An Audiophile Classic... with "ONLY" 54 Parts? B&W 802 Matrix

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[@johnlindsay3820]

Amazing speakers - those early 800 series were way ahead of the competition at the time

[@blackdaan]

i still have my 802 80 series.. the previous owner had the crossover rebuild and they still sound gold to me .. amazing speakers even today

[@imqqmi]

Yeah same here, really interesting what's inside and types of drivers and how the box is constructed with modular design. This one had good bones and you worked your magic on them. Came out a winner 👍

[@paulyates1415]

Thank you once again - insightful. Thanks for sending the tube connectors to me over in U.K. i look forward to fitting them to my Bowers and Wilkins 603 S2 Anniversary Edition Speakers. Paul Yates - Yorkshire

[@stephenyoud6125]

Ayyup Paul, did you fit them yet? and do any other mods like rebuild the standard crossover with better parts. As it seems you only get decent crossover parts (from Mundorf in Germany) on the very top end B&W's. the other models seem to be the same garbage on display here. Of course this assumes the standard XO has a decent response - not to be assumed either with B&W. - Steve from Derbyshire, living in Germany

[@paulyates1415]

@@stephenyoud6125 Hi Stephen, i have not yet worked on 603 s2 aniv. if i can face the workload i would hard wire the drive units, bring cables out to standalone x-over wooden board which would have the existing components hard wired onto it, using ties and glue to support them. As the aniversary ed improved the components, i would start by not doing a x-over swapout of components. My previous project was a pair of 684 S1 which had the same treatment , they only had a basic 3 component x-over, 2 chokes and 1 cap for the tweeter. the improvement when completed could be characterised as 35% + improvement, it all "sings" and has a "confidence" in playing FLAC files that in certain respects surpasses the naim uniti 1 playing the 603 S2 aniv ed system. i used QED silver aniv cable throughout. Paul - Yorkshire

[@stephenyoud6125]

@@paulyates1415 Did you / would you just use the same components or get better quality ones like Danny advocates using? I've upgraded 3 pairs of Linn Tukan bookshelf speakers as wall mounted Atmos surrounds for my Home cinema room. I developed new crossovers using REW and a UMIK-1 mic and built them on the original XO boards using air cored inductors and PP caps mostly from Dayton audio and Jantzen, with wire wound resistors and small (o,1 or ).01nf) Cornell Dubilier 940C caps as bypass on both the Bass and Treble caps. These were selected based on the Cap reviews on the Humble Home Made HiFi site. Also replaced the steel nuts holding the speaker sockets to the PCB's with brass ones and used Polyolefin covered wire internally, and lined the insides with a No-Rez like material I got from Vibraplast in Switzerland before we moved to our new house in Germany in Oct 2022. Am doing the same with two pairs of Linn AV5110's for the ATMOS Ceiling height channels. Then - the same treatment to a fourth pair of Tukans (I might do one and send with the other unmodded tone to Danny for evaluation and inevitable correction ) and give these to my son. Oh what fun we have

[@kkrobertson1]

It would be nice to hear a before and after for the projects. One thing to see on paper another to hear it live.

[@dannyrichie9743]

And the only way to hear the real difference is to hear it live (and not through a compressed KZbin video).

[@kkrobertson1]

@@dannyrichie9743 its better than nothing

[@toby9999]

​@kkrobertson1 As much as I would love to hear the difference... YT is probably not good enough, though. Add to that... what type of audio equipment are people going to be listening with? They're likely not going to be hearing the live in room sound of the speakers.

[@dbaum3]

Through your headphones or computer speakers? It just doesn't work. Differences achieved could not be fairly judged...even some possibility the upgrade could sound worse since you're judging the change through your hardware, let alone YT compression etc.

[@ruk2023--]

@@kkrobertson1 It's probably worse because it will make you think they sound like whatever you're listening on.

[@John-jl9de]

I had the 801 Series 2 Matrix driven by a Krell KSA250 and enjoyed the sound for years until upgrading to the Wilson Watt Puppy 7, which I still have for 20 years and blows everyone away who hears the system. Accurate, powerful, musical and extremely pleasing in a wonderfully sounding room. The 802's are great speakers for the right room. Wish we had this upgrade back in 1989.

[@emmet7208]

Great job Danny! Love these videos, don't forget to show us nerds more internals and drivers! ; )

[@Woofy-tm8si]

I'd love to have Danny take a look at my Elac Adanté F61 towers but alas, the original shipping boxes were destroyed accidentally while in storage and I'm on the far left coast. Maybe one day... Great video as always. Danny is easily one of the most adept crossover techs in America and the best I've seen online, bar none. Thanks again for adding some common sense instead of snake oil and making this hobby better and more accessible for everyone.

[@stevemd8947]

I own the 801 Matrix Series 3. I still love these speakers. Series 1 and 2 were bright. Series 3 tamed the brightness. Plus the 801 Martrix Series 3 have to be lifted up at least 9" off the floor (with stands). These speakers sound horrible if left on the floor. Thank you Danny for the great analysis.

[@TheMirolab]

I have the 801 Series 2's and I've upgraded many of the crossover parts, but still adhering to the original design. I've improved them greatly. I find mine sound best when raised about 3.5 inches..... on nicely finished 4x4's. I have 6.5" stands for when I was using them on slab floor, but now they are on a raised wood floor, and they sound better raised 3.5".

[@stevemd8947]

@@dmahan8841 Well you are incorrect. 801 Matrix Series 1 and 2 were bright and had a beaming quality. The Series 3 which I bought in 1993 did not have this brightness. I had previously owned the 801FS in 1986 which was not bright. I was 32 when I purchased the 801FS. I am a very experienced B&W listener. So your age comment is totally siily. Why did you not ask me why I have not purchased the Natilus or Diamond series?

[@carlosoliveira-rc2xt]

​@@stevemd8947Why did you not purchase the Matrix 800? It blows away the 801. I bought them back in '91.

[@lukesena]

Wow, great job and great video Danny. Would be great to have a pair of 800-series to upgrade! 😉

[@lexicon612]

I had an entire B&W 600 series 1 Home theater back in the day. Metal dome tweeter's were always very fatiguing to my ears, but I didn't know any better. I cringe now thinking back to them and what crossover horror's must have been lurking inside. But, hey they were bulletproof. Those Kevlar drivers were Purdy.

[@johnsmith-i5j7i]

I have some metal done tweeters. Titanium. Don't sound hard at all. I have some soft done tweeters that are sibilant

[@lexicon612]

@@johnsmith-i5j7i I moved on to EPOS silk dome tweeter's and they were like the opposite of the B&W tweeter's. Even with 25.00 crossover's the EPOS tweeter's outperformed the B&W's no contest. I'm sure there are some tamed metal domes out there but I have yet to hear them. Besides after learning from Danny. I'm convinced, I don't know shit and have been listening to 25.00 crossover's my entire audio life. I'll be listening to my 1st real crossover as soon as Danny gets done designing them for me. I'm expecting the clouds to part and Angel's to start singing. For now just trying not to feel so stupid. My apologies to anyone who thought I knew something. I just thought I did. I'm learning just like everyone else.

[@kdomster9141]

Replace stock crossover Electolitics with quality copper foil cap and these tweeters will lose that shrill zippy sound and will warm up along with not being sibilant ... than do swap the resistors for better ones , than air core inductors and it will complete the transformation . Unfortunately these tweeters are drying out by now and lose output so finding a way to use new tweeter would be great ...

[@RennieAsh]

Drying out? You can replace ferrofluid ​@@kdomster9141

[@777jones]

The 600 series are great. I still use 600i as my main computer monitors. The 610i was excellemt, imo.

[@williamnaman3570]

The 801fc in 1980 had an aftermarket crossover that bypassed the internal. The protection circuit was backed up by 6v camping batteries. Silk dome tweeters. 2 banana inputs.

[@sloboat55]

Excellent vid, Danny. I wish I owned a pair so I could do the upgrade. The Sonicaps and No-rez transformed my Pedest'ale Tower speakers. The sound and form is impressive.

[@stephenyoud6125]

That’s good to hear. So you really did notice a worthwhile significant improvement just like Danny always says?

[@sloboat55]

@stephenyoud6125 yes, the overall effect was a cleaner, clearer, open dynamic that left me smiling.

[@stephenyoud6125]

@@sloboat55 great to hear, I bought the X-VOCE centre kit for my home cinema

[@MKBurkitt]

Danny, thanks for making these videos. I've learned so much from your explanations and examples. Just wanted to let you know your work is appreciated.

[@Starch1b2c3d4a]

The modular design is cool. GR should do something like that...

[@fonkenful]

One thing I remember from “back in the day” is that B&W featured in their advertisements the use of these as mixing monitors in high end recording studios. Never heard a pair sound particularly stellar then, which we tended to attribute to insufficient amplification. Even the latest of the 800 Nautilus derived models leave me with the same impressions- indeed my favourite of that crop remains the smallest 2-ways - I guess the more you ask of the crossover network, the harder it is to get it all right. Nice video, Danny.

[@ChicagoRob2]

Steve Albini, who recorded Nirvana, Robert Plant, Jimmy Page, etc., used B&W Matrix 805s for his mixing and mastering. I heard some of his masters on those speakers and they sounded amazing.

[@dannyrichie9743]

@@ChicagoRob2 Yep, and the 805's were loaded with budget level parts too.

[@TheMirolab]

B&W 801's and 802's have always been reference monitors in Abbey Road studios. You'll see them in all the pics and videos shot there. However, engineers working there may choose to use any number of near field monitors as primary mixing monitors.

[@crisfiler6128]

I believe Lucas Films Studio had the Nautilus 801 or 802 in their studio too.

[@sean_heisler]

Absolutely brilliant.

[@werefed8613]

Danny love your work. I did your rf 7ii upgrade and have never been happier. Those speakers are so Much easier to listen too now . I almost dropped lots of $$ on a different part and glad I didn’t. My next pair will be Tyler acoustics.

[@roofermarc1]

I have the series 3 and listed them for sale. I then found Troels Gravenson crossover upgrade and bought the parts and built them. These series 3 are amazing for me so much that I'm considering buying Jupiter copper foils and/or Dueland cast and building outboard units. This is crazy for me though to spend over 5,000 for this on a 1800 speaker.

[@tbirdsteve1]

Fantastic and very interesting. Somebody please send Danny some Jamo Concert VII's.

[@viktorcieslar9776]

Na tebe je kamaráde radost se vždy dívat. ❤

[@fabilichusaquaman4263]

I used to have the 802 S3. Best speaker I haver ever had. Only problem was finding the right amp for them. But when I did the sound was so amazing.

[@mookieharper1957]

I have the 802 S3. What amp do you recommend?

[@DavidCro8]

@@mookieharper1957 I use the Aragon 8008bb

[@spqr369]

@@mookieharper1957 McIntosh MC462 and use the 4 ohms tap.

[@TheMirolab]

Oh this one was SO close! I've had Matrix 801 Series 2's for 25 years, which have the same Mid/Tweet pod, but atop a fat 12" woofer. They are glorious, if flawed, speakers!! I've upgraded many of the parts over the years, but not the design... and I'm still using all the original ferrite core inductors! Most shocking upgrade was changing the 0.5 ohm resistor on the tweeter to a Mills resistor, and it improved the signal to the tweeter so much, I had to increase it to 1.5 ohms to get the tweeter back in line. (by ear... no measurements). If it weren't for the shipping of a 120 lbs, I'd consider a GR upgrade. I think Danny said he did and Active-woofer design for my speaker, but not a fully passive one.

[@dannyrichie9743]

We designed an upgrade for the B&W 801 Series 80 model.

[@carlosoliveira-rc2xt]

110lbs

[@thecarman3693]

I have the 801 S2 Matrix (12" cone woofer) and gutted the crossovers. They were replaced with custom NorthCreek external crossovers --- I say custom because I had NorthCreek re-design the output signals so that a pair of wires went directly to each driver in each cabinet. Two pair of wires went from each monoblock amp into the crossovers and then 3 pairs went to each cabinet. The speakers are mounted to Sound Anchor stands having 3 IsoAcoustics Gaia footers. Needless to say they still sound fantastic.

[@PaulSelka-b9b]

Good job Danny, sure the owner will be very happy for years to come!

[@hitchpaprocki2649]

I just bought a pair just like those today! I'm super interested in that x over redesign.

[@LynnMitchell-wk7po]

Glad to see this, I have a 802 Series 80 which is the previous model. It sounds good, but does have a noticeable lack of clarity at the top. A recap, new resistors, coils and wire has been on my project list for a while. The wire and connectors are really horrible in mine, 20 ga wire at best. Getting that top pod wired would be a challenge because of the swivel. I would send it to you but the freight would be a killer, by the time it is packed it is probably north of 100 lbs.

[@pauldavies6037]

Some studios use B&W speakers of the similar range hope they are logged on to Danny's site and send them in for upgrade!

[@lotus72e]

I remember listening to these and their smaller brother 803 during the same era these were sold. I never liked the sound of their kevlar midrange and alu dome tweeter. I thought the midrange sounded too «dry» and the dome tweeter to «harsh». This upgrade is top notch though and I am sure it will sound smoother and more transparent than before. Another fine job done here Danny!🎉

[@MichelLinschoten]

I actually owned them 20 years ago I always liked them for what they are. Pretty tame sounding speakers but virtually no fatigue . They are way to inflated now on the price

[@AllHandlesHaveBeenTaken]

Amazing job. Brilliant. I have series 3 which has a different xover and 801 series 2. I have been looking at upgrades in the cross overs. At a bare minimum replacing the electrolytics or Van Alstine upgrade on the 801s. I would love some direction on that

[@dannyrichie9743]

I am pretty sure Van Alstine makes electronics, and they are real big on using high end parts either.

[@evilmonstertruck]

This thing probably sounds amazing now. Wowowowowow

[@kevintomb]

They actually sounded quite good at time of release also. These were not some subpar speaker by any means. But 30 year old parts are NOT always the exact same they were when new, so age "could" factor in also.

[@evilmonstertruck]

@kevintomb OH I'm sure they weren't terrible but with what he did and the quality of everything it's probably insanely good now

[@mikeconnor3602]

​@@kevintombI loved these speakers along with the 801s, I couldn't afford either and bought the DM2000, still love them

[@jasontimothywells9895]

Danny , you are a mastermind, i had a pair of 802 gen 1 . I only used them for a couple weeks before i boxed them up and stuck in my room for the unhappy choices in gear . My old Mission and Miller & Kreisel speakers was my favorites . If i did not loose my home in a wildfire back in 2003 i would have a couple dozen pairs of old high end speakers i would have sent to you in these days . God knows your passion and is backing you i feel . You are a mad scientist sir and i give you a low bow . I would love to work for you if you was ever in need of help in your business. . Cheers

[@MikkelGrumBovin]

Straight up top-notch video !

[@jameshobbs1460]

Nice video Danny. Well thought out and just the facts. Sure they are good sounding speakers but they can be great. The tech in the speakes is always top notch. I've often wondered what that "grate" noise was when I listened to them on certian tracks. Now I know. Keep em comming.

[@Ricky-cl5bu]

I’d depends what you match them with and what sound you like warm and dynamic or thin and lifeless like it would be with a level frequency path 😊

[@stephensams709]

Great video! I just wonder if there is any speaker that you can buy that has a good price no object crossover. It seems that all speakers go on the cheap side when it comes to building crossovers. I know that just by buying better parts from Danny improved my speakers 100%. There was no redesign, just better quality parts. At first I didn't use the tube connectors, but when I did get around to installing them, I could hear more detail and less smearing than I had heard before. The soundstage even had kind of a 3D quality compared to before.

[@dannyrichie9743]

It's funny how a lot of little things add up to not being so little anymore, and thanks for posting the feedback on the tube connectors.

[@MarkB6203]

So good to see one of my favorite speakers get this level of attention; now, if only we could find someone close to Danny's with B&W 803 series 2 loudspeakers, we could solve another diamond-in-the-rough... I just can't make sense of shipping speakers from Canada, but I'm always hoping these would get to go thru the GR Research treatment. Another great video!!

[@TriAmpMyFi]

Yup, Ebay is now trending B&W 802 searches......................................

[@bobsykes]

Nice result. I would prefer to see it measure at 2 meter for such a large speaker, but the dispersion is so good before and after it probably doesn’t matter much. You would like B&W’s later top end speakers. I owned a pair of 802D’s and they had 100% air core inductors, all Mundorf foil and film caps, and power resistors in aluminum heat sink enclosures that were bolted to the huge aluminum base structure for thermal stability. They definitely stepped up the part quality to the best available in,after years. Your project looks like an amazing value given the modest used market price of this model these days. 👍

[@dannyrichie9743]

After getting the 1 meter measurements I moved out to 56" away to make sure the results were the same.

[@mikeconnor3602]

I have the B&W DM2000 since 1984 and am constantly blown away by their soundstage, imagining, air and depth. For years I drove them with a Hafler 220 Amp but lately drive them with an Adcom. Wow the Adcom really opened them up. Supposedly they are 'time aligned' and the frequency range plot that came with them was very flat. This video has grabbed my attention. Have you ever analyzed a set of DM2000's? Is there anything I can do to improve them? I am about to modify my 40 year old Hafler 220 with components from Musical Concepts. Thank you.

[@thomprd]

I wonder how much of the improvement would come just from replacing the binding posts and internal wiring. I'm also really wondering what the network in my N801's looks like. I bet I can find a picture online somewhere...

[@dannyrichie9743]

It is just as bad as what you see here.

[@jeremiahchamberlin4499]

I have a set of the B&W 801 Matrix Series 2 with a 12” woofer. The entire crossover board was replaced and tied into existing wires to both terminals and speakers. Didn’t realize the terminals were steel; their finish makes them look like copper or brass. Edit: Parts count is closer to yours with 5 inductors and several large capacitors, two sand core resistors, at least two wire-wound. Board seemed fairly full.

[@TheMirolab]

I believe Danny was also counting the parts that drive the protection circuitry, which have nothing to do with the crossover. On my 801's, I have bypassed the protection relays.

[@IliyaOsnovikov]

Aluminum PCB traces? Had Danny ever heard about tinned copper?

[@dannyrichie9743]

Yes....

[@t-mar9275]

That was my immediate thought too. It might even be Cu-Ni-Sn, but there's definitely Cu traces under the plating. That's evident from the component side images, where the traces appear brownish through the pale green of the fibreglass substrate.

[@kdomster9141]

Even replacing solder from it and replacing with quality one would make a diff in clarity

[@dannyrichie9743]

I pulled it out and checked it. This one is tinned Copper.

[@d.j.wiendels6572]

It's the industry standard, aluminium would be more expensive

[@MichielvanderMeulen]

I still have them here... dying to get the upgrade!

[@gdwlaw5549]

greetings from France! I like these loudspeakers.

[@christianblumke3600]

I have bought a pair 3 months ago and after some hearing sessions I really thought to sell the 802. But now I think the can have another chance. .Hope I can get the upgrade kit to germany.

[@dannyrichie9743]

We can send you the whole kit. You can order it straight from our site.

[@Audiojunkabus]

I had the 801sfrom 1993 ish--2020... best all-around sounding but the hardest speaker to drive (that I have had)

[@cremersalex]

Many classical recordings have been mixed on the 801 (Abbey Road Studios).

[@DetlefSeewald]

Hello, your work done with this speaker is impressive. I'm just wondering why the manufacturer didn't design the crossover-module the way you did. These speaker had been quiet expensive though I would have expected a better original crossover-module. One explanation could be, that the speaker chassis after more than 30 years had changed there parameters.. But I think you did different crossover-design from basic with different crossover-frequencies. Thanks for this video. Best wishes, Detlef

[@stevieg2755]

Great work Danny,I got a tee shirt I need to get out to you

[@ChicagoRob2]

Looks like the new response is +/- 1 dB, which is very flat and more than good enough to mix/master recordings. They should sound amazing with the upgraded crossover.

[@bartvanransbeeck1341]

Top modification , amazing

[@SteveSutherland9]

Hey all - great videos & awesome upgrades, Just a suggestion, with mostly black speakers & with a black background, it's sometimes hard to see the layout & dimensions in the videos. Could a spotlight or different color background maybe be used? Maybe the contrast needs adjustment. Thanks

[@dannyrichie9743]

Our new room will be better.

[@BoRerunn]

Awesome series of videos 😎👍🏼 are powered speakers like the Klipsch Nines , can they be upgraded.

[@hoth2112]

Powered speakers typically cannot be upgrades as the crossover is built into the amplifier. Some models do use an amp with a passive crossover but it's pretty uncommon.

[@wheelbasemedia5814]

I've owned a pair of 804 Nautilus since new and I wonder if they can be upgraded to match the newer D3 and D4 variants, assuming they're better, of course.

[@DbeeSapphire]

I have Nautilus 804s, although the speakers are rated 8 ohms, they actually fluctuate between 4 and 8, stated in the pamphlet that came with the speakers. I picked up a Parasound amp that can handle that issue, and now they sound great. I do wish the bass was a bit stronger on these speakers. Really finicky speakers though, needed updates on speaker cables and interconnects

[@trevorbartram5473]

Hi Danny, that's great re-engineering of a speaker definitely worthy of one of your upgrades. I wonder what's inside a Nautilus?

[@blackdaan]

i wonder would this work with 80s or matrix 3 model?

[@fredthompson1279]

Impressive.

[@naldsarmas8584]

Just curious to know, if the tools used to measure this speaker were available when this speaker was manufactured?

[@dannyrichie9743]

Not the version that I have, but this type of measuring equipment was available at the time.

[@chrislesnar]

Hopefully someone sends in the JBL250TI. I'd love to see Danny's measurements/thoughts/upgrades for it.

[@greglandesman3741]

Did we ever get measurements of the new crossover Klipple?

[@dannyrichie9743]

Measurements of the speakers after the upgrade have been posted.

[@abboberg]

If this were 2 years ago, I would have jumped on this, but I bought other speakers. Think about it: you can buy these speakers used for around $2K, and they might need new crossovers, anyway, so get the GR Research re-design instead. You'd get some serious hifi for pretty low bucks compared to what is offered even today.

[@MartinHAndersen]

I would really like to see the entire process.

[@SteadyRolling]

Will you be making a kit for newer versions of this speaker?

[@socksumi]

The new crossover while generating a flatter response also slightly elevates the tweeter's response a bit especially with it's small treble peaks at 5500 and 8500 hz. This means that in typical listening rooms the modified 802 will sound noticeaby brighter with less heaviness in the bass than in stock form. A flat anechoic response typically translates into a somewhat brighter treble in room response. This is normal and I've I heard this effect on the big Dunlavy speakers designed for astonishingly flat anechoic response. They have a subjectively elevated treble unless your room is acoustically very dead. I believe Edgar Villchur of AR said that for a speaker to have a flat response in a typical listening room it needs to be designed with a slight downward trending response into the treble when measured anechoically. Just putting it out there for fans who like the stock 802's rich bass and somewhat polite treble which is what stock 802s and 801s sound like.

[@dannyrichie9743]

Actually a flat response is more accurate and it will have a more rolled off in room response. Voicing it down in the off axis will cause too much of a drop to the in room response. So these will not at all sound bright. The Dunlavy's have a crapload of felt around the drivers to kill any off axis response. So they sound very similar in any room they are in, but you have to stay on axis and keep them pointed at you head for them to work.

[@socksumi]

@@dannyrichie9743 No the opposite is true for the treble. A room's reverberant qualities always energizes treble frequencies more so than the midrange. You may be thinking of bass frequencies below 100 hz or so as they get boosted by boundary reinforcement (floor and walls). But above above that there is definitely a brightening trend in room unless the room is heavily damped which most people don't have. Anechoic or acoustically dead rooms always sound dimmer at treble frequencies than rooms with any amount of reflective surfaces.

[@toby9999]

​@@socksumiI would have thought a typical listening room with drapes, furniture, carpets, and sundry other items would such out some of the treble?

[@DavidDarrow]

What are the chances of you giving the 801 or 802 Series 3 a look? Wouldn't mind taking mine to the next level.

[@dannyrichie9743]

We work on whatever is sent in.

[@skootydoo]

I have the same speakers, the only difference being the cabinet is black instead of wood grain. They sound great still, but would part with them for the right price. They’re very, very heavy.

[@SuperMcgenius]

I remember these, they had some good points, but I found them harsh . Your Examination verified what I was hearing years ago, thanks and good work

[@luisrodriguez8639]

That 802 is one of the most accurate speakers in the 90s, I only found a little bump at 300 hz like if the cabinet of the woofers needed to be 20 percent bigger but very musical sound, I see you put it to sing even better

[@ingoweber1406]

@dannyrichie9743 In an upgrade like this, where do the biggest gains come from - better design or better parts. I am asking because I own these speakers. Some years ago, I installed a new crossover, strictly following the original schematic, but with much better parts (no high end stuff, though). Sound quality improved significantly, but the sound profile was unchanged. Would it be worth changing to your crossover design, or am I already almost there?

[@WoodstockG54]

I owned one of those in the 90s. Found them picky with amplification. They didn’t move me.

[@davidhester9897]

Nice work Danny. I know you straightened it out in the crossover but thinking about the design of that midrange pod, should they have just made the box longer and add the midrange in there to prevent the wrap around baffle loss at around 1000hz? Would that be a better approach and better for sound rather than making the adjustment in the crossover?

[@CashGravel]

Notice how far back the woofer pod is located on top of the lower cabinet for time alignment

[@davidhester9897]

@@CashGravel Good point, that comes into play as well.

[@TheMirolab]

There is always a baffle step loss to contend with. It just happens at lower frequency with a bigger baffle. There is a great benefit to minimum baffle... .the sound is very open and less "boxy".

[@CashGravel]

@@TheMirolab and yet I’ve heard open baffles that sound absolutely stunning with fairly large baffles. I switched to Maggie’s for now lol

[@mcgjohn22]

I remember when these were current. Never cared for the sound of the Kevlar midrange or the tweeters on the 801s; had not listened to this model much. Would have been interesting if you could have snapped a few pics of the cabinet inside and added them to the video. Those Kevlar drivers were eye catching back then. Completely different "looking" than anything else out.

[@kikkikolsenbroberg1932]

Thank you again . I onestly thought it had the best parts in quality ,in their crossovers. In all those years . 🤔😅

[@damienwright2483]

Another great video 👍 I'm curious though, you always talk about the quality of parts and steel nuts on the binding posts etc, so better parts = better sound. But how does that relate to active speakers? All that signal has to pass through a board full of cheap steel parts...right? So if that is the case, are passive speakers with really good parts better than any active speakers for clarity and depth? I'm genuinely curious as I make my own speakers and I'm always trying to improve my knowledge.

[@dannyrichie9743]

Everything that you have learned about passive speakers regarding parts quality, also applies to active speakers. Most commercially available active speakers are bottlenecked by crappy amps too.

[@damienwright2483]

@@dannyrichie9743 I see, so is it possible to get good results with active speakers or is it always limited to the quality of the dsp board? I've been considering making a new pair of speakers, small ones that I would really struggle to fit a passive crossover into, would it be better to have an external passive crossover or go down the active route instead?

[@dannyrichie9743]

@@damienwright2483 Doing an active system right is a lot more difficult and a lot more expensive.

[@damienwright2483]

@@dannyrichie9743 personally I prefer passive speakers, and I'm not sure I have the tools to learn to do it properly if it isn't straight forward, maybe in the future, but following your comment I'll probably stick to passive anyway 😆, thanks 👍

[@nabildanial00]

Danny, previously you didn't attempt to upgrade the Harbeth P3ESR due to parts count. Why did you redesign this model and not the Harbeths? Pretty sure you could've tried if you wanted to. It's just a 2 way speaker.

[@CashGravel]

He said the same thing about some elac towers I had. Simply replacing the parts was too costly if he just use the original design, which was fine I think in this case he totally redesigned every part of the crossover so he could control that better.

[@rikardekvall3433]

The new parts would take up to much of the inside. The capacitors and AirCore inductors would not fit. He talked about a external crossover, but the parts count would push the price thru the roof.

[@dannyrichie9743]

The reason was there appeared to be a lot of notch filters being used to control the drivers problems. Drivers with that many parts parts often need that many parts to fix all of those issue. In this case the crossover wasn't that complex but they used a lot of parts in two protection circuits that were really not necessary.

[@dannyrichie9743]

@@CashGravel The Elac towers used some really large value caps in the circuit to limit the range of the lower woofers while allowing the upper to play up to the tweeter. Some of those big valued caps (and coils) would still be needed even if I redesigned it. Those big values really add up cost wise even if just using budget level poly caps. I think there were a few 200uF values needed. That really makes the upgrade costly. At some point it makes more sense to just build a new speaker. I tend to use our X Series models as a benchmark too. If it is cheaper to just build out one of those models and the end result is far better than the cost of polishing something that will never reach that performance level, well then, it just isn't worth it.

[@CashGravel]

@@dannyrichie9743 yes I remember you telling me that. Got lucky and sold them for a good price.

[@jimmbonz]

Great video, when doing measurements you mention you do it at tweeter level, how far out from the front baffle?

[@dannyrichie9743]

One this one we started at 1 meter to get a reference then moved out to 56".

[@NaveedKhan-bs1sc]

Would love a look at the polk reserve r600.

[@hoth2112]

If someone wants to send us one, we will. We've already looked at the L600 but not the R600.

[@EskWIRED]

You mentioned some challenges installing the no rez. What is the optimal way to apply it? My guess is that large pieces towards the center of the panel is best. Is that correct?

[@dannyrichie9743]

We use it to cover any panel that is also an exterior wall. Covering the center of each panel is a must. Panels are most resonant at the point furthest from each edge or brace.

[@TonicofSonic]

Using similiar materials in vehicles I would say yes as a general rule you want as large of piece as possible starting from the center of an area. You also want a firm application. Using a roller is best. I have also used car products inside and outside of speakers with reasonably good results. Very much dampens the sound to make the speakers sound bigger and cleaner, albeit everything is a trade off for something. The big question is what is the trade off. Depends on the speaker and the use.

[@TheMirolab]

I think Danny was referring to this 802 specifically, as the internal Matrix bracing is very extensive! Look up some old promo pictures. I don't think the cabs need it. They are super solid, and he does not mention the "Fibercrete" midrange enclosure which is extremely dense & heavy.

[@The340king]

I listened to these back when they were new at a store. They were good sounding, but the position/room they were in wasn't ideal. That same week, I listened to the Mezzo Utopia Focals in a properly setup room and was blown away. The thing that stands out in these videos is that the measurements crowd would argue that a flat response is all that is needed, because the measurements don't lie. Nothing could be further from the truth, but that contradicts the foundation of their superiority complex. Great video.

[@ChicagoRob2]

Some people like colored speakers.

[@analoglooney]

@@ChicagoRob2 Just as well as all speakers are colored. The least colored being a Quad electrostatic, nothing in a box comes close.

[@dennycote6339]

Could you build this with just non filter parts and tri amp it?

[@julian65886]

When will the upgrade kit be available? I have the same exat speaker.

[@dannyrichie9743]

You can order it online: gr-research.com/product/bw-802-s2-upgrade-kit/

[@Finite-Tuning]

I've often wondered about stacked or just well positioned, tube enclosure speaker cabinets. I mean, you can almost fix all of the box problems by turning a square into a circle. I think B&W makes a version of what I'm thinking already, but I've never had the opportunity to listen to one and probably never will. But at least on paper and in my mind, a bunch of tubular enclosures just make good sense. The only real "if" factor I can foresee is the tubular material itself. Anyway, looking at this just made me think of that, out loud. Cheers 🍻

[@RennieAsh]

Tapered tubes.

[@Finite-Tuning]

@@RennieAsh : Yes, something like that is what I'm picturing. Just makes perfect sense for an enclosure without the box.

[@MARVELOUDIO]

In a typ medium sized room placing the LS along the short room side gives much to much side wall reflections! Check it out in the same room change LS and listener position! You will be shockingly surprised about the difference(s)....

[@Henrico11]

Hi Danny, did you also measure the speakers with the grilles on? I am curious if that makes a significant difference in the response. With the grilles on, they definitely look much nicer.

[@RennieAsh]

Nothing with the woofers, might do a little with the mid, though seeing as they are wire frame it may not have as much as an impact as many solid MDF frames

[@TheMirolab]

The grills are only removable from the mid and woofer,. Due to the low frequencies and good frame design, they do not affect the sound at all.

[@veroman007]

wow. i'd like to hear you state the price just for informational purposes... the 801 was the first hi ender i heard back in the day. i was floored

[@dannyrichie9743]

We'll have the price of the upgrade kit on the website by Monday.

[@daveapex493]

I got the smaller version of these. Of course, just speculating, but mine seem to not open up until I play them at a louder volume. Almost feels like I have to push them before they sound good. Is it possible with the original crossover, it is like pushing water through a kinked hose because of the cheese? Thanks

[@johndavidson5075]

In the before measurements you comment on how they are humped up in the presence region but the hump is still there in the after graph. How come you didn’t bring them down a bit at around 10k? Likely sound bright and shouty.

[@dannyrichie9743]

The whole top end is practically flat. There is barely a 1db wiggle across the top.

[@ryanm1983]

What is the speaker in the background? Looks like m165 and lgk drivers?

[@dannyrichie9743]

Top secrete new model that sets a new standard for vocal accuracy, and imaging. Stay tuned.

[@carlos2bass]

Hi there, I enjoy watching your videos keep the good work. When it comes to binding posts it seems like the problem is frequently the magnetic nuts; would it be a good solution to just change those and not the whole binding post?

[@dannyrichie9743]

You could and it would be an improvement, or you can just swap all of it out for tube connectors and get a much larger improvement.

[@MrBonger88]

I remember how much I liked this generation of B&W’s . I just don’t feel the same about the newer ones. Not that they’re bad, it’s just a matter of taste

[@oldphrt]

Swap out the electrolytics for polyprops, job done. (not those in the protection circuit).

[@jakobgooijer]

Although B&W has very good speakers in there range nowadays, i never heard them sing like other brands. The brother of a friend owns a pair 802D . Yes they sound good but i never experienced the goosebumps 😮

[@NotAnAudiophilePodcast]

Aloomanim circuit board? Come on Danny.... How the heck would you solder to it?

[@haycrossaudio5474]

How many of those '54 parts' were on the protection circuits?

[@dannyrichie9743]

About half of them.

[@haycrossaudio5474]

@@dannyrichie9743 Worked on these and early KEFs with a similar unnecessary protection circuit in line. Why manufacturers put this junk in the signal path is beyond me. They know its wrong. Great work Danny

[@analoglooney]

@@haycrossaudio5474 They have to weigh up the chances of drivers being destroyed under warranty by idiots with weedy amps. Yes , it's not theoretically good for the sound but studios and headbangers do abuse the speakers. I had a customer who fried 3 pairs of Wharfedale 507's in one day and we had to keep giving him a new pair under warranty. You can go out of business very quickly with people like that. Repaired or not, they're an open box product. The voice coils of the bass drivers were welded to the pole piece, and the plastic cones had melted. The tweeter inductors had melted too. A bad idea? maybe not.

[@dharminderkalsi2311]

Danny - when optimizing crossover, do you optimize for 1 meter, or for 2.5/3.0m - which maybe more typical listening distance?

[@dannyrichie9743]

for larger speakers like this I refence the level at 1 watt/1 meter them move further away for additional measured responses and design work.

[@larrygaines7462]

We be on the same page. Short cables hand wired Hand soldered. Cabinet like a skyscraper. No ports, open baffle from 700hz to 5000hz. Still need ideas and parts. Going to call yall next week. I miss my 'shop',scope etc. But terminal and live at level 2+ pain. Too late to do a channel, carry on

[@jondonnelly3]

Well worth doing. Lovely looking speakers. Not some cheap tat where upgrade cost more than the worth.

[@DQ-su6qf]

Wonder how Danny liked the Dahlquist dq10’s…,

[@mariokolenko4322]

What is that speaker behind you?

[@dannyrichie9743]

Something new that will set new benchmarks.