An Honest Conversation About Colonialism and Australia's History with Nigel Biggar

[@Bikerman2022]

So comforting to see there are real journalists in the next generations! Just asking questions then listening rather than pushing her personal agenda. Thanks Zoe!

[@SimonJHeath]

Bravo,

[@royevetts4900]

Ashamed....of what exactly? Being a colonial power? Facilitating the industrial revolution? For standing against the only fascist power that desired to rule Europe? That stood against the Japanese Imperial Army? That built Australia with all the freedoms it has? That stopped infanticide, matricide and cannibalism on different continents? etc etc etc NO.

[@Jonno2020]

too right

[@Paz133]

ashamed? should be proud

[@DieFlabbergast]

You forgot: the first country to not only ban slavery and the slave trade in its own territories and from its own ports, but the first to actively devote a portion of its naval expenditure for well over 100 years to stamping out slavery all across the globe.

[@royevetts4900]

@@DieFlabbergast no I didn't....I just didn't mention it etc etc etc

[@Threeredbells]

It's a standard thing. The claim is actually who's standards are higher and morally superior. The fact the Aryans found first Australia is irrelevant then the Moors then the Portuguese then the Quan then the Spanish then the Dutch then the French then the English over the last 1500 years it would be hard to say who the oppressor is. It's probably the people that built the cities under the cities we have founded today. I'd say it was the Moors aka Murray Murri Maori Mauri who did the oppressing and felt today cry injustice for the removal of their slaves and ultimate demise. And subsequent leveling of totalitarian powers and rise of British imperial powers based from voluntary service and not conscription.

[@ianwynne764]

Hello Quillette:I used to have a friend whose father was Sri Lankan. My friend said that his father thought that the British colonisation was the best thing which ever happened to Sril Lanka. My friend's father went through the British educational system and became a cardiologist. I replied "Yes, it's better than working on a tea plantation." Have a lovely day.

[@willard39]

Yeah, I hate this version of presentism where we have to all take a knee because our ancestors did what all societies did - fought for resources. No civilization on Earth didn't swallow up smaller ones. No civilization has no slavery past (maybe not in their current form, but in their past, there's slavery). Ignoring that, we lose important lessons. I'm not saying we should be proud, but we shouldn't wallow in it nor forget it either. What's worse than a colonial past? A global intifada future. Tearing down Western Civilization is never the answer.

[@JoeHale-q7u]

I would also note that no hunter gatherer society in history has ever been able to withstand conquest by a technological civilization with an expanding population in search of more land and natural resources.

[@My_King_KM]

Deception rarely involves outright lying, but rather, the strategic presentation of carefully curated facts which suit a chosen narrative. Post-colonialist literature is not completely false, but it serves neomarxist revolutionary goals and therefore needs to be countered by presenting the inconvenient facts that they have chosen to omit from their historical perspectives. Thanks for enriching the popular narrative with additional facts.

[@SimonJHeath]

Outstanding,

[@2011Matz]

Cannibalism was common in the Torres Strait, New Guinea, Fiji, and New Zealand before colonial period.

[@4570george]

AND Australia! This has been brushed under the rug.

[@richardsaunders3743]

@@4570george Right on!

[@trevorcook4439]

Zoe, well done! Not in a patronising way! Filled me with hope.

[@Quillette]

That’s wonderful to hear

[@baconsarny-geddon8298]

I'm pretty indifferent on the question of an Australian republic; I could live with either option.. But something I DO feel more passionate about, is Australia having an American-style Bill of Rights, with clear, explicit protections for stuff like freedom of speech, explicit limits on government power, etc. (ideally, I'd LIKE an Australian version of the 2nd amendment, if I wrote the rules... But that seems kinda unrealistic) I won't pretend to know the ins and outs of how to achieve that (Would it be possible, as a constitutional monarchy, to introduce a Bill of Rights?), but whatever is necessary for a bill of rights, I support.

[@tmorganriley]

Speaking as an American, I have very good news: you certainly can have it in a constitutional monarchy! Our 1791 "Bill of Rights" in the USA was in fact based heavily off of the 1689 English Bill of Rights (instituted as part of the Glorious Revolution of 1688-89), the assent to which was a condition for William & Mary being given the throne. That series of events was the definitive point from which England---and its succesor states in Great Britain and the UK---forever after became a constitutional monarchy of limited powers. In addition to making it the constitutional law of the land that all ministers, officials, and so forth have to uphold (and all their laws, actions, etc.), you just then include a promise to uphold and defend said bill or charter of rights during the coronation oath, which is the "contract", if you will, between sovereign and subjects. Mind you, our constitutional rights here in the USA were the product of an additional 100+ years innovation and reflection in the 18th c. (i.e between 1689 to 1791). AND then had to be figured out what exactly they actually meant over the next two centuries (+) via our peculiar system of judicial review. That is the hard part; but if Australia is still using a Common Law system (as we do here in some 49 of the 50 US states and at the Federal level; Louisiana as I understand it uses its Napoleonic French Civil Law system)), it shouldnt be too hard to get started. And you would have the advantage of learning from our many mistakes.

[@marc21091]

@@tmorganriley The 1689 Bill of Rights is a key stage in the development of constitutional monarchy under the rule of law. This guided first England, then from 1707 the United Kingdom. It has in effect been applied from the 1840s introduction of 'responsible government' in the self-governing colonies of British North America (Canada), Australia and NZ, and then the independence of each of those countries under a shared constitutional monarch - Dominion status 1867/1901/1907, and finally the 1931 Statute of Westminster that confirmed each was independent.

[@daudanona7181]

And the Bill of Rights helps who? Rights are merely symbolic until the consequence is reframed from its limits.

[@awf6554]

Agree 100% with his thoughts on the constitutional monarchy. As well as the UK, Canada, New Zealand, the Netherlands, Denmark, Norway, and Sweden all function very well as constitutional monarchies.

[@MM-qq8eu]

This would all be different if our schools actually taught Australian history in the curriculum. It is all by design.

[@chazlewis8114]

Really great interview. It's really useful to hear the opinions of someone with so much knowledge about the history of the world.

[@davidhurley2656]

Interesting conversation. Thank you for speaking about both historical context and the issues driving current discord.

[@awf6554]

Zoe is correct about the Arabs in southeast Asia. Indonesia and Malaysia didnt become Islamic out of nowhere.

[@stanleywang89]

Fantastic interview by Zoe !!

[@ellobo4211]

Every country has been colonised ..I think the positive takeaway on Australia's colonialism is the shift on the human moral compass applied to the natives..

[@brettsimpson1505]

Thank you.

[@rizzlervontrappe1515]

You can’t dismiss colonialism without acknowledging all its triumphs, which far outweigh its transgressions.

[@Jonno2020]

This land was lucky to have the British, it could've been disastrous if it was the Spanish or other hostile empires. The Spanish didn't bother with Australia, the natives didn't wear precious metals or have anything of value. The British invested in Australia.

[@jaythefox]

The Aboriginal people had a good life before colonisation. But I agree with you that if it wasn't the British invading Australia it could've been some more evil power like fascist Spain. The achilles heel of the Aboriginal people was that they didn't have modern defence capabilities like mass military forces, war ships, etc. The harsh reality of geopolitics is that if you want peace, you must prepare for war.

[@asgardian001]

@@jaythefoxHow do you know that? The aboriginals did not have a written record and their oral history is dubious at best. We do know there was infanticide, records of some cannibalism, and warring between tribes. The idea of the noble savage is erroneous. Australia has a harsh climate and without the benefits of agriculture the Aborigines being destined to always being hunter gatherers before colonialism never thrived as such as can be seen by the population their population never getting above 500K - 750K despite exisiting in Australia for some 65,000 years.

[@jakeundy5962]

@@asgardian001your British education is serving the British well

[@jaythefox]

@@asgardian001 It’s not “noble savage”. Aboriginal culture has certain objective merits, having lasted for thousands of years. You can’t compare it to, say, the Māori who arrived in New Zealand more recently. I recommend you read Yunkaporta’s book Sand Talk to understand the wealth of Aboriginal thinking. The land was in many ways better off with fewer people. Look at the uproar now over our immigration levels! That said I’m not anti-European or anti-British. The British culture has some great merits as well.

[@hexane8]

​@@jaythefoxnuanced! Usually there's just a dressed up rehash of the American two tribes game that's destroying us.

[@RobRichards584]

What an interesting chat, thankyou.

[@Quillette]

You are welcome, I’m glad you enjoyed it.

[@bigtone667]

Great interview.

[@AndrewMacFarlane-d2n]

One shudders to think if the Belgians under King Leopold claimed Australia. His regime made the English look like choir boys. Come to think of it the Portuguese and Spanish weren't far behind.

[@Boababa-fn3mr]

I'm ashamed of the extinction of the Tasmanian tiger, Tasmanian emu and Tasmanian aborigines. I'm not ashamed of the British Empire, though. Yes, the British constitutional monarchical system and other similar systems are effectively already republics.

[@Bluepilled-c5t]

You want to drop those first three things too.

[@urielpolak9949]

Almost colonized by the french??!! The dutch first

[@richardsaunders3743]

There were landfalls on the western and northern side of the Australian continent by Dutch sailors - often in service of VOE - en route to Indonesia. As well as the Tasman expedition, among others, making landfall at present day Tasmania and New Zealand. There was, however, no follow up with garrisons of any sort. Similar story for other European powers. Fast forward to 1780's. A near run thing, considering the matter of the ill-fated La Parouse expedition, under the aegis of the soon to toppled absolutist French monarchy. Arthur Phillip RN receives instructions relating to his appointment as first Governor of the nascent colony of New South Wales. Including the matter of dealing with Aborigines, to 'live in amity and kindness with them', and to punish anyone acting to 'wantonly destroy them, or give them any unnecessary interruption in the exercise of their several occupations'. Personnel for the colony including, in large measure, those convicted of criminal offenses in England. That of Palaeolithic hunter-gatherers meeting Western peoples was, of course, not without challenges, and all who migrated to the Australian continent were, alas, not on board with enlightened concepts.

[@AnneNovelly]

The Spanish & Portuguese South America arrival is much longer ago than the British arriving in Australia.

[@marysalerno467]

It was the "colonists" that brought the wheel to Australia.

[@michrich2000]

Excellent interview.

[@roystewart9995]

I like how far we've come I'm an Australian Aboriginal and there were bad things that happened in our past but we want to live in a strong and liveable country in peace and have respect for each other. I don't want division, we are all in this little boat called Australia together so let's just make this a really great country and pull together. yes I know we are having problems at the moment but we can change that and we need to come together and help the ones who need help. We have a great country here but division is the best way to destroy any country.

[@AnneNovelly]

Very much a case of “the past is a country. They did things differently there”.

[@richardsaunders3743]

Good point.

[@jamesoneill5070]

"The past is a foreign country: they do things differently there".

[@bobman929]

I'm Australian but have 2 British parents. We absolutely shouldn't be ashamed of our history, but the UK is fast becoming the next Islamic state. Similar to what Lebanon is like at the moment. We absolutely don't want them having any control over us as this happens. I would vote yes if another republic referendum occurred.

[@wattlebough]

Constitutional Monarchist always, but only the institution, not the present holder of office.

[@davidevans916]

That’s not going to happen, calm down mate.

[@bobman929]

@@davidevans916 it literally is happening right now.

[@davidevans916]

@@bobman929 we’re not going to let it happen, there will be a push back.

[@SSMasseus]

@@bobman929 no austrailia becaming islamic colony again like indonesian more close to border.

[@jaythefox]

Much of the world is tied up with colonialism in one way or another. We can criticise its flaws, its evils, its catastrophes. But we can't pretend we are also not all implicated in it. Where are the "pure people" who are completely untainted in both their mind and their heredity? I bet you they are few in number!

[@hexane8]

There were tons of them! They just were out-bred by our sleezy ancestors. By our I mean us modern day humans.

[@trevorcook4439]

Wow. This girl is so young but has an idea! Certain different pronunciations of words as the US has more influence but reminds me of my daughter for some reason. My daughter is only 14 though

[@Quillette]

Which words?

[@trevorcook4439]

@@Quillette can’t remember without going back . Ignore me anyway!

[@1969cmp]

I think it is about having a sober view of history. Worts, icing the whole kit and kaboodle. Even those railing against colonialism are hardly innocent and often belong to colonial ideologies such as global socialism which is a social and economic colonial project.

[@scott2452]

Worth reading the substack: Red Flags and the Manufacture of Australian History. The level of Institutional Capture in Academia related to teaching Australian history is shocking.

[@Jonno2020]

I do remember back in the day Manning Clark was seen wearing an Order of Lenin.

[@scott2452]

@@Jonno2020 I believe it was the Jubilee medal (commemorating 100 years since Lenin’s birth) rather than the Order of Lenin…received when he was invited to speak in the USSR. An easy mistake to make as they both show Lenin’s face. Tbh, I don’t think they respected him enough to award him the Order of Lenin

[@Jonno2020]

@@scott2452 "a mass-produced bronze medallion when he had visited Moscow in 1970". yes that would explain it.

[@jennynabben912]

No we should not be ashamed of anything except of our own personal actions. Not the actions of people in the past many of whom were poor, working class men who lived to the average age of 33. Australia is a nation of immigrants after the war and more recently from war zones around the world. Shame is toxic and disempowers people. We should be educated and honour the past of all people

[@Threeredbells]

You should be ashamed if your not proud of it.

[@johnsebastian2589]

You’re is the word you are looking for

[@Threeredbells]

@@johnsebastian2589I thought bird is the word.

[@whitekuk4679]

You can be whatever you want. Western history is more like a nostalgia trip. A history that once was and now is not.

[@paulhwbooth]

The Common Law perhaps most important?

[@jonahtwhale1779]

99.5% Aboriginal people complain about their poor living conditions - lack of housing, lack of schools, hospitals, job opportunities etc Aboriginal people have lived in Australia for about 50,000 years. Europeans for 250 years. So for 49,750 years aboriginal people had carte blanche to develop this land - build houses, schools, hospitals etc. They didn't do these things! For 99.5% time aboriginal people failed to provide these things for themselves. Europeans provided a much higher level of these things for the Aboriginal community than they provided for themselves. So who is really to blame if the Aboriginal community don't feel they have enough?

[@-Kailinn-]

There's nothing to be ashamed of. History is in the name. It was so long ago that most of us never experienced it, and it's extremely wrong to only focus on the negatives of the past when there were so many positives as well, as highlighted by this video. Look around at every country around the world; there are many that would never permit what we do in Australia and other Western countries. The reason we're even discussing diversity and culture in Australia is precisely because people from all over are allowed and encouraged to come in. That isn't true for many countries, which are almost entirely devoid of any diversity at all. Somehow, we're the bad guys for allowing other people in and giving them the freedom to have and express their own cultural beliefs. I actually disagree with mixing too many cultures because it destroys a cohesive society, and without cohesion, we cannot work together to create a better place. If people are willing to come here and assimilate, then it doesn't matter where they come from, but that isn't always the case. My experience here as a young child was full of kindness, decency, friendliness, a fair dinkum, true blue, down-to-earth experience with everyone. It didn't matter what race anyone was; many people were like that. That behavior is being erased over time, and I don't see it anymore. People are very cold these days, and very suspicious of those who don't look like them. That goes for people of any race. I see and experience the effects of racial division and racial bias. I see that behavior taking place at my workplace where people of a particular race are being promoted by those from their race and are given special treatment simply because of their background. I deplore this behavior, and as a white Australian, it utterly disgusts me. People are human beings first, but unfortunately, when they can take advantage of a particular characteristic they share with others, they will do it if it benefits them. It doesn't help that some people barely speak any English, so their only option is to simply congregate around their own kind. Many people don't want to acknowledge these issues, nor do they want to speak about them. I wish it were different because I don't care who comes here as long as their intentions are good and they give the country respect. I've watched foreigners mock the Last Post, a war my great-grandfather fought in. If I went to their country and mocked their culture or history, I'm sure they wouldn't be happy about it. As for the Aboriginals, I feel for what they lost, I really do, and I have no animosity towards them. However, history has already been done, and it's time to put it behind us and move forward together. I'm not saying they should forget their history-far from it. They should do everything to embrace it and continue to spread it and teach it to us all. But fighting over what was, and telling people to get out, is foolish. Land has been fought for all over the world throughout history, and people have lost and been expelled. It's not unusual, nor is it uncommon. The side with the strongest forces will always win in the end, and that's not something that can be changed.

[@DA-qr2ux]

I'd like to ask those calling for reparations - does the UK get any discount for being the second country (after Haiti) to ban slavery, and being the first to actively police the land, seas and oceans against the trade? Or for the £200 billion it has already spent/sent in overseas aid? "'Between 1807 and 1860, the Royal Navy, West Africa Squadron seized approximately 1600 ships involved in the slave trade and freed 150,000 Africans who were aboard these vessels.' They also banned slavery in the 56 or so countries of their Empire (for the first time), often meeting with great resistance from locals - for example the King of Bonny (Nigeria) '“This trade must go on. That is the verdict of our oracle and the priests. They say that your country, however great, can never stop a trade ordained by God himself.”. Britain also lobbied Spain and Portugal to stop the trade, and chased down their slave ships. It is bizarre that in a World where slavery was a near universal, the country that was one of the first to abolish it, and did the most to stop it, is being seen as the most culpible. Similarly, as far as Australian aboriginal and settler communities - neither is without blame. Whilst the indigenous people were subject to many abuses and were terribly impacted by the incomers, there is plenty of evidence that their pre-colonial lives, communities were as violent as you'd expect, so long as you are not lost in the absurd fantasies about the 'noble savage'.

[@AnneNovelly]

Universities are not “bully free” spaces.

[@yoavsapir8146]

Can't find it on Spotify (with premium)

[@Quillette]

Just published it, sorry about the delay.

[@yoavsapir8146]

@@Quillette the book?

[@Cortezerino]

On the point of Maori discovering Australia, I think it's inconceivable that they didn't. If not them, then other pacific islanders surely couldn't have missed this continent. Any attempted settlement by them probably would've gone the same way as the Vikings in North America, when you rarely use projectile weapons, a few Aborigines with spears would make short work of you.

[@rubenverheij4770]

::::::::::: 0:55 NOT TRUE!! B'cause the true heir to UK Throne lived until his death (2012) ( as a farmer ) in Australia!

[@FXHEROS]

The big questions is was it systematic or individals errors responsbile for the atrocities? Should we stop using everything that the empire gave us because of the atrocities, such as stop speaking English, scrap the computer, anything 1% associated with British empire should not exist and would be a representation of evil? You have to ask why they made treaties, even had discussions in early to mid 17th centaury about abolising slavery until it was in the 19th centuary? You have to ask if the British were so evil mo so than the mongols some say why didnt any other rightous empire like the Spanish, french, Arab destroy it the colonial domaint world power was someone else? Some years of the empire was good some not it started ok then went downhill then progressed then the industrial revoltiions then the decline, but the after effects still exists

[@peterbuchholtz3004]

Never

[@jackdeniston6150]

Not a ´paradox´ an outright lie.

[@k4ngk0ng74]

Where was the referendum? Who is the Queen of Australia?

[@trevorcook4439]

Referendum for what? Do you mean king? Am I missing something?

[@megankwisdom]

I want to listen to this but the audio quality is so bad :(

[@daheikkinen]

Zoe is a Tier S interviewer (and woman).

[@hamishread9573]

You should be ashamed for making this. The people who built this country were prisoners it’s not like they had any control on where they were going. But Colonialism isn’t evil why isn’t it evil when anyone else did it

[@urielpolak9949]

A adult can slso just go its own way and cuts ties with the monarchy. Yes no shame in staying your course. But a true choice is in actually having the options

[@user-qs4xw7ye5s]

No, no and no.

[@Bluepilled-c5t]

Yes yes and yes. Why are you so antiwhite? Its an amoral position to hold

[@johnsebastian2589]

What a load of rubbish this bloke is talking about

[@robert3987]

What a load of crap.

[@MCE851]

Why you talking about yourself like that m8 😂

[@jakeundy5962]

“You’re grown up. You’re adults. You don’t need to sever the ties with your parents. Adolescents do that. Adults are confident in themselves. Confident enough to recognise what they owe the past…” Coming from a country that voted for Brexit after soaking up enormous benefits from being part of the EU for 50 years 😂 And that last line, “confident enough to recognise what they owe the past…” so what are you saying buddy, that Britain aren’t confident enough to recognise what they owe the aboriginal people for their land, water, resources and taxes? No recognition and no reparation has been made from the British monarchy. How’s that for maturity. So wise and mature are our polite British overlords 😂

[@Thenewbronzeagecollapse]

Don't whitewash colonialism: despite having its own positives, it had its HUGE negatives as well, and they shouldn't be sugarcoated...

[@boydy7351]

I really dont think anyone is sugar coating colonialism these days. We’ve are more aware than ever of what happened in the past, the bad, the oh so bad, and, the good, and the oh so good. Im 51, Ive learnt so much of late, the good, bad and ugly. The most important thing to remember is this is in the past. Never forget, certainly, those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it they say, but, if you live in the past, you will never progress. Those who talk about generational trauma, etc, are just making it impossible for them and their followers to repressed comrades to ever advance.

[@zentaroichimoku1056]

@@boydy7351 I do not justify the unjustifiable acts of mankind. But many races have been oppressed and exploited. Some races persevered and turned it into positive energy. Some still play the victim card. The results tell us which way to go.

[@awf6554]

I don't think that's what's being done.

[@Thenewbronzeagecollapse]

@@boydy7351 Generational trauma is bullcrap, I just care about historical accuracy.

[@Thenewbronzeagecollapse]

@@zentaroichimoku1056 “Races” don't exist. People CHOOSE. We're individuals first and foremost.

[@Creality.R.Crooks]

Thank you for an interesting interview with Mr Biggar, Ms Booth. No particular grammatical faux pas came to my attention except for a tiny bell ring in my head when you used the term, 'sort of', which I remember saying a lot as a child in primary school when I came to the understanding that my adult relatives and their friends were not very intelligent and not in the slightest bit educated on the technical matters they were inquiring about of me. In junior high school, the same conversational scenarios called on the term, 'basically' which is also quite a patronising sort of a thing to come out with today, just as it was back in the seventies. Please try to install a little warning signal in your mind to catch such cliches as these before you speak them, because they do tend to flag the speaker as an inexperienced amateur, and I like you, Ms Booth, ever since your first interview with Ms Lehmann last year, and want you to maintain a good reputation as a professional celebrity.

[@joddy1195]

Commie shaming garbage…