Amp/Cab Sim and Pre-amps - Does Signal Chain Matter?

[@strumlord]

Just came to thank you for your article. Ampless boards were just meh for me until you suggested a preamp pedal. After I added that I was all in. Total game changer. Thanks for sharing your insights. Much appreciated.

[@GoodwoodAudio]

thanks for the feedback! Really appreciate it!

[@deonknipecbr11156]

That overdrive to preamp to amp sim tone is amazing

[@GoodwoodAudio]

Big difference eh? really helps.

[@TylerJameson63]

Putting wet effects after the iridium or any sim is basically the same as studio sound. Also I feel like running them into an amp there’s always going to be a form of compression, but having them after the amp it actually opens up more and you don’t have to use as much. It’s almost like driving up a large elevation like a mountain and popping your ears. You go oh I didn’t know I was missing this many frequencies.

[@GoodwoodAudio]

Cool analogy! Love that.

[@patricktherrien3210]

This is timely: I just recently put my wet effects after my amp sim. I really thought I couldn’t- that I would need a speaker sim (or something) after the effects. It sounds great and now I’m really exploring stereo for the first time so the lesson here is- don’t be afraid to experiment. Would have loved to see this video about three months ago. 😘

[@GoodwoodAudio]

Totally agree.. I still catch myself not 'breaking the rules' with signal chain. Often I find I like the way I've always done it, but every once in a while you find a gem.

[@alonsofabresgrez7998]

Thanks, man! I was looking for this answer for hours!

[@earththingschannel7753]

love the video, explanation, and the sound sample you made. just what i need

[@GoodwoodAudio]

THanks for checking it out!

[@PJmusica]

I have a supro Delta 8, and a peddle board, I just got it, will I need to use an amp simulator before going into my mixing console, when recording, or can I go straight into the mixing console from the back of the supro without an amp simulator?

[@GoodwoodAudio]

great question. They say you can go direct into your DAW but a cab sim would go a long way in this instance. You don't need an amp sim, but the cab sim only would be great to take the place of the mic'd speaker (that you are now bypassing with the line out). So you could go direct into your DAW, but then put a cab sim patch OR get two notes cab sim as an example / GFI Cab Zeus etc before hitting the DAW. I'd experiment with direct / digital cab sim before buying hardware and see what you think.

[@NickBifano]

I’ve always wondered about buffers with amp sims. Do you need one at the end of the chain still? None at all? Only on the input of the chain? Thoughts

[@GoodwoodAudio]

This is a BIG can of worms. Ask 10 people and they will all tell you something different. My suggestion is generally the same... Try them all and see what you like. A good starting point though - put a buffer as early in your chain as you can and go from there.

[@uptownphotography]

Excellent video and very well explained... Thanks for the details you shared. I happened to exchange IM messages (yesterday on 9-15-22) with Chippo from your website on a similar subject trying to get a modeler pedal to sound good for recording. I mentioned both my friend's Line 6 PodGo and my Valeton GP-200, both did not sound good going into an Allen Heath GL2400 desk. Yet, many videos on the two units sounded really great. A mystery. I am going to try recording directly into the interface via USB tomorrow and also try running the modeler pedal outputs into an external API clone pre amp (or a Neve clone) and see if that helps. Right now both units sound really bad and not usable. There has to be a solution. Chippo was very helpful and spent quite a bit of time with me, which I really appreciated. Thanks. Phil NYC Area

[@GoodwoodAudio]

Hey Phil. Thanks for checking it out. Chippo is the best! Hope you guys have come up with a decent solution moving forward!

[@uptownphotography]

@@GoodwoodAudio Thanks a lot for the reply. One day I hope to make it to Sydney...Looks great there and a fun place, I'm sure. Phil NYC Area

[@BipityBopity93]

I tried both wet fx before and after Iridium. I ended up putting wet (delay and verb) after Iridium. I feel like it acts somewhat like an FX loop on an amp. One thing I’ve noticed is that my reverb doesn’t get super washed out on some settings I have. I typically run a decent amount of verb and running the verb after the Iridium adds a little more focus on the verb. I personally liked it. Just have to work a little extra to get that washed out vibe I like sometimes. It is very true about clipping the wet FX though. I noticed as soon as I turned on verb my interface would start clipping because the Iridium acted as a boost into the verb and delay. Just takes some time to tweak and get it just right.

[@BipityBopity93]

Oh also, I put my chorus and vibrato before iridium.

[@GoodwoodAudio]

Interesting! Its a subtle difference, but if you take a close listen, you can definitely hear it. Thanks for sharing.

[@stephenbenham5862]

Great info! Do you put the amp sim before or after the bass interfacer?

[@GoodwoodAudio]

Great question. Totally depends on your rig / preferences. Both can work really well! If you want it on both channels you could put it last in your clean chain and make sure the internal DIPs are set for "Clean Feeds FX" OR you can put it after the Interfacer and Sum both channels out of the clean out... Both worth trying.

[@aldrinclementina4297]

Hi there. I know this is an old video. I play at the church. My chain is as follow. Tuner-Compressor- Drives- Amp sim- Delay- Reverb. This all goes via a D.I box to the mixer all the way in the back. I'm adding one or two off these pedals soon to the chain. A chorus, another delay, maybe a mini POC and/ or a clean boost pedal. Thanks in advance for your answer.

[@GoodwoodAudio]

Hey Aldrin. Are you just asking what signal chain might work for you? If so - I have a starting point but would suggest you trying a few different options as it always differs between musos. Try: Tuner - Comp - Drives - Boost - Amp Sim - Chorus - Delays - Reverb - Mixer/FOH

[@atarijam]

Interesting video. However in most live situations you would need to have XLR out (D. I.) to go from your gear to a mixing board. In that case usually cab sims have XLR out as opposed to reverb/delay effects. What do you recommend in thst case? Getting a di box or having cab sim at the end?

[@GoodwoodAudio]

Great point. Amb/Cab sims seem to be hit or miss for balanced out these days. Strymon, Walrus etc are unbalanced where Line6, Two notes etc have balanced options. I recommend either Longline (a product we make), DISO+, a DI etc. Most players would have a DI available at the venue which keeps things simple enough or a 1/4" input at home.

[@tellstarrsixtwo7120]

I wanted to use a cab sim pedal with my gain pedals that don't really sound nice with my VOX Pathfinder 10 amp (especially high gain), but without using an interface, just keep the (clean) amp in the signal chain. So a signal chain like this : Compressor --> Distortion --> Cabsim --> rest of pedalboard --> AMP (clean channel) Is there any harm I could do to the amp and any idea how it could sound ^^ ?

[@GoodwoodAudio]

I get a similar question quite often. Cab Sims / Amps aren't designed to be used together but in theory theres no reason you can't assuming your cab sim is outputting instrument level/unbalanced signal. Some cab sims can get pretty loud (line level loud) so I would just make sure you're amp is very low when you plug in to make sure you aren't going to get a huge volume spike. Also, if you can lower the gain on the cabsim, that will make sure your wet effects don't clip from having too much level on their inputs. Other than that - I'd say give it a shot and see what sounds you can come up with.

[@tellstarrsixtwo7120]

@@GoodwoodAudio Can't think of another way to "remodel" the sound of gain pedals, so I gonna try it if there is no danger for the amp. Have to get an interface for recording anyway, but wanted to keep the warm clean tones of my amp when not using gain. So maybe if the combination isnt working, I gonna play clean with my amp and gain stuff through the interface, playing most of the time with headphones anyway. Only afraid that I might lose dynamics when turning the volume low on the amp. Fun fact : I wanted to post a nice article about this topic, but I bet you already know it :D goodwoodaudio.com/blogs/news/make-your-amp-simulator-sound-even-better-by-doing-this Thanks for the help and input. I will consider your ideas and hopefully only be half deaf after it ;)

[@GoodwoodAudio]

@@tellstarrsixtwo7120 haha - best of luck on the quest!

[@kyiaaaaa]

Hi, if i have comp+overdrive+chorus+delay+reverb. Where can i put my preamp pedal?

[@GoodwoodAudio]

Totally depends on your rig BUT, I'd try two different places and see what one works better for you... 1: Comp - Preamp - Overdrive.... 2: Overdrive - Preamp - Chorus.... If you use amp sim, I'd recommend after overdrive, if you don't use amp sim both will work quite well.

[@nayaleezy]

do signal chains go left to right in Australia? 🤔

[@GoodwoodAudio]

of course... isn't that how it is for everyone else? Your toilets flush counter clockwise too right?

[@robbybrown5941]

Any thoughts on the DSM Humboldt/Noisemaker Simplifier Amp and Cab Sim? It has the built-in effects loop which seems to solve alot of the problems with where to put your wet effects.

[@GoodwoodAudio]

I've heard pretty good things about it actually. I haven't personally used one yet, but its been on a couple of customers boards and they all seem to really enjoy it. From what I've talked with them about it seems to go back and forth between the Iridium and Simplifier.... The one thing Iridium has on it - super simple to use. Its not intimidating to look at and is familiar in its layout like many other pedals. I am really excited to get my hands on a simplifier though because it looks like a well thought out product.

[@osamabushdemolition]

Question, i ‘ve never used a cab simulator in my amp.. for experiment purpose , wheres better to connect, effect loop or front of the amp? I’ ve been playing for many years but never experiment with that

[@GoodwoodAudio]

I would try both. Connect your FX loop before your mod / wet effects - send to mod/wet effects - cab sim - FOH OR run mod/wet effects - amp input - FX send - Cab sim. Just make sure your speaker still has a load on it or you could damage your amp (in all scenarios).

[@osamabushdemolition]

Thanks 🙃

[@AaandreSevenfold]

yo this is highly informative. thank you very much

[@cfibanez]

Thanks for this video. I run the Iridium with stereo inputs and would be keen to try a preamp in front. Kingsley's Squire is a great option, alas only mono. What would you recommend in terms of stereo preamps for such application? Thanks.

[@GoodwoodAudio]

Are you running the Iridium last? I assume you are or else you could just run a mono pre-amp before Iridium and let Iridium split to stereo. Assuming Iridium is last, run the pre-amp after your last dry effect (before your stereo wet / mod effects). This will have a good result as well if you don't want to run Iridium in the middle of your chain.

[@DirtyGuitar]

Would it be a good idea to insert the cab sim into the signal path of one channel on the mixer (channel insert) in order to benefit from the mixer preamp?

[@GoodwoodAudio]

It's worth a shot! I'd try both and see what you like better / what FOH likes better. Depending on the pre it might sound awesome!

[@uniteapart7462]

I have the Squire preamp with the POD Go and there’s a hiss, I have it just before the units simulator. It’s in the effects loop that’s movable to any section on the signal chain. Is the hiss unavoidable? Thanks

[@GoodwoodAudio]

It's hard to say. I'd do some troubleshooting... Turn the squire off, check hiss levels, try another pedal instead of squire, check hiss levels... It's possible the POD is getting too much level or the FX loop is just noisy or any other number of things. I'd also check power - is the squire isolated from the POD etc. Lot's of things you can try!

[@Samuel.Lane32]

Any recommendations on the best pre-amp to get to put before the UA Ruby? The Ruby is in the middle of my chain.

[@joshualee9534]

Thank you Goodwood Audio! A quick question: If I want to put Iridium at the end of the chain and the pre amp pedal in the middle of the chain, do I put it after or before the volume pedal? My current setting is: compressor --> overdrive--> volume pedal --> wet effects--> Iridium.

[@GoodwoodAudio]

I would try both and see what you like. Depending where the volume is at, they will both sound different. Start by trying pre-volume, then flip it... volume-pre. Theres no 'wrong' answer...just preference.

[@joshualee9534]

@@GoodwoodAudio you are the best!!

[@daejumong4386]

Hi, if I only need to choose one which is more essential to the pedalboard that will go well with an overdrive & distortion pedal, is it the cabinet simulator or an amp simulator? Also, do both sim need a DI pedal? Sorry, I'm still a newbie on the pedal world. Thank you.

[@GoodwoodAudio]

Sorry, for some reason I wasn't notified of comments anymore. That's tricky...probably a cab sim as they often come with power amp simulation as well...this means you can use one of your overdrives as an always on 'preamp'... even though it most likely isn't one. Ideally you'd have an amp and cab sim, but if you had to choose one, I'd go that route.

[@daejumong4386]

​@@GoodwoodAudio No prob bro, thanks so much for your reply. I really appreciate it. More power to your channel 🙂👍

[@paolo-1283]

What happens if you turn off the cab sim on irridium and just use the amp sim; then add a cab sim pedal at the end of the chain?

[@GoodwoodAudio]

you could do that too!

[@ChristoHargreaves]

Can I run my amp sim in the effects loop of my amp if I am running clean ?

[@GoodwoodAudio]

not advised, no. There's really no benefit to this since you're already using an amplifier in this example... Amp sims don't sound great running into actual amps

[@rickysanchezg2100]

If I want to used the iridium at the end what place do you suggest for the pre-amp, before or after the drives?

[@GoodwoodAudio]

Definitely after drives. You want it to be the last 'gain' before wet effects.

[@rickysanchezg2100]

Goodwood Audio great, I would do it like that... Thanks!

[@tilleyroadaffairproduction6752]

Thank you for this nice video. I am struggling right now, with getting sound out of my stereo pedals and into the Interface. I put the Iridium between a Boss Trem and the El Capistan and I am mono out to Dig and then Stereo out to Immerse, Big sky and Boomerang Looper going into 2 recording tracks in interface. Everything was working fine until I put the Iridium in the middle... My guitar goes into Boss tuner, then TC comp, EH Soul food, Sud and up then volume pedal (Morley) and into trem. I am trying to understand the fonction of the Iridium as a Amp Sim but I must be missing something. Maybe I can't do a stereo sound this way???

[@GoodwoodAudio]

If Iridium is in your mono signal chain (between boss trem and mono into El Cap), I don't see how this could cause an issue. Are you trying to go stereo into El Cap by chance?

[@tilleyroadaffairproduction6752]

@@GoodwoodAudio Hi there, thanks for the response. I found a friend who walked me through the signal and I got it going, I think it was a bad patch cable! I am so happy with this little piece of true magic... Iridium is a real game changer!

[@snigzilla7155]

Thank you for this video!!! 🙌🏽

[@GoodwoodAudio]

Thanks for watching! Glad it was helpful in one way or another!

[@TroelJones]

hey if i have a preamp pedal not a simulator would i put that at the end of the chain

[@GoodwoodAudio]

totally up to you. I'd experiment with it very early in your chain, after your last dry effect and you could also try it after your last wet effect as well. All will have different results depending on what you're after. In teh middle of the chain tends to be a good spot if you're using it with an amp sim.

[@mSarimaa]

Would be interesting to see the difference with wet effects placement if actually using amp gain a bit more, or boosting the amp sim significantly from the OD’s.

[@GoodwoodAudio]

Agreed! Very good point. Part 2 perhaps?!

[@cfibanez]

There are a number of vids testing Iridium with gain before and after delays and reverbs. In that situation, Iridium after delays gives a really muddy sound. Most people agree that iridium with higher gain should be placed before delays and reverbs.

[@kristobalsanchez8188]

if im direct to mixer, there is no need to use the 4 cable method?

[@GoodwoodAudio]

less of a need...but you can still 'replicate' it a bit by putting your amp sim before modulation and wet effects (I'd experiment with it to see hwat you like better)

[@Shockwave_jon]

I go Tuner>drives> leclean preamp > effect loop to verbs and delay > into cab M amp sim.

[@GoodwoodAudio]

Nice! thats your preferred way to run it? Have you tried everything before wet effects and everything after wet effects? Sounds like you've got a good setup going on.

[@visiblenergy]

I'm gona try this.

[@mailbox451]

the best sound on 0:46

[@Kanyunyer]

Please help me arrange this. Tuner, amp simulator, delay, chorus, acoustic simulayor, ultimate drive, reverb. Tnx in advance

[@Zan_Halford]

Can you recommend a few (true) pre-amp pedals that you have played and verified work with amp sims? I have the ACS1.

[@GoodwoodAudio]

I can honestly say, I don't have enough of a catalogue of pre-amp pedal experience to give you an incredible list. I've messed around with boost pedals, RC booster, Squire, random overdrives I've had laying around etc, but I don't have a huge list of pre-amps to give you. I'd honestly start with any low gain pedals you'd be happy to leave on all the time, place it right after your last dry pedal and see what the results are.

[@Zan_Halford]

@@GoodwoodAudio right now I have the xotic super sweet boost but it’s one of the first pedals in the chain, so it’s the first of the dry pedals. I had it prior to create the eq for the dry pedals, rather than a volume jump, but maybe I’m under thinking it. The use of a clean circuit at the end of dry pedals is for consistent signal, and maybe more valuable than eq from the early chain position? Maybe it still can eq at end of dry pedals, much like the way we run pedals into a preamp section of an amp?

[@GoodwoodAudio]

@@Zan_Halford EQ position is also up for grabs... but EQ after drives I think is a great idea. Similar to where an amps pre-amp would go / EQ your sound. Honestly with this, I would probably start at the end of the dry pedals, see what you think, then before...compare. Both are valid depending on the approach you're taking.

[@Zan_Halford]

Is there a way to tell what pedals could get clipped if I moved my ACS1 from the end of my chain to before my wet section? I just saw a guy with it this way, ending with the canvas studio DI/LI and I’m intrigued. Is the sound that different to be inconvenienced by the loss of the headphone jack?

[@GoodwoodAudio]

@@Zan_Halford with ACS1 I didnt notice as much of a difference, but there still is one (I noticed an improvement more with Iridium...might just be my ears though). Generally pedals that aren't designed to be used with line level (boss pedals tend to be a culprit for clipping). But you can always slightly lower the ACS1 output to suit since Canvas / Longline / DISO will all retail signal level (unlike a DI).

[@냠냠응가]

very helpful thanks!

[@172T8]

Forget signal chain. I wanna know what products you use on your hair.

[@GoodwoodAudio]

Axle grease.

[@patrickhlavinka6364]

What about running an EQ before versus after?

[@GoodwoodAudio]

good question. A bit of personal taste here.. Some people like EQ early in the chain (before drive pedals) some after the last dry effect before modulation / amp sim / amp input, others after amp sim. Totally depends. I'd experiment. After the last dry effect, before the amp sim / modulation is probably the most common though.

[@orpheus1340]

The amp sim before the modulation sounded muddier, messier, so I prefer it at the end in your demo.

[@deonknipecbr11156]

I prefer running my amp sim (sansamp gt2) into stereo delays and reverb, but now I want get a cab sim, do I have to get two and put them at then end of my signal chain?

[@GoodwoodAudio]

Nope! Just get one thats stereo capable. Quite a few these days are - including the Iridium.

[@justabout30something]

Please do something like this for the Simplifier 👍

[@GoodwoodAudio]

I'll see what I can do...

[@tioposer]

I was wondering my self the same. Lovely swiss knife pedal output solver too

[@michaeltaveras23]

Thank you!

[@pacoruizserrano]

Best video!

[@SmokinFoolz]

SUBSCRIBED!!

[@GoodwoodAudio]

yes!

[@Chyappology]

The name of preamp ?

[@GoodwoodAudio]

The one I use / love is the Kingsley Squire. But honestly, any clean OD / EQ pedal / Preamp style pedal will be better than nothing (assuming you like how it sounds)

[@GoodwoodAudio]

I've had a few customers use something like an RC Booster. Super cheap, sounds amazing, quality pedal.

[@juan_de_laura3041]

👏🙌🔥👍

[@guitarizt68]

This was nothing more than a plug for one of the components used.

[@GoodwoodAudio]

I didn't have any sponsors for this... just came across it in my shop and thought people might like to know!