Second Thessalonians 010 - The Departure First (Pt. 4). 2 Thess. 2:3a. Dr. Andy Woods. 9-24-23.

[@helenem4586]

I'm persuaded by the flawless logic you employed, Andy, a logic which satisfies both scriptural and academic principles. Not that one needed such proof for the contention for the pretribulational departure of the church. However, such proof becomes obvious and unassailable to the mind of anyone having an appreciation of both context and logic.

[@vdoniel]

Well said.

[@chriskaramitros5421]

I would agree and I would encourage all of you to listen to his entire rapture sermon series that he's done in the past. He covers all the rapture scriptures and also refutes the mid trib, post trib and pre wrath positions. He also does a great job dealing with Daniel and Matthew chapter 24. Also his Revelation series is awesome!

[@vdoniel]

@@chriskaramitros5421 I have listened to all the series you mentioned and agree with your opinion.

[@vdoniel]

@jeremyjones8523 Yes absolutely

[@LessThanZero-j6e]

Agreed. Every message is a Bible lesson and a hermeneutical lesson at the same time.

[@amygiza3195]

I love this and every teaching from Dr. Andy Woods!! He sure makes an awesome argument for his view!!

[@SG-es3cy]

Thank you, Pastor Woods, for this clear, detailed explanation! The “Falling Away” pamphlet you wrote outlining these reasons is an excellent resource that I’m currently reading. Praying for you, your family and those at SLBC. ✝️🙏🏾🇨🇦

[@gotteskinder3746]

Solid, logical and scriptural based arguing about the apostasia controversy .

[@habanagirl9002]

God bless you dear pastor Andy and all today. Happy Sukkot 🇮🇱⛺️🙏❤️‍🔥✝️🙏. Soon and very soon, we are going to see our King, HalleluYaH, Jesus Christ is our blessed hope. Pre tribulation ready! The Harpazo is imminent ❤

[@1Corinthians15v1to4]

Thank you for your well-reasoned sermon.

[@rongoodman2844]

Even if one comes to a different conclusion after examining the evidence presented in Andy's logical argument, it is really remarkable to me that some people within the watchmen community, some of whom are quite popular and highly regarded by many, are so close-minded as to not even be willing to acknowledge this as a serious, legitimate interpretation, which is at the very least worthy of consideration. To summarily dismiss it out of hand as some do really speaks volumes to the mindset of such an individual and their commitment to traditional scriptural interpretations that are sometimes unsupported. 2 Thes 2 is just one more piece of scriptural evidence that supports the truth of the harpazo before Daniel's 70th week. Maranatha!!!

[@PD-iu9bn]

Agreed. The primary argument I hear from them is “apostasia” cannot possibly be a physical departure. But Andy, among a handful of others, have repeatedly demonstrated that it actually can be. So where does that leave us? I guess dogma?

[@trex1943]

Remember, lots of people are also going off of interpretations on the end times from 200 to 500 year old commentary. listening to people who could not see what we now see, and are ignoring what is directly in front of them

[@rongoodman2844]

💯 Agreed. Very hard to not lose significant respect for those who summarily dismiss this interpretation of apostasia as the rapture. I really don't care how large of a ministry people have, what sort of status they have achieved within the watchmen community, or what sort of traditional views they may be relying upon for the basis of their position. Traditional viewpoints are well worth giving serious consideration to, but they are not automatically right. I care about Truth and am willing to listen openly to a minority viewpoint until such time as I am convinced it contradicts the Word of God. Frankly, imho, Andy's arguments are FAR more compelling than any of the traditional arguments that I have heard others articulate. Some of these people have already said other doctrinal things that I am fully convinced are incorrect, so when they take a dogmatic position on something like this and speak with the same authority that they did on a different doctrine that they were flat out wrong about, it tends to make one highly skeptical.

[@dougietodd5816]

Logic is what Andy offers scripturally makes since I love it

[@donreiddds8327]

Youcritics need to listen to the remainder of this teaching.

[@bevyoung2009]

Thank you Pastor Andy 🙏

[@David-f9x5s]

Thank You!!

[@MLiving4Jesus]

I agree that it is a departure rapture from the world, many great scholars such as J. Vernon McGee, Tomas Ice, John Walvoord, Jewish Messianic scholar Dr. Arnold Fructenbaum and many more also agree. Dr Thomas Ice writes: "The first seven English translations of apostasia all rendered the noun as either “departure” or “departing.” They are as follows: Wycliffe Bible (1384); Tyndale Bible (1526); Coverdale Bible (1535); Cranmer Bible (1539); Breeches Bible (1576); Beza Bible (1583); Geneva Bible (1608).5 This supports the notion that the word truly means “departure.” In fact, Jerome’s Latin translation known as the Vulgate from around the time of A.D. 400 renders apostasia with the “word discessio, meaning ‘departure.’” It is worth noting that there are a couple of points in the text which indicate that 2 Thes 2:3 may be speaking of the rapture/departure of the saints and not just a falling away from the faith: In the Greek it is THE apostacy or THE departure. It has the definite article meaning that Paul had a clear specific event in mind. If he was speaking only of apostacy in general how would anyone know whether that event has occurred? Every generation since the time of Paul himself has experienced apostacy so what event would one look for? There is something very specific about this 'departure or apostacy' in 2 Thes 2:3 and it is something that the Thessalonians were aware of (2 Thes 2:5). They hadn't been taught about an apostacy before the day of the Lord (as far as we know) but they had been taught about the rapture before the day of the Lord (1 Thes 1:10, 1 Thes 4:13 - 5:6). I believe what Paul is essentially saying in the first few verses of 2 Thes 2 is this: "Now concerning the Lord's coming for you at the rapture, don't be frightened or disturbed thinking that it hasn't happened and you are now in the tribulation/day of the Lord. We didn't say or write that. The report that you have heard is not from us and is false. Remember what I told you when I was with you. I told you that the tribulation and day of the Lord cannot happen until the departure happens first. And then the man of sin, the Antichrist, will be revealed." Jewish Messianic scholar, Dr Arnold Fructenbaum writes: "Paul is comforting the Thessalonian believers in that they do not need to be disturbed by any reports that claim the “day of the Lord” (i.e., the tribulation) has come. He says that cannot happen until other things happen first. One of these things is in verse 3 and translated in many English versions as the falling away. However, the Greek word simply means “departure.” This could refer to a moral departure, but it can also refer to a physical departure. From the overall context of this passage, we identify this “departure” as the physical departure of the church from the earth. Further evidence of this identification is based upon the fact that Paul earlier wrote First Thessalonians to the same group of believers and told them that while the body of Messiah (the church) will participate in the rapture (I Thess. 4:13-18), it will not participate in the “day of the Lord” (I Thess. 5:1-11). Therefore, we believe that the best way to interpret 2 Thessalonians 2:2 is that it refers to the “day of the Lord,” that is, the tribulation."

[@despinakouloumbraki]

Thanks Dr Woods!

[@sandraresides9063]

Thanks so much!

[@AnthonyShaw-ty9pi]

Excellent!!

[@cavalier973]

Jesus gave us the prophetic pattern when He talked about the days of Noah and the days of Lot. In both cases, God moved His followers to a place of safety prior to His judgment commencing. Noah didn’t feel a drop of rain, and Lot didn’t have his clothes scorched. Jesus could have talked about “the days of Moses”, when the Hebrews suffered from some of the judgments on Egypt, but He didn’t. Jesus could have talked about “the days of Rahab”, where Rahab and her family were protected from the destruction of Jericho while still living in Jericho, but he didn’t. We talk about a seven year tribulation, but those seven years are part of a grander program that God is working on, which totals four hundred and ninety years, and which was specifically for Israel (Daniel’s people and his holy city). The Church was not part of the first four hundred and eighty-three years, and it will not participate in the final seven years. We have the promise of Jesus in Revelation 3:10 that He will keep us out of the time of trouble that will come upon all the earth. Any teaching other than a pretribulational catching away of the church is a works salvation, in my opinion. A lot of people seem to believe that the church needs to be “purified” by the Tribulation, but Christ’s blood has already purified us. I expect that a lot of Christians, when they hear the Rapture trumpet, will fly up feet-first, clutching mounds of turf in each fist, and shouting, “No! No! No! The Tribulation hasn’t happened yet!”

[@JayaSavannah]

"Synonymous Hebrew Parallelism" I feel so smart now. At some point, I learned that Jewish poetry repeats and that made reading the Psalms so much easier. I really appreciate the in depth treatment you gave it. I may be drawing a faulty conclusion, but it seems like yet another pattern example of Jewish things being done twice with the ultimate example being our Messiah's second advent.

[@juliareynolds7970]

Thank you, Pastor Woods, for your clear, well reasoned arguments. The physical department view is logical in the context of the passage and in the light of the other reasons supporting it. Let's not fight each other over our differences of opinion, but let's rather diligently study God's word to rightly handle the word of truth to be able to understand what the divine Author and Paul intended the original readers to understand. And let's focus on sharing the gospel as God grants us the opportunity to do so. How amazing that He loved us all so much that He gave His unique Son, 100% God and 100% man to shed His blood and die on the cross of Calvary. How amazing that Jesus Christ would choose to die for helpless, hopeless sinners deserving of hell! Then showing His sacrifice on our behalf was completely effective and sufficient as a full payment of the sin debt of the whole world, He was raised up in resurrection life on the third day, just as He prophesied. If you have never trusted in Christ for salvation please do so now. This world is fast heading towards the great and terrible time of the Tribulation. Over and over, the Son of God urged and still urges us through the pages of the Bible to trust in Him and His work of redemption for eternal life. Please read the Gospel of John to understand more. Only the sin of unbelief sends a person to eternal damnation. Only Christ's righteousness is acceptable in God's courtroom. This righteousness is imputed to all who trust in Jesus Christ alone for salvation from hell. Otherwise sinners will stand on their own at the terrible great white throne judgment and in that day no human good works will count because none of us can possibly meet God's perfect standard of righteousness. Salvation is a gift of God which can never be earned. A free gift to undeserving humankind because of the love of a holy God.

[@StephenSulyok]

🙏🏻

[@tiger1023]

I know you will be talking how early translations favor "physical departure". Has anyone looked into Syriac or Coptic translations on this verse? Do they support "physical departure"?

[@donreiddds8327]

Listen on all critics…

[@drummerg3331]

Excellent message as always pastor Andy. Although I do have a question about this verse. Is there an email or another way to contact pastor Andy where I can ask a question? Thank you.

[@bjsandusky9848]

another idea...Paul says we are a new creature and that we are a member of the body of Christ...so how could Christ rain down his fury on His own body?????

[@trex1943]

Christians can all sit around the dinner table and argue pre vs post trib rapture or pre millennium post millennium whatever at the dinner table of the wedding feast in Heaven while the tribulation is going on here. Cause it's coming soon :-)

[@adamhartley8862]

Before arguing about a " departure" is it the day of Christ ( KJB) or day of the Lord ( almost all modern versions) it seems people want to go with the alexandrian codex' when if suits them and the TR when it suits

[@gnc1962]

Apostasia in Acts 21:21 still means departure, and the context tells us it is from "Moses". Without the disclaimer "Moses", we would not know what the departure is from. The claim was that some were alleging that Paul was leading Jews to depart from Moses.

[@jeffmarley7785]

Was the n in Katechon left off by mistake or did you mean Katecho as stated from your cards?

[@rdlossantos3931]

Rowan l contacted you beloved because i saw something great coming your way and i also saw spiritual attacks..i want you to bind them with prayers.. I received this communication from purported by your messenger. I am hesitant to further make conversation exchanges as it makes statements "i saw something great coming your way" kind unlikely. 22:28 Philippine Time

[@emilee172]

the time when the finally of the apostasy of the 'Word' can Only occur when the church of Jesus Christ is removed and for the first time in history all that will be found is the apostasy of the Word with all its false churches and false teachers, so this is, in my opinion, an event that where both occur at the very same moment as the Rapture of the true church of Jesus Christ.

[@fabbrofamily7038]

i have overlooked both the difference between general church apostasy which is also happening now, and THE DEFINITE ARTICLE understanding most clearly now they Paul literally outlined the order of events each explanation ending in the second coming as a reference that all these things must take place, THEN The Day of the Lord. i have learned from jack hibbs that the day of Jesus, the day of Christ, the day of Jesus Christ = the rapture , of which there are many soft references to. and the Day of the Lord, that Day, His Coming = the second coming. amen to the very specificity that God wants us to know!!! Praise the Lord God for you and your ministry and may He bless you lavishly with protections, love , justice and clarity, in Jesus name i pray, Amen. 🙏🏼👆🏼✨🎺☁️👑🕊🪔🪔🪔🪔🪔

[@preacherjoegros1092]

The biggest problem have with this teaching is that they equate { Brick and Mortar Church = Body of Christ Church} Brick and Mortar 🚫 The Body of Christ Church/ It is. Rather interesting that the Tower of Babble was built with baked mud bricks and mortar!

[@KiKi-tf8rv]

He never said that at all. He literally says the opposite of this around the 39 minute mark. Maybe you commented on the wrong video?

[@RVick-ws1xu]

Not buying it, on the surface convincing. But this event works as a catalyst for other things in the chapter. 1) the man of sin is revealed. 2) occupation of the temple by the man of sin. 3) a lie will be generated & people who believe the lie will be condemned. I believe the lie will be the promotion of the counterfeit. People who accept this will be without excuse for the means of determining the evil one is given in Rev 13:18 (bedsides an overall rejection of truth). Other translations utilize the word rebellion rather then apostasy. Better context for the chapter rather then a single focus on one word? Finally if one accepts the rapture interpretation does this not argue for a mid-tribulation rapture? Dr. Woods is one of the last persons I would ever care to disagree with but the context of the chapter requires something else.

[@rdlossantos3931]

*Kind likely you'll say

[@alanhales6369]

Andy Woods. Didn't you wait on God and pray about preaching the word? If not, why?. And if you did wait on God and prayed about your preaching the message, why did you insult God by praying again just before you started to preach. You are right, 2 Thess 2: 3 is a departing from the world. As vs 1--8 teaches, when it's read in it's right context.

[@JayaSavannah]

Are you serious? Calling him out for praying again before the message? He always begins the message with a prayer. Do you really think God is feeling insulted? C'mon now. Don't make God into your own image.

[@alanhales6369]

@@JayaSavannah I take it you are joking, AREN'T YOU. To ask God twice about blessing the preaching of the word, is saying God didn't answer the first time he prayed. There are far to many religious ministers who think they have to pray just before preaching. A good minister will wait on God throughout the week to get God's direction and Anointing for the next time they preach. You are more religious than regeneration.

[@trex1943]

"pray without ceasing"

[@fullfrontalgrace]

The ONLY WAY to break fellowship with The Lord, is through unbelief: PERMANENT UNREPENTANT UNBELIEF. We are always in fellowship with Him. Our flesh having been circumsized from us (everytime you make this false confession, you deny the operation of Christ, of His having circumsized our flesh from us; affirming instead the reattachment of that which has been circumsized/cut away, by His Holy Hands) and that flesh having been nailed to the cross with Him. We having been baptized into His death, planted in Him, resurrected with and in Him and sat down in Heavenly places with and in Him, hid in God. We are complete in Him. Unreprovaalble and unrebukable in HIS SIGHT, IF IF IF we continue in the faith (in faith of Him). Why do you persist in this error and denial the faith declared to you? This comment herewith, is as above addressing the error of your confession to broken fellowship with The Lord of Glory. You can confess to having broken fellowship from fellow believers due to unacceptable behaviour, but not from the Lord, not for sin that has been nailed to the cross with Him. YOU DON'T OWN THAT ANYMORE, it's no longer a part of you. Sin has no part of who you are in Him. There is no darkness in Him. We are in Him. That which cannot be in Him has been cut away from us. He's finished with it. The only way to sew that back on is through PERMANENT UNREPENTANT UNBELIEF. Is that what you insist on declaring? Not intentionally I think... As for OSAS, why is it very nearly everyone forgets the conditional conjunction?? The conditional conjunction injects or introduces a condition that must be met. As example, "IF ye continue in the faith grounded and settled and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel...". "IF ye keep in memory (hold fast) to what it was I preached unto you unless ye have believed in vain.". Such verses are plentiful. As regards being sealed; that is a seal of approval. That seal is based on believing the truth and puts one in reciept as an inheritor to the promise: Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: For IF God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, IF thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. And they also, IF they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again. Not for that we have dominion over your faith, but are helpers of your joy: FOR BY FAITH YE STAND. OSAS apart from faith is a lie. As for the rest, i agree, the restrainer is He The Holy Ghost. And yes, the Greek in my opinion supports the departure. With love in Christ Jesus, TJBreen

[@fullfrontalgrace]

​​​​​​​@user-tb5gq7kp5u ​Your reply is flawed from the outset. 1 john is not speaking to believers, he's speaking to Gnostic unbelievers who argued against the sinful condition of man and that God could not be contained in human form. To your other points, it is Christ who is our life. Eternal life is not eternal without faith of Christ. The only access to that life is through faith. No faith, no access, no access, no life. AND THOU STANDEST BY FAITH. As for being in fellowship not being in relationship...a relationship is fundamental to fellowship. You can't have one without the other. Additionally, your fellowship/relationship with God is not based on what you do or fail to do but instead on what Christ has done. Ergo as you may by now have gathered, you're never out of "fellowship" with your Heavenly Father when in faith of His Son Jesus Christ from our Fathers' point of view. You yourself may not be in full realization of the peace and joy you have with God when walking in error because of a tormented conscience. But you have peace and fellowship with Him through faith in Jesus Christ. For it is no longer we that live but Christ who liveth in us and the life we now live we live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved us and gave Himself for us (when we were yet sinners). We do not frustrate the grace of God, for if righteousness come by the law, then is Christ dead in vain. So then, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before us, we press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus. We do not and are not to have sin consciousness because that keeps us from realizing what is already ours irregardless of behaviour. We could be cast out from the assembly like the goat of Azazel, (Azazel, in Jewish ancient pratice, a demon or evil spirit to whom, in the ancient rite of Yom Kippur (Day of Atonement), a scapegoat was sent bearing the sins of the Jewish people. Two male goats were chosen for the ritual, one designated by lots “for the Lord,” the other “for Azazel” (Leviticus 16:8). ) but if in faith of Him we are NEVER PARTED from HIM. But if we cast Him off, denying our faith of Him; He will cast us off and deny us. I hope this clears things up for you. With love in Christ Jesus, TJBreen

[@fullfrontalgrace]

1 john speaks as a witness as "we" as testimony of those who actually touched The Lord and "handled" Him in the flesh and in resurrection. This witness is to those who deny Him. Little children is said to those who believe. As for needing a dictionary, I assure you, I am not in need of one in this instance. Attempted insults are born out of absolute intellectual insecurity. Refrain from them, it's not a good look and reflects poorly on the gospel. In the chance you think I am advocating for sinfulness, I am not. But I am advocating to live to the glory of what Christ hath won for us who believe. We are those who live by the faith of Christ. We are heirs and sons and daughters of the most high God. We enjoy in this present moment the riches of knowing Jesus. We are in the Spirit and the Spirit in us through the full knowledge of the full assurance of the truth of God in Christ. Not by the keeping of the law unto righteousness, for the law brings death but Spirit begins life. We do not live in bondage to the keeping of the law and fear of judgement, but in the absolute certainty of what Christ has won. There is no burden of expectations for the performance of our flesh but the celebration of having been clothed with Christ He having already circumsized our flesh from us, it is finished. You seem fond of grammatical tenses, pay attention to all that's been written here from the beginning to now. Our efforts are shadows of what has been cut away from us. The lives we now live are in the obedience of faith. He has cut our flesh away. The life we now live we live in full satisfaction of the One who loved us and gave Himself for us. We're not wondering the dessert in absence of faith but in the full assurance of faith of Him who loved us and gave Himself for us. What you are reading here is the meat of assurance of the word. You will either see it and consume or you won't. To this point in this conversation you seem to religious. This is Spirit truth not of the letter of the law but of the Truth. We must recon our flesh as dead, crucified having been nailed to the cross with Christ. Baptised by The Spirit through faith into the death of Christ and resurrected with Him and we are sat down with and in Him in Heavenly places. He is our life and our food, yes our righteousness. The flesh contributes nothing unto righteousness. We who believe are not debtors, we judge our flesh as dead. We are NEVER EVER separated from Him. I pray your eyes are opened that you may enter into His rest in full assurance of what we possess in the One of Whom we are possessed. With love in Christ Jesus, TJBreen

[@fullfrontalgrace]

​​​​​​@@DonasavedbygraceAdam has been cut away from you.... Nailed to the cross with Christ. You won't understand anything without coming to the knowledge of your liberty in Christ. Like I've said from the beginning, we are crucified with Christ. We now longer live but Christ lives in us. We are now slaves of righteousness as sons and daughters of righteousness. A NEW CREATION in faith of Him. We are not what we were. As for rewards at the bema seat, Christ is our rward, our crown etc. The bema seat is the seat of affirmation. The declaration of Christ Who is our glory and we His crown. A gift from our Father to Messiah Jesus. Notice its not rewards as of many but of a reward as of one. This is also true of the crown etc. Once more I hope this helps. With love in Christ Jesus, TJBreen PS, I didn't bring the law, I simply gave an example of the Azazel goat and I gave the scriptural reference for it for your understanding. Nor have I brought an accurssed gospel but the truth of the gospel of Christ. Please read thoroughly EVERYTHING I've written to you so you don't misinterpret. Additionally, I would advise you show this conversation to Pastor Andy. He maybe able to understand. If not, I can explain it to him as well.

[@fullfrontalgrace]

​@@Donasavedbygrace Do you even know what you're saying? I don't think you do. Why don't you ask Pastor Andy how Azazel relates to this topic. It is for edification and comfort and understanding, as Paul tells us. You are not ready for the meat of the word but for the milk only, as you have clearly demonstrated. You have indicated you go to church where Andy pastors. Seek him out, show him this conversation. Ask him to explain it to you. This conversation is now finished. I pray you come to the understanding of the truth of God in Christ. I will not be responding to anything further from you. Thank you.

[@terryjones1718]

All due respect, this teaching is a swing and a miss. Paul, Christ nor the prophet teach a pre Daniel's 70th week "rapture".

[@stevergee]

The man of sin is revealed at the same time as the departure of the remnant of Israel into the wilderness. The depart is not a rapture.

[@garyhirtz4392]

Sorry this man's Bible has many errors. Read the king James Bible 2nd thesalonians verse 3 . Iam for him and subscribe.(truth is christ , youtube).

[@Dbusdriver71]

IF your name isn't written in the Lamb's Book of Life then Nothing makes any difference. Jesus first and foremost. Jesus above ALL else and EVERYTHING else.

[@donaldrothenberger4412]

Look up the original word for the kjv falling away. In the original Hebrew and Greek translation is the word digression. Digression is the actual Hebrew translation. It means a departure. That’s the rapture friend. Also the word apostacia has two meanings. A departure from the faith and a departure from the world. One is happening now as we can clearly see, and one is about to happen as Jesus is about to rapture his church. If you can’t see that in scripture then you’re not looking or you don’t want to see it for some odd reason. Holy Spirit please open this man’s eyes in the name of Jesus.

[@garyhirtz4392]

​@@donaldrothenberger4412yes and you look up truth is christ .lord Jesus open up this man's eyes

[@donreiddds8327]

Listen and you’ll see the Truth

[@rapturesaint]

​@@Dbusdriver7190% of what this pastor is saying is in embarrassing error - both the gospel & eschathology.