Analyzing the Elements of Wuthering Waves

[@EXTRA_WAVY]

⚠*WARNING* ⚠ *WUWA Hot Button Issue:* Elemental Reactions _Mere mention of those two words together cause 15% of people to lose their minds an disregard every other point or idea made._ _This is believed to be brought on by severe Genshin-Ridiculopathy._ _These people have been known to ignore the fact that type-damage systems have existed in prior games like Pokemon, Fire Emblem, Final Fantasy, and many others._ _Research is inconclusive, but tests show that they might not believe ice golems should receive additional damage from fire characters._ My sincere apology to all those still suffering.

[@rudeimouto3034]

Or maybe people just don't want to be forced to pull characters of a certain element to fill artificial "holes" in their account. You're a moron that can't see the hypocrisy in your own video. You say that "Healer powercreep makes the other healers useless because you can just use the best option" which is 1st of all wrong because characters have a niche without relying on elements but whatever. How is having elemental damage bonuses not the same? Why would you use any other DPS if for example only Fusion is good against a certain enemy, therefore you would use only fusion and only the best fusion, effectively removing not just any other FUSION dps in the game but just ALL OTHER dps in the game, and if you don't have a fusion dps, sucks to suck I guess? While with the current system you just look at the enemy resistance, and you remove that one element from your roster, free to use whatever the hell else you have on your account, elemental buffs in ToA ending up being just a nice bonus instead of a requirement, and you don't have to pull for certain elements or reactions.

[@rexevan6714]

Personally I dont like elements reaction in Wuwa. What I would like to see is special buffs for same-elements party. For example team with 3 ice elements get Ice RES penetration, etc. this will incentives player to play Ice support (like baizhi) to other type elements.

[@leukos22]

9:28 I remember reading that interview and coming up with a wildly different conclusion from that first bullet-point. One of the chief criticisms of the game's story is that the characters don't interact with one another and only seem to exist to be a part of their self-contained story in relation to the Rover. It's from that understanding that I saw that bullet-point addressing that concern head-on and how future character stories will involve that "ensemble cast" mentioned so we can expect more characters to be friends/relatives to other characters and to have their own stories be more developed; rather, this is more of a bullet-point on the topic of the story rather than the gameplay/combat side of things. If anything, bullet-point #3 is the only bullet-point that concerns the combat aspect of the game.

[@MarcosPaulo-qi7dj]

Yes, and unfortunately it doesn't tell anything - it's a "we're working on it" type of response. Not unexpected from these kinds of interviews, but still...

[@nerospapa8814]

Intro/Outro offer some flexibility than Elemental reaction. Fyi kuro did implement elemental reaction on alpha but scrap the formula and implement intro/outro. Intro/outro formula can benefits future character because kuro can design the kits individually. And make team building more flexible. Take a look at sanhua rn she can buff any dps after her outro to ramp up dps damage.

[@tobizerker4153]

I would rather have mechanics be tied to a characters kit rather than a new system mechanics. Characters who are made to use the newer system mechanics tend to force themselves as the new dmg threshold, and with that means the older characters get pushed out of the lime light. However, tying things to a mechanic of a character is easier to balance with the rest of the cast by comparison.

[@heyohworld4067]

I find it interesting that people keep making the argument we NEED to make the elemental system more interractive or powercreep will be a problem... if that's the case, where is it in Wuwa? Jiyan is literally the strongest DPS in the game ("double dragon tech") and he was the first limited character dropped.... meanwhile games with an elemental reaction system like ZZZ have already seen massive powercreep; M0 Miyabi > M6 Ellen Joe lmao. Powercreep is impacted much more by how greedy and uncreative a company is than the issues brought up in this video. People like to say that Shorekeeper is just better Verina.. but any quickswap enjoyers will tell you that Verina is still the preferred healer in those comps due to her much faster rotation. And there are still multiple niches that haven't been introduced in the 5* limited pool (strong atk, skill dmg, basic atk, resolution dmg) buffers. Combat freedom is one of Wuwa's major focal points and any type of elemental reaction system will severely limit the number of viable team comps and is better left alone. You'll notice that every single DPS will have a disproportionate amount of their dmg scaling afixed to a particular dmg type (Jiyan - Heavy atk, Jinhsi - Skill dmg, Camellya -Basic atk, XLY - Liberation dmg). Wuwa already has mechanics in place to combat powercreep; namely the different dmg types: Basic Atk, Heavy Atk, Skill dmg, Coordinated atks, Liberation dmg. As far as team comps and powercreep are concerned these are the levers they will push and pull to combat powercreep while still giving us a wide breath of team compositions to utilize. Adding additional levers in the form of elemental reactions is unnecessary and will likely lead to more problems than solutions. I'm not opposed to some type of elemental weakness system, though -- especially since elemental resistance is already a thing👍

[@Exoskel2]

If anything current elemental system slows down the powercreep since you can just release different element each patch before powercreep hits.

[@Gheniel_]

They will introduce the DoT in 2.0-2.1 for even more variety, so they can diversify character kits distributing their dmg through all of these dmg types + playstyle type + DoT effects and other few new mechanics they are adding that will make the game MORE balanced than it already is

[@patata4799]

Ngl this channel is the best wuwa cc, no drama just pure quality content

[@smashingguy336]

I like weakness not reaction

[@EXTRA_WAVY]

That's a fair take. A weakness system is definitely better than not having anything.

[@kilo1901]

That classic elemental system.

[@Einbrock]

Many other games work fine without elemental reaction, having it exist in a fast-paced action game is a balancing nightmare. If the reaction is too good or even just being mediocre, it's still a mandatory mechanic that players have to engage with to finish a ToA stage faster. Now, rather than get creative with the team comp, play however you like, the game becomes a team-building simulator where you have to get a certain reaction going or the boss won't die as quick as needed, new characters must be balanced around the reaction which limiting the devs creativity in crafting unique and interesting gameplay. If the reaction is bad then just save players and the devs the headache and remove it all together. New echo sets with more various forms of buffs and debuffs is a much better way to keep older characters from being powercreep if done right, the more the devs release them the more options for old characters to choose and keeping up with the expanding content

[@MagisterialVoyager]

i don't really do meta, so i'm just here to support you, lol.

[@EXTRA_WAVY]

Aw, thank you so much! I appreciate that. I hope you have a fantastic New Year! ✨🥂🎉

[@sweetwinter4803]

It is such a difficult matter to tackle, on one hand I love the fact that i'm not forced to pull for units I don't like just to make my fav character deal a lot of damage but at the same time, elements in wuwa really don't matter that much, oh this boss is resistant to electro dmg? Fine just use any dps from the other 5 elements and you're good to go, I personally think if they added some sort of mechanic that depends on the element, like for example, using intro intro skill with a character from a certain element followed by another intro from another character with a different element would trigger a special skill icon that you press, that adds dmg, debuffs or buffs... and not making that specifically tied to characters, perhaps that way the freedom of choosing whichever character you want is preserved while also making the element of your character have a role in the combat, but I don't know perhaps that wouldn't be a good idea.

[@gabbyaspira4574]

On the lore, there are obvious difference between resonators and tacet discord. They are complete opposite in the in-game description. If u see the number of dmg dealed by boss or any other enemies, they can't compared to what a top tier dps can dish out, like Camellya. (Of course other than late stage Hologram bosses with their frankly already hard mechanisms of one hitting you, after 3 mins or 2(?) forgot the time, the boss will start to increase it's dmg in set intervals of a few seconds, infinitely, till the timer runs out.) What I was saying, this dmg difference can be seen as a balance between low health of resonators and high health of those tacet discords, but we could see in lore it's more of resonators are able to control, concentrate high amounts of energy to inflict massive dmgs to a single target than TDs whose power scaling is more based on how much destruction they can cause on their surroundings. From this difference, even if there will be a character that can freeze enemies on their outro, Kuro can't break the laws they made on how the Universe of Wuthering waves functions to arbitarily make such a character without background and lore to justify their abilities.

[@forg3t.601]

But the pb about interaction between element is how to find a system that is not obsolete and doesn’t have the same restriction as GI element reactions First route is keep the element independent, which js the less restrictive prefered route: bosses already apply element specific debuffs and have highe defense, so maybe a simple weakness against system with more creative debuffs from both enemies and resonators can be fun ( resonators have some form of immunity against their own element attack) Second one i can think off is to do something with the dreamlink: but only on the two supporting characters element matter . This allows for some more flexible team comp and still allow some quick swap (which is arguably the most important mechanics of the game) team to not get overshadowed by the element system.

[@EXTRA_WAVY]

Thanks for your opinion. I agree, especially on the point of doing more with dreamlink. There's so much potential there when it comes to team oriented attacks and effects. Characters having increased resistance to their element sounds interesting too. Especially if there will be areas where environmental damage becomes a factor.

[@DT-bo1zk]

Looking at the ailment effects of each element in the tutorial is a good starting point to understand what kind of combat dynamic do those elements have, what should and shouldn't be done to not compromise the build-up and release tension aspect of combat. -spectro frazzle: DoT, more stacks more dmg, deal dmg and reduce 1 stack periodically (equal to stack's duration) -aero erosion: DoT, more stack more dmg, deal dmg periodically, end when duration end, maintain by apply the effect -havoc bane: stack automatically increase to max then remove effect, deal dmg to current target and spread the effect to nearby targets and repeat the process -fusion burst: remove all stacks when maxed and burst dmg -electro flare: reduce atk, affect movements with certain conditions -frost chafe: reduce movement speed, frozen at max stacks Fun fact, all characters can actually inlfict those effects but there is no obvious visual indicator to show that they exist and no way to know which attack or how consistent can they inflict those effects.

[@kitanat9944]

Yup, they need to make that stuff more obvious, but there are implementations in game. Just need to have characters interact more with those systems instead of it mostly being from enemies (especially bosses).

[@nyeffer9414]

I think their leaning on this, in the future patch as a lot of people forget this part of the combat, we just know this as something enemies use but not the players

[@doedoel035]

Not much to add because I can't come up with a solid answer regarding elemental reaction in WuWa, but for the interview in the last portion of the video, I think it's referring to the story: Stronger interaction as in interaction in story (i.e Some players are frustrated we haven't interacted much with the cast in game, like Calcharo, Danjin, Yuanwu), certain elements of Solaris as in, different factions (Calcharo's merc gang, Midnight Rangers, etc). As someone already pointed out, the only combat related point is the 3rd one.

[@EXTRA_WAVY]

I guess that's also a way to look at it. The questions were about combat, so I interpreted them in that light. But you might be right on that viewpoint. It isn't unheard of for CEOs to dodge questions XD

[@bronnies007]

Elemental Reaction, is the reason POWERCREEP EXIST

[@c4ssini_1]

These are all really good points. Great video.

[@EXTRA_WAVY]

Aye~!! Glad you like them!! 👍🏽

[@user-rk1ck1hw9i]

Glad i found your channel! In the sea of CC covering Wuwa drama which is draining and negative to watch- your content is a breath of fresh of air! Keep it up!

[@alexrios5]

They are going to introduce new elements (mechanics) to the game, they already did it in Punishgray Raven, they introduced new combat elements such as the afix, the C.U.B and the s leaps for old characters

[@EXTRA_WAVY]

That’s so interesting. I’m not so familiar with the details of PGR, but that seems really cool.

[@alexrios5]

@@EXTRA_WAVY I didn't know anything about it until recently and I think it's a detail that we tend to overlook since the most popular gacha is Genshin, which to a certain extent Kurogames took inspiration from because Wuthering Waves is their first open world but it certainly has more elements of Punhis Gray Raven (PGR). I think it's better to understand how Wuthering Waves can evolve by watching a little of their previous work, the subject of the afix and others on KZbin there are explanatory videos on the subject that are quite interesting, apart from that you can get to understand more or less the way the company works.

[@alexrios5]

@@EXTRA_WAVY I would say that above all the subject of the mechanics of Afix is ​​the interesting thing since it is the most similar to reactions that PGR has and probably if Wuthering Waves comes to implement something similar it will be closer to the base of that mechanic or something similar to CBT 1 than an elemental reaction per se.

[@tonys202]

For the 1.x patches it was good to have enemies with single resistances because the character roster is still low. Devs did an amazing job with designing characters soo far, ending with not much powercreep, and from the looks of it they're still working on making Main dps for an ele + a dedicated support for them (like XY + yinlin, or Carlotta + Zhezhi) but once we get close to filling all the slots, they should start by making bosses that are weak to 2 elements and resisting others to not overwhelm players with forcing them to invest in to odd options. but if that wasnt enough, they could even try to make characters and bosses interacting with their weapon type, like imagine a better "verina" that would excel on buffing gun users, or boss that resists dmg from sword users. Elemental reactions or other similar ideas like.. beta concerto reactions Actualy would end up limiting the design space more and would easier lead to powercreep since There is no way they would make them equal, Just look at early genshin, even back then not every combination was good and electro was deemed useless as an element, genshin is also an example of How to not design characters around it and i personaly deem it as one of the most mishandled combat systems in gachas.

[@zussy8399]

I would very much like weakness!!! That’s the best thing that could be added

[@EXTRA_WAVY]

I agree. I feel like it's something not to complicated but adds a lot. I want to set fire to the Mt. Firmament icecubes with Changli so badly 😔😔😔

[@hikarii53]

For me, it does not have to be elements. It's up for devs to blend and incorporate systems in any form, whether it's elemental reactions, combat interactions, or elemental restrictions to build the aspect of team building. What matters is they do things with respect to the appropriate amount of characters currently available together. And they are doing just that. I am not against elemental reactions (though please, any type of reaction would do just not the kind of Genshin Impacts), but I think it's not really that needed currently. We haven't even completed all the best teams in all of the elements; diversity still exists in the game. One thing I am fully open to is the 'weakness'. Buff and weakness in tandem are like staples in other games; it's very direct, and I don't see it being a problem if they decide to implement it. I see it being applied when there are more units in the game. I personally prefer overworld bosses having only resistance, but that's just me.

[@hikarii53]

[THESIS VERSION. YOU CAN SKIP THIS, MY COMMENT IS BASICALLY THE TLDR.] I think that 'dynamics' of elemental reactions can exist in another form and is not exclusive to that game design. I played Pokemon for quite awhile and grasped its system fairly decently. It consists of so many elements, which is 19, and a pokemon can have dual elements. This alone places so many niches and specialties available, until introduced with the fact that there are 1000+ Pokemon. However, the combat of Pokemon is not all about elements since Pokemon have abilities, natures, stat ceilings, EVs, IVs, items, set moves, exclusive features, etc.; they are all taken into account when making a full team. And that's what I want to point out in this discussion. There is and can be so much more than element vs. element. Sanhua and Yinlin are both good with everyone, but they offer different specialties being low field time and coordinated attack respectively. Changli is currently the best quickswap unit because of the nature of her abilities, yet for the same reason, she's not that good in burst build, unlike her duo for double dps quickswap Xiangli Yao existing on both ends of the spectrum. The same principle applies to how Camellya's kit discourages her from doing quickswap while being one of, if not the best burst DPs. Shorekeeper is designed for full rotations, perfect for characters like Jinhsi, who is so powerful you can put a level 1 unbuilt Yuanwu to her and she'll do just as fine; only that you'll need Verina instead because of her high concerto output. Shorekeeper, who's designed for full rotations, is a pillar to one of the best quickswap teams; but it's highly mechanical and follows a very strict rotation, not everyone will feel the need or even be able to learn. Yangyang and Zhezhi are air-combat-friendly supports who both give energy. Jianxin and Taoqi are for people who cannot live without a shield and they can both parry. While Jianxin and Yangyang are both grouping units. Lingyang, Camellya, and Jinhsi are able to follow enemies even when they escape 2000 feet up the atmosphere, which is the same benefit as Aalto and Chixia's long-ranged combat but on the ground and solo targets. Again, my point is that character dynamics can exist in other ways besides elements. There is also an untapped feature, which is the element immune mobs. They're not putting them on the highest floors of TOA, but I bet the moment they do, elements will suddenly feel extra important. I wanna disagree about the 'totally useless element' because the majority of people who brute force towers without the need for tower buffs are people who have signature weapons on the majority of their units, and not all of us are like that. The element buffs are requirements to follow for people like me who are f2p and almost always lose 50/50 and therefore have no 5* weapon besides the free given one. We cannot complete those towers without those buffs. Not to mention the resistances I have to avoid. So there are two layers of elemental restrictions in Resonant and Echoing Towers for people like me. The amount of towers, my amount of units, the present enemy resistance, and present tower buffs all play a role in team building for me. Elements are not entirely useless. Now let's talk about attributes, because that's another thing. Zhezhi is Jinhsi's BiS support. But Jinhsi is Spectro, so her true BiS is not present yet. And as someone who has both, I almost always don't use the two together because I need to allocate their value properly. Jinhsi is so powerful I can scrape under the bag for damage to be able to complete a tower with only her, while Zhezhi is gonna be used for a double DPs Sanhua in the Glacio towers because I don't have Lingyang. TLDR: For me, it does not have to be elements. It's up for devs to blend and incorporate systems in any form, whether it's elemental reactions, combat interaction, or elemental restrictions to build the aspect of team building. What matters is they do things with respect to the appropriate amount of characters currently available together. And they are doing just that. I am not against elemental reactions (though please, any type of reaction would do just not the kind of Genshin Impacts), but I just think it's not really that needed currently. We haven't even completed all the best teams in all of the elements; diversity still exists in the game. One thing I am fully open to is the 'weakness'. Buff and weakness in tandem are like staples in other games; it's very direct, and I don't see it being a problem if they decide to implement it. I see it being applied when there are more units in the game. I personally prefer overworld bosses having only resistance, but that's just me.

[@EXTRA_WAVY]

First, thanks for offering your thoughts. I agree. Meshing different components together can provide an interesting experience. Or even enemies being susceptible to echo-type as a weakness would add a layer to combat. As far as characters and introducing niches, my personal favorite option is allowing their abilities to inflict increased damage based on type or enemy weakness. On reactions, they seemingly had a lot of different reactions planned, its fun to look them up and imagine what the game might've been like with that playstyle. It also makes me wonder if they've decided to scrap them for good, especially reflecting on what Solon said about connecting characters with the elements of Solaris. I just realized you wrote another longer comment. Idk if you mentioned anything I just said here because I have read it yet.

[@hikarii53]

@EXTRA_WAVY The echo concept is interesting since they already kind of incorporated echoes but only for parries and such, expanding on that feels very natural. Damage type stacking would probably introduce some kind of mono element teams. While enemy weakness means two or more elements can be weaknesses of one type of enemy. Idk if I'm getting them right but they feel more like the classic elemental system, I personally like the latter one where enemies have multiple elemental weaknesses. I can see it introducing some kind of mix-and-match aspect when we finally have multiple DPs and support in the game. I looked up the old elemental reactions of WuWa. Honestly, it's so much for me to absorb, and I can't intuitively create some kind of system out of it. It's like Genshin Impacts, but not entirely. It'll probably restrict Kuro's way of creating character kits. Some are very cool though, especially the time-stop and pull-effect. I think these linear effects would be great to pair with the damage type stacking idea you mentioned. It's like the annoying mechanic of Mourning Aix.

[@camillecutler6868]

Baizhi actually does buff Glacio, she's not used much because there aren't good glacio DPS yet. She'll probably be BiS or close to it on Carlotta.

[@equinox2909]

For me as long as they add more difficulty on mobs but not inflating their HP will be enough. I mean, if they decide to add more equipments and niches so long for the players to enjoy more of the game or they can add like the very hard diffulty where drop rates are better but Hp and hitting prowess of enemies are insane so that players can really use their properly built characters like endless tower that will have more rewards as you progress.

[@joshatryu4719]

Very nice point. I hope that the developers watch this video

[@EXTRA_WAVY]

Yeah man, I hope so too!🙌🏽

[@hentikirby7142]

An Element weakness in other games sure, but in a gacha game where premium currency is paid with real world dollars in large sums. Nah it can get very predatory ery quickly. Instead of relevancy through example: my color is different. Kuro's solution is gameplay element is what keeps them relevant. Verina is good in quick swap and shorekeeper cant intrude upon that since her buff requires her to go through a specific condition or order to be better utilized.

[@hakumenx1]

4:10 this is false. Theres a notable difference you either didnt know, which is concerning, or you intentionally ignored. Those are not healers, those are damage ampers who can heal. You will not use Baizhi in a Jinshi comp, youd more than likely refrain from using shorekeeper in said comp as well. Verina is a coordinated attacker who can heal and damage amp. Shes the perfect support for Jinshi compared to the others because of her cycle speed allowing duo cycles on top of the fact Jinshi needs coordinated attacks to feed her Forte. Shorekeeper is mono line damage amplifier + nuker meaning she does best in teams that cycle in 1 direction back to her or very fast fortes that still cycle back to her. "Which means there is no specialty or niche" which is false if you read their kits. You wont use Sanhua in a party that doesnt really need her outro buff but she remains competitive in team comps that do. That is a niche and specialty, normal attack buffing and short Forte cycle. The problem with thid video is that it approached the premise in an erroneous fashion by stripping the characters of their kits and forcing them into "roles" you ignore everything that character actually provides. The mage isnt a mage. The mage is a coordinated attacker that amplifies heavy attack damage and buffs the attack of the person coming in.

[@EXTRA_WAVY]

@@hakumenx1 You cannot see the forest because of the trees. Meaning, you’re caught up on attempting to 1:1 an example for something it wasn’t meant to illustrate. That doesn’t make it false just because you primarily use a healer to buff. It’s still a healer. The original point is if a character preforms the same role as another character but better, it lowers the 1st character value. Please don’t straw-man or take things out of context

[@hakumenx1]

​@EXTRA_WAVY i didnt take anything out of context. Theres no such thing as "a better healer" because each healer serves entirely different roles. Spectro rover is also a healer guess what all they provide outside of it? Youre not picking a healer because they can heal, youre picking a healer because of what they provide outside of healing which is the real main draw. Speaking of the "forest for the trees".

[@EXTRA_WAVY]

@@hakumenx1 You’re attempting to be obtuse and arguing semantics. It really isn’t hard to understand the point being made. Yes, the best healers often perform other beneficial actions in addition to healing. Your argument is in bad faith because you that’s common knowledge and doesn’t need to be explained. Also, some characters do heal better, which contributed to any number of variables (eg. Faster, more consistent, easier to activate, larger heal, etc). Nonetheless, in the point illustrated the role could be replaced with any character archetype (eg. Buffer, dps, coordinated attacker, etc) and still remain a relevant example. What are you waffling about?

[@radcat4317]

TL'DR: I'd also like more interaction between elements in WuWa and elemental weaknesses are needed ASAP, but reactions won't solve the issue especially if implemented in a 1:1 way they are in Genshin, if anything they'll add whole bunch of new problems. In advance, sorry for the essey. Alright, from a perspective of someone who plays WuWa from release, and played Genshin since release until 5.3 and dabbled in theorycrafting, NOT implementing elemental reaction system the way Genshin did it was the best decision Kuro made. Elemental reaction system can very easily overshadow characters and stiffle creativity in kit designs in the long run because suddenly everything has to fit in rigid frame of reactions, as every reaction has set recipe you need to follow, which is easily visible in Genshin, especially in multiplicative and Dendro-based reactions. If it doesn't fit, it's clunky at best, useless at worst. Now to the points of the video: 1:48 - Yeah if you disregard entire buff/debuff system which is main part of multiple character kits and echoes. Elemental weakness is needed though, absolutely. 1:51 - Sorry, I don't see how that's a bad thing? If a main part of character kit is just their attribute/element and effects linked to that, there's no point in making new characters (OPPA Xiangling) unless you do the same character just with better numbers to get more $$$ from players. 2:29 - Check two lines above. 3:23 - Missed analogy, as you completely disregard the question of HOW is the damage delivered in your example. 4:15 - Again, you disregard any other aspect of the character that can be a factor in deciding which character to use and just boiled it down to "element don't matter so it's all the same". 4:25 - How is situation with reactions different? If you have reactions tied to element, then new character with few % higher stats will still push down other characters of similar role and elements (i.e. Diluc->Hu Tao->Arlecchino, Tartaglia->Ayato->Neuvillette) and even in in others as well (i.e. Xilonen singlehandedly making entire Anemo roster unemployed outside of strictly mobbing content (which is barely relevant nowadays)). Add to that potential teammates overlap and it gets even more murky. 4:42 - Sure, and then you're get characters being pigeonholed into very specific niche due to their element, because their reactions/synergies that are too good to ever use anything else. 5:15 - No, not really. It's same with or without reactions. Genshin is the best example of this. There are plenty of characters who were replaced by "pretty much the same" characters with better numbers (especially in Pyro & Hydro elements). On the other side, i.e. Xiangling weren't replaced because she's broken character who abuses/ignores main limitations of reaction systems (no ICD on pyronado) and Hoyo never (at the time of writing) in 4+ years released another off-field Pyro dps. And now Hoyo is adding arbitrary region-relevant mechanics (nightsoul in Natlan, pneuma/ousia in Fontaine to a lesser degree) in attempt to make something else than just another Xingqiu just with higher numbers (as well as to artificially limit viability of older characters, I guess). 5:50 - I mean, feature creep is inevitable unless you're doing the same thing over and over. It's just the question of how well you can balance adding new stuff with retaining user comfort. 6:00 - Again, why is focus on characters and not on attributes bad? Seems like a direct opposite to me. If you focus on attributes/elements and not characters, then you're playing elements, not characters, which drastically cuts down diversity in potential kit designs and teambuilding (again, Genshin is a perfect example, every (relevant) reaction has its go-to core and then you juggle 1, max 2 characters whose playstyle is barely different from each other anyway). 6:26 - Yes, fully agree that more specific echo sets can help a lot, but as you also mentioned it would require revisiting entire echo system and its progression which Kuro really needs to do. 6:33 - I mean... it creates echo set powercreep in place of character powercreep. Which is... a bit better, I guess? 6:57 - As i (and you) mentioned in earlier, elemental weakness is an easy and efficient way to add value to elements/attributes and should be done ASAP. Reactions though... I would like more interactions between elements, but it has to be done VERY carefully for all the reasons I mentioned earlier. 7:30 - That's a point I'd advice to not speak out on without proper understanding, as there are plenty of misinformation (no, nerfing characters isn't illegal in China in principle, it's much more complicated and I won't pretend I know specific of chinese law on this) and we shouldn't just spread whatever sounds good to us. I hope my post isn't too harsh as that wasn't my point. At the and of the day there are no perfect solutions as every solution will bring its own issues, and that's what I wanted to point out.

[@EXTRA_WAVY]

1) I don't understand what you mean. The buff/debuff system isn't related to the elements. 2) It isn't a bad thing by itself. The point I'm making is that the elements lack both character and function. 3) The all the elements do the same thing, and there is very little difference. It lacks purpose. Later, I make the point that this makes characters easier to powercreep. 4) The point is that if all the characters deliver the damage in the same method, doing so, offers the same the weaknesses and benefits, eliminating the purpose of a class system in first place. The difference it only in appearance and not function. 5) They ARE all the same. That's the entire point. 6) Example: A fusion dps VS an electro dps VS a glacio dps. Currently, there's no difference between them (outside of the one enemy type they're resistant to). If there are elemental reaction and/or weakness systems, it becomes more important to have one of each dps. When the niche pool is narrow, characters can easily be replaced. You're mentioning Genshin, I haven't played in about a year (therefore I can't speak to the current state of things), but when I did play, powercreep did exist but took a long time for niches to be replaced. That's the point of the video and I mention it quite a bit. 7) This is largely done by design in Genshin Impact. Many characters have basic attacks or sometimes even skills for the sake of having them and they aren't meant to be used. Characters are designed specifically for you to only use a part of their kits. Making the elements more prominent doesn't mean slacking on designing and balancing the characters' kits. If we really get to the core of the issue, Wuthering Waves copied certain aspects of Genshin Impact (in this case, the elemental system) without also fleshing out that portion of the game. 8) True. It's not impossible for a character to be powercrept in Genshin's system, but 8a) That was intentional, and people still use those characters together because the teams allow for both characters (such as using both Yalen and Xingqui in a team) 8b) This also happened over a long period with way more characters introduced. 8c) The instances that I remember during my time with Genshin were 4stars becoming 5star variations, which isn't exactly the same thing. 8d) While Genshin is a reference point for talking an elemental system, the focus of the video discussion ISN'T Genshin despite the similarities. 9) Yes. 10) It isn't necessary to forgo properly developing the characters in favor of developing the elements. Do both. I didn't say not to. In the context of the discussion of powercreep being reduced by increasing niche options and developing a underutilized systems in the game, it makes since to talk about the elements and weaknesses over the already decent character design. 11) Yes, I did two videos on the echo system, storage, and +0 for exp 12) It depends on how it's implemented, but even if it does, all the characters of that element and niche could benefit from it. 13) Yes, it would be VERY challenging to implement a reaction system for a lot of reasons. Additionally, they would also have to revamp how enemies work and how they apply elements to the player. I didn't have time to speak on it in the video, but they originally planned such a system but removed it. For all these reasons, I think it might be unlikely to see a complete elemental overhaul with Genshin-styled reactions, but from the word choice mentioned in the interview I do think a number of things are on the horizon. Obviously, sonata sets are coming. Also, a weakness system is the easiest to implement and I feel even just that adds a lot to the elements having purpose. 14) There is no misinformation presented. Sure, characters can be nerfed, but the variables involved of the game in question matter. A MOBA isn't going to be under the same restrictions as a gacha game. I appreciate your desire to weigh in on the topic. However, I think you might be arguing and knit-picking for the sake of arguing without understanding the points being made. Broadly discussing the main topic, or choosing one sub-topic, as opposed to hyperfocusing over numerous sub-topics might provide a more productive basis for conversation in terms of getting a general mutual understanding of each other's points.

[@radcat4317]

​@@EXTRA_WAVY First of all thank you for replying. However, your statement about me "arguing for sake of arguing without understanding points" seems rather condescending and can be easily viewed as aimed to belittle and discredit other person in ad personam attack. Really unnecessary and I hope it's just mutual misunderstandment between us. I'll try to clarify my parts. 1&3) Abilities granting damage bonus depending on element (Zhezhi, Yinlin, Lumi, Changli, etc.) seems rather related to elements to me. Not in the fanciest way, sure, but still. 2&10) Sure fleshing out elements more would be good, Kuro seems to moving this direction and I think we both made clear this is something we want in our initial statements. I'm just asking to not be gung-ho about this because reactions can create more problems down the line, like in Genshin. 4&5) Okay, I think I'm starting to understand but it doesn't really make the point any better. Elements are part of entire combat system and they have to be looked as that, not as separate thing. Simplest example: Supports with coordinated attacks are inherently better option for Jinhsi because that allows to charge her forte faster, regardless of their elements. And if we are to completely fair, elements DO matter in this example because Jinhsi can gets stacks faster if damage is done by different attacks of elements. It is a rare case in WuWa, yes. But it does exist and perhaps we need more of this kind of interactions. 6) There absolutely is a difference between those characters for instance in teambuilding as different supports/buffers can grant different buffs, including to specific elemental damage. Not mention to variation in playstyle. Also counterpoint, if having a dps of each element becomes more important, that's inherently puts more pressure on players to pull (and spend) on characters who they may not be really interested in, additionally exacerbating the problem of limited resources for upgrading characters and especially echoes for them. You may look at PGR, that's exactly how it is there and let me tell you, if you lack good main dps from each element AND dedicated supports of each, you're not going to have a good time in a lot of places. Elements are not the only way to differentiate characters, but in multiple points in your video I got the feeling that this is your claim, even if it isn't. Maybe that's misunderstanding on my part, maybe we're arguing different things altogher? 7) I disagree. Making >80% of your character roster to be E-Q-swap bots shows either slacking on design or how rigid reaction system limits creativity in design. I suspect it's the 2nd one as Hoyo tried to breakaway from the mold with characters like Nilou, Chevrouse or Pneua/Ousia and Nightsoul mechanics in Fontaine & Natlan, but success of those attempts is limited, to put it mildly. Also come on, the concept of multiple damage types is as old as video games (and tabletops before them, tbf). If we go this way then we can also say that Genshin copied elemental reaction system from Mass Effect series (and it probably wasn't the first game with system like this). I'd rather not devolve the argument into "who did first", especially in such basic concept like damage types. 8) Okay, I owe further explanation here. When it comes to powercreep in Genshin, there is massive difference between simple "main dps" characters and those whose main goal is to support and/or enable reactions in the team. As far as main dps goes, powercreep exists literally since 1.1 when Tartaglia dropped and it steadily continue up to this day. With other character situation is more complicated. The argument "no powercreep in Genshin" always boils down to same few characters. Xingqiu, Xiangling, Fischl, Bennet. All of them 1.0 4*, who are obscenely overpowered, not by their numbers but by how they abuse (and are borderline irreplaceable in) reaction system. However, even then, after Furina release Xingqiu struggles to used anywhere outside of double Hydro with Yelan (as you mentioned) and there simply isn't any alternative for other 3 (no, Yae isn't Fischl, she's closer to Keqing in playstyle while being directly worse than Fischl if used in her place). You mentioned that you haven't played Genshin for over a year, which is understandable, but it means you (correct me if I'm wrong) didn't experienced Imaginarium Theater "endgame". And that would make my explaining much easier as that mode is a perfect case-study of what's wrong with elemental reaction system as it is implemented in Genshin. If you never saw it, I'd encourage you to either grit your teeth and log in once or to watch The Genshin Scientist's (TGS) video about it (called "The Imaginarium Theater Has A Lot Of Issues"). It was long one, sorry. 13) I'd say that even simple elemental weaknesses not only add value to elements "on their own" but also create an avenue for more character abilities, echo sets, weapons, etc., so it may be bring more to the table then it seems at first glance. On the subject of refused "elemental reaction system" from WuWa's beta, I feel like ditching it was the best thing to do at that point. If you look at the chart of those reactions, most of them are either mediocre or just ok, and then you have Havoc + other element shredding enemy resistance of this second element by 30% for 10s. Like, why would you ever want to use anything else? That's why I say Kuro has to be super careful when dabbling with reactions, it's easy to fuck something up and be stuck with it for eternity (*cough*hyperbloom*cough*). 14) Didn't mean specifically your video, but in online discourse in general. I should've clarify that. I hope my points (and purpose my writing them) are clearer now. And sorry for the wall of text again.

[@Jieteru-]

​@@EXTRA_WAVY the commenter had good points and saying he's arguing for the sake of arguing is just BS lol. his new reply has a very good point, "Elements are part of entire combat system and they have to be looked as that, not as separate thing" which from watching your video, i think you are giving too much credit to the "elements system" itself and not at the broader whole of the combat system of the games.

[@EXTRA_WAVY]

@@Jieteru- He clearly didn't understand the main point and was also knit-picking things that are easily understood. Such as the legality of changing the functions of characters, analogies, and mentioning misinformation when none was presented. Arguing for the sake of arguing. It's obvious that the elements are part of the entire combat system, but the point is that they have little importance in that system. There is NO reason why my Changli shouldn't do extra dmg against an ice golem or Jinhsi shouldn't do increased dmg against dreamless.

[@radcat4317]

@@EXTRA_WAVY What is your main point then? That it would be beneficial to get more interactions between elements? I agreed with this statement multiple times in both of my comments, I'm absolutely with you on elemental weaknesses. And it seems Kuro will do something in this regard as new craftable 4* weapons mention "Negative Statuses" in their passives. Also, those things are already in the game, just applied only to player character by enemies, not the other way around. The main issue is that you refuse to see combat system as a whole and you try to present elemental reactions as some kind of silver bullet solution that will solve all the issues with no downsides of their own, which is pure wishful thinking because no game is free of issues you claim elemental reactions will solve, no matter what combat mechanics they use. Sorry to say thius, but the more you comment on this, the more it seems like you're the one arguing in bad faith and try to gaslight me.

[@myst7042]

Lol, careful of what you wished for, elemental adv/dis-adv is not the solution to powercreep. I played GBF for a long time, in this game elemental is very crucial in the meta. In some boss/event, you can't literally participate if you dont have that element build, because the elemental resistance is so high, unless you are using that spesific element, your damage might as well be zero. And guess what, powercreep still happen every 1-2 months. At this point wuwa adopt the meta of using whatever dps character you like, and get a buffer that match your main dps. And i think element gonna have big impact on meta in the long run.

[@ginoladioray7064]

you make a good point as a genshin player... but not in wuwa. weakness far less complicated than reactions. maybe debuffs n buff with the elements make more sense than ur dated take.

[@EXTRA_WAVY]

I literally cover weaknesses in the same section as reactions. What are you waffling about?

[@nathanielheverly2471]

You can legally balance a gatcha, idk why people keep saying that.

[@EXTRA_WAVY]

If people like the balancing, it's fine. If not, it's a problem. It's kind of like a person being slapped. It's assault if they press charges, but if they don't, nothing happens.

[@nathanielheverly2471]

@@EXTRA_WAVY No, what I'm saying is you can legally balance in gatcha, it was very common before genshin, even in china

[@EXTRA_WAVY]

@ That’s really only if players are happy with the change. Here in Japan, if players don’t like it, it can be reported to the CCA resulting in heavy punishment for the game. I believe the same to be true for China, which is why they decided to reverse a nerf a few months ago in Genshin Impact.

[@nathanielheverly2471]

@fighting games balances individual characters that are purchased all the time in Japan this doesn’t exist in a vacuum

[@EXTRA_WAVY]

@@nathanielheverly2471 Firstly, I didn't say nerfs couldn't be implemented but that it depends on how the players receive it. However, in general this isn't usually regarded favorably in gacha games. Secondly, that's an entirely different genre. Fighting games, MOBAs, and other competitive games operate under a different standard, and people actually expect balancing as time goes on. So, while no one can speak with certainty for these genres because these things are judged case by case, if players were sufficiently unsatisfied, it's standard practice in Japan for companies to offer in-game compensation for the value of the items changed to avoid potential fines, very similar to how Wuwa granted compensation and refunds for the JP weapon banner at launch.

[@johnhallow]

Nah, no thanks. It would make the game worse imo

[@BlueyZX]

Agree

[@midwestairway]

lol you want one or two elements to be dominant and the rest of the elements scraping by, tbh some people want OP broken elements so they can narrow what characters are good and what to pull for, they want bad characters and elements, when genshin itself has been moving away from pure reaction based characters, elemental reactions can give an op advantage to a very small group of the roster, this is why the same teams have been played over and over and /or rehashed. the game doesnt have elemental reactions, deal with it.

[@Exoskel2]

Bennet xiangling xingqiu let's go!

[@midwestairway]

@@Exoskel2 genshin is this way >>>

[@BloodyVeel]

I Understand your point but in the end its just some random number like -20 % or + 20% ! This is equal to what 2 Minimum Rolls ! But this is bigger problem than yours if i can get those 20 % on 3 4 star Characters will be e -+ 60 % Now This is Equal To S2R1 Limited Character or More Shorekeeper S2 + Weapon its 54 % Buff They can add 5% For Imerssion but thats is probablly the maximum and not worth the efort ! New Sonata Efects and if they add Dreamlink in Tower and Overworld will be enough for 2.0 ! My opinon trough i also wanna see new combat mechanics but not with big increase !

[@blastchaos4286]

I would go the other direction and just remove the element system altogether. Your point of it being mostly meaningless in the game's current state is valid, and I especially resonated with what you said about any unique features being tied to character kits and not the element itself. The only real purpose of elements is to determine what kind of echo sets to put on your damage dealer. I think this game really wouldn't lose much of anything by having no elements at all on the characters, and it would just open even more room for flexibility in designing characters or even echo sets.

[@itshaha3726]

Finally some noriced, i also hope they do smth because rn the system/power scaling kind of starts to look like HSR 2 and that would be bad

[@Jieteru-]

How? Jiyan is literally one of, if not the best dps right now and he was on the first limited banner

[@LukeTreestandBlueCPanis]

I am still using Calcharo as main dps and he is 1.0 standard banner. The game’s combat system enables me to use him effectively. I don’t feel or observe the HSR levels you are saying.

[@doedoel035]

bumping because I'm interested how you see it like "HSR 2"

[@itshaha3726]

@@Jieteru- 1: Jiyan is the worst limited 5 star DPS 2: I said it is starting to look like it because there are practically no distinctions between dp's other than their damage, the progression in power is linear af ( no niche's etc. )

[@Luckyoubetteroilup]

​@itshaha3726Jiyan isn't that bad you need his supporters to play him My jiyan can still milk out more dmg than my changli lol

[@Prodigal450]

Ppl are so used to debuffing and elemental reactions that they don't know how to act when they get something completely different. You want more of the same? Go play previous titles

[@ShianCyan]

Good video 👍

[@EXTRA_WAVY]

Aw man! Glad you enjoyed it! ✨✨🌊

[@SrajalJain]

Very nice vid 2md comments

[@EXTRA_WAVY]

Thanks brother!! ✨🌊

[@brandonreamer]

I love Pokemon as much as the next guy, but your explanation of the attributes show a lack understanding the game, and you whole arugemner falls apart as soon as you look any game that has what you want and there power creep problems

[@EXTRA_WAVY]

I disagree. I don't think you heard or understood the nuances to everything said. Galvanizing character and elemental niches does *NOT* prevent powercreep. I even say that it's a natural for ongoing titles like these to develop powercreep in the video. One of the main points I make is that defining a variety of character niches slows powercreep. I believe that is why we see a large variety of character niches in numerous other games in the genre for this very reason.

[@brandonreamer]

@@EXTRA_WAVY the problem with that is you are not define the niches in the way the game dose your Rolls don't work,

[@miragames9475]

0:56 then why put elements in the game where there are no reactions to use them ??