How Echoes Of Wisdom Has "Fixed" The Zelda Formula...

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Күн бұрын

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@ravenebony2267 Ай бұрын

Echoes structure is exactly what i wanted for the Zelda format going forward. Several dungeons you can beat in any order, followed by a significant story point, followed by several more dungeons you can beat in the order of your choice. In the meantime, with the map being so open, as long as the regions around all of the later dungeons have plenty of early game content to interact with, i think that would be just about ideal. Well, for me, anyway.

@nindieboy4194 Ай бұрын

Plus you get several new ways (echoes) to beat the other dungeons differently. E.G. I beat the zora dungeon before the gerudo dungeon and did most things with the echo of building water blocks. It would be totally different if I did it first. This makes multiple playthroughs worthwhile! I love that. Older Zelda titles you don't need to replay imo.

@jacksonvoet8312 Ай бұрын

Perfect mix of linear and freedom.

@rebeccahannah117 Ай бұрын

I really enjoyed EoW way more than Totk, probably because it felt like Nintendo kind of went back to traditional Zelda with EoW and I really missed that. I really did love and enjoy both botw and Totk, but I really missed that traditional Zelda gameplay.

@GlimmerMythra4 Ай бұрын

Same here 😊

@Refreshment01 Ай бұрын

Not gameplay, you mean presentation. The gameplay of echoes is from breath/tears. The presentation and plot format are from the pre open air zeldas.

@firenze6478 Ай бұрын

@@Refreshment01dungeon gameplay is from pre open air. No five console activation hunts

@Refreshment01 Ай бұрын

@@firenze6478 "5 console activation hunts " are called development work arounds when you are pressed for time & resources. Its the same as the ocean was in wind waker, a development shortcut. Dude the game its here, open air zelda mechanics with a more traditional presentation, thats what echoes of wisdom is. If zelda team wants they could start focusing on dungeon design early in development & settle on less ambituos game mechanics for the next game.

@firenze6478 Ай бұрын

@@Refreshment01 I’m referring to how botw/totk dungeons were only hunting five terminals in any order, and how eow brought back the traditional gameplay of progressing in a dungeon in a linear fashion with themed puzzles that progressively get harder as you get towards the end instead of staying the same like the sandbox games. I think you misunderstood what I meant

@omicron3012 Ай бұрын

No, I really don’t agree that not being able to scale a particular mountain or cross an invisible barrier are limits to the gaming experience. The number of hills, moutains, canyons and forests I've scaled or crossed in botw or totk only to be rewarded by a korok seed, worthless monster parts, a bubul frog or even worse, gizmo machine parts that I'm never gonna use, is preposterous. If you make a mountain climbable only to put nothing or the equivalent as the reward for going there, it's not gameplay experience, it’s just more freedom to get bored.

@rockowlgamer631 Ай бұрын

I wouldn't say EoW "fixed" the series at all, it just put another spin on it. Some of the puzzles definitely did stump me but the story was ok at best, using summons could be a hassle AND a blessing with certain ones. I am glad we finally got a game where we got to play as Zelda. I honestly still think A Link Between Worlds is the best combination of open world with close knit dungeons we expected from older Zelda games. Plus, the story was nice and thought provoking.

@vianabdullah2837 Ай бұрын

This just confirms that some people jumped into conclusions when Aonuma was talking about the puzzle solving format of Zelda going forward. Echoes of Wisdom has the lock and key dungeon format that people wanted but is still open world and incorporates the multiplicative and systemic gameplay that he was referring to. This just means they need to go further in terms of experimenting with the map layout and setting. In most Zelda games, the world is laid out like a big rectangle where each region borders the central hub in the middle. They should make it so that only certain regions are connected to each other and it's not just one big blob. Think of Xenoblade where it's open world but you have to progress the story to unlock the entire map.

@joshuajohnson1796 Ай бұрын

Eow is far more Zelda like than botw and totk.. it was so refreshing getting pieces of hearts again and doing side quests and dungeons where you get keys and dungeon map and boss key

@KenDanielMurphy Ай бұрын

I'm not big on boss keys and maps, but I like huge dungeons, themed around new abilities, puzzles to progress in them, etc.

@Refreshment01 Ай бұрын

Non of echoes dungeons are hughe. Presentation its fooling lots of people.

@paczka695 Ай бұрын

The fact that Zelda team is clearly listening to fan feedback means that the next 3D Zelda might be not only ONE of the best games of all time, but actually THE BEST one. Since we will get the best of both worlds + on a MUCH more powerfull hardware...

@AndresRestart Ай бұрын

I think seeing how receptive the Zelda devs are not only in interviews but the actual games is a very good sign!

@seanmclaughlin9283 Ай бұрын

They definitely listened to the fans. But for 3d games, I think they will stay with the current open air formula. the sales numbers will back that up. 2d top down will be more of the classic zelda.

@SecretPaints Ай бұрын

No game is ever going to top ocarina of time or majoras mask it simply just isn’t going to happen ever- even in the same series.

@seanmclaughlin9283 Ай бұрын

@@SecretPaints top it in what aspect? Nostalgia or pure gamplay? The sales numbers would say otherwise.

@SecretPaints Ай бұрын

In every aspect, fun, atmosphere, the feeling of dungeons, the uniqueness of majoras mask etc among many other things. But the fact you used the low iq argument of nostalgia and sales numbers shows you’re an idiot! “You don’t believe any game has beaten ocarina of time it must be nostalgia,”because it can’t possibly be anything else could it? I’m getting sick of idiots like you using nostalgia as a counter argument. And sales don’t = quality by your moronic logic call of duty is the greatest series ever 🤡

@Starriaaa Ай бұрын

I pray they use this formula for the next 3D Zelda on a bigger scale. Like giving deeper move fleshed out storylines in the regions

@painuchiha2694 Ай бұрын

Eow is definitely a huge step up in enemy variety and dungeon The best of both modern Zelda and classic Now if only that gets translated to the 3D open air Zelda. I really love Totk but I don’t want dungeons to be just about activating 5 terminals. I also want mini bosses in dungeons and more enemy variety within the dungeon because soldiers construct got old fast

@AndresRestart Ай бұрын

I do miss dungeons feeling more wide in scope while also having a unique hook. Dungeons like the City in the Sky or Ancient Cistern. I hope we get elaborate experiences like those but with the open air gameplay.

@seanrea550 Ай бұрын

Being able to explore the world freely is one thing, I would say 3 things to have restrictions. Gate keepers in the field, sequential sets of dungeons and dungeon items that open the world and future dungeons more. Have it be a developing story so that the story supports why you can't get into some dungeons yet.

@exactly1176 Ай бұрын

Zelda echoes of wisdom is the perfect mix between classic traditional Zelda games and more modern Zelda games like Breath of the wild. And that's why it's so good ! They finally took the best from both ! 👏

@lethallohn Ай бұрын

I really do appreciate that the Zelda games make an extreme effort to innovate each time. Every experience has always felt new to me, even if the game looks the same or is using the same world. There's pros and cons to this as things we liked from past Zelda games are just not there anymore or not as much. Echoes of Wisdom really spoke to me that the next mainline 3d Zelda game could have an awesome combination of both Linearity and Open World along with Tradition Zelda Aspects. Echoes of Wisdom had items you obtain for links form during dungeons, similar to obtaining an item in past Zelda games to complete a dungeon, but not exactly the same. I really enjoyed the music and the dungeons. Puzzles aren't satisfying though when it feels like you're cheesing it with an echo. I know that it's intentional but I think it wasn't executed well enough. However, they still did a decent job with it. The side quests and minigames were fun/good time passers. This game was great to me despite it's issues.

@SuperSavajin Ай бұрын

Basically they went back to what actually made Zelda good. It's funny to me that we have to walk backwards to reach what already was a great formula

@BeanieKing Ай бұрын

Because if they stayed with that formula, you'd be singing a different tune, "Why do they keep releasing the same game, over and over?!" Basically, Zelda devs figured out what Ubisoft never did - that it doesnt hurt to shake things up every now and again.

@firenze6478 Ай бұрын

@@BeanieKingbelieve or not, some fans like a games a certain way, and zelda has been extremely popular for 26 years by innovating the SAME formula before botw threw it out completely and changed genre. Zelda was not on it’s last leg, ss was just an overhated dud that actually diverted more from the zelda formula than any pre botw game with over linearity, heavy handed story telling, crafting, stamina wheel, motion controls and many things that botw adopted.

@BeanieKing Ай бұрын

@@firenze6478 Every franchise is going to have its Puritan die hards, we all know that. What you can't dispute are the sales figures because, as was pointed out in the video, this was the first time the Zelda franchise outsold Mario. So, I agree with you, some people are going to be upset with changes to the status quo, but they were far outweighed by those who liked the changes. Evolution wound up being a good move for Zelda.

@firenze6478 Ай бұрын

@@BeanieKing how do sales influence opinions. Zelda straight up swapped to a popular over saturated genre that drew in a ton of normies as well as the fans expected the next amazing entry. Totk had people buying it, believing it might fix botw’s flaws, along with the sandbox fans, but didn’t sale near as much as botw due to others being burned.

@BeanieKing Ай бұрын

@@firenze6478 I'm not saying you don't know what you're talking about, but I don't know what you're talking about. The numbers alone disprove your assertions that BotW was trash and no one liked it, because if that was true, it would've gone the way of Concord instead of skyrocketing to the Top 5 Most Sold on a system that's in the Top 5 Most Sold of all time. Can't dispute the figures, my man.

@thelastwindwaker7948 Ай бұрын

7:09 What is he talking about? That's the kind of thing that made people say BOTW is a good game, but not a good Zelda game. Despite what every youtuber with ADHD might tell you, the average player isn't tortured by things like having an intended way of doing things, or the chest opening animation or a door closing behind you in a half second cutscene.

@meow-is-edible Ай бұрын

contrary to popular belief i have diagnosed adhd and i actually think traditional “zelda game” is much better for our adhd brains😂 botw and totk simply has nothing interested enough in the empty world that it’s hard to keep my attention. collecting koroks and dispensable items are a chore without big rewards that our adhd brains tend to dislike. compared to that traditional zelda games used to give big reward even for side quests, such as agetha bugs in twilight princess, which becomes even better with randomizer. i kinda like openness when done right like in EoW, but don’t know how to feel since you could achieve the same thing using glitches in traditional zelda, and glitches always feels much more rewarding than spawning a spider to skip entire sections.

@thelastwindwaker7948 Ай бұрын

@@meow-is-edible Interesting. I don't have ADHD myself, but I've heard time and again from youtubers with it that sandbox games are better because they let you just wander off and do what you feel like. That a game trying to tell a story is getting in the way of your ability to _immerse_ yourself in a world. The rewards themselves tend to be something people don't care about. It's more the fact that you went off on your own and had a discovery, and the game didn't hold your hand while doing it.

@Truthbomb101. Ай бұрын

Echoes feels like a Zelda game compared to Botw/Totk. The gameplay you showed of Breath/Tears in the first 2 minutes of this video proves exactly what I'm saying...they just went too far away from the essence of Zelda games and what the devs replaced that with was a significant downgrade to the magic that came before it. Although not the best 2D Zelda with prior 2D Zeldas still doing things a bit better, Echoes is still a great Zelda game and one that actually can be compared to games like Link to the Past and Minish Cap and hold it's own. Not saying Breath or Tears are bad, but we play Zelda games because they are Zelda games. They bring that feeling to the player. That's why people who have Breath or Tears as their top Zelda games, I cant understand it...maybe it's just the people who have never played Zelda before that say that, but either way, this is the new Zelda experience we were waiting for since 2012.

@Refreshment01 Ай бұрын

Nah, you are fooled by presentation. Just look at the examples, that many that think like you, are bringing: pieces of hearts, maps, etc. The core of zelda games is discovery & exploration, those remained as potent in open air zeldas as the more "traditional" ones.

@Truthbomb101. Ай бұрын

@Refreshment01 Don't pidgeon hole me with others without any evidence my dude. Pieces of hearts and maps has nothing to do with anything. Infact, the pieces of hearts are so easy to acquire without much at all thought in echoes, whereas past games they were more difficult to acquire and with enganging puzzles, not just "move this rock with ultrahand and collect the heart". Pieces of heart are done much better in prior games, but even so, if you don't get what I'm saying by "the Zelda feeling" go play some of the older games again and refresh your memory, I think collecting 900 koroks in Breath and 1000 in Tears has fried your brain a little.

@Refreshment01 Ай бұрын

@@Truthbomb101. You piggeon holed yourself by claiming developers moved away from the series essence. Just clearly told you exploration & discovery are the essence of the series since the original. That remains as strong in the open air zeldas. What you talk about are some aspects that you personally dont like & by no means im trying to change your tastes. After all there are some aspects that change focus as the series moved forward so some players have different reactions ✌

@نونيم-ي4ح Ай бұрын

Eh not really, the dungeons were quite lackluster and if anything it proves why both genres can’t coexist, you can’t mix open ended game design with linear game design, it’s very hard to do and eow while does address some of the problems it shows why they went with the directions they did in TOTK.

@pubertdefrog Ай бұрын

Dungeon items still should return, the issue with that however is the fact that past dungeons required the use of other items that a player might not get acquire yet in an open world setting. They could fix this by: 1) making it so that the dungeon revolves around the item you get from it, sort of like a “trial of the hookshot” or “trial of the boomerang” Or: 2) they could block off dungeons by requiring an item from a previous dungeon that is also used to solve puzzles in this new dungeon, Ala rock walls you need to bomb or eye switches you need to shoot with a bow, etc.

@pubertdefrog Ай бұрын

Option 1 is more freedom oriented for sure, but option 2 is more limiting, but allows for more puzzle variety in said dungeons. I’d personally go with option 2, but I’d be fine with option 1 if it was unique and not just (USE GUST JAR HERE!!) kind of “puzzles”

@VGamingJunkieVT Ай бұрын

Open world Zelda with linear dungeons seems like the fairest way to go about it for 3D Zelda. The shrines already have a somewhat linear factor in that you can't really just climb any wall you want, just apply that on a broader scale with dungeons. Have maps, compasses, mini-bosses, and boss keys.

@No-One-Important-Here Ай бұрын

The player always have the choice to NOT ascend and “jump” to the end of the dungeon. Travel points within Echoes’ dungeons are essentially the same as “ascend” or any other fast traveling abilities. Not sure if players really need Nintendo to handhold us that much… it’s like Pokémon Nuzlock players… we always have the freedom to use or not use any given abilities or items if we feel they make the game too easy, not fun or boring. Having the options is what’s great about BOTW and TOTK. 😊😅

@Refreshment01 Ай бұрын

What pisses me off its that the majority of people with that complain didnt figure that out by their own. A dmall fraction of players have that ability, most play like it was intended by developers. It reminds me of "hoverbike trivialize game" complains. It took 1000s of hours & players knowledge sharing to achieve that, that a person with no selfcontrol began watching videos before completing the game at least once its not the games fault. Theres no design method or philosophy that can overcome human stupidity.

@Truthbomb101. Ай бұрын

@AndresRestart if you can see a mountain that you cant climb you'd be upset? The Totk map while huge also eventually ends...and all you can see is mountains in the distance. You say you want to scale a mountain to find what? A korok seed at the top? I understand what you're saying but if you want fully open world Zelda then you're gonna be scaling mountains for no real purpose. It's impossible in open world games to make something unique atop every mountain or around every corner. In a game that's more limited, you can acheive that. Thats why prior 3D Zeldas were better than Botw/Totk. I'm all for a big map with open areas, but there needs to be some boundaries or else you get a game that doesnt tell the story well and has to copy and paste 50% of their ideas. If Botw map was half the size of what it was it wouldnt make any difference. It would actually be better and not have so much open land with alot of nothingness to it. The next Zelda should maybe be half the size of Botw map, which is still way bigger than prior Zelda maps other than Breath and Tears. That way the openness stays while the devs can focus more at the same time and do what they do best, add unique Zelda magic into every corner of the game. Because that's why we play Zelda games.

@Gamer1288 Ай бұрын

I wish that we got Echoes of LA Enemies to use too via Amiibo Drops.

@Johnny-Games15 Ай бұрын

Yeah, I agree there are still tweeks that need to be made, but I believe Echoes of Wisdom was a step in the right direction for finding the balance between the two styles. BTW, still haven't finished my Echoes of Wisdom Playthrough but I'm really loving it.

@christiancividino455 Ай бұрын

Echoes was so much more fun than TOTK. Already on my second playthrough I love it that much. Enemy diversity, triforce returns, longer dungeons, story experienced in real time, fun creative freedom that blends seamlessly and works in the narrative. It’s my favorite Zelda since BOTW.

@spence6195 Ай бұрын

TOTK is the best LOZ game imo. It was a more fleshed out version of BOTW. EChoes of Wisdom is great but not better than Tears of the Kingdom

@Talon968 Ай бұрын

I for one don’t think that the Sages realized that Link would be able to see their message to their descendants. I believe that they had thought that only their chosen successor would ever see their message.

@RNL-vy7uf Ай бұрын

Echoes of Wisdom does have a classic Zelda formula and it did bring back old and older characters from previous games like Ocarina of time and Four swords and to me when Nintendo announces the 40th anniversary of Zelda they should have a Zelda game collection.

@tralijntje1540 Ай бұрын

to be honest i love both eow and totk for each of their own gameplay .

@boomini5606 Ай бұрын

@AndresRestart I hear Eternal Forest music in this video!!! Yay! It's soo nice 😊

@RustyhairedAlp9575 Ай бұрын

Has the Zelda team fixed the Lost Woods Sign Wrongwarp yet?

@sidewinder2057 Ай бұрын

Echoes of wisdom really surprised me. It's the best top down Zelda imho. Took everything that's great about TotK and mixed up with the best aspects of 2D Zeldas. Beautiful cocktail

@sidewinder2057 Ай бұрын

@Garrus-w2h That's nostalgia talking. I've completed link to the past and it's 3ds remake very recently. They are not on the level of this new game

@sidewinder2057 Ай бұрын

@Garrus-w2h After this one it would be frustrating to come back to classic design where you can't even get past some boulder without searching for an item hell knows for how long.

@Goosewitdajuice317 10 сағат бұрын

@@sidewinder2057 i do not have nostalgia for a lttp at all. Actually. Beat it for the first time this last summer. Its better than echoes in EVERY way.

@chainclaw07 Ай бұрын

OoT, MM, botw and totk are the massive strides in zelda design and scope. Zelda 3 was a monumental showing of what home console gaming could be for its time. imo every other game has just been deriving value off those titles. saying that skyward sword "blazed the trails" of showing a story doesn't apply when games like mass effect had run their whole trilogy before it. the last of us etc.

@Refreshment01 Ай бұрын

People that are into zelda seires mainly due to plot are missing the point. You can get better stories in other games or mediums like movies. The strong duits of the series its gameplay mechanics, exploration & discovery.