AMWDW: Buc on Fluttershy's Virtue and Discord's Reformation

[@TheBlueSunil]

I always love these little things!!! They are so well thought out!!

[@jshadowhunter]

I rest my case: "With Clarity, all Doubts perish." Once again you did an amazing job there, Doc. =)

[@NaviDoodlez]

it's the episode that really epitomizes why fluttershy is my favorite pony. not for the simple reasons that she is cute and moe, but that she is the most morally strong of the cast and was willing to keep her word even though everything was against her, believing in her kindness the entire time. fluttershy's morality and willingness to see the good in others is something that too many people do not hold valuable anymore, but i think is one of the most important things in life

[@Chinchillax1]

I've been trying to go through your backlog of awesome videos, Dr Wolf. And I just gotta say that this one is my favorite of the ones I've watched so far. The comparison between "A Christmas Carol" to "Keep Calm and Flutter On" helped me see that episode from a very different perspective.

[@DRWolf001]

Glad to hear it Chinchillax. It is nice to know that my videos are helping others to see things from a new perspective.

[@TS2dethmonkey]

Good video. Reformation of villains is always a tough thing to pull off correctly. I like those parallels you drew to the Christmas Carol.

[@ytsejam58]

-deep breath- it's good to be helping. I love that feeling when I talk to a friend and I legitimately feel like I helped them.

[@dynowolf345]

i think discord really felt alone at that moment when, he saw fluttershy about to give up on him. and when he makes that realization, he finally realizes that friendship is something he CAN have and SHOULD cherish.

[@SleepingSilentBelle]

I think the reason that the episode feels rushed is because a lot of the change that happens to Discord (internally) is not seen by the viewer. Discord hides his true thoughts behind his antics through the episode, and eventually the realization really hits him. While perhaps the framing device for the epiphany could have been better, I think if you look at the episode with a mind willing to figure out what Discord might have been struggling through, you can see how he was interacting with Fluttershy and her kindness. Here's how I see it, and it might be wrong, but Discord tests out what Fluttershy's supposed kindness is through his antics, firmly believing that he has control over the whole situation. He thinks that Fluttershy was basically a pawn in his game. That is, until at the end when he offers a Xanatos gambit to call her bluff, and Fluttershy doesn't act the way he expects her to. He realizes that he didn't really understand what Fluttershy's kindness was or why she was acting, and that he wasn't manipulating her the way he had thought he was. I think that he had was suddenly snared by the curiosity of the whole situation, along with realizing that Fluttershy really would never use the Element on him. It really struck a cord with him. I still think that some of it seemed a bit forced at the end. Such as the tears and a bit of his dialogue. I think perhaps he should have just gave a hearty laugh (more to himself), fixed the situation with a snap of his fingers and said something along the lines of, "You won the game, Fluttershy, I admit defeat," in an overly dramatic tone, as he decides to study her kindness further and truly understand it. But that's not something that would easily be understood by the audience per se, so I think the show staff did well enough, even if they had to rush the ending. The important part, I think, is that Fluttershy displayed an impressive level of maturity and affinity for her element. As well as displaying a great moral that standing up for what you believe is the right thing to do, even when your friends are doubtful, (and even when a good number of viewers might be doubtful), is a beautiful moral that I think eclipses its use in A Canterlot Wedding. Truly, there is no more impressive instance of Fluttershy interacting with others than her display in this episode. Thanks, Dr.Wolf and Buc, for another video that got me thinking about something that I hadn't invested too much thought into before. ~SilentBelle

[@toron2haruto5]

Great as always doctor :) keep up the good work and don't stop what your doing!

[@MrConredsX]

i wasnt suprised by his quick reformation, he did never had a friend and his selfless act were making him look evil but his true character was alays chaotic neutral and his desire to have a friend was bigger than conquering the world from the beginning

[@NeoMaddy]

As someone who's never watched an episode of MLP, I'm not at all certain how I wound up here. The Internet is a devious place.

[@cosmosuniverse5986]

I have to say having a friendship like Fluttershy's and Discord's friendship is hard and can be stressful at times, but being in a similar friendship with a different background, is hard but they care for me and always there for me when I need it. This episode could have told a little bit more about reasoning, but it's episode that should be watched

[@skeletor8951]

This made me think about why Fluttershy took the route through the problem she took. Then it occurred to me she already cares for a "rebellious child" - Angel Bunny. He's been nothing but a troublemaker to everyone else, but to Fluttershy he's a loyal friend. Discord is the same way, evident by "Three Is A Crowd," in how he causes trouble except when Fluttershy is involved, like during "Princess Twilight."

[@Vampirate143]

"Just between me and you it's mostly for Fluttershy" 😻😍😍 o Discord 💙💙💙 I loved the season 4 finale. Fluttershy " we aren't worth it". " oh but you are Fluttershy you're the pony that taught me that friendship is magic, I had friendship and Magic but now I have neither" Discord 😢😞😩 😍😉😉

[@miniman649]

love that inhale and exhale in the end. It kind of makes me thing that this is either very draining for you to do this with others or it is just frustrating.

[@pippo17173]

The ending while it is bothersome, the entire episode is still good and I love it.

[@treetoplps4061]

YOUR SO AWESOME!!!!!!!!!!!

[@cadence4527]

What makes you think that the entire reformation took place in the space of one day? For all we know, we could have just been seeing spinets of several days all sewed together into one episode.

[@Spiritstar0]

you could argue that back during that clash with Chrysalis that Princess Celestia was pulling her "punches" so her prized student would find a way to solve it and improve herself, or something to that effect. Granted, it was Shining Armor and Princess Cadence who saved the day, so, FAIL.

[@EmeralBookwise]

I think the biggest problem with the way KC&FO ends is that it was in so many ways begging to be an episode on tough love and not letting others take adavatage of your kindness, but instead sends an entirely different message. Fluttershy's determination is admirable, but Discord clearly shows no genuine interest in changing his ways up until the rushed conclusion, which has some very unfortunate parallels to real world abusive relationships. As such, its worrisome lesson to see portrayed in a show specifically targeted at young girls. The comparison to people who feel socially ostracized until someone shows them unwavering kindness just doesn't work here. Discord isn't just some lonely grumpy-pants, but a certified villain who has engaged in willfully harmful acts for his own petty amusement. While I strongly believe that everyone is ALWAYS worthy of a second chance, it has to be something the reformee is willing to work for. Discord from the very start, however, showed no desire to reform, and in fact openly mocked the idea it was even possible, clearly displaying that he wasn't ready to be given that second chance. And really, that might be my bigger problem with the episode, not that Discord reforms in the end, but rather that anyone (least of all Celestia, who showed only contempt for him previously) would consider giving him a second chance unless there was some extenuating circumstance that necessitated it. Fluttershy and everyone else might be in characters given the situation into which they've been forced, but Celestia is the one who put them there and she NEVER explains her goals beyond a vague statement of how useful Discord's powers could be. Simply put, there is a huge problem with any story premise that right from the start has Twilight "most-faithful-student" Sparkle questioning her mentor's sanity without ever providing a satisfactory answer to those motives.

[@nameynamd9212]

A bit of that rush explains the actions Discord takes in the following season as he realizes that friendship matters to him, but Fluttershy isn't informed enough to know what to do or how to do it, which combined with the mistrust of him by the rest paints that genuine attempt as two-faced(the accusation is not completely baseless, but it didn't consider anything in the present) Though it seems like only kindness in the generic sense, the reaction to being seen as a "silly, gullible fool" and firmness after clearing the Plundervines makes it feel like a faith-based gamble(the message feels like its leaning more into the ideas of redemption/rehabilitation, the specifics on that end are up to heavy debate on the effectivess and range of the practice, the moment of loneliness being that chance for a better life that can be given to those who've done wrong)

[@MrMarinus18]

I think Fluttershy had a lot of faith into friendship. My main problem is how inconsiderate she was towards the others of the mane 6.

[@kendallonian9753]

Honestly, they all knew that she was their friend. Discord was the one who needed to know that she would back him no matter what.

[@The0ptimus]

Discord's reformation in this episode DID feel a bit too quick for me personally, but then again this IS a cartoon we're talking about. In real life most people need more time to change when something like this happens to them, but still, I think it was handled decently. At least he had one whole extra season after this to TRULY reform.

[@qwertykins76]

A Christmas Carol reference was nice.

[@EstevanOlvera94]

doc you are the element of helpful.

[@keturahmagee6413]

It could be like a intervention instead of for drugs or alcohol it's more for bad behavior or getting his act together.

[@DragoSonicMile]

I suppose Cadance's breathing technique works for several people.

[@XDRONIN]

Actually, I don't think the ending was rush; but rather, I see the episode flaw to be the lack of more moments where Discord realizes that he was becoming Fluttershy's friend.

[@MadMunchkin]

This is an old video but it showcases my thoughts on why I think Fluttershy behaved the way she did in this episode. Again, its an old video, so bare with it. Mad Munchkin Reviews Keep Calm and Flutter On

[@DRWolf001]

I remember watching that video many months ago, and you do bring up quite a few fair points.

[@Zillakar]

Dr.Wolf its good to be helping

[@arch8angel]

i can just start talking to anyone but only just talk...anything more and i get unsure and uneasy.

[@MinePurpose]

Fluttershy's behavior was in fact not even close to what you would call "common sense" or even logical. But the point was about the power of kindness winning people over, and that kindness can achieve great things that conflict and distrust can never attain. I think Buc's problem was that he was analyzing it too pragmatically and not placing enough value on the virtuousness of Fluttershy's behavior and the power such virtuousness can have without using more "sensible planning".

[@brentramsten249]

the elements dont kill. the gun comparison is flawed. its just a system of punishment. its like the stick (universal object of disincentive). when putting away the stick its like saying, "i trust you not to do things worth of punishment".

[@MrConredsX]

i think he meant that wearing the Element meant turning him into stone which equals kill

[@brentramsten249]

i mean i could see the argument for, "a fate worse than death". but equals kill? that just doesnt make any sense

[@geoffreyserfass6215]

I do really like this episode, but I still think it would have been better as a 2 parter. However, with Season 3's time constraints, there was no way to justify using that much time. Oh well, even if it's not as good as it could have been, I still think it's pretty good with what it has.

[@noob_jr_2sjrkc]

"Do as I say and I'll be nice" WAS the status they were in until he asked her to not use her element, wasn't it? The thing is, _conditional friendship_ implied that she would be constantly judging his actions and having power over him. She went further and offered him _real friendship_, where she would _trust_ him to behave. She made his actions cost him their friendship, rather than bring him punishment. Discord's change being abrupt doesn't seem so unbelievable if you consider that the single thing that changed was that he learned to value friendship, rather than dismiss it as worthless. It still throws off the flow when watching the episode, though. Writing entertainment is complicated. As a side note, I wouldn't say Celestia made a mistake by trying to fight Chrysalis with magic. Since even Chrysalis was surprised she won, it's implied that normally Celestia _would_ be more powerful than the changeling queen. Rather, she was wrong about doubting Twilight.

[@CorpulentBrony]

My head cannon tells me Discord may be playing a not-so-good role in the upcoming season finale...

[@Skybii]

MrConredsX I think he's going to wind up sacrificing himself to save the Mane 6, and then as the smoke clears from whatever hit him we find out he was starswirl the bearded all along.

[@Lori_P89]

I didn't like the rushed ending either, but I don't think it's that big a deal seeing as how the reformation sorta got ret-conned anyway~

[@Banchoking]

She didn't want him to feel like he was being coerced. She wanted him to come around on his own. A forced reformation wouldn't have lasted.

[@FMFPonies]

I didn't really care for the end of Keep Calm and Flutter on either, I thought it would have been better if Fluttershy hadn't been so accusatory with Discord before asking him to fix the farm. Like if she lead with something like "It would be really great if you could help Apple Jack out with the flooding problem" A lot of the best episodes in this series really botch the endings

[@missedthebandwagon976]

For me, I didn't like "Keep Calm and Flutter on" my first time watching more of for fearing Discord would change for the worst and become a "goody-two shoes than how Fluttershy acted or how quick it happened. I thought my favorite character was being dumbed-down. I kinda lost my faith in the show, but seeing Discord the next time really did make me happy. And watching it the second time, it became one of my favorite episodes, this happens to me a lot. I think something is terrible, but it ends up making me a much better person and a lot happier.(Like MLP for example.)

[@dexterthoma867]

K Doctor wolf did he just disappeared out of nowhere ????

[@ToughTheWigglytuff]

Did Buc just fade away? Was he really there to begin with?

[@eddog6666]

Fluttershy is one of the stronger character in the show. Fluttershy has a tough element. Kindness. As shown in episode 16 of season 4 Kindness is both a strength an a weakness. I still hold by my theory that Fluttershy had a family death before the start of the series. It's the only reason that makes any sense because Depression in return of harmony and Putting your hoof down. I think discord saw Fluttershy's past and we know that Discord may be the only type of his species around. but we don't know what happen before his first defeat. Could is rage and desire to rule come from losing is own family? now imagine that you have lost your whole family years ago and someone trying to be nice to you but they can't say why because they are dealing with the same thing? it makes Fluttershy action look clearer, doesn't it? if this is true that means two of the mane character had to deal with death.

[@cannibalisticrequiem]

But Bob Cratchit wasn't what caused Scrooge's change of heart, it was Tiny Tim. Scrooge doesn't show concern for another human being until he sees Tim. Sure he cared for and loved Belle, but he became consumed with money and broke their engagement. When he sees it all again, he feels remorseful, but it's not the turning moment for him. Me personally, I always thought Fluttershy wasn't genuinely concerned with being Discord s friend. She was being kind to him because she had to, it wasn't of her own attrition. We see as much when she guilt trips Discord into feeling sorry for not fixing the dam and freezing Sweet Apple Acres. When she just abandons him, and we can glean from her body language that Discord needs to fix his shit to get back on her good side. I find it all manipulative. I still have a problem with this entire episode. I don't see Discord ever having a need for friends (and the tacked on notion that, if he did have a friend, he wouldn't be so prone to causing chaos, is ridiculous). And I'm not a big fan of the Mane Six using coercion as a method to get him to behave. It just feels like they're unknowingly sending out the message, "If you want someone to be friends with you, you have to force them into it!", and, "If your friend (or anyone) isn't acting in a manner you find acceptable, make them feel like shit until they're forced to change! Trust us, it'll work."

[@Kraigon42]

Another great session, Doctor. Though the background art begs me to say "Can you hear me now? Good." I can never really imagine what to say as a reply to these videos, though, since they're much more a back-and-forth between you and your guest than any invitation for others' comments, like your episode reviews typically are. Not that that is any problem on its own, but I am still not one to say much of anything unless I can truly say a lot about it. It's honestly made me a little embarrassed that I keep getting +1's on a comment which entirely consists of "I always love a sax." And now I fear I've gone and rambled much too much about nothing at all. Well, toodles, I'm off to lose more of my sanity.

[@cryofpaine]

Fluttershy isn't Cratchet, she is Fred, Scrooge's nephew. This one scene shows exactly what Fluttershy is doing. kzbin.info/www/bejne/boayfJ5_ht-Zepom31s "I mean to keep the door of happiness open, and give him a chance every year to slip in, whether he likes it or not." Fluttershy isn't stupid. She knows that if he did something truly dangerous, she could easily put on the necklace and turn him to stone. What she's doing is showing him mercy. Giving him every opportunity to come to the realization for himself that, to quote Fred, "his offenses carry their own punishment." If you want someone to be a criminal, you treat them like a criminal. If you want someone to be a friend, you treat them like a friend. You show them kindness, and more importantly, you show them trust. If she had delivered the same ultimatum to him, saying she would only remove it if he promised to behave, she wouldn't have been a very good friend. She would have shown that she didn't trust him, and without trust, there can't be friendship.

[@cryofpaine]

A more accurate example may be from Les Miserables. Discord is Valjean, Fluttershy is Bishop Myriel. When Valjean steals the silver from the church, and is brought back by the police to have the Bishop charge him with theft, not only does the Bishop deny that anything was stolen, but he gives Valjean the candlesticks as well, saying he left them behind. Valjean spent years in prison, and when he got out, he became a thief. This act of kindness undoes all those years and sets him back to being an honest respectable man.

[@Calpsotoma]

If she would have left it as a threat, it would have been Stockholm Syndrome.

[@JayWolf1985]

I have to point out one thing to Buc here. He points out that he feels mothers don't have a choice but to raise & nurture & love their children. This is horribly untrue I am afraid. There are plenty of mothers out there who have neglected, abused or given up their children because they wanted nothing to do with them. So yes, there is a choice, so I feel his rebuttal to your attempt to make a point was very misguided.

[@rhymebeat1142]

This is why I'm pissed off by both sides that see this an abusive relationship. Especially Mr. Enter (I like him a lot generally speaking). Is withdrawing friendship when your friend breaks the rules you set AND acts unapologetically dickish about it, abuse. No. It would be if Fluttershy prevented Discord from making any other friends, which is where that type of relationship can become abusive. On the contrary she encouraged her other friends to give him a chance and learn to like him. Likewise I can't see Discord's behavior being truly abusive. Fluttershy agreed to take him in, with full knowledge that Discord is a being of pure chaos. In a sense Fluttershy is more used to chaos than other ponies, what with dealing with wild animals all the time. So it makes sense that Fluttershy willingly gives him full freedom to do what he wants, showing him that Equestria will accept him for who he is as long as he doesn't use his powers on people that don't want chaos in their lives. And with that power Discord upsets Fluttershy's life but he doesn't truly hurt her personally, just makes her life harder... Which can be true of certain roommates as much as it can be true of abusive partners. Discord is a reality warper that can't be stopped from acting his will, and before this episode never had a reason to NOT do what he wants. He likely scared off many friends by using his powers, having someone in his life who accepts his powers is something new to him. He probably didn't even initially realize that Fluttershy truly wanted to allow him freedom, to him Fluttershy was just bowing to Princess Celestia's power like all ponies do. He's still not used to the concept of self-imposed limits because for his entire life he's gone from being completley unlimited while free, or immobile as stone (and self aware in that state BTW). In other words before this episode you could describe Discord as a social-Darwinist libertarian. Equestria is a world were either you do what you want regardless of whether or not it screws other people over, or you're completely screwed over, left trapped, immobile, and powerless. Fluttershy showed that willingly allowing someone freedom isn't a sign of weakness, it's a sign of compassion. Discord realized that the "freedom" to hurt others, to do whatever he wanted, wasn't worth being isolated from any kind of friendship. Fluttershy if she thought in the same way as Discord would have used the pre-text of him freezing SAA to seal him away again. By allowing him his freedom, she showed that Equestria isn't just a place where the strong rule, but where ponies willingly compromise to make things better. She showed him the value of limiting your own freedom for the sake of others. Wow I didn't realize when I started this how political this would get, but I find this a fascinating episode.

[@leonasnake]

pre sure discord had seen plenty of shit in the many many maaaany years he spent as a big noodle boulder.

[@janusztyszewski8295]

Sorry, this argument did nothing to convince me that the conclusion of the episode wasn't poorly written. No matter how hard I try, I can't see what Discord could possibly be getting from his relationship with Fluttershy. His epiphany supposedly comes from realizing that he wants to keep Flutters as a friend, but that just seems forced. The episode lacks any scenes before that that would indicate that he enjoys spending time with her for the sake of spending time with her. If there was at least one scene like that, the ending would make sense to me. As it stands the whole friendship thing for them is based solely on Shy calling him her friend (and I guess I can imagine how that would be a huge deal for him... but it makes him look kind of stupid). I also have a different view on how Fluttershy was viewing the whole event. To me she knew full well what she was doing all the time, she had a plan and she stuck with it, and the whole element thing was a bluff and a gamble of Discord not calling her on it and it worked, he broke before she was forced to break her "promise". I know how cynical that sounds... but do you really belive that Fluttershy would actually allow everyone to suffer if her method didn't work?

[@MrConredsX]

but there was that scene, the one that she protect him from her friends at the table and call him her friend. It must have struck him with a power of thousand suns because it was the first little string of love and caring he had recieved in his long lifetime

[@janusztyszewski8295]

MrConredsX After some consideration, I must agree that this is most likely the correct interpretation of what happened. I guess I have a hard time with the fact that Discord was actually so much in need of someone to show him some kindness. In one moment he goes, in my eyes, from a god o chaos, to a child (albeit a very powerful one) that's acting out, because nobody loves him. On a side note, that sceen is the one that best shows how good at acting and scheming Flutershy is, she makes everyone belive (including the viewers) that she actually thinks Discord is innocent, but she is just trying to get Discord hooked on the idea of friendship. Really well played Fluttershy!

[@thunderflare59]

I made a video about Discord's reformation. It might be of interest to both of you. Discord's Reformation

[@therealhagrid779]

fir-NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

[@Skywolfhd20]

huh 3rd comment

[@Narakiomal]

Great as always doctor :) keep up the good work and don't stop what your doing!

[@waltersilva6221]

tambem sou broni

[@waltersilva6221]

qual o seu favorito?