Analyzing a PLO hand (with a guest host!)

[@FefeLeVrai]

Very confused as to why this isn't a slam dunk check-raise on the flop. A pot size raise, if called, puts the pot at around $60 and the remaining stacks at around $20, so you're never folding on any turn card since even if opponent just completed a straight or a flush you have the odds to draw to a boat on the river. Just calling flop with top set on a drawy board, especially since hero's hand blocks made hands and unblocks draws, feels like the usual terrible slowplay. What's even the argument for not raising? Being afraid of being an underdog to a monster draw? A set is ahead of a straight flush draw, it's also ahead of a wrap. It's only behind a wrap plus flush draw, and even then not by much.

[@hcantrell10]

He says that check raising flop is fine, just that it’s the higher variance play. Unless the LJ is a complete fish, his cbet pot range on flop will likely get it in with us on the flop and we will just have to hold or boat up if his draw comes in on turn. There’s nothing wrong with reraising flop and getting it in, some people just like to take some variance out of the game by seeing more streets before committing all the money. Personally, I’m check raising flop and just getting it in with the nuts.

[@FefeLeVrai]

Just calling flop is extremely high variance as well, since you never know where you're at. If turn completes the straight and opponent bets you can't know whether he just made a straight or is semibluffing with a flush draw. At least raising flop is clearly EV+, while calling is just a way to put yourself in horrible spots.

[@anuchittedprasit8825]

It is. Very easy raise given flop check. Idk why this needed to be a 30minute video.

[@modestomouso1234]

Just a disclaimer, I’m primarily a Hold Em player, not a big PLO guy. But x/r flop can be dangerous because there are just so many bad cards for us in the deck. Say this dude has a combo draw (like he actually did), any club, A, K, J, or 9 leaves us in a terrible spot. When he pots it isn’t he kind of pricing himself in to call a raise here? He’s almost never folding that hand to a x/r, so honestly I don’t really see what it accomplishes.

[@ligafftheindifferent3495]

@@modestomouso1234 If you are deeper....I agree. This is why I only prefer about 100 - 150 big blinds. But when you can get the SPR well under 1, this check raise is practically the ONLY way to play this hand. It is HIGHLY unlikely that this flop checks around. If it does, I can if the turn completes a better hand and I can check raise if it does not.

[@branchtana315]

I'm fairly new to PLO, but something discussed about the flop that I've seen a lot in my limited PLO experience is "donk leading". It seems like in PLO we aren't playing in flow as a standard line like we usually do in NLH. I've talked to some more experienced PLO players that I know and have been told that I need to forget about automatically checking to the PF raiser. While we will obviously do so, in seems like leading into the PF raiser is a more common line in PLO, since equity denial is so much more important.

[@ligafftheindifferent3495]

The term 'donk leading' is not applicable to PLO. The reason is clear. Someone connects with the flop. As the pre flop raiser, my fold equity on the flop and later streets is MUCH lower than in NL. For this reason, our c-betting frequency will be much lower and will mostly be with hands that can call a raise. This is especially true since a free card can make a HUGE difference in your hand and so betting and folding to a check raise is a disaster. This shifts a bit when only 2 or 3 people see the flop, but it is still a big difference from NL. For all of these reasons, you will usually just bet your hand on the flop, regardless of your position. The one exception might be when you flop trips+. (not a set) on a dry board with 1 or 2 opponents. Now an overpair might get out of line..

[@branchtana315]

@@ligafftheindifferent3495 Of course the term "donk leading" is applicable in PLO, it's applicable in any poker game. It's often viewed with a negative connotation because it has the word donk in it, but it's nothing but an unofficial term for betting into the PF aggressor before the PF aggressor has had a chance to act post-flop. As for your reasoning of why donk-leading, errrr, playing out of flow, is more prevalent in PLO as opposed to NLH, it makes a lot of sense. Thank you for the explanation. 🙂

[@nikitakucherov5028]

In this hand Im check raise shoving on the flop.... this little of stack it feels that it must be wrong not to get all in with top set!

[@fugyaself2133]

At this stakes PLO with that much in the pot way more hands are calling that turn all in with less than the nuts. Top set plays out well vs a double flush draw because it covers some flush outs in full houses.

[@zerrez9791]

with plo the first thiung i learned was fast play the nuts if the nuts can change with a single card

[@danielmarx3106]

Do we call jam on 2h river?

[@andrewross9132]

How does a 5 complete a straight?

[@joes.8351]

15:05 he corrects that statement.

[@matthewgary6843]

10 seconds into the video, I notice the background composite. What fraternity?

[@1981lemberg]

Number one thing is for me at least is that I play even tighter and a p l o then I do in no limit hold them. I also always assume somebody's got the nuts. So unless I can mathematically beat the knots that I'm assuming somebody has I'm folding. Also I rarely rarely bluff in PLO and I still almost always get paid when I do have it

[@keepitsimple693]

Yea no, less than 100bb effective flop and turn are absolutely check rips, turn you still have the 2nd nuts and his bet size makes me think he has exactly what he had. He made a huge turn mistake and you let him off the hook by CCing.

[@keepitsimple693]

to add to that if you did want to see a safe turn to donk pot turn he only has 1 hand that beats you, still has a ton of hands that fold out significant equity (fold equity is 100% equity btw) and he has a ton of hands that continue either not getting proper odds or completely smoked.

[@joes.8351]

Interesting theory about reviewing winning hands, it makes sense but it’s not the human thing to do. It’s almost like how I used to make the mistake of playing long sessions when I was stuck and when I was running good I would cut the session short. Anybody know where to find a PLO5/PLO6 calculator?

[@danmessarge2240]

Holy shit the analysis for a $40 hand is over the fucking top. Top set is check-raise ram jam get it in OOP this short-stackef. Holy shit who is this guy Bart has doing analysis holy shit he is still talking about this fucking hand like it's high stakes and 500 bbs deep what the fuck am I even listening to rn???

[@Slifdoggy]

5 is clean on the turn

[@liadkald]

Love the channel. Great hand analysis! Please add more PLO content.

[@1981lemberg]

Pot pot repot!! How many times you want to run it?? LOL

[@jonathangoldsmith7832]

Dana sounds like Jonathan Little.

[@noahschmartz2354]

The great game.

[@davids4063]

Talk for 30 minutes about a top set with an spr of 5? Can make it $30 and have $10 behind. Leading is OK, but Id rather see a free turn than see a turn inna bloated pot where now I can get blown off my equity. Check calling lets 2 or 3 players behind chase medoocre draws for a good price! Make them pay. Also if you flat, you let TT and 55 off the hook when a scare card comes. Get that shit in there, if they fold a nake flush draw or sd... you want to give 3 player a shot at their draws with a good price and let coolers off the hook. . its really not bad if they call or fold, as long as we jam.

[@benpage8413]

👌Great hand, analysis and caller

[@chicagorealtynow]

I do play PLO and I don't like this analysis.. When Ryan says "a bad card is any card from a 5 to an Ace(8:40) can be a bad card for hero's hand because it completes some sort of straight", it is just completely wrong.. a 5 DOESN'T complete any draws.. a 6 gives hero a boat. Any card from a 7 and higher is bad for hero unless its a paired board or a Queen. Thankfully he does correct his statement further into the video but the harm has already been done. I do agree when he says.. "we can evaluate turns based on what our opponent does." Not really considering opponent range and instead shifts the analysis to a lower board... ??? What does that have to do with this board? Throwing in too many concepts and adding confusion. Did reviewer review this hand before he did this analysis? It seems like he was just winging it to me. I believe hero is a dog to a wrap and that doesn't even come into the discussion. Hero has no blockers to flush or straights. "We're allowing villain to realize equity going to the turn.." Villain is going to realize his equity weather we check or raise. When throwing in opponent with 2 pair is pointless. Opponent's range is a clear straight or flush draw and/or both on the turn. When caller asks "donk the turn?" Simple answer is What are you trying to accomplish and what happens when raised? It serves no purpose. We're not stuck on a 8 on the turn, we strictly in Bluff Catcher territory. Ace of club and Ace of spade are still in play so villain could be still behind a massive wrap with a massive advantage. I really do enjoy crushlivepoker but adding in PLO hands like this really is a bad idea because it really just creates more confusion on concepts that aren't helpful. Instead of being helpful, it is just harmful to players.

[@davidh3928]

Hahah the damage has already been done? You realize he wasn't coaching while the guy was playing live right? I imagine Ryan is new to taking calls and posting them. It would be natural to be a little anxious and possibly make an error doing so the first time. But as you say he corrected it afterwards and anyone watching the video can still learn from the corrected video. There is such a thing as replay. Also if someone does catch it like you the pro did then good for you it means you are doing well or someone else might be catching on. I found the video a nice change of pace. It's good to give constructive feedback but is it necessary to beat the guy up?

[@1981lemberg]

A few mandatory things you should know about PLO... This is a flop game. Always drow to the nuts. Know how to pot control. Position is more important in this game than no limit hold them. If you going to play you better have a big bankroll.

[@1981lemberg]

Also you need to understand. Even if you flop the nuts, you could be mathematically behind. I folded the best hand on the flop plenty of times

[@bluedog424]

Yeah....gotta disagree with most of these comments. You all need to slow down and listen to EVERYTHING this dude says. He's next level smart.... just listen to how he explains how the villain actually lost money. If you're on that level....live and in the hand....then wow. But I'm not buying it.....cause if you were, you'd realize that this dude knows his shit. Very interesting to see and hear who Bart talks poker with.....

[@Saracinderallasushis]

If you are a good Holden player, why are you so bad at Omaha?

[@1981lemberg]

I cannot listen to people who got verbal crutches!! Bro stop saying Ummm

[@bradhoward]

O H !!