An Alternate Function Diagram

[@WorldSocionics]

Democracy isn't just about giving each person their say, but the aggregation of all views into view that represents the majority rather than the minority. That part, I think the Delta types will struggle with. They are more the quadra of hearing out the minority perspective. There is rarely any drive to centralise this, but rather to personalise this.

[@fakedoorsfordinner1677]

Interesting, yeah. I have a more accurate system which hasn't a very nice name, but it works so i don't care. Notes: Delta being avoidant of common laws, preferring personal (of themselves or of others) laws. However, howcome Delta's then trusts authority as much as they do? Wouldn't they stand up for the oppressed and negate ordinary authority? Subject: My view of delta seems to align much more with the thing that separates communism from facism. Explaination: Communism strives to liberate or glorify the minority through collective societal action. Facism strives to conform or destroy the minority through collective action. Both are clearly a government form not all to interested in freedom and while Alpha's and Delta's could be very forgiving, we all know that Beta's and Gamma's will kill you if you touch their freedom. Conclusion: So we can assume that Delta is communist and Alpha is Fascist. Which isn't a very nice name, but it works. PS: I'd say Gamma is more Anarchist for obvious reasons and Beta... Beta would be the opposite of Delta, so maybe capitalist? Food for thought.

[@fakedoorsfordinner1677]

Another system of description would be Through Hegel, Kant and Kierkegaard. Assuming Kierkegaard is an INFP and Hegel and Kant an INTP or ENTP. Hegel and Kant want to amass the people under one quality and let 'everyone' become the ideal human/ follow the same laws, which are the same no matter who you are or what you believe. Thus making everyone the same and no one special or different in their thinking. This makes abstraction really easy and simple, making logic the determinator of everything. Kierkegaard hated this, for it ignores the act of assumptions or beliefs being made. He says that everyone may be the same thinker, but everything you ever thought about must be built up from the same assumptions, which can't be verified or falsified since they aren't actual fact, but rather a belief (like how we assume that our likes (favorite food, church, love, etc.) or dislikes are fact while they are completely assumed and are grounded on nothing at all). Which is why we should focus on the individual instead of the collective. This is similar to David Hume's is-ought problem: 'No ought (moral judgement) can be derived from an is (factual stament).'

[@moniker4833]

my problem with these types of systems is because concepts like "hotness" have nothing intrinsically to do with concepts of personality, you could feasibily come up with a reasonable justification to pair any concept with any other.

[@moniker4833]

like what if I think Ti-Fe is warm actually and build a similar system based on that. what if mine is more popular and you have to defend your system? you can say that my intuitions are wrong and yours are right but you don't really have anything to base that on.

[@moniker4833]

this must be an Ni/Ne thing because it seems obvious to me that this way of organizing these concepts which seems obvious to you is just one way of many ways you could accomplish the same general thing

[@amidreaming333]

I also like that you have the NTPs under the cold and dry element of earth. This ofcourse also relates to the season of winter and is very interesting to me, because I have often thought about Ti and Ne's destructive tendency. Not destructive in the outward ''get out of my way, I must manifest myself'' sense of the aristocratic group, but in a cold, dry, sucking the life out of everything sense. I recognise this very much in myself and I often feel that I'm every draining myself of my own life force with my endless analysis. Ti is extremely reductive and does not allow anything to live or breathe as an animated presence. It is constantly trying to pin things to the dissection table and cut them piece by piece until there is nothing left with any distinct essence to it. Ne assists by questioning the validity of all and not respecting anything as a holistic entity. It can not allow for existence, because it is constantly imagining other possibilities and in combination with Ti going for non-existence. This is where you get to the NTPs thinking themselves out of existence. Winter is the season of death and I really believe that my own mind is where all things go to die. Sometimes I can only feel the cold blood start to flow through my veins again when I simply go along with someone else's experience of life. I think it's somewhat beautiful though. Death is neccessary for life.

[@prestonleebenjamin]

I like this - think similarly as well. I associate NT’s as destroyers, designed to pick apart and destroy what doesn’t work. I’m also Ti dom and feel that my constant over-analysis of everything is an endless drain, but I’d never associated it with death. I really like how from that perspective NTP’s are on the bottom half balancing the NTJ’s on the top half with fire with from a destroyer idea’s perspective.

[@samuelunias673]

24:21 you could say not only each seed has the right to grow on its own (NFP), but also has the duty to be self sustainable (STJ). The judgement comes to what is necessary to maintain its freedom and independency.

[@art_deanoism]

I think a good name for Delta might be the 'Libertarians', or 'Yeomanry'. STJs and NFPs are united in their idea of the individual and their self ownership. NFPs focus on the self-discovery, STJs on the consequences and practicalities of making unique choices. Another aspect of Alpha might be the 'Free Traders'. All ideas can be traded in free exchange.

[@zhaoli4608]

Maybe the analytic-synthetic dichotomy could be applied to the judging axes as well? Te-Fi: analytic judging Fe-Ti: synthetic judging

[@coffeman7900]

Holy hell bro, i love you

[@MichaelPiercePhilosophy]

Thanks but I'm still in a relationship with the diagram

[@Two_Paths]

Hi Michael! Great synthesis of various elements into a cohesive diagram of the functions! As a “Democrat” I can see what you did and it does seem to cover all bases in and of itself. If we look at the trends of where things are going vs where they have been for most of human history, INDIVIDUALS have for the most part relinquished their INDIVIDUAL INNER sense authority in favor of a Collective OUTER authority. That is to say, for various reasons, people have either largely subscribed to the truths provided for them by OUTER authorities of the times. If you notice, humans are increasingly becoming more emancipated in their minds and are on the inevitable path toward maximum individual expression that we have hitherto experienced in history. This new Cycle will bring about a turning of the wheel of how society is structured, there will be less and less human OUTER authorities to provide and unify the people under a singular vision.. many people will become lost but through the confusion many more people will start relying on their INNER authority to guide them despite the chaos that will develop in the coming years…. Miss you Professor Pierce!

[@TomCarberry413]

Your observation that a lot of actors come from the theocratic type brings to mind Jesuit theater. As to the Tarot coming out of the late middle ages/early renaissance, everything came from that era. All our "ancient" writings magically turned up in the most unlikely places during the Renaissance, from Plato and Aristotle to Plutarch, Cato, and Tacitus. Many of them found by the same person, Poggio Bracciolini. And luckily for Poggio, rich people paid him big bucks for his discoveries. I will come back to this video after I study up on the MB personality types. Listening to you made me realize I have forgotten most of it.

[@kapteinskruf]

I think the way you explain the wetness and coldness of the axes makes sense! Yet I would suggest a different elemental distribution: Earth: Si-Ne & Fi-Te; Fire: Se-Ni & Ti-Fe; Air: Si-Ne & Fe-Ti; Water: Se-Ni & Fi-Te. NFPs and STJs seem preoccupied with being grounded (economically); NFJs & STPs seem preoccupied with making an impact (socially) [like fire]; NTPs & SFJs seem preoccupied with being accomodating (both intellectually and socially) [like a playful breeze]; NTJs & SFPs seem preoccupied with going their own way (in a f everyone else kind of way) [like a river carving a path through solid rock]. What do you think about that, Sensei?

[@Alexandre.2]

hiya! big fan from brazil here.

[@WorldSocionics]

Michael... I have some pokey questions... What do the dry and cold functions have in common? What do the dry and hot functions have in common? What do the wet and cold functions have in common? What do the wet and hot functions have in common? I mean not what groups they form (we know they create contextual, universal, analytic and synthetic types), but rather, how the functions themselves operate.

[@Mindbend88]

Awesome connections and insight!!!

[@johnschultzbarnes3196]

The thumbnail is so cool

[@piyush4left]

What do you think about the concept of beta Quadra, and how infj fits in the catagory of beta Quadra aristocracy.

[@claudiabottom4086]

Is that why my siblings hate Myers’s brig. Because I am as an intp am daring reducing them down into coinage to deal with them, they are aristocrats (Intj, entj) they hate the 4 gen theory too, for same reason.

[@yusufjibrel7465]

Really interesting stuff, and cool to see how socionics and WSS(Jack) helps you try to construct this framework. I really like the experimental(in an abstract conceptual sense) feel of these videos being explorations of different ways to conceptualize and furthurt categorize the basic elements that Jung outined(and that most of the systems based on his work agree on, things like introversion/extroversion, T 4 basic functions etc.). Anyways just wanted to say that these videos are really cool even if they don't get as many views as some of your older stuff, which is fair enough i suppose since they are considerably more niche and advanced. PS this whole thing definetely seems pretty Ti(and also Fe, with the desire for the coherence and harmony/balance of the system i think?) with the desire for neat coherent catagories and interplay, whilst the preference for exploration or rather generating your own system/approach does seem pretty Ni. Not sure why i went into this but you do seem be an INFJ in your own system atleast(to the best of my understanding). PS PS Irrelevant side note but do you or anyone else reading this think that it is possible not to guess someone's type but to atleast get an idea of what functions they prefer through text(like this comment)?

[@MichaelPiercePhilosophy]

I'm glad you've enjoyed them! As for your "PS PS", I suppose you could make a guess based on it, but I wouldn't put any money on it, as it were.

[@yusufjibrel7465]

@@MichaelPiercePhilosophy Fair, its Definetely more about the fun and playing with patterns than actual accuracy. And i don't even do it, the idea just hit me at the time and reminded of a website that tries to guess your type based on a text you feed it. Anyways thx for the reply, cheers dude!

[@nigelharvey640]

This is cool and I like the direction of unifying symbols here. I wanted to add some on what you call Anarchist or Democrats since I feel familiar with the mindset here. Hopefully it is helpful. For the Democrats I feel like Republic (or something like that. Maybe libertarian) is more accurate. I think myself that the respect for each individual is an impulse to free the underdog from the constraints of Unfair tyrannies. However, the only way to combat tyrannies is with an equal force of potentially tyrannical power. So the whole operation of Delta is to create and apply power and rules in a way that is the least susceptible to over extending and consuming everyone by its very existence. Ideally producing a system that: 1. comes into being 2. kills unfairness 3. Dies willingly or at least goes on standby. This is impossible to do really but it’s an asymptomatic effort. 1 is Te world, 2 is an identification + operation problem so Te & Fi, 3 is Fi world. I think this is what makes them opposite to Theocrats. To Delta, Groups are meant to serve their purpose and die as soon as possible. So purpose, intent, methods, etc, need to be analyzed with as bluntly as possible to ensure the preservation of as much self determination as can be conceived. I think STJ’s are more active about being the tyranny of the tyrannical preemptively and proactively with the structures already in place. NFP’s study tyranny in themselves as a theoretical narrative/motivation problem and try to unravel it like pulling a thread (of true motivations/intents), rather than campaigns. This is in the benevolent case. In a shadowy state, they just lean into tyranny themselves Finding ways to justify it (NFP’s) or Finding means to continuously wield it (STJ’s) Both My dad (ISTJ) and myself (ENFP) have this kind of righteous indignation that feels similar to the Aristocrats (a sense that we know better) but bc of this tyranny thing, it doesn’t manifest as making a gang to go do something. The Universal sense of the Plutocrats kinda fills in the gap with a general sense that we already have the entire grouping since we all exist. All that is left is Analyzing what is there for its most optimal “togetherness” that preserves the most universal (and hopefully constructive) intentions that can be had. It’s not like a revolution of the people, (though I imagine it has that effect on others) because I don’t feel we necessarily want to lead. It’s more seeing the need for leadership in a vacuum and doing it before something nefarious does. Since we are already all together, there are some basic rights and duties that must be done or people will have only one outlet to manifest their intent, namely violence. We are down for this state of affairs if unavoidable (Si & Te) but it is also a tragic waste of potential creativity (Ne & Fi).

[@amidreaming333]

No I like this more. The basis of democracy is dependent on people having desires, for which they need Fi. As an INTP I can see how this makes sense. My sister is an INFP and she is definitely much more democratic. Politically, philosophically, personally... These jolly INFP, ENFP types are so much the essense of what a democrat really is. I'm not entirely sure about the ESTJ, ISTJ, but I do get a sense that they somehow 'serve' the democracy. Like they are the beaurocrats that are a neccessary byproduct of the democracy, but also it's downfall. I think generally this would be good for you to play with. Clearly in every group there is a dichotomy present. The NFPs form the desiring, asking group that needs the STJs to form a centralised insitution that makes it possible for them just play and have fun haha In the ''plutocrats'' as you have now called them, the NTP half are making the innovations neccessary for everyone to become ''equal,'' while the SFJs are the ones asking for equality, safety, etc. At the same time these innovations are actually isolating people and tearing apart families, so that they become the SFJs nightmares. I imagine Mark Zuckerbergs family complaining that they don't see him enough and him just going ''fine here's a way you can keep in touch with people wherever they are,'' (I know that's not how it went) but in the end social media has just made people less social. Theres almost a vibe of mutual resentment between the two halves of each group. Another image that comes to mind is the INTJ getting bullied in high school by an ESFP, making them want to become rich and famous just to prove their value even though they don't materially value the same things? I think you catch my drift.

[@egcm3]

Sorry Michael, but now you are balder than ever! Jokes aside i really love your job and you open the door for a lot of content and knowledge that changed my life! Eternal respect for you.

[@yaakovbarrokion7650]

I was reading the book and i noted something strange about the elements of each function. I gonna use X for straigh line and O for broken line. Se = XXX Si = XXO Ne = XOX Ni = XOO Te = OXX Ti = OXO Fe = OOX Fi = OOO For me, it's looks like Ne should be Water, Ni Lake, Te Thunder and Ti Fire. Could you explain if I got it wrong? About the names, i think positivist it's a good name for the Si/Ne + Te/Fi types. Many of xSTJ's i've met were positivist and utilitarians.

[@a.m.e.]

As I see dream symbols. The sword is the mind, and cup is the heart, and the staff is the will power. The staff is the trunk of the tree, the branches are the mind, and the roots are the heart, and the truck holds them together. Gold coins are the heart refined, and silver coins are the mind refined.

[@a.m.e.]

I also just realized that the seeing the tarot symbols primarily as symbolizing groups of people rather than parts of the psyche would suggest the influence of the Unification lens. ;)

[@diegoalmeida1107]

the coins are the opposite of Karl Marx

[@filipposa212]

I would agree with Te-Fi being the Hot temperament, and Fe-Ti being Cold, however I'd switch Wet and Dry because the way the temperaments were described in ancient times, implied that Wetness has the element of elasticity and "not taking reality very heavily or seriously" whereas Dryness was the more serious one... Cholerics and Melancholics are the one who take life in a more serious and heavy way, often dark, whereas Sanguines and Phlegmatics are a little more on the merry side. This connects with socionics too, if I remember well there was a Serious / Judicious dichotomy or something like that. Therefore Ne-Si to me is closer to Wet, Se-Ni to Dry. Then this would lead us to the following classifications by quadra: Α - Phlegmatics Β - Melancholics (makes sense in the case of INFJ for sure) Γ - Cholerics (no nonsense types in general) Δ - Sanguines (not a perfect association but they seem to have a lighter outlook on life compared to Gammas for example.)

[@mergerio]

Hello, I have found that: Air: ENTJ-ISFP and ENTP-ISFJ Water: ENFP-ISTJ and ENFJ-ISTP Fire: ESTJ-INFP and ESTP-INFJ Earth: ESFP-INTJ and ESFJ-INTP I like the above configuration because it gives each Element plenty of function variety. I've been integrating MBTI into astrology/tarot since 2019.

[@samuelunias673]

I'm not understanding this association. Could you explain why would you arrange them this way?

[@mergerio]

@@samuelunias673 it's complicated. I'm not sure I can explain it. I've been obsessed with mbti since 2012. I've explored the dynamic between types and functions thoroughly. Michael, here, seems just as thorough. There's a grouping of the types: entp, isfj, enfj, istp, esfp, intj, estj, infp VS. esfj, intp, estp, infj, entj, isfp, enfp, istj The first group is more stationary, non-energetic. The second is more energetic and transfiguring. It's a great dichotomy between the types imo. So each Element has 2 types from both sides of that dichotomy.

[@mergerio]

The dichotomy I'm describing could be used for the Ni/Se vs. Si/Ne situation in a way... But the first group is like, "here is my kingdom and I love it and it is what it is." The second group is transfiguring, "mind" oriented you could say... I actually like to put the sixteen types in an infinity symbol shape.

[@Heart.headed]

Well, I sure hope you aren't married to it; sure would be a challenge to consummate that relationship... So to speak... 😁

[@MichaelPiercePhilosophy]

KZbin offered me as a standard reply "Challenge accepted" and I was sorely tempted to press it lol

[@Heart.headed]

@@MichaelPiercePhilosophy 🤣🤣🤣💪🏼😎