

What I love most about these videos is watching your hair evolve haha... honestly it's looking pretty cool now. Damn, I wish I had hair.

[@TheElectricUnderground]

yes the hair stylist for the electric underground inc. did a great job with my recent trim XD

[@Rastan78]

Lol i was just talking about how legit the Happ P360 is as well as Choi's last performance at EVO over at shmups forum. Got to play CVS2 with him many times in the day and his execution was always incredible. Looking forward to the vid. That Mark is a real 'merican haha

[@TheElectricUnderground]

Ha yeah I go over this in the vid, but because of how poorly maintained american arcades are, it gives the impression that all American levers are trash. But if you get a quality one, like the Lorenzo, they are surprisingly solid (though still a tad heavy tension wise)

[@Rastan78]

No stick is great once it has a 64oz mountain dew poured over it

[@ShelfWarmer]

Just be glad you never had to deal with the Australian MCA sticks, they are okay if in good condition, but that is very rare. Very stiff, short throw distance but no click. They have their defenders here in Australia, but that's more nostalgia than any objective advantage that I can see.

[@TheElectricUnderground]

oh dear god ha. Yeah that sounds a lot like those ball top Simpsons sticks I describe in the beginning. I don't know what the hell is happening with those, but they have no click, no feel, and and you have to yank on them to get any input at all.

[@kenhughes-pt9tb]

Really cool video, takes me back to my first MAS stick and Supergun over 20 years ago. You can adjust the tension with different springs

[@TheElectricUnderground]

Thank you very much ken! Also thanks for the tip on the spring tension, I am going to be messing around with that here soon ha.

[@lumiere245]

I learned fighting games on Japanese style sticks at home, but recently I have gone to a few arcades and found American sticks very difficult to get used to. Doing basic things like finding down+back to block low is super tough.

[@TheElectricUnderground]

yes and that is especially tricky because in american arcades the levers are not standardized at all. So you could be using a fairly good american lever, or one straight from the pits of hell like the crappy ones at my local arcade. I think one reason why j stick has become as popular as it has isn't just its design, but also its standardization.

[@GameBoyGuru]

Funny you mentioned playing Gun.Smoke on an iCade machine! There's an iCade at the family fun center about 70 miles from where I live, and while *most* of the arcade stuff they have there is the predictable modern stuff, feature cabs, etc. But back in the corner, they have an iCade set up (I called it the "Dadcade" when I saw it). It has the less than ideal, traditional concave American style buttons, but the stick did feel good. I ended up playing Gun.Smoke on it. The lever was responsive, and felt good while I was playing it. Unfortunately, without autofire, those concave buttons were nasty to use for more than a few minutes with the game. That said, I was happy to see at least one traditional style cab there that I could actually engage with. Those MAS sticks are really impressive looking, but as you said, the price point is a bit high. I'm still intent on building out a couple of my own custom sticks first. Maybe at some point I'll invest in something more premium like that.

[@TheElectricUnderground]

Yes gunsmoke was like the only cool game on the machine besides 1943. Overall it played pretty well I have to say, whatever type of stuff the icade it up to (which i assume is emulation).

[@censoredterminalautism4073]

The first stick that I owned was American-style (in a wooden box). Not the highest quality, but it was fun to use, and it was how I ultimately got into arcade sticks. I did go back to it a few times, and it does work, but it is a lot heavier and requires a lot more movement, and I tend to prefer to control the stick with more precise finger movement instead. But I do know that there are American sticks with hall effect switches, and that may be pretty cool because of how reliable magnetic switches can be (can also be analog). It's also worth mentioning, the Hori sticks don't come with JLFs anymore. Not from RAP4 and onwards, those come with the Hayabusa levers. I never used one, but apparently they are similar to the JLF, but are lighter and have more problems. I saw a video on KZbin comparing sticks, and the Hayabusa was so wobbly (I think because the spring is just too light its weight) that it would hit opposing directions when returning to neutral. The actual Sanwa JLF doesn't do that, ever. Anyway, American sticks are not sensitive enoguh for me. To me even the JLF has an actuation distance that is a little too long, to the point that I can miss some inputs (though it's still good because of how light and smooth it is). When I started using it (to try it), I could miss hadoukens from not hitting the corners properly. Eventually I adjusted to it, but some movements are noticeably harder. Quickly going from up to down is particularly difficult. Very fast directional inputs in general, I guess. It's particularly noticeable with the wineglass grip, because the JLF still wants my hand to move a bit (and rub the back of my hand on the plate), instead of just my fingers, and the shaft is slightly too tall for that grip. The LS-40, on the other hand, is too sensitive and too heavy. I tried the extremes, and concluded that the optimal is in between, for me. The LS-32 is the comfortable in-between, I guess. Not sure about Korean, still have to get one to try it out, probably one with a chopped collar so I don't have to drill the plate (which can't be undone), and so I can try a ball top as well to try both of my grips, but can still try the rubber grommet, which is the main point of it. Also not sure about actuators and other JLF mods. Apparently Sanwa made two bigger actuators. The blue one looked pretty nice. But I think the biggest one (red?) was way too big.

[@TheElectricUnderground]

oh yes great note on the hori hayabusa. So this is a lever I have tracked over the years. And basically when it first came out, it was a hot mess and not nearly as good as a standard JLF ha, but over the years (think how many hayabusas have been made at this point), the lever has improved a lot. I would say now if you buy a newer hori lever with a hayabusa, it's going to be pretty dang close to a standard sanwa jlf. Those early ones were definitely rough though, like on the ps3 and xbox 360 sticks.

[@DefamedRice]

running defense for HAPP in 2023 is masochistic lol, but IL is legit, I use their concave buttons in my classic neogeo build. As an old arcade player, I still like American style in theory, but I've removed all HAPP style sticks from my builds. I use Crown for all my 3D now, and I'm on Seimitsu for life for SNK because the AES style compact stick's throw and snappiness might be the greatest feel ever, but you can't get a lever like that at all anymore unless you cannibalize broken AES controllers.

[@TheElectricUnderground]

exactly rice, I am basically the same ha. I actually like USA sticks (the good ones) a lot more than I probably should ha, but I think they are being eclipsed in quality by korean levers. Still though, I think they are much better than they get credit for when properly maintained ha. And I hope that is the clear message of the video, is that you can actually play much better on a usa stick than people realize, but there is still a lot of room for improvement.

[@DefamedRice]

I actually think the only real problem with American style is they get bundled with circle gates all the time, and the heftier action makes direct diagonals difficult, it's like trying to DP on a Crown with max tension lol

[@DanNguyen-ey5tw]

There are other options beside MAS. AFS and Buttercade have cases specially meant for IL sicks and buttons. Just happy that the part proceeds go to support the Nguyen family who were the originators of that stick. As for the Happ buttons, you can buy them in short stem form. Paradise Arcade and Arcade Express(UK, they do ship internationally), and Arcade Renovations have them in stock. Focus Attack also wrote about these style buttons in Japanese Sticks. most Stick are a no but sticks like the Qanba Dragon are a yes. So larger fight sticks can accommodate the short stem buttons. you will need conversion wire for the microswitches. Customizations are endless but Scanline City are amazing. Their build quality is next to none. Great video!

[@pastluck]

This definitely piqued my interest. I’ve built your tricked out korean lever, and have many other sticks that are mainly rocking different seimitsu levers, and I have a sanjuks v3 and v7 that are both just waiting for the right case to be put in. They are all super fun to try and having something unique feeling like this sounds appealing to me for sure, and that M.A.S case is definitely badass looking. Love anything super heavy duty.

[@TheElectricUnderground]

yeah I think if you are a korean lever fan, as it sounds, usa sticks are fun to mess around with as they have a similar feel for sure. It isn't going to outperform the top tier K sticks, but I think they are fun to throw in and use, especially if you plan to go to an American arcade and want to practice. I have a sanjuks infiltration stick (which is v3 right), and it's funny how similar it feels to usa stick.

[@RICHUNCLEPENNYBAGS77]

Now that I'm actually able to watch i do have some technicalities to comment on: only the Japanese lever design truly has a gate. The collar in the Korean stick kind of has a similar purpose, but the Happ/IL style has no mechanism that restricts the actuator. The arrangement of the switches themselves (plus actuator size and shape) is what controls the range of motion. For a Japanese lever, you can rotate the restrictor gate to switch to four-way, but for the American design you actually would switch it from a square to a circular actuator that can't activate two directions at once (not that anyone wants a four-way joystick anymore). So depending on which one you get it can still have a corner stop. You're definitely right that the spring tension is way higher though: one thing people really dislike is the possibility of getting an opposing direction if you let the lever snap back. I think the main reason it fell out of favor was just that Japanese players were beating our collective asses and people decided the equipment must be why. There used to be way more people who preferred Happ. It doesn't help that Happ used to be the premier maker and now it's junk.

[@TheElectricUnderground]

yes that is very true that japanese sticks are the only ones with a special gate part that you can swap out and stuff, where as the "gates" of an American stick or a k stick is created by the collar and the microswitches (hence why I am such a proponent of a full collar k stick, rather than a chopped collar, you can tell the difference in the throw between those two). I absolutely think you are spot on about american players blaming their sticks for losing to japanese players ha. I saw this EXACT same mentality with korean stick and tekken, where years ago american players were convinced that the korean lever gave the korean players some kind of special advantage ha. Now in the days of hitboxes and leverless that argument is very silly, hitbox absolutely has the advantage hardware wise, and yet the korean k stick players are still dominant.

[@RICHUNCLEPENNYBAGS77]

@@TheElectricUnderground I actually watched a Daigo video where he said he would basically rank the controllers HitBox > pad > regular stick in terms of effectiveness, so while he'd prefer an all-stick rule he would probably switch to pad if they banned the Hitbox but continued allowing pad.

[@optionlV]

Thanks for the video on American stick. Admittedly, I never gave them a chance. It sounds like you need to have Guile-sized arms to counter-act the tension of American sticks. Despite that, I can now see the merits to using American stick. I personally have converted to leverless. But my favorite stick is a Sanwa JLF or Hori Hayabusa with the Otto DIY Mod v2. It basically converts Japanese-style to Korean-style with a grommet replacing the spring. The biggest pro for this is being able to fit a "Korean-style" stick in a case that accepts only Japanese style sticks. It opened my eyes to the importance of sticks with a fast return to neutral.

[@TheElectricUnderground]

ha yes guile sized arms is a great description :-D Yes the tension on this badboy is pretty powerful, I'm really curious if i can find a way to mod the stick to drop the tension a bit, I'll probably be trying that over the next few weeks ha. And yes a fast return to neutral is absolutely crucial for a good stick, it's sort of a balancing act really where you want the stick to return to neutral quickly, but you don't want it to over snap and cause another input. This is why I think the rubber on the korean lever is so good, since it starts to lose speed as it nears neutral again.

[@TVindustries5000]

>started on japanese sticks in SSFIVAE era >hated american sticks the few times i was able to use them growin up >got interested in stick modding >curious about american parts and buy happ >still hated them >got IL sticks and tried again >got used to them >now my preferred stick American joysticks just need tuning. loosening the microswitch screws and making sure they're pushed flush towards the actuator. also I feel IL manually cut the joysticks shafts so the tension can deel different from to another because varying tension to me. theyre still good tho and have one in my main stick. happ with the white nylon parts (which are IL made i believe) is choice. you just need to get used to the american stick. the return to center is so good. they feel chunky and smooth. Battops are peefect. iv played some battops on japanese stick and it just doesnt feel right to me. and Iv actually fallen for concave american buttons. they just need the right switches in them. Tornado Terry's offers up full 2 player kits with all cherry switches.

[@artursjoblom5142]

Did you ever try using the lever in your right hand? I think its interesting that left side is standard for right handed people. Another thought is to do drills/practice with the wrong hand to improve performance with the ordinary hand. I tried this when i was a sweaty mouse and keyboard fps gamer and it helped me realizeand understand all the small details in my fine motor skills and i got alot better. A video about "outside the box" practice/drills like this would be interesting 😀👍

[@TheElectricUnderground]

I actually thought about this a while back. It is an interesting topic, actually, because clearly the lever hand is doing a lot more work than the button hand. A fun little fact about me though, is that I am fairly ambidextrous, so I can actually play an arcade stick left handed about as well as I could right handed anyway ;-) but if you are really right hand dominant, I think it would make sense to try swapping the lever to the other side, why not?

[@scottpilgrim2]

As a noob to all this, this is very informative. Thank you

[@TheElectricUnderground]

Mission accomplished! I'm really happy to hear that, because rather than trying to push a usa stick or anything, I just wanted to sort of clear the air on them being better than their reputation, but still having room for improvement ha. As a new stick user, I think the safest recommendation is grabbing a used hori real arcade pro on ebay, used stick prices are nice and low these days.

[@scottpilgrim2]

@@TheElectricUnderground Heh thanks i just had a look. For the new prices here I think i'll get a new one eventually. But i'm thinking a kitsune will fit me better as i'm also a lightning fast blind typer on keyboards :')

[@Choops6969]

great video thank you. i miss my neo geo M.A.S. stick. i was a fool to sell it back in the day.

[@TheElectricUnderground]

Oh yeah I bet that looked awesome with the neo geo art and everything ha.

[@Papa_Grind]

I love Galloping Ghost. That place is awesome. I make it a point to stop there every time I’m in Chicago.

[@epicon6]

I congratulate you for keeping the arcade culture alive and giving Ameerican sticks some love too❤

[@ps3inquisition441]

My first arcade stick was a Happ Competition, back when they were better. It was great for SF, and not bad for shmups.

[@TheElectricUnderground]

Yes I've heard so many different things about happ parts over the years, it sounds like there were eras when their products were of higher quality than other eras.

[@Lupo32]

​@@TheElectricUnderground IL or Industrious Lorenzo is the orginal maker, happ split from them and got bought by suzo and merged into suzo-happ.... then there is a knock off called EG start. Kinda like zippy joystick is a clone or knockoff of sanwa .

[@Spr0cter]

As an mvc2 player, I wayy prefer the American stick. That fast kick back is so important.

[@TheElectricUnderground]

I could absolutely see that. I think if you are playing a game with a lot of motion inputs, the american stick is a great option since it has such fast return to neutral and these massive diagonals. It's less precise as a Japanese lever, but i can see it getting the job done ha.

[@joshlepley1306]

Why tho? IL eurostick is only 16 bucks. Made in Spain. You failed to mention the best OG stick.

[@mr.voidout4739]

A pizzarria/barcade recently popped up in my city, only a few games, but they're obviously setting to bank on a Simpsons and TMNT cabinets. Funny enough, a Pizza Hut that my family frequented when I was a kid (37 now), about a mile distance from this place; they just so happened to have those cabinets as well... Most likely a coincidence or the owner has my same backstory, but maybe it's those very same machines. I'll have to check it out and ask the owner. But if the sticks or any other part of the machine aren't in good condition, I'm gonna (cordially) take it up with them. Not like it'll make a difference, but at least they'll know a local never forgot.

[@Peremptor]

Back in the 90s I was a big fan of the 360 degree sticks that had no friction and used infrared sensors to register inputs.... wouldn't mind having one of those to screw around with nowadays.

[@AmartharDrakestone]

That was the Happ Perfect 360 Electronic Joystick. Nowadays you have two options for that style. Either the Ultimarc UltraStik 360 or the Paradise Arcade Magenta. Both use Hall effect for operation.

[@Peremptor]

@@AmartharDrakestone From what I understand having a square gate to lock in inputs is better for fighters but in the mid to late 90s all the 'good' arcades had these 360s... in southern california at least.

[@AmartharDrakestone]

@@Peremptor Gates are better if you're learning moves as they help guide you, but nowadays pro players will tell you to NOT ride the gate when doing motion inputs. That's also why Korean sticks are so popular. They don't have restrictor gates.

[@Peremptor]

@@AmartharDrakestone Never used Korean... just American and Japanese style sticks. Would have to try them out supposedly they are the best for Tekken.

[@_IHH_]

Excellent video, as usual. Thanks for presenting this stick in such depth, it was really interesting. However, the price of a MAS is definitely prohibitive, especially when it compared with Japanese products : in the same price range, there's just no comparison.

[@TheElectricUnderground]

Yes it's definitely an enthusiast product because right now the used stick market is impossible to compete with. You can get extremely high quality sticks for cheap on ebay from the thousands of wanna be fighting game players who bought the sticks new and never used them lol. Meanwhile my poor lever has seen literally thousands of hours of use.

[@sigriston]

What I used to hear is some people preferred American-style lever for MvC 2. I never really got into that game but I think people like this type of lever because of the fast return to neutral on release (snappy inputs like you said on GG/anime instant air dashes).

[@DEERF0RCE]

MvC2 cabs had magnetic or optical sticks that did not use microswitches. I do not believe they are Happ, but another manufacturer. The sticks looked like Happ, but were not clicky, they were silent. They also had a round gate with no corner stops. MAS used them in the MvC2 tournament era when the glove became a thing if memory serves me. I have not seen one irl for at least 20 years though.

[@TheElectricUnderground]

yep that makes a ton of sense! for games with a lot of motion inputs like mvc2, I could see american lever being really solid.

[@sigriston]

@@DEERF0RCE I heard about those a while ago, might have seen them listed (as sold out) in an arcade parts shop some ~15 years ago when I was building a stick. That sounds cool - optical switches. Wonder how durable they were… 😺

[@sigriston]

@@TheElectricUnderground yeah it might be good. Though not for me - I only play SF and KOF occasionally and I can only play on a JLF. Too many years of muscle memory to fight against 😸

[@lit_wick]

I have Korean levers for tekken. I have Japanese levers for all my other sticks. And I put American sticks in my arcade 1up cabs. Absolutely love American sticks, they feel like the arcades did. Japanese sticks and buttons feel like "the modern" era, to me. Even barcades these days use all sanwa (not complaining). It makes my "arcade corner" of two arcade1ups feel like the childhood barbershop arcade.

[@reiul9787]

Also spanish Industrias Lorenzo as you say. I love IL magnetic , it has strong tension and short movement, and feel solid . It depends what you want to feel, I personally like it string feeling.

[@TheElectricUnderground]

yeah that is really funny that the dominant American stick these days is actually european-made ha. I think it would still count as "american" in that it uses the same design philosophy, sort of how an american can make a euroshmup, even though the USA is not european obviously. It's design philosophy more than actual region of origin if that makes sense.

[@999samus7]

10:56 keyboard enthusiasts having nightmares with the ping

[@realmchat6665]

Great video, informative as usual. For me a Sanwa jlf with a 2lb spring (default is 1lb), and a slightly oversized actuator (eliminates any dead zone around center neutral) is perfect, works well for 2d fighters and shmups. Those 2 mods only cost a few bucks.

[@TheElectricUnderground]

yep the jlf is a fantastic all around lever, especially with how accessible it is. also the amount of jlf mods out there these days is crazy lol.

[@theconsolekiller7113]

Great breakdown. Never liked american sticks back in the arcade days, compared to a pad, but I was also mainly a console player. Once I tried Japanese levers I had no desire to go back to the rigid, high spring tension of the American levers. I mostly use my modded sticks for shooters, 2D action games, and only occasionally on fighting games. Even with most of my modded Japanese sticks I notice that kick back you mentioned. If I release the stick and let it return back it will sometimes hit the opposing direction's input, which can be problematic for some platformers. Not as big of a deal in a shooter where you can quickly correct your movement, or a fighting game like Street Fighter, but 3D fighters may be different.

[@TheElectricUnderground]

that's an interesting connection because I get the feeling that pad players will actually connect with a japanese stick more than a usa/korean stick, due to on japanese stick it has a shorter throw so you guide and move the stick with your thumb a lot, just like on pad. Whereas with usa/korean you use your arm and hand more to slap the stick around to get the inputs ha.

[@theconsolekiller7113]

Nice. I noticed when you showed the Korean stick that it seems like you almost have to put it back in neutral manually, like it almost flops around. Looks interesting. I can see how that would take time to adjust to. Yea the japanese sticks are just so low tension and easy to move around, so thats probably why it felt pretty natural almost immediately.@@TheElectricUnderground

[@retronaut8864]

I know that we call them “American sticks” because that’s what we got, and most of our machines, particularly the fighting game machines. That’s what you would find in a dynamo cabinet from the 90s. But I mean, we are talking about HAPP sticks made by industrias Lorenzo of the UK. So my point is, can’t we blame Britain for this? Lol.

[@MrSiddharth21]

Shmup fest tomorrow on steam. Will you make a new recommendation video?

[@TheElectricUnderground]

you know I actually might! I need to update my shmup steam list vid ha.

[@boringinu2077]

As stick seller in Taiwan sometimes customer want 「cuba stick」, i believe that is America stick , so i can confirmed there some america stick believer in Taiwan. But the only thing is america stick is super hard to find one , eventual they will pick ls-32 instead.

[@junmendero5396]

Back in the day, here in the Philippines, the most common levers were Chinese clones of Happ levers. They were made by Zippy so they used Zippy switches and had much lighter springs. I actually managed to get a MAS stick here and I found that I preferred the Zippy lol. But even then I always preferred the Japanese levers in the Astro/Aeros to either of these. I still have the MAS and i still don't like it haha

[@TheElectricUnderground]

oh that's so interesting! It's crazy to think all these different regions we don't usually discuss, like the Philippines, have their own levers and hardware as well. Now I'm curious to see how a zippy would compare with the Lorenzo that I tried in this vid. I think having a bit of a lighter tension would be a good thing.

[@junmendero5396]

I don't think Zippy levers or even switches are still manufactured, but there are other Chinese clones that I've never tried. Essentially they just have different switches and springs, the other parts are exact clones as far as I can remember!

[@tigheklory]

OK first thing, the sticks you call American are actually from Spain. The iL (Industrias Lorenzo) EuroStick, which is one of the best joysticks ever for fighting games. A Sanwa JLF stick is only really decent if it has a circular restrictor gate or you are going to have a lot of fatigue frome extended play. If you use a square gate it will limit you total speed. I would highly suggest you pick up an IL stick from Paradise Arcade shop if you can, they are super cheap ($16). There is more to the story as back in the 90s HAPP licensed the Eurostick from IL but HAPP switched to cheaper ABS from nylon actuator and shaft sleeve. The MAS stick probably uses the inferior HAPP stick though.

[@tigheklory]

OK I just checked MAS website and they use the IL stick. Oh and you can get IL competition buttons that are convex.

[@TheElectricUnderground]

the IL Lorenzo is from spain, but I would still classify it as an American stick because it follows that design philosophy. The stick is appearing in arcades in the USA after all, while there probably aren't too many arcades in spain. So, It's not actually about the origin of the manufacturing (think how many american products are not actually made in the USA), it's about the design concept. Like if hori started making hayabusa levers in korea, but kept the same japanese lever design, I would not say that the hayabusa lever is korean, it's still a japanese lever because of the design.

[@tigheklory]

​@@TheElectricUnderground I get what you are saying, it's just that the actual design came from Spain originally and HAPP licensed the design back in the day. Also when you talked about the sticks on a TMNT, those are Wico sticks and I agree they aren't great, they have a rubber bellows/grommet that is the "spring" that returns the stick to center, they feel terribly stiff when new and the rubber will tear after a few years of use then they are completely blown out.

[@terrytees]

This video was a detailed breakdown, all points covered, excellent content

[@junglebeatz]

$535 for an arcade stick is absolutely ridiculous

[@PaulHindt]

I made the mistake of using the concave Happ buttons in my first arcade stick build. Never again.

[@IntergalacticApeMan]

I think the old Konami cabinets weren't equipped with japanese levers in the US. If I remember correctly they had Wico sticks, that even had a grommet, which is a reason it's hard to find good old stock today. I'm also in the process of getting back into what used to be western levers, but it's not always easy to find out what was used especially here in Europe if the manual isn't specific (like Gyruss specifies Monroe sticks). I never was a huge fan of the japanese sticks particularly, though I did like the old Neo Geo sticks for the AES for instance. When I started modding my JLF I gave it a 4 pound spring and a larger actuator, then I ended up using 400gf Omron switches, put on a battop and a circular gate, just to find out the New Help Me actually gives me a lot more of what I was looking for in the first place, though I'm using a St-35 grommet. The IL stick I know as Eurostick and it's actually quite cheap, but it it should be what they used to produce for Happ, before they switched to produce in China. Anyway, I like it as bein quite smooth actually using Cherry D44X switches, but lately I've been transitioning to using the Omron switches I had bought for my JLF and I'm still not sure how much I love it. It should be wrong, but being the guy I am, I enjoy having some resistance. I'm using it mainly for UMK3 yet, but it would be intersting to try it on shmups. I'm also still lokking for softer hinged switches btw. for my IL buttons, because even though I still enjoy Cherry D44x on them, I've tried my Omrons and Gersungs and they do have a little something extra I'd like to try in a more comfortable way (all my Omron and Gersung were even to much for me long term). What I found out though is the hinges close a gap between button plunger and switch plunger, so as soon as I can get my hands on them, I'd love to try some 75-125gf hinged Omron switches to see if it allows for a more direct play. I'm also playing convex, except for auxiliaries and Pinball buttons which I prefer concave.

[@UshiMushi]

Building some electronic monstrocity is half the fun imo. But I have been using a Seimitsu LS-32 pretty much exclusively - for fighters and shmups. Wanted to dabble in Korean lever just to see how it feels (plus I won't have to torture people with constant clicking). An American stick never crossed my mind, so this is definitely food for thought. Just wish it was easier to get proper casing.

[@TheElectricUnderground]

yes it is a huge pain to find a case that houses the giant usa stick design lol, that's been a barrier for me as well up until recently. Now that I have this neo case on the way, this is gonna be great to be able to switch out all the parts, as my custom cases are just too beautiful for the internet to appreciate ha.

[@UshiMushi]

haha maybe I'm the minority, but I think a video of your custom electronics could be fun

[@MrBroken030]

0:50 Even as a european fighting game player I alway knew about the MAS sticks! All the MvC2 heads played on them and as you mentioned John Choi. It was kinda funny, in europe everyone is playing on japanese stick, so if you saw someone with a mas at a tournament, you knew, thats an american! :D edit: personally i think the snapback and travelway on those american sticks is too crazy XD

[@tek_lynx4225]

I use happ\IL exclusively for modern fighting games and I made my own cases to fit them. The buttons are better then sanwa for obvious reasons, and the large lever is faster then Sanwa for everything especially if you play charge chars and fighting games with super jump (MVC\GG) you can just flick an American style stick for that due to the insanely strong spring. But you can't get this through to most people as they have been hit by the SANWA FUD by the FGC, and the OEM's have mostly been bought off by SANWA too so you never see US\Euro style sticks in off the shelf fighting sticks and it can never gain traction. And younger people don't have ANY experience with older arcade hardware and do not know how High quality the Feel of a Happ\IL based stick and buttons are, the best they have experienced is sanwa mush buttons and their tiny lever + large deadzone JLF and they think this is the pinnacle of arcade sticks cause of it.

[@wtfdoihavetodohere]

Yes! I love American arcade sticks! They produce very smooth circular motions, have consistent tension and return to neutral quickly and predictably. I've had my eye on Happ and IL sticks for some time but haven't pulled the trigger yet to build something. I'll definitely be checking out these MAZ sticks! Thanks!

[@TheElectricUnderground]

yes something I really discovered while testing the stick out is just how massive the diagonal inputs on this lever are. It's sort of hard to explain, but on a korean or japanese lever, you do tend to need precisely place the stick to get the diagonal, which can make circular motions a bit tricky since you might accidentally skip the diagonal and just hit down and back or down and forward, but on American lever that diagonal is so huge you can't miss it ha. It might be a bit too big to be honest lol.

[@RaamiahMorris]

Great video! And i'm a korean lever user for life...i'm not trading my Etokki arcade stick for anything best arcade stick ever created imo

[@hooksnfangs6006]

BIG OOF! I was once robbed due to a poorly maintained arcade machine. It was a NEO GEO too which made me even more furious! Might be nostalgia, but I always loved the feel of American style sticks and buttons. They're kind of the reason why I felt more at home when I switched to a Korean lever. For the life of me I just can't get used to the typical square gates on Japanese sticks. Some day I'd love to build a, American stick but they're just so beefy!

[@TheElectricUnderground]

exactly hooks, I can't tell you how many broken machines I've lost money to... probably more of those than well maintained machines at this point sadly. Yes I think the difference in feel between the usa+korean stick and Japanese stick is more substantial than people think. Essentially I think if you use USA/Korean stick, you are going to be using your arms and wrists and sort of slapping the lever around ha. Whereas on J stick you use your fingers and hand more to quickly guide the lever. I think both styles are very solid, I just prefer the korean/usa feel more.

[@lunaria_stg]

When I first saw the title, my only thought was "Who are you and what have you done to the real MarkMSX?!" Anyway, after reading the description, I'm looking forward to hearing more!

[@TheElectricUnderground]

Ha yeah don't you worry this will be a fun one

[@NinjaRed5000]

I love the IL joystick, I've been rocking one in my custom stick for years. I've dabbled in Japanese sticks for a while, Sanwa and Hori are too light, but Seimitsu for the most part were closer, but still lighter than IL. However, the Nobi Bullett Lever is the first Seimitsu stick that actually FEELS as good as an IL stick, but with some of the modern changes like shorter throw and an octagonal gate. So nowadays I'd switch between the IL and the Bullett lever. Good stuff. Edit: FUCK YOU DUDE! CONCAVE BUTTONS FOR LIFE!!!

[@999Lucas]

Playing at home all the time really spoiled me over the years. My thumbs used to hurt so bad on dpads. I think having so many machines of my own, i got used to all the different parts i had available, and i think it spoiled me, and ruined going to neighborhood spots and arcades. I love sanwa. I use the short throw bushings and im back and forth between ball and bat and I like the octo gates and the square isnt so bad but i think it pulls to the DF or DB when i go down. Id rather have a feel to where that is. I think MK made a lot of operators not give a shit in america. You had 10 year olds doing cart wheels and cano balls leaning on the levers, and they just started buying whatever the cheapest bullshit out there was. My 2cents anyway. Cheers.

[@wirikidor]

I don't know how I feel about this video. Maybe because I'm older and grew up in the 80's and my teen years were in the depths of the 90's fighters, and everything in my region was HAPP. I collect and restore original arcade machines and having HAPP ultimate bat sticks with concave buttons is important to me because that's what all the machines had. Dynamo cabs with SF2. Midway cabs with Killer Instinct and Mortal Kombat. NeoGeo Big Red. Dynamo showcase cabs with Tekken 2, Tekken 3 and Tekken Tag, all HAPP sticks. Back in the 90s I was easily sidestepping with those sticks in Tekken. I think trying that style stick on modern PS games though is a stretch, as you saw the difference when you were looking at SNK. For a vertical shooter in a candy cab, sure give me a Japanese ball top, but for fighters I have to have a long bat-top. Incidentally, those Konami beam-em-ups (simpsons/tmnt/xmen) came with Wico 8-way leaf switches, so no clicks. The ones in the video though seriously need servicing.

[@theperfectpour]

Back in the Tekken Tag days I had an original MAS stick, which had Happ parts, i replaced the standard heavy spring with Happ's light spring and that stick was great for Tekken.

[@brockjonson]

Well honestly it's because our hands are bigger. We exert more pressure when we do diagonals.

[@OldBadger81]

Whole video on American lever, that's an IL Euro lever....

[@TheElectricUnderground]

yes but it is built and sold as an american style design. The actual country of origin doesn't really matter that much (think of how many american products are made oversees after all lol). There is a funny inverse of this with euroshmups. Where there are a good number of what I would call a euroshmup games that are actually american developers, but again that's because a "euroshmup" is a design philosophy rather than a strict marker of region of origin. Like let's say there is a korean company in the future that makes japanese style levers, would that be a korean stick or a japanese stick? In my view it would be a japanese stick essentially because it follows that design philosophy.

[@OldBadger81]

@@TheElectricUnderground no it wasn't, the design was always European, though the design changed slightly over the years, the original design was by Coin Controls, people just thought it was an American design for years because it's what they found in most wooden or western arcade cabinets in America. It would be the same as calling Sanwa levers American if they had been found in cabs across the US in the same quantity. I guess I just expect people who spread information to try and at least get the information correct.

[@MimosaSTG]

That American button layout makes my metacarpals feel like they are about to shatter... especially with American buttons. I'll be picking up a Scanline City M.A.S. once I finish up this other custom stick. It'll be that last traditional style stick I buy before moving to completely all button layouts.

[@TheElectricUnderground]

oh man agreed, i do not like the straight cut button layout at all. I would HEAVILY recommend you get the NEO version of the MAS stick because you can actually choose your button layout cut, and I agree the Japanese button layout is way better.

[@HUNT3R737]

Almost all the old school Marvel vs Capcom 2 players use American stick. MAS stick is popular

[@DJ239]

I've got an AVP arcade machine with the American stick and I love it. I must admit I have not played fighting games with American stick though.

[@Beavernator]

I never even seen a ball top stick til I was like 20 years old... I'm now 44 and I have never been able to get used to a ball top...

[@basednutter6909]

experienced TOO MANY arcade cabs with broken controls. yes even barcades. alot of these machines are badass but they're just unplayable

[@fatheronfire1979]

I have became a arcade stick junkie I'm going to have to try it 🕹 ️🤔

[@RICHUNCLEPENNYBAGS77]

Biggest problem is finding an enclosure

[@TheElectricUnderground]

No kidding!!!! and it doesn't help that it seems like stick cases are getting smaller and smaller lol. I almost think with a light bit of modding you could perhaps get them to fit in those old xbox 360 hori cases, because they were surprisingly large, but in a current hori stick, no way in hell lol.

[@spidervenom14]

Allfightsticks offers steel enclosures that fit Happ/IL sticks and buttons.

[@johnlund3088]

Great video and great breakdown of IL's o have to of them for my cabinet at home but they quickly got replaced by JLW which imo is the Japanese version of an American lever. Very different feel then the more famous JLW.

[@JohnVmc2]

As a south american KOF player, i never, in my life, used a japanese or korean sick, can't even speak how better (or, perhaps, worst) it may be.

[@filekko5412]

an observation. The joystick actually has a very rigid spring, but it was developed to be played standing up as the idea is to copy the American arcade control panel where everyone plays standing up, so playing with the controller on your lap is not a good idea. Many Ogs play on the floor or use a bench so they can play standing up.

[@Motorcityfool]

Can you recommend a Korean lever that feels closest to an American?

[@therealtombrokaw]

I grew up on american happ sticks and still prefer them. But for modern day I use sanwa but change to a bat top, octo gate and six lb spring since like you said happ parts do not fit into anything modern. I think it is a good facsimile.

[@amerigocosta7452]

Here in Italy the arcade scene has been completely and brutally dead for twenty years now. You might find some light gun or driving games here and there but as far as joystick controlled games it's about impossible. It has been so many years since I last went to an arcade that had actual joystick controlled games that I can't for the life of me remember if we used to have american or japanese style sticks back in the day. I want to say a mix of both.

[@NewGabeOrder]

I've wanted to get into American-style levers, but I plan to get one if my budget is too tight for a Sanwa JLF. Regarding American-style levers, I also plan to use those or the Sanwa JLW if I ever make a hybrid arcade stick that combines the lever and hitbox movement buttons just in case I want to play the Super Smash Bros. games. Reason being is that the Sanwa JLF uses one common ground that may not work when soldered to one of the analog potentiometer grounds. With the Sanwa JLW or or the Happ levers, I can use each direction's ground harnesses to assign it to the correct analog potentiometer grounds to allow 4 or 8 way movement.

[@VEGANVANIA]

In 2024, we shouldn't really describe something manufactured in Barcelona as "American"... I.L. sticks are manufactured in a suburb of Barcelona, Spain...

[@Gonzalo0079]

American? Industrias Lorenzo are AFAIK a spanish product. Those bat tops where also the standard in European cabinets in the eighties and early nineties, not only in America. More than an "american stick" I´d call it a "Euro stick". Always cool with arcade stick reviews BTW! Keep it up with the great work!

[@TheElectricUnderground]

Ha the truth comes out, it's a EUROstick?! I feel absolutely tricked lol. It's in the tradition of American stick design at least.

[@Lupo32]

Funny thing was I wanted to make 3-D printed arcade sticks that use IL joystick and buttons . Edit * i just recently bought a IL joystick and buttons

[@YASKY3035]

Choi looks funny sitting on the floor looking like a dog wearing a muzzle.

[@TheElectricUnderground]

yes I think it's a bit odd, and I have sat on the floor for years while playing games ha. In my case though this was sort of necessary as I didn't have room for a chair in my tiny shed (finally made room for one recently), but at a tournament I'm not sure why he doesn't drag around a little table with him or something. Maybe it's like a signature choice that throws your opponent off a bit

[@LodanZark]

I though Happ was based in the IL (Industrias Lorenzo), shouldn't be called Spanish Stick? xD

[@SharifSourour]

I think the old Japanese stick when not SNK, was more or less the same as American stick. I prefer this personally.

[@nicklong27]

I haven't tried Korean sticks. I know Happ sticks well from the Arcades and at home I have Sanwa and Seimitsu. Maybe a hipster choice bt my favorite seems to be the short throw Seimitsu sticks.

[@TheElectricUnderground]

you can't go wrong with a seimitsu, they are just overall extremely well made and refined. I personally prefer the k sticks because I like to use my wrists and arms more, rather than my hands and fingers, but there is no doubt that the seimitsu sticks are top tier.

[@Nimrod336]

I don't get why not every arcade machine in America wouldn't have just a sanwa stick in it... the sanwa ty8 is like 13$ the clone is actually really good and it's only like 10$

[@rafresendenrafresenden.1644]

so american bad? got it!

[@TheElectricUnderground]

well if you go to an american arcade, those levers are going to be probably a hot mess, since they opt for the cheaper parts and never maintain them sadly. The IL Lorenzo is pretty solid though, not top tier but about as good as a standard JLF, which is much better than USA sticks of the past, that's for sure ha.

[@Voodoo_monk]

the IL stick is still my preference for gaming. the Sanwa JLF is great for the nostalgic real feel.... IL all the way.

[@inakilbss]

i've had good and bad experiences with western arcades in the wild i went to a full on arcade place when i was in the us and i don't remember the parts feeling sloppy even on the mame cabs, they clearly cared further down the dedication scale there's two afternoon bars in spain, they had pandora based cabs and in both cases the feeling was decent, though my taste is still very japanese as those didn't feel precise enough for the dodges i wanted to make thankfully, i've only had one truly bad experience, a cocktail bar with a rare cab (around 15 in existence, all in spain afaik) whose stick was so unresponsive the game was competely unplayable, later they stopped even turning on the game and moved it to a more secluded corner, and it's still sitting there as decoration

[@Hanedan1912]

This is best version of arcade stick

[@scottpilgrim2]

How would the Razer Kitsune compare for you I do wonder. @Razer send this man a Kitsune.

[@TheElectricUnderground]

oh that's really interesting, i just looked it up based on your comment. To me it looks like it's their version of a hitbox style leverless. So my feelings on Razer are a bit mixed where I think they make some quality pc parts (i still use my razor mouse 8 years later ha), but their initial batch of arcade sticks back in the day had a lot of issues lol. I bet these days though they have probably really improved their designs, so it's probably a really solid alternative to a hitbox. So yeah, if you want leverless, I could see razer being an interesting option. I hate how thin that box is lol, but i think the idea is for it to try to replicate a keyboard, rather than an arcade cabinet. So yeah, seems cool to me as long as it doesn't break on you lol.

[@scottpilgrim2]

@@TheElectricUnderground Yeah exactly and it will last since i only play shmup and fighting games occasionally :)

[@freewilliam93]

Screw stiff springs

[@TheElectricUnderground]

yes agreed. I'm going to try to mod this lever by dropping the tension and shortening the throw a bit, which me luck lol.

[@PitH0und]

All the barcades I went to back in the states had absolute garbage for selection. The majority of the machines were all ticket spitter games and maybe a lone DDR machine.

[@GhibliNova]

*with power steering. xD Power steering takes away tire feel by putting a middle man between what's happening to the tires and your hands, whether the middle man be gears and hydraulics, or a computer and wires.

[@TheElectricUnderground]

you probably know a lot more about cars than I do ha. I just remember my dad had a truck without power steering for a while and I had to yank that sucker like crazy to get it to move or turn.

[@GhibliNova]

@@TheElectricUnderground yeah some of those order truck had really wide gearing to make it easier to turn, but as a result didn't move much with slight degree changes 😂

[@corbinallen4562]

I remember hearing rumors that american levers were better for marvel. But idk if that is just a rumor or if its true. From what i know it has something to do with super jumps.

[@jasonmartinez5116]

iirc that is true on Marvel 2, especially with the Wico/Happ Perfect 360

[@jaykelley103]

You gonna make a video on the steam shmupfest shit show? There arent very many actual shmups on it, mainly just vampire survivor clones and twin sticks. Absolutely egregious

[@TheElectricUnderground]

Yes I am ha

[@justsayin4632]

Great vid! Comparing new for new, I don’t get all the hate iL sticks get. I restored an SFII Hyper Fighting Z-back cab and wanted it all original, so I went with iL sticks and (GASP) concave buttons. Never felt like the inputs were hampered in any way. BUT, I will admit, I’ve already had to change one of the iL sticks after only 3 years of vigorous use, while my fight sticks for consoles are still chugging along with their original sticks. Now I’m curious to try some shooters with American style sticks as I’ve only ever played them on the out of the box JLFs that come with most fight sticks.

[@iDX1701]

I get needing to read a script (you are very natural while reading it though) but the way your eyes are pointed elsewhere makes it look like I’m watching a blind guy

[@ryanbailey6900]

I always liked the Happ joystick. I had a neo geo mvs with strikers 1945 plus and I got a 1cc using that stick.

[@11Eighty6]

brah look at the damn camera when your talking. its weird watching and your looking and talking at your monitor

[@FhargaZ]

I installed an Industrias Lorenzo euro 2 on my arcadw cabinet years ago and it was a big change from the oeiginal X-arcade 😂.

[@FuckOffGetShot]

American levers are goats, SUZO/il Eurostick/eurojoy etc are fantastic for 2d fighters, highly recommend a sanwa JLW (imagine an american lever designed by sanwa). also highly recommend a crown/samducksa 305, imagine if a full collar klever and a eurostick had a baby

[@TheElectricUnderground]

yeah I was actually thinking about how I would mod this Lorenzo stick while making the video (which I will likely attempt ha). The two mods that sound interesting would be to drop the spring tenstion (i think it's a bit too high) and then making some kind of collar for it to reduce the throw a tad.

[@PedroFerreira-sx2gd]

Being from a small europea. country were arcades in general had bad maintance and no one gives a damn . I once rennembered inserting a coin in a lightgun and when i started playing the aim was badly calibrated (many centineters away from the target). Complained to the owner and he did not give a dam. Joysticks in arcades were buillt to have longevity and not precision. Fortunaly i knew a small place that cared , and was a night to day difference. In fact the place was crowded because of that and was close to a big arcade that made less money. The first time i tryed japanese sticks was hard to me do adapt , specially the ball top. But bot, once i get used was great. Unfortunaly i have to buy a premade full joystick (in my case madcatz sf4 te) and can t be experimental. There are no places to buy parts, and i have to order from other countries and pay big taxes and shipping. But people neglect tbe most portant thing, more important than having a good joystick, is having skill. I have a friend that had a awfull x-arcade controller and would beat me always me when i played with madcatz in fighting games. But then again i am not big fan of fighting games ,played more for social reasons

[@IntergalacticApeMan]

Smallcab in France is quite affordable

[@Skelta75]

I use my mortal kombat pdp arcade stick with AVP and SamSho2 and I love it! The stick is seriously huge though😅

[@TheElectricUnderground]

that's awesome lol!!! if you aren't playing MK on an american stick, it's just wrong ha. Also I am a big fan of ultimate mk3, the original american kusofighter

[@ty_wilkins]

What is the song that you use in your outtro? It is MESMERIZING!

[@burningknuckle26]

grew up with amer stick