Answer the Call Podcast - Avenger One and Ver9jl Talk Master Modes in Star Citzen

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@Avenger__One
@Ver9jl
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The Hosts -
Croncy:
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Twitch: / croncy
Twitter: / croncy1
SaltEMike:
KZbin: @SaltEMike
Twitch: / saltemike
Twitter: / saltemike
#StarCitizen #SaltEMike #Croncy

[@cyberiankorninger1025]

Its not "only about combat". The flight characteristics of ships affects all space based gameplay. Thats why its important to get this right finally.

[@muf6861]

Kill the pip aiming system I agree would force people closer and add more skill also. Never even thought of that...I vote for trying this.

[@nydabeats]

Its crazy cause the MM gun balancing fits perfect with the live flight model and the live gun balancing would fit better with the MM flight model. 😵‍💫

[@Deceaser]

nope

[@gene_man2047]

@@Deceaserbeautiful argument. Good job

[@hakon1027]

Jep, in live we have to short ranges and bullet speeds. In current MM we have to high bullet speeds and range. ignore the troll.

[@Deceaser]

@@gene_man2047 yeah

[@Deceaser]

@@hakon1027 nothing 'fits' with 1200+m/s speeds that the engine literally cant calculate so you and op are objectively wrong and cig have said so themselves suck it nerd

[@womblissimo6666]

I like a lot of the ideas here .. including losing the pip (which I confess I always focus on to the detriment to feeling the flight) better flight envelopes (strawberry or odd shapes) sounds very interesting, and closing the distance between military and boost speed. Although I had not thought about it, it seems like it will be a major challenge to make it so that ships in SCM can engage ships in NAV mode though unless you have a mantis or something with you. So right now a M2 in NAV (when it gets armor) with armor and much greater top speed than a fighter in SCM should be unengagable unless they fix that somehow. Congrats to Mike and the guests for having a free-flowing discussion. I figured the PVPers had legitimate grievances before, but did not understand what they were. I feel I understand the arguments a lot better now.

[@Invictus_Praetorian]

I would love a show where A1 isn't talking so much, but instead listening. He tries to control every conversation... like dude, take your own advice, stfu and listen. There are legit times where I can not bear to watch this crap cuz he won't stfu and let Ver9il talk... sheesh!

[@Nicolas-vl5pg]

Agree soooo much

[@DennisBLee]

"We want closer fights!" - CIG "Let's give everyone 4k range and faster weapons speeds" - Also CIG

[@CitizenScott]

Yeah it’s almost like they’re constantly trying different things during the earliest stages of development

[@officerpp2558]

almsot 3 and a half an hour podcast. Nice good stuff to listen to while im traveling. Sad to see Croncy not beeeing there. But staying up until 2-3 am in the morning on Sunday would be rough :D

[@XeroStateLIVE]

2:49:30 Verg is absolutely right. The current "live" flight model has evolved a LOT over the years. Master Modes will too, and it's up to CIG to create the base, then build the ceiling higher again with mechanics and development of the flight model (and ships/weapons/armor/shields/gameplay).

[@CitizenScott]

Yeah 100%. Even after all that evolution and iteration, this barebones framework is already a big improvement in a lot of ways.

[@CitizenScott]

Next level chat PvP... LETS GOOO

[@daffydus]

When I watch A1 through the SaltEMike-filter of this podcast I understand his viewpoints and can handle him more. Great job Mike, you really went above and beyond to herd these top chefs through this show in a way that they communicate their message well outside of their echo chamber, that goes in particular towards A1.

[@CitizenScott]

Mike did a great job yeah, but A1 was still doing his normal shtick and arrogantly trying to lead Vergil into giving him the answers he wants. Big up Vergil for not taking the bait, and respectfully speaking his piece every time.

[@AnswerTheCallSC]

If only you could respectfully do the same, look in the mirror man. -Mike

[@CitizenScott]

​@@AnswerTheCallSC Hey man you know how it is. Can't go around high sticking ppl then be mad when you get clipped... you're not wrong though I'll chill

[@cyvan1750]

Good Job with this Mike. A1 sometimes sells himself short with the way he says or words things , (like naming the recommended settings after himself in his video), but what he and Virgil said made a lot of sense. I'm particularly intriuged by that idea of removing the pips. My only concern tho is how would that affect Turret gunners. Because of the size of the ships with turrets , they'd be easier to hit from a distance w/o pips than it would be for the turret gunners to hit the attacking ships if they kept to that distance. The attackers would control the engagement range w/o a way for the turrets to effectively fight back. One possibility is to have perhaps to make the projectile velocities of turrets to be faster than for the fighters so that turrets would need less deflect per m than the fighter to hit and give them a zoom so they can judge where to aim more effectively.

[@micahreichard1788]

I hate the pip! I hardly ever see what I’m shoot at. I have to look at a little mfd to see what I’m shooting at! 😢. I come from xwing series of space games.

[@LuismaLorca]

Make turrets super fast, almost hitscan, with very low comparative damage. But yes, pip gone sounds like a brilliant idea.

[@markreiffel807]

It's totally a thing that could be enabled for some ships, maybe cargo ships have a version of the pip so their big guns are fearfully accurate at range to ward off attackers and easier to use by rookie combat pilots. It's not cut and dry, different ships can have a mix of all these things to make each unique.

[@llamaboypeez2055]

I wonder if manned turrets could still work with pips and that's something that would set turrets apart. Like once a ship is within a certain closeish range, then turret pips start working to help gunners hit fighters circling.

[@HybridVAudio]

I think part of the reason why they chose the egg shape profile was it also assisted with the goal of bringing controller parity for HOTAS which is still the weakest control scheme due to it being limited in how it can control lateral movements in a 6dof environment with the live model currently. If the shape changes again to make lateral movements stronger then this could cause issues with the parity they are looking for. After all, they want to appeal to the broadest audience possible, and this also means bringing controller parity for those that want to use throttles. Of course, you could add pedals to address the aforementioned issues, but there still a consideration to the pros and cons and how you balance those against say M&KB and HOSAS in a dynamic 6dof environment.

[@rhadiem]

Personally, I think they should split SQ42 and Star Citizen controls if necessary. I hate gamepads for anything FPS or sim related though so I don't support doing anything gamepad oriented for Star Citizen. Gamepad support should be removed for Star Citizen.

[@CitizenScott]

It's legit mind-blowing that we are having this conversation 12 years in. Listening to A1 and Vergil go back and forth you would think this was a pre-production pitch meeting. Insanity.

[@Spike.SpiegeI]

I'm not surprised, there are so many other systems that had to be built in the game before you can even discuss what the flight model should look like. This is just step one, as the devs have said. We will also have to see how master modes combines with systems like ship armor, atmospheric flight, engineering, etc. And NONE of this could be figured out until they built the underlying systems to support these things.

[@CitizenScott]

@@Spike.SpiegeIIt's a game built on spaceships and funded by selling them. Sorry, but it makes zero sense that it's so unknown 12 years in.

[@AlexanderLeister]

@@Spike.SpiegeIWell, in sane game development you would have some systems and gameplay loops in place BEFORE you even start production. SC lacks that. Roberts is an ideas guy but his management skills are non-existent as proven time and time again before he kickstarted this dumpster fire.

[@walawala-fo7ds]

That's why they are resisting speed increases. They've lowered the speeds multiple times and the pvp folks keep asking for speed bumps until we're back at 1200m/s again. And the cycle repeats. At least this time cig is standing firm and may tweak other things. So maybe this time things will finally work... And if not see you in 2029 when they realize we're back to 1200m/s

[@Spike.SpiegeI]

@@CitizenScottall the spaceships aren't even in the game yet, how can you say what the flight model is going to be so early on? If they had defined it earlier than this there is no doubt it would just change again later so why waste resources on it when it would just have be continually reworked over and over?

[@crispy9175]

What if, instead of "MODES" (with a hard on/off state), what if we take that and turn it into a gradient? The faster you move the weaker your shields until they're gone at full speed? Your guns cone of spread increases with speed, and quantum mode still disables guns and shields.

[@nydabeats]

yup and we already have a power triangle to accomplish this, to have 100% shields you should have to put 100% power to shields, to go full speed, you put 100% power to thrusters. They already have the solution they just don't see it.

[@SultanDesync]

I so much prefer that concept, but they tried something like that and for some reason never committed. I really hate the hard toggle and the name "Master Modes." I think it shows they're reluctant to engage with really difficult problems creatively.

[@novarexus64]

Actually a really good idea

[@Deceaser]

too many problems try again

[@crispy9175]

@@Deceaser what are some of the problems with the idea? Thinking of making a spectrum thread about it. Would love to hear about anything I haven't thought of.

[@Banzai431]

Good lineup of guests

[@jacekdarocha7054]

I used to play with AVS at arena commander before MasterModes were introduced, and what I have to say it was so much interesting and rewarding to learn, train and improve. I loved how high ceiling was set. I am going to start playing again and I hope I still will have so much to learn and train.

[@CitizenScott]

2:49:26 Absolutely the best take in the entire video. Vergil gets it, and he's not afraid to be 100% honest about the situation. Really well summarized.

[@LuismaLorca]

Both get it. Honestly some of A1's ideas, like removing pip in favor of a more WW2 style gunnery or removing afterburner would honestly make the game so much more fun and interesting. Whereas Vergjl is more like "they'll make it fun somehow from here, this is just a foundation"

[@CitizenScott]

@@LuismaLorca It's not a competition my dude. Development feedback isn't some meta-PvP tournament. Some people would do well to learn that.

[@PlaMan01]

@@CitizenScott Your comments show otherwise. All of them are you acting salty over A1. Seems a little personal to me... Like him or not, A1 knows his shit. And whatever problems he's running into, eventually you (and me) will too. Both him and Vergil present valid, workable points and seem to be in agreement more often than not. If you honestly think anyone coming onto a video game podcast cares more about their ego than the state of the game, you've got some personal shit to work out.

[@Spike.SpiegeI]

@@PlaMan01Couldn't have said it better myself. I see CitizenScott leaving multiple comments here all shitting on A1. Trying to act like he's not biased but clearly he is. What you said here is the right approach. They BOTH present valid points and like you said to the people who don't like A1 for whatever reason, NO ONE can deny that he knows his shit. The guy has put 1000s of hours into the game and made 100s of videos about it.

[@CitizenScott]

@@PlaMan01 So a guy who is straight up telling you, "I'm the best, I'm the expert, listen to me and don't listen to others, and btw name the whole thing after me," doesn't have an ego? Ok... I'll admit, that all sounds so silly it must be made up, but it's not. He put all that out there in public, and just doubled down in this video. If you honestly thing it's unfair to judge people based solely on their own words and behavior, then you might have your own shit to work out.

[@macrot5419]

I could've watched another 3 hours. This was a great pod.

[@ProximusRegent]

And thought I was a nerd

[@CitizenScott]

You are. They are. We are.

[@Accuracy158]

This was so good I basically don't have anything to add except maybe get some racing and or low-fly guys on next to speculate on what their future gameplay could look like. I know they're not in as much of a position to talk as the combat guys in terms of testing right now but I'd like to see their concerns or wishes get out a little in advance of control surfaces and the like. The guys who do events like Ground Pound and Under The Radar will be loosing their whole sport entirely or rather it will likely just be replaced with something completely new and different. Similarly I think what high end racing looks like is also going to change a lot.

[@hakon1027]

I hope Yogi was also looking this Podcast 🙂This discussion was on point. I would also recommend to look into Freespace 2 combat, after seeing SW squadron. The combat system in FS2 was extremly fun and engaging.

[@MDR1405]

For some youtubers this is not a game it's a job and they need to be able to show off how good they are. For some players this is a game that they play after their real job.

[@HustleBones.]

fax

[@unblessedcoffee1457]

@@HustleBones. And I for one want a game that errs towards the latter, even if it doesnt exclude the former

[@shanks2872]

Imma say it again all major esports games balance around the pros and it works fine.

[@LuismaLorca]

Mind blown

[@justincea8267]

@@shanks2872how many MMOs are in esports?

[@CosmicTurtle13]

To A1s point on the Ion sitting out of range, isn't that exactly what having your light fighters and other ships that work with larger ships are supposed to take care of in the Malstrum system.

[@markreiffel807]

True but how often is that going to happen? its what 7 guys in a hammer head before you even think about engineering, than another 6+ fighter escorts to have the numbers advantage needed? realistically how often is that going to happen outside of huge zerg clans? It takes long enough to get 3 friends together let alone 15-20 to make 1 ship viable!

[@beforcial]

Very good conversation, been looking forward for this one, since Mikes initial mention. You all figured each others chemistry 1/4 in and it gets better as the conversation moved on. My main problem is that we will get a shell of a flight system based on the last SCL: Master Modes and its crazy that so many things are still unknown. But at least they admit to it being just that, a shell and they'll iterate on it but man ... just wow!!

[@markreiffel807]

Bravo guys, I really hope the devs watch this in good faith and take notes. Please CIG tweek tweek tweek! Every 2 weeks, a month try something new in AC, throw all the ingredients in the bowl, try your neighbours recipe, try Gordon Ramsay's! Take the best parts of those improving builds and every few patches put what you have in live for everyone to taste. Bake dammit till you make a cake your grandma will be proud of! As mentioned the urgency is real, if they do not have a fun rewarding flight system in the PU when SQ42 comes out the game dies. It might limp along for a long time but it will never be huge like we all know it could be.

[@happyhodgepodge]

Really appreciate you putting this one out. Long but good with lots of passion and insight regarding an important topic. Reading the comments blows my mind with how many people are talking about how these guys don't represent the community when they are discussing a core _system mechanic_ that will effect everyone...

[@Hav0k]

Okay, regardless of some of the borderline disrespectful reactions from Avenger and I understand that he's extremely passionate about Star Citizen. I am TOTALLY with his suggestion on different power plant sizes having different ranges for the ships weapons. If we could get it to a point where fighters have to be 1000 meters and under and multicrew ships have greater range, this would be a GREAT solution. Getting rid of gimbals for all fighters would be a good solution as well.

[@OddJobEntertainment]

Glad to see these 2 ends of the conversation represented. Already off to a good start. Edit: I think A1 presented himself much better here. I enjoyed how much of the conversation was focused on getting Master Modes to work and adjusting tuning. Previous conversations have been more to the effect that MM is not good. I'm glad to see that is not the case.

[@HustleBones.]

yeh bro thats what happens when cig call u out on cam an say nahhh were not doin what u want

[@markreiffel807]

As A1 clarified here again time and time again he has said MM is an improvement and he likes it for what it allows the game to be. But everyone just ignores that part or didn't watch past his very legitimate criticisms. I suck as a pilot and currently MM is boring for me, I could only imagine how he feels.

[@HustleBones.]

​@@markreiffel807 week ago dude literally said im furious its gonna kill the game but cig told him to stfu an now he loves it huh lol

[@markreiffel807]

@@HustleBones. His stance and thoughts on the mode hasn't changed, he said nothing in this episode that he hasn't said countless times before. But idk mate keep your hate boner for the dude

[@HustleBones.]

​@@markreiffel807 bro hes not gona kiss u

[@chrislewis4810]

It looks to me like cig is focusing more on how mastermodes will work in large scale fleet battle rather then 1v1 dogfighting.

[@Spike.SpiegeI]

Agreed, seems like they're changing things to cater to capital ship combat. The problem with that is capital ships are very expensive and need lots of people to fly. Lots of us can't afford them or don't want to buy them yet the combat is going to fit those instead of the small ships many of us fly. I'm worried about how it will work out.

[@hakon1027]

which is fine. But if there is no space for progression/skill as a pilot, it will become boring really fast (like battlefield).

[@Sacred421]

Seems like they are trying to avoid a meta but there is always going to be a meta. Always. I say make everything tunable for everything. Then it's up to you. If you are tuned for a style of fighter but another style showed up, you are now vulnerable. By being able to have better shields and fast fire rate but lower alpha DMG or vis versa. Right now repeaters are homogeneous. Doesn't matter which you choose they are all the same. Same with components. There needs to be trade offs. More efficient shields and higher power output or higher shields but harder to keep cool and your ability to manage the power while in flight. More power to guns, less power to engines and so on.

[@schlagzahne6741]

Imagine that, focusing on team fights for an mmo

[@Sarazoul]

Yeah... well for over a decade, SC has catered to lone wolves in light fighters dominating the space. So forgive me for not shedding a tear over this news. That said, I don't think 1v1 should be ignored. Not what I'm saying here. And I do hope they manage to fine tune things for dog fighters. But CIG putting some focus on multicrew/larger ships? About time!

[@93adamh]

This was frustrating to watch. The unfortunate truth is that avenger is just better at articulating himself. Which is frustrating because a lot of what he actually said was false, at least in regard to the extremes that he kept proposing we’re definitive truths. There was a lot of “if this, then that”. There’s enough truth in what avenger says to make it hard to argue against without looking like you’re nitpicking because nearly everything he said was broadly and easily debatable. But when you start to point it all you look like an asshole. That was a tough spot for Vergil. It was also a dick move for avenger to propose answers to Vergil like he was a child in the expectation that Vergil would have to give the expected answer, concede in some way and have avenger look more knowledgeable. You could tell avenger was just throwing out so much horse shit at times that Vergil was stumbling wonder where the fuck to even begin lol Further, you have someone embracing MM in its infancy, understanding it’s potential and someone who is largely throwing the baby out with the bath water. Feedback is good but avenger is totally against MM no matter what he says, it’s pretty obvious. Still a super knowledgeable guy, no hate, just seems to be the case.

[@BigGomer]

You it really irked me when he started leading questions fishing for his answer at like 32:00 about he asked him and Virgil disagreed and then a1 just moved on and talked over him it felt like A1 podcast with Mike oh and Virgil is here I guess

[@93adamh]

@@BigGomer yeah the only opinion that seems to matter to avenger is avengers, I’m not saying that’s necessarily true but it is absolutely how he comes across. You hear him say all the right things and address all the critiques about his POV and when you’re listening to it you know it’s not true. I hate to be that guy, I really do, because everyone should have their say but I think avenger has had enough of a say at this point, at least for now. There are a lot of other people that bring a lot more to the conversation. We can’t keep having a guy discuss MM that wants nothing to do with MM, or anybodies opinions on it.

[@klas_gg]

Facts. A1 is like a fucking politician building a base of supporters with wordplay

[@Deceaser]

better at bullshitting you mean

[@SomeGuy-sz1by]

Yes! The "question talking" & forcing others to give you the answer YOU want. He's a hard one to listen to.

[@nydabeats]

We should remove boost and make your top speed related to thruster setting on your power triangle. 200m/s standard with no power to thrusters then it ramps up to 500m/s with full power to thrusters.

[@WhenBaconFlies-eo6xm]

it feels both jarring and yucky, to boost past the max scm, and get resistance that is higher than microtech gravity, back to that max scm.

[@Deceaser]

too many problems try again

[@LuismaLorca]

A boost like SW Squadron could be cool, but afterburner would be better gone tbh

[@dedude5864]

@@LuismaLorca forget boost and afterburner. I want a intercooler turbo !! 😆

[@Pulciu]

Haven't watched yet, but I think this is about to be the best MM content on YT, super excited for it!

[@stegy247]

When they talk about cone, are they talking about the area in which the bullets fly, or the circle auto-aim thing?

[@mrsasquatch4828]

Could this not be fixed if there is a recharge rate for sheilds even under fire and depending on distance there would be damage drop off? So weapons that can dps past shields recharge rate can only do so within close range thus wepons that are like distortions ignore that and just chip away at shields but sacrificing damage to armour? I dunno if that makes sense tbh

[@Isid0nis]

Amazing podcast.

[@93adamh]

I’m looking forward to this one, Vergil is the man. I haven’t listened yet but I’m curious to see where this is going to go

[@Rat-Catcher.]

He did a good job. I wish Mike did not let Avenger talk over him the whole time.

[@BigGomer]

​@@Rat-Catcher.Yah and he keeps trying to lead him on to his answers he even tried to after his rant at like 32 minutes about the buccaneer being meta now Vergil says I don't agree and the A1 kinda just cuts him off and talks until Vergil doesn't bring up his point again

[@blackgoldred]

@@BigGomer I noticed that too. It seems to be a pattern for him, as he behaved similarly on another podcast, only then it was toward the host. It comes across as really manipulative if I'm being honest.

[@cotyhamilton8624]

Not me listening to this long atc after watching today's atc 😂 been cleaning all day and just listening in.

[@LisaSimpsonLiberal]

theory crafting at its highest level

[@RestrictedHades]

the only crafting currently in sc

[@sharxbyte]

I fully agree that larger ships should have longer ranges and smaller ships shouldn't be able to damage larger ships without having multiple small ships to do enough alpha damage to make the larger ship vulnerable. you need an ion or an inferno to take down the armor or shielding to let gladiuses and arrows take the turrets out. what if you turn the pip off at ranges over 200m?

[@HighlyfeDP]

This was a very good discussion about the upcoming changes. Very good guests and people who have spent time testing the new flight model. I have tested MM and I like the framework in which they are building. I don't like the jerk effect when going from NAV to SCM. The weapon ranges are a little high, but I do love the slower speeds of combat to allow for better maneuvers and get positioning on your target.

[@LarsBahner]

Regarding the pip: That's without a doubt the best solution. Just lose it. And lose the gimbal system (maybe a little bit on turret guns). Best turret session I ever played, the whole HUD has glitched, so I had to aim by seeing when my shots landed and created that flare effect on the shields. You can do it a few hundred meters off, but you wanna get closer. And man, oh man was i beautiful!

[@SolusPicaroon]

At 1h15:52 had to comment about gunnery/pip Convo. I am not a good pvp'er but I recall before a lot of shooting solutions occurred around 1500-1200 to actually hit. Instead of taking away pips, how about having a fire solution where pip appears at close range say 800 meters, between 1400 and 800 meters no firing solution making hits possible for a good chase and positioning engagement. Allowing for defensive dodging. Just my take as of someone who is somewhat centered on the pvp/PvE spectrum.

[@danlewis2999]

A wider cone of fire and a change in shields, allowing regeneration under fire, would remove some of these issues. Essentially a ship at 5K shooting with a wide cone of fire wouldn't deliver enough damage to reduce the field at all. Also, I think ballistics should have a wider cone again and realistically they should have a higher recoil anyway

[@Night6436]

He's always going to cry, he pays his bills teaching people how to play this game. If Master modes makes it more, "player" friendly, then there will be no need for him or people alike.

[@jonathanbriand3446]

Not sure if WW2 type of flight is still a thing but for the light fighter archetype make them have more drag but faster acceleration. So its not disney on ice because they drift too much. Make em snappy!

[@justinhausaman2867]

if you want WW2 in space... we did not have pips in WW2, we had tracers... if you want pips it should be a cone pip just like we have in jets today

[@MrSolLeks]

Ww2 also had extensive training and simulators befor going into a fight, that and a single good strafe of fire would down a plane. I dont know if a good burst downimg a fighter would be fun in the pu, in ac yes but not in the pu. It would lead to extended fights of both sides not hitting eachother until the pilots had hunderds of hours, with how ranges differ so much, i was used to that style in planetside 2 but i dont think it would translate well in sc. I do use that method of aim when so.eone pops a cloud but its just meh imo. Now getting rid of most of the auto aim yes, but im a fan of pips.

[@Hairyloft]

Late to the party but such a great discussion thanks.

[@Marlax-101]

when it comes to weapon ranges, make it where your power to weapons charges your shots to make them more effective vs shields. if your power isnt high enough your bullets will do nothing to the shields over distances. Then if you want to convert that to balistics just say that if balistic rounds are detected at a long range the shields are able to more efficiently deal with the damage before it connects by focusing the power to that area of the shield.

[@Marlax-101]

nav mode combat i would assume it would be fighters in nav mode matching speeds to non combat ships then engaging combat mode and firing which would eventually damage the enegies ect of the non combat ship. if the non combat ship does turn on turrets and shields its them locked into a battle ect.

[@cobalt3719]

I follow both Averger One and Vergil for their reacts about MM because as said, they are the experts in regards to this topic and it helps me understand what I feel when I play MM. I was wondering if it could be possible to have these 2 guys exchanging about MM and you did it Saltemike so thank you very much for that. I understand that you wanted to take care about the time it last but I also would have wanted you, Saltemike to not interrupt so much the explanations from both Vergil and Avenger One. I really think CIG, especially the team that is designing MM and engineering should listen more about the feedback you, Avenger One and Vergil, provide and why not include you more into the development of MM. I hope it could be possible to have this podcast again if MM evolves a lot or few months after it get into the PU.

[@youwonder472]

Does MM need adjustments and make it feel mode about flight than shooting and aim yes, but not by increasing the speed.

[@tryn3690]

never thought of no pip but the idea should be worth testing

[@Flufficatfish]

I too like strawberries

[@Marlax-101]

could have audio ques to know when players are locked on the pips also. so new players know when to try and evade fire.

[@Mulmus_Maximus]

on the topic of skill ceiling: sc will not have a match making. How is a high skill ceiling going to work without it?? I recently experienced something game breaking for me. I was in an Arrow, and just so you know, I'm not dogfighting very often, but I'm doing it once in a while. A Hornet came up. This Hornet destroyed me so hard a couple of times, I could not even land one shot. And I guess we can agree on that I'm obviously trash, but as much as I respect his high skill, he was so much better I could not learn anything fighting him. This is why it was not fun at all. And imagine in five years, more players will become better at dogfighting, so such an encounter may become more likely to happen. That's why I think this game has to have a lowered skill ceiling, at least if there is no form of match making whatsoever.

[@coolostomy3898]

That's an issue with the high skill floor, not the skill ceiling. It doesn't matter whether you're able to win a fight, or how much by, what matters is that you are able to understand what happened and improve. At that point, you are at the skill floor. The issue with live is that you could have been fighting another new player, or someone just slightly more skilled than you, and still have no idea how you lost that fight because the skill floor is so high.

[@LarsBahner]

@avenger: The constrained agility is one thing, BUT the accelaration, ranger and speed meta doesn't really matter in the long run, I believe. Because if someone gets 1 shot in you, you might be hit in a way, so that you loose 5% engine power, efficiency or whatever. Like chess - the opening moves are almost always a given, but then the Git Gud sets in, where you get one shot in and the tide turns. So the problem is that the "economy" is a spreadshett now, when monies and ships start to vary this should not be such a big point. It's one of the aspects of the game, Im of the opinion that they're doing run. The fun with minecraft - as well as Chess - is that the rules are simple. You can't really make alternate physis. There are no laws in nature. That laws of physics are derived from constraints. If you just set the constraints, eg. actual weight, engine power and such, then the gameplay will follow. That's the whole point of set rules. (That's aren't spreadsheet'ed) They balance themselves, if the economy works. I get really depressed by thet "it's a game argument". I mean - of course it is, but you can't keep changing the rules, they should follow from basic constraints. But in the long run, I believe we are pretty much in agreement. I just wouldn't worry so much about the metas. In the long run, that is.

[@SeerreuS]

I would like to try all of the suggestions mentioned in this discussion and we probably will but let's just see how it feels but I agree with Virgil little things at a time like the Gunnery first and then let's see how flight feels

[@theRigsby321]

arrow shaped tears of misery

[@Marlax-101]

Could making ships using boost ect in fights able to reposition and wrap around a target but it reduces your weapon and shield energy so there is a risk to pushing in a fight . the more you push the less energy you have for weapons and shields.

[@Silveraga]

talking about the pips system, why not make the pip system appear at about 1km max if they want to keep it?

[@vontak59]

People would stay at 1km and shoot ....wouldn't work.

[@MMORPG87]

the whole HH vs light fighter fight wont be an issue later. right now every ship picks at a health pool no matter the size.. A1 forgets Yogi made it clear you wont be able to do that cause you dont have enough alpha damage to bother the shields... Yogi's example : imagine walking to a tank and shooting it with an m16: you are gonna need to be able to hit in its weight class or at least be close enough to it with MANY ships to bother it

[@ttanfield5616]

They dismissed Maelstrom as a potential solution to the effective range problem SC has right now. And i think they were right, but only because they forgot about the introduction of penetration which maelstrom will facilitate. It's true, making the target smaller makes no difference (the ship hull vs ship engine for example), you've got the same PIP to shoot at, and the same auto-gimble. But if penetration falls off with distance, then that should balance the game by driving the effective range of fighters closer to Hammerheads and similar ships. Or looking at the problem through the lens of damage rather than range, penetration will act as a range mitigating feature. In that the effective damage will fall off with respect to distance. And when the projectiles from a hammerhead have better penertation values than the projectiles from the fighters, all of a sudden theres a huge cross over in the effective range in both ships.

[@ThatGuyKazz]

So first off I just wanna say I agree with most of what what was said here. However the conversation was very focused on the actual flight movement and gunnery aspects of the game which are very important but I don't think those necessarily need to be the end all be all of the skill ceiling conversation. Something that only got touched on very briefly in the conversation is power management. In my opinion there are other systems that can be layered on top of these piloting and gunnery skills to extend that skill ceiling. Again you have power management which is the obvious one but I think that's just one of those additional layers and right now it's not even a full layer. The issue with the power management system now is that it is at best a soft priority system. If you go "full power to weapons" it isn't really full power to weapons because even in that power configuration your shields still charge, your thrusters still produce thrust. Even if it was more of a hard system there are still elements missing like how much power is going to your coolers, avionics, computers, life support, or any of the other systems on your ship. And those other systems are the additional layers of resource management. Like imagine a situation where you over charge your weapons. Well what if that additional power allocation increased the heat build up so now you need to also direct increased cooling to the weapons. Well that means you now need to increase power to your coolers OR pull cooling from some other system. Another option could be that you have your ship's computer doing a lot of that resource management. Well if your computer is managing resources that means it can't spend as much time tracking targets which means that targeting pip is larger and less accurate or possibly isn't there at all. Maybe you also need to increase power to your radar/sensors to keep track of a target. These are all just quick examples but I think it gets the point across that there is a lot more they could and in my opinion NEED to add into the system to push that skill ceiling higher beyond just the actual flight model and shooting. The reason I think we need that is to make multi-crew gameplay enjoyable. We need things for all those people to be doing. No body want's to be sitting in a co-pilot's seat with nothing to do. But if that co-pilot is managing heat and power and computing tasks and e-warfare and all these other system all while an engineer is running around replacing relay fuses and making in-flight repairs and putting out fires that starts to create the multi-crew gameplay we all want. Obviously that becomes a lot to manage for a single seat fighter pilot to manage all at the same time so it would be expected that a lot of those tasks get handed off to the on-board computers which again is going to affect the targeting accuracy of the pip which is going to have that effect of requiring the pilot to close that distance. Where as on a larger ship like the Hammerhead where you have a co-pilot and an engineer or two not to mention all the gunners that could also help manage some of those systems it can dedicate almost it's whole on-board computing power to tracking targets which makes those pips more accurate. This naturally helps balance out that issue of fighters being able to just hang out just out side the effective range of a hammerhead because now they need to get closer for that targeting to work while the hammerhead turrets are very accurate at a much longer range relative to the fighter pilot.

[@Deceaser]

smells like sweat in here

[@aguspuig6615]

God A1 plays ForHonor. My condolances brother

[@Ethan-hh8zn]

Khartul should have a sphere drop flight shape

[@tjnorton87]

Love Vergjl, not a fan of the stuff avenger is throwing around. Also want to add scratch boost, and give us 400-500 speeds

[@tlprescott1]

The goal of lowering the skill ceiling should not be granting a handicap buff to the low skilled to evenly balance a one versus one fight with the high skilled. It should be more about extending the time to kill enough for the low skilled to realize that they are outclassed and providing a semi-reliable way for the low skilled to bug out and survive to fight another day. If we are to maintain the idea of death of a spaceman, we can not get locked into a fight where the losing side only has the choice of fighting until death or turning to run and getting gunned to death.

[@Gunnberg85]

2:37:36 Credit to Mike for pointing out that both the "expert" and amateur voices need to be taken into account. That frustrated inhale by A1 in response to the idea is partly why his detractors want to dismiss him. That to me read as if he was saying, "The amateurs don't matter. People as invested in this game like myself do. And I matter even more when it comes to flight and combat because I focus on it. I'm the master. Listen to me." The sad truth of the matter is, you don't matter any more than the rest of us. Congratulations. You're now getting a taste of what so many CIG/SC/S42 critics have felt for years now. They've been relegated to shouting into the void because no one wanted to hear what they had to say. It was too toxic. It was unproductive. Well, they would be the first to tell you that they voiced their concerns because they wanted the game to succeed. And here you are; best of intentions, but ignored all the same. Welcome to SC.

[@unblessedcoffee1457]

I think if anything, amateur voices matter more than professionals. Starcraft 2 tried to be an esport, it failed because it turned off normal players as a result. Brood War stuck around because it was enjoyable to normal people. I think the take from A1 that "I'm the best in the world at this game and everyone needs to listen to me" comes across really badly. I hate to be that guy but, it really is just a game bro.

[@luinker123]

I've watched a couple of videso of him and it seems that during his first attempt at shutting down MM he came out as arrogant and with that "im the best" attitude. After the backlash he tried to tone down and be more diplomatic, but you can still sense that he just doesn't really care about "casuals", he is not very good at hiding it. He wants people to grind at this and still retain that throne and prestige.

[@acapor4044]

@@luinker123 Don't think you can ignore the fact if the skill cieling is lowered there is less incentive to pay him to receive his training

[@luinker123]

@@acapor4044 Yes, which is why he is so protective and aggresive. Forgot he also makes money from training, not just content.

[@Gunnberg85]

@acapor4044 I completely forgot A1 charges for training. I can respect the hustle, and as the Joker said, "If you're good at something, never do it for free." However, I can't for the life of me understand why someone would invest money in training on a clearly incomplete and ever-changing cluster of systems. It's speculation on my part, but perhaps that's partly why A1 seems threatened by these changes. Maybe he's seeing fewer customers because of how in flux everything is?

[@Ethan-hh8zn]

They could light fighters a fatter egg... interceptors the longer pointy egg

[@TiredEyeBags]

I might have missed it they addressed this but. My worry would be that removing the pip would only make sense in fighters. If im flying my vulture and someone attacks me because they want an easy kill... Without gimbals and pips ... The vulture might as well not have guns at that point. Seems like they are forgetting there is more to the game other than pvp

[@JIOmland]

Leg/lead beep. should perhaps only be available on "slow" weapons. would have been cool if (cannons 700m/s weapons, and downward,) got PIP.. but only visually when you are "close" (1km) while 1400m/s weapons you actually have to aim..

[@nagasadhu3286]

damn, what kind of weird strawberries do they have there in canada? 😁

[@MMORPG87]

#NoPip YOU get the hits not the computer, it was YOU who put rounds on target it feels soooo good

[@EmbarkationVL]

This is the strawberry we are living in.

[@mdsf01]

Fascinating...

[@XXweelyXX]

A1 is spot on imo. I would like to play this game for years to come yand have the ability to get better the more I play....

[@snakeeyes7101]

Can't say for Vergil.... but oh my... Avenger one has aged since I first met him 😀

[@tafferinthedark]

One thing I can agree with is that in very aspect, CIG overdoes the UI. They are too eager to cram too much information on you. Coming from that Vergjl remark of "UI only gameplay is horrible". I hoever stretch that to FPS combat and crosshairs, pip markers, xray vision...

[@epyonrsi8829]

@Sa;ty Mike....... OK yes we do have a system currently live model and maybe it is still in Master Modes. When you move the capacitor to shields it makes a certain sound. If you move the capacitor to weapons it will make a different sound. If you move the capacitor to shields it will make another sound. Not many players have noticed hat yet. I have. So when you have that fighter targeted and you listen for that sound you should know right away what mode the ship is in. So yes we do currently have a system to know what the capacitor is set to, we just do not have the programming into the game where we can hear that from other ships at this time. So please try to listen to what the sound your ship is making when you have full power to shields weapons or shields sounds like and you will know :D Problem solved.

[@sodiufas]

Yogi should watch it, that a lot of problems that kinda could surface itself? and they are not obvious

[@walawala-fo7ds]

Vergjl has got it. I think Av1 definitely made good points but I don't see his vision of players having an obligation to learn to have fun working at all. They should learn and train to become top dog, but should not be a full time job to just have a good time. A new player should be able to pick up the game without watching hours of tutorials just to deliver a box or shot an npc pirate for fun. I think cig has finally made up their minds with master modes and love it or hate it, it is here to stay and it is the game Chris Roberts decided to make. Whatever we wanted star citizen to be is irrelevant now. This is it. And this is good. At least they are finishing something for once.

[@Zeonymous]

Not learning to have fun. Learning to be competitive. There is a very big difference. Such a game with such a massive scope shouldn't be so overly narrowed on this major issue.

[@negativity1564]

Av1 thinks everyone is going to play hardcore with no life. Its simply not a good opinion

[@Qwarzz]

We've had similar flight model to master modes before. Time will show how set they are on this, this time. I do expect at least 2 years of tweaking for it to be somewhat balanced. The thing is, I assume this is what Squadron 42 will have and they probably want both games to have quite similar flight models.

[@walawala-fo7ds]

@@Qwarzz Nah. CRU / PRE/SCM? Thats nothing like what we have now. In particular nav mode behaves nothing like CRU mode. I was there bro. You ain't gonna get that pass me. I don't know if MM is the ultimate answer, but it is very distinct than the old modes that it deserves its chance in live.

[@Qwarzz]

@@walawala-fo7ds We'll see how it goes. I'll definitely welcome the manual quantum travel which I guess is closer to the old cruise mode.

[@FieldHoodGaming]

MM might work better if CIG implements some of Avenger's ideas. MM is needed for capital gameplay, but it leaves fighters ships useless. It can be balanced way better.

[@damaddmann]

Thanks for this Salty Mike , but man it would be cool too let these guys talk more, sheesh man

[@SuperTyrannical1]

The wiggle thing is why I've always been an advocate of the lag pip. But that said the lag pip is done wrong. If you use lag pip it should move based on your flight not the enemies. if you lock a target and you both fly straight and then that target turns left, for some reason the lag pip on non gimbled weapons moves even though you are still flying straight and level. That shouldn't happen. If you are flying straight with fixed weapons then you pip should be dead ahead. If they are out of range of your setting for your weapons convergence point then you should have to lead the target slightly with your lag pip.

[@curly_]

Goood talks.

[@asog88]

The issue that avenger 1 doesn’t understand is some of his suggestions for improving the skill ceiling are thing the average player wouldn’t want to deal with. Like the game might end up with more engaging flight for 1000 players while everybody else stops playing. Pips have to stay and for buccs just reduce the boost amount and make it a true glass cannon. One shield and less hp. Make it a hit and run ship that can’t handle a fight, but can third party and chase I DO agree with making ranges related more so to power plant size and toning down the sun assist. And I’d love to see his speed change ideas

[@markreiffel807]

The issue isnt that the buc is OP its the only one that is currently capable of any maneuvers. The average player will learn and the skill as a community will grow and the systems need to be in place to support that

[@Qwarzz]

There was a very good point about pips making the combat less interesting. Without pips we would definitely be flying closer in combat.

[@sprintz33]

I like it, but im not sure it would work as we get outside of fighters. If large ships dont have pips with their slower turn rates and range issues, and how big a target they are...it makes them even easier a target. There are ways to fix that (regenerating shields, smaller range on weapons, etc.) But that needs to be recognized.

[@Qwarzz]

@@sprintz33 True. This would definitely be a thing to make smaller ships more fun. Big ships are not supposed to use pilot guns to hit small targets however so I'm not sure if that would be a problem either. Turrets should have easier time to hit fighters that come close and pilot would need to keep them in line of fire by rolling the ship. Soloing multicrew ships shouldn't really work in combat. We should be able to hire NPC crew however to not always need other players.

[@boar-darkspear]

You should have had buzzcutpsycho on here too

[@KildalSC]

Yeah, I have no idea if he was someone Mike thought of when saying he couldn't envision there not being a "civil discussion", but I think he could fit in great here. A1 does take up a lot of "space" though, and even with over 3 hours, it might have been hard to let everyone make the points they want on the topic as it is such a big one. While this had some arguements especially once they got a bit off track with Star Wars Squadrons, it was mostly constructive and enjoyable. Would love to listen to Buzzcutpsycho, A1, Ver9jl and Karl Kaput discuss Master Modes and pvp for hours, not sure how constructive it would be though lol.

[@CitizenScott]

Yeah that would have made the convo more about the big picture and fundamental concepts than the hyper focus on specific mechanics that are constantly changing with every iteration of MM anyway...

[@luke5g230]

Absolutely amazing ATC. Really great conversation. I don’t understand people with bash A1, Virgil or anyone else with the hours and experience they have in what they do and love. I really hope cig listen to the fighter pilots, the racers and keep it so this game can flourish!

[@CitizenScott]

2:21:39 "Your data sucks." Yeah, because it only comes from AC right now, not the PU where the other 99.9999999% of players actually play the actual game. Agreed. And for the same reason, YOUR data sucks. So stop screaming "the sky is falling" when you have no actual clue.

[@lss247]

Dude I think the same. I had enough of this A1 bullshit.

[@CitizenScott]

@@lss247 Yeah man, he's thrown his fit, he's had his say, he's been rejected, now it's time to for him, the community, and the devs to move on.

[@chrismcdonald5775]

3 hours?!? LETS GOOOO

[@therealStempec]

This video was so interesting I watched the whole thing. What is wrong with us guys?

[@georgekruhm178]

Kind of a meh argument until multicrew buffed into the sky. Ceiling can be as high as you want as long as pleb spacers can carpool to stay safe

[@Zero_Some]

It took 2 hours and 36 minutes for avenger to show his true colors, "SHUT UP PLEB I AM THE EXPERT "

[@muf6861]

The guy has 10000+ hours in SC and wins just about every tournament he enters soooo...... yes!

[@unblessedcoffee1457]

@@muf6861If only he had any experience in making fun and engaging video games. Being really good at the game doesn't mean as much as you think.

[@markreiffel807]

That's a pretty poor take you got from that, and Mike fully agreed with him btw It's the same thing if you ate at Gordon Ramsys restaurant and gave him advice he would put you between two slices of bread. You can't deny A1 isn't at the top of his field, that holds weight regardless if he is a content creator or not

[@Marlax-101]

comparing fighter classes i would make light fighters ect better at mobile combat on planets then mediums would be decent in space and planets and heavies would be majorly a space type fighter.

[@Simmortus]

Could all this be balanced by having weapons effected by what systems you ha e on ship and the size of ship. So if your in a Hammerhead it has big asssustems so the same weapon on a hammerhead will do more damage and have more range and the same weapon on an intercepter will hit less and have less range. It seems at this time that the size of capacitor only effects the “Ammo” of a laser weapon. Same with ballistic weapons big ships should allow for loads more ammo buy have a reload time

[@daganael]

I feel that what Avenger is trying to say with the speed is not about numbers, it's not about 200 or 1200, it's about maximum speed vs engagement speed. I took me a long time to figured out that it was what he was talking about. Problem is not the 250 m/s is that we actually fight at maximum ship speed so there's no room for manoeuvring. If we had to fight at 150m/s (maybe because of no pip) then we would have extra speed to use to manoeuvre and try to get positional advantage. why it 'worked' in live is maximum speed is 1200 when engagement speed if around 400 so you have a huge buffer of power to change position. if you fight at max velocity (whatever the vector) then you have no room to move. speed number is irrelevant, ratio between engagement speed and maximum speed is, I think I understand. @AvengerOne ? 100% agree on the solution proposed here. if ranged is greatly reduced maybe (just maybe) precision targeting can now make sens if it makes you snipe basically. meaning that you have a greater range but also you're now barely moving so you're an easy pray or something like that. very good episode. Thanks Mike for that !

[@WhenBaconFlies-eo6xm]

trying to fit the smallest interceptors and the largest capitals in a 300 scm band, is the reason that it wont ever be fun.

[@LuismaLorca]

You're exactly right, it's about having options and skill ceiling and not just getting literally locked into a boring dps trade. He sugests a few approaches that could work but ultimately it's about getting back some of that breathing room without raising the entry level again.

[@Spike.SpiegeI]

EXACTLY!

[@Spike.SpiegeI]

@@LuismaLorcayep i don't want to have a boring DPS trade where the ship you brought is what determines the outcome.

[@DupreeHD]

10:16 I respectfully disagree here. I understand what he’s saying, but if I understand what he’s saying then I don’t think that level of complexity should come at the sake of fun. (I’m not saying he said this), but CIG has to make sure this thing doesn’t turn into a work training simulator. That being said, yes, let’s add a level of complexity. Do things need to be point and click ? Oh nooooo, but do we need to know the manufacturers guide in order to install a power plant? No. lol

[@edwarddomenico9601]

I 100% agree with this take. Make a complex version for high end gameplay, but don't sacrifice fun in the process. It always amazes me when I see players who want a high detail Sim environment at the cost of fun, because that is what they like. I do think people need to get it out of their heads that SC is a Sim, as it has never really been one. All of this kind of reminds me of the Hovermode debacle from several years ago. A select few would gaslight the players who weren't a fan, or had legitimate complaints about the mode. They would say that the ONLY reason thry didn't like HM, was because they weren't good players and didn't want to try. All this despite HM being about as intuitive as a rock, and extremely punishing and not fun. Could you get good with it? Sure. However, the issues around it were so numerous that it lasted halfway through a patch cycle before being axed by CIG.

[@CitizenScott]

@@edwarddomenico9601 Yeah you hit the nail on the head there... and the biggest issue is the Influencers with the loudest voices who basically get their viewers to brigade for their opinions. Exactly what we're dealing with currently with MM. Why I was happy to hear Jared basically call this guy out on SCL.

[@lss247]

​@@CitizenScottI noticed that too. The answer "No" was awesome to hear. 😂

[@Spike.SpiegeI]

this is the million dollar question, where is the line between too easy and too complex. Both of the guests are talking about solutions they feel will end up in a happy compromise. Many people feel (including myself) that how CIG is proposing master modes right now is too far on the easy side (point and click)

[@CitizenScott]

3:17:07 Well said, Mike. Very important to distinguish between guys like Vergil who have the health of the overall game in mind, and other people who feel entitled and just want to influence in order to seek validation.

[@Spike.SpiegeI]

Bro did you listen to the convo? A1 does have the health of the overall game in mind and he's probably done more for PVP and combat training than anyone else in SC community. He says time and time again that he wants all parts of the game to have a high skill ceiling not just dogfighting. I see you left like 10 comments here shitting on A1, not sure why you have an issue with the guy, but crazy for you to sit here and try to say he "feels entitled and just want to influence in order to seek validation". Feels like something personal, like you're salty that he got the better of you in game or something.