An Uncomfortable Conversation About Obesity | Dr. Mike Israetel

[@jpdominator]

Gotta say, I didn’t think I would disagree with Dr. Mike on so many things. Good thing Dr. Mike offered things of thought that I agree on.

[@grazyrj]

Same, I was more on Dr Mike I. side in the first interview, with only minor disagreements. This one he went too crazy on the psych stuff which he is not educated on. He really doesn't look further into why those correlations exist beyond the surface statistics.

[@argoneonoble]

Clever nonpartisan comment. 😉

[@BSalabert]

This comment is underrated.

[@panadam2437]

Why though? What would you do if you disagreed with both of them?

[@Normy12]

@@marsmellon That was the joke. They weren't choosing a side, they were being funny.

[@123rpriest]

For two people who disagree about a lot things, they keep it incredibly informed and civil. Very interesting watch.

[@harrybauls4315]

What a great debate on some topics. I like the way Dr.Mike held his own against Dr.Mike.

[@picilocarnal]

The guest is delusional, though. He’s a propagandist.

[@123rpriest]

@@harrybauls4315 of course we all know the winner of this debate was Dr. Mike.

[@user-ii7xc1ry3x]

@@picilocarnal Why's that?

[@123rpriest]

@@picilocarnal delusion is in the eye of the beholder. When an obviously smart person disagrees with you, you have to assume some level of delusion. but I think propagandist is a bit unfair. He’s clearly done the homework behind what supports his views, even if I disagree.

[@patriciaeichberger458]

When i listened to your first conversation, i had decided to start losing weight. That was 3 months ago and i have lost 18 pounds! Slowly but steadily trying to get a hold of my health!

[@savannah4439]

Congratulations! That’s such an accomplishment - keep up the hard work! 💪🌱

[@dguezrbd]

Wow! Good job 👍

[@Gigantichalo54]

Hell yeah! Keep it up!

[@Dooality]

You are CRUSHING it.

[@royyyyyyyyyy]

It's good you're not losing too much too fast, it means you're doing it right and that's more likely to keep it off in the long term 💪

[@kosievods603]

as someone who came from poverty the 'more motivation' you get is often entirely overshadowed with burnout and mental health struggles that come with the territory of being poor (no food on the table, exposure to violence, overworking, and loneliness). I'm glad physician mike gave some pushback because it is indeed an annoying troupe

[@seanyounk1]

I am a fan of Dr. Israetel, but I do believe he places way too low a value on environment.

[@malaMu3]

Exactly. They always look at people just as individuals, and judging the success they can achieve from their individual characteristics. But those individuals have families, they might have old parents that need to be taken care of, or small children, or spouse that is not supportive, etc. All of which affects their outcomes. We live in a network of our family, neighbors and friends, we are not just individuals working by ourselves. And those connections can bring positives and negatives into our lives. Just like dr. Mike's example of the single mom who is focused on the wellbeing of her kids and she might sacrifice extra working hours to help her kid study, or moey to pay for tutors etc

[@TheSonyExperience]

Everyones environment is different. You cannot correct for everyones issues. We could never get anywhere if we had to correct for everyones issues. These are genirilizations and everyone can be exposed to violence, overworking, and loneliness. These can hap at any stage in life. There are certain things that are apart of the human condition.

[@sdmcelroy]

As another person who came from poverty the 'more motivation' only lasted to get myself out of poverty. After that it came down to natural internal drive which wasn't nearly as strong.

[@Crowbars2]

I really hate people who say that sort of stuff, because it perpetuates that stupid right-wing myth that everyone is responsible for their own lot in life, completely ignoring any other factors that might affect a person's life. Probably because the people who say that sort of stuff tend to be rich anyway, and it's a way of assuaging their own guilt about the matter by telling themselves it's the poor people's fault for being poor. He completely ignores any kind of structural barriers like being stuck in places with jobs with crappy wages, lack of educational/training opportunities, poor healthcare, unaffordable housing, and systemic discrimination (such as with race and gender, amongst others). There is no amount of motivation on Earth that could overcome these barriers if the opportunities aren't there in the first place. He also completely ignores income inequality. The entire US economic system is designed to benefit the rich with policies like tax cuts for the rich, minimum wage not rising with inflation, and terrible worker protections compared to many European countries. You can still work your ass off and still barely be able to afford rent, bills, and food. Even people who work multiple jobs still can't escape poverty. U.S. Department of Labor statistics show that many people living in poverty in the US are employed full time. Also, the most damning piece of evidence is that hard work does not always lead to success. In most cases, it does not. It assumes that everyone starts from the same position, which is completely incorrect. Success is often influenced by things like general wealth, family connections, living in the right place, and even then, it still requires luck. Millions of people work really hard but fail to move up in the ladder due to factors that they can't control, like medical debt, sudden layoffs, or family emergencies. It doesn't matter how motivated you are, any of these things can still derail you. Statistics show that social mobility in the US has completely stagnated. Almost everyone stays in the income bracket that they were born in. Claiming that success is determined only by motivation completely ignores the reality for most people living in the West today. If you don't have access to good education, training, connections, or generational wealth, motivation *can not* translate into success. Even the most motivated person on Earth can't become a doctor without going to medical school, which requires access, money, time, and resources. If you don't have the money or time, it doesn't matter how motivated you are, you're not going to medical school without it. Poverty itself is extremely demotivating. It's a constant, draining struggle to just barely survive. The stress and mental load of being in survival mode all the time leaves less mental energy for long-term planning and self-improvement. How can you plan for the future if you're constantly stressed about whether or not you'll be able to afford to eat tomorrow, or need to forgo a shopping trip so you can afford to heat your home? Mike Israetel's statements can only come from privilege, completely ignoring the systemic barriers designed to hold most people down, and ignoring the resources and luck that he had access to that others did not.

[@davidpeacock8276]

Love seeing Israetel get some push back. Don’t get me wrong, I’m a fan and I enjoy his points of view on both his channels, but he has a habit of throwing shit out as facts without much room for the possibility of being wrong or at least not “spot on”. Love the convo

[@klizzt]

Yes! The fact that he throws out the idea that you'd get into trouble in the scientific field for believing in "nature and nurture" in humans due to leftist academics postulating the human to be infinitely malleable and not accepting any dissenting opinion is ridiculous. (Just as an obvious example)

[@nvcn86]

yeah, same. he's ai takes are absolutely ridiculous, but he's talking with a conviction of someone who's spend years in field related.

[@mattwilson7443]

Agreed, I’m a huge fan but the confidence with which he speaks can sometimes be a bit much

[@Nutbutdontella]

@@nvcn86 He is referencing people with years experience in the field. He is telling you what they are saying.

[@inkyboi685]

​@nvcn86 some might call this age ridiculous no one predicted this 10 years ago

[@chrisz5004]

Thoughtful discussion, one thing I can’t understand: genetics hasn’t changed much in the last 20 years but the obesity rates have increased dramatically, doesn’t that suggest there is a major contributing factor beyond genetics?

[@chrisrendon461]

Thats a good observation

[@plzletmebefrank]

Absolutely. Especially since diets and averages of physical activity HAVE changed significantly. I honestly started checking out before this though, when Israetel said that intelligence and self awareness are clearly linked when there is no evidence I've ever seen showing that except incredibly biased and flawed small studies that were constructed just to give proof for their theory.

[@LandOfTheFallen]

@@plzletmebefrankI’d like to see if the advent of neoliberalism and the destruction of the social contract between workers and owners played a role. The two technically begin to occur at a similar period of time. As money starts to siphon its way upwards, obesity rates start going up. As society becomes more unequal, obesity starts going up. Don’t think it’s causative but it’s a thought I had. Maybe people start losing access to things outside of their domicile and thus turn toward activities like gaming, streaming and just generally staying indoors and thus fewer calories are burned and eating couples really well with those activities? Idk.

[@Jabberwocky869]

Genetics haven't changed much, but quality and quality of food has. Our genetics don't know how to deal with all the excess of added sugar, meat and highly processed foods. You could say our bodies haven't evolved and developed mechanisms to deal with it. All we can do is try and not expose ourselves to the excess.

[@viliphied]

He addressed this in the interview: the explosion of highly palatable, calorie dense foods that aren’t very satiating

[@francem3312]

I'm really impressed with Dr. Mike's interviewing skills and ability to craft a respectful debate. He interacts with vulnerable populations and understands how systems impact their lives negatively. It's a great background that helps push back on some of these ideas from the guest. Good stuff, Dr. Mike!

[@ergodoodle1951]

The main thing here is that dr. Mikes phd ideas are not ideas, emotions or feelings, they are research based conclusions which are not fully understood, but have a solid scientific foundations. It should not be pushed back, and it wasn't pushed back, they had a constructive talk that should be seen as two points that complete each other. The fact that poverty and obesity points by phd Mike were hard to hear, and that md Mike points sounded more humane , doesn't mean that any one of the two was wrong.

[@relaxingstudyandfocusmusic8628]

@@ergodoodle1951 Well said!

[@AiRaiKazinski]

You always say none of them is wrong, nonetheless... The point is one point needed to be less wrong in order to be pointed out and deposed correctly whether it was defended PhD or md the point is the vulnerable point was not disoriented because of what he can or can't be done until the moment is disuaded. To explain the reality of the story is none still made up any stories. The push back is whether the recipient goes on for better acknowledgment... The lesser continues to play a pale , number face ranting out the bald one that Dr Mike points out to have a negative impact... No matter he desuades he protected any fact to confirm you or any latter knowledge... If there may be

[@wagonmoundno.2396]

@@ergodoodle1951 dont kid yourself, academics around intelligence and wealth and outcomes have been around for yonks and has always been sneakily based in race science or eugenics ideologies. What Mike is saying might not point directly to that but is on the fringes of it, it is a "slippery slope" you could say. The science is much shakier than he makes it out as and is largely dismissed within the scientific communiy because of its lack of rigour (and obviously its tendancy to deliberately mislead to justify race science or eugenics). Its important to assume that almost all "research based conclusions" are fallible and will always be subject to criticisms. Even if the science appears solid its often not upon further investigation. Emotions, Ideas and feelings are always a part of "objective" science. Science is conducted by humans and humans are not objective.

[@wagonmoundno.2396]

Assuming that Israetel's opinions on poor people equally apply when he thinks about himself, when he says that Poor people lack some intelligence or have cognitive challenges based in genetics, things being equal he must also think that his success is because he is intellectually, genetically superior. Makes you wonder.

[@rejoice5HT]

I'm an Israetel fan and consider him an expert in bodybuilding and adjacent fields. With all due respect, he is not a psychologist, sociologist, or an economist. I find it highly dubious and simplifying to state that something like 80% of the causes of poverty are due to poor peoples' intrinsic and unalterable intelligence and conscientiousness. That is far from the scientific consensus as I know it from university as a psychologist. He comes off as overconfident here and has to paint the entire field of social science as biased in order to explain why he's right and the people who're actually studying these issues are not. But that is not his most dubious statement in this debate. You're telling me that Prime is primarily successful because it's a superiour drink and not because of Paul's status as one of the most well known social media stars in the world? Being born in the USA is not a significant advantage for success compared to being born in some slum in India? That is just ridiculous and Israetel's libertartian bias really shows here. In his worldview, almost no matter the circumstances any outcome of the individual is the result of the individual's personal strengths and flaws. Any successful product in the marketplace is successful because it is a fantastic product that benefits consumers and not because consumers are easily manipulated by ads or the social status of media personalities.

[@faheyfan1]

He's a libertarian with all the biases and ideological shortcomings that go along with that. Good resource for his particular specialty (sports science and bodybuilding) but way out of his depth here

[@yew2oob954]

He's jewish and therefore knows that humans come in two forms, one chosen, and the other needs to be controlled like cattle (goyim), that is nicely demonstrated here.

[@mattc6147]

I'm not an Israetel fan based on these conversations being my introduction to him, but I very much appreciate people like you. You are clearly someone who finds some value in his content but won't stop thinking critically about what he says. I hope the rest of his followers have the same ability to critique.

[@madmoonrabbit]

Replication crisis says hello.

[@Amikahn]

Doctor Mike mentions that 80%/20% is a "guesstimate" and Israetel agrees and suggests 30%/70% i.e., the exact number is not the point here, as I understand.

[@Turbopasta]

Also "How much do connections matter?", "Almost not at all" and then firing back from the hip with "That's complete nonsense" was very good. Arguing that hypothetically a person without connections could be successful is one thing, but OBVIOUSLY connections boost your rates of success by quite a lot on average. Connections are so valuable that many people value the connections you get out of getting a higher education over the actual education itself.

[@ibchillin]

case in point: buff mike is directly benefitting from the connection of the guy hosting his opinions on a 13 million subscriber channel.

[@Turbopasta]

@@ibchillin You could definitely make an argument that it's "wrong" to platform someone like this, and I'm personally not sure which side of that argument I would take, I could probably be swayed either way with an example like this one. There's a lot of responsibility for the host of shows like these to bring on people that are at least talking with them in good faith, which I think buff Mike is doing here, but is it harmful to the public for his message to be reaching more people, even if he's wrong on topics he speaks on sometimes? Thinking about it now, I actually think there's value to what buff Mike is doing, even if he's less consistent than Dr. Mike (vanilla version), because a LOT of people will take advice from someone who looks like buff Mike, but then not listen to the other Mike, usually just for superficial reasons. I'd argue there's huge value there in buff Mike acting like a stepping stone for people like that. It's not perfect but overall I think this was a good, smart and productive interview to have.

[@Ψυχήμίασμα]

@@Turbopasta I see your point, but I also think it is actually beneficial to the public for gym Mike's perspectives to be reaching more people, and I do not think he is wrong on any topics he speaks on. Neither is physician Mike wrong. Just, different strategies and attitudes. Both can be right to the right folks listening.

[@mrrptube]

Incredibly daft take. Rp has 3m subs, Dr Mike Isreatel is well respected and clearly well versed. is it the fact 2 educated people disagree that makes you uncomfortable or just like the quickness of a muffled thought? @@ibchillin

[@Gmoneyt1me]

It's pretty universally accepted that top tier business schools is just about networking. There's nothing proprietary about the information in their courses.

[@kdlf333]

On conscientiousness: I work as a physical therapist in an out patient clinic and one of the things that has been highlighted to me is that what many educated health conscious individuals see as “common sense” health practices are not common sense to the general public. For example, many individuals have the belief that foods marketed as healthy ARE healthy- like salad or dried fruit- when they are actually often not particularly healthy due to added sugar. An individual being conscious of their choices but having poor or wrong understanding of the quality of their choices is a major barrier that is overlooked in this situation. It takes me weeks to educate a patient on certain treatment plans need to be implemented and often their previous biases over power my educational efforts. We need to understand why people are not receptive to expert advice (part of my reason is that I am young and female) and address THAT. Starting with health literacy and media literacy

[@wowandrss]

They already spoke about it, increasing education and health literacy might only improve it by a few percentage points and might not be worth the time and/or monetary investment.

[@StephanieP3]

I don’t understand. The majority of the US does not get enough fruit and vegetables. How does saying the added sugar in dried fruit or a salad makes it unhealthy help someone? Would it not be more advantageous to encourage adding whole foods even if they get a few more grams of sugar?

[@wowandrss]

@@StephanieP3 I think it's in the context of a typical diet, thinking you can eat trash food 50% of the time and deluding yourself into thinking the other 50% is healthy (dried fruits, salads drenched in sauce) is still like 90% unhealthy not 50%. So their diets might be close to like 200g of sugar a day and just cause more issues down the line. Sugar itself isn't inherently bad, if you get all your minerals and vitamins from other foods, you're set, the goal has been met. Those oreos won't harm you. The problem is people use up too many of their daily calories on foods that do not contain vitamins/minerals.

[@StephanieP3]

Okay but it’s important to not demonize foods or view them as “bad” as that can create disordered eating issues, extreme restriction, orthoexia, etc.

[@jicalzad]

whenever i've attempted to advise people on improving their nutrition, i always ask them to add non-processed, whole foods vs. asking them to reduce/restrict the processed, appealing stuff.

[@Gargarks]

I appreciate this collab because I like both Dr Mikes. Plus it's nice to see Mike Israetel challenged on things outside of his sphere of expertise. He's clearly thought a lot about these topics, but you can tell no one has really challenged him or his opinions. So it's really nice to see that done, especially in the respectful manner in the format of exchanging ideas that you see here.

[@ESgsPhysics]

I worry that this is going to be something of a tipping point for him because it's probably the first relatively high profile podcast where the host doesn't also hold basically the same views as him. A lot of people aren't necessarily familiar with his politics and social views - though a lot who watch him would probably infer and agree with them tbf - But he hasn't been actively a negative guy in the space like a lot of others, he's actually principled on a lot of this stuff afaik and not just grifting with outrage politics like most are. There's a reason not a lot of guys like him exist online, the pipelines exist for creators as well and I think this podcast is likely to garner a lot of leftist pushback. That can always have just no impact at all, which wouldn't the worst thing, but he's already coded to react badly to it I think. The playful jabs at people being offended all the time, etc. are fine as good faith jokes but if he gets pushed a bit further right he might end up falling a bit into the general anti-intellectual alt right crowds more directly which would be annoying. Here's hoping that the respectful conversations continue on both sides with him and he continues to interact more outside the sphere of people he typically talks to. People would be absolutely right to criticize a lot of what he's saying here, if it ends up pushing him right though that's on him, not the criticism.

[@Gargarks]

@ESgsPhysics I can definitely understand the concern, as there are examples of this online as you have pointed out. But Mike also has a history of being relatively nuanced about topics other people take Hardline stances on. Vaccines and obesity two outstanding examples I can think of. Obviously there is no way to tell how a person will think or react. And also I don't think that this should limit people who give push back to ideas pause because, even though some will take offense at the push back, that's still the core of how ideas are shared and Truth is arrived at. Israetel has changed his stance on different training modalities as new evidence and arguments came out, I'd like to think that he would do the same in other realms. Just as I would like to think that he hopefully has enough humility to recognize that these are not his areas of expertise. And that others might have better arguments than he. He's clearly thought critically about them and wants to share his ideas. But his critical thinking has only been one sided with no one to challenge him. Hopefully him being challenged will spark more curiosity rather than digging his heels in. Who knows though, only time will tell. Appreciate the thoughts.

[@randy2152]

He listens to and sports Thomas Sowell. That man is who dumb people think is smart.

[@Dr.Spatula]

​@@ESgsPhysicsyou know this isn't the first conversation, right?

[@ESgsPhysics]

@@Dr.Spatula Yup. I think this one is going to be much more divisive than the previous one.

[@The_buddahalo]

Honestly, this reminds me of two lines. The first is from Plato: "I am the wisest man alive, for I know one thing, and that is that I know nothing." The second statement is from Michel de Montaigne: "Nothing is as so firmly believed as what we least know." Watching this made me realize that even some of the smartest people we have to offer have so many blindspots and biases that it is an excellent lesson in humility in one's ideals. In my opinion, it's always nice to have the idea in the back of your head that I'm possibly incorrect and there's something I'm not seeing here in everything we do, think, and say.

[@thejavilan7992]

Scientist Mike (SM) is basically Physician Mike (PM) minus a slightly (but significant) level of humanism and compassion. A trait that probably brought PM to medicine in the first place. That is not a dig at SM, he's a scientist first and foremost and that level of empiricism-first attitude is a prerequisite in his line of work. I appreciate SM's brutal analysis of empirical evidence while also appreciating PM's lean towards empathy. I can see why they're in their respective fields and why both excel at them. EDIT: I have read every comment to my post and appreciate the varying perspectives i have seen. As a current physician training, I am trying my very hardest to not let my biases get the best of me. evidently they have in my initial characterizations in my post. Many of these comments have led me to make my own research and have provided me a more informed perspective. Thank you!

[@chayarchy]

this is an excellent take. you can definitely see what led them to their perspective fields... and be grateful for it. imagine scientist mike as your doctor

[@dobber43]

​@@chayarchyyeah some things are more generally recieved when sugar coated

[@Dreabear14]

I disagree. I think PM displayed just as much empricism as SM if not more so however PM is used to using more accessible language to the average person and is focused on the practical and clinical impact of research. While SM made a lot of opinion based statements without empirical data to back it up but stated them with authority and more empirical sounding language. For example he stated that in academia you would get fired for making a nature and nurture argument instead of one or the other. That may have been his perception but that doesn't align with my own educational experience and he provided no data to support that but presented it as if it was a fact. He may be correct and my experience could have been a unique one, regardless that was not an empricism first way of presenting that information. He does this a lot throughout the interview. I think we tend to see nihilism/pessimism as more empirical regardless of how factually based the statement is.

[@relentlessfisting]

⁠@@Dreabear14I agree with you. I’m only 20 or so mins in, but Gym Mike often says, it is categorically demonstrably true. Issue is he says this to things he wants to believe, and science is an ever changing field. A study from 6 months ago can be disproven, debunked, a new study can provide new evidence. I’d like to see all these studies gym mike mentions as categorically true, cuz I don’t buy a lot of it

[@raulhou1739]

I would recommend you to read < against empathy> by Paul Bloom, at least the first two chapters when he discussed the difference between empathy and things like compassion. Tldr, empathy is not necessary nor sufficient for someone to be nice and compassionate, and it's probably very bad for us.

[@user-ii7xc1ry3x]

The best, most intelligent, most athletic, most Russian Mike duo back at it again.

[@Valintinus]

Thank you, comrade.

[@inquisitivenessandcontempl9918]

​@@Valintinusthat "comrade" thing is not Russian, it's Communist. Most communists in Russia were not Russian by ethnicity and Communist ideology itself was anti-Russian. Communists hijacked Russia but that historic fact doesn't reflect on the Russian people.

[@Tracey66]

@@inquisitivenessandcontempl9918Okay, drook. 😊

[@JonLipton]

@@inquisitivenessandcontempl9918do tell, what “ethnicity” do you think the communists were?

[@JonLipton]

@@inquisitivenessandcontempl9918who were thee true communists then?

[@0Elischa0]

I'm in around 26 minutes and while I don't agree with some of the points, I can greatly appreciate the calm debate between two people with different opinions

[@MyCipherComplete]

Name one point you disagree with and why.

[@villeperala9301]

​​@@MyCipherCompletemy guy I though you where studying, breaks over. Lurking in comments raising our BP wont do you any good. Also the fact that Dr. Mikes can have a fundamental disagreement, but our still able to remain civil. Is something a lot of people should learn from.

[@yumkaax616]

@@MyCipherCompletewhy lmao

[@MyCipherComplete]

@@yumkaax616 its difficult to get people to actually substantially engage in the conversation instead of just sucking themselves off over how civil the discussion was

[@cuy50]

@@RojaJaneman I am not entirely certain what angle you are championing here. Due to my severe insecurity (admitting this is a strength in the modern Western world (this is sarcasm btw)) I am inclined to either believe you are an imbecile or someone with an extremely limited grasp on the English language.

[@Olga-vo8gc]

I don't know, man. I don't trust people who try overwhelm me with facts that I cannot check because the convo goes too fast as they switch from this to that. I'm glad to see Dr Mike being a bigger brain than me here, it's so satisfying.

[@ramonajames610]

RFK didn't benefit from being a Kennedy? Prime isn't popular because of Logan Paul? Nepotism isn't common? What??Asking as an Israetel stan.

[@ornettebreaker]

also a stan this podcast solidified some patterns ive been seing from Israetel for a while, unfortunately.

[@LiamMarcon]

He clearly doesn't live in the real world.

[@DB13-c1l]

Plenty of famous KZbinrs make an effort to create a product, but PRIME survived and turns profit while the others have failed.

[@matthewcreelman1347]

@@ornettebreaker He definitely has a "successful people are self made and deserve all of their success, non-successful people sadly just don't have what it takes to be successful" vibe - and he has in his own content too. He's also super dismissive of SJWs. Which is kinda weird, given that he's a Jewish man married to a woman of East Asian descent who's a doctor: generations of SJWs pushing back on racist and sexist laws are what have made his life possible. I like him for lifting and diet advice, but outside those lanes I have issues.

[@alexmarian4642]

Israetel seems to (intentionally) ignore any kind of nuance in the discussion. Most people who drink prime don’t drink it specifically to “support Logan” therefore he argues that prime isn’t popular because of Logan’s popularity. However, most people drink prime because of the hype, or because the hype made them try it and they genuinely liked it, and the reason for the hype was because of Logan’s middle school fans. A drink of the same quality would absolutely not have had anywhere near the same success in the first year of selling it.

[@RaulV22]

Great example of where two people agree on the wanted outcome, but disagree on how to approach the solutions. All done respectfully in a very articulate manner.

[@pixellips]

I'll say a less charitable view of objectivism (which I believe is the political philosophy Israetel draws from) is that the weak suffer as they must, they're worse off because they're worse people and their deserved spot in societal life is reflected in practice. Israetel is rich because he's conscientous and smart, and none of his wealth should be forced to help others. I don't think this is really two people agreeing on outcomes. Maybe I'm wrong but that's what I'm assuming

[@s.a.6082]

@@pixellips you are wrong. Go watch Mike Israetels video on homelessness and you'll see he's not unkind or uncaring about the marginalized.

[@Viking_Raven]

​@@pixellipsAbsolutely not, he's just criticizing victim mentality and helplessness towards the circumstances.

[@pixellips]

@@s.a.6082 I'll go watch it. My view wad built with haste bro, my bad. Have a good 1

[@le3336]

@@pixellipsyou can be a bad person as a rich or poor person…. Genetics matter more than ppl would like to believe 60-80 percent genetics vs 20-40 environment based on twin studies depending on the traits being studied Remember the kids that would blow you out of the water in sports and academic courses while putting in less effort than you?

[@briankuhn_]

I just noticed Dr Mike now has 13 million subscribers! Congratulations Dr Mike 🎉

[@mirelanita9418]

❤

[@Doctor_mike11]

​@@mirelanita9418Hello fan🌹I just wanted to take a moment to thank you for your amazing support. Your encouragement and positivity mean the world to me! I’m incredibly grateful to have such passionate fans like you. Let’s keep this journey going and continue to share unforgettable moments together! Stay awesome!

[@denia1594]

Yes, that is crazy 😮

[@Masa_Moth]

Exactly 💯

[@jnnx]

That’s nice, but what did you think of the video you posted this comment on?

[@Isabelle.g6]

Did you notice how recently so many people in health industry are coming forwards with new truths? The book called the 23 former doctor truths by lauren clark made me question everything

[@Klara-55-k2q]

Totally agree!!!

[@Klara-55-k2q]

thanks for sharing that

[@tigranmounlan]

Booooooots

[@simonbright2975]

It's just what sells right now. If you notice a trend, it's because multiple someones in multiple somewheres are making money from it. Because suddenly everyone is skeptical of every institution ever, you just gotta sell or market to them things that will answer the doubt/fear or validate it or soothe it or stoke it, etc.

[@tigranmounlan]

Fake account, fake company, scam book, stay away guys

[@fab_beatz_87]

After this interview I will continue to listen to Dr. Isreatels advice for weight loss and fitness but all other topics I will avoid. He is absolutely not well informed but very confident

[@ManiaMadden]

He's got some opinions that border on eugenics

[@erinmarieee23]

He speaks with such a lack of empathy and misguided confidence.

[@ArielLVT]

He has a habit of stating his opinions as facts. In almost all cases as you start to dig into the data, any meaningful conclusions that can be drawn become more nuanced and complicated. So I tend to be skeptical of folks who make definitive statements on a wide range of topics.

[@emilybrown628]

⁠@@ArielLVTwhat data have you dug deeply into?

[@MyCipherComplete]

@@emilybrown628 when someone says they dug into the data they are always, ALWAYS bullshitting. if they knew what they were talking about they would cite the data or give an example, something that is depressingly lacking in the majority of comments I've seen so far

[@nopenopenope678]

on the nepotism question, the sports physiologist seems to not acknowledge that rich dads in various industries employ each other's kids in a favor-based social capital market, not just their own kids in their own companies or industries. the children of the elite consistently snag prestigious roles at any company their family does business with, any company that hopes to do business with their family, and any place the boss wants to trade for that elusive yacht club nomination, boarding school admission, etc.- from banking to PR to fashion design.

[@darionclub2158]

Yes, indeed and absolutely!

[@drumcc]

@@darionclub2158so 2 points, 1. He didn’t refuse to acknowledge. He never discussed, so we don’t know his feelings on this. 2. Assuming he acknowledges this nepotism exists, at the largest companies this will never work over the long haul. No publicly traded company would allow this for long.

[@Volkbrecht]

I'd say that's rare, at least in healthy companies. As employee in a big corporation I have seen kids of several higher ups come and go. These kids sometimes get favorable chances, like trainee positions, but they still have to prove themselves before coming into a position that would enable them to deliver expensive screw-ups. There are even compliance rules in place to prevent nepotism from crippling the organisation.

[@Anewevisual]

H talks too much about things othr than sports scinc lol

[@bokchoiman]

Lebron and his son

[@whirlingdanish1122]

Love the mike and mike combo. Clearly disagree on some topics but both bring ups data and anecdotal examples to prove their points. Love to see it

[@Spectification]

"Anecdotal examples" and "prove a point" are literally mutually exclusive... Also Dr. Mike I. talks like he knows stuff but rarely backs it up, so dont know what data you are talking about...

[@naqibfarhan4356]

@@Spectification he is joking. Clearly the joke went over your head.

[@rowanorrison901]

@@naqibfarhan4356There was no joke

[@MinecraftGuy07928]

@@Spectification This is a discussion, not a debate. Dr Mike Israetel didn't come with citations because like I said. this isn't set up as a debate. If you actually look into the data on his claims, you can find it. Most of the data based claims he made throughout the video are the same ones I would make, insofar as they're something I've actually researched.

[@weirdo3116]

@@MinecraftGuy07928 i just don't like scientists making such strong statements with out properly linking to the data points. he does this on his Mike Israetel channel too. I would assume that channel would be the one to link the research papers.

[@Ninjastahr]

"connections don't matter" - excuse me?!? Networking is the most important thing you can do, and I got the job I have now because I was qualified *and* the HR manager knew my patents and asked if I was still looking for a job (small-ish town, not money connections) - I wouldn't have this job if not for connections!

[@aaronbailey23]

I love the way they handled disagreeing with each other. Kept their emotions in check and remained logical and respectful.

[@vitusoltmanns8099]

Can you guys please just keep adding parts? It'sincredible interesting, high quality and just enjoyable to listen to 2 educated friendly people agree and disagree on various topics without it getting out of hand

[@origin248]

I appreciate Doctor Mike as a podcast host, just because I feel like he reacts exactly as how I would when podcast guests say things that I disagree with and challenge them on it as oppose to saying something like "Bro, you're not serious"

[@peterthephillip]

I am relatively new viewer/fan of Dr. Mike but I have been a long term fan of Dr. Mike. I really gotta side with Dr. Mike but thought Dr. Mike made some good points and it was a very interesting discussion.

[@sendocr5349]

yeah, so glad you two make anothe episode together

[@BIGHSM]

True

[@lylemcdonaldisright]

Why? So Mike can have another platform for his ignorance? Because that's all this is.

[@lungkoygallo7351]

​@@lylemcdonaldisright be positive

[@Turtleofbread]

@@lylemcdonaldisrightlmao riiiiiight

[@Frankdurlin]

@@lylemcdonaldisrightdon’t think ive ever seen someone say dr mike is ignorant defensively a new one

[@marisawhale]

Cmon, I worked at Microsoft, the company of nepotism, mistresses and personal preferences. Unfortunately, we don't live in a perfect world where hard work and dedication beats connections, no matter how hard we want to believe it.

[@WerseVarsity-jk9bh]

Bill Gates wouldn't be as rich as he is if his mother never had the connections with IBM, not even including indirect benefits.

[@Nutbutdontella]

No one said it doesn't happen or that it always beats it. At the extremes it ALWAYS beats it. If you hack into Microsoft systems and say look what I did and here is the fix they WILL hire you. It was simply stated that nepotism doesn't win out over TRUE greatness in any field and that long term these people are found out. It was also stated that nepotism usually works out because children of great people are often great.

[@sandyg4646]

Other Doctor Mike claims that nepotism won't get you anywhere in making businesses successful if you're a greedy CEO, you would want the people most capable in getting results. However many of these Nepo babies receive special education specifically tailored to them being able to understand the business enough to keep corporations afloat. Much like the OGLIARCHYS or "cheabols" of south korea.

[@reclusedoggo3513]

Are you for real you think access of nepotism and all the dei is equivalent to number of genius and these genius is even low .1%​@@Nutbutdontella

[@trogdor20X6]

I was at Microsoft for 4 years (outlook team) and it’s nothing like that at all.

[@cowmath77]

24:05 You’re spot on Mike. I’ve had chronic pain with dysautonomia (orthostatic intolerance/venous insufficiency/raynuads) since I was 21. I was homeless, unemployed, and enduring chronic pain. At 23 I began taking partial opioid agonists and genuinely set me up for success. I got 2 jobs, put myself through college at 28 while working full time and now have a 6 figure job, married with my own home and 3 dogs; all because I was able to get through the day without pain. At 34 years old, I have set up so many safety nets for myself that should I eventually get proper treatment for my disease, I will be able to take time away from my life to step away from partial opioid agonists. Drugs saved my life, and bought me time to become successful. I’ll be forever labeled “a drug user,” but that’s better than being a dead failure.

[@jpdominator]

On the flip side, in my late 20s I got prescribed Adderall for ADD and the growth in my career multiplied several fold. It’s not been something I abuse, but I do attribute its continued use to the magnitude of my success. I also deal with chronic pain, but it’s thankfully more of a nuisance than debilitating for me.

[@gomezaddams6470]

I understand your statement incredibly. I too had pain medicine during the most productive part of my life. I never abused it, I did everything I was supposed to do. I followed directions and the law to the letter. Still am stamped on the forehead as a former drug user. Though now that I'm not taking it because of laws and the insanity of current combining street drug use with prescription drug use statistics. I will not be able to have them again. At least the way doctors are in my state right now. I am almost paralyzed and can't help myself the way that I was when I was on pain medicine. I'm going without food which is ruining my body my teeth were perfect they're not now because of malnutrition and the drug that was given to me to help me get off of the pain medicine. There's so many factors involved in this but that is the main part of the subject and this is how I know what you're saying is true. You did not abuse your medication you took it with a goal in mind and you followed through. This needs to be put out into the medical society much louder so that there's an understanding that people do Thrive when they have less pain and that these medications can be helpful when used correctly and many people do use them correctly we're just not noticed. I don't know how true it is for the whole world but in my world and now what I'm hearing or seeing you say I feel validated. Which is what we're all looking for. Thank you for sharing this it makes me understand things even more. And I'm glad that there's somebody out there who did not abuse their prescription medications. And used it to better themselves. I hope that you go on thriving and I wish you the best life possible. I wish I would have known your doctors and lived where you live because I was not given this opportunity right in the middle of meeting at the most the laws decided to take it away from me. Doctors around me were literally going to work and finding their private clinics closed because they had 10 pain patients or even as low as 3 to five pain patients. So fear ran rampant and doctors Workforce to stop. Right when I needed it the most and it made my life come to a screaming halt. I needed help to get to the bathroom when I am a lean healthy muscly person who ate a very healthy plant whole food diet my whole life while I was on medication during the worst part of the pain. My blood work was perfect I was extremely productive. Now I'm lucky if I can get out of bed. Sorry my had just continued to empty words out. I went from being happy to find you and happy for you to being mad that I'm in the condition that I'm in not blaming you at all

[@Femfemio]

You dont get urges to increase dosage?

[@chojnb]

​@@jpdominatorand I want you remind that PhD mike also has adhd. This is way I understand his thinking and believe in medication because we, people with adhd understand power of it. We know what to do and how but still we don't have ability to do it but with medication is so much simpler and achievable. It's really hard to explain how 1 pill 💊 can change antything. Also it's adhd is genetic so it really helps sometime to don't blame yourself so much because we are what we are.

[@cowmath77]

@ I do not. Over 11 years, I have swapped between kratom and suboxone during this time (not together, separate) and have always kept the dose low (1mg suboxone/10-15g kratom daily). No issues with tolerance and no need to take more; I am genuinely taking it to engage with my day, not escape it.

[@dr.feaver]

I love these two men. They are so compassionate and honest, and we need more people like this who are willing to be open and have real conversations.

[@Mushroompanda648]

I never want to hear the word "conscientiousness" ever again, and after this discussion I need to go lie down.

[@uchinanchuu58]

Great, just plug your ears, cover your eyes, and hide from reality.

[@weirdo3116]

@@uchinanchuu58 lmao what. my man's tired and you're accusing him of denying reality lul

[@fluffigverbimmelt]

I can only hear it in Peterson's creaky voice. Dr. Mike does a hilarious impression

[@JD..........]

You're probably low in conscientiousness.

[@izzy_peters]

Right 😂😂

[@grazyrj]

27:24 Thank you Doctor Mike for immediately calling that bs. Connections are extremely important, more so in some fields than others, but definitely not "almost not at all".

[@ashddd]

Exactly. It varies from industry to industry, but there's not way connections don't matter. How many universities priorities the children of Alum? How many internships are given based on connections?

[@Viking_Raven]

Is that what you want to believe? How would you know what the context of a wealthy person and the level of advantage their connections represent of you haven't been in that context?

[@Viking_Raven]

Israetel counter argues with a very valid point, "negative connections", bad actors are also prevalent in those spheres. So we have no way to determine how easy or hard they TRULY have it, watching front the other side of the fence.

[@JorgeSanchez-sh2nl]

​@@Viking_Raven you're so pressed cause people are calling out the bs. Get through medical school and then you can yap about it lil bro

[@lauralaura4362]

@@Viking_Raven I live in Australia and was hired at a job at a sorting facility because my dad is a delivery man. I was hired when I was 17 and it has definitely given me a huge advantage over other people, even if it is on a smaller scale to other nepotism hires. This job is also a bit exclusive and most people are there because they are related to someone else that already works there. The job pays pretty well and you almost always get opportunities to do overtime, which is great since we're getting paid by the hour. It's also shift work which pays even better, and it's a government job which will never go under so probably one of the most secure jobs in my country, but I think the biggest advantage is how you get different learning opportunities earlier on than someone who has to find a job without connections. I quickly learned how to work hard, have evidence of that through my experience, and was able to get work experience which will help me get a job later in life. I am studying IT so i might see if I can transfer to the IT field in my company. I am in a much better position than many of my friends who work in fast food or supermarkets. On a larger scale I know someone who currently works in a FAANG company in Cybersecurity and makes a lot of money in his 20s. He is from a rich family from Dubai and studied in the best university in my country. I am studying at TAFE which is like community college and he told me that his friends who are studying at TAFE Cybersecurity are having trouble finding jobs and that the advantage to university is the connections and networking. He would have not had the opportunity to make those connections if his parents could not afford to send him to the best university. So he would have not gotten the job in FAANG.

[@Bcoupes20]

In regards to prime and celebrity influence, i would agree that yes if it’s a shitty drink people won’t buy it. But if you make an average drink, the celebrity backing can make it explode into something it isn’t.

[@wowandrss]

But then it already made it past the barrier of entry. If your drink can compete on the market vs average drinks, that's success already. Sure celebrity backing can make it even bigger. That's not the point.

[@Bcoupes20]

@ depends on what way you mean “average”. I meant average tasting, and on the drink market average tasting drinks don’t last. It’s one of the harder markets to survive in given the hold that Pepsi and Coke have. You’re meaning of average seems to be the “average you seen in the market” which isn’t the same thing. Feel free to correct me if I’m wrong, I like the conversation

[@randomviewer3494]

@@Bcoupes20 Prime is already getting sued cause they had way lower demand than they expected. A supplier set up a whole production for them and they were like, nah, it actually doesn't sell that well. So even their mediocre product won't sustain very long I imagine.

[@Bcoupes20]

@@randomviewer3494 ahh I didn’t know that. Not surprised with all the scams/unprofessionalism logan has been associated with

[@randomviewer3494]

@@Bcoupes20 look up legalEagle's video titled "everyone is suing logan paul' for more info. Its pretty interesting

[@simplybaker.]

58:54 I think this part is very illuminating. Buff. Mike is trying to understand why people are obese, MD. Mike is trying to help people not be obese.

[@MGShadow1989]

That's probably the best faith takeaway from this entire vid - as a medical professional, he genuinely cares and that compassion is a large influence, the 'why' doesn't matter as much, whereas the 'why' is the primary aspect for buff Mike.

[@vincentruben4365]

Nah disagree. Buff Mike might try to understand why but is failing miserably. MD Mike does actually have some understanding as to the why and tries to help.

[@cmcog]

The only real takeaway from this video 🙏🙏

[@ytdiury]

"Buff. Mike is trying to understand why people are obese" Is he though? To me it sounds like he has already decided what the answer is (conscientiousness + IQ + food drive). I think he's trying to come off as someone who is trying to understand why people are obese but that's not the same thing as actually doing it.

[@diemes5463]

@ytdiury You didn't watch the interview, he said repeatedly stated it as "conscientiousness + food drive". I have very low food drive, I don't particularly enjoy the process of eating and would skip it altogether if I could. Communicating this to other people has been perilous to say the least. I'm glad he's speaking up and doing so in a measured and intellectual way, even though people like yourself will misconstrue his message.

[@Vivi-Coree]

I had tried to lose weight for almost a decade and nothing worked. Calorie counting, working out, diets, even fasting didnt help me at all. I finally found a doctor who believed me and turns out i had big hormone imbalances, hypothyroidism and issues with my digestion. That paired with extreme insomnia made me unable to lose weight. I have now lost 120 pounds in 1.5 years. Sometimes, you just need to find a doctor who believes you and has compassion

[@noobgam6331]

Even if you had hormone imbalance calorie counting works. You are(were?) just delusional, but that doesn't negate people needing to take care about their health before caring about weight. Health first, diet second. Under some circumstances diet is founded based on your health condition

[@Vivi-Coree]

@noobgam6331 actually it doesn't. I've always consumed between 1000-1500 calories per day and i worked out daily and still put on weight until my other health issues got adressed. People like you who judge others without knowing anything about their health are why so many people are scared of speaking out in fear of being judged. As i said, i have lost the weight and my habits are literally the same as before.

[@modkip25]

@@noobgam6331 why are you calling someone you've never met delusional? 🤦 yikes

[@furia2472]

Congratulations on your weight loss :)))

[@modkip25]

@@Vivi-Coree what are the treatments that helped you?

[@Sunlit_Reading]

Dr. Mike Israetel's Ph.D. is in Sports Physiology. He has wonderful expertise in that arena and I genuinely love his content and humor. The “pull yourself up by your bootstraps” stance on poverty he advocated however, has been strongly disproven in the fields of anthropology, sociology, economics, political science, and history. The most cursory look at any foundational textbook in these fields on class and inequality establishes how uncommon social mobility is, and how capital, social capital, and cultural capital shape one's life chances. For anyone interested, Pierre Bourdieu and Max Weber are strong scientists to begin with. As a Ph.D. Candidate in anthropology, I think it's so important to be clear on what we have expertise in, and where we simply have curiosity and interest without training/credentials, especially when communicating with the general public. Speaking in absolutes and never citing any research is such a red flag... Quite bummed out to be honest.

[@MinecraftGuy07928]

That's not the takeaway I had from Dr. Mike at all. It's a chicken or the egg situation at its core. Does being born into poverty shape you in a way or put you in a situation where you're less likely to be successful, or is it the case that you're more likely to remain in poverty because you inherit the genetic traits from your parents that aren't conducive to upwards mobility? The current science on this topic seems to be leaning more and more towards the latter explanation. Pulling yourself up by your bootstraps DOES work, it's just that on average, poor people don't have the traits that are conducive to that kind of upwards mobility.

[@chrisistheman692]

I stopped fact checking Dr Israetel a while back because every time I did his statements were always backed up by some primary source. He doesn't tend to just come up with such theories on his own. But with anything, I am sure there are studies or experts who disagree on a topic. You can find conflicting studies on pretty much anything

[@chcomes]

I agree with you, I went from "his" view to the more data-based view you mention. I think it is related to the fact that our "economy" is tuned to be a rat race, in which we can improve individually and get ahead, but that only changes significantly the relative position in the pack, keeping the basic, fundamental pack distribution untouched, just dropping some from one pack to the lower and getting some new in the higher packs. The fundamental structure being determined by the socioeconomic structure of the economic value distribution. As currently we shift more and more to a system where capital makes the profit, those holding capital make more profit, and work, even done perfectly, loses value (all of this seen relatively). What is happening is that most of the shift out of "poor" is based on the amount of active capital (capital making money) that a person or family has. With economies keeping families at zero active capital with low level jobs, the way out of this is only enterprise creation (impossible without own capital for the most cases) or higher education for getting a different kind of job- but that is a multigenerational effort until any real amount of wealth is achieved.

[@jilljepson6667]

I agree. He seems to know little about the social and psychological effects of poverty. There have been decades of research on these things, and he blithely ignores it.

[@MinecraftGuy07928]

@@jilljepson6667 refer to my comment. Chicken or egg type scenario here.

[@applefritters5424]

i don't think i have ever seen someone buy into meritocracy as much as Mike I. For someone so preoccupied with intelligence, it surprises me how little he questions the structures around him and instead opts to blame individuals or genetics...

[@jilljepson6667]

I totally agree.

[@janniskugler9809]

I think he acknowledges both, but also wants to make a strong case for the role of competence & personal agency, as it is downplayed by big parts of society in favor of non-controllable social phenomena (serving as excuses)

[@brittlby4016]

⁠@@janniskugler9809Fair, but the first 30 minutes often bordered on downright sophistry. Downplaying the massive advantages of silver spoon nepotism as well as the predatory hiring practices of “passport indentured employees” in STEM is a little ridiculous.

[@chcomes]

It is a classic conservative worldview. Works on micro, fails on macro, but most are ironically too lazy intellectually to get the whole picture.

[@taylorhillard4868]

Yeah. You can often tell when he gets to philosophical things he tends to readily accept information that paints his own world view favorably (like his proposal that more intelligent people are more libertarian like he himself claims to be. Which is probably correct on a social matters front, but not economically. Intelligent people view the most successful economic plans as the best, which are not libertarian policies.) Golden rule: question everything you learn, ESPECIALLY things that you agree with.

[@Grumbo91]

Good to see Dr Isratel get some push. Has some wild ideas when he drifts outside his main lane. Very good respectful discussion with great points on both sides.

[@Rusty.Spoon5]

I find it HILARIOUS that he is talking on a topic not in his field of expertise and wear a Thomas Sowell shirt. The man that wrote a book on called "Intellectuals in Society" where he talks about the hubris intellectuals and the dangers of listening to them when they talk outside their expertise.

[@eternal_hangnail]

What's wrong with speaking outside of your expertise? As long as the speaker and listener are aware that it's not their expertise there's nothing wrong with discussing ideas. You think someone needs a PhD in a subject to talk about it?

[@bradk7882]

@@eternal_hangnail the difference is stating your opinion about a subject versus claiming an opinion as absolute truth with no evidence to back it up. The former is fine, the latter dangerous.

[@0scottzack]

​​@@eternal_hangnailhe didn't say the speaking was the issue. Trusting Mike on topics unrelated to sport science as if he was talking about sports science is the risky move. Also an educational podcast isn't exactly you and me bull shitting at a bar.

[@asdf1616]

​@@eternal_hangnail If you frame what you're saying as your opinion as a regular person it's ok. However, people tend to trust authorities (like MDs or PhDs) regardless if they have any expertise on the topic. It's unethical to use your title to give more credibility to your personal opinions which are not based on your field of expertise.

[@BigUriel]

@@eternal_hangnail It's a dumb argument to use in this context anyway because neither of the people having this conversation are experts in this field. Research on obesity, its treatments or the link between poverty and attainment is not done by physicians.

[@oledyl4892]

34:39 RFK’s name and connections gave him a head start. Israetel is being obtuse. He may have special qualities but he does not recognize that the first connection is the most important connection.

[@ReddFoxx1562]

His point was that his ultimate success wasn't entirely dependent on his name; he could have also failed with that name, and probably should have, but that his presentation (for whatever reason) just appeals to enough people for whatever reason. Like, nobody is saying "that RFK guy is an idiot, but BECAUSE he's a Kennedy I will support him."

[@ammox4683]

You have to understand first that he's talking about genetics, just because something is apparently true doesn't mean it is as demonstrated in the conversation, poor people despite being poor don't buy the cheapest meals but instead what's tastier well within and sometimes beyond their budget which doesn't make sense but that's a thing, same thing with connections, how likely is it for someone like RFK to be successful has more to do with the choices he makes given his genetic traits and not entirely because of his connections which is what peple like you like to believe, people like him have failed miserably before, so what's the main factor? Isratel is making a case for genetics, that's all.

[@LeeLikesFrenchFries]

1:28:15 Man... If Dr K participated in this conversation, my mind would probably explode. That would be an interesting group chat about this topic.

[@davidpeacock8276]

I would love to see Israetel and Dr K

[@leonro]

​@@davidpeacock8276I can imagine that being a very wild conversation, and I'm all for it!

[@crezgaming9614]

Funny, i was actually thinking the exact same thing.

[@3_14thon7]

The guy who's still advertising BetterHelp? No, thank you

[@dead_again9839]

​@davidpeacock8276 Israetel and Dr. K are like, my spirit animals, I was bummed to hear Mike didn't like him! All the more reason to get them on the pod together!

[@brianpowals7606]

Love Dr. Mike (Isratael) but I can't believe some of his takes. That said I love the ability to have this dialogue despite the disagreements

[@jaredlash5002]

I know Dr. Mike Israetel is an intelligent guy. However, I get the impression that while he is well-read, he has formed a worldview that is not quite aligned to reality, but he has the conviction of his beliefs and the eloquence to convince others of his misguided worldview.

[@javierflores09]

it isn't necessarily misguided, just not your reality. While I also disagree with what they say, I don't think it is healthy to straight out rule their worldview because it doesn't align to us, because it could very well be true and we're just at the extremes of what his points try to demonstrate, or any other plausible explanation. The world is very big and there's definitely some truth to what he says, I am just not inclined to believe it applies to me even if it may to some extent

[@JB-lp9xr]

I have noticed how wealth and/or success really does make some people get a little unhinged with regards to self-certainty and ego. I wouldn’t be surprised if a year from now he is even worse. Consider it a mild form of “The Musk Effect.”

[@JB-lp9xr]

@javierflores09 - The fact that he was discussing AI with great confidence should give you pause. Clearly the man knows nothing about AI, and he is confusing his own common sense with actual knowledge. It wasn’t a giant red flag, but a glimpse of a red flag.

[@lazmaroulis6686]

@@JB-lp9xrhe’s mostly correct on the behavioural genetics front and how a lot of why people are morbidly obese has very little to do with education and advertisement, and more to do with proclivities that are largely influenced by genetic predisposition. It’s true that generally speaking obese children who are over fed by their parents are experiencing what’s known as the passive gene effect, wherein one’s parents possess certain genes which influence certain types of behaviours (in this case excessive feeding) which then creates an environment that encourages those kinds of behaviours in their children who also possess similar genes. The only piece of information Dr Mike seemingly omitted, was the fact that the widespread availability of hyper palatable, calorie dense foods also plays a massive causal role for everyone within the population who is obese, regardless of whether you’re rich or poor. However, when discussing why poorer people or even middle class people tend to be fatter on average than those who are affluent today, a lot of that is ascribable to behavioural genetics-based factors.

[@JustForTheTunes]

The irony of Israetel discussing the correlation between education and political ideology while also repping a Thomas Sowell t-shirt was not lost on me. I respect a lot of Israetel's opinions, but they are not always as factual as he likes to proclaim they are. I can just declare that any given position of mine is 'empirically irrefutable,' but if I'm not providing specific studies or data to back those declarations up then that authority has yet to be proven.

[@fortheloveofemily4426]

I love this discussion; it needs to be talked about more. I am very self-aware but I also grew up in poverty and have an intense food drive. I ate more raw, healthy foods when I was a minor because my grandparents had a garden, bought the cheapest stuff, etc. I moved to a big city when I became an adult, started buying the easiest and tastiest options, and now I am 25 with 45% body fat. Before now, I feel like I was on autopilot and not really aware of anything. It’s as if I “woke up” a year ago and now trying my hardest to reverse the damage I’ve done.

[@fortheloveofemily4426]

@@RojaJanemanthat’s what I’m working on now actually! Discipline in general, holding myself accountable, sticking to what I say I’m going to do. Just quit smoking cold turkey actually

[@jnnx]

@@fortheloveofemily4426Congratulations, keep it up, Emily!

[@diemes5463]

Fantastic, you're a great example for all of us

[@DwizzleDorf]

I feel like a lot of Muscle Mike's opinions come from the envisioning of a perfect meritocracy and assuming that we currently live in a world that does largely reward merit and I think that's just not the case in reality. So much of success is based on pure luck; who your parents were, where you grew up, etc. That the majority of your life path for the majority of people is more or less set out as soon as you're conceived. If you really take a look at a lot of these "Self Made" successful people you will find that, especially in the case of academics, they had tons of silver spoons and leg ups on their way. Wealthy school districts, not being food insecure growing up, things that the majority of people don't have, and thus can't abuse the exponential growth of wealth and intelligence. Basically it feels like he is holding people to the same standard while ignoring differing starting positions.

[@VKiller]

To be transparent, I have little to no actual knowledge in this field. But I'm interested how you would then refute Dr. Mike's point when he quotes a research paper that found no significant difference later in life between students in the uk who went to very good public schools vs public schools that get much less funding. And btw, I have primary sources with anecdotal evidence at how different these schools are. I mean the ones in more expensive areas of the country have id cards which many private schools dont even have.

[@MrKlaatu06]

No, I think he acknowledges its not a perfect meritocracy, only that people are predisposed to doing better over time. There are limits of course, but between those that have a better strategy and those that choose to YOLO, the former will trend towards a better result. If you look at actual data, that's what happens. The 'wealthy school districts' do not directly correlate with better actual results. That's not what the data says. Sure, some ultra elite rich people will get by with just social connections alone. That's still a very small % of the population. Everyone else? They trend towards better over or worse over time as other conditions permit. You're not going to succeed if everyone dies in a war/starvation/plague but in a normal condition? You're going to be better off or worse off aligning with the base levels of competency.

[@uchinanchuu58]

You must have not listened to what he was saying at all. I would sum it up by saying that everyone has a starting point and a velocity in the field of life success. Yes, your starting point is absolutely beyond your control but your genetic predisposition toward conscientiousness is the velocity that carries you toward your end result. If you naturally make good decisions throughout your life, you'll be able to weather the bad circumstances much more easily and you will generally be successful in the end, even after tragedy strikes. Take Israetel himself--he just described to you how he grew up in 1980s Soviet Union, and we all know that was one of the worst starting points ever, and yet look what he has done by having presumably little in the way of nepotism and a lot in the way of intelligence and conscientiousness.

[@NourianPeters]

@@uchinanchuu58 So you are claiming all boomers made better decisions than young people?

[@user-cp9yo4jk9b]

nazi mike doesnt talk about meritocracy at all- he says free will doesnt exist and that genetics determine success, not that people without success are bad and people with success are good.

[@ryann8348]

As much as I love Dr Israetel's work in the area of fitness, we need guys like this in policy making

[@ajd3391]

I love when these two get together. The conversation is always intellectually simulating and civil. I'm a regular follower of both channels and in general have to compliment both of them for having channels focused on blending entertainment and informed decision making. They both cut through conjecture and charlatan nonsense. We could use more Mikes out there.

[@MyCipherComplete]

Why not contribute something substantive to the comment section instead of the pointless bloat?

[@jetvoidweller]

​@@MyCipherCompleteso what are you doing?

[@ajd3391]

​@@MyCipherComplete looks like someone has low conscientiousness 😅

[@TheShizzlemop]

@@MyCipherComplete are you not doing the same? what cruel irony.

[@MyCipherComplete]

​@@TheShizzlemop think ahead more than 5 seconds my friend. we can prevent these kinds of posts if we call them out. Criticizing a thing is not always the same as doing a thing.

[@witchmorrow]

Mike Israetel really grinds my gears sometimes. The way he phrases things and his tone is so condescending and arrogant. He acts as if he knows absolutely everything and he knows what's going to happen, without any room for doubt or that he may possibly be incorrect. Like with AI - there's lots of experts in the field who are not all the way down the AI-bro-Elon-Musk-rabbit hole, who disagree with the AI-bros saying that we're on the verge of AGI. But Mike I is so biased, he won't listen to any of that, he just thinks he's an expert in the field himself (based on, like nothing). Dude, get some humility and understand that you don't have to phrase everything with 100% certainty. Nobody really knows everything, nobody really knows what's going to happen with AI or anything else.

[@PROVOCATEURSK]

He eats for 3 and then blames the poor people that can´t afford quality food.

[@James-qw7cr]

Spoken like someone who knows absolutely nothing about the said conversation

[@CarlForTuna28]

Exactly this. He needs to take a step back and realize that just because he reads a study, doesn't mean he understands it correctly.

[@CarlForTuna28]

@@RojaJaneman Sure, but he should reflect and work of them. It is right to call him out, especially when he's speaking on such a public platform.

[@SploogeScrooge]

He literally says "this isnt my field", I don't find his tone arrogant he's just really confident in what he says. What I appreciate in his conversations is that if you're taking what he's saying as true, you'll probably agree with everything, he's highly logical and clearly thinks deeply about his values. The debate comes in the form of different definitions (worldviews, like what is contentiousness or even "good") and if what he's saying is truly correct or false or somewhere in between. I think he should research more about the subjects he talks so confidently about, such as AI, where our current models are just LLMs and don't really have any connection to AGI (he did throw around some terms but didn't go into it). With everything said, I respect him and his opinion a lot as a person, he's good intentioned, deeply logical and passionate. I don't think he doesn't have any flaws, I myself disagree with a lot of what he says, but I don't get angry. Just makes me wish I could have a conversation with him, cause he's clearly the type of guy to listen, think and care.

[@CrabyCrabs-p5g]

i didnt think i was gonna hear another convo between these two and its the most entertaining podcast in a while i watched this whole thing without zooming out

[@racebannon3672]

I watch Dr mikes hypertrophy channel RELIGIOUSLY. But I couldn’t stomach his philosophy channel because he says his opinions so often as if they’re just facts but they’re not. It’s so clear that he has his opinions and then works backward to justify them. Rather than doing the work first and then arriving at an opinion. It’s nice to see him actually talk to someone face to face who has a different opinion

[@Cartoonishly]

Hats off to Doctor Mike...this discussion was really frustrating. Especially when Dr. Mike Israetel denied RFK was a product of nepotism.

[@sarrormiki3363]

It appears I don't have to watch this episode. Seems like it's going to be beyond infuriating from all the comments I've read.

[@SkyCardis]

@@sarrormiki3363you may agree with some, may disagree with others. Getting the information from context is more important then what people say out of pocket, but yeah it was a rough thing to listen too but I wanted to be educated on their discussion and viewpoints. Then make my own decision.

[@otiredpanda9473]

@@sarrormiki3363 its pretty interesting once they get past the nepotism stuff

[@JustStopPlayingGames]

@@sarrormiki3363 Truly, the conversation is worth the full listen. There are times, sure, where you might be sitting with your eyebrows furled like, "Oh, come on, you can't possibly think that." But for the most part, it's an incredibly fascinating discussion on how much social factors and genetics play a part in success. Both doctors give plenty of pushback during the conversation, so it's not like we are only hearing one opinion here. And I imagine if you are here, listening to a 2.5 hour podcast discussing psychology from two doctors, I would posit that you're probably a little more educated than the general population. Enough that you can hear both sides and come to your own conclusions.

[@realization8919]

@@JustStopPlayingGames I always thought that maybe Israetel was operating under a ton of brain fog and said stuff he didn't believe considering his heavy usage of steroids, but it seems like he really is just this way since he has been decreasing the doses of steroids recently. Doesn't really matter though, Israetel still has a ton of good advice/opinions, it's just that he seems to have quite a lot of bad ones too.

[@SoloQ275]

I feel like the very first point on AGI was completely based on the opinions of people who have an extremely high vested interest in us believing AGI is coming. The sentiment of the people selling shovels is a terrible metric of determining whether a gold rush is coming.

[@fVNzO]

Are there people that don't have extremely high interests in AGI? Who?

[@kyledsweeney]

@@fVNzO all of the people Israetel listed have huge stakes in AGI becoming real. They have a large incentive to overinflate the current state of research because they are literally trying to create a market to sell a product. Do you remember when Facebook manipulated content partners into pivoting to video? They made up metrics about what consumers wanted to see because they had just created an ad platform that relied on video content. It came out years later that the numbers they used to push these media companies to video content was total bullshit. A lot of those companies bade bad decisions and laid off a lot of people based on literal lies. It remains to be seen if ML and the push to AGI is a bubble, but there are plenty of reasons to be skeptical about it. To use an example in the fitness space, think about Greg Doucette. He talks about his supplements all the time, constantly hocking them in every video. Dr Mike has correctly labeled him as a charlatan because most of the shit he says about the supplements aren’t true, or are extremely misleading. If someone waxes poetic about the benefits of something, and then they tell you they actually manufacture that very thing, and you should be excited to buy it, it should raise at least a couple of red flags.

[@SoloQ275]

@@fVNzO anyone whose entire livelihood doesn’t depend on selling it or the idea of it

[@TheArrowedKnee]

@@fVNzO *Vested* interest and being curious/interested in something is not the same thing. Vested interested means there's financial gain or loss involved. Most people don't have financial stakes in AI. And most of the people espousing LLMs as the best thing ever, have a financial interest in it succeeding.

[@weirdo3116]

@@fVNzO i assume most people don't care one way or another.

[@maxxlanglois]

Man I can't get over how much "intelligence" is used as a blanket statement here when it is about the most nuanced thing ever.

[@addisonkennedy7111]

and all research that shows that EQ is a better predictor of outcomes than IQ and a bunch of other factors

[@MinecraftGuy07928]

@@addisonkennedy7111 EQ isn't even a real thing, real meaning something that can be accurately measured, or measured at all.

[@MinecraftGuy07928]

Intelligence in these types of discussions is almost always referring to "general intelligence" or "g factor" which is a very specific and measurable phenomenon.

[@weirdo3116]

@@MinecraftGuy07928 doesn't nuance mean "very specific and measurable" in this context?

[@JustForTheTunes]

@@MinecraftGuy07928 "G factor" is also a psychometric topic, a field that is criticized for how prone it is to be misapplied or overgeneralized. Just because it is measurable does not mean that it has amassed the volume of consistent data necessary to be a reliable metric in any case beyond the very specific parameters in which its studies have been conducted.

[@darrenatwood2554]

Fantastic to listen to two people who disagree on so many things. but listen and have thoughtful responses. This is a perfect example of having a great discussion.

[@emalienoel7891]

I always believed in nurture over nature… until I found a ton of half siblings through DNA websites (our parents used the same sperm donor so we have different moms but the same biological father) and the shared characteristics are wild. All of the males have drug addictions and the females have ADHD. We’re all night owls, as well. And 4 of us had childhood anxiety that manifested itself as pulling out our eyebrows. DNA is wild.

[@francookie9353]

Excuse me?? Pulling out your eyebrows? Wow. DNA IS wild, apparently.

[@michaelcuneo374]

It’s a combo of both. You’ll also see families that are barely identifiable to each other when considering looks, health, income and mental state. Genetics can certainly predispose you to a lot, but how each individual handles those is usually different.

[@emalienoel7891]

@ oh for sure. For me the biggest indicators of genetic predisposition was really all of the men being addicts and the girls plucking our eyebrows from around 6-12 years old. Trichotillomania (pulling hair) is relatively rare in the general population and even more so if you’re just counting those who specifically pluck facial hair.

[@modkip25]

well... ADHD is genetic, sleep problems and addictions are more common for us. And being neurodivergent can be a big cause of childhood anxiety. So yeah, it's genetic, but it doesn't mean nature has a bigger influence than nurture. 🤷

[@emalienoel7891]

@@modkip25 totally. The hair pulling is very specific though

[@cobracommander8133]

Dr. Mike Israetel is speaking well outside of his area of expertise here. Most sociologists, anthropologists, and social and personality psychologists would likely push back against many of his claims. Honestly, he comes across as someone who has read too many Ayn Rand novels. That said, I still like the guy-his exercise science and athletic performance content is excellent.

[@philkim8297]

Those identical twin studies are very convincing to me. I wonder what experts in other fields would have to say about them.

[@Armeddragon12]

Honestly, the fact that he is wearing a Thomas Sowell shirt should indicate where his ideology is coming from. Its honestly sad how many people don't realize how bad and contradictory Thomas Sowells work actually is. Unlearning Economics did a great video a few months ago dissecting Thomas Sowell's work if you want to learn more.

[@hahdakdahkdhalsla]

@@Armeddragon12 How exactly bad and contradictory is Thomas Sowell's work? can you be specific and explain that in detail?

[@OdiliaBarr]

SO MANY of his "anthropology says this" claims are bullshit. Sociocultural anthropology generally bears out the exact opposite of what he's saying on the vast majority of his points. He should stick to what he knows, which is clearly not social sciences.

[@martinsoukup562]

@@Armeddragon12 can you mention how he contradicts himself?

[@fdiw]

Raw food from scratch is only cheaper based on time/energy availability. I've been on bed rest this pregnancy and struggling to cook and be upright for my family. The amount of food we have had to toss due to spoiling as been maddening but the chicken tenders in the freezer have saved us so many meals. I don't love the labeling processed food as "bad" or "lazy" instead of seeing it as an accessible food option. The single mom working 2 jobs example dr Mike brought up is in a similar situation, she doesn't have the time to cook chicken from scratch for 45 min to an hour every night or can necessarily afford to have it go bad after 3 busy days.

[@FortheBudgies]

Thank you! I was thinking exactly this. Eating low cost nutritious whole food based meals takes a huge amount of mental effort and time. It wasn’t so hard as a single person but super hard with a family. My husband finally got on board with meal planning and cooking with whole foods. He used to do processed food and take out when he covered meals. Now he realizes how much more time and energy involved in making that happen. Obviously he knew that because he avoided the effort but he realizes it even more that he's doing it instead of me. However his heartburn is gone, we’ve both lost weight, and I don’t snore anymore. So after getting the routine established was worth it but difficult to keep going.

[@somnaw]

Exactly, but why isn't your family cooking for you during this difficult time? You shouldn't put up with that.

[@traceyalicia3088]

This is such a huge point that I was surprised didn't get brought up. Someone's ability to prepare unprocessed food is going to vary greatly from someone working two jobs or commuting longer or caring for family alone etc

[@liquidcorundum6568]

Between rice, canned beans, canned vegetables & meat cooked from scratch, the latter is definitely the most labor intensive. It's also pretty unnecessary, especially for non-athletes with low protein requirements. Canned beans & vegetables, which Dr. Israetel also brought up as examples of low-cost, nutritious food options, require essentially zero prep to consume (Just bust out the can opener. They're already cooked and often already seasoned). Rice in its cheapest form (raw & dry) does require preparation, but very little, and you could totally just get a loaf of generic wheat bread instead for a fairly small amount of money in many places. Eating cheaply & with basically no time for food prep could look like this: Dump a can of beans into a bowl, and maybe a can of spinach or mixed veggies if you haven't had anything green in a while. Microwave it or eat it cold. Grab a slice or two of plain, cheap bread and munch on that. The example above is not the healthiest way to eat and it's far from the tastiest. However, it's probably nutritionally adequate for many people and not terribly likely to promote obesity.

[@fdiw]

My husband does his best but he works full time and is taking care of me and our son and trying to pick up my share of the house work. We don't live near family either. So it's more chicken tenders for a bit till I give birth and recover.​@@somnaw

[@lolno6975]

Damn we're getting double the Dr Mike today 🗣🗣🗣🗣

[@ZackBlackwood97]

In the UK, we have a show called Rich House, Poor House. Where a family who are basically financially set for life, trade lives with a family who can barely make ends meet. They swap lives, budgets, everything. Rich families always think poor people just aren't trying hard enough, until they realise the poorer families are working 2 to 3 × more than rich families only to make 100× less money. I think Mike should sign up

[@Masa_Moth]

Couldn't agree.more

[@Volkbrecht]

If you work in bigger companies there is usually a point on the career ladder where progress stops being about competence in the knowledge or skill sense and becomes more about people skills and juggling problems. At this point, work becomes almost pure fun. It can still be tasking, and the workload can be high, but it's never boring, you generally get a lot of new things to think about, and a relatively big share of your day is meetings, where you get to interact with people and discuss interesting ideas, and, most importantly, time just flies by. And on top of that these jobs are paid a lot better than being a simple grunt who has to always get things right and has to deliver a countable outcome and do the same things over and over again. Success is self-rewarding. Not being successful a continous slog.

[@jolt4404]

It's a reality show, they show you what they want you to see.

[@DerXavia]

You do not start your life with 3 kids and 2 shitty jobs though. Its a long process, in which the sum of your actions brought you into this overall shitty situation. And in my opinion he did factor this in. On average the poor family made many poor decisions, and according to Dr. Mike this largely comes down to consciousness. At no point did he say the life of poor people does not suck or they could just turn everything around with a simple trick. And he specifically says that its never a short term solution to any problem. But after 10 years, assuming that the rich have high consciousness while the poor do not, the situations are likely to have shifted again.

[@yew2oob954]

A jewish guy "working hard?" That's hilarious!! 😂 If that happens then what are we goyim (cattle) for?

[@Byak10]

I work with rich people, and the way Dr. Israetel doesnt understand how deep nepotism can get is almoat funny, skills matter shit in business, the one who manages is get it from connections. Really rich people doesnt let their money on the leash of others

[@Lau3464l]

Totally. Nepotism = opportunity. Obviously if you’re catastrophically bad at the job and you have to answer to a board of shareholders, you won’t last long, but you can get away with a LOT before you get fired when you have nepotism on your side, and you get in the door way sooner than anyone else

[@71lizgoeshardt]

I just got to that point in the video and did a major eye roll. Dr. Mike Israetel sounds incredibly naive about the prevalence of nepotism.

[@chcomes]

To be fair, it is wildly different in different places. For instance, it is much more in Spain than in Germany, at least up to a middle management level. So people can easily get a different view based on their own personal experience.

[@User-54631]

Could you promise that will not help your children or grandchildren etc?

[@philip1216]

​@@chcomesIt is extremely common in Germany. We even have the term vitamin B (or C in English for Connection). In Germany the income of your parents heavily determines the future income of a child. Of course the person needs to be able to do the task. But what Israetel doesn't understand is that most companies dont want the best person for a job. They need somebody to do the job. Good enough is fine. And many people can be good enough, especially when their parents can afford private tutors, they dont have to work during uni and so on.

[@przybylskipawel]

Actually some research suggest that for emotionally/politically driven opinions there is small positive correlation between intelligence and firmness of that opinion regardless whether this opinion is correct. In other words people tend to use their intelligence to better argue why they are right and not to infer whether they are actually right. Which makes sense given the theory that logical reasoning evolved as a cognitive ability not to make scientific progress but to facilitate the ability to influence other people which is an adaptative strategy.

[@quidnunc01]

Yes, there's also some evidence suggesting a relationship between intelligence and clinging to rationalizations about politics, which is bad if the opinions you hold don't have a good evidence base, as is often the case with political opinions (ref Dan Williams on Substack if anyone wanted to go deeper into the philosophy and theory)

[@mollybud6393]

I actually feel like this conversation is a pretty good example of just this on Dr. Mike I's part 😅

[@TheKurama9]

I didn't know that I disagree with Mike Israetel on almost everything, but it was still a very respectful conversation

[@racebannon3672]

Why do right wingers comment this all the time? What makes you jizz so hard over “respectful conversation”

[@drsimonwyatt]

30:13 - Medic Mike is making a point about survivorship bias which Gym Mike isn't understanding. The exploited worker doesn't have the "buffer" they need to take the risks which would undermine the unfair nepotism. Whereas a competent nepo baby has access to the credit and connections they needed to found a unicorn company

[@Robespierre-lI]

Nepotism is not the crux of the issue. It doesn't effect much of the population. Only the extremely wealthy

[@alexmarian4642]

Gym Mike really said “maybe the poor employee should start a start up” as if starting a startup doesn’t cost a huge amount of initial money

[@zelenisok]

Makes sense when you know that Gym Mike is a fan of Ayn Rand.

[@kristopherwilson506]

@@zelenisok somewhat. Rand largely rejected libertarianism, of which he subscribes to. Additionally, she is a believer in free will, of which he is not a subscriber to

[@argoneonoble]

Well stated. Gym Mike is really small-minded and doesn't understand all the variables of life. He thinks it's mostly dna.

[@briannam3140]

20:33 it’s not because “they’re just good at stuff” it’s because of their situation. he’s implying they were not poor in the situation before one parent died which means they probably are getting life insurance and depending on how old the hypothetical kids were when the parent passed and the family suddenly had less money, the kids may have already had experiences that other families couldn’t afford, therefore already putting the kids ahead even if they are “delt a bad hand” at some point in life. and this doesn’t even bring into play the systemic issues and suppression that exist in society especially america today. Explaining why someone doesn’t have as much money as another person issue isn’t so black and white and is quite literally a unique case every time, same w those who have money

[@coorz64]

Childhood obesity is certainly no child’s fault, and it’s extremely hard for obese children to maintain a normal BMI for the rest of their adult life. Did the child choose what their parents fed them?

[@jemase7931]

​@@fssstyuniafYes. Like you said. We all have challenges in life and we all make our own decisions about what we will do about them.

[@tonyho3450]

Extremely hard but not impossible, u said it urself

[@VOICEFORFREEDOM1776]

⁠@@fssstyuniaf I think you’re oversimplifying a really complicated issue. Sure, personal responsibility matters, but acting like it’s as simple as just taking control ignores the bigger picture. Childhood obesity often starts with things kids can’t control, like what their parents feed them, not having access to healthy food, or growing up in an environment where cheap, processed food is the norm. And as adults, breaking those habits isn’t easy, especially without the right support, resources, or education. Obesity isn’t just about willpower. It’s tied to emotional, psychological, and even financial struggles. Telling someone to “grow and learn” without understanding the challenges they face comes off as dismissive. Instead of pointing fingers, we should focus on fixing the systems that make it so hard for people to succeed in the first place.

[@Patrick-y4d1z]

No, of course that is the parent's fault - while they are a child. But once you are an adult and control your food intake, then it is on your to fix the mistakes of your parents. It's easy to blame others, but everybody has their cross to bear. You can either feel sorry for yourself or do something about it.

[@Tuti23-yt1vw]

That’s not a valid excuse in these era, even kids are aware of diet and exercise due to social media

[@waywardsoul5305]

Respect to both, I don’t think Mike I’s perspective is coming from a bad place, but he has some myopic perspectives. Appreciate this discourse!

[@lechatbotte.]

Blame no. We have a responsibility to make an effort to find solutions.

[@Patrick-y4d1z]

Solution is to eat less.

[@Viking_Raven]

​@@Patrick-y4d1zAt a societal level there needs to be more rigor with the processed food industry. But as with many other issues the answer we get is usually "It's your individual job to do better" which is true, but private and public sectors are not taking accountability either.

[@Tristan-mv6lc]

@@Viking_Raven what should they do, not sell unhealthy food? If limiting individual choice or tax unhealthy things like they do in some places that is not a good solution.

[@xt-cj7jg]

@@Patrick-y4d1z its just harder, is the problem depending on ones situation, and societal factors

[@Entropic_Alloy]

Connections mattering "not at all" is the biggest load of crap I've heard. Networking and connections are the FOUNDATIONS of success. Getting a job is almost always more about WHO you know rather than what you know.

[@5FingerTreePunch]

Tell that to Mariah Careys sister.

[@michaellu6181]

That's not the point Mike Israetel was making. Nobody disagrees that networking is a crucial part of success, but competence holds a far greater influence. Is it easier to form connections if you're born on 3rd base, sure. Does privilege come with an environment that better fosters the development of such skill, absolutely. However the harsh reality is that companies hire people that are good at what they do, and if privilege made somebody better at that skill then that's who a companies gonna hire.

[@stefankovacevic0604]

then lets look at a huge field of work like computer science many people cant get jobs, wonder why is that?? Perhaps cuz 3rd world country people come in can do top of the line work what connection could an indian thats 24yr old and was raised by low income parents possibly have to get a high paying job goes to show that if you do the work u get the job no matter who you might or might not know

[@KaareneRNHealthLifeCoach]

Really… I know a lot of people who have landed great jobs by pounding the floor and making themselves known. I agree it does help but is it really the majority🤔

[@spankyjeffro5320]

Yes and no. Unfortunately connections do matter, but they shouldn't. Your qualifications, experience and merit should speak for themselves.

[@mjaynes288]

Depression does decrease appetite. Have you ever tried to eat lentils and brown rice when you are not hungry? I have and it is nauseating. The only way I survived was getting calories from soda.

[@RageofAnath]

Same experience. Junk food pulled me through because I could eat more than 3 bites.

[@jamjam1]

And the fatty/sugary colorie high foods brings a sense a joy that's hard to get when depressed. Even if you force yourself to eat healthy because you're eating chicken and rice for a few days when you have a $20 in your wallet and you're hungry you're gonna want a burger, fries, and a soda

[@MatoWitko]

Opposite for me, I eat a lot as it is, but I definitely eat more and eat worse quality foods when I’m depressed.

[@adams5389]

@@MatoWitkothis is the joke

[@MaryKate071]

Depression often drives many people to crave very savory or sweet, flavorful, calorie-dense foods which provide instant gratification and stimulate the dopamine-activated pleasure centers in the brain. People who are depressed also often don’t have the mental or physical energy to cook and prepare nutritionally substantial meals, so they resort to ultra-processed foods that come ready to eat. Others will have decreased appetite overall and the lack of drive to care or nourish oneself. Mental health and its effects on the body are complex and not fully understood by scientists. The sensation of fullness involves hormonal signals, such as leptin and ghrelin, acting on brain receptors, particularly in the hypothalamus. Many weight-loss drugs target these pathways to induce satiety and discourage overeating. This is written from my evidence-based knowledge as a nurse practitioner.

[@ajmobbinn]

as an avid fan of dr mike (rp), in fact one of the few youtube channels i watch religiously, im starting to notice a trend unfortunately. let me preface, i understand if you have a perspective on a topic you should be fully invested in it and be willing/ready to defend it. but i have noticed whenever dr mike (rp) has a discussion w anyone, he always becomes the contrarian "actually that's completely wrong, i objectively know more than you" guy. that being said, on the topic of exercise science im still gonna listen to a lot of dr mike wisdom

[@BrushPact]

27:23 Good on you Doctor Mike (left) for calling this shit out. I appreciate and respect Dr. Mike (right) for his fitness expertise and knowledge but he is displaying how intelligence and expertise on one subject doesn't translate to understanding in others.

[@jackc3727]

Do you have a specific argument against what he said? I think he’s pretty much right. You would be hard-pressed to find someone who is smart, hardworking, and consistent that is not successful in this country, regardless of how many connections they had due to nepotism.

[@JB-lp9xr]

The Musk Effect

[@homeshows]

​@@jackc3727perhaps to be smart you need access to higher education, to be hard working you need opportunities, to be consistent you need security in housing, healthcare, and available transportation. You want to point to specific people as examples without acknowledging those who haven't reached a level for you to notice them who are struggling due to obstacles requiring tools they don't have access to use.

[@he.walks.among.us_]

@@jackc3727I do for the simple fact that yes, over a lifetime even someone who comes from absolutely nothing (if they are hardworking, smart, and diligent) will eventually succeed. I think the level of success is what people disagree on. His example about a child of old money parents making 3 business that came to be million or billion dollar enterprises was ridiculous. Unless he changed his name there is next to zero chance he got there all on his own. “Well his parents didn’t give him money or talk to anyone for him.” So what? No one he talked to recognized his last name or knew who his parents were? Had they never seen his face? “He didn’t use his parent’s money”… wonder if he had savings and where at least some of it came from. Unless Mike I. is claiming that they never gave him money at all. And if it was entirely his own money, how do you think he got the job that gave him it? How do you think he acquired the college education to get the job? All I think the original commenter is saying is that if you strip away the guy’s parents wealth and connections and still leave everything they instilled in him (drive and sense) the same it would be 1 in a trillion chance he would create 3 businesses worth millions. Hell, he’d be the god of luck if he could pull off starting just one.

[@mw66683]

"Food drive is impacted by social situations..." - agree. If you're at a social gathering, you're not going to eat the same way you would when in a private setting.

[@spazzyshortgirl23]

No one wants to turn down grandmas casserole. She loves you.

[@user7-o9w]

It really doesn’t help to blame someone or something for your weight. You can blame it on anything from genetics, mental health, or circumstances that were out of your control, and it’s easy to beat yourself up about it, but it would be more conducive to focus on what you can do to take care of yourself going forward.

[@andrewboardman764]

Well said ❤❤

[@JacobGust]

The conversation is about material reality, not how best to help individuals. Those are two separate conversations and both are worth having, but that isn't what he was talking about. Just as helping them overcome obesity is important, understanding the material reality that creates the issue in the first place is also important.

[@user7-o9w]

@ Whether it’s about material reality and not about helping individuals, am I not allowed to speak my thoughts, even if it’s something I thought of just by looking at the title? Edit - What I commented was thoughtless and ignorant, which took away from the main point.I didn’t mean to make it come across this way, but I understand that it did, and I will own up to it. I should really think more carefully before commenting next time. Thanks to all for pointing this out. I appreciate the replies 🙏

[@evad687]

@@user7-o9w No you’re not allowed ???

[@Dlannin05]

Great comment

[@SPAMMAN123456789]

this is a real tough one for me because i think both of these folks have very good points. I am a firm believer that the best place to put ones will power/effort is constructing their own environment in a way that it optimizes the outcomes you want. For say obesity, if you want to prevent eating poorly, the place you need to spend your will power is not, avoiding eating the chips/snacks/cookies at home, its at the grocery store. To have not bought those things in the first place. So that the barrier to get those snacks is greater. And further more you would want to do your grocery shopping before the work day starts if you could because your will power hasnt been ground down from the day. But to have done all of my aforementioned stuff, you also need to have some discipline or what Israetel may call 'conscientiousness' to conceptualize that. Further more some one who is poor and has to work two jobs, may not have the energy/will power to do what I mentioned earlier unless they have extremely high conscientiousness. Idk I think they both are right. Edit One other thing where I dont these two arent seeing each other is statistics is a cruel, objective, heartless thing (provided the people who gather the data are also as objective as possible plugging the number in). You roll a dice enough times. you will get 6, snake eyes in a row. Now scale that over all time for all people. And the points Israetel make about conscientiousness do bear out in real life. And its unfortunate. But Mikes examples of people who are hard done by are also a symptom of rolling enough 1s over enough time. And where systematic intervention could of helped.

[@aleksandrakowalczyk6043]

Just buy sweets you don't desire much. You won't eat them, but you won't buy another since you have sweets at home. Worked for me.

[@lyricalfroge5219]

I just feel a discussion with someone who makes very bold statements that are easily disproven by looking at some studies does not hold that much value. I am glad they are having a civil discussion but after the third intellectually dishonest "that's a fact" statement I had to check out.

[@Jack_L]

Yeah, I gave up on this one. He seems like a guy guided primarily by his ego about his intelligence rather than by his intelligence. He uses unnecessarily large words to get his points across, says everything with absolute confidence, and whenever a good counterpoint is made against him he doesn’t seem to actually consider it because it doesn’t align with his worldview. I could be wrong, this is just my first impression of him and I quit after 30 minutes because that’s all I could endure.

[@satviksaha1764]

"that are easily disproven by looking at some studies". go ahead. present some studies that disprove his arguments about trait-conciousness effect on obesity/success. Dont just preach because you find what he says offensive, you are simply proving the point he makes later in the podcast. I personally have no stake, or any idea about what the research actually is. BUT, the guest is a scientist, and he is saying that after looking at studies he has come to his conclusion. I suspect you had to "check out" because you find reality uncomfortable, not because the guest provided false information. call to action: present to him some studies to change his and my mind. because of this I have googled some studies, just skimming through abstracts. everything he has said so far has some reasonable scientific reality behind it. trait-conscientiousness is literally part of the big-5 personality test.

[@matthewlove4082]

@@lyricalfroge5219 That's how I feel listening to Mike Israetel, unfortunately.

[@Viking_Raven]

It's very hard to get past our own confirmation bias, same confirmation bias that fuels your comment and your lack of desire to listen to a person you don't agree with.

[@shalizzle793]

@@Viking_Raven If he literally analyzed several of the claims made rather than outright dismissing them, he’s NOT doing what he’s criticizing.

[@n00bJesus]

The only thing while listening that grinds my gears is the outrageous level of confidence Israetel puts behind everything he spouts. Just because you know how to speak like a textbook, doesn’t mean you have the knowledge of one.

[@PostmanPat854]

The amount of stuff he's really just jabbering about without having the full knowledge or context is amazing. Dude needs to stay in his lane of things he actually knows about.

[@heather9393]

Exactly.

[@heather9393]

@@PostmanPat854100% this

[@MyCipherComplete]

refute one point, give one example, or just take your hands off the keyboard.

[@MinecraftRaccoon012]

@@MyCipherComplete it'd make my day if one person would find the brain power to do so instead of the lazy "I think your wrong".

[@nazimamahmoud5754]

Let’s goo mike and mike together again

[@lungkoygallo7351]

They are brothers

[@nazimamahmoud5754]

@ maybe

[@jennifersmith2332]

That Chapter?

[@mosubekore78]

1:55:18 I agree with this, if your attic had a hole, you could spend a lot of money to buy a big bucket to contain the water if it's raining and energy to throw that water away, you could always spend more money to buy a bigger bucket too, while you could just spend the money to patch that hole and fix the problem permanently. It's attacking problem from a different angle, but you need to address the root cause of the issue.

[@krasniypomidor803]

This podcast and the first part with dr Mike are both one of the best podacst episodes I’ve ever listened to. Hope to see the future parts!

[@JGComments]

LLMs aren’t anywhere close to AGI. “CEOs say” isn’t an argument.

[@jamesgrant]

Yeah, and SM (science Mike) is totally wrong about the internet. People knew about it and were predicting how it could be used. He’s way too bullish on AI based solely on what biased CEOs are saying. But those CEO have to be bullish in order to keep their stock prices high.

[@TheUnknownJester]

Scientists agree with that notion. We still aren't close to replicating the complexity of the human mind.

[@TheArrowedKnee]

As a software developer and with a masters in CS, this is one thing that Israetel says that absolutely aggravates me to no end. LLMs are *language* models. They are not intelligent, they are *advanced* statistical models that predict what the next word it should say based on the question asked, it's training data, and what it has answered previously in an answer. An LLM has absolutely no notion of logical thinking. That's why they "hallucinate" so much, because *by design, that's all they do*. But because they are trained on human language, they are exceedingly good at giving you the illusion that they're intelligent. However, that's not even remotely close to an AGI, that would be capable of thinking and coming to conclusions by itself, and most AI experts agree that LLMs are probably not the way to achieve that.

[@petersansgaming8783]

​@@TheArrowedKneeFellow CS guy here, exactly. It's much more likely for us to reach Mars and build a mini colony on it by 2035 than AGI. It's laughable how far away from AGI we actually are and here there is someone who actually went through higher level academia with a PhD who still falls for the Dunning Kruger effect.

[@KimMaverick]

I think this conversation is a great example of expert entitlement bias, where experts in one field feel they can make authoritative pronouncements in areas beyond their expertise. Great conversation but I hope people watching know how to use the chapter links and fast forward button. 😉

[@keepingitkianatural]

Because wtf does Gaga (Fitness Scientist Mike) know about cameras (AI)?

[@Gmoneyt1me]

@@keepingitkianatural Underrated comment

[@meltedsnowman9637]

Are you able to show how he said anything that was incorrect?

[@LiamMarcon]

100% agree. It's a real issue in podcasts and broad interviews. For example nobody should be taking Neil DeGrasse Tyson opinions on biology at the same value as an actual expert in that specific field. Sure, experts in any field may be better at filtering information generally then average joe but they're still not experts in the specific field and they will often bring in biases on these random topics.

[@ertsec]

@@keepingitkianaturali mean the issue is that he was cherry picking information from people with a financial stake in rushing general AI. There is still no AI that can learn like a human and process information like a human, 2030 remains a HUGE stretch

[@klokcotizao224433199]

We need another Podcast!

[@helenacohen2185]

17:11 Mike really said a single mom who works two jobs who loves her kids and never stops

[@andianderson3017]

With gentle hands and the heart of a fighter…

[@kristenhaynes4343]

@@andianderson3017 I'm a surviiivoooooor

[@andianderson3017]

@@kristenhaynes4343 original slow version or the one where she rocks out with a Barry saxophone? I always thought it was weird when they made it all peppy.

[@grazyrj]

It's so satisfying to hear him talk about the struggles of the poor and ignored, especially in America where the wealth gap is quite wide, and understand the difference between "these things are correlated" vs "these things are causally related" like Dr. Mike I., who I do like for this exercise takes, but not for his psychology takes at all.

[@Pelmite]

The issue with the cheapest food being raw foods is you have to cook them, when you’re exhausted working 3 jobs you don’t tend to want to cook, so you lean to fast or processed food

[@MatthijsvandenHoven]

I agree. Lately my solution has been to batch cook for at least 4x the normal amount and freeze it. Edit: and doing it in the weekend, so that I don’t have to cook after work.

[@Kaiser86]

@@Pelmite absolutely. I wasn’t aware of this Mike I. guy, but he’s coming across as someone who has very little clue about anything, and has a disproportionately high confidence in his limited abilities and understanding. I’m finishing up my PhD now, and it genuinely baffles me that someone with a PhD could make such sweeping, incredibly simplistic statements without stopping and thinking. Did he get a PhD in some sort of sports science or something and now thinks he’s a mega genius on everything from the economy to anthropology?

[@Patrick-y4d1z]

Nah I don't buy that people have to work 3 jobs. But even if you do buy and eat only processed foods, prepared foods etc, there are still options of health. If you're buying a premade sandwich for lunch, that isn't causing you to be obese. It's because people are buying McDonalds and drinking milkshakes etc. Consumer fewer calories if you're overweight and you will lose weight. You can observe your own bodymass and body morphology and adapt your diet. It's not actually that hard.

[@wbae1340]

@@Kaiser86curious what your don’t agree with that he said? In terms of food for example with what was stated above, cooking a healthy meal would be cheaper and could even just take an extra 15-20 minutes. The food will improve your mental health, physical health, energy, sleep - all things that will make working multiple jobs easier and less tiring. So by eating unhealthy you are spending more money and making your work more difficult…

[@Tuti23-yt1vw]

When there is a will, there is a way.

[@PolkCountyWIProgressive]

1:08:00 - Wild. Our adoptive daughter since age 8 around age 14 regressed HEAVILY to sub-par, junk diet even with extreme influence of our cooking. It’s like her favorite foods at 11 never existed and somehow she always likes junk food. She literally thinks chips are the only good food even though we never really bought it.

[@derekguarino4050]

Such an incredibly thought provoking episode, with amazing points by both Mikes. Made my 2 hour road trip fly by.

[@worldlit1146]

The question is not who is to blame, the question is possible successful strategies to deal with it.

[@willmcclard206]

arguing who/what to blame is the start to figuring out how to fix a problem. If we know that forest fires are starting, we would look to see what’s causing the fires rather than strictly just putting out the fires

[@AileenBaker]

I'm curious if having access to more resources (e.g., money) allows for higher conscientiousness. I imagine that if you're working three jobs and trying to take care of yourself and your kids from a basic-needs perspective, it is quite difficult to allow the world to be more complex than your current paradigm allows. I think Dr.Mike has some interesting hypotheses, but also writes off nuance in a troubling way. I'd love to hear his updated perspectives after reading data incongruent to his current held views. He is so smart and a meticulous thinker in many ways and yet willfully negligent of the broader picture. ETA: this was a fantastic listen. I could listen to you both chat once a week because the virtue of your disagreements leads to really interesting, thoughtful conversation ❤

[@alexmarian4642]

Exactly. Mike I discusses how rice is cheaper than processed food, which is true, but doesn’t take into account the time or energy spent cooking the rice. Even if it’s a simple meal that takes only 15min, plus 15min to clean up, that’s still going to very significantly cut into the very little free time low-income people typically have. Further, after a long day, people will have less emotional energy to spend on self-control to not overeat, especially when much of what they eat is processed food which is engineered to be addictive. Many people I know say that they can’t afford holidays or nice things; the only way they can afford to treat themselves a bit is going to McDonalds Further, growing up with food insecurity is legitimately traumatic, and can cause people to overeat because they’re subconsciously fearful they won’t have food tomorrow so they need to load up just in case. My family comes from Romania (also a Soviet bloc country, but in the 80s and 90s *much* worse than the ussr in terms of food availability), and since getting plentiful access to food almost all of them are overweight or obese, and many are morbidly obese. Growing up, they were all significantly underweight and constantly hungry, and many had abusive parents that would beat them if they cried. They’ve made very good efforts to try to lose weight, but they struggle as many of them get incredibly anxious from feeling hungry. I’m absolutely not saying that poorer people can’t lose weight, and spreading such messages is very harmful, but there clearly is a reason that poor people are so much more likely to be overweight than rich people, and it can’t just be that they’re all lazy because genetics. Dealing with the obesity crisis requires much more than just saying “pull yourself up by the bootstraps idiot”

[@JustForTheTunes]

Israetel is incredibly intelligent, but also seems to be less intellectually flexible. In many cases that's not always a bad thing (a mind too open will allow anything to enter), but especially when socioeconomic topics are concerned, nuance is not just important, it IS the core reality being examined. Some of what he says is absolutely correct, but he doesn't seem to acknowledge that these truths are just specific sections of a larger reality, and that you cannot use them to judge the whole. His macro-rigidity really handicaps him in some of these topics, despite his excellent micro-topic understanding.

[@User-54631]

there is boil in a bag rice ready in 2 minutes. That’s shorter than a drive through.

[@wowandrss]

@alexmarian4642 People have the most amount of free time in modern history, saying that fat/poor people are too busy with their successful careers that they don't have time to cook RICE is just.. beyond words.

[@HopeDeGaia]

Yeah, you're already more insightful than him.

[@MdSteel7]

The fact that the two Mikes have different opinions and both give smart answers is amazingly thought provoking. Love from Italy 🇮🇹

[@sofiasininen8268]

I was thinking of italians exactly. Is the fact that you guys are less fat than americans prove that on the average yo are more consiencious? 😂

[@MdSteel7]

@sofiasininen8268 no, we just have less money to spend on food 😅😅

[@hippie_4762]

Gym Mike's idea of us living in a pure meritocracy and nepotism being virtually nonexistent really reframes just about everything else he believes as utter nonsense. How can anything be perceived accurately through that lens as one's foundational truth.

[@ParaditeRs]

“Do you believe in free Will?” “N-no” “oh cool” 😂 I just found this small sequence funny.

[@helenarosno]

i was overly conscientious when i was younger. when i started college, i became drastically less conscientious, now that i've graduated, i'm 100% becoming more conscientious again, however, i'm also more resilient and optimistic than i was in highschool thanks to therapy and other experiences i've had. i grew up in a middle class household, so i would assume my growth in life is pretty average, especially compared to other women and people that decided to go to college.

[@Kubaaano]

really weird argument about Dr. mike who keeps shifting the nepotism discussion into what's good for the company. Mike V is specifically talking about nepotism making people better off, and it being the reason for their political beliefs. Not their political beliefs being a good aggregate for what makes you successful/intelligent.

[@philipstrugar587]

Mad Respect for both of these guys after watching this. They disagreed left and right but never once showed any hostility towards one another! This was a fun watch!

[@JimFortune]

"Disney's not an industry." The question was about companies.

[@CunnininnuC]

I think isratel is doing a really good job of making ideas seem much more inflammatory than they actually are before getting to what the actual point is

[@alpinegh]

I think Scientist Mike started losing his traction around 26ish minutes. This is also around the time Dr. Mike started pushing back as well. Around 27:58, SM is talking about how connections can help you short term and uses the "hire my son," example. The reality is that foot in the door is what can change a person's trajectory. Sure, if the person truly sucks they'll get fired, but people with better qualifications might not even get a chance for that job just because they didn't know the dudes dad. I know countless people who have succeeded on the backs of the connections their family has. It also provides a SOLID safety net because you have a bunch of people that can pull you up.

[@zanegrattan6637]

I think it's important to know that short term means less than 300 years , not less than 5 years. Nepotism will help in the short term but 5-6 generations of it will be detrimental.

[@thomaswilliamson625]

@@zanegrattan6637, exactly well said.

[@alexgrinage]

You're both right. Bald mike seemed to focused the super highed of feilds but also he's say that isnt that isnt a major factor witch i agree. I know you can look at siblings and the difference shows you how this doesnt help if drive/ desire/ consciousness isnt there

[@chiptunememories5717]

Spectacular interview. Thank you for not censoring this.