Honest Analysis Of Capital Ships | Captain's Table: A Star Citizen Podcast

The Captain's Table is a podcast dedicated to talking with the Star Citizen Community about the development and news of Star Citizen.
CAST
@LokenPlays
@RadarRanger
@Tree0311
0:00:00 Intro
0:06:43 Discussion
1:45:50 Q&A
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[@valorunkommon799]

Logistics will be the killer of many a capital ship. People are worried about crewing them, and rightly so, but what about food for them? Fuel? Ammo? Small arms & ammo? Repair parts? Etc

[@mooonman454]

I think Logistics will be the start of the True Capital calss starships

[@falloutboy9993]

Simple. You dock hit Rearm, Repair, Refuel and then wait for 15 to 20 minutes.

[@drewbydoobydoo2918]

Or you have some buddies/Org members with C2's, Catepillars, etc to run re-supply mission with fighter escort to retrieve and supply those capital ships.

[@jsullivan649]

Hey, HEY, stop using your brain, we don't do that here!

[@zackn8745]

Once upon a time I helped run the combat team of a decent sized org. One of the things I loved was the challenge of getting a group of people to be capable of working together, accomplishing complex tasks independently but towards a central goal. It forced us to create training and events that were educational AND fun AND respectful of everyones time. Our ability to do that ended up making us an incredibly capable combat force. I really would hate for people who put in that time and build that comraderie together to then be struggling to combat a bunch of pay to win people who just threw their wallet at the game and expect to be able to do it all. I'm very appreciative of the folks who pledged at high levels, but it wouldn't be fair for them to use NPC's to compete with an active playerbase. Orgs that do a good job of providing fun content and a good experience should be rewarded for that.

[@jedi_drifter2988]

IMO Org's will have the best chance of using Cap. ships to their full potential. Capitol crew sizes means Capitol size bills, to pay on everything. Capitol crew size also means excellent communication, to get your objectives completed, herding cats comes to mind. If NPCs are your saviors, they will have to get 100% better than they are now. Just because you can fit 400 players on a server, doesn't mean they want to crew for you. They might want to Captain a ship of their own, like a Retaliator or Perseus instead, time will tell. I don't think people realise that the big capital ships are going to be running multiple missions at the same time. You might have a couple fighters doing bounties, while a drop ship is running bunkers, a cargo ship is bringing in supplies and the Idris will rendezvous with a Starfarer tanker to refuel, before doing a convoy escort mission. How else can you support a huge cap ship ?

[@drewbydoobydoo2918]

An org gameplay loop that sounds so cool to me (as a C2 and box stacking enjoyer) is: Javelin and/or Idris escorting a fleet of Hull Cs/Hull Es who are carrying thousands of SCU of gasping weevil eggs The Hulls can't land, so you have a handful of C2s to transfer the crates into the C2s and then planetside to the sell location. An operation like that will be ultra high risk, ultra high reward, and a pirate org would be salivating at the though of the Hulls and C2s trying to pull that off unprotected. That's where the Javelin/Idris and the escort fleet come into play and provide real value greater than the expense of operation.

[@stevenh9474]

I agree with Tree on the NPC limit thing in that we will be limited in how many we can hire at a time, but I disagree on his take of a limited pool of npc's and players will need to engage in a bidding war for them. CIG talked about how NPC's will get better at whatever profession you've hired them to do. Essentially NPC's will have a RPG aspect of getting better. So he's right in that people will want to hire the good ones, but we will always be able to hire rookie NPC's and stick with them until they are eventually the good ones. He's envisioning a very limited market and npc pop based on people only hiring the trained NPC's, but that's not going to be the case.

[@Tsudico]

Well, he also stated that the pool would be limited due to server resources. Every NPC has an associated memory and CPU/GPU processing cost that needs to be accounted for. There is limit to the number of NPCs that CIG will allow players to have as crew specifically because they can't control those NPCs existing as easily as they can control NPCs at a location or encounter. If a group of solo players with capital ships full of NPC crews all gather in an area, that might cause server performance issues. If I remember correctly, CIG has indicated in the past they want to eventually have separate AI servers that can run the Subsumption AI and then connect to the Replication layer services similar to how players do. Which may explain why they are trying to make the Subsumption AI use all the same capabilities as players, so that they can be connected in such a manner so that each DGS doesn't have to control a number of AI logic processes as well as the regular physics and other aspects, but can offload those portions to AI specific servers. However, running AI servers still has a maximum number of AI per server to achieve optimal performance before the AI will degrade and slow down. Since running more servers will equal more costs, then they have to recoup those expenses somehow. I think Tree is correct that CIG will use one of the only tools they can (their economy) to artificially limit players ability to have large numbers of NPCs by having the NPCs salaries grow with their skills. As your NPC increases in skill the NPC will want ask for increased wages and if you aren't willing to pay for that, they will no longer be your NPC.

[@tree0311]

No, I think it's going to be a pretty diverse market, but the best able NPCs will cost the most. Yeah, NPCs can get more skilled over time, but that also means they cost more over time as they gain skill, and their personality traits mean they don't have to stick with you. The point is, the overall hireable NPC population will be limited, and just expecting to solo a capital ship with NPC crew is not a realistic expectation.

[@Authmion]

I concur with OP. Limits to # we can hire yes, and limited high skilled, but won't be a limit to rookies.

[@tree0311]

@@Authmion it's blind hopium to think that there won't be limits to a population that costs server resources. Sure, there will be more unskilled or lower skilled labor, that's as realistic as it gets. But the overall pool of Subsumption NPCs that players can hire from is going to essentially be a fixed number relative to the player population. That population doesn't go up and down dynamically with Server Meshing, those are the NPCs that spawn as part of probability volumes and they are deletee when streamed out. The Subsumption NPCs become VNPCs when streamed out and continue to execute life cycle logic. I don't think there will be some hard limit that you can hire, I think the game will manage that limit for you based on your ability to pay and provide for and manage them appropriately.

[@Authmion]

@@tree0311 gonna be one of those things where, we will see how it ends up in the long run. I legitimately don't think that in the long run, (LONG run...) that it will not be a huge burden on the servers, or at least, not that bad.

[@chrisbates67]

I think the first test of the capital ship/npc game play should be....take a knap and make the NPC's travel from one point to the other....by themselves

[@Biter1975]

For me my game time on my PC is the “event” I want missions so that I can use my capital ships in my game time. No an event that you might only do once per month.

[@tree0311]

I'm married with two jobs, a toddler with twins on the way. I get it. I also own capital ships, but I have them because I know I won't have the time to grind for them, but I can on occasion use them for that desired experience. But I also know that more often than not I'm going to be using my smaller ships and playing with smaller groups, and I'm fine with this. CIG isn't going to water down an experience they're creating to suit the lives of individuals. Sure, there will be missions, go take down this Vanduul Destroyer or whatever, but expecting them to pop up like low level bounties is not a reasonable expectation, nor is expecting the level of time and effort you need to put in before/during/and after that mission to be remotely the same.

[@heavymetalsazabi4333]

Speaking of capital ships the USS NJ just went in to dry dock so you can actually visit it in on blocks until the end of may.

[@Overallghost]

The anvil ship Paul is talking about is just a bigger version of the Aries 😂

[@llillian4055]

I can imagine an Endeavor parking its mobile space station above the ecliptic to create some really interesting possibilities.

[@Spike.SpiegeI]

Reading the comments here, my biggest concern for people who want to run capital ships solo with NPCs is cost. Unless you're in the game often grinding for cash, not sure how 1 person expects to be able to afford capital ship costs solo. Not to mention you have to pay for the NPCs on top of the ship costs!! These ships will likely be VERY expensive to fuel, repair, rearm, and maintain. I see this as being one of the large money sinks in the game long term and my gut tells me without an org chipping in on the cost it's going to be very difficult for an "average" player to afford the costs to run one of these ships.

[@Hawkeye6941]

I think cargo, salvage, and turret gunners, and explorers will work fine with NPC, mining and big combat or anything that requires precision then no.

[@DeltaPhoenix180]

Regarding how to address how to assemble large amounts of people in one spot at a specific time, they really need a way to interact with your character outside the game in order to do/prepare certain things. You should be able to order things delivered/transported to different locations, you should be able to have your character pay for transport to other locations, you should be able to order ship maintenance/equipment changes where your ships/hangars are. All of this should come with in game costs in UEC as well as time penalties where it needs to be planned out ahead of time to reflect how much time it would take in game, but it would allow busy people with busy lives to at least plan and arrange logistical requirements to skip all the 'busy work' we currently have in game... if they plan ahead correctly. Allow all of this to be done through their website or a mobile app or something, implement appropriate restrictions (you must be at a location with appropriate infrastructure to request a service), and allow people to skip a lot of the initial prep... unless they screw it up, then they need to go back and fix their mistakes

[@Spike.SpiegeI]

I think this is all coming but in game. Honestly, I'm not a fan of having an app to outsource game functions to. If people can't even find time to log in and order a part to be delivered somewhere else, I find that a bit crazy. At some point we have to draw a line and say are you able to play the game or not? I understand being busy, but I feel like you need to at least be able to log into the game to do things in the game. However, I completely agree there should be a way IN GAME to prepare things ahead of time for a fee. Ideally, though this is the point of an org. You'd have other people logging in when you can't to help prepare things for the Friday night event you have planned as an org etc. Like raids in other games such as WoW.

[@steelers99999]

Tevarin Perch / Jeep type small carrier, with a focus on repair and rearm for quick turns for Tavarin quick strike force!

[@plainblake2465]

The majority of the issue with capitol ships was stated by Loken, but he stated as though it is helpful for capitol ships. The majority of people have the fantasy of being the captain of their ship and their friends help them run the ship. But very few people actually want to be the friend helping the captain run the ship. Those players exist, but there are more "captains" than "crew" out there

[@TheAstroPubLive]

I disagree entirely

[@plainblake2465]

@@TheAstroPubLive based on? Every conversation I have ever listened to, read, or participated in, the overwhelming majority, even in your own content and in this very video, participants envision themselves as the captains with their friends or NPCs or both helping. On occasion some one says they look forward to being crew. But if I were to guess I would say less than 10% of those participants want to be crew.

[@TheAstroPubLive]

Based on many conversations I have had with fans over the years. Most people don't want the responsibility of being the captain or want to do things like scanning or engineering. I know a lot of people that want to do things like just loading and offloading things or be a Marine with a gun and doing odd jobs when not shooting people. Honestly a minority of people I have talked to dream of being a captain of a ship.

[@plainblake2465]

Fair enough. We reach have your anecdotes with yours likely being a larger sample size.

[@captainharlock3998]

@@TheAstroPubLiveMost people will solo their capital ships AND be the pilot at the same time while relying on a mix of AI blades and NPC crew.

[@user-bs8xe4dy1i]

The closer SC gets to completion the more complex the wiring of the interdependencies will become. When the engines are completed and the verse goes 1.0 release; the complexity level of the game logic will be about 5% and years out from it's full form. That is not to suggest that it will be lacking, but the play portion of the game design has such potential for depth that it approaches infinite in resolution of realism. The limiting factor will be choice and time to execute. The iterative aspects do not have a upper bound.

[@neonicy2674]

I just hope that the Orion is able to be used by 2-3 people (with a lot of running back and forth) because I know one other person that would like to join me most of the time and one can mine and the other can move the scu containers/operate the drones Also I hope capital ships are like a main objective Orion mine ore for someone or to sell and people will see the Orion pings from their scanner and might sell the info or try to call their friends to try and take down or even try to protect the ship. And do that for every capital ship (maybe one or two cap ships are able to hide/stealth) so they are always known to be in a select area "hey I just got a ping. There's an Orion operating over by HUR L1 let's check it out"

[@latjolajban81]

Don't make the universe smaller. We don't need to have conflict all the time.

[@CMDRKetchup]

This^ I cannot stress enough how annoying it will be if only orgs have big capital ships. Imagine your minding your own business tucked away in a dark corner salvaging away and a capital ship stops by just to ruin your day cause they are a piracy org.

[@aguspuig6615]

They could make something like the Invictus class in Starsector, A ship thats very big, very strong, but for some reason not very efficient so it was decomissioned, but players can still find many abandoned ones. So maybe its downside is that its very very very expensive to mantain, so its not so much about them being rare, whats truly rare is an org that can field one. That could also mean that your avarage player is more likely to find one, cant do anything with it, but can still explore it and such, adding something cool to do while not breaking the game

[@tree0311]

I hear Star Sector, I come running. Everyone should buy Star Sector, everyone should play Star Sector, everyone should LOVE Star Sector.

[@zelange69]

My point of view on capital ship is yes you will be able to solo and it will cost you just the same as human crew but will need more and more management, and they will have needs, and if i remind well cig talk about mutiny at some point, but even cr talk about the gameplay around training your crew.

[@steelers99999]

Vanduul Slaver / Vanduul Crafting ship which gathers strip mining and produces smaller ships and components for Vanduul capital ships!

[@velocitiyraptor]

The Tavarin nest. Its just a CIS corvet looking thing, round ship, with a bunch of landing pads that shoot out birb ships.

[@soeveth]

My Radar is the only radar map I use and I live in Canada where coverage isnt always the best. Even bought it on the windows store. Its weird just running into the app creator in a random SC podcast.

[@TheAstroPubLive]

He's been on a few times but yeah, he's a long time SC backer

[@steelers99999]

Anvil Protector / Frigate size / Roll - Mine Sweeper / Point Defense / Jamming / Combat theater rescue - Uses / Fleet escort /Mine Clearing / Invasion Defense / Battlefield Rescue - Characteristics / Tankey / Anti fighter Turrets-Missiles / Point Defense System /Medical Triage / Better than average VTOL for invasion defense. Ship should provide escort for military supply convoys and cover military landing operations!

[@Biter1975]

For a non military capital I would like something very sci fi looking like the USS Enterprise that combines science, exploration and military show of force. Probably Origin manufactured for the looks. A ship you could imagine an ambassador for the UEE using.

[@AndrewDavid84]

That's what the Endeavor and Odyssey are.

[@llillian4055]

Origin 890J refit to a military hospital ship please. Even has historical precedence with cruise liners being converted in both World Wars.

[@captainharlock3998]

They had in no way shape or form weapons comparable to military ships. IN fact, the weaponry of the 890J right now is way above what those refits had. I think people should stop asking a Luxury party boat to turn into a warship manufacturer.

[@llillian4055]

@@captainharlock3998 I don't give a rats about it being a warship, just more than luxury only for that hull. That's a really niche gameplay.

[@xen1313]

The Endeavor with the paired hospital module setup would outperfom a refited 890J in the medic role.

[@captainharlock3998]

@@llillian4055 There are other ships manufavturers for that. Origin is 100% party boats designers.

[@Spike.SpiegeI]

They already have planned dedicated medical ships. 890j is purely a luxury party yacht. I don't see them offering such a drastic change in role. All along CIG's stance has been to make many different ships, most with a dedicated role. Perhaps they make a medical variant at some point, but given the fact we've never heard anything like this about any origin ships I wouldn't hold my breath. If you want a medical ship go buy an apollo.

[@kudos1729]

Persistent Player Character

[@novalis791]

Hoping subsumption NPCs will be like “containers/kubernetes” separate from the game server process… and can be easily spun out (using an API tied to the shard) based on game subscriptions to pay for the compute in AWS

[@TheAstroPubLive]

Game subs don't pay for the game, they pay for things like the media stuff. Star Citizen will never be a full subscription model game because it wouldn't work. All that would do is reduce the player count and end up with a smaller revenue stream.

[@Varadiio]

@@TheAstroPubLiveReally dude? I literally just found your channel, and here you are arguing with the comments about how the game will be funded when that is hardly at all relevant to their throwaway example of how to fund the actual feature, AI powered by AWS compute. You had nothing to say about the actual idea presented. I'll go elsewhere. Bye.

[@TheAstroPubLive]

Kind of extreme reaction but alright bud, hope what ever is actually bothering you gets worked out.

[@Varadiio]

@@TheAstroPubLive Please do not respond to criticism by questioning the mental health of your critics. It's inappropriate and immature.

[@math1103]

I would love to be 1 NPC per player. Like buddy you choose and keep and “level up” and he can die etc…

[@gearsamp92]

The NPC question. So, we will see the release of NPC crew before 1.0 which is sometime in the not far future hopefully. BETA needs to see this feature in the game before then as a major feature that they will need to work out bugs. I personally think we will see at least the testing of this feature within the next year even if its just evocati 12 months from now. The truth of the matter is that they certainly recognize that everyone wants to live their own space fantasy and not someone else's. "This is not a PvP game." - stated by the devs even recently. So the question of "Too much power?" To one player doesn't matter. Its a PvE game where PvP is possible but not the design focus. Everyone wants to have their ships decked out with their crew. Even if the player in question just loves engineering gameplay and would be well suited as a crew of someone else's ship. It just means that player will choose more NPC's that don't necessarily have skill in engineering in this example. Its odd to me how so many people in the community including streamers who mainline this game expect the NPC crews and its mechanics to be somehow simple and fall short of being something notable content wise. Nothing in this game is intended to be that way even if it is right now. We should be expecting the NPC crew mechanics to be similar to the new cargo mechanics or the current mining mechanics in its complexity as a minimum. NPC crews will not only be common they will be the default. You'll have your friends on your ship to improve the existing high capabilities of the ship. The difference being that people you can actively communicate with, nothing more. Even massive orgs of players will have each player manning their own ship with its compliment of NPC crews and only combining players to increase the combat ability of their individual ships and increase the internal defense of them. For non-combat ships their is likely going to be a threshold at which the NPC's aren't just following your lead or orders which can/will be simplified so that the NPC's can still do the task. Think of the pinging mechanics of other games and your AI will take the ping and do something that is expected with said ping. While in the salvage control for example you'll ping a part of the ship that the AI can reach with the salvage beam and salvage it. The idea that they aren't going to find ways of saving on computational costs of NPCs is also laughable. Radar is 100% correct in the fact that the moment an NPC takes a seat, the physicalized/realized mechanics will end and those NPC's with their modifiers will become like AI blades while in the chair. Tree's "bucket of cold water" is just an example of someone who doesn't know how any of this stuff actually works. He also seems to not understand the core idea of servers and server-meshing or what a virtual server is or how it differs from a single hardware server. Dynamic server meshing will spin up and down virtual servers with allotted space and computational thresholds needed for the activity taking place. As shown with the examples of functional server meshing you have 1 server running 1 capital ship and another server running the opposing capital ship in the idea of a capital ship battle. If you need help imagining what a single server can accomplish take a look at the live game right this moment. 1 server running the ENTIRE poorly optimized Stanton system with all of its player and NPC's doing things. Imagine that power pulled down to an optimized small region, an optimized single ship. Then connect that single server with the other single server of the other ship for the battle taking place. One very important thing to remember is that the server you are on isn't the server that is operating the quantum AI. Your server is streaming in the information that is directly relevant to your ability to interact with it. Hiring NPC crew will likely be tied directly to reputation with different contract agencies in game.

[@bezdownunder5481]

If nps are expensive it's for both npc and npc working for players

[@Minishimirukaze]

Really a missed opportunity on the username for tree, 0tree11 woulda been perfect.

[@tree0311]

Tree has been my nickname since 8th grade, so it's a combo of that and my first MOS.

[@Minishimirukaze]

@@tree0311 understood. I can see why you would want to preserve both.

[@fishbaitx]

i think insurance should work on a size based graduating system size 0 and size 1 (vehicle, snubs, starters , light ships anything on a small hangar) free claim no expedite anything on size 2 and size 3 (freelancers spirits cutlasses, constellations, corsairs etc anything in a medium or a large hangar) free claim longer timers, pay to expedite pay per claim after a certain number of claims within the size range within a certain period of time anything size 4 and above anything in xl sized hangars, is pay per claim pay more to expedite. even longer claim times on the order of days if not weeks.

[@captainharlock3998]

"anything size 4 and above anything in xl sized hangars, is pay per claim pay more to expedite. even longer claim times on the order of days if not weeks." Yeah no, that's bullshit. I think the longest time will be 24 hours for a Javelin when expedited. that way it's punishing enough, take them off the battle, but you let people enjoy their ship the day after. that's what the game needs, and probably what will happen. Of course every ships under the Javelin will be way way shorter times. Maybe 10 hours for an Idris, 6 for a Polaris, etc...

[@bezdownunder5481]

Then we have pirates who will use frigates like in the world to run down onions hulls etc.

[@bezdownunder5481]

To be far OD was rolled on most servers even with no chat... better with chat... but the game is so easy currently if we are honest and mm makes it more so

[@Aeternum_Gaming]

i will never own a capital that costs me credits. Just hire who you need, or ask your corporation to borrow it. a Javelin costs credits. a Idris costs credits. an Orion makes credits. a pioneer makes credits. a Hull E, makes credits. a Banu Merchantman, makes credits. Don't waste credits, make them.

[@drewbydoobydoo2918]

The Javelin is a carrier and the Idris can carry some fighters and has a capital killer weapon, so I imagine the use case would be org vs org operations and complex operations that enable credit making. For example, an Idris accompanying a merchant man/Hull-E as protection, or a Javelin and/or Idris accompanying a fleet of C 2's, Catepillars, and Hull C/E who are transporting supplies to an org base or to a sell location through hostile territory. If you're hauling thousands of SCU's of gasping weevil eggs to a planet and then have to load them onto C-2's to take them to a planetside sell location, you're going to want some big guns and fighter escort to keep that operation safe. It'll take time and draw a lot of attention. A pirate org would nut at the thought of a fleet of C2's and Hull C's/Hull E's trying to pull that off unprotected.

[@MrRevenge_Official]

37 miin... Npc to run your ship... How about 1 onboard Ship AI that can manage all systems instead running in the background instead of NPC running about your ship doing tasks HAL9000 could do.... I foresee those NPC glitching out of your ship in QD....

[@captainharlock3998]

I don't believe a single second that we won't be able to crew any ship 100% with NPC and AI blades. So much so that the Polaris is the only ship I own, I 100% intend to use it as a daily driver, and once available, crew it with NPC / AI blades. The idea of bidding for a limited pool of NPC will never exist, because it would forever only get taken by one, or a few of the biggest orgs, and CIG wants player to have no power over ressources, economy and the like, that includes the availability of NPC.

[@Spike.SpiegeI]

Well we have to accept the fact that every single NPC takes up server resources and that means they are not limitless, there will be SOME kind of limit on how many can be spawned into the game. No one can accurately say what that number will be and if there will be an unlimited amount for each player. We know that they will exist but if for example you want to take out your Javelin which has a max crew of 80 I believe, is it realistic or reasonable to allow 1 player to purchase and use say 50 NPCs? Is it fair to allow one player to consume that many server resources? These are the questions CIG will have to answer eventually.

[@captainharlock3998]

@@Spike.SpiegeIThere will be no limit to the number of NPC. The whole "server ressource" excuse is solved by dynamic server meshing, where a ship can become a server of it's own if need be. I, or anyone, could have 100 NPC on their ship (let's say money isn't an issue), and other around the ship wouldn't feel a thing, if dynamic server meshing ends up working as CIG say it will. As I mentionned, in the end, in SC, there will be many more solo Polaris and Idris by spacedads that take them out to play around, than player crewed one taking part in exceedingly rare org v org events. It'll be like seeing a 890J today. Rareish, but not that impressive.

[@tree0311]

@@captainharlock3998 Server Meshing doesn't solve that problem, all it is there for is to allow for performance to be maintained when more people and thus more parts of the universe are being simulated. There categorically will be a limit in the global population of NPCs, Server Meshing just allows for more of them to be simulated vs being VNPCs at one time when more players are online, and while I hope they don't put a hard limit on how many a player can hire, I wouldn't be surprised in the interest of fairness. It's blind hopium and a clear misunderstanding of how Server Meshing works, the AI system that CIG is building, and their goals for the universe if you believe that you'll be able to just hire as many NPCs from an unlimited pool to solo your Javelin. CIG has been saying it without saying it for years, but this is the perfect example of what copium is.

[@arcakahn]

I will be taking my Idris out solo. I understand the risks. Sometimes you just want to go it alone for the fun of it. Most of the time, I’ll have crew

[@Biter1975]

If capital ships cannot be operated solo with the help of blades and NPC’s, CIG needs to actually say that. Clear up what has the potential to absolutely destroy the community and it’s funding if they get it wrong.

[@gyratingwolpertiger6851]

Considering the average amount spent is 100 or thereabouts it would affect the vocal minority but thats it.

[@Spike.SpiegeI]

Agreed they need to clearly state what is and is not possible, I think the issue is they still don't even know internally. A lot of the NPC/AI stuff depends on server meshing and if they can get it to work as they envision, which is still an open question.

[@gyratingwolpertiger6851]

It will be possible but unlikely to be as effective as players

[@kudos1729]

Should be no limit to ships you can run with NPC’s the limits should be cost (good NPC’s cost more) and efficiency. A PC crewed ship should always be better than an NPC ship. Sure, you can run an Idris with NPC’s but you won’t turn a profit and you run the risk of getting jacked by players…. NPC’s will never be better than the ‘average’ player and they will cost you serious coin for any ‘skilled’ NPC’s that can shoot, or engineer, pilot, medic… etc. these two limits alone get SC to where CR wants it without ‘blocking’ anyone wanting to experience the big ships without having to have a full group of friends online.

[@Authmion]

Players will want to be paid too.... Likely more than any npc ever will. That's the big thing people who dismiss NPCs with "oh they will be expensive" don't really talk about.... (Not nessessarily calling the captains table on that, just in general)

[@bezdownunder5481]

Yet they sold npc as game packs right.. so if I have 5 npc... then I have 5 npc... covered

[@Spike.SpiegeI]

As far as I know, NPCs have never been sold in game. There is no guarantee that you get a certain number of them. No one knows how it will work. They've sold the ships and have said many things over the years about how NPCs or AI blades *could* work but since they're not in game no one knows how it will actually work.

[@jsullivan649]

Eagle Moss was the company... shame they dont exist anymore and went out of business.

[@Biter1975]

If you can’t have a ships gameplay ready for 1.0 do not sell it in the first place. Do not sell it. It’s dodgy as f! Snake oil type sales. Imo the gameplay for the Reclaimer is done. Just some folks had high expectations of what the gameplay would be. Claw was never going to happen.

[@TheAstroPubLive]

That was always going to happen though. The Endevor was stated outright it wasn't going to come out until after release.

[@ZaneDragonBorn]

Anyone soloing a capital ship is insane. Honestly I think its plenty clear: Capital Ship like the Kraken and Pioneer are Org ships. These ships aren't just some "everyone gets to have them" type of ship because that's not this game. We are "Citizens" not "captains". These ships are designed to force hundreds of people to play together in an org base. You may think this is crazy as the amount of coordination is extreme, but that's not the case. No org that doesn't have enough people to easily man a capital ship would ever want to purchase these types of ships. It's just not realistic. And yes, Capital ships are a status piece, but not for you... it represents how powerful your organization is. Orgs will have to force a chain of command on these ships, they will need structure. These ships will most definitely persist in the world and not be stored, they will have to be manned 24/7 by multiple divisions of members. You will need to split crew up into dedicated teams (engineers, bridge crew, medical officers, etc). Yes your crew will be huge, yes it is expensive, but thats the point, Capital ships are a endgame level item that would take a long time to reach, but when you do, you are a powerful foe in the Universe.

[@captainharlock3998]

"Orgs will have to force a chain of command on these ships, they will need structure. These ships will most definitely persist in the world and not be stored, they will have to be manned 24/7 by multiple divisions of members." This is bullshit and you know it. First, ships WILL despawn as long as there isn't a NPC or player in or around in the vacinity of it. Second, just look at the Hammerhead Q&A, where CIG said that STOCK we'll be able to blade 4 of it's 6 turrets, preobably be able to AI blade them all with an upgraded computer, and that's without calculating the NPC crew you will be able to hire. We will definitly be able to solo capital ships, and the only drawback will be costs of NPC, and that player crew will be better, as CIG keeps saying. The whole idea of chain of command is nothing more than RP. do it if you like, it's not needed. The captain can be the torpedo launcher and the pilot at the same time, have 2 NPC as engineer, 4 blades for 4 turrets, 2 more NPC (so 4 in total) for whatever, and voila, you have a solo Polaris. Which is how I'll use mine!

[@ZaneDragonBorn]

@captainharlock3998 Solo is not using npcs. Those words are in my mouth. Chain of command will be a thing on these ships and nobody cares what you want to preach. It's not RP for an org to realize they can't just go and say "Oh you want to fly the 6 trillion dollar org ship that we won't be able to get back? No problem!". And never once said the ship wouldn't derender when no player is near, obviously they will. But the point is the ships won't be storable, it just wouldn't make any sense. They are org bases designed to be livable for long periods. They render when the crew is offline, and render when people get online. You should probably read my "bullshit" before shoving words up my ass. Your whole counterargument aren't even going against any claim I made in my OP...

[@AndrewDavid84]

You clearly have never had to run a multicrew ship before. Do you understand the logistics it takes just to get people with same schedules and timezones to crew these ships. Especially when most people are wanting to do thier own thing or captain thier own ship. What you describe would be a full time job.

[@ZaneDragonBorn]

@AndrewDavid84 No it would be part time. As I said if you could read, you would end up needing a TON of people on these ships. This is why a small org would never buy one of these. Solo gameplay wouldn't be possible either as 1 person aboard a whole capital ship wouldn't be able to hold anything. They would clear it from the inside with ease. You would need to buy NPCs to man when you have low people on shift that day and schedule out time frames with RSVPs. You have to have a scale of org members equivalent to the scale of the ship otherwise the org wouldn't find it worthwhile to invest in. Funny that you say I don't do multicrew, I guess a crew of 4 on a reclaimer doing salvage isn't multicrew now? Feel big and powerful now

[@Spike.SpiegeI]

@@captainharlock3998adding blades to a hammerhead is one thing... the Javelin has a max crew of 80. When you're talking about 30, 40, 50 AI blades on these massive ships because someone wants to solo it, I do think there will be concerns about if that's actually possible. The NPCs/AI blades take up server resources and that means they are not unlimited. I don't see how CIG can just allow anyone who wants to solo their Kraken or Javelin to have that many blades and support players and "world" NPCs on top of that. Seems they will likely have to institute some kind of limits but we'll see. The bottom line is no one knows right now. I just wanted to point out there are levels to this, and a hammerhead is a completely different level than the largest capital ships in game.

[@aguspuig6615]

I feel like ppl wanting to solo cap ships is a psyop. Who rly thinks that? Theres already plenty of solo content planned, no one has an issue on missing out on soloing the biggest ships, and it adds scale to the game, let them be big org ships! And you can always crew the smaller ones with some friends, like the Perseus is suposed to have a crew of 3 isnt it? probably a lowball but still doable, just dont expect to crew an Idris with your two boys

[@Biter1975]

6000 Javalins, 10000 Idriss. People are not buying these ships just for Orgs.

[@captainharlock3998]

We don't THINK that, we KNOW we'll do that. AI blades and NPC crews will allow us to solo any of our capital ship. While player crews will be much better, it will be in the end 100% optional, same as org play.

[@medic4christ777]

The guy in the lower right just gives his opinion as if he works for CIG. Most of what he says the game is supposed to be as fact, is contrary to what CIG has said. Most of the ships in the game are MULTI CREW. The only ones that aren’t are starters and fighters. Your EVERY DAY game play is going to be in the bigger ships. They aren’t going to hard require human crew or this game is going to sink like a rock. Restricting these ships to “special events” is going to eliminate the vast majority of the ships in the game from everyday use. Common sense.

[@Varadiio]

I've been thinking about this a lot lately. I haven't had the time to dedicate to this game to bother with being a sweaty light-fighter champion. I'm also not an average super-casual gamer either. So of course I've thought quite a bit about what areas I can contribute to an org both now and as later features arrive. Right now, for me, the Ares ships are fantastic for combat duties. The concept of a lot of punch in a comparatively small package is perfect for semi-casual single-seat performance. This is also why Corsair is so popular right now if it weren't already painfully obvious. I'm glad more people are screaming about how non-viable multi-crew is for the vast majority of ships. Just the other day I was talking about the ridiculousness that is the Retaliator manned turret count. Five twin-badger (S2) turrets is five extra players with a very dissatisfying loadout. Skorpius represents the pinnacle of multi-crew right now with its quad-S3 turret in a "heavy fighter" class leaving the gunner feeling quite capable. Most of the existing larger ships, however, are far below a hammerhead's gun-per-crew ratio, and it really creates this struggle between fully crewing a mediocre or outright bad turret array, and just defending a single pilot such as in the tali, with an actual hammerhead fully crewed (6 turrets with x4 S4 weapons). This is before getting into engineering gameplay, which creates *even more* crew requirement on an overstaffed vessel like the Tali. What are we even doing? Honestly we're putting a frightening amount of pressure onto a ship's pilot when we consider a medium to large vessel with up to a dozen or more actual players on board and the low TTK, dangers of space, etc. of the game.

[@Spike.SpiegeI]

There is a huge difference between your "normal" multi crew ships and CAPITAL sized ships. This conversation is focused on capital ships. We're not talking about connies or even hammerheads here. We're talking about ships that require 20-80 people to run. There should be questions and concerns about how many of those ships CIG can support in game, on top of the player base and "world" NPCs. If each of these ships requires dozens of AI blades or NPCs then yes I wonder if there will be a limit to how many of these ships CIG can allow to be flying around in game at the same time.

[@tree0311]

The guy on the bottom right has an entire podcast that focuses on citing and having sources for the things that are said in order to accurately inform and set reasonable expectations. Like was said below, we're talking capital ships, not 2-4 crew but 20-40 crew. And I said quite clearly I don't think there will be a hard requirement, but I believe in the soft requirements of cost, that CIG will let the in game economy work it out for the most part just like they prefer a PvP solution vs putting hard in game walls on things. Capital ships, especially the combat capitals, are going to be expensive to operate and are "raid" ships because you bring them out when you can coordinate with more people to use them to their full benefit, when the reward more justifies the cost and the risk. If you think that experience is going to be every day for every one, you're deluding yourself.

[@leehrvyoswld]

Captains of what? 😂 This is all opinion.

[@davewills6121]

I think its plainly simple, if CIG were pushing Solo gameplay they would slave all weapons on all ships to the pilot, with the option for manual override built in...yet they dont. Ai/NPC's are dumber than a post, just look at bunkers even with the so called ''AI update'', NPC's offer no challenge at all. AI Blades/NPC crewman/squad members mean less backers online manning ships, not happening, and CIG would never program them to equal a human crew....never happening, its just living in denial, that what's SQ42 is for.

[@captainharlock3998]

You can actually enjoy your capital ship solo (whatever they say, they're wrong), with NPC and AI blades. I melted everything and now own only a Polaris that will be my solo daily driver, and I entend to enjoy the game to the fullest. This podcast had a lot of good point, but so much bullshit into it as well.

[@davewills6121]

@@captainharlock3998 You wont live long enough to enjoy it, Pyro will be totally off-limits........you'll learn

[@captainharlock3998]

@@davewills6121 ROFL I guess we'll see. But in the end you'll be proven wrong!

[@davewills6121]

@@captainharlock3998 When your being attacked from all sides, there are fires raging in all compartments, your dead in space, on your todd and cant log out because you will get bad reputation and possibly loose your LTI....YOU WILL LEARN THE HARD WAY....and that's in stanton, not pyro

[@captainharlock3998]

@@davewills6121ROFL, you really show you know nothing. first of all, Polaris will be faster than all you can throw at it. Second of all, it's LTI, and CIG already said countless time we will never lose a ship bought with real money, let alone LTI. You're completely ignorant of what the game will be like, and I guarantee you you'll see more solo Idrises and Polarises than player crewed one. Beside, how mant times this last year have you seen fleet battle attacking from every side? Yeah, I thought so. I'll solo my Polaris, kick asses while doing it, and you'll continue to rage as to why CIG let people solo their capital ships it should be reserved for ORG chads. Keep seething!

[@Ethan-hh8zn]

BSG is 6 degrees of freedom...

[@TheAstroPubLive]

BSG? Battlestar? It's only lightly 6 DOF, like flipping backwards to shoot, but otherwise it is still mostly atmospheric dogfighting. Also the OG BSG is not 6 DOF.

[@Ethan-hh8zn]

@TheAstroPubLive in the new one for fighters is all 6 dof of freedom just most of the time the fighter screen is going out to engage between to ships which creates a plane of engagement but whe. They get closer they orbit and flip around if they're flown by the experience pilots in the show, while rookies fly like they don't have 6dof.

[@Damiv]

Tree has no idea what he’s talking about. Everything he says has been directly contradicted by official statements from CIG.

[@TheAstroPubLive]

You have a link?

[@tree0311]

Prove it. My content is derived from following the development with a fine tooth comb, everything in the podcast is either backed up by citations or described as speculation based off of what has been said. I can cite everything in my arguments easily.

[@mikehoncho116]

Jesus I couldn't even make it through the introductions... Nobody got time for that.

[@TheAstroPubLive]

Bye

[@falloutboy9993]

SC is pay to win. It just is.

[@TheAstroPubLive]

Define it.

[@falloutboy9993]

@@TheAstroPubLive Ok. Paying to win is the act of spending IRL money to gain an advantage over other players. The ships are tiered and have a progression to them. Starter -> Small Fighter/ Specialist ship -> Medium ship -> Large Ship -> Capital ship. Each of them have their own archetype and some are just better than others. So, spending money to purchase an F8C Lightning gives you an advantage over players who are just buying fighters in game. The same with cargo ships and just buying a C2 Hercules. It gives you a huge advantage immediately and skips a lot of grinding.

[@prophet0393]

why do they all have a lisp? ?

[@Hunter-bi7qe]

sounds like you might be coping they want people to spend as much as possible and the capital ships cost the most money. EVE online never really intended for people to rat in the super capitals but people do anyway. guarantee the game will end up going that direction when and if money shows that's what people want to do

[@tree0311]

Capital ships cost the most money, but fewer and fewer people out of the overall population are interested in buying them. CIG makes way more money on smaller ships that are within more peoples budgets, that is a simple law of consumer economics. That and comparing it to EVE is silly, the games only similarity is space and spaceships. The way they work aren't remotely similar.

[@gyratingwolpertiger6851]

Bingo. Whats going to sell more the Fury LX or an Idris? The sales numbers speak for themselves. ​@@tree0311

[@captainharlock3998]

@@tree0311Must be why Idris and Javelins alway, every wave, every sale, sell out in mere seconds.

[@tree0311]

@@captainharlock3998 the warbond Idris and Javelins etc do not, and have been still been available longer and longer every year. It's only credit ones that go super fast. This means that a smaller and smaller percentage of the Star Citizen backer population wants to spend that kind of money, and that percentage will continue to drop. It is consumer economics, there are far more people financially able to make small purchases than large ones, and that makes companies more money. Hence micro transactions. CIG will make way more money selling ships that more people can afford than big ones that most people cannot, and if they haven't moved from the focus on multicrew gameplay since 2012, they aren't going to do so now just because EVE exists. How many times do they have to say that this is not EVE and that experience isn't what they want for people to get that?

[@DeltaPhoenix180]

And take longer and longer each wave to do so

[@Katzh]

this guys are full of bs lmao.