Answering Difficult Questions About the Old Testament

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The Case for the Reliability of the Old Testament (Free Bible Insert)
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In this episode of the Cold-Case Christianity Broadcast, J. Warner answers listener email the Old Testament. Can the Old Testament be investigated with the same rigor we applied to the New Testament in J. Warner’s book, Cold-Case Christianity? How are we to interpret the Genesis creation account in light of the variety of interpretations that are offered by Christians today?

[@samirzen3701]

"We can be divided how he did, but we must be unified for the fact he did." J. Warner

[@AncientApparatus]

This is by far one of the best explanations of how all Christians should approach the creation account!

[@Morewecanthink]

Isn't that very interesting that 'Christians' taking God at HIS word estimate as divisive? Obviously it's not obvious to everyone that not man decides / determines truth but that God's word, the Bible, is truth Genesis 1 ff. included (John 17, 17).

[@GershomDeol]

@@Morewecanthink i dont think Warner or anyone here said Christians like me, who believe in a literal 6 day creation account are the ones causing division. I think the video simply states that we should not be at each others throats over non essential doctrines, as long as we believe in the death burial and ressurection and divinity of jesus , hell and heaven, the trinity, we should all be able to get along like brothers and sisters. I personally believe that God created everything in 6 literal days.

[@tmcobb1888]

The important thing is that, whatever you believe about the creation, fast or slow, it's probably not a salvation issue 🥰

[@sandraproctor854]

But what about death being the result of sin?

[@georgeclose8816]

@@sandraproctor854 I think we can all be civil regardless of our views on the matter and be Christlike. But a genuine question to think about: God told Adam he "would surely die" if he ate from the tree. However, how could Adam possibly know what death was if he had never witnessed it before? Secondly, if humans were immortal, what use is a tree of life? Lastly, if the entire earth was a paradise, why is there a need for a Garden and why would God cast them out of it as a punishment? These are purely scriptural arguments with nothing to do with modern science.

[@thehelpdesk4051]

@@georgeclose8816 regarding your comments 1. Scripture never states that Adam and Eve were created immortal, 2. the forbidden tree they ate from was the 🌳 of the knowledge of good and evil Only God knows the reason for a tree of life... 3. the use of the word death could also be viewed as spiritual as well as physical but clearly they understood..... 4.The entire earth is not described as paradise nor is the garden....its called a garden....even so to be cast out was not only to be apart from God but also out of the beautiful garden where they would have to now struggle just to survive

[@Morewecanthink]

@@thehelpdesk4051 - Of course they were not created immortal: Genesis 2, 15 And the Lord God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it. 16 And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: 17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. But they were free to eat from the tree of Life if they had proven themselves as reliable in trusting God. Romans 5, 12 Therefore, as sin came into the world through one man, and death as the result of sin, so death spread to all men, [no one being able to stop it or to escape its power] because all men sinned. 18 Well then, as one man's trespass [one man's false step and falling away led] to condemnation for all men, so one Man's act of righteousness [leads] to acquittal and right standing with God and life for all men. Romans 6, 23 For the wages which sin pays is death, but the [bountiful] free gift of God is eternal life through (in union with) Jesus Christ our Lord. 1 Corinthians 15, 21 For since [it was] through a man that death [came into the world, it is] also through a Man that the resurrection of the dead [has come]. 22 For just as [because of their union of nature] in Adam all people die, so also [by virtue of their union of nature] shall all in Christ be made alive. Genesis 1, 27 So God created man in His own image, in the image and likeness of God He created him; male and female He created them. [Col. 3:9, 10; James 3:8, 9.] 28 And God blessed them and said to them, Be fruitful, multiply, and fill the earth, and subdue it [using all its vast resources in the service of God and man]; and have dominion over the fish of the sea, the birds of the air, and over every living creature that moves upon the earth. Genesis 3, 17 And to Adam He said, Because you have listened and given heed to the voice of your wife and have eaten of the tree of which I commanded you, saying, You shall not eat of it, the ground is under a curse because of you; in sorrow and toil shall you eat [of the fruits] of it all the days of your life. 18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth for you, and you shall eat the plants of the field. 19 In the sweat of your face shall you eat bread until you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken; for dust you are and to dust you shall return. Genesis 3, 21 *Unto Adam also and to his wife did the Lord God make coats of skins, and clothed them.* 22 And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: 23 Therefore the Lord God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken. 24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life. Romans 8, 18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. 19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. 20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, 21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. 23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body. Revelation 22, 1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb. 2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. 3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:

[@trueedge2097]

Well it is a salvation issue. The creation story is foundational to salvation. Without creation, we don't even know we need salvation. The real question is whether the differing ideas about the mode of creation affects the salvation issue. It is a salvation issue. It's a question of how it affects.

[@melissareid1595]

Great presentation. I needed this as I have my own theories about the Flood and how God will undo the damage done by the Flood. Yet I butt heads with my brothers and sisters who disagree. I needed that reminder that one day we will talk to God and he will say that it wasn't that way. He will tell me the fourth way and blow me away. Thank you so much. Love your stuff.

[@Joh2n]

The evidence for the flood is overwhelming, I hope I don't care how he did ilt when we're in heaven. God bless

[@itzcaseykc]

I just stumbled upon your channel today and this video specifically. You brought up some interesting things. When Genesis says, "evening and morning" it is talking about a day period, i.e. a complete rotation of the earth. The Hebrew word for day [yom] literally means: "to be hot, or a day," which ultimately speaks of a 24 hour period of dark and light... not an age, or for it being thousands of years wish to think. Those who use the phrase that a thousand years is like a day unto the Lord and vise versa take things out of context. This phrase merely means that God is outside of our perception of time and reality and time in heaven is not the same as it is on earth. If one is to take everything after the creation account to be literal, then so must the earlier account of how this world and life began to be. It doesn't take God thousands, or millions, of years to accomplish something. When He makes something, it is complete. IF vegetation, which came before the sun and moon, was made thousands of years before the two heavenly bodies, all vegetation would have ceased to be. However, being that one event occurred just one 24-hour day ahead of the other would allow such vegetation to continue without decay. Just saying.

[@pillarsoftheearth5617]

As a literal day Young Earther, I want to start off by saying you belief in the Resurrection is and the Lordship of Christ is the single determining factor in salvation. With that out of the way, here's my case for a literal interpretation. The linchpin of evolutionary theory is the fossil record. One might add a second linchpin of similarity between different creatures, but that is just as easily attributed to common design/purpose. The fossil record is the key evidence. It holds a plethora of extinct creatures, as well as an apparent progression from simpler creatures to more complex creatures as you ascend the geologic column. If you take this fossil record to be an evidence for the way God created the earth, however, you need to reconcile the fact that fossils are of dead creatures with God's declaration that His creation was "very good." You will have to say that death was a part of God's initial creation prior to sin entering the world. I think it is far more reasonable that the fossils are instead a product of Noah's Flood. The fossil record is a mass extinction event, which wiped out all land and flying creatures with the breath of life, starting likely from sea level, then progressing upwards and inland, burying fish, then land creatures, then birds. If this is the case, then in removing the fossil record as an evidence for evolution, there really is no evidence left. And with no evolutionary history to fit into Genesis, there is little reason to argue that God spent longer than six days to create when He said He did it in six days. In the first place, the theory of evolution is a secular attempt to explain how life came to be without divine cause. We have divine cause, so there's no reason to believe in evolution.

[@anthonywilliams5641]

I so appreciate J.W. Wallace's respect for the arguments from all ends of this argument. A crime scene isn't really complete without a witness to explain what evidence matters, and I believe that Genesis is our witness. I happen to love science, and lost faith in evolution and old earth belief after examining the brute facts of science on both sides and comparing it to what Genesis says happened. I am alarmed at the names some very popular apologists use for people in my camp, and the straw men that are often beaten up as a result of simple misunderstandings of how one could come to a conclusion of a young earth. I so appreciate J.W. Wallace's measured examination of a very important topic. Thank you!

[@Af2brecndwit]

Thank you for presenting an open, honest discussion on this topic. I love the creation story. And find myself drawn back to it, time-after-time.

[@ColdCaseChristianity]

Glad you enjoyed it!

[@kymdickman8910]

Thanks so much for your measured response to this very contentious issue, J.

[@ENFPerspectives]

Your book is fascinating, bringing our Bible studies to new levels of interesting. I wish there were page numbers by the study guide as sometimes we get a little lost trying to dind the answers. God bless you and thank you for taking the time to write it.

[@abovenbeyond2021]

Thank you Bro. Warner Wallace for the presentation. Watching this way later but the points especially about creation was really useful. Yes we do hold different views but glad we all agree it was our Lord. Amen . Thank you

[@berniefynn6623]

Genesis, twelve hours light,twelve hours dark,ONE DAY.

[@thehelpdesk4051]

How could there be a literal 24 hour day when the sun was not created until the 4th day? the actual Hebrew used specifies only a period of time....could be a day as we know or 10000 years...

[@waynegilchrist1596]

@@thehelpdesk4051 when God appears, light appears because He is light. The metaphor, "with God a day is as a thousand years and a thousand years is as a day" is describing the fact that "time" has no meaning to God because He is not bound by it. In fact time was created for man who is finite and not for God who is infinite. No where in the scripture does it say or even indicate that any day lasted for a thousand years nor that any thousand years was ever condensed into a day. If the Bible doesn't make sense and if it is inconsistent then it is completely worthless. The whole point of the Bible is to have faith that a book written by, and compiled by over 40 different authors over a period of 1500 years at the instruction and inspiration of God has also been preserved in it's integrity by this same all knowing and all powerful God. Common sense should as well tell the Bible student that if you take the thousand years as a day/and vice versa, and apply it to the other events it doesn't have harmony but confusion. For instance, when Jesus Christ was dead for the 3 days, and if we apply the thousand years to it; then the disciples would have been ancient indeed and and the account of record of the oldest man being Methuselah at 969 years, would have to be rewritten and Peter, the oldest disciple would have to add 3 thousand years of birthdays to his age and Jesus' s mother, Mary who is surely older than Peter would also. I don't know why I am even on this site because there are so many reasons this man's logic is specious. I know he means well and I am not attacking him personally but his approach is man wisdom and not God wisdom. When you attempt to rationalize miracles, and explain them, if they could be explained, then your being able to explain it would mean it was not a miracle to start with. Lastly, he mentions science a number of times in his explanation but science has been proved faulty and downright wrong innumerable times on a plethora of fields of study and the Biblical accounts are not proven wrong and more and more discoveries have proved it's accounts right. An interesting research is the man Ron Wyatt and a number of Biblical accounts that he has proved. One is his location of Noah's Ark which the country of Turkey has declared a national historic site.

[@eddiebutkaliuk4681]

@@thehelpdesk4051 it says about moon and sun “God set them in the expanse of the sky to give light on the earth, to govern the day and the night, “. Gen 1:17. According to gen the sun doesn’t define a day, but tells us when it is. That’s how I understand it.

[@trueedge2097]

@@thehelpdesk4051 no. You have light and darkness and separation between them on day one All you need is a rotating earth that passes through the light and darkness over 24 hours. It is that simple. Genesis describes a creation where the materials are laid out then later organized. We build homes in much the same way The language of Genesis does not point to anything other than a straightforward day.

[@scottearlsmithFTC]

This is awesome stuff Jim. The creation issue is divisive but I really like how you reconcile things at the end of the video by saying we can have different views on creation and still get along - providing we are in agreement that God created the universe... And there will be surprises when we do find out how He did it.

[@allysondoerfler2435]

Age of the Earth is interesting, you can discuss, but DO NOT let it divide us.

[@CJFCarlsson]

Thanks for keeping the comments open. If you create a simulation, it is not necessary to start the simulation from zero. You can start the simulation with any intial values, for example with earth already in a gravity field, already in ligth from the sun, Adam already 20 years old and so on. And Adam would be 20 even it it was the first momnt of simulation. Soooo... Since we know this. Then the contradictions between YEC and OEC may be zero, regardless of if "yom" is to read as a literal day.

[@AncientApparatus]

You actually made me think of something I had never thought about before; If we "evolved" as they say in science then how did the early "primates" survive at birth & how were they even "birthed" to begin with? It's the age-old chicken & egg argument, which came first?

[@canadiankewldude]

@@AncientApparatus Thankfully the Chicken.

[@Krillian777]

I love the list where you demonstrate where we all agree! That was really unifying and I agree that while one theory is better than the others, I don't think our interpretation affects our salvation (even if there's a theory that aligns more logically with our salvation). I could be wrong about my theory, but I still love Jesus, trust His Word, and am striving to follow it as closely as I can. And I feel confident that I can apply that same sentiment to others with different theories than mine.

[@tabs91]

Love this, especially your final comments! Thank you!

[@user-wr2cd1wy3b]

I think the age of universe may end up being answered like "Where in space is planet Earth located?" Or even, "Where is space located?" From who's perspective are we asking about when time began? And, which _one_? Which time? There may be parallel. What we do know is that the creator has it's face in its creation through methodology like Christianity, and when one has substantial exposure to certain things, they're spun back around and get to personally see. Why one and not another--the questions are as deep as time.

[@Krullmatic]

I've kinda been stuck on this as well. There is one verse in Genesis, right after the creation story that always struck me. I'm paraphrasing, but it says something along the lines of. '"And these are the generations of how the Earth was created. The word generations is what sticks out to me.

[@HiThereHeyThere]

And the evening and the morning were the next day.

[@joshrichards9121]

Thank you. You're a real help to me on my journey to the Lord.

[@JonHuhnMedical]

This is the most rational discussion of the origins debate by far.

[@joseph816]

So good! Just so good! Praise God! Grace to each other. Amen!

[@ravissary79]

You've done a great job trying to treat the different factions fairly. I think the truth is somewhere in the middle... meaning genesis isn't 100% literal... BUT, it is genuine and historical, Adam was a real person, the genealogies reflect legendary versions of a sampling of real historical events... AND YE creationists I think are right about their biggest point of argumentation, the science isn't even remotely settled and has too many problems with how it tries to objectively nail down time. Systemic errors in any of the methods we use can have a chain reaction that renders a result that could be billions of years off, a miscalculation by orders of magnitude, simply because we're drawing logical inferences from things we can't fully nail down. It's the empiricist/solipsist problem. Any genuinely informed but THOROUGH empirical skepticism can't even establish that the world didn't start existing 5 minutes ago, or that your neighbor isn't a robot. Dial back the crazy sauce and the alternative isn't just accepting all of science, but is a rational middle ground... skepticism about material origins, tentatively using the 13 billion years data, but not treating it as gospel in light of the relativistic effects on time by acceleration and the fact we haven't actually observed the processes we suspect gave rise to universe formation. This is find creationism is a powerful check on naturalistic hubris but it can't produce a viable theory of origins that's provable on its own, thus 6000 years could be WAY OFF. Some how, from some vantage point, the truth is in the middle, but God didn't lie to us, he simply didn't have OUR MODERN anal world view concerns in mind when Moses told the children of Israel about Adam and Eve. It's real but it's also mythical.

[@stephenking4170]

TYPO correction needed( it significantly alters the message) In your list . please check your 4 point synonymous bible/science list at 23:40. The final point should read Humans...unique IN the animal world, not IN the animal world, as the latter implies that humans simply share a level of consciousness possessed by other animals. I am an ecologist who has spent a lot of time considering evidence and views and commend you on your sensible balanced approach. It's worth looking at John Lennox's illumination of the 6 days being a literary teaching device with the first 3 days addressing form and the second 2 days revisiting those same 3 elements of creation addressing enrichment of them. search his 7 days that divide the world lecture.

[@stephenking4170]

My own typo: (late at night) !! ' So I meant "unique IN the animal world....not unique TO the animal world , as the latter implies etc...." Thank you.

[@jackjones9460]

Stephen King Since the comment is yours you normally are allowed to edit the comment. Just touch the three dots in the right and select edit. I appreciate your comment. Hopefully the author does as well. You demonstrate someone closely following the presentation!

[@Athanasius242]

I believe that God created everything in 6 (24 hour) days. The reason why I believe it is to be interpreted literally is because Moses used the phrase "And there was evening and there was morning, the first day", "And there was evening and there was morning, the second day" so on and so forth. But as it relates to the science supporting a old earth, I believe that when God created the earth is was a "mature earth." Its a weird expression I know. But let me give an example to kind of explain it. When God created Adam and Eve He didn't create infants and waited for them to become adults, they were already adults when He created them. Similarly the earth was mature when God created it. What's your opinion on that?

[@DavidLoveMore]

If all you've been taught is an old earth, learn what young earth creation scientists say before you reject a young earth.

[@ohiorn34]

No one questioned the interpretation of the Genesis account of creation until “science” said the earth was millions or billions of years old. The qualifiers “evening and morning” stated after each day no doubt indicates literal 24 hour days.

[@canadiankewldude]

*_Dr. Robert Vance Gentry_* was an American *_Young Earth Creationist_* and *_Nuclear Physicist,_* known for his his work with *_Radio-Halos_* providing *_Evidence_* for a *_Young Earth._* *_God Bless_*

[@canadiankewldude]

Aside from various peoples opinions, you should examine what the details in sciences covering this topic have to say.

[@nayeli5006]

This would be a great book 👍🏼

[@justincameron9661]

Informative

[@John14-6...]

Great video! Myself, I would say Im a young earth creationist with a twist. Why couldn't God create the universe old ( 13.6 billion years ) then the earth young using the literal interpretation , yet create it in a mature state so that scientifically it will date older? Think about it, He didn't make Adam and Eve as babies. He created them as mature humans just like the earth. So really, It could be any one of the views, a combination of them or none of them but I don't think Christians should let it divide us or be a stumbling block in someone's faith.

[@PraiseYahforHeisHoly]

Exactly.

[@morsionowens9933]

2 Peter 3:8 But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day.

[@MichaelAChristian1]

Call upon the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved! Jesus Christ loves you! Get a king james bible and believe. Read Matthew. Read 1 John chapter 4.

[@Katharina643]

There is a thread running through scriptures from the book of Genesis right through the book of Revelation. This thread is so profound that no human could have written this without inspiration. The bible is simply an amazing book. Yehovah and Yeshua are the inspiration behind it. No doubt in my mind...

[@shirleymontano9657]

The word Yom in Hebrew should be better understood. Yom relates to the concept of time. Yom is not just for day, days, but for time in general. How yom is translated depends on the context of its use with other words in the sentence around it, using hermeneutics. Meaning, not a young earth.

[@aisforamerica2185]

"*From the Beginning* He made them Male and Female" 6,000 years after the creation of earth is not "From the beginning" as Jesus said.

[@eldin0074]

Even if you'd try to reinterpret the meaning of the word 'yom' then still you get stuck with 2 major discrepancies between the secular worldview and the Biblical account: 1. The order in which the different aspects of creation were created (like the sun on day 4 after plants on day 3) 2. Death and destruction (which is requried for evolution) coming before the Fall

[@mildom9223]

Genesis 1:5, continues saying "So the evening and the morning were the first day."

[@tookie36]

"The Bible Unearthed" by Neil Asher Silberman and Israel Finkelstein gives an academic review of this question.

[@annieandelsieofarendelle3294]

The Bible even confirms that for God a thousand years is a single day to Him so everything that was recorded happened but in a condensed version because if you look at what the Bible says about the creation of the Earth, everything matches up pretty well with what scientists infer about the creation of the Earth and keep in mind the Bible was written centuries of years before those theories were even thought.

[@mildom9223]

Gen 1:5, 8, 13, 19, 23, 31 mention... "And there was evening, and there was morning-the 1st,2nd... , 6th day.

[@nadams8863]

Amen✝️❤️🙏

[@ikawpipa]

I'd say Dr. Russell Humprheys' "Starlight and Time" scientifically proved the young earth creationist theory. Dr. Humphrey used the Bible (planets were made out of water), Einstein's theory of Relativity and the age of the Universe to accurately predict the magnetic fields of Neptune and Uranus.

[@History_MadeMe_Catholic]

Mathematician of Oxford University, John Lennox wrote '7 days that divide the world' He quotes the Rabbis of old, through the centuries. . The conclusion is. . The first three days are "morning and evening" but but fourth day comes the sun moon and stars. . The Light was the first thing God spoke. Christ said He is the Light.

[@Techreux]

Hmm.. I do know that in technology, we spend MONTHS to YEARS creating a product, documentation, prototyping and even testing and verifying before releasing a product to a manufacturing process, which, properly executed, can take anywhere from a few minutes to a few hours to manufacture the final product. What's to stop us from considering that God may just have done a LOT of preplanning for something that could be executed in a matter of moments? But, equally, it's not impossible to speculate that God could just be more than capable enough to design and execute something in mere moments as well. The veracity and truthfulness of the Bible as God's word to us is a faith based issue (are we willing to believe.. even with the thorny questions), as without faith, many parts read by faithless people from scripture could be mislabeled fictional accounts. It takes faith to be willing to believe biblical accounts.. regardless of whether we have all the ducks lined up in a row (all questions answered fully).. or not. Thanks for posting!

[@MrKylehornsey]

Really enjoyed the way you pinned authority of Old Testament on Jesus Christ - not a clever idea for Christians to argue against that. Yes, Creation is not a salvation issue but... the authoritative truth of Genesis is a big issue for many young people - if they cannot trust that, what can they trust to be truth? God told the Hebrews He did it in 6 days - and they knew full well it was in the context of a week of 7 days, that structure our calendar ever since. Exodus 20:11 It only becomes a problem when we try to apply a bias of pseudo-science agreeing with ancient philosophy that contradicts this. i.e. JWW you sound somewhat rubbery on Creation (just like I once was and many academics are) and it leaves the excuse for Christians to abandon apostle Paul's teachings to the Church that are founded on Genesis 1-3. e.g. by Adam's disobedience we have all been born mortal sinners . Romans 5

[@aggabus]

16:20 where what Romans 1

[@Steve-qt9ce]

So just to keep from being "worked" by people. I always ask them to bring the evidence of whatever theory they they are hanging their hat on. And I'll bring the evidence I have.

[@alparkes6084]

Missed an option! There is a time dilation when viewing time from the zero pt. of the creation event. As space stretches, so does time- to the tune of a million million factor. It could be both- 6 days from observing it from where creation occurred (God’s prospective) and 13.5 billion yrs from viewing it from our Earth’s prospective. Gerald Schroeder has a book out on this. Also Sarah Salviandor, an astronomer has tweeted about this.

[@tww1478]

Sorry, Gods word is the authority, not mans. Gods word says "evening morning was the 1st day, evening morning was the second day, etc and then genealogies until Jesus birth. There is no confusion, unless you add mans word. why do it?

[@lindawarner7496]

Answers in Genesis gives tons of proof for young earth

[@willielee5253]

@Remember Isaiah 40:1 and Isaiah 40:10. COMFORT YE, COMFORT YE MY PEOPLE!!! His reward is with Him and His work before Him. Revelations 22:12. God's blessings are all yours!!!

[@chosen2865]

Love me some old covenant

[@logic8673]

I think we should genesis 1 verse 1 and 2. Use different translations. Also, check the hebrew literal translation. And check it out.... yourself. And what is a day.... was it seriously 24 hours.... like our 24 hours.... based on our present-day rotation? Another thing was, was it from a point of view of man looking up in the sky?

[@sormin8882]

👍❤️

[@VicCrisson]

Commenting for algorithm

[@mildom9223]

We don't know, because the Bible does not say, how long Adam and Eve lived in the Garden but it's wrong, in my opinion to assume that as soon as a couple of days after Adam and Eve were created they disobeyed God. We assume after God rested the 7th day and the next day after that, the 1st day of WEEK 2 Adam and Eve sinned

[@gabrielcaleb9277]

Excellent... again! We ought to free from these sterile debates . They probably do more harm than good. Why can t we say "" I don t know HOW he did it....!" Noone is more or less saved because of his perception of how creation happened. We should be humbler... It s often pride that makes us argue back and forth...

[@mildom9223]

I think the earth was already created, well, according to the Genesis 1:2 tells us that the earth didn't have a form... "2 The earth was without form, and void; and darkness [a]was on the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters."

[@scottmcloughlin4371]

FWIW, this is perhaps the most contested "issue" between Christians after the Trinity. Don't get too worked up. Focus on showing up and charity.

[@prestonbacchus4204]

A man utterly tells off his son for screwing up. Mother says to the neighbor, "yea, Jack really bit John's ear off today". Should the neighbor call the police or will she understand that Jack just told off his son, and did not literally bite off his ear? If you read what is obviously allegory written in religious metaphor and take that literally, you will be VERY confused.

[@notevolution444]

God did it, and God told us how He did it.

[@1nsurr3ction]

I think that God exists outside of time and when scripture says "a day" when talking about Him creating the world, He is going in and out of millenia, maybe even a billion human years, as we would walk out of the living room and into the kitchen in our homes.. because He is God, He is æternal, he is the only true God. Science is simply a tool for us to attempt to understand the wonders of His creation. Proof of His design is everywhere, when we seek knowledge, we are actually seeking God, marvelling at his power and the beauty of everything he made with such love.

[@msvvero]

Appreciate the discussion. As an old earth creationist, I’d just say the accusation of heresy ONLY comes from the YEC side. I’ve been involved in this issue 30 years and have never heard an OEC ever accuse those in the opposite camp of heresy. It is common in reverse. I just wish there was honest admission on this point.

[@KC-fb8ql]

You are correct. If one who holds an old creation view attends a church that holds the young earth view, they should be cautious with whom they share that info.

[@benjamincoetzee]

Hi Jim, How old is the earth? Genesis 1:1 tells us that God created heaven and earth in the beginning - when was that? In the beginning. When was that? Only God knows. Now I believe that everything God does is perfect - yet in verse 2 we read that the earth was void and empty. What happened between verse 1 and verse 2? The Bible doesn't say. What kind of period are we talking about? So the "young earth" theory in my honest opinion is neither Biblical nor scientific.

[@PraiseYahforHeisHoly]

It isn't essential for salvation, but it does mention the sun rising and setting. I'm not sure how the sun's cycle could be open to interpretation. It's the same as perceived contradictions in the Bible. If you think you found one, it is actually you misunderstanding something. The human science could be off. That isn't so hard to believe.

[@Morewecanthink]

Why not take God at HIS word, just as HE told us (2 Peter 1, 16-21)? In Genesis 1 the eyewitness of HIS own creating, the Originator and Owner of the universe, reveals through Moses to HIS creation it's origin, the origin of our sinful adamic nature, of death, the promise of the saviour and redeemer, judgement by the global flood, origin of languages, HIS story with Abraham that is continued through the whole Old Testament, Daniel's 70 weeks for Israel to the Messiah: Jesus. In Romans 1, 20 For ever since the creation of the world His invisible nature and attributes, that is, His eternal power and divinity, have been made intelligible and clearly discernible in and through the things that have been made (His handiworks). So [men] are without excuse [altogether without any defense or justification], [Ps. 19: 1-4.] we are only told that man can conclude from his observations in creation that God, the Originator and Owner of the universe is there. What we must know HE told us in Genesis 1 ff. Death only came into creation with Adam's sin. Not man with his evolutionary presuppositional 'science' (there is a difference between facts and it's interpretations) is the ultimate standard of the only valid ultimate standard which is God's word, the Bible (John 17, 17). [Paul Benware, Understanding the Old Testament Ariel Ministries org, Resources, Come and See] Relevant is what's in accordance with God's truth, HIS word, the Bible. Please do not start to compromise! 2 Timothy 2, 15 Study and be eager and do your utmost to present yourself to God approved (tested by trial), a workman who has no cause to be ashamed, correctly analyzing and accurately dividing [rightly handling and skillfully teaching] the Word of Truth. "The main problem with this type of argument (evidence is necessary to know that God's word is truth) is that it appears that something outside of Scripture is vital to know the truthfulness of a biblical truth, is used to prove a biblical truth. However, we should never use our fallible, finite understanding of the world to judge the infallible Word of God. What we observe in the world can certainly be used to confirm God’s Word (and it does), but our finite observations are not in a position to evaluate the infinite things of God. Only if we start with the Bible as our ultimate standard can we have a worldview that is rational and makes sense of the evidence. ... Certainly God can use signs to reveal things, and that is evident from Scripture. In Luke 2:12 an angel tells the shepherds, “This will be a sign to you: You will find a baby wrapped in cloths and lying in a manger.” However, Jesus also admonishes those that improperly seek signs (Matthew 16:4). In today’s “fast food” society, many people prefer the “drive-thru” when it comes to knowing God’s truths. A sign is much quicker than studying and reasoning from the Scriptures, taking the time to pray, and discussing God’s Word with other believers. Young Christians have started doubting God’s Word (especially the book of Genesis) because this is what is drummed into them from the secular world through much of the media and most public schools. Many desperately want to accept the claims of Scripture but have been taught to think, improperly, that the unaided mind is the ultimate standard for acquiring knowledge. That is why the type of argument used with the ... [inserted: outside of the Bible evidence] likely resonates with them and many other Christians as well. ... Yet Proverbs 1:7a tells us, “The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge” (see also Colossians 2:3). Consider what happens when people try to prove the resurrection of Christ (a biblical truth) using unaided reasoning. Science is clear on this one: dead people do not come back to life. So, does that prove that Jesus did not resurrect? Of course not! Science and human reasoning are not the limit of what is possible; God is the limit. Scripture should be our ultimate standard to understand this miraculous event. Romans 1:20 makes it clear that we can know God through what He has made. ... The supremacy of Christ that is talked about in Colossians 1:15-20 is probably one of my favorite passages in all of Scripture. Paul begins talking about Christ as Creator and moves to Christ as Redeemer. These are truths not because they appeal to our unaided reasoning, but because they are revealed in God’s Word. From an article of Georgia Purdom, Ph. D., Molecular Geneticist" Die grossen Klippen der biblischen Chronologie || Dr. Roger Liebi kzbin.info/www/bejne/jJWvfaVoeJp8nsU Die Chronologie der Bibel || Kurt Becker: Teil 1 - kzbin.info/www/bejne/qp25mph8mKitjtE Teil 2 - kzbin.info/www/bejne/mGiqeaVmnt1lrZo Teil 3 - kzbin.info/www/bejne/bmecYYGZq5KHqdU Teil 4 - kzbin.info/www/bejne/mYusaJuYppZ-osk

[@Morewecanthink]

Deuteronomy 31, 1 AND MOSES went on speaking these words to all Israel: 2 And he said to them, I am 120 years old this day; I can no more go out and come in. And the Lord has said to me, You shall not go over this Jordan. 3 The Lord your God will Himself go over before you, and He will destroy these nations from before you, and you shall dispossess them. And Joshua shall go over before you, as the Lord has said. 4 And the Lord will do to them as He did to Sihon and Og, the kings of the Amorites, and to their land, when He destroyed them. 5 And the Lord will give them over to you, and you shall do to them according to all the commandments which I have commanded you. 6 Be strong, courageous, and firm; fear not nor be in terror before them, for it is the Lord your God Who goes with you; He will not fail you or forsake you. 7 And Moses called to Joshua and said to him in the sight of all Israel, Be strong, courageous, and firm, for you shall go with this people into the land which the Lord has sworn to their fathers to give them, and you shall cause them to possess it. 8 It is the Lord Who goes before you; He will [march] with you; He will not fail you or let you go or forsake you; [let there be no cowardice or flinching, but] fear not, neither become broken [in spirit-depressed, dismayed, and unnerved with alarm]. 9 *And Moses wrote this law and delivered it to the Levitical priests, who carried the ark of the covenant of the Lord, and to all the elders of Israel.* 10 And Moses commanded them, At the end of every seven years, at the set time of the year of release [of debtors from their debts], at the Feast of Booths, 11 When all Israel comes to appear before the Lord your God in the place which He chooses [for His sanctuary], *you shall read this law before all Israel in their hearing.* 12 Assemble the people-men, women, and children, and the stranger and the sojourner within your towns-that they may hear and learn [reverently] to fear the Lord your God and be watchful to do all the words of this law, 13 And that their children, who have not known it, may hear and learn [reverently] to fear the Lord your God as long as you live in the land which you go over the Jordan to possess. 14 And the Lord said to Moses, Behold, your days are nearing when you must die. Call Joshua and present yourselves at the Tent of Meeting, that I may give him his charge. And Moses and Joshua went and presented themselves at the Tent of Meeting. 15 And the Lord appeared in the Tent in a pillar of cloud, and the pillar of cloud stood over the door of the Tent. 16 And the Lord said to Moses, Behold, you shall sleep with your fathers, and this people will rise up and play the harlot after the strange gods of the land where they go to be among them; and they will forsake Me and break My covenant which I have made with them. 17 Then My anger will be kindled against them in that day, and I will forsake them and hide My face from them. And they shall be devoured, and many evils and troubles shall befall them, so that they will say in that day, Have not these evils come upon us because our God is not among us? 18 And I will surely hide My face in that day because of all the evil which they have done in turning to other gods. 19 *And now write this song for yourselves and teach it to the Israelites; put it in their mouths, that this song may be a witness for Me against the Israelites.* 20 For when I have brought them into the land which I swore to their fathers, a land flowing with milk and honey, and they have eaten and filled themselves and become fat, then they will turn to other gods and serve them, and despise and scorn Me and break My covenant. 21 And when many evils and troubles have befallen them, *this [sacred] song will confront them as a witness, for it will never be forgotten from the mouths of their descendants.* For I know their strong desire and the purposes which they are forming even now, before I have brought them into the land which I swore to give them. 22 *Moses wrote this song the same day and taught it to the Israelites.* [Deut. 32:1-43.] 23 And [the Lord] charged Joshua son of Nun, Be strong and courageous and firm, for you shall bring the Israelites into the land which I swore to give them, and I will be with you. 24 *And when Moses had finished writing the words of this law in a book to the very end, 25 He commanded the Levites who carried the ark of the covenant of the Lord, 26 Take this Book of the Law and put it by the side of the ark of the covenant of the Lord your God, that it may be there for a witness against you. 27 For I know your rebellion and stubbornness; behold, while I am yet alive with you today, you have been rebellious against the Lord; and how much more after my death! 28 Gather to me all the elders of your tribes and your officers, that I may speak these words in their ears and call heaven and earth to witness against them.* 29 For I know that after my death you will utterly corrupt yourselves and turn aside from the way which I have commanded you; and evil will befall you in the latter days because you will do what is evil in the sight of the Lord, to provoke Him to anger through the work of your hands. 30 *And Moses spoke in the hearing of all the congregation of Israel the words of this song until they were ended: ...* Hebrews 3, 1 SO THEN, brethren, consecrated and set apart for God, who share in the heavenly calling, [thoughtfully and attentively] consider Jesus, the Apostle and High Priest Whom we confessed [as ours when we embraced the Christian faith]. 2 [See how] faithful He was to Him Who appointed Him [Apostle and High Priest], as Moses was also faithful in the whole house [of God]. [Num. 12:7.] 3 Yet Jesus has been considered worthy of much greater honor and glory than Moses, just as the builder of a house has more honor than the house [itself]. 4 For [of course] every house is built and furnished by someone, but the Builder of all things and the Furnisher [of the entire equipment of all things] is God. 5 And Moses certainly was faithful in the administration of all God's house [but it was only] as a ministering servant. [In his entire ministry he was but] a testimony to the things which were to be spoken [the revelations to be given afterward in Christ]. [Num. 12:7.] 6 But Christ (the Messiah) was faithful over His [own Father's] house as a Son [and Master of it]. And it is we who are [now members] of this house, if we hold fast and firm to the end our joyful and exultant confidence and sense of triumph in our hope [in Christ]. 7 *Therefore, as the Holy Spirit says:* Today, if you will hear His voice, 8 Do not harden your hearts, as [happened] in the rebellion [of Israel] and their provocation and embitterment [of Me] in the day of testing in the wilderness, 9 Where your fathers tried [My patience] and tested [My forbearance] and found I stood their test, and they saw My works for forty years. 10 And so I was provoked (displeased and sorely grieved) with that generation, and said, They always err and are led astray in their hearts, and they have not perceived or recognized My ways and become progressively better and more experimentally and intimately acquainted with them. 11 Accordingly, I swore in My wrath and indignation, They shall not enter into My rest. [Ps. 95:7-11.] 12 [Therefore beware] brethren, take care, lest there be in any one of you a wicked, unbelieving heart [which refuses to cleave to, trust in, and rely on Him], leading you to turn away and desert or stand aloof from the living God. 13 But instead warn (admonish, urge, and encourage) one another every day, as long as it is called Today, that none of you may be hardened [into settled rebellion] by the deceitfulness of sin [by the fraudulence, the stratagem, the trickery which the delusive glamor of his sin may play on him]. 14 For we have become fellows with Christ (the Messiah) and share in all He has for us, if only we hold our first newborn confidence and original assured expectation [in virtue of which we are believers] firm and unshaken to the end. 15 *Then* while it is [still] called Today, *if you would hear His voice and when you hear it, do not harden your hearts* as in the rebellion [in the desert, when the people provoked and irritated and embittered God against them]. [Ps. 95:7, 8.] 16 For who were they who heard and yet were rebellious and provoked [Him]? Was it not all those who came out of Egypt led by Moses?

[@Morewecanthink]

Hebrews 4, 1 THEREFORE, WHILE the promise of entering His rest still holds and is offered [today], let us be afraid [to distrust it], lest any of you should think he has come too late and has come short of [reaching] it. 2 For indeed we have had the glad tidings [Gospel of God] proclaimed to us just as truly as they [the Israelites of old did when the good news of deliverance from bondage came to them]; but the message they heard did not benefit them, because it was not mixed with faith (with the leaning of the entire personality on God in absolute trust and confidence in His power, wisdom, and goodness) by those who heard it; neither were they united in faith with the ones [Joshua and Caleb] who heard (did believe). 3 For we who have believed (adhered to and trusted in and relied on God) do enter that rest, in accordance with His declaration that those [who did not believe] should not enter *when He said,* As I swore in My wrath, They shall not enter My rest; and this He said although [His] works had been completed and prepared [and waiting for all who would believe] from the foundation of the world. [Ps. 95:11.] 4 *For in a certain place He has said this* about the seventh day: And God rested on the seventh day from all His works. [Gen. 2:2.] 5 And [they forfeited their part in it, for] in this [passage] He said, They shall not enter My rest. [Ps. 95:11.] 6 Seeing then that the promise remains over [from past times] for some to enter that rest, and that those who formerly were given the good news about it and the opportunity, failed to appropriate it and did not enter because of disobedience, 7 *Again He sets a definite day,* [a new] Today, [and gives another opportunity of securing that rest] *saying through David* after so long a time in the words already quoted, Today, if you would hear His voice and when you hear it, do not harden your hearts. [Ps. 95:7, 8.] 8 [This mention of a rest was not a reference to their entering into Canaan.] For if Joshua had given them rest, *He [God] would not speak afterward about another day.* 9 So then, there is still awaiting a full and complete Sabbath-rest reserved for the [true] people of God; 10 For he who has once entered [God's] rest also has ceased from [the weariness and pain] of human labors, just as God rested from those labors peculiarly His own. [Gen. 2:2.] 11 Let us therefore be zealous and exert ourselves and strive diligently to enter that rest [of God, to know and experience it for ourselves], that no one may fall or perish by the same kind of unbelief and disobedience [into which those in the wilderness fell]. 12 *For the Word that God speaks* is alive and full of power [making it active, operative, energizing, and effective]; it is sharper than any two-edged sword, penetrating to the dividing line of the breath of life (soul) and [the immortal] spirit, and of joints and marrow [of the deepest parts of our nature], exposing and sifting and analyzing and judging the very thoughts and purposes of the heart. 13 And not a creature exists that is concealed from His sight, but all things are open and exposed, naked and defenseless to the eyes of Him with Whom we have to do. 14 Inasmuch then as we have a great High Priest Who has [already] ascended and passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession [of faith in Him]. 15 For we do not have a High Priest Who is unable to understand and sympathize and have a shared feeling with our weaknesses and infirmities and liability to the assaults of temptation, but One Who has been tempted in every respect as we are, yet without sinning. 16 Let us then fearlessly and confidently and boldly draw near to the throne of grace (the throne of God's unmerited favor to us sinners), that we may receive mercy [for our failures] and find grace to help in good time for every need [appropriate help and well-timed help, coming just when we need it].

[@bluedose15k27]

This is a good perspective to see the creation account..i would suggest another Christian apologists/astonomist/physicist Hugh Ross, viewing creation outside time and on a different dimension perspective.

[@rjvalentini]

Here's my take on the young earth. I spent most of my life denying Him and His word. Why couldn't He create a mature universe and earth same as he did with man. It's not a science book.

[@ORSkie]

Science does NOT indicate an old earth. There are more and more reasons to believe that the earth is young. And beyond that, choosing to take GOD at HIS WORD (rather than trusting compromised secularists who want to do everything to hide and skew evidence for God so as to hold up their theories which deny God) is foundational to trusting HIS WORD throughout the rest of scripture - including the fall, the problem of sin, the need for a Savior, how God fulfilled that redemption through Christ, how we are to live as Christ followers, the rupture and Jesus' eventual return.

[@mildom9223]

In my opinion we're looking at it the wrong way. The genealogy that's traced all the way back to Adam doesn't tells us the age of the earth but how long it's been since SIN entered the earth thru Adam's disobedience