Anne Boleyn: Pawn or Predator - Day 2 of Anne Boleyn, the Woman who changed England

Some see Anne Boleyn, and her sister, Mary, as pawns pushed mercilessly into the king’s bed to advance their family at court. While others see Anne as playing a game and using her ‘feminine wiles’ (their words, not mine!), her magnetism, to charm the King of England, and hold out on him until he offered her the crown, just so she and her family could be the highest in the land.
But what’s the truth? They can’t both be right! And is either view correct?
I explore these views.
By the way, at the end of the livestream, I mentioned that tickets are now on sale for my week-long Spring online conference “Anne Boleyn, the Woman who changed England”. A 7-day conference featuring talks and live chats with 8 Anne Boleyn experts - I can’t wait. You can find out all about it at claireridgway.com/events/anne...

[@nancycampbell8671]

I was going to save commenting until the end of this series, but I can't help myself! This is brilliant and I so appreciate the longer, deep dives. Claire, you are a gem.

[@ritasherwin5413]

The upcoming Anne Boleyn conference sounds amazing. Thank you so much for all that you teach us, Claire.

[@anneriseley9443]

I agree 100% Claire with your assessment of Thomas Boleyn. When you read evidence from history and not from novels and films you can see that painting him as over-ambitious and of bad character is pure fantasy. They were a family of their time. Thank you Claire for all your work and effort.

[@AshleyLebedev]

Thank you Claire & Tim! Gonna try to make your event. I wonder sometimes on other Thomas Wyatt poems having read him (he is for me what George B is for you, just such an interesting Tudor character) - His poem “They Flee From Me” is one of those poems that could’ve been about anyone and yet the story of it as he plays it out sure seems to point to someone who used to be of his status or close to him who he used to know until she changed and forgot and became wild. That she is now changed and he’s been given his leave and she now uses “newfangledness” and yet after he chastises this woman in his poem and disses her pretty heavily, the last line actually says that he was gently let down and wants to know what she “hath deserved” as if she was tossed into a situation almost without a choice and he wonders if she really deserves that. Again it could be anyone but sure has a way doesn’t he.

[@Lyndell-P]

🇦🇺 🦘 Absolutely FABULOUS❗... Day 2 (today) was as wonderful as Day 1 (yesterday) and I'm very much looking forward to Day 3 (tomorrow) "Thank you" Claire and Tim 💓 👑 👍

[@yezdnil]

Being 'chosen' by the most powerful man in the Kingdom made Anne's position at Court precarious, rather than secure. That she turned out not be compliant, like her sister and Henry's other mistresses, probably did pique his interest. That didn't make Anne a seductress, just the object of an arrogant and immensely powerful man, fed up with his aging wife who could not give him a son, and following in the direction of a particular sensory organ. I think Anne's education, character and sheer nerve helped her try to make the best out of a tricky situation. She probably realised in the long run that she would have to give in to him at some point. What choice did she have? I think a lot of women nowadays simply have no concept of the truly subordinate position women had at that time. Anne certainly did not deserve what happened to her. Well, Cromwell got his just deserts a few years later. Thank you also for standing up for her father. He was no pimp but an intelligent, clever man, who was a good courtier. I personally think that Philippa Gregory has a lot to answer for the 'black & white' perception of those involved. I really, REALLY don't like 'The Other Boleyn Girl' (the novel,; I've not seen the film). What a whitewash of Henry! And making Mary the younger sister, (contrary to the evidence), and turning her into a saintly figure, flouting all common decency because she truly, truly loved him. Ugh! And poor George. Who knew that being gay (!) would lead you to sleep with your sister?

[@AprilBird4]

Was not able to participate live, but I am getting to listen later. How enjoyable. Such good questions and so nice to hear and give evidence for a much more round Anne. And I'd like to say I really enjoy listening to you. You have a very pleasant speaking voice. Look forward to having the time to listen to day 3.

[@marylouisewood4184]

Amazing talk, Claire! Always enjoy hearing you speak. Purchased The Boleyns of Hever for a Dear Friend for Christmas. Thank you for all you have done for the Tudor Community.

[@cathryncampbell8555]

Thank you for another delightful presentation, Claire. Re: Anne's role as pawn or predator -- I always believe that one ought to seek the source of power in any relationship or situation. Henry VIII was the *absolute* king in an England where the Divine Right of Kings still applied. He *harassed* & *hunted* Anne for a solid year before he got any response from her, so I can never understand why *Anne* is held responsible for Henry's predatory actions. I would love to know whether Anne possibly bore a grudge toward Henry, as her earlier engagement to Harry Percy was aborted by Henry's tool, Cardinal Wolsey....

[@wendychavez5348]

Your Minions glass is just about perfect!

[@Bollywoodlover100]

im so excited for this event as i am writing a thesis on anne boleyn for my bachelors on how her education influenced her as a person and how that alongside gender roles played a role in her rise and downfall so this will be very enriching event

[@ns-wz1mx]

i appreciate your work so much. thank you for staying up in the middle of the night so we all can be here!!!💜💜💜

[@jeannebowes2898]

I am watching you Sun Dec 19 at ten pm. After an iced-in day , I am most grateful to watch your talk. We are enjoying our modest Holiday preps here in the Montana mountains.

[@annabellazsanctuary]

Thank you Claire for sharing your knowledge, research and specialism on the fascinating Anne Boleyn! ❤️😘🙏

[@battybibliophile-Clare]

I was so intrigued bought by your remarks on George and Thomas Boleyn I ordered Lauren's book, as I have already read your book on George. I shall have a browse in your book on George after lunch, it's such a worthwhile read. See you tonight, I'm loving this series of videos.

[@aliharriman]

I'm reading The Six Wives of Henry VIII by Alison Weir. She doesn't paint Anne in a complimentary light much beyond her considerable charity (Jane Seymour gets the same treatment), but I don't think its as simple as virgin or villain. All Henry's wives, perhaps with the exception of Catherine Howard, were intelligent women who made the best they could of their relationship with a man who devolved into the opposite of the Golden Prince he was when he married Catherine of Aragon. By today's standards, Henry was abusive and a sexual predator but imagine being a woman in Tudor England when there was little in the way of rights for anyone but men, and often only for men of status. I'm also reading a biography of Eleanor of Aquitaine by Marion Mead and with so little documentation about Eleanor and the Queens who came after her, I admire any biographer who can write about these women with any accuracy.

[@kimberlyperrotis8962]

I love this series. It’s astonishing that these Tudor people are still fascinating today, almost five hundred years later. I love historical fiction books, films, etc., and I think that, in addition to their entertainment value, they do get more people interested in history, that’s great. But, a lot of social media comments are from people who only saw the Tudors TV series, and don’t really understand the history behind them. By all means, enjoy the fiction, but don’t confuse it with history.

[@Lara-cc6dh]

Hi Claire, first of all I've watched your videos since your On this day in Tudor history in 2019, and listened to them almost everyday for that year. I absolutely love listening to your videos about Anne boleyn and the Tudors in general. I've always found the conversation fascinating when it comes to whether Henry really loved Anne because he had her executed. I wanted to comment my outlook on it, because it does slightly differ to yours. Personally I don't believe love can turn to hate so easily- resentment yes, but hate is a very strong emotion. Although I believe in some cases it can turn to hate, I believe if it does most people have the character to not let it consume them. Personally no matter what my partner did to me, I would never ever think about killing or hurting them. For me, once I've loved someone it never truly leaves my heart and I always wish that person peace and happiness which I think is the same for a lot of people. Hate is the opposite to love, and most people can't just turn such a strong emotion such as love, into its opposite, - I see that as a very black and white way of experiencing emotion, one extreme to another. Henry was a man of extremes and although complex, his way of experiencing emotion was not as well balanced as other peoples. I think Henry could only love to the capacity he could love, which you see in a lot of abusive people that have some deep seated internal issues. We often see these people as not loving properly as we do, which equates in a lot of people's mind as not loving at all. Henry did experience love, but not to the capacity that the average human being would class as true or real love, which explains how he could have loved and hated her AND had her executed. Therefore I believe Henry did love Anne, but only in his small capacity to love, because he most likely had narcissism our some sort of internal problem with processing and experiencing emotions to an average capacity.

[@lilly2b1]

He also had a brain injury, this complicates things even more.

[@cathryncampbell8555]

Thank you, Lara, for your cogent analysis. I think that you have perfectly described a narcissistic personality. I agree with you that Henry 8th *was* a malignant narcissist. People like Henry feel deeply for *themselves,* but their capacity to feel for *others* is seriously stunted.

[@BlackCatMargie]

Thank you, again, Claire. So many good points made here. I will order Lauren's book, as I would like to read a good book about Thomas.

[@Jamiejamjar]

At 59:50 in your video where you chat re the descendants of Mary Boleyn, I am one of them, she is my 17th G-Grandmother :)

[@debrasycks1423]

Thanks Again for another great video!

[@Sophie-kz3jn]

Thank you, this was so interesting!!

[@chrisnatmills7802]

really appreciate this clips. From Natalie in Australia

[@paoladimeo412]

Fantastic

[@paoladimeo412]

Like always fantastic video ❤️❤️🇨🇮

[@katherinecollins4685]

Very interesting

[@kimberlyperrotis8962]

The mindset of men, like the one who’s comment you mentioned, that “when women say no, they mean yes”, is the reason there is still so much rape everywhere. Women are also raised to reject men gently and politely, at least in my generation we were, I’m not so sure this is a great idea now. In my own life, even statements like “No, I’m not going to go out with you, stop asking me”, etc., don’t deter some men in the least.

[@achill6080]

Yellow was the color for mourning in Spain.

[@juliejohnson1663]

Take extra good care, Claire. Preparation for this next onslaught.

[@51Saffron]

My personal opinion is that Thomas Boleyn, although supposedly a well accomplished man, would of absolutely not supported his daughter if she didn't want the king's attention. He was Thomas's meal ticket. His desire for continued wealth and prestige relied on the King's approval, and he would of easily sacrificed his daughter to maintain that. If she went to him and complained of the King's advances and relentless pursuit, it is very unlikely that he was sympathetic towards her. He would of absolutely told her that she was not to displease the king in any way. That would be typical back then. He didn't even try and reason with the king about the slaughter of his daughter and son. He may of been internally devastated, but he was compliant with what happened to her. Actions speak louder than words. And we will never know what words were exchanged between father and daughter..

[@gonefishing167]

Dry enjoyable, thank you Claire but, must admit, I do miss the cameo appearances of Madge and the rest of her coterie. Hope teasel if doing well. 👵👵👵👵🇦🇺🇦🇺🇦🇺

[@LyricalXilence]

Thank you for questioning Thomas Boleyn's position in all this. If Anne and Mary had no say in the king's pursuit why would Thomas have much more? What if he told the king "stay away from my girls" what would happen then not only to him but his family. And I believe it was you who pointed out, once the king set his eyes on Anne no one else.coyld pursue her.

[@glorialange6446]

Ive been revisiting lots of the older vids just to refresh my knowledge. Love you Claire! But I do disagree on a couple of points. 1. Wanting to advance, wanting to be close to the King,and having a physical blood relationship with the Kings immediate family was a greatly desired outcome for almost any noble, because it could lead to wealth and position few couuld aspire to,and there were, and are, many who would thrust a daughter, or a neice, to that 'fate' seeing it as an advancement for the family as a whole. Who could have known the future? Who would have imagined Anne's horrific end? No, not her father , mother, Uncle, or even herself. But to say that there was no proof? There was evidence aplenty. The family as a whole wanted the marriage. Held out for it, schemed for it, and I will never get over the rudeness of Anne towards Katherine, and Katherines daughter, especially at the costuming and pleasure at her death. Anne was quite belligerant in her triumph from ALL accounts, and Henry revelled in it , too, more than likely encouraged or even commanded it... but Anne was seen to actually be prideful and supremely, arrogantly, happy at her winning of the 'prize'

[@alisonmcnamara800]

Who was thre.predator? After Anne attracts Henry who is going to marry her, ever? She made the best of a bad situation. Really he got everything he wanted and still killed her, she got the blame! It's absurd to me that we even debate this, why do we assume Henry was a big baby with no ideas of his own. Anne "stole" Henry, Anne abused Katherine and Mary, Anne was responsible for the deaths of More and Fisher. There was one person with actual power and it was not Anne!

[@cathryncampbell8555]

Yes, precisely! Follow the source of power & you'll know who the responsible person is. (Hint: in the 1500s, the king of England calls the shots. )

[@juliegcrochetandcrafts.]

Thank you for this adventure into more of Anne's life, I feel that most woman of that time were pawns of their families to some extent. Woman were viewed as property to be used to advance themselves.

[@catherined9475]

Henry viii's court sounds like a very toxic place.

[@margaretskarra6388]

Where is your book available?.

[@maureenmcallister2393]

I listened to something earlier with Tracy Borman that said Mary inherited Heverand died a happily married woman that was weathly. In I think she said 1542. But Anne of Cleves is given Hever at some point, so it must have reverted to the crown not been left to her children? Also is it possible that Mary inherited the "B" necklace?

[@pheart2381]

I dont think she was teasing him,or playing hard to get. I think she was just showing the modesty that was expected of young women at the time. Or maybe acting a bit cold hoping he would go elsewhere. I was so busy listening I over proofed my bread dough!

[@blueblack3591]

Some people are just cruel

[@andystaxes9811]

Since there are so many descendants of Mary Boleyn throughout the world I'm wondering if any of them are some of your subscribers:)

[@henryford2950]

Wouldn't surprise me. I wouldn't be surprised if the host of this channel is a descendant of Mary Boleyn, too.

[@krissyk9767]

Its weird that women are sometimes perceived as "seducing" men with their sexual power, as if they have magical abilities somehow to make men fall in love with them. Its ridiculous. As if the men are all so hopeless and powerless ? Henry could quite easily have fallen in love with Anne without her having to do anything. Or even if she did flirt with him or encourage him so what? Henry still had the power to decide whether he wanted her or not. He wasn't hypnotised or forced into loving her.

[@pamelaja33]

Question…….Anne Boleyn was engaged to be married before the Kings pursuit, what about that? How did that evolve?

[@margaretskarra6388]

Where is your book available?

[@anneboleynfiles]

All of my books are available on Amazon and other online stores, and you should also be able order them from bookstores too. Thank you!

[@communingwithGod]

If she would have turned him down he would have probably also done something to her. Possible exile but I'd rather be in exile than to deal with him. This is what happens when a person is married and seeks after married people. God just simply doesn't like adultery and this is the consequences of it. Ann had a choice like we all do

[@genericrobin6597]

Just because a man is aroused and tempted does not make the woman a temptress. Women had absolutely no power in those days but it is a tale as old as time. Even in the present day, there are several Middle Eastern and Arabic countries that shroud their women in heavy dark wool robes and have made it a criminal act if a man is able to see her silhouette as light passes through the wool. Imagine wearing wool during a summer where the temperature rises over 100 degrees! Men must feel very powerless over their physiology to enact and enforce severe laws to keep their libidos in check. Maybe Philippa Gregory could write a story from that point of view.. or even better, Claire Ridgeway could write that! Thank you for another wonderful, informative talk.

[@SafetySpooon]

To the idiots who say "No means Yes", we can ask them "OK, what means "No" then?"

[@ninalily]

I just realized, why didn’t Anne’s parents want to take care of Elizabeth, their granddaughter?

[@catherined9475]

I don't think they could have. I think Henry is unlikely to have let them

[@cl5470]

Tragically, they were both dead within 3 years.

[@kimberlyperrotis8962]

I even saw Anne used (by a man) as a case of someone “so obviously guilty”, that her trial was a waste of time, like a mass shooter caught in the act by hundreds of witnesses and on video. He wasn’t being ironic or facetious, either. Strange, isn’t it? Some people believe only documented facts, others find their own opinion to hav the greatest force of all, despite the facts.

[@kimberlyperrotis8962]

People love archetypes, everyone is assigned to either a saint or a demon type. This is especially true for women, and of past historical figures.

[@EXCIT3D]

Whether Anne Boleyn or Elizabeth I - we can bring them all to life. Like Anne of Cleves, who can be placed on the floor in front of you and made to speak with our augmented reality app. Or you can watch her as an animated 3D model in the video. kzbin.info/www/bejne/kJ6mqYJ_nLKkpNk

[@susangavaghan]

I certainly don't believe that Anne Boleyn was a pawn in her father's ambitions. I believe that Henry replacing Catherine with Anne and his subsequent break with Rome was a combination of him having fallen deeply in love with Anne and his desire for a male heir and Anne's own ambitious nature; she simply saw an opportunity and took it. I don't believe that Henry would have pursued Anne for 7 years if he had not believed that he would win her in the end. He must have had some encouragement from her. Indeed, when Anne thought the whole thing was going nowhere she told Henry that she could have been seeking another match all those years. Which did seem to indicate that her holding off sleeping with him until she won the prize of marriage and being queen was somewhat calculated. There is also the reference in Henry's love letters where he called her 'his own sweetheart', said he wanted to kiss her 'pretty duckies' (breasts) and that it had been some time since he kissed her. This does seem to indicate that his feelings were reciprocated and that although the relationship had not been consumated, it was physical. I believe that religion had little to do with the entire situation. Anne may have had her religious convictions and Henry had his - however, religion was used as a means to an end. Henry may have broken with Rome but was still a Catholic. Mary Boleyn was something of a free spirit, having had an affair with Francis I, so it is doubtful that her affair with Henry was orchestrated by her father out of ambition. I believe that she was ostracized from her family for a time because she married without their consent to someone whom they believed to be of a lower station. No doubt when the two high flyers Anne and George were beheaded, Thomas Boleyn realized that Mary was his last child and this could well have been the reason for the reconciliation. Elizabeth Woodville did play hard to get, but the difference was that, unlike Henry, Edward was not married. Anne Boleyn was politically astute and should have known that, although Henry moved heaven and earth to get her, there was a price - she had to produce a male heir. Her predecessor had failed to do so and Henry had gotten rid of her. Anne failed to take into account that she too could fail and that Henry could get rid of her far more easily. Which he did.

[@wcfheadshots240]

Why aren't you in your normal space?

[@anneboleynfiles]

I'm at home, the WiFi just isn't good enough in the room I use for videos to do livestreaming.

[@anitagibson6075]

Too many ummm s claire very distracting