The Untold What-If: Anne Boleyn's Miscarriage and the Alternate Tudor Timeline

[@dorothywillis1]

One point you touched on only lightly, but I think it is important. Anne was not Catherine. (I know I have said this before.) Catherine was older than Henry and grateful to him for taking her out of a bad situation by marrying her. Their marriage was a happy one largely because Catherine combined the functions of both wife and mother. She was a person Henry could go to for approval, to tell about his projects and plans, and above all to show off for. When Henry married Anne, I think he assumed she would "dwindle into a wife" and continue the functions he had received from the two previous important women in his life. But Anne was neither Elizabeth of York or Catherine of Aragon. She and Henry had battled and teased and maneuvered as equals for years. I think Anne didn't realize that she was supposed to turn into someone entirely different once she became Henry's wife. She kept on teasing and quarreling with him and, without either of them realizing why, it made him angry. If she had had a son she probably would have survived to a natural death, but I think the marriage would have been an unhappy one.

[@MariaPerryMohan-s6h]

I totally agree. As with many relationships, the scenario changes after marriage. I remember reading somewhere (in a meme, probably) that when a woman wonders why the man who gallantly courted her is such a washout as a husband, she is reminded that boyfriend/lover is an entertainment package while a husband is a programme.

[@GoddessIsismooniyaakeepASVeeno]

You were not there you don't know what you are talking about the marriage should never have happened the same evil envious demons that were there at that time is still around today he just wanted to use Anne

[@dorothywillis1]

@@GoddessIsismooniyaakeepASVeeno How can I argue with a goddess?

[@anneboleynfiles]

I think what attracted him to Anne later became unbearable.

[@AmaraJordanMusic]

What was attractive in a mistress was unbearable in a wife.

[@BlackCatMargie]

The hardest thing about 'what if' scenarios is thinking about all the variables involved. Anne's son would have needed to not only have survived birth, but also his youth. I think that even then, the boy would have been seen as having questionable legitimacy by the Catholic monarchies of Europe. He was conceived before Catherine of Aragon's death after all. If he had embraced protestantism, would there have been international plots to remove him as monarch, as there were against Elizabeth? Wars? Would he have had the same strength of character as his sister did in fending off enemies? So many factors. Thanks for a great discussion! ❤

[@anneboleynfiles]

Yes, so very many variables! Yes, perhaps there would have been plots against him, particularly if he'd been a staunch Protestant and/or persecuted Catholics.

[@tessat338]

Yes. That was the real reason for Anne's execution, to clear the decks of any questionable marriages and to give Henry space to conceive an unquestionably legitimate heir...as he did with Jane Seymore and Edward.

[@Shane-Flanagan]

Nice to see Claire's books on Anne Boleyn, George Boleyn and the Boleyns of Hever Castle pride of place in the background ❤

[@anneboleynfiles]

That's Tim! He always makes sure they're behind me!

[@Shane-Flanagan]

@@anneboleynfiles Product placement 🤣

[@thehistory_student]

A very interesting point to consider - was Anne concerned that Henry would be able to easily annul their marriage and cast her aside if it suited him? With the Catholic Church no longer having a say in his marriages, surely the thought must have crossed her mind. Another interesting video 🙏

[@anneboleynfiles]

I do think that Anne must have worried about this after Catherine's death. I think there was a lot preying on Anne's mind in early 1536.

[@pbohearn]

In a way by getting her husband to break from the Catholic Church, she left herself without any protection when he turned against her because there was no church, but his church, and they wouldn’t defend her.

[@wednesdayschild3627]

I agree. Making Henry head of his own church took away any sanction. Henry coild just do whatever he wanted. ​@@pbohearn

[@samanthafordyce5795]

Oddly enough, even in the 20th century, the CofE still held that marriage was indissoluble. That's what tripped up Princess Margaret and Peter Townsend. A church that was founded on the need for a divorce still held against divorce.

[@namelia4439]

I don’t think it really matters. He needed to get rid of Anne permanently, especially w Katherine dead, so that any subsequent marriages and children (especially boys) would be 100% legitimate and unquestionable in any way. He annulled their marriage before he murdered her, so they were technically never married…so how did she commit adultery against him? Didn’t matter. He needed her gone.

[@joiedevivre2005]

I love your videos. I know that your study has mostly dealt with English history. As an American descendant of Mary Boleyn, I would love if you did a video on her granddaughter, Anne Knowlys & how her sons were vital in the English establishment of the colony of Virginia, & thus the creation of the US. Three of Anne Knowlys West & Sir Thomas West's son's were among the first governors of Virginia (& the US state of Delaware is named for her son, Thomas).

[@anneboleynfiles]

How wonderful to have that connection to the Boleyns! I do envy you! Oh, it would be interesting to delve into that, but my specialism really is Tudor England. I do love the Knollys family though.

[@rynctv]

Omg I’m related to those families! How nice to know there is a good chance I’m a descendant of Mary Boleyn.

[@Bellarose-r8u]

One of your bests,Claire. Im a huge tudor geek and im obsessed with the tudors, i've seen the tv show the tudors and i can imagine it, anne giving birth a boy,the joy and hope she feels, how happy and guilty Henry feels later, Its so fasinating

[@pamelamorgan7354]

Excellent video. I’ve often thought how different history would be if either Queen Katherine of Queen Anne had a male child. Thank you.

[@anneboleynfiles]

Thank you!

[@dineyashworth8578]

I think most likely since Anne was still young if he didn't murder her she most likely would have eventually had some living sons.

[@lazygardens]

Katherine of Aragon did have sons ... Henry, Duke of Cornwall. Born January 1, 1511, died February 22, 1511. And another in 1513, born premature and died soon after.

[@dineyashworth8578]

think they meant living sons not ones that died. Anne Boleyn had a son too that died because she went into labor too early. @@lazygardens

[@joanrankin2827]

I really enjoyed this "what-if"! The impact of one event can have such ripples in history that spread out through generations.

[@anneboleynfiles]

Thank you!

[@Turefu2]

Claire, I’m very pleased to see your videos again, you’re amazing!

[@teresaann7773]

I love all of your videos. I miss my daily dose of finding out what happened "Today in Tudor Times". (Hint: it was never compfy cozy in those days!) Several of my friends and I were discussing at our little "Tudor Gathering" and happened to mention that we were wondering about your delightful fur babies. How are they all doing? I do hope that they are all doing well. Hello to Tim and all of the family. Happiest of New Years, and may God bless you.

[@anneboleynfiles]

I'm so glad you enjoy my videos. Thank you for asking about the furry members of our family. We lost Boni, our eldest dog last year, to bladder cancer, which was incredibly sad. The cats Maj, Ari and Oreo are all well, as are the dogs Judd, Pippa and Teasel. And Tim and our kids are fine too, thank you, and God bless you too.

[@suzannejones5992]

Glad you are back, missed seeing your videos❤

[@charlieryskamp344]

Claire, in 1591, if the boy had lived to be king and reached the age of Hviii, Elizabeth (I) would have still have been his FULL sister! 🧐

[@AndriaBieberDesigns]

It really makes an interesting point when you think how the baby lived, and if they had other children, think of all the people that wouldn’t have died

[@elizabethmayrose8521]

All these horrible deaths make me so sad. I come down through the Bourchier and Stanhope lines. My many times G-Grandfather, Elizabeth Tilney married Humphrey Bourchier first. After his death, she married into the Howard family. Hence, Elizabeth was the grandmother of Anne Boleyn and Katherine Howard. So there is a bond there, I think. I feel a real connection to Anne and Katherine. I hope this doesn’t sound silly, but I really do mourn for them. I mourn for all who died by Henry’s command. I’m also related to the Dudley family and we all know how many Dudley men were executed. Strangely, I felt only good feelings when my husband and I visited Hampton Court Palace, last summer. May Anne, Katherine and those afore mentioned men, dwell happily with God. It is right to honor our ancestors, though. They are not forgotten.

[@anneboleynfiles]

Yes, so many needless deaths.

[@idgriffin56]

Wonderful presentation full of fact and pragmatic speculation. Thoroughly enjoyable.

[@Shane-Flanagan]

Thank you Claire ❤ Interesting and thought provoking as always.... Wow that image of an elderly Anne Boleyn is certainly a sight to behold, maybe not the most flattering but good to see Anne maintaining her style 👑 💎 👸

[@anneboleynfiles]

Tim completely surprised me with that! I didn't even see the video and thumbnail image until just now!

[@Shane-Flanagan]

@@anneboleynfiles Techie Tim strikes again ⚡⚡ ⚡

[@thrumylenns2207]

I don't know why the story breaks my heart so much, it just seems so unfair how Anne Boleyn was treated. Looking back through history it seems like she was very loyal to her husband and loved him very much but did not get that favor returned 😢

[@traceyboswell]

I completely agree

[@elizabethwoolnough4358]

If Anne had given Henry a son or sons, and had then survived Henry, I wonder what would have happened to Mary Tudor after Henry's death. Would she have still considered Anne's sons illegitimate and herself rightful heir, and if so, would she have dared to try to claim the throne?

[@KristenK78]

It would depend on whether the boy(s) survived childhood. If they did, they would have inherited ahead of Mary. Whether or not Mary or Elizabeth became queen would depend on whether the boy had time to marry and have children of his own.

[@junipercats2472]

In this scenario I wonder if Henry would have found husbands for Mary and Elizabeth especially if there was a spare or two. I've often entertained the idea that Henry had a conspiracy theory that Katherine was only supposed to produce a daughter so that she could marry the male heir to the Spanish throne and thus put England under Spanish control. Katherine, or someone in her court, could have used some method to cause miscarriages if a boy was suspected or premature deaths if one was born. When Anne miscarried twice it might have seemed to him that she was also part of the conspiracy, especially since she was one of Katherine's ladies. Of course, I doubt if that happened at all and I like what you said about his fears over his own mortality driving him to have a son and his belief that his marriage wasn't blessed since he took his brother's wife.

[@tri5ia]

I’ve just found this channel and I’m hooked. It occurs to me that if Henry and Anne had had a son who grew to adulthood and had sons of his own, James VI of Scotland would not have become the King of England. It is possible that Scotland would have continued as a nation state all the way down to our own times. If the Tudor dynasty had lasted as long as the Plantagenets, there would have been no Stuart kings, no House of Hanover and no Victoria. Wow! Interesting snippet - I read that Catherine, Princess of Wales is a descendant of Mary Boleyn.

[@O.O.O.K999]

I have always wondered if she REALLY wanted to marry Henry, if the 'no sex unless we are married' was to keep him at arms length because she knew - or thought she knew - he couldn't divorce Catherine of Aragon. I also think it a glorious comeuppance that his precious son amounted to nothing (feel sorry for him that he died) but his unwanted daughter Elizabeth came to be the greatest monarch this country ever had.

[@lianhorvat5744]

Very interesting video! I've always been fascinated by alternate timeline ideas. It's just fascinating to imagine how much history could have been changed just from one change. Queen Anne had a healthy son, the Titanic didn't sink, etc...opens the door for awesome stories to be written!

[@nasourex]

Dear Claire, do you know what was Anne’s and Mary Tudor, Queen of France’s relationship was like. I see lots of misinformation without any sources on social media! By the way amazing video as usual

[@-Reagan]

Very interesting discussion topic! I always enjoy your videos and speculation, as well as your loyalty and empathy to women who were subject to the social and gender constructs of their birth, era and stations and, who have been given short shrift by many historians.

[@BeeKool__113]

Very interesting possible outcomes. Ultimately, the greatest gift Anne gave to Henry, England and the world was her daughter, Elizabeth. ❤👑📖🤔

[@mariannenielsen425]

A very interesting viewpoint and as always based on a lot of research. Thank you for sharing this very interesting video. Its a joy

[@MareaSmele-s7k]

Love your new look! Ver interesting idea! Thanks 🇨🇦

[@jaclyn1755]

I wonder what Queen Elizabeth would of wanted in an alternate history if she were presented with these options (now, I know from the other side). Would she want a brother and all that could of come with saving her mother's life or history as it played out, which against all odds she became Gloriana.

[@darlenefarmer5921]

I do like these "what ifs"....certainly food for thought. Thanks

[@anneboleynfiles]

Thank you!

[@mandygray764]

This was very interesting....thank you Claire

[@anneboleynfiles]

You’re welcome 😊

[@livesouthernable]

My own belief is that having a son would have saved her life, but not her relationship. The king was tiring of her. She wasn’t queenly in his eyes. She didn’t defer to him or take care of him the way Catherine had. He was still bringing his shirts to Catherine to mend for him, even while divorcing her. Anne was exciting and alluring, but not comfortable, and not respectful. I think he’d have probably stayed married to her, but eventually would have moved her out of prominence, so he didn’t have to hear her opinions so often. If he hadn’t made, in his own mind, a saint out of the dead Jane Seymour, he might have learned to miss Catherine in the end. Just my opinion.

[@ruthsteen6943]

He wouldn't have risked illegitemising a living son of Anne's, so he would have stayed married to her but probably taken mistresses. But she would have been safe as long as her son was alive.

[@livesouthernable]

@@ruthsteen6943 I agree. When I say “moved out of prominence,” I mean he would have taken up with mistresses and stopped coming “home” at night. 😂 That being said, she would still be queen, with all the perks that came with the title.

[@Lyndell-P]

🇭🇲 You covered everything perfectly in this "what if" Anne Boleyn's and King Henry VIII's son had in fact been born a healthy baby boy and 'lived' to become King himself, etc etc. While also noting that the men (including Anne's brother) would Not have been executed either, and (in fact) remained influencial in diplomatic circles, during the reign of King Henry VIII, and maybe even in the reign of his nephew, after King Henry VIII's death. I've no doubt that (Henry being Henry) would have had affairs, but he would have remained married to Anne Boleyn. HOWEVER! I have another "what if" that involves YOU personally Claire, and even your career! I hope you don't mind?! Here goes: As you have mentioned previously, one of the very real reasons that you set upon the career course that you (and Tim) did WAS due to a dream/nightmare (feeling very real to you at the time) of you 'witnessing' (or being there) when Anne Boleyn was executed, and you just knew (in your dream, and after waking up) that Anne was innocent, and you wished to investigate further. This being ONE of the 'many' reasons that The Anne Boleyn Files and the Tudor Society was formed in the first place. So even your own 'path in life' might have been different, had Anne Boleyn 'never' faced execution, but lived. Just a thought, and I could (of course) be 'way off track' with this thinking Claire, but such a dream/nightmare HAS been mentioned by you many times. So (in my mind's eye) even your own destiny has been influenced by what happened to Anne Boleyn. YOUR videos are always excellent and never boring, and so very thought provoking, which (of course) is the whole point - isn't it? For us to put on our thinking caps - and think what might have been. "Thank you" Claire and hoping that you, Tim, and your family are all well. With much love sent (to you and yours) from me, Lyndell xx 💓🫂

[@Shane-Flanagan]

Great question Lyndell 🤗 Yes Anne Boleyn, Claire's historical heroine seems to have touched Claire's life greatly, Claire dreamt of Anne's execution, Claire set up a website and KZbin channel all things Boleyn and Tudor, Claire has written several books about Anne and her family, Anne has inspired Claire personally in life and Claire has got Anne Boleyn themed tattoos. It would be hard for Claire now to imagine a life so uninfluenced by Anne Boleyn I would say. ☘️ 🇮🇪 ☘️ 🇮🇪 ☘️ 🇮🇪 ☘️

[@anneboleynfiles]

Oooh, yes, that's an interesting side to the what-if! Yes, perhaps I'd be doing something completely different. I wonder if another historical character would have grabbed me in the some way. An interesting though. Thank you, Lyndell, and I hope you and Bob are doing ok x

[@tonyalogan5095]

I enjoy the what if... I would love for you to do a what if Mary Queen of Scots & Queen E I had worked together. Thanks for another great video

[@anneboleynfiles]

Oh yes, if only Elizabeth had helped Mary get her throne back and formed an alliance between England and Scotland!

[@elizabethwoolnough4358]

​@@anneboleynfilesI think Elizabeth would have liked that if only Mary hadn't been so keen to take Elizabeth's throne and life. I really doubt that if Mary had captured Elizabeth, she would have allowed her to live.

[@marilynpenner9196]

Good reasons and good information presented. I don't know if Anne Boleyn would have been as great an influence as you intimated she would have been if her son had lived to be born. She certainly would have kept her influence with Henry because she would have be the woman who gave him the heir he wanted. She would have been untouchable. But I don't think she would had Henry's ear in every policy. He needed the money from the monasteries for his own defense projects, and for presenting a great image of himself. Anne wanted the money to be spent on education, and since she was patronizing Evangelical priests, she would have wanted to sponsor a reformed education, because that was what they and Cranmer wanted. But Henry was not a reformer in religion. He was a traditional Catholic in belief. He did not want Catherine Parr teaching him his religion, and when Bishop Gardiner suggested that Catherine and her ladies be searched and questioned about Anne Askew and about what books they read, Henry was all in favour of it. Henry may have used the dropped arrest warrant merely to frighten the Queen into obedience, but he did not want Katherine to take her own reformed way. He did not threaten Cranmer, whom he knew was a reformer, but he did not want women to meddle with his church - and think that held true with Anne and the monasteries. He was not going to listen to his wife on religion. He told Jane Seymour to "think of the fate of Anne" when she asked him to preserve a monastery. Anne was not a docile person. She quarreled with Henry, and did not respect or defer to him as her king or as a superior being. She may have treated him as a man, like Wallis Simpson treated the Prince of Wales without deference. Henry playing the lovelorn suitor begging for a favour was a new role for Henry, who liked disguise and playing parts in masques, but he was not going to make his wife his equal partner if he did not want that script. He was the director and playwright. Anne was a Francophile, and Henry sought an alliance with the Emperor after Katherine of Aragon's death, on his own terms, but he wanted Charles as his friend. He had always seen Francis as a sneering rival. That's why Henry wanted Chapuys to meet Anne. Chapuys was known as Katherine's champion. If Chapuys made a gesture toward Anne as Queen, then it would signal that the feud between England and the Empire was over and the Emperor would not go to war to avenge his aunt. It would be a triumph for Anne, but it also meant that Henry need not fight for her honour either. He did not need to feel he was stuck protecting Anne. He could find a more agreeable wife who could give him a son and stay out of telling him how to rule England. Of course if Anne had not miscarried, she would have been secure as Queen, but in April 1536, Henry might have wanted to be rid of her. But he wanted to be rid of her without hurting his repute as a chivalrous knight. Being seen as a good knight meant a lot to him. Henry put a lot on outward show. By siding with the Emperor, he was formally abandoning the pact he made with Francjs in 1532-33 to support France if Francis supported his marriage to Anne.

[@BevMattocks]

Jane Grey would have lived a long and studious life, too.

[@MariaPerryMohan-s6h]

Claire, I feel that it was the biggest tragedy that there was persecution of Catholics by Protestants and vice versa. People speak disparagingly of 'Bloody Mary', but Henry and Elizabeth were every bit as 'bloody' in my humble opinion. Especially Henry. Anne Boleyn seems to me to have created several problems for herself. The fact that Queen Catherine didn't go quietly means that Henry would have dreaded the thought of the feisty Anne as an ex-wife. Queen Catherine was a permanent thorn in Henry's side until her death. Secondly, the proposal of dismissing Anne to a nunnery was impossible. Many convents had been closed down under the Protestant reforms. Protestant Anne in a nunnery? Or evangelical Anne as you have pointed out many times. It doesn't fit at all. A convent might have suited Catherine to some extent, but not Anne.

[@keiththorpe9571]

That's a very interesting speculative path down which to travel. Extrapolating outward from that, who might this Tudor/Boleyn heir have gone on to marry? A foreign princess, or might he have taken a page out of his father's book and married one of his subjects (as Henry VIII married four such)? How would the late 16th and early 17th centuries be altered in Europe, assuming such a Tudor dynasty continued beyond Henry VIII's son and included a grandson or even a great-grandson succeeding to the throne? One question I'm fascinated by (being a writer myself): would the English literary tradition established by the likes of Jonson, Marlowe, and Shakespeare have evolved in quite the same way, absent the Elizabethan Golden Age in which they flourished in our world? Much to consider...

[@GiftSparks]

12:32- The hypothetical son would have been Elizabeth’s full brother (not half-brother) since both Anne and Henry were also his parents.

[@anneboleynfiles]

Yes, apologies, I got a bit confused at that point lol!

[@megmcguirt647]

I don't remember if you've covered it elsewhere, but what did any foreign sources or the Catholic Church say about the jousting accident and how bad it may have been?

[@eveywrens]

I wonder what role Thomas Cromwell would play if Anne Boleyn had a son. Great video as always!

[@teresaann7773]

Very interesting thought!

[@geralyniannaccone8586]

He may not have been executed either.

[@anneboleynfiles]

Yes, and I wonder if he would have worked with Anne or whether they would have carried on falling out.

[@christinestudley3982]

I’m having a cold wet afternoon watching your videos, your such a gift. I agree Ann was against the dissolution of the monasteries for royal profit and it could have turned out different, even the subject’s would be happy for their king and could have softened a bit toward Ann. I feel for all Ann’s bravado at times, she really wanted to be loved.

[@helkatww3992]

Someone has probably already mentioned this in a comment, but Lady Jane Grey wouldn't have been put in the awful position she found herself in either. She and her husband Guilford Dudley would probably have survived and gone on to have children of their own

[@bexp436]

Some fascinating “what-ifs”. Great video😊

[@anneboleynfiles]

Thank you!

[@ChristChickAutistic]

Hi Claire, it's wild that you made a video about this, as I've often wondered what would have happened if Anne had had a boy myself. It would definitely been a Butterfly Effect kind of thing, lol! I mean, exploration of my neck of the globe, America, started under Queen Elizabeth I, and if Anne had had a boy, would he have been interested in the New World, or would I be speaking Spanish or French instead of English? Actually, since my home was part of the Louisiana Purchase, probably French. I'm Catholic anyway, so that wouldn't be a problem, even though I'm not a very good Catholic, lol! I love the Tudor Age, mainly because of the interesting women. Funny that a guy obsessed with having a boy is mainly remembered because of his women.😂😂😂 I've often wished that the Doctor would choose me as a companion so I could go tell Fat Hank that it's his fault that he couldn't have a boy,lol! Oh, I'd be well armed, lol, just in case! It's fun to speculate! You do a great job! ❤

[@anneboleynfiles]

Yes, Henry would not be impressed to know that it wasn't his wives' fault!

[@ChristChickAutistic]

@@anneboleynfiles Hence being well armed with lots of modern weapons, lol!

[@elizabethwoolnough4358]

Kidnap him, bring him to the 21st century so he could see what history thinks of him and his legacy.

[@alancumming6407]

A really interesting and enjoyable 'what if'. It would certainly have eliminated any possibility of a Seymour powerbase. However I am not certain the Howards would have retreated into the shadows. The Pilgrimage of Grace coupled with a more robust foreign opposition to Henry's religious position would have placed a great strain on the monarch due to the increased threat of domestic rebellion alongside the potential risk of losing overseas trade. I doubt Anne would be swayed in her religious beliefs, which made me wonder - despite providing a male heir, would it really be enough to secure her tenure as Queen? As it appears Henry viewed his wives as disposal the moment they became liabilities, coupled with the fact the Boleyn's enemies who had so successfully removed both George and Anne would still be present at court, it crossed my mind that 'heir' or 'no heir' - Henry might just rid himself of Anne anyway.

[@sassytbc7923]

Interesting video Claire

[@ruthgoebel723]

I never looked at this subject in this way. Very interesting indeed!

[@SlightlySusan]

I think your analysis of the alternative is logical and meshes with how many people feel about Anne and Henry. There fore, your analysis is both serious and possible. On the other hand, because Henry's legitimate son died young, the boy's half sisters presented two possible examples of Queens Regnant. I do not believe that Mary is popular but Elizabeth continues to fascinate. We might speculate that Elizabeth helped open doors for other women who could be Queens Regnant.

[@brigidmartin]

History would never know of the 9 days queen

[@heatherwaetzig2633]

Hi Claire, What non-fiction books would you recommend on Anne Boleyn?

[@anneboleynfiles]

I love Eric Ives' "The Life and Death of Anne Boleyn", and I've written a few! My favourite of mine is "The Fall of Anne Boleyn: A Countdown". John Guy and Julia Fox's "Hunting the Falcon" is also excellent.

[@heatherwaetzig2633]

@@anneboleynfiles Thank-you so much! I will check those out.

[@andrewfisk5100]

Very fascinating What If's here. If Anne's son had lived and became heir/king then maybe the reformation and dissolution of the monasteries wouldn't have been so severe. I've always thought it so sad to see the destroyed and ruined abbeys and what a glorious sight they must have been. Also, have you made a video on Anne's mysterious pregnancy of 1534? My major debate is the pregnancy of Mary I, always dismissed as being a phantom pregnancy but from the evidence I've researched I believe she actually was pregnant but suffered a 'missed miscarriage' and at the end of April 1555 passed a mass of flesh which was the remains of the dead foetus. What do you believe Claire?

[@LS-mp7co]

Interestingly Henry secured the fate of the Tudor line the minute he had Anne executed. Anne's daughter Elisabeth would be so untrusting of men that she never married and I believe that there was a hefty dose of satisfaction in being the one that ended her father's precious Tudor line. She never seemed concerned that her line would move to another branch on the family tree at her death. That seemed by design.

[@patriciasaldanha7243]

As always , I take great pleasure in watching your videos, which you make , I am sure , with utmost and admirable passion and sensitivity. Yes Henry's jousting accident could have been a contributing factor in the loss of the baby. Much as I would have liked Anne to be spared from that ill-fated rendezvous with death ,I feel.that when the die is cast, it is cast! What if? Whenever I said (to my grandfather) "Suppose,...if... but ..etc , he "d say (Child ) you but me no buts".And that was that ! Perhaps Elizabeth was the son Henry so desired for many a fretful year! Voilà.Thank you ,Claire , for your work! Your videos are both informative and entertaining 🍃♥️💮

[@-Reagan]

I’ll preface this by saying this is purely 100% speculation: I do wonder at the timing of the miscarriage and whether she had already miscarried and hidden that fact - along with her family advisors - until they had a good reason to excuse her, rather than starting rumors about her ability to carry a pregnancy to term. It would have caused more derision to Henry’s choice to marry her and she was already blamed for causing his separation from the church. A miscarriage at that time wouldn’t have been good for anyone. It put everyone’s stability at stake. However, the time would soon come when they had to announce it, if she couldn’t get pregnant again, immediately. Perhaps they decided to stall for time. Rather than announce the miscarriage to everyone when there was no other distraction, in which it would have been the main issue. When Anne could not conceive immediately and then, Henry took his fall in joust, it was seized upon as a convenient excuse that wouldn’t fault Anne. Again, this is all speculation that might be allayed with a little research to see what other factors were in play at the time.

[@tracys169]

What if Queen Catherine's and King Henry's boy actually grew up to adulthood? Will Henry still marry Anne? With the 'pressure' of having an heir off their shoulders, I doubt that the English reformation would happen during that time... BUT. If Catherine died in 1536, it is likely that Anne (IF she's still free) might end up being his wife? The thing is, Anne was desirable, if Henry didn't turn her into his mistress, she likely would be engaged and married way before 1536, the only time they would get married is if Anne was widowed about the same time as Henry (not impossible, ppl died young all the time at that time). Then, in this alternate timeline, Elizabeth might not be born or be born very late. If Anne is not widowed (so she's got a husband- because i can't see her not marrying, unlike Jane Seymour, Anne seemed to be rather popular), I see Jane Seymour marrying Henry possibly and died after childbirth...so Henry would get an heir and a spare...

[@LusiaEyre]

I think the only reason why Anne, as sentenced for treason, was to avoid the repeat of Catherine's defiance. Catherine being alive was a shadow over Henry and Anne's marriage and kept her supporters' fervour alive and well. He couldn’t have known if Anne would've gone quietly (like later Anne of Cleves) or if her family wouldn't make a stink. In a narcissistic way, getting rid of Anne permanently and in a showy way was the easiest way to be really free to marry again and maybe this way make a marriage that pleased God enough to grant Henry sons. When Henry married Jane, he was an undisputed widower and could marry again in any faiths' rules on such things. If Anne of C wasn't so full of self-preservation, she would probably be stuck with charges for being a foreign spy or something.

[@lisap3652]

There are so many ‘what ifs’ in Henry’s reign & I find it fascinating. I wonder if Anne would still have been so jealous of Henry’s mistresses if she’d had a healthy boy & felt more secure. I’m not sure because infant mortality was so high in those days that she would still have been under pressure to have more sons/spares 🤔

[@annjohnson6193]

Henry and Anne were married only about 3 years. Then 2 miscarriages. If they’d stayed married, Anne probably would have had more living children

[@anneboleynfiles]

Yes, I think so.

[@sixeses]

I read The Boleyn King trilogy by Laura Anderssen. Interesting enough. Thanks Claire

[@anneboleynfiles]

I didn't like her portrayal of George Boleyn, but I did think the concept was an interesting one.

[@sixeses]

Same here Claire@@anneboleynfiles

[@AmaraJordanMusic]

I wish people would write more alternative history like that. It’s such an interesting idea and certainly dramatic!

[@katherinecollins4685]

Great video

[@greybeardcanadian1036]

As I listened to your video it occurred to me that Lady Jane Grey would also never have had her 9 days on the throne, or been executed. And Im not sure about the relative ages, but perhaps she would have been deemed a suitable match for the son of Anne Boleyn, and wound up queen eventually anyway!

[@anneboleynfiles]

Lady Jane Grey is believed to have been born in 1537, so perhaps so.

[@ianmacdonald9932]

A very interesting hypothesis. My thoughts are that history would have followed a similar path just replacing Anne’s son for the actual one of Jane Seymour. So I suspect Henry would have come under the increased influence of the Howard/Boleyn faction especially as he aged & thought about a young son succeeding him. Norfolk was the most powerful noble even after Anne’s fall, I suspect Catherine Howard may have been put forward as a possible mistress in later years to help secure The Duke’s position. Thomas Boleyn was beholden on his brother-in-law & while a grandson as heir may have raised him higher he wasn’t as high born so wouldn’t have had widespread support amongst the Court & wider nobility. It’s possible he & his son, George could have competed around a young king with Norfolk too trying to become protector just as the Seymour’s did with Edward VI? How much influence Anne would have had is unclear much could have depended on her influence with her son & the powerful men like Cramer & Cromwell if the sided with her. Both were self-made so perhaps are likely to have had more in common with the Boleyns than the Howards? By contemporary accounts Norfolk was proud, haughty man so I’m sure he had & made many enemies at Court. He was also at heart a Catholic & that may have counted against him if the Boleyn king was a strong Protestant (like Edward VI). It’s also possible that if he had died without a male heir that the Charles V or Philip II would have supported Mary against Elizabeth in a contest for the throne. It’s likely the Mary/Philip marriage would have been planned if they were successful. Would Mary have died in 1558 if she hadn’t of married? Possibly if her death wasn’t linked to pregnancy not just cancer. Which is unclear from what we know. Would Elizabeth have been married off by her brother? Likely if he had an heir or saw Mary as a real threat as the Catholic claimant. Lots of possibilities come to mind.

[@tessat338]

If Anne and Henry had had a son, and he lived beyond his birth, it would have vindicated everything that Henry had done up to that point. After that, everything is still up for grabs. Henry and Catherine's son didn't live beyond the first few weeks of his life and none of Henry's other known sons lived to see twenty. It could have just have easily been Anne who died in childbirth instead of Jane and then we'd have been back where we were at the end of 1536, just without all of her co-accused being executed.

[@tamarapetersen3779]

This is definitely an interesting what if? If Anne had had a son who survived and thrived and became king, there are many knock on effects to consider. Although Mary would have still been considered illegitimate her connection to the Spanish royals and the Holy Roman Emperor, would likely have garnered her a decent political match, much earlier in her life. That being the case she'd have likely had children. Elizabeth being the eldest legitimate daughter, and full sister to a future king, would have made her extremely valuable as a political bride. It is possible then that a match could have been made between England and France, making Elizabeth a Queen of France. If that eventuality occurred then that leaves Mary of Scots without a possible groom I the French royals. But given the Rough Wooing that actually occurred I could see Henry trying to make a match between his Boleyn male heir and Mary, thus making his son King in Scotland and uniting the two countries earlier.

[@anneboleynfiles]

Oh that IS interesting to consider who Elizabeth would have married. Thank you.

[@AITrademarket]

Would there even have been a union of the crowns of Scotland and England, as in no James I had Anne and her son survived?

[@Sarmatae1]

Not to put too fine a point on it, but if Catherine of Valois had stayed out of the steward's assistant's pants, none of it would ever have happened at all. Same outcome, I think, if John of Gaunt or Miss Swynford had, between them, even a shred of dignity. That being said, I believe Anne having a son would have changed nothing at all. Anne was too cocky and outspoken. Giving Henry his Prince of Wales would have made her more so as she became certain in her position. Her arrogance and temper would eventually have landed her on the same scaffold. The people executed with her may have changed, and the succession of Henry's wives may have changed...but I genuinely believe Henry would have found a way to rid himself of her once he grew tired of her, whether she gave him a son or no. And if Henry didn't, Cromwell would have.

[@actchickcee]

I hve often wondered about this. It could have had a profound impact on how things progressed in English history. I mean really, the civil war may not have even happened, and it could still be the Tudor dynasty on the throne today. We'll never know, but it's an interesting thing to consider.

[@AnneFoggensteiner]

The birth of a healthy son would have saved her. There would possibly have been less religious turmoil as Mary would not succeed and Edward would not have been born. As to the effectiveness of any son who reached adulthood and succeeded his Father it remains an unknown. However Elizabeth was intelligent and a successful monarch.

[@rabbitsrule9437]

I would think he was very much a king in personality wanted someone to adore him but the relationship wasn’t based on friendship also his mother had died in an attempt to get another boy after Arthur died. His own mother was the sister of the princes in the tower and the war of roses was not long before. A couple of generations which wasn’t long in those days. The weird thing is he didn’t wait that long to get rid. Her enemies were around her

[@caroleleather5551]

Yes, and lady Jane grey would not have been queen for 9 days and executed so sad so young

[@--enyo--]

Oh, this is a really interesting one.

[@anneboleynfiles]

Thank you!

[@Cypresssina]

Maybe Jane Grey wouldnt have been forced to marry Dudley. It's nice thinking that she might have lived. It's sad thinking that there would never have been Queen Elizabeth I. Would her hypothetical brother have been like his father? Worse?

[@dineyashworth8578]

didn't know was explored in fiction! I might like that! Perhaps Anne and Mary would have become close too in that timeline.

[@janethequeen1]

Also Lady Jane Grey would not have died 😢

[@SyIe12]

👍⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ ❤I love your videos.❤ Excellent video. I’ve often thought how different history would be if either Queen Katherine of Queen Anne had a male child. Thank you.

[@anneboleynfiles]

Glad you enjoyed it!

[@jayfroehlich7954]

Would Anne have been able to divorce Henry? What if she had claimed that she wished to step down because of all her miscarriages and that she, as Queen, was unable to carry a son for England?

[@anneboleynfiles]

I'm not sure there was a precedent for a queen stepping down but I'm sure Henry would have agreed to an annulment had she expressed that desire.

[@bonniewilsoncarlson]

I was a bit confused by you referring to Anne as Queen Consort. I have always understood Anne, like Catherine of Aragon before her, to have been a true queen having been crowned i her own coronation ceremony. I know all of Henry's later wives were merely consorts having never had a coronation.

[@Lyndell-P]

"Hello" 👋 and good point Bonnie! However, even today's Queen Camilla, although crowned (when King Charles III was crowned) is a Queen Consort, BUT referred to as HRH Queen Camilla, when introduced in public, in publications, or in books etc etc. So Claire referring to Queen Anne as Queen Consort was also correct. Hope this clears this up! I also hope I'm correct! 😉🤗😊

[@bonniewilsoncarlson]

Thank you for clarifying! @@Lyndell-P

[@Lyndell-P]

@@bonniewilsoncarlson You are most "welcome" Bonnie. Only hope I'm correct, but if not, I'm sure that Claire (herself) will clarify too! "ENJOY" your day/night, from Lyndell

[@janewhite2331]

Someone who inherits in their own right, is a queen (or king) regnant, ie they rule by right. Their spouse is queen (or king) only because of whom they married. Queen Elizabeth the mother of the late queen Elizabeth II was a queen consort. Her daughter queen Elizabeth was queen regnant. Camilla is a consort as will Katherine be in her turn as their queenhood rests entirely on whom they wed.

[@anneboleynfiles]

A queen consort or king consort is the spouse of the reigning monarch and has nothing to do with them having a coronation. A queen regnant, like Mary I and Elizabeth I, is a reigning queen. Hope that helps.

[@kathleenstoin671]

Do you think that there is a possibility that Anne was Rh negative? Usually a first pregnancy is OK, but subsequent pregnancies often fail because the fetus is Rh positive.

[@tanyarobinson1146]

Pregnancy doesn't necessarily fail but it does effect the baby and mortality after birth.

[@kathleenstoin671]

@tanyarobinson1146 Let me explain my theory. Rh negative mothers can be treated with Rho-Gam now, but not in the 16th century. Miscarriages can happen when an Rh negative mother is carrying an Rh positive fetus, but not in the first pregnancy, when the fetal blood crosses the placenta and enters the mother's bloodstream. Her body then develops antibodies against Rh positive blood. Subsequent pregnancies are at serious risk because of that, when those antibodies get into the Rh positive fetal bloodstream and cause the fetal blood to break down, sometimes causing fetal death or stillbirths. That's why I wonder if Anne might have been affected, because Elizabeth was healthy, but subsequent pregnancies were lost. Now, of course, there are preventive measures and treatments, and pregnancy loss because of Rh incompatibility is rare in developed countries. Some think Anne had her miscarriage because of the stress from Henry's accident, but I don't believe that even severe stress can be a significant cause of miscarriage, as many women experience extreme stress in pregnancy. Of course, we'll never know. But I still think Rh incompatibility could be a factor.

[@AnneFoggensteiner]

I agree that this was a real possibility.

[@giraffequeen9437]

What if Anne had given birth to her son, he had lived (and continued to live into adulthood) but she died the way Jane Seymore did?

[@ltyrell75]

If the son lived, having other children may not have been stressful for Anne and she may have gone on to have 3 more successfully living children. Maybe should would have died giving birth to that son instead and Henry marries Jane, and now he has and heir and spare and if Jane still end up dying, he wouldn't rush to marry again.

[@Ccamero123]

I always wondered if Catherine Of Aragon had sons that lived?

[@belladingdong3396]

Can I submit a tudor-adjacent what-if? What if Henry Tudor had been the one to die at the battle of bosworth and not Richard III?

[@UtahGmaw99]

Jane Seymore might have had her son but he would have been a bastard. To sum up the Tudors. Oh what a wicked web we weave! I do so love history! Thanks for all your hard work. I have been following you for years and have your books. Love them!

[@anneboleynfiles]

Oh that's true! Henry could well have had more illegitimate children. Thank you so much for following and supporting what I do.

[@AmaraJordanMusic]

I read a trilogy about if Anne’s son lived. It was interesting especially to see how it would impact Elizabeth. I’d love to find more reads like that. Yayyy it got shouted out! 😅

[@lemongrabloids3103]

You have no idea how much I daydream about this subject 😅 I also imagine if Arthur never died too.

[@janettetaylor8760]

Both the late queen Elizabeth 2nd and Catherine middle were related to Mary boylne children

[@Ccamero123]

I believe the Tudors were paranoid because there were so many people that had a better claim to the throne then them.

[@genna2586]

Pretty interesting scenario and to add to this mix probably Mary Queen of Scots would not have been executed.

[@traceyleeherrera5247]

I wonder if Anne had a healthy son that survived to ascend the throne he may have arranged a diplomatic marriage for Elizabeth & she may have been queen of another country and had royal children in another kingdom I do enjoy what if's 😊

[@BevMattocks]

"The Church IN England" 👏👏👏 So many people get that wrong and say "of".

[@kartos.]

History would be so different because of the possibility of Elizabeth never ascending the throne.

[@maureenroland9895]

Henry sure liked to pick and choose his bible verses to suit himself. Leviticus does forbid a man to marry his brother's wife, but only if his brother is still living. This is why John the Baptist accused Herod of sinning by marrying his sister-in-law while his brother was still alive. (Matthew 14:3,4) However, in Deuteronomy 25:5, it specifically requires a man to marry his brother's childless widow in order to raise up children on his behalf. This is why in the Book of Ruth, Boaz had to ensure the man who was a closer relation to Naomi formally refused to marry Ruth before he could marry her himself. (Ruth 4:5)

[@Boudica_Boo_Keltoi]

Elizabeth would have married Leicester, I think for sure.

[@traceyboswell]

Did Anne Boleyn miscarry, because she was poisoned? After all.. The Seymours ( Jane Seymour) had access to Queen Anne’s food at all tines.. as did MANY of Anne’s enemies.. ( i.e. Eustasys Chapys)

[@alisonmcnamara800]

He would never have remarried if he had a son. He may have put her in a tower! He could do anything else he wanted anyway!

[@1234cheerful]

Good on you Tim! Pride in your work, Claire! Show off your credentials a little. You don't even have links in your description to Amazon! Very acamemic of you. (Lady C puts a link for every single one but she is on a different path so to speak).

[@monikahasch7441]

..and what would happened if he just accepted not having a male heir?..Would we have had a fight over succession between Elisabeth and Mary, which was declared illegitimate?..and in his last will it was first his son, than Mary than Elisabeth (if everthing goes wrong) his successos...he accepted a female ruler in the end so "much to do about nothing" and many people beheaded 🤷‍♀️ 😅

[@SF-ru3lp]

Fascinating to imagine. G Ire

[@samanthafordyce5795]

Deuteronomy 25:5 says: If brethren dwell together, and one of them die, and have no child, the wife of the dead shall not marry without unto a stranger: her husband's brother shall go in unto her, and take her to him to wife, and perform the duty of an husband's brother unto her. The quotation above is from the King James Version. Below is from the Douai-Rheims Version: When brethren dwell together, and one of them dieth without children, the wife of the deceased shall not marry to another: but his brother shall take her, and raise up seed for his brother:

[@anneboleynfiles]

Yes, this verse came up during the Great Matter, but Henry VIII's canon lawyers advised that Leviticus took precedent over Deuteronomy.

[@markorr7125]

I think the critical words here are "brethren dwell together". Henry would say that he and Arthur did not dwell together, each had his own household many miles apart. Also implied in this passage seems be that the brethren's father is dead and that one of the brothers, or both jointly, is/are the head of the family. Again this was not the case as Henry VII was still alive when Arthur died and Henry himself was still a child.

[@suellensheppard9734]

He always blamed someone else