Cheap CNC Router Bits on Amazon: A Risk You Shouldn't Take?

These are the cheapest CNC router bits on Amazon. Are they any good? Are they worth buying? The results will shock you!
Here are the bits I tested:
Test 1 - amzn.to/45dgcDJ
Test 2 - amzn.to/3BHSUIA
Test 3 - amzn.to/3IKI9cP (SOLD OUT)
🎥 What to Watch Next: The Cheapest CNC Router On Amazon - • The Cheapest CNC Route...
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[@ernest-pj2du]

The real explanation is that when the cutter gets hot it takes away the hardness of the cutter the metal therefore becomes softer. Great video.

[@georgemoseley1207]

I believe that your speeds should change for the 3 flute vs 2 flute bits to keep the chip load correct. That might have caused some of the heat buildup in the first bit because it was spinning too fast.

[@matthewcleveland577]

That was my first thought, 3 flutes are meant to run at a higher ipm or lower rpm. He does address that though, and it really shouldn't make that much difference in that short of time

[@ineedtwo5360]

We have bought almost all the brands on Amazon, the $40 $35 $24 $18, the best one we have been able to find after 4 years, it is a Chinese brand we had to buy to change from 1/4" to 6mm. We cut 25 sheets of plywood without changing bits , with the same cut. With the amana it reaches 5 sheets and loses the edge, there are some blue ones, it does not exceed 8 sheets. But the 6mm one, and it only costs $12! It cuts 25 to 30 sheets of POPLAR plywood!!! .

[@joeking433]

Link?

[@cliffgeter1105]

Thanks, Andy. I'm just starting my CNC journey. This points me to a source for inexpensive bits I can bang on and get good results. Keep the content coming.

[@jay-in-az]

I have used the HQMaster for a couple of years with excellent results. Always considered them throw away bits but surprised with how long they last

[@AndyBirdBuilds]

Awesome! Thanks for sharing your experience

[@russelllynch7606]

I have used HQMaster for the past year with no issues.

[@shannonrollins2495]

The lines you are seeing on the blue compression bit are called the "primary relief" and "secondary relief" angles. The primary relief is the relief angle allowing the tool to cut without rubbing, but remaining as shallow of an angle as possible to retain strength. The secondary relief is a much steeper angle which removes a lot more material on the heel or backside of the grind since it is generally a much steeper relief angle to gain as much chip clearance as possible. The grinding on this tool is a lot more sophisticated and requires a CNC tool and cutter grinder to accomplish. The other two bits may be batched out on a cnc grinder or they could be run on manual equipment since the geometry isn't nearly as complicated. The coating may not be necessary for use on wood, however it can (depending on the coating type) greatly increase lubricity and reduce friction between the tool and the work piece. This will certainly increase the life of the tool. It would not surprise me to find that the area you thought may have been coating flaking off was actually plywood glue residue building up on the coating and it had the appearance of the coating flaking. Since it was at the depth of your cut, it was likely from re-cutting some of the chips as they exit the cut area and the chips include the plywood glue.

[@scorpianspirit5124]

Well you defiantly got me to subscribe ! I'm a newbie in the cnc arena and I was a little afraid that watching this video was going to tell me that I have to buy high dollar bits or walk away, but this was a pleasant surprise for sure. I know I'm going to crash the machine and break bits, but at those kind of prices I can still eat and sleep well without worry of breaking the bank in a new hobby. Great video ! I'm on board with you and will check out your other videos and look forward to more content. BTW, I'm 61 and hoping older dogs can learn new tricks...lol... Cheers and all the best from Utah !

[@chrisf8584]

On the blue bit, that first slow pass wore off the coating from heat and friction of cutting through the powder. If you try it again at 200ipm with a new bit, you should see the coating last longer. But who cuts wood, ply, mdf whatever at 60ipm?

[@micheljimenez2318]

Ahora cuestan 15 dólares aproximadamente, parece que con tu vídeo aumentó la demanda y el precio subió 😮

[@gaiustacitus4242]

For anyone who does not know how to determine if a cutting tool is made of carbide or high speed steel: 1. Carbide weighs about 80% more than the same volume of high speed steel. 2. Carbide is a duller grey color, whereas high speed steel is shiny. 3. Carbide, like "non-magnetic" stainless steels, is only slightly magnetic and will produce only a sight attraction, whereas high speed steel is strongly magnetic (an easy and cheap test). 4. High speed steel throws off a lot of bright yellow sparks when held against a grinding wheel, whereas carbide produces relatively few small sparks that are more of an orange hue. 5. An aluminum oxide stone will easily scratch the shank of a high speed still end mill or drill but will barely mark carbide. 6. Carbide is around 90 on the Rockwell C hardness scale, whereas high speed steel is about 65 on this scale (though few people have access to a hardness tester since a decent one costs $1600 to $1800). If a tool is cheap and does the job, then it doesn't matter what it is made of. Still, buyers of cutting tools should know how to tell the difference to avoid overpaying, as some of the high speed steel end mills / router bits (and other cutting tools) on Amazon claim to be made of, and priced as if they are, carbide. Caveat emptor.

[@JAYTEEAU]

Great tips, thank you

[@thrauil]

AD.2. not if bot are polished/ decent quality 7. Carbide tools will not have any centre holes or threads on the shank end. If they do, those holes are through tool coolant, and you don't want that for woodworking.

[@thrauil]

1st, one would always break (no matter the price) whenever it was used for extended period of time since it is a (99% sure) HSS endmill designed for metal cutting here is why: - flutes are not as steep compared to woodworking endmills - That hole in back of that tool - "sharpness" of the tool. Even used or chipped carbide will feel sharper, it's harder than HSS - Tool marks. Most of the cheese grade HSS is just cut instead of ground. If you get your hand on a quality HSS tool, you will see a massive difference under microscope. Also, carbide is ALWAYS ground. - Discolouration of flutes. Carbide doesn't do it. At least not in woodworking. You will start fire before you discolour it. Change of appearance is due to material caking on it and/or tool chipping. Also, as you may notice, the whole tool is straw colour, which is produced when tool steel is tempered. The thing with HSS is it doesn't work well with high RPM - it gets hot, and you are essentially tempering steel, which leads to blunting and breaking. In metal working it is not a problem - turn on your coolant and that's it (of course within reason). In wood working well, 12k-18k RPM is a death sentence for those tools. 2nd and 3rd tools are actually carbide. How do I know? Tungsten carbide is a very poor heat conductor, and you state that "it's not even hot". I bet they also feel heavy in relation to their size. 2nd tool have good flute geometry for wood and non-ferrous metals. Only thing that is missing on that tool are polished surfaces (prevents chips sticking to it). I wasn't surprised that both of them didn't break. And I don't agree with your conclusion. Cheap carbide tools are good for general use - somehow manufacturers can't figure out how to make completely shitty carbide. Yea, if you are machining 714 Inconel or duplex, or you are using high feed endmill - quality will matter a lot. My advice for wood working would be: avoid HSS, get a tool with appropriate flute geometry, get high polish endmill (often found on tooling for aluminium) and lastly avoid coatings on cheap tools. Apply those advices in that order.

[@ClintonCaraway-CNC]

What chip load are you shooting for? Running a bit slow (90ipm) can cause more damage than running it to fast if your RPMs are set incorrectly. "The only difference is this bit is two flute and this one is three flute." That makes a HUGE difference. If you ran both at the same rpms and feed rate then it is not a "side by side" test. Of course the three flute got hot. There was no chips to remove the heat...only dust which just compounds the problem.

[@AndyBirdBuilds]

You make a good point, but chip load isn't heavily considered in cnc woodworking. Wood in general is very forgiving. So the difference here is minimal. In fact, most cnc machines that viewers are using can't maintain a certain chip load, so it does no good to use it as a reference. I think the material make up of the bit should be more of a consideration.

[@laroast8531]

Chip load is absolutely considered in cnc woodworking. Feeds and speeds are only a means of achieving the right chip load. I'd argue it might be more important than machining metal because we don't run coolant cutting wood. The chip load is the only thing keeping the bit from burning up. It's "forgiving" in the sense you can run it slow and cut the life of the tool down but still make the piece. Run it too slow and you can cut the life of the tool down to zero real quick, or start a fire in your shop!

[@AndyBirdBuilds]

@@laroast8531 I completely get what you are talking about and it's vital in a production setting. BUT, the majority of my audience isn't producing 1000's of pieces a week or even in a year, thus chip load is not a major concern. The monetary return isn't quantifiable at such low quantities. Also, the machines and software cannot maintain a specific chip load, meaning adjusting speeds and feeds in real time based on the toolpath. So there's not really any point in using chip load in this scenario. As long as you're making "chips" and not "dust" you are good.

[@carlslater7492]

@@AndyBirdBuilds Chip load is NOT considered? What I think you are saying is that these machines are now "consumerized" to the point that people who don't know and don't want to know anything about their operation can buy one. These are the same folks who drop 5K on a setup and wonder why they get terrible results. Education saves money! If you are over 60 and in the USA most colleges let you take classes for FREE. I am in one now. By the way I am a retired Mechanical Engineer who was doing design and analysis ... now I am learning how to actually make things. Oh and please don't let somebody make a "Dr Kit" for 5K .. and then have a real Dr. do a procedure for others to copy.

[@AndyBirdBuilds]

@@carlslater7492 Whats the return on calculating exact chip loads in wood?

[@JAYTEEAU]

Thanks Andy, I think the answer to my "When should I start buying expensive bits" in our CNC course live chat might not even be a thing now 😂 Cheers, JAYTEE

[@StevePotter]

7:44 You may want to add corrections about up cut vs. down cut -- I believe this is an up cut bit (unless your microscope image is reversed).

[@StevePotter]

16:12 The tip of any compression bit is up-cut and the flutes above that are down-cut, so the chips would tend to get pulled up from the bottom surface and pushed down from the top surface of the material. If you hold one in your hand tip down and rotate it clockwise (as seen from above, the way the motor spins) you can see the flutes moving toward the transition zone.

[@AndyBirdBuilds]

Good catch. I misspoke here. The bottom tip is the upcut portion. Hence, leaving a clean bottom surface when cutting through the profile of your material. This doesn't take anything away for our test though.

[@StevePotter]

@@AndyBirdBuilds Yes, great tests and analysis! Very helpful.

[@forestbirdoriginals4917]

How do we know the discoloration is heat and not pitch esin from the wood?

[@manuelwide6791]

for melamine particle board, what is the best ??

[@felderup]

i suppose that running air through the bit would prevent heat damage, might be easier in a milling head instead of a spindle.

[@josipsarkanj9065]

When I watch similar videos..and notice that everyone tightens the bit wrongly. Why do you think that wrench has angles?

[@Jeppedy]

Can you use a 6mm shank bit in a 1/4" collet if they dont offer 6.35mm?

[@Realism91]

They start at $18 on Amazon Canada I'm glad you did this it gives me confidence in the coated ones

[@larrywsayre]

Great video. Even if I don’t have a CNC (yet-😁)… You’re fun to watch!

[@AndyBirdBuilds]

Thank you! 👊

[@RockhollowCNCServices]

What is the spec on that spindle?

[@brianwade8481]

Great test with impressive results. I will definitely use some of these cheaper bits in my workflow. Thanks for doing a great job at presenting the results.

[@AndyBirdBuilds]

Very welcome!

[@ElCidPhysics90]

Question: The discoloration appears to at the bottom portion of the bit, however, the bit broke near the top. Is the break really due to heat?

[@AndyBirdBuilds]

Good question. I'm not a physics expert, but my guess is that it got hot enough, and the heat transfered up the bit, and thats where it has the most "flex" stress on it.

[@ifiwooddesigns]

Great video as always. Ranks up there with the cheap CNC and laser machines. Your expression after the cherry wood cut was priceless. I’m still not a CNC user, but found this video both interesting and useful. Thanks and keep up the great work.

[@AndyBirdBuilds]

Great to hear you enjoyed it! Thanks for watching 🙏

[@cyberlizardcouk]

i purchased some cheap bits made by Sainsmart / Genmitsu. They were really sharp and actually cut the skin on my finger and drew blood.

[@laroast8531]

Very interesting. Spent 6 years working as a machinist before getting my Avid. Working out tool paths with solid wood is actually much more difficult than metal, as the density and grain direction change so much even in the same board. As someone who has a really hard time not using the best tools they can afford, this video has gone a long way in convincing me to use a throw away bit when prototyping a new project. I'd love to see more of this. You may want to think about a small plexi shield though if your trying to break bits! They may not all break as cleanly as that one did.

[@PiercesPerfectPieces]

Agreed! Wood is a finicky beast of its own. I came from working in a shop where I machined a lot of 6061, 1100, 3003 5052 Aluminum, 303, 304, 316, 321 HT 17-4 Stainless, Brass, Bronze, Delrin, etc etc etc for years too, & I can honestly say with the movement, grains & softness/hardness of wood it is more of a "pain" to machine. It’s definitely been an eye opener.

[@tec4ever72]

Loved this video. It helped a lot to approach bit selection! Thanks!

[@cnccarving]

i always buying the """cheap""" bits however i never met with the first bit with 1/8 shank using one flutebits flutes are polished , no eat build up and fairly long lifespan 1-8 bits around 1.50-3 dollar 1/4 bits around 3.50-6 dollar in comparison purchased amana and onsrud bits because """professionals""" told me they hold up longer no, they are not, even using the factory suggested settings on the end posted pictures on amazon and alibaba showing the actual bits, so fairly simple to buy the right one

[@shughes599]

I would be curious about runout tolerances on the bits. Also curious about longer life testing. Does your spindle raise and lower rpm with feed rate to maintain chip load?

[@AndyBirdBuilds]

Thats an interesting thought 🤔

[@warrenking970]

Good video, it put the " cheap junk" mith to bed ( not for all bits) but will cause people to examine the bits.

[@joshuabray37]

Great video, and great advice.

[@AndyBirdBuilds]

Thanks for watching!

[@timcase1590]

Thanks for your videos Andy, I have had a 15x15 workbe in my garage since may of 21, I only have the z axis and part of y done. The manual sucks, and have no idea even if I get to the electrical on how bad that will be. Customer service sucks, bulman3d, they haven't contacted me back whatsoever. Should have went with carbide3d.. customer service from everything I saw is awsome.. I will try to finish it, need to, no choice. Any suggestions on forums or something for me to get help on it? Sry so long

[@resorter66]

andy what cnc are you using in this video

[@AndyBirdBuilds]

Avid Pro4848

[@homezero]

Suggested test for consideration. How many inexpensive bits would be used to match the longevity of a more expensive bit? Which would be most cost effective?

[@AndyBirdBuilds]

That would be interesting. Like I said in the video, I believe both cheap bits and more expensive bits have their place in everyone's work flow.

[@homezero]

@@AndyBirdBuilds My point I Have interest in knowing is, If I have to use 3 $6 bits to one $30 bit to do the same amount of work with the same quality, cheap bits win, yes? Where do more expensive bits give more benefit to workflow?

[@AndyBirdBuilds]

@@homezero Wear being the main point of this video, there are other considerations as well. How sharp is a bit to begin with? Do the bits produce the same quality of cut? If so, for how long? What material are cutting will have an affect on how fast a bit wears as well. My point is, I don't think there is a one size fits all answer to your question. If you run a test, let me know what you find out.

[@joeking433]

You have to factor in the chance of breaking the bit, too. One commenter said he buys Chinese bits that last longer than Amana.

[@wmcrash]

I think the first bit is actually HSS, not carbide. Amazon description isn't always right.

[@AndyBirdBuilds]

Interesting. What gives it away?

[@wmcrash]

@@AndyBirdBuilds First off, I've only ever seen the hole in the back on HSS end mills. It is useful for the tailstock when milling/turning the steel from stock, but it's not useful when grinding carbide from round blanks. Second, the binder that is used to fuse carbide powder is a small percent of the final material, and only part of it is iron. That iron would be nowhere near enough to give you those strong discoloration bands in carbide. In the interest of research, take a propane torch and apply flame to a known carbide piece, see if you get any heat bands to show. Also just for kicks, take a small magnet and test for magnetism. Carbide is less magnetic than steel. And third, in the Amazon description, towards the top, the material is stated as HSSAL, which I interpret as high speed steel for aluminum. Also, carbide has higher density than steel. If you have a graduated cylinder to measure volume, and a small scale for mass, you can get the density quite accurately. Take all with a grain of salt, I'm a weekend warrior machinist.

[@AndyBirdBuilds]

Thank you for sharing your experience! I will do some more investigating

[@C-M-E]

Having done a fair share of material development, testing and failure analysis, the heat affected zone in the first bit is from torsional stress by the top portion spinning faster without resistance versus the cutting section spinning slower With resistance. Any bit can suffer from this where it's partially from metallurgy, but mostly simple physics. Many a wood screw has suffered the same fate in my presence, as well as general fasteners. By engineering a better design out of applicable stock (some will naturally perform better than others by virtue of being tougher/more resilient steel or alloys), you can get a 'cheap' bit to do expensive bit performance. The expense involved is finding someone(s) who know that and how to accomplish it, and fabricators that reproduce them.

[@CircaSG]

I run Chinese 1/8” bits up to 120 ipm with 1/4” depths on 1/4” ply. I think the 3 flute bit could have run much faster and lasted much longer. Running that bit really slow definitely killed that bit super fast.

[@velocityacoustics]

Is there any risk of damage to the machine when the bits break?

[@AndyBirdBuilds]

No

[@velocityacoustics]

Ok, just asking because in the title it says "a risk you souldnt take?" I thought that meant damage to the machine. But if the bits are cheap, wheres the risk part? Not quite understanding...

[@FPSG]

I dont know what cutter coating would be blue like that, seems like a nonsense coating to me.

[@thrauil]

AlTiN most likely - looks somewhat purpleish. Coatings are not nonsense if they are good quality. If they are not, they function as glorified paint.

[@ljgault]

First thing they did was went up in price on the cheapest bit..I guess they seen your video. I use nothing but Jenny bits.

[@AndyBirdBuilds]

I like Jenny's bits, too. I have no control over the Amazon sellers, but there are plenty of places to get less expensive bits

[@ryanhathy]

You should test the first bit on a grinder and see if it's really carbide, or maybe they lied and it's just HSS.

[@AndyBirdBuilds]

That's a good idea! Thanks

[@josipsarkanj9065]

The bit is always tightened with one hand..that's why it has a wrench angle

[@NurialMatrix]

What is funny is as soon as I added the Test 3 bit to my cart, the price jumped to $8.

[@AndyBirdBuilds]

Wow. Yeah, I have no control over the Amazon seller. The good thing is there are plenty of places to get cheap bits

[@Shorrey]

I am frankly impressed.

[@JuulCPH]

I don't think you can assume that part of the shipping charges don't go to the seller. I think that depends on which shipping method is used. I'd double check that because there's a chance your cheapest bit was your most expensive bit.

[@AndyBirdBuilds]

I think it's a safe assumption. It was shipped first class usps from New York.

[@Djtylerwallace]

Hqmaster makes some amazing bits for the price.

[@ronmisiura9169]

Great video.

[@AndyBirdBuilds]

Thanks for watching Ron!

[@MrRenoman2011]

Great Video thanka

[@AndyBirdBuilds]

Glad you enjoyed it

[@RobertMiddaugh-pp3ry]

Great content thanks.

[@karlriley1314]

That router bit is now $12.

[@Basement_CNC]

and now 18$😢

[@ericw9655]

Up to $15.51 as of now

[@shaunparsons9610]

I've heard that your not supposed to go any deeper then half the thickness of the bit. That first one would have been 4 times too deep.

[@AndyBirdBuilds]

There's a lot of theories about this. That's definitely not a hard fast rule in every scenario. If you can get the same results and do it faster, why wouldn't you? Time is money.

[@southwindswoodworks8260]

Great video! Test #3 bit back in stock... AT $17.50 EACH ?! EEAAKK! :P

[@joeking433]

Yeah, those Chinese sellers always take advantage of that kind of opportunity where their product does really well in a youtube video! Happens all the time that the item will triple in price because of an admiring YT video.

[@Basement_CNC]

i've had mixed experience with amazon bits from trash to treasure there is everything on Amazon

[@TheCNCDen]

Genuinely surprised.

[@AndyBirdBuilds]

Me too!

[@LG-ro5le]

I prefer buying branded bits as they usually come with the setup information needed to run the bit properly, some thinner bits need the correct settings or they will snap, sometimes a specific ramp is needed

[@jeffverdin6105]

I disagree. Manufacturers only offer up the lower settings due to the older cnc machines out there still. The speeds and feeds usually given are generic and low numbers

[@LG-ro5le]

@@jeffverdin6105 maybe, but they get the job done & its better than entering the wrong setup because the manufacturer cant provide it and snapping bits especially the thinner end mills. My point is that thinner end mills or O flutes need a specific setup including ramp to avoid snapping. If you buy a cheap bit more than likely the manufacturer wont provide this information

[@johnterdik4707]

How do I subscribe? There's no subscribe button, I do see a join button but this cost money.

[@PrestigeChiro]

dont know why, as i write this is 11/25/24 and the last coated bit is $20 and not $1

[@joeking433]

You can’t say the $1.20 bit is the cheapest on Amazon if it has $4 in shipping. It’s basically a $5.20 bit with free shipping. If you take the ten bits you bought for $14 and subtract the $4 shipping you have each bit only costing $1 each.

[@gaiustacitus4242]

The "cheapest 1/4-inch bit" (#3) is now listed at prices ranging from $11.97 ea. to $31.86 on Amazon and all of the vendors checked have it in stock. This bit isn't carbide, though that claim appears in the heading. The product details make clear that it is made of "Durable Tungsten Steel Material." It's also 6mm and not 1/4". There are several vendors selling the same manufacturer's bits, and not one bit is made of carbide; all are tungsten steel. If I had to guess, I'd wager someone sent you the link to bit #3 and provided you a special price to get a positive review with the expectation that others would buy the same bit from vendors selling it at higher prices. Given how I've seen people manipulate prices on items by posting the same item under multiple accounts to make their overpriced goods appear to be "competitively priced," I wouldn't rule that practice out either. For anyone unaware, tungsten steel is a completely different alloy than tungsten carbide. Like consumers, some vendors may not know the difference. However, some vendors (who sometimes fronts for the manufacturers) are fully aware of the difference and use false or misleading claims to sell tungsten steel cutting tools as "carbide" (which it is not). The following article provides an overview of the differences between Tungsten Steel and Tungsten Carbide: www.thomasnet.com/articles/metals-metal-products/tungsten-vs-tungsten-carbide/

[@AndyBirdBuilds]

Regardless of what it is made of (we will truly never know), it outperformed for what I paid for it. The whole betting they sent me a link for a positive review comment is a waste of everyone's time. What's the point of even stating that?

[@gaiustacitus4242]

@@AndyBirdBuilds Someone did send you a link, did they not? And that link was to a router bit that was priced at less than 10% of the price this router bit typically sells for. You've been drawn into promoting a bait and switch scheme.

[@AndyBirdBuilds]

@@gaiustacitus4242 😂No there is no promotion here. I looked for the cheapest on Amazon and this is what I found.

[@TheGalacticWest]

Amazingly whether it be inflation or the manufacture felt they could profit from this videos info. The 3rd bit is now 15 times the price.

[@cnccarving]

for wood the 3 flute bit will not work theres no room for chip evacuation any brand of 3 flutes will perform poorly in wood

[@chadcooper3602]

bit number 3 is now $17.50 - 7/26/2023

[@Jeppedy]

$21 in Jan, 2025!!

[@WmYoung-g7z]

couldn't find anything close to that price.?

[@yaroslavstepaniuk5234]

Cool, but 1st bit - is 100% HSS

[@AndyBirdBuilds]

Very interesting! How can you tell?

[@thrauil]

@@AndyBirdBuilds Centre hole on shank, colour change to straw, flute geometry, tool marks and lack of sharpness

[@philipbellinghieri4106]

It's now $20.71 on Amazon.

[@RC-jf6rj]

heh...as of Nov 9, 2023 those bits are right at $15 ea

[@JSGenesisDesigns]

Thanks for doing the work so we don't have to!

[@AndyBirdBuilds]

You're welcome! Hopefully you found it helpful

[@JSGenesisDesigns]

@@AndyBirdBuilds those bits outlasted their sister bits that came with the xcarve

[@cristianpaulmartinez52]

:( the $1.20 1/4" bit is now $20

[@tjkendall48176]

$15 now

[@jaycaviness1216]

Looks like the seller of your third bit knew he would be getting sales, ha! The price is already above $7/bit.

[@AndyBirdBuilds]

I just checked and they have bits at different price points. The $1.20 was still available

[@dunebug2222]

@@AndyBirdBuilds This link went to 4*4*17*50 at $7.60 for me. The 6*6*22*55 I found several sold out most likely the cheap ones and others at $11.97 to$16.79.

[@wiedzmin27]

The first bit is not carbide. 100%

[@EliSpizzichino]

now they cost 10x more....