Is Naturalistic Reptile Keeping WRONG?

[@AnimalsatHomePodcast]

*Thank you for watching the episode! What are your thoughts? Do you agree that striving to replicate nature can lead us astray?*

[@joshuatempleton9556]

we are not replicating nature we are optimizing nature in our enclosures, we are essentially taking the best parts ie high basking surface, stable and constant humidity, no radical weather or extreme changes. no predators or parasites etc so they can thrive and breed. whether humans are involved or not we still using what the animals evolved to live in to live in captivity.

[@AnimalsatHomePodcast]

@@joshuatempleton9556 absolutely!

[@dshobe720]

I haven't built it yet but designing enclosures that replicate undisturbed nature is only the goal if you keep those animals that exist best in those environs. A viv that has a tin sheet for cover rather than a hollowed stump or a rafter beam vs a branch for a rat snake it all depends on the creatures tastes and the keepers taste. Food presentation can be modified along these same lines offering chicks in a vertically positioned faux nest vs on the tongs might be more useful to the psychology of the snake. Lizards like uros could benefit from a broken roof tile pile on the edge of town but the rock piles cliffs and sparsely vegetated landscapes are what inspires our imaginations. Plants are a key element for herps everywhere and I believe play a significant role in breeding cues for some of the animals we find harder to breed. At different times of the year plants exude organic compounds into the air communicating with other plants of the same species saying its time to put out pollen or the grass hoppers are attacking me produce toxins so they don't get you. Herps can smell this and probably can corrolate that smell with food is coming. That's natural nature to me.

[@AnimalsatHomePodcast]

@@dshobe720 very well said!

[@GalaxyExotics]

Need more breeders like Phillip. What a great ambassador.

[@AnimalsatHomePodcast]

Agreed! Thank you for watching episode

[@garthsreptilecare1295]

Naturalistic can be such an anthropomorphic thing. If you've watched Noah Field's and Tyrone Ping's field herping vlogs, the majority (almost) of their finds are made under metal siding, old mattresses, paving slabs, and other relics of humanity. Naturalistic should also qualify as functionally appropriate.

[@AnimalsatHomePodcast]

Absolutely! Great point

[@valdemarjrgensen8072]

The observation you made in that video you should also be careful in interpreting. The easiest place to find reptiles aren't always the best place for the reptile to be in. If I made a video herping for geckos in QLD you'll see a shit ton of geckos being found on the road, even arboreal species. That doesn't mean the road is a good place to be for them, and they aren't there to soak up heat either as many will probably claim. The thing is the geckos move around, they are spread over the environment fairly evenly. There aren't more geckos in the road than in the bush. However I can cover more ground road cruising and it is easier to spot a gecko against the black road than in the bush that it is adapted to camouflage against. Sure unlike the road, hiding under tin and old mattresses is probably good places for reptiles to be, but it's still worth considering if the places animals are found in the wild is the best place for them to be (and something we should replicate in captivity) or just the easiest place to find them among many places they live. You also see it with ball pythons. They are most commonly found in burrows. But they are all females found there during egg laying season when they go down to lay eggs. Poachers go looking for them in burrows because they know at a certain time of your that's where they'll be and it'll be females so you can get both a grown adult and eggs. Makes and younger individuals spend a lot of time hiding in trees, but it's harder to predict what tree will have a hallow to look in and it's more difficult to climb those trees than dig out burrows. Ball pythons do like those burrows, it's good to give them hides to replicate them. But if you only give them those underground hides because that's where they are not often found, you are neglecting their natural climbing behaviour. Looking at where animals are easiest to find leave you at risk of "sampling bias".

[@garthsreptilecare1295]

@valdemarjrgensen8072 agreed! There are so many considerations to keep in mind with such a subject. Toxins/irritants, heat reflective/absorptive properties, potential to cause physical injury, ontogenetic behaviour shifts, etc. A thorough understanding of the species (and how it interacts with its environment through its applicable life stages) is valuable when planning a care regime.

[@ArcadiaReptile]

I would be very comfortable to contribute to an episode to present the truth about the theory of naturalism and wild re-creation together. Some very valid points here, but from my side, some misunderstanding also.

[@AnimalsatHomePodcast]

As you might assume… I would love to do that! We shall connect about that as well as our fall chat soon 😁

[@rickcroney1286]

Great conversation, it's not about what our enclosures look like but how we create an environment for our reptile family to thrive by being able to display natural behaviors. That doesn't necessarily mean the environment is natural, it means they can climb, dig, bask, swim, hide as needed for the particular species. Clearly we all have our own esthetic but we can achieve the same for our reptiles in their habitats. 🐍🦎🐸💚

[@AnimalsatHomePodcast]

Thanks for watching, Rick! :)

[@turtlejeepjen314]

Guys, THANK YOU for this discussion….!! It is VERY much appreciated!! I am a life-long reptile fanatic. (I am one of those who had reptiles way before the internet existed, & ALSO before the popularity of reptile books, which folks take WAY for granted! Reptile lighting did not exist at the time, nor did the incredible Reptile community that exists today!!) So I appreciate every SECOND of it that exists today!!! When I was little, I noticed my animals seemed to thrive & behave positively when in outdoor sun, as opposed to when they were still much inside all winter… Fast forward to today, & it is AMAZING how much info & resources are available!! I 😢have never been a breeder, nor do I plan to, but it is the HIGHLIGHT of my life when it DOES happen!!! I had pair of snow & albino corn snakes that hatched babies most years, for over a decade. It was magical to find they had started hatching, & I am dead serious. I had a co-worker who had as teenage son & I often gave him most of the hatchings, IF he could show me to whom & where they were going. He actually created small business for himself, & sold the well-started babies for a small amount of $$. (I wouldn’t accept ANY $, as long as they went to good, permanent homes. Many of them went to teachers- (only about 10 babies a year, but he was on the lookout for potential owners all year! I also own bearded dragons, getting my first one from a reptile show I stumbled on in 1996-I have never NOT owned at least one BEARDIE ever since, & to this day!!! (I have only hatched Beardies 2 times in that time period, & had homes (with family & coworkers- for free) for the ones I didn’t keep. I requested the return of all snakes & beardies if they needed to be surrendered. (I had TWO bearded dragons returned BECAUSE they STANK UP THE ENTIRE HOUSE when they went to the bathroom, or had the occasional upset stomach!!! 😮🤣🤣 It was normal poo smell, by the way!!)😂 Not that it matters/anyone cares/reads this, but I ALSO kept Ornate Uromastyx in the early 2000’s (for about 12 years) & they are INCREDIBLE-I love them MORE then Bearded Dragons!!! They are much LESS high-strung then Beardies! Mine WERE CAPTIVE BRED- I went to college at KU, in Lawrence, KS… there is a FAMOUS Pet Store (to folks in the area!😊) called ‘Lawrence Pet World where they were the ONLY place that had reptiles, & had them as exhibit animals, too- There was a ‘reptile guy’ working there who actually bred them himself, & he always had some of them for sale. He kept the ones for sale in a big open ‘sand box’ in the middle of the store WITH bearded dragons that were for sale, & they ALL seemed to get along, & the Uromstyx literally pretended to be Beardies, & they ALL mixed together, basked together, stacked on top of each other, & seemed to enjoy/tolerate each others company!! (Of course, he kept them all the same size, of course!) As a selling point, he told folks the Uromastyx only ate birdseed. However, the Beardies sold better, he said, for whatever reason! At the time, I literally paid $350 for 2 babies (about 4 inches each) and their enclose, a ‘new’ (at the time- a huge deal!) SQUARE, SCREEN-TOP, FRONT-DOOR OPENING tank! I LOVED those little guys!!! Sadly, I made the difficult decision to give them back to the pet-store guy. (I had my son at that time, & I was getting to the point where the husbandry was getting overwhelming- (i had my snakes, Beardies, veiled chameleons, & of course, my beloved snapping turtles!) I don’t know what happened to them after that, or to the guy, but I would imagine he probably still lives in Lawrence/Kansas City area & continued breeding them, only because he was so passionate about them! (Like me, too, but I’m never going to be a breeder of anything- there are so many folks like you guys who can do it FOR me, & folks like me will be looking for your babies for sale in the future!!)🥰💚

[@casandraroberts7617]

You are the reason I started listening to podcasts. I never gave them much attention until I stumbled apon one of your round tables. I love that you can all come together and talk about such important topics, while you don't always agree with each other you are always willing to listen be respectful and actually talk through things. Such a rarity these days. Thank you for keeping minds open to new ideas and helping not only the hobby but the people who enjoy it.

[@AnimalsatHomePodcast]

Thank you so much for the kind words, I really appreciate it!

[@nicholasalexanderdumot]

Thank you both for the shoutout! 🙏🏼 I love to see what has materialized with the network and the show, keep up the great work!

[@AnimalsatHomePodcast]

Thanks Nick, really appreciate it!

[@theshap]

I have a lot of respect for Phil. In a lot of ways I think we are the same type of geeks. We’ve chatted about some of these topics but there are still some things that just don’t make sense and others that are so contradictory. I’ll try to be concise. There is a scientific basis for what pure means and the concept of what does pure mean in relation to reptiles can’t be compared to the idea of pureness in dogs. It’s comparing apples to a tuna sandwich. Reptiles are in most cases fresh of the proverbial and literal boat/plane…and in some less common cases at most 10 generations bred in captivity. In my opinion Herpetaculture doesn’t have the longevity, yet, to have disturbed reptiles species enough to turn purity into a fallacy. I’m not saying there is anything wrong with questioning these things, what’s missing for me is what does Phil’s “pure” mean. Based on what he’s saying it must be some concept outside of the scientific? It’s curious. On to the wild conversation, there are so many things I’m sure we agree on here but the idea of that humans in most instances aren’t in direct opposition to nature is, in my opinion, a falsehood. Almost every decision that humans make, causes harm to some degree to natural spaces and environments. Do you drive a car, fly, consume food from our industrialized food system? The idea of man being in opposition with nature isn’t born in naturalistic herp keeping (which I don’t at all think you think). It’s woven into the fabric of most societies since industrialization and likely before. The idea of “which nature” is a valid question, however in most cases of animals living under a trash, basking on wire, etc… I would say are examples adaptation to ensure survival more than anything. Yes, humans are animals, but we are animals that have made conscious choices as a society that we are better than all other animals, more important and more worthy PLUS we have historically used that flawed belief to systematically destroy and alter the homes of other animals, in some cases to the point of extinction. I guess the thing that really sticks in my side is the conversation about the importance of experimentation and not embracing the wholeness of possibilities that naturalistic keeping comes to the table. And also, I am an artist by training and trade. lm a full time tenured professor of design. Aesthetics are at the center of how I live my life, and I see nothing wrong with that. I strive to create and promote the creation of beautiful terrascapes that also provide great homes for the animals that ALSO are in point with the husbandry. I’m creating a reptile store right now that has full sized fully terrascaped enclosures. I do agree that what is most important is enrichment and that comes in so many ways. I think it’s possible to have insanely beautiful scapes and do it in a way that doesn’t isolate folks that can’t or don’t want to do that. Great conversation you two! I love thinking and talking about this stuff. Hope my thoughts are clear enough.

[@AnimalsatHomePodcast]

Thank you very much for watching the episode and adding to the discussion! Very much appreciated. I think the main point with the aesthetic piece is, you could theoretically have an incredibly aesthetically pleasing enclosure, yet miss the mark husbandry-wise (think a beautifully lush and planted enclosure for a bearded dragon for example). In other words, it’s possible to be tricked into thinking you have an excellent setup by the fact there are natural items in the enclosure. When in reality you have created a environment that is inappropriate for the animal you’re keeping. Either way, it’s a fast any conversation and thanks for being a part of it!

[@theshap]

@@AnimalsatHomePodcast oh absolutely! Aesthetics without husbandry is a horrible combination.

[@NathanButh]

The title brought me in with a level of skepticism, and I'm so glad it did. Semi-ironically, I originally stumbled across your channel through Connor Long while doing research to (hopefully) set up something similar to his Mojave bioactive that you two discussed. Especially happy to have clicked in since your guest breeds Uros(and apparently in a highly ethical manner), which while I i may never have the right setup to keep again, will always be near and dear to my heart. 🥰

[@AnimalsatHomePodcast]

Thanks for watching, Nathan! Glad you enjoyed this episode. If you haven’t watched the first episode with Phil, I highly recommended! It’s more Uro focused

[@saraellman7844]

Thank you to Phillip for talking about no longer breeding Egyptians because it is the responsible thing to do. This is the same issue I have with the mass breeding of Sulcata tortoises, most of them get dumped or passed along to someone else because unsurprisingly they got huge, and cost a fortune to feed. Who didn’t see that coming. Sadly most people are not prepared to properly care for these huge animals that were once tiny, cute and cheap to feed. The same problem has occurred with Tegus and many large monitor species. I have spent 40 years doing animal rescue work and sadly there are so many species that end up going the way of the cute bunny from Easter. The moral to this story is to do in depth research before purchasing an animal that may live 20, 40, 50 or 100 years. Calculate the real cost of proper husbandry and the time required to give these animals their best life. Caring for these beings is a privilege, and they are 100% dependent on us for EVERYTHING! Choose wisely.

[@AnimalsatHomePodcast]

Very well said!

[@learningformyreptiles1195]

I have been trying to push the point that when interviewing breeders and sellers of exotics, that they need to answer what they do for a local rescue, and if they can't why

[@xc1971pp]

Hi, Dillon. How are you? Some of the things I love the most in what I do as an herpeculturist is to know I am interacting with other living beings, seeking to understand them, building a relationship with them and experimenting, sciencewise. I think aiming for a realistic setup should be one of many guiding lines but not exclusively and, certainly, not the priority, here. To me, the starting point in aiming for the best way to care for animals is to aproach them as living beings with much to teach us about their needs, much more than we already know and some people take for granted. To be open to learn from them, to have fair critical judgement, to be aware, to be observant, to experiment and having thought flexiblity are keys to achieve a better care and, from that, we will gather precious knew scientific knowledge, which is crucial for conservation purposes. Hope you are well. Hug from Portugal. Paulo

[@AnimalsatHomePodcast]

Hi Paulo, I am doing well! Hope you are too. Thank you for watching the episode and adding to the conversation. Very well said 🙏🏻

[@justarthur1788]

I think as with most things common sense is important. I've been practising in the UK for > 10 years and keeping animals much longer. I've said many times that merely copying the wild is lazy. It's necessary in the very beginning because at least you know the animal can survive in those parameters. But, and it's a big but, the conditions any animal encounters in the wild are a mix of the necessary, the enjoyable/positive and the negative which are endured because the animal has no choice. I think the ideal is to aim for the best of both by offering choice and observing, which admittedly can be tricky. The aim should be to try to keep what the animal needs as well as what it enjoys while eliminating as much of the things it doesn't like/endures as possible. If the "wild" is so perfect why did we spend so much time, effort and resources over the period of our own existence as a species building the modern housing we inhabit today? I doubt there are many people that would give up their comfortable, heated homes, electricity, internet etc to go live in "the wild". It's also worth pointing out that virtually every species when properly cared for tends to live longer in captivity. The exceptions are things we can't keep properly. Two examples that instantly spring to mind are whales or larger sharks like great whites for example, we simply can't provide what they need and the evidence is right there in that we can't even achieve normal lifespans in these animals. On the flip side, at the other extreme, keeping a snake or lizard in a small box (even worse it it's opaque) is akin to keeping a human in a cell, it'll survive and may even breed but it's far from the ideal. Imagine someone making the argument that because people are capable of reproducing in a prison or concentration camp environment that's the ideal way to keep them, it'd be a forehead slap moment without doubt.

[@AnimalsatHomePodcast]

Excellent points! If I was a "kept" animal I sure as hell would hope that my keeper wouldn't feel the need to replicate the -40C winter climate I live in ha! And very good point about reproducing in prison. I have always said that the act of "reproducing" is such a base-level behavior that it can't be used to determine welfare, but using the prison example is far more poignant

[@learningformyreptiles1195]

My only problem is the words, common sense, the only thing in the world that is common sense for everyone in a 24 hr period is pooping, maybe peeing, so getting everyone to see that, people complain that the laws to keep hognose here in Missouri is to mich, it not that you can't, just it is harder, they don't want things to get out into the wild and more and damaging the local population of hognose, but they say it is stupid laws, but it is to protect the local, which is not stupid. No one is making money off them, to me that sounds very common sense law, but people think it dumb.

[@justarthur1788]

@@learningformyreptiles1195 Politely disagree, common sense has a defined meaning within the English language. Defaecating and urinating are biological necessity, common sense isn't required to do either of those things.

[@paulwhite9242]

exactly! I'm subjected to rush hour traffic, but it's damn sure not required or particularly beneficial. And I've been subjected to temps of 105 and -15 (Fahrenheit). I could do without those and if I hadn't been able to use aids to survive them I would've died.

[@dantan1249]

The lip/ gum infections thing is so relatable. My last lizard I bought had bleeding gums and a swollen upper lip. Luckily the proper heat and humidity remedied it. He was worth it but they told me he was in perfect health. He also has about a .25 inches missing from his tail but it’s not too bad.

[@AnimalsatHomePodcast]

Yeah that’s definitely annoying! At least you were able to reverse the issues. However, it would’ve been nice if the seller give you a heads up!

[@TortugasEnGalicia]

Great vision, totally agree and definitely I'm trying to do the things like he's doing right now. Thank you so much for your work and this awesome content 🙌🏻🙌🏻🙌🏻

[@AnimalsatHomePodcast]

Thanks for watching the episode!

[@ItsJayCross319]

Great talk, guys. Really enjoyed this one. On the point of experimentation and success: I always like to remind myself that progress is never linear. You will have failed experiments, you will overlook something occasionally, you will always make mistakes, but the choice to learn from those mistakes is what separates good herpetoculturists (or practitioners of any hobby) from mediocre and bad ones. On the point of the naturalistic fallacy: I am on the fence on a couple topics discussed here. While I totally agree that humans are "wild" animals, and that we're here living amongst so much of the wild, I don't think we can negate the negative impact that many human settlements have had on wild habitats. Sure, that iguana may have "chosen" to sit on that barbed wire by the human standard of choice, but barbed wire is a human element built to harm anything that decides to scale it. It's an invasive element to the iguana's habitat that could absolutely harm it if the iguana goes about perching or climbing the wrong way. I don't think its fair to animals that have been given no choice but to use human elements in their daily lives to say that they have fully willingly weighed all options and made a "choice" to use them as part of their lives. On the other hand, I do fully agree that our idea of the "wild" and the separation of human impact and wild areas are pitted against each other equally unfairly. There is no perfect "wild" habitat where these animals are living in bliss, but I don't think we can fault keepers too much for trying to replicate the wilder aspects of an animal's natural habitat, even if it's almost purely for aesthetic reasons. In captivity, there is a delicate balance between giving your animal naturalistic enrichment while also artificially keeping up with their needs on a day-to-day basis. For me, there's a good balance of natural-looking but artificial enrichment and purely aesthetic naturalistic features that the animals truly don't care about that satisfy the needs of both the animals and myself as a keeper. Really great talking points in this episode, and I agree with most of what was said, but had a couple small bones to pick. Keep up the good work, guys!

[@AnimalsatHomePodcast]

Glad you enjoyed it, Jay! Thanks for watching and thanks for adding your thoughts. I very much fall into the "aesthetic camp". I like my enclosures to look natural, but I also understand that you could make an enclosure look "natural" and simultaneously create the wrong environment for said species. It's a balance like you said!

[@6strings735]

Great discussion! Your breakdown of "lines" - so true. We love to assign the name of a person to a "line" of animal, even when many other people may have the exact same thing.

[@AnimalsatHomePodcast]

Thank you for watching, glad you enjoyed it!

[@johnreeves6854]

I breed hognose and am looking g at getting a blue tongue but I am not doin as a job I just love these reptiles obviously this guy truly cares about what he's doin makes alot of since I want to do the best I can for my reptiles much respect to this man

[@effveekay604]

My nigriventis was in a great mood and more sociable than ever for like a week after I rearranged the enclosure.

[@darcieclements4880]

Oh good, I can't wait to listen to this. I have to explain this soooooo frequently I would love to be able to direct people to a video because a heck of a lot of harm comes from people falling into this trap and spreading it before they have enough experience to know the dangers.

[@AnimalsatHomePodcast]

Enjoy the episode! 😊

[@snakemannn1744]

AMAZING BROTHER I DID ENJOY THE SHOW ,,,, A1 HIT AS ALWAYS ,,,, ME SPEAKERS KNOCKIN ' ,,,

[@AnimalsatHomePodcast]

Thanks man!! 🙏🏻😁

[@Dracobear13]

Excellent show my friend. I'm agreeing with much of Philips ideas. 40 years of keeping reptiles has taught me much of this because i pay attention to my reptiles. Unfortunately many are of the idea reptiles can just be caged and food thrown in. You miss so much natural activity that way. THANK YOU for trying to advance herpticulture.

[@AnimalsatHomePodcast]

Glad you enjoyed the episode! Thanks for watching as always!

[@jamesmurphy6131]

i have given a handful of different substrate/furniture ensembles the college try with blood pythons and have settled on newspapers with crumpled and semi crumpled layers between flat layers and an ocassianal chunk of cardboard perhaps. A) does a beter job at being leaf litter than any leaflitter type substrt i have ever used B) allows my focus on humidity to come from what i feel are healthier areas than relying on a stagnant bedding for acomplishing this C) inhibits "spot cleaning" and encourages more husbandry practices on my part D) etc., etc., etc.,

[@AnimalsatHomePodcast]

Interesting! Especially regarding the humidity point. I completely agree, reptile keepers tend to rely on the worst sources for their humidity!

[@jamesmurphy6131]

i guess it depends on who's passing judgement: if a residential contractor was to see my rampant use of humidifiers all up agsinst the drywall and carpet they would probably throw a bolt out the side of their neck and insist i start using the sopping wet coconut fiber method instead!

[@AnimalsatHomePodcast]

@@jamesmurphy6131 haha true!

[@Myownsilk81]

I breed Pogona Henrylawsoni! Underrated species…but I’m happy they’re not saturated in the market. 😊

[@AnimalsatHomePodcast]

Awesome! 😊

[@jamyianswiss2347]

Let’s begin with the assumption that an attempt to approximate an animal’s natural habitat is a useful operative assumption as a place to START. If we fail to make this clear then some of the arguments presented here will be eagerly distorted and weaponized by mass breeders and rack system users who constantly dismiss any and all notions of naturalistic husbandry. That said, the important idea in all of this is that proper husbandry, along with enrichment, can be achieved without natural appearance; and natural appearance does not assure best practice husbandry. This is a simple and clear idea. But the repeated invoking of examples drawn from human behavior is ludicrous and does not serve the case logically or compellingly. Humans are not wild animals! And what distinguishes humans is their ability and practice of altering their environment to suit themselves. This is pointless as some kind of model or example of captive maintenance of wild animals and simply renders the argument silly - even though the fundamental issue is certainly important.

[@johnschlesinger2009]

Thanks for a great talk. I agree with him completely. Going for "naturalistic" setups can so easily become obsessive, which is not to say that I keep my snakes in minimalist setups.

[@AnimalsatHomePodcast]

Thanks for watching, John!

[@CricketsMa]

What an informative and fascinating episode! I loved it! Thank you.

[@AnimalsatHomePodcast]

I really enjoyed this one as well, thanks for watching Suzanne 😊

[@FreshwaterIchthyology]

Personally I come from an angle of someone who deals almost entirely with wild caught fishes, I prefer them wild caught for a variety of reasons. Reptiles not sure wild caught is quite the same but parasite loads shouldn't differ and if anything there is a lot more to work out with wild fishes. I have often seen people saying nature = good. And there is a lot of naturewashing around. Like medications, natural so they are safer and deal better with the pathogen then otherwise yet the greatest toxins are produced by nature, a lot of these also don't work. And some of these are even toxic, tea tree oil being sold for small mammals but for fishes really don't deal with any pathogens. Most people are not aware of how anthropogenic a certain area is. A big pet hate of mine though is generalisations of ecosystems. I've seen people say they have made a South American biotope, there is no one South American habitat, African fishes also fall into that sad generalisation. People think of Africa and seem to focus either on the Rift Valley (itself is very diverse) and forget how large that continent is and the Rift valley is more or less unique due to geology. Matching nature doesn't mean it's getting all of the animals requirements, most of them are made for human requirements. Personally I think biotype is better, just meeting an animals physiological and behavioural requirements. On top of generalisation I've seen a lot of misinformation about where species come from and the lack of curiosity for many people to question anything. E.g. people are going around saying guppies, Poecilia reticulata are hard water and need hard alkaline water, there are many wild populations at a pH of 5. And what do we do with domestics or hybrids? We maybe are making a lot of assumptions. Oxalates are certainly interesting! Aroids are meant to be high in them but different species and genera definitely vary. I have guinea pigs and one managed to reach for an arum lily and immediately on chewing spat it out, another ate a Philodendron plowmanii leaf no idea who and no issues. I think you can smell or see species higher in them, I can tell immediately a stem has broken on certain species based on a smell. Another aspect I wonder is how natural lighting effects calcium oxalate issues and honestly someone mentioned potentially it actually helps, not sure this can be done inside but no idea? From memory I have seen a paper infer potentially calcium oxalate toxicity isn't the same as many peoples ideas. Tannoids are a toxin and antivitamin I never see mentioned but maybe because nature=good. Most plants people use aquarium, terrarium etc. are not placed where they would be naturally. Climbing plants placed hanging and terrestrial plants placed under water and people wonder why they never flower or mature because they can't. Yet then people expect these plants to function as they would if grown in a setup they could mature. One thing related to plants maybe is there is a lot of generalisation of soil for plants and the nutrients they required. My mum and dad therefore me are massively into horticulture so there is a lot we would think of beyond humidity and light.

[@AnimalsatHomePodcast]

Thanks for adding to the discussion, Rebecca. Fascinating as always :)

[@learningformyreptiles1195]

The thing I haven't dived into yet is the ph and chemistry of soils, and how that changes effects plants let alone reptiles that bury themselves or eat the plants from that soils

[@FreshwaterIchthyology]

@@learningformyreptiles1195 I would say if anything for animals that eat plants from soils it could influence nutrition. Reptiles I can imagine there might be an influence, particularly maybe any benefits from substrates in digestion but it is likely not studied or well known. Certainly though the soil parameters would influence the microbes present and there for anything involved in bioactive.

[@learningformyreptiles1195]

@FreshwaterIchthyology that what I am thinking, I work as a chemist for a global agricultural company and it now always in the back of my mind, so cherry shrimp have to have a very controlled ph in the water, why would a sandwich not aswhile, maybe not as much, but something, and where would the ph benefit the most, I have seen substrate blister the skinks underbelly, but that was rocks or clay rocks with rough edges, thinking how could ph or other material in the soil help heal those

[@lorrainekay13]

Fantastic episode. Phil is the epitome of ethics. And also hilarious. I sometimes ask one of my lizards if he would like to go visit the kingsnake? LOL. But his point is excellent. Not everything natural is "good". But at the same time neither is a completely stress free life. Function over form. I feel like so much of what people do are for their own aesthetic enjoyment and not for the animals benefit. Thanks again, Dylan. PS...I do ! I have piles of different "stuff" that I rotate in and out of enclosures. Last week I bought a doll house for the baby snakes to play in. :)

[@AnimalsatHomePodcast]

Thanks so much for listening, Lorraine! Happy to hear you enjoyed this one 😊

[@scandinavian_goannas]

Interesting podcast, very nice. The adaptation in house geckos is really showing that its ok that our cages dont look like a piece of nature. Ive seen house geckos in restaurants in the Philippines, eating boiled rice and small pieces of fried fish that people dropped on the floor.

[@AnimalsatHomePodcast]

Thanks for watching, glad you enjoyed the episode!

[@knotsripol]

Makes sense! It is hard to replicate nature. I think nature can be unforgiving and the weak parishes.

[@tipping_scales]

This was a very good episode to come back and watch now that the WWR dust is beginning to settle

[@AnimalsatHomePodcast]

Hoping to have Adam in a couple of weeks to talk all about that!

[@tipping_scales]

@@AnimalsatHomePodcast looking forward to it!

[@DomesticDinos]

Very good episode, thank you.

[@AnimalsatHomePodcast]

Thanks for watching!

[@DomesticDinos]

@AnimalsatHomePodcast you have inspired us to be an enrichment based breeder and be the change we want to see in the reptile community. Keep doing a great job educating the masses!

[@AnimalsatHomePodcast]

@@DomesticDinos That is incredible! I love that :)

[@learningformyreptiles1195]

1:05:59 the naturalistic fallacy definitely needs to be addressed when talking about quarantine, I use foam heads for species that want to climb, they love them, and they are safe for the species I have, and I can sanitize it

[@kevinpoe8137]

I wanna know what he did to get the sand fish and the Schneider skinks to breed

[@AnimalsatHomePodcast]

I’m sure he’d be willing to share if he sent him a message on Instagram!

[@kevinpoe8137]

@@AnimalsatHomePodcastanother thing I’d like to add is when I was younger I had a Saharan uromastyx (yellow form) and interestingly enough it didn’t show much interest in veggies, but it loved insects, it would stalk the crickets like a cat and slowly wiggle its tail around before pouncing and one of my cousins was visiting at that time and he said his teacher also had one, but it preferred veggies over insects, thinking back on it, that’s kind of interesting

[@franklinj480]

Regarding the naturalistic fallacy. Why do we call Sceloporus fence lizards? Because they prefer man-made fences! Just like the whiptails in Supai, or the anoles in Florida or the geckos on the ceiling in Costa Rica. Humans introduce force multipliers that allow specific niches for herps to thrive. Use those roof tiles my dude. My mom has a S.jarovii living within her concrete rooftiles and subsisting on the lush resources her garden provides. Aesthetic and functionality are not directly connected.

[@cassidyconroy4308]

I looked at this man without knowing anything about him and got the Brazilian jiu jitsu vibe. Fucking hilarious that he coaches BJJ. I basically grew up in a Gracie Barra gym so I guess I have the intuition to notice a grappler, lol.

[@AnimalsatHomePodcast]

😂😂 I guess they have a look 😆

[@learningformyreptiles1195]

21:08 I love odd skinks, just skinks in general, the emerald tree skink is not in that for me, to fast and filghty

[@AnimalsatHomePodcast]

They are incredible creatures!

[@IvLixer]

Is the wild that is suppose to be in. What is the animals life style without humans there? That’s what should be replicated.

[@paulwhite9242]

I agree that the naturalistic fallacy is real, but I also spend a lot of time field herping and my observations there absolutely inform the care I offer to my animals. If I know X species is strongly associated with aquatic habitats (say Thamnophis proximus) that'll probably influence how I set up their enclosure. If I find them climbing regularly I'll allow for that (Coluber, Masticophis). But damn it's nice to see someone point out how strongly aesthetics based a lot of it seems to be.

[@AnimalsatHomePodcast]

Very well said, Paul ! Thank you very much for watching the episode!

[@ABUSAKIN84]

nice

[@ernesteison7979]

Naturalistic? When I (legally at the time) imported Mali uromastyx, in numbers. On one occasion a few escaped at my facility in SW FL. My place was a virtual rainforest (the polar opposite of their natural environment), with a few high spots suitable for burrowing. The Uro's (5) found one of these spots and set up a small colony. I don't know if they ever reproduced but they were thriving for several years. Until I relocated and gave them to a neighbor that I knew could take good care of them. Disclaimer: For the..... it's your fault. invasive species !!!, Florida!!!, Burmese pythons!!!, ranters, and preachers. Keep believing everything you read and hear about that. You'll be better educated and smarter for it. I can agree with Phil Lietz on many of his points. No doubt he's an expert in his area of captive husbandry(the species he works with). But like most newer guys. Overall he's not well-rounded. Some of his comments seem a bit naive, maybe not the right word. Contrary to what most of the KZbin generation I listen to seem to believe. The average herpetoculturist of today is closer to 40 years behind the curve than they are forward-thinking or advanced.

[@AnimalsatHomePodcast]

Interesting thoughts! Fascinating that the uros were able to survive in such an “unnatural” climate

[@ernesteison7979]

What I thought was really interesting. Was that the lizards didn't just scatter when they escaped. They all went west and went to the same spot, dug their burrows close to each other, and formed a uro community. 2.3 if I remember. That's not random, there is a lot more to it. It's likely they bred but maybe the climate didn't allow for the eggs to hatch. @@AnimalsatHomePodcast

[@AnimalsatHomePodcast]

Very interesting!

[@nathanrupley]

Great conversation, but I can't keep from pointing out that both of you used the Naturalistic Fallacy to defend selective breeding for looks.

[@AnimalsatHomePodcast]

Thanks for watching, Nathan! Can you expand on that? If I remember correctly we spoke about how difficult it would be to remove the "human element" (i.e., being attracted to something specific) from the breeding process?

[@nathanrupley]

@@AnimalsatHomePodcast Yes, the naturalistic fallacy is actually slightly different than than an appeal to nature argument. The naturalistic fallacy is just basking an argument on "because it is, it should be". It seemed like both of you were implying that selective breeding for looks was fine, because humans inevitably do it when they domesticate animals for long times. My contention is that 1. This is not necessarily true in all cultures, and 2. Even if it were, our ethics shouldn't be based on just on what is, but also on what could be. Many cultures never domesticate anything. Among the ones that do, when some people push domestication very far, there are usually other people who are there attempting to bring the wildness back into it. Does that make sense?

[@nathanrupley]

Ha ha, I love that auto correct changed basing to basking.

[@learningformyreptiles1195]

I don't think either of these 2 believe breeding just for looks is best, but the episode may make it sound that way, their is something wrong with just doing it for looks, their have been cases where people think their looks are the only looks that should go forward in the human race, and that doesn't turn out well. It is interesting

[@AnimalsatHomePodcast]

Makes total sense! I actually agree with your point, I think implementing it would be a whole other can of worms (just like everything else in herpetoculture ha). My main point was that breeding groups of animals will likely skew towards a certain appearance just strictly due to the breeder selecting animals they think look good (even if they do it subconsciously and/or without aim at pursuing a specific "look"). I think it would be difficult to eliminate this bias. Definitely a fascinating point to discuss further!

[@learningformyreptiles1195]

1:00:30 their is not enough talk on how to spot scammers

[@lorrainekay13]

Sandfish!!!!!!!!!!!! Yes! :))))

[@alberto2alvarez14]

I think we all know what kind of wild we are talking about you need to stay off the pot my friend stop over thinking.

[@alanrobisonPD1960]

This podcast is so boring, I listened to the whole thing and took nothing from it. Why you had this dude come on your channel is beyond me. Your comments made sense, but the other dude just wasted our time. He needs to have a list of what’s important and write it down, this guy adlibs everything!! It’s so horrible!! I like your channel but having this guy come on your channel and just blabs over and over. I’m lost just listening to him. Help!!!!

[@AnimalsatHomePodcast]

That’s OK, Alan! Not every episode is for everyone. Thanks for listening to it anyway!

[@rexplorer.official]

So let’s put a snake in a shoebox for the rest of it’s life 😂. Put a fish in a sandy desert. Obviously put the animal in it’s natural environment. Who thinks putting a polar bear in the desert is a good thing just because it’s “natural”? Wtf?

[@AnimalsatHomePodcast]

I'd love to hear your thoughts once you get a chance to listen to the episode!

[@FreshwaterIchthyology]

Technically polar bears are from a desert, a polar or arctic desert biomes classified by arid conditions. Just not the traditional desert people think of or depends on the definition but there is no typical desert I guess because they are all diverse even depending where in that same desert you are. It probably shows why these terms are so vague like rainforest as we have rainforests here in the UK are nothing like the different rainforests in South America.

[@Orpheus422]

Canada nice. 😊