animation fans and women's bodies.

[@harriyanna]

ok pinning this because i know people will comment without watching. 1. i state that i did not watch velma. 2. this is a video that focuses on how people respond to women aging in animation and how it's been an issue.

[@EmpressDiana409]

As a desi black girl who watched Velma S1, the show is actually very offensive and extremely unfunny. There's nothing progressive about it. It's almost like it's jarringly trying to offend people on both sides of the political spectrum.

[@seeleunit2000]

I've seen Velma through reaction videos and the show is just unfunny as it is a waste of an opportunity. Never mind the racial character swap (which is not important) it's the fact that this show could have been so much more yet, they didn't do anything with it. But you're not wrong that people need to stop giving women grief over aging

[@ceikaiyiacheeksthedirector2920]

I'm actually fine with Velma and just watching to see what they do with the plot and how they build relationships with the other characters in the show

[@eauxkei702]

While unfunny, I didn't find anything offensive about it. As far as offensive levels, it was no worse than anything you'd see on Adult Swim.

[@ajewishchristianmuslim]

@@EmpressDiana409 what is a desi black girl? are you half black half indian?

[@facethreetimes]

Ppl complaining about how Tiana looks like she gained weight are prolly the same ppl that can't fathom that some ppl are indifferent to weight gain or view gaining weight as good

[@BlackAutMedia]

Tiana was unhappy and overworked. She was working around the clock to the point where it strained her relationships and led to her saying she needed to get her restaurant off the ground so her father's death could have meaning. It was never a healthy situation, so having her age happily and gain weight should be seen as a positive if anything. It signifies that she's growing securely and living in a way that has her needs met. It kind of ties to the broader issue of what you're driving at, which is how desirability politics shapes character designs and discourse around women in animation. That's why it's such a great thing when it comes up and handled in a respectful and natural way. Bojack Horseman had one of its main characters gain weight and have a permanent character design change because they started taking medication and it's presented not just as a good thing but a healthy and positive thing that she's not only aged more but gained weight. The Owl House was also good about showing characters age and you can look at production team interviews and concept art to see that they wanted to go an even greater distance with how they depicted the characters as aging without it being presented as a negative toward them. Fatphobia, ageism, queerphobia, and misogynoir goes so deep in general that in animation it often becomes a shorthand way to communicate to the viewer which characters are deserving of humanity and sympathy. Shows like the Boondocks come to mind especially with how it designs women where they won't be presented as desirable (and thus worth caring about or treating with respect) unless they check off most if not all of the following boxes: - Thin Body - Straight Hair - Light skin - no wrinkles - Not queer or perceived as queer Ebony Brown is intentionally designed to be a representation of a "perfect" woman and they present that with making her thin and athletic, straight hair, light skin, and happy to laugh off virulent racism and misogynoir coming her way. Even cases like Luna, the "Killer Kung Fu Wolf B****" still communicate to the viewer that she's a desirable person for her body and features, but is wasting her worthwhile features by being so angry, bitter and emotional in how unstable she is. On the other hand, their way of ridiculing Tyler Perry is in how they link elements of Queerness to him and ultimately make a joke at Robert's expense at how his goal to pursue sexual gratification from women ends in failure and he's instead stuck and punished with a fat woman and the misfortune of kissing a predatory gay man who is convinced that he's a woman, so it's a mixture of fatphobia, colorism, and transmisogynoir. If a character deviates from traits labeled desirable by eurocentrism, they are presented as an object of ridicule, treated as a joke to laugh at, or an object of disgust to be used as punishment for male characters. Shows like In The Boondocks, Living Color with Wanda (the entire joke being that she's a disgustingly ugly, dark, and mannish woman) One Piece, etc all do some variant of this in how they use fat, dark-skinned, or trans bodies to "punish" characters for their womanizing behavior. It comes back to desirability politics which translates not so much "who is attractive" and more "who is deserving of humanity?" In Family Guy, they make a joke where Ida Quagmire, a trans woman assumes that Meg is also trans because in the context of the show, Meg is often seen as overweight and ugly, so they figure by that logic, she must be trans. It communicates that all aspects of desirability under eurocentric beauty standards are not only a determining factor of who is considered human, but they bleed into who is considered human and become almost interchangeable with one another. A good example is Living Single, which had a joke where Max (the only dark-skinned Black woman in the main cast) is at a gay bar and hit on by someone who assumes that she must be trans because he sees her as dark-skinned and "mannish" that she must be trans. The joke is ultimately at Max's expense in how it simultaneously ungenders her and how she uses transphobic rhetoric to justify how she's a "real" woman making it both transphobic and colorist. Because the writers have a set of traits that are deemed undesirable, they become interchangeable, so dark-skinned Black women become interchangeable with fat women and with trans women to the point where they all become signals to the same ridicule. To your point, it's a very rampant issue within the animation community when it's so standard to see even fictional women (and girls, grossly enough) bodies as objects of desire to the point where it becomes a form of visual storytelling. There's an expectation that if a woman/girl gains weight, is dark-skinned, is queer or trans adjacent (ex. crossdressing characters can often introduce transphobia in a story even if they're not trans) there needs to be a story-related reason for it, which also translates into how people are perceived outside of fiction when those same bigotries rationalize dehumanizing and brutalizing the real people. Aging is a natural, neutral and unavoidable part of life, but it's not treated as such.

[@espeon871]

What a good and insightful essay!! You explain so well!

[@Feminazi1dc]

It’s so true. It’s at the point where sometimes when I’m drawing it’s genuinely so hard to draw unique ppl bc it looks “wrong” or like a “bad drawing” unless they are a perfectly beautiful person. It’s crazy how deep it goes .

[@lewa3910]

The idiots complaining about Tiana looking older, when she's Literally Older really are brain broken by Disney's classic aesthetic of the majority of their most popular female characters looking like teen girls, even the female characters that are barely in their 20s. A great example of varied bodytype women in animation i still think about is Gundam: The Witch From Mercury, just a fantastic anime to this day that's stuck in my brain, despite some of the misogynistc parts of gundam's fandom still cry about it making the Gundam series " Forced woke" (which is just them outing themselves as conservative fake fans, cuz thinking Gundam wasn't a woke, politically aware series, is like thinking Star Trek or X-men wasn't either).

[@theluigifan1]

the male gaze is often a contributing factor for why certain characters end up being overlooked for others. it’s a very annoying trend and honestly, i wish it would go away. twitter seems to be the central internet hub for nonsense like this these days.

[@pandez1759]

Seriously the fact she a mom and still goth is so cool to me people dont get it

[@LilyandJasper]

I started watching S2 of Velma because why not, and… surprisingly it’s not as bad as S1 was. And I remember seeing Thorn on the first episode and thought, “Omg, that’s one of the Hex Girls!” But it wasn’t until I opened IG and Threads to see people bitching about how she looks older and “no longer attractive”. God forbid a woman ages in front of these people! 🤦🏾‍♀️

[@rosesweetcharlotte]

There are a lot of things to critique Velma for, but Thorn looking like a normal aging woman isn't one of them

[@LilyandJasper]

@@rosesweetcharlotte Exactly! 👍🏾

[@seeleunit2000]

That's the issue. Women are expected to be eternally young and pretty otherwise we're seen as nothing. It really is nauseating

[@izzyc127]

@@rosesweetcharlotteas someone who doesn’t plan on watching Velma but has seen pics of Thorn, I thought they did a good job of making her look like her VA Jennifer hale.

[@espeon871]

Right! Also shows how a lot of these "fans" who will yell at scream and advocate from gatekeeping are the ones who shld be gatekept from their own fandom cuz of the way they treat characters like sex objects rather than good characters of people regardless of quality of writing, i feel if they were all "hot" people wldnt be as mad esp the conservative types , if that wasnt bad enough, the misogyny that permeates that argument had to be the disgusting cherry on the top. The way these people wld try to seen logical when in reality theyre malding over an aging irl woman that isnt their fantasy anymore, as if their reason for consuming some media is escapism from...normal people.

[@nueshb4797]

The aversion and outright contempt for aging women in media is pretty insufferable. It's like a light switches off in people's heads when a woman doesn't have neotenous features and they become more callous.

[@Feminazi1dc]

Nobody would gaf if it was a male character

[@ajewishchristianmuslim]

the shock and HORROR when I tell people Im 32

[@kerisaltchannel3817]

9:58 Fr because HELLO THERES WORSE SCENES LIKE HOW THERE ARE INAPPROPRIATE SITUATIONS WITH HIGH SCHOOLERS but no! The race is much more important/s 😑

[@spin08]

People really got to understand that women aging don't mean that they gon stay the same after 20-25 years. It's sad that the current sentiment in the modern day both in real life and when people talk about fiction it's "oh if you don't have a super hot and sexy body, you're ugly" which ain't true at all. All women are beautiful, cute, and pretty whether they're real or not. The fact that someone also wished for the people on Velma who made Thorn's new design to be fired is telling of the type of person they are. Great video Harriyanna and thanks for today's birthday gift!

[@sakunaruful]

There are ways to age gracefully that involve proper exercise and an eating regiment.

[@spin08]

@@sakunaruful Exercise and "eating regiments" varies from person to person

[@sakunaruful]

@@spin08 True.

[@Feminazi1dc]

It’s so bad that’s why plastic surgery is becoming normal bc ppl are afraid of “aging out” of the things they love such as fashion

[@espeon871]

The way people complain abt tiana's body is insane, because...SHE WAS STARVING, SHE WAS OVERWORKED!! Her gaining weight, is a good thing for her esp cuz that means shes slowly getting rest and shes doing what she loves, cooking for her family and clients and friends. Also thorne being a normal middle aged goth woman, is actually so cool, i love seeing older alternative people. The way losers were losing it over her being a normal middle aged woman and not a sex object is really telling of what type of people they are, misogynistic losers whos escapism is to escape normal people. Weird.

[@kevonhankerson2124]

its obvious that the people complaining about Tiana and thorn's weight never interacted with women before and it shows its very normal for a woman's appearance to change when it comes to aging they need to get over themselves and touch grass because its not that deep

[@Pinkywinkykinky]

I actually thought her 'mom bod' was pretty : (

[@eauxkei702]

Animation fans are the worst. I say this as someone who was an animator in the 00s/2010s. Toxic industry with toxic fans.

[@sassy_sasarai4090]

I dunno. I think Tiana's new design is cute but I think it's very suspect that Disney chose to do this type of redesign with their only black Princess? I would say there's actually an over-representation of black female characters that are thick, matronly and/or light skinned. It's like they are not comfortable with portraying a black woman as a "true" member of the cute, merchandiseable princess club. Mind you, this is after they had her as a frog for the majority of her movie, attached her to a white best friend with a stereotypical princess aesthetic, and then kept leaving her out of Princess merch every time I went to buy presents for the girl kids in my family. I was seeing more Mulan and Merida for the longest time. I really suspect the Disney company has some kind of issue with this character.

[@sleepygeekyandreadytodream...y]

I think my problem with Thorne isn't that shes older (although it does throw a wrench in the whole 'this show is the origin story of mystery inc' cuz i thought the hex girls were like the same age if not a lil bit older than them) i think its more of a character design issue? Like to be fair i guess they wanted to make her recognizable for fans but i felt they could've given her a better outfit than just the dress shes always worn. Especially since shes supposed to be a retired rock star. I dunno

[@rosesweetcharlotte]

But I think that's why I liked the look. A lot of us continue dressing the way we always dressed even if it maybe doesn't look the best

[@sleepygeekyandreadytodream...y]

@@rosesweetcharlotte I can respect that

[@evelyneca7454]

I did watch Scoobydoo as a kid but I have no idea who Thorn is as a character. Had no idea she was a beloved character. This is literally the first time I've heard of her. It's crazy to me how people are reacting to how she looks? I could understand if someone is sad because their favourite character plays a different kind of role in the show now but the way people are going for her look is just ridiculous.Her waist is slim and tiny. Not a grey hair or wrinkle in sight. She looks like a hot and cool older goth. I can only WISH I will look like that when I'm that age. I also dislike the comments about her boobs sagging. Nothing wrong with a saggy boob and it's not an age related thing for lots of people. Some people have lower hanging boobs even when they're young.

[@ilikeyoutube7224]

I thought they wanted to make tiana more realistic. Without pinpoint hips and massive eyes, small nose. But shes supposed to be aged up? I thought she actually looked younger. Im blind af wth Thats cool theyre making her older and moving the story forward. I like tiana. Happy to see her getting more attention and the community shes for being happy with it

[@geassrailfantitan3414]

I think you might like this cartoon on paramount+ called ark the animated series, its not really related to body types but I like it and I think youll like it. protagonist is a WoC and queer and show has dinosaurs and sci fi elements

[@SkyXDNetwork]

Great video Harri! I'm with you that people need to stop making assumptions or having unrealistic standards about body types. I also heavily blame anime for only making those standards worse due to ridiculous amounts of "fanservice"

[@tyjordanflophour]

Aging is a gift, a privilege! Boobs are fat, they sag, gravity is real. Getting older is a beautiful thing. Sad so many people are scared of it

[@ronjaj.addams-ramstedt1023]

Aging sure beats the alternative!

[@ramenaddict1676]

I can't get over how cute you look in that hoodie!

[@KUREHA3D]

i love her accent so much lol. your videos are so relaxing for me. i love listening to you passionately talking about things. also we share the same nostalgia so thats a plus. excited for whatever you put out!!

[@Mushroomelixir]

Sorta kinda off topic but the people who hate on how they changed splash mountain to Tiana and complain about Tiana gaining weight are the reason I really wanna leave the Disney parks fandom tbh

[@harriyanna]

whats blowing me the most about tiana is that they complained about her weight gain despite the fight that SHE IS STILL SKINNY. she probably gained no more than like 12 pounds people are ANNOYING

[@Mushroomelixir]

@@harriyanna THISS!!! Shes about my size so she really isn't that big. Lottie also got a slight weight change, but I've seen nobody talk about that. The Disney parks fandom is annoying, and I really wish I didn't have a special interest in Disney parks. Can everyone just be like calm? For one second?

[@ajewishchristianmuslim]

16:28 a lot of people dont realize booty implants have been around since the 60s

[@heyitsnovaa]

Great video

[@jourdonpatron212]

I get what you're saying but nobody asked Thorn to be middle aged and a meth addict on Velma. The show purposely does things for satire to piss Scooby-Doo fans off. That's why people don't watch it.

[@harriyanna]

this was me simply responding to how nasty people were being about a middle age woman's appearance.

[@DDarkestKnight]

I don't know where you got this idea that Thorn does meth but Thorn is a rockstar, the biggest rockstars nowadays are getting old and their bodies age differently. And if Thorn is still a vegan this is how I'd expect her body to age after 25 years. Thumis isn't satire it's a normal woman, sorry she doesn't look like rule 34 material to you. They're not pissing anyone off, you made the conscious choice to be pissy about everything. You people make up *lies* just to find a reason to act pissy (calling a black girl a dog, fake subtitles, purposely mis-racing Velma). I'm an actual Hex Girl fan and the only problem I saw was that they say that Daphne's moms are Luna and Dusk.

[@jourdonpatron212]

@@harriyanna okay, yeah ageism is a problem.

[@jourdonpatron212]

@@DDarkestKnight Okay I skimmed thru this big ass essay. One of the writers made a joke about Thorn's drug use on Instagram and that's why I brought it up. Rule 34 Material? 1. Rule 34 of older ppl exist. 2. I'm asexual, IDK what angle you were trying to get at. LMAO I'm not pissed and I wasn't just talking about Thorn, I was encompassing everything the show did.

[@jourdonpatron212]

@@DDarkestKnight Also, Dusk and Luna being Daphne's mom is an interesting take considering Daphne herself was a Hex Girl. She went by the name Crush I believe.

[@battletimewitch9987]

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