An Alternative to the Antioch Declaration with Joseph Spurgeon

[@pennymchenry1205]

Joseph's statement is so much clearer. This whole situation is terrible cause I love and benefit from all these men. I'm praying the Lord sorts all this out. Thank you for all the good content.

[@davidbanks4168]

So glad the Antioch Declaration included that completely random denunciation of thinking Aristotle’s life is normative. That’s provided clarity on so many really important issues facing the church🙄

[@James-c5e1e]

Probably White...He is obsessed with hating on Aquinas , Natural Law and thus Aristotle. HE does this because he is obsessed on attacking Catholics.

[@spiritandflesh8477]

West Virginia guy here. Correct on all accounts Jon. West Virginia is indeed beautiful, but those who live here generationally are generally suspicious of people from out of state. I am that way but I have Scottish ancestry as well so I’m a little red blooded. I enjoyed Spurgeons comment about putting his child’s feet in WV dirt. That was awesome. As far as the Antioch Document, it veils something that should read clear. Doug Wilson has that effect sometimes. I think your alls perspective was spot on. If it is important enough to warrant a declaration then it should be approachable enough for a layman to handle.

[@asimon8313]

Great conversation. I appreciated the acknowledgement that there was a lot of “inside baseball” language in the Antioch Declaration. I am familiar with the dispute between Joel Webbon and James White, et al. I disagree with the handling of it on the opposing (Wilson, White +)side. I do not follow any of them, so no strong opinion here, just observation. However, the declaration was hard to track if you’re not “in” the club. This seems a much better approach to prejudice that may need confronting. 🙏🏻 for resolution.

[@1Whipperin]

Wilson tends to write in gobbledygook and jargon.

[@samknobeloch503]

The number 1 reason not to sign the statement is that it appears to be a divisive move against other pastors in the CN movement, because of the timing and the Collaborators (though they deny it). Even if the statement were clear, plainly written, and sufficiently broad to include everyone, the timing alone makes this un-signable. It should not have been released until there was resolution to the conflict between the collaborators (Tobias, White, Wilson, Durbin, Boot) and the pastors/leaders that were accused of facilitating racism and antisemitism in the church (Webbon, Sauve, Conn, Isker).

[@ohio948]

The amount of immaturity from many of these types of reformed guys is kinda repulsive. This drama and divisive declaration is why the Catholics laugh at us. We are a mess.

[@ConversationsThatMatterpodcast]

@@ohio948 Pope Francis

[@conceptualclarity]

​@@ohio948Catholic divisiveness is diminished by the fact that they know they've got a tyrant looking down on them, and even when he is an obvious heretic there's nothing they can do about it.

[@1Whipperin]

Pope Doug and his college of toadies really showed off with this one.

[@Narikku]

I think a big problem is that Wilson, White, et al weren't accusing Webbon, Sauve, et al of racism/antisemitism, but rather characters like Stone Choir. Not once has Wilson, White or the others said that they are facilitating racism.

[@c.p.holmes6184]

I've seen your channel on my feed for a while now, but didn't really watch anything until recently (the first videos of yours I watched were the documentary videos on David Platt). I watched your initial video on the Antioch Declaration yesterday and the situation with Joel Webbon. I really appreciate your clarity, thoughtfulness, and graciousness toward both sides. I'm saddened by the whole thing and by the choices of the side that's apparently decided to war against Joel. I deeply appreciate Pastor Spurgeon's thoughts here, and I love his alternative to the Antioch. On a slightly different note, you were talking toward the end of your video about American folklore (you mentioned Davy Crocket and Daniel Boone). As someone who would like to dive more deeply into American folklore, what books would you recommend reading?

[@ConversationsThatMatterpodcast]

@@c.p.holmes6184 Thanks! There’s a lot of good biographies out there.

[@ratchet-z3d]

To hear that the petty men who wrote the embarrassment of a "declaration" are calling people and pressuring them to sign it is so disgusting.

[@mrleemrleeohmrlee]

This whole situation is heartbreaking and I hope it gets resolved soon. The timing is indeed the worst part of this declaration. I hope they take Pastor Spurgeon's advice, but I'm doubtful that will happen. I know the Moscow camp is used to sticking to their guns, but this is just a bad look.

[@nodramamomma2777]

I'm just sitting here thinking how much I would like Pastor Spurgeon as my elder. 👍

[@brianmiller3287]

I'm about 20 minutes into this, and I am praying that DW and JW are watching. I'm a huge fan of both of those guys, but after all of the the things I have have read and seen about this whole cluster****, I think both have handled it ham-fistedly. First, settle the Webbon/Reinanschneider thing privately. How hard could that be? Second, the Antioch declaration, wasn't necessary, and is too clever by half, and too ambiguous to really solve anything. This whole kerfuffle has really set back the whole "reformed movement", and lost a lot of supporters of DW and JW. I still support both, but I think they should admit that they are human.

[@YayGrr1]

It should have been handled privately from the beginning, but since Tobias, DW, JW, and others made it public, not it HAS to be settled publicly.

[@lauraandrews1676]

Doug Wilson is guilty of constant bloviation and pontification. He is definitely too 'cutesy' and seems to imagine himself one of the great thinkers of our age. Toby Sumpter confuses vulgarity with strength of mind. I can't believe any Christian can listen to him in good conscience.

[@TimeToFlush]

What is being affirmed in The Antioch Declaration is their denial of what the real problem is. It's obfuscation whose author is not God. They should take note of that feeling they had when they wrote it and let that be a warning going forward. (Romans 10:2)

[@b.t.3406]

They are obsessed with ‘antisemitism’ and tone policing Christendom. Former Israeli Minister Shulamit Aloni on Anti-Semitism: "It's a trick, we always use it..."

[@Rebel4YHWH]

Doug Wilson said on the Ezra Institute podcast that this Antioch Declaration was by no means the end all, and that if someone were to put out a better version regarding the issues that he would be willing to sign it.

[@samuelbevins4969]

Very good, really appreciate Pastor Spurgeon's work on this issue and bringing clarity to a much convulated statement. I think because our cultural immersion in democratic liberalism and egalitarianism it can be hard to either admit that's the case (we actually live in the Left's world), or swing too hard in reaction against it leaving behind common sense and Scripture. Natural relations are a real thing, and I thought his advice for us to use discernment and context when figuring these things out was particularly helpful. Also, I love the WV. dirt thing lol. I'm from coal country in KY and I totally understand it, no place like home back in the mountains. It means much more to me than a list of propositions. But anyway, this episode was super helpful

[@shawngillogly6873]

Hit a nail on the head at the end. The Long March Through Academia has convinced generations the Nazis were right wing. Franco and Mussolini may have been. But Naziism was not. Economically, you could draw straight lines between Stalinist Socialism and National Socialism. Wage and price control, party contol of industry, government production quotas for all industries, abolition of labor unions (the thing the Old Left hung its case on Nazis being right wing. But Lenin and Stalin both did the same.). The only difference between Naziism and Stalinism was the *stated* goal of the party. Hitler wanted a German Utopia. Stalin nominally wanted the Marxist Ant Farm. The war in the East was not Left vs Right. It was a war for the soul of Socialism.

[@toddstevens9667]

Very perceptive point. I think many people miss the connection. I suppose many people don’t realize that “Nazi” is short for “National Socialist Worker’s Party.” But I might would add that the war between the socialists was a war between International Socialism and National Socialism. And, of course, there was an obvious racial component to Germany’s national socialism, while the racial component to Stalin’s international socialism was less obvious. But your point about the war between the socialist regimes is very perceptive.

[@conceptualclarity]

Seems to me like Mussolini was also definitely left wing. And we need to remind people that the monarchist Franco was not a fascist, just a co-belligerent of fascists.

[@heresyhunters]

The Dems are the real racists; the Nazis are the real socialists. Lol you normiecons fall for this crap every time.

[@hannahmcmillan5712]

Something that came to mind was the verse in Revelation that says that God will use the leaves of a tree to heal the nations. Well, you need nations to exist in order to have nations to heal.

[@mathhelpbydan5051]

Totally agree

[@AntiochConvert]

The Antioch Declaration is trash. Epic fail.

[@conceptualclarity]

Need to get into the habit of supplying links in the video description to Truthscript articles and other things such as the website of this new statement. People listen to podcasts while driving or doing other things, so they don't necessarily have pen and paper handy to write down what is mentioned in the podcast (although it is good to mention things in the podcast orally).

[@Via-Moderna]

The Antioch Declaration is an historical and theological mess. It is also quite devious, with a built-in ambiguity about who it is going after. I have written an article on the main problems, What is Wrong With the Antioch Declaration, which those interested can find on the Via-Moderna website.

[@outdoormedia77]

This is brilliant stuff Jon I love it and it explains a lot. My big question that will probably never get answered is why was Tobias's video first published (posted) on the Eschatology Matters channel. I understand Eschatology Matters channel is not just Eschatology material but also why that video and that channel. Why not post it on Alpha and Omega, Tobias and Dr. White have been buds for a long time now why not give Tobias Dr. Whites platform, or why not Apologia TV channel or Cannon Press, or even one better why not have Tobias on Cross Politics. It's just kind of odd that they chose Eschatology Matters, and I would like to know why they were the patsy of all this. I won't sign the declaration because most of us know this is a beef between White Tobias and Webbon; they need to hash this out, forgive each other, and move on.

[@michaelfalsia6062]

I read Joe's analysis of the Declaration, and I agree wholeheartedly.

[@justinpickup603]

I hope this becomes a statement website

[@rinihogewoning6528]

It's interesting timing that only a couple of months ago, Joel Webbon (to his credit) put out a podcast promoting unity amongst the reformed churches and avoiding division over tertiary topics. Sadly that's not the case at the moment. I wish we as reformed Christians could be more of a light, not just in sound doctrine but also in unity, especially to those stuck in evanjellyfish Christianity.

[@shannontederoff3026]

I would suggest not publishing it for people to sign. Then it's a "these people signed this and these people signed that one" which can be divisive. I think the two sides need to come together and do a joint one.

[@b.t.3406]

When Joseph said he respected the drama queens behind the Antioch Declaration, that’s when I stopped listening. It’s lame. Maybe focus on real working-class issues, gents.

[@RachelRamey]

I completely agree with your statement about a generation that lacks a sense of place. And some of that, I think, was intentionally engineered that way. I'm an Army brat. I can't even fathom the idea of growing up all in one place. My mom was an Air Force brat. We were talking over Thanksgiving about how weird it is to us to think of having friends from school (in the sense of still having the SAME friends you went to elementary school with). But the military didn't used to be that way -- the military used to be centered in the states. And I strongly suspect that, on someone's part, there was an intentional separation of people from their local ties. Of course, just general mobility due to modern technology also plays a role. And then people don't know their neighbors because everything is compartmentalized....

[@seancheetham6123]

What was the name of the book you referenced about the German Christian movement?

[@jordanpilcher145]

It seems like a lot of people use salvation like the corbon rule. I get saved so I no longer have responsibilities to people.

[@TheHarrisHousehold1689]

41:28 the Harrises are from KY! lol . That’s close enough. Amen to the coal mines being shut down.. such a shame to a LOT of families in the WV, KY areas

[@manonthestars]

The statement "I deny that natural affection for one's own people is equivalent to hatred or indifference toward others. A man who loves his family does not despise his neighbor's but simply loves his own more." I think this principle highlights a fundamental issue that seems particularly pronounced among white people. There appears to be a conflict within white Americans-perhaps even among white British people, though less so in other parts of Europe-regarding the acknowledgment of natural affection for those of the same ethnic background. Most non-white people seem to have little trouble openly recognizing and valuing natural affection for their ethnic groups in the west. However, due to America's history and the challenges of integrating various ethnic groups, many white Americans appear hesitant to acknowledge anything related to their Western, white cultural heritage as inherently good. This internal tension can lead to two extremes: some may lash out and gravitate toward ideologies like Nazism or genuine racism, while others simply feel discomfort or confusion about expressing these natural affections. In my opinion, this is partly because white people are still the majority in America and are often perceived as the "default" image of an American. While this isn't inherently problematic, it does mean that when non-white individuals find themselves in predominantly white environments, their distinctiveness can stand out more sharply, often fostering a natural sense of affection or kinship within their ethnic groups. This contrasts with countries like China or India, where the default population is homogeneous, and such distinctions carry less weight. For white people, there is often a sense of kinship when meeting someone from the same town, city, or school-shared experiences that foster connection. However, in a nation of 340 million people, with 70% being white, the broader kinship of simply being "white" or of European descent holds less perceived significance, particularly in the context of the West. It may feel more meaningful outside of Western nations, where such shared backgrounds are less common. Another issue is that skin tone and phenotypic variation-i.e., "race"-is a proxy term used to describe different human groups with distinct historical starting points in recent history. There are nations today that have emerged through the mixing of multiple ethnic groups, the extinction of some, and other historical processes. Yet, they are all human. Therefore, worrying about protecting one's ethnic background through reproduction is foolish, untenable, and unbiblical. Caring about your people group and desiring immigrants to adopt your cultural uniqueness makes sense because that's how a nation preserves its identity. However, racial differences are merely a proxy for deeper issues that often go unaddressed. Many focus solely on visible differences, as if they carry significant meaning, when they don't. History shows us the dangers of overvaluing such differences, as seen in ideologies like Nazism and the institution of chattel slavery. I think young white people who rightfully reject Marxism and woke ideology who don't get back to a traditional and biblical perspective but go completely other into Nazism or similar ideologies, to to me there like some young Black people who reject Western ideals and fall into African cultist beliefs or into the Nation of Islam in the 60s '70s. years ago I've seen some people online white people who not only got into Nazism but also rejected Christianity and got into Norse paganism. It’s embarrassing because their interest often stems from the fact that it’s different and oppositional to the issues in the West. In the 1960s, white people rejected the West by diving into Eastern religions and philosophies, so I don’t see much of a difference in the reaction-though, of course, some paths are obviously more dangerous than others.

[@Susan-f5u]

How come there are no Reformed evangelists like Wesley, George Whitfield, etc.? Does anyone preach outside the churches publicly? I know the reformed criticize D. L. Moody and Billy Graham but people heard the gospel. The Christian infighting that’s in the public arena to be hung out for the world to see is very discouraging. When these preachers have mastered the book of Zechariah, then form one’s eschatology is what John MacArthur told to the seminary students at Master’s Seminary.

[@justinpickup603]

First we had BigEva now what should we call this now? BigRefo? BigCalvi? BoomerBros?

[@dave1724]

Why not call it Go To The Word?

[@benjaminsummers6868]

Any relation to Charles Spurgeon?

[@steelwarrior105]

Yes, I think he is a some level great nephew or grandson

[@cre8vedesign]

What I don't understsand as a simpleton is all the discussion about aristotle. I don't know why he is coming up and what it means in this discussion.

[@YayGrr1]

It came straight from the leaked conversation between Tobias and Webbon, a distinct point of Tobias'.

[@cre8vedesign]

@@YayGrr1 I get that I don't understand why does one side believe something aristotle says?

[@SerenityNow22]

@@cre8vedesignEric Conn positively tweeted an Aristotle quote (because the quote was true). The older side doesn’t like Aristotle and doesn’t like him being quoted positively.

[@cre8vedesign]

@@SerenityNow22 thanks

[@Kalagi545-tg7ek]

Free speech, free speech. There are about 7bn people in the world. They are all different. So it's ok to question everything if u want. No one has a formula on how Truth works . Let's be honest.

[@TimeToFlush]

Somebody probably donated to their ministries to publish it as is. With all the corruption going on, wouldn't you say the absence of bitterness and hatred would be a telling sign? God must have known we would need to know that first part of that verse that goes "be angry." He knew we would get caught up in the last part of it to the point we pass on to our kids a snake.

[@wptx2827]

I find a lot of Canon Press content to be inside baseball, unnecessarily wordy, and confusing.

[@1Whipperin]

Yes, indeed. Doug likes to show off how clever he is with gobbledygook.

[@amo757]

What was the Confessing Church? I've never heard this term before.

[@Turnip2002]

1:32:50 If the Allied forces included the Soviet Union, not sure how you can make that statement. What the Soviets did pre WW2 and in their defeat of Germany was the most grotesque acts of war crimes in human history. Not to mention the 1.6 million Germans starved in Allied concentration camps after Germans defeat. And Morgenthau wanted 25 million Germans to be killed in Allied concentration camps.

[@shawngillogly6873]

Because the Western Allies were forced into fighting on the same side as Stalin, since Hitler invaded all Europe. Now, you may think we should've let them bleed each other more. But that would not have accomplished the end you wish. Stalin would've just signed a peace treaty and let Germany focus on the West. (Until it was convenient.)

[@kerrylawson7515]

People soft-pedal the Holodomor.

[@toddstevens9667]

Actually, I don’t think they were including the Soviet Union in that statement. I think they were specifically referring to American and British forces. I’m sure they weren’t really thinking about the Soviet Union at the moment they said that.

[@ConversationsThatMatterpodcast]

@@Turnip2002 Soviet Union was arguably worse than Germany in some ways.

[@dave1724]

@@kerrylawson7515 That is typical in America today because it was a Marxist idea put into practice which didn't work. Mao tried similar experiments and they didn't work either. Look at the Marxist ideas already at work in our country and then compare them to scripture. This is why it is important for Christians to be like minded and the current controversy in this episode is part of being like minded while following scripture.

[@Pastor_Grant]

Is that really his last name or did he change it to that? How does Mike McArthur sound?

[@BossBattle21]

Around 10:00. If I was a publisher and I thought that one of my authors was signaling "neo-swazis?" even 5% I wouldn't publish them. Let alone 20%.🤨

[@SimonJification]

Good luck! But I don't believe in luck. Jedis don't believe in luck.

[@opsword786]

What does any of this have to do with the salvation of souls? Shouldn't that be our focus?

[@KimberlyMurphy-mr7jd]

So… let’s say someone gets saved at age 8. They live to be 88. That’s 80 years here. Lots and lots of decisions and life to be lived, as a Christian. Every minute of the 80 years is not spent evangelizing. Christians need to know how to apply the Scriptures and their salvation to everyday life.

[@KalliBella1]

May I suggest the following in ref to "racial pride" : racial superiority.

[@shawngillogly6873]

Or: "Actual Animus against others based on no grounds but ethnicity."

[@conceptualclarity]

​@@shawngillogly6873the problem with that is that if one wishes to find grounds for animus it is hard not to. Jesus did not command us to forgive the ones worthy of being forgiven.

[@teamblair466]

“People are multifaceted…we affirm we naturally like our kinsman better…some not sees were okay.” How incoherent and silly. Repent of your red neck whiplash.