Answering Protestant Objections to Purgatory

[@mzmPACman]

M. Miller back again here :) I made a comment before I realized you had responded to my comment from last video. Thanks for giving that some airtime! I will just say that I agree with your full analysis and will reiterate that the major roadblock for most protestants or converts re: purgatory is the idea of it as a place or 'destination' of suffering. I think a much easier bridge to build---and most A-team apologists do a good job of this---is to help protestants see that expiation of sinful attachments for those in friendship with God after death is not only reasonable, it is Biblically supported, and that is really all the Catholic Church is asking us to commit to.

[@crusaderACR]

That part of the video was my favorite one. The way you put things was beautiful and fosters Christian unity. As a Catholic, I haven't thought about the many ways purgatory may really look like, and didn't consider the fact that it may look different for different people. The Church doesn't require me to adopt any position, and is not intending to settle on one any time soon (the Biblical data on the details is very low, after all) Perhaps I could pray for my loved ones to have an instantaneous purgation, if in case that's possible. I guess it ultimately doesn't matter, given that God knows my heart and what I'm really asking for. It certainly doesn't hurt. Also to pray for the earthly purification of my living brothers and sisters in Christ could be a good idea. I'm loving this. Proof that dialogue with other denominations can bring much fruit. Maybe my prayers will help a suffering Christian somewhere.

[@sivad1025]

I agree. As a Protestant, I thought purgatory was crazy because it's this torture location made up by the Catholics that is never mentioned in the Bible. I eventually learned why CS Lewis (also Protestant) believed in Purgatory and found that to be convincing. It's easier to bridge the gap with the middle position

[@davidmccarroll8274]

As a Christian who is non Catholic I would simply request biblical references to support Purgatory .I have asked other catholics and they tend to avoid answering .god bless and all the best for 2024

[@Jaiden46665]

@@davidmccarroll8274 watch the video

[@davidmccarroll8274]

I have asked others before and not had an answer .could you please give me the Bible references you think support the existence of Purgatory .Thanks and god bless !!!

[@jabelltulsa]

Joe should do a Friday free for all show called Shameless Potpourri. XD

[@TheStrugglingCatholic]

😂Yesssssss

[@pothecary]

Purgatory is actually very logical when you understand it.

[@Forester-]

Yes, the two questions I like to get the basics of purgatory are: Are you a sinner? Will you be a sinner in heaven? If someone says yes and no then they already have an implicit belief in purgation.

[@josh39684]

Once I understand it I realized their actually had to be a purgatory otherwise nobody would go to heaven

[@KnightFel]

And it’s illogical once you understand the gospel.

[@brittoncain5090]

@@KnightFelDid you not watch the video?

[@tafazzi-on-discord]

@@KnightFel I don't think you're using "illogical" correctly. I also trust the people that were culturally closest to the revelation of the gospel to understand its implications over you.

[@MatthewThirteenFourtyFour]

Joe this is brilliant, thank you so much. I’m a recent convert and I’m learning so much. The more I learn the more beauty of god I see! Praise the Lord and peace be with you.

[@rushthezeppelin]

As a fellow convert (a little over 4 years ago) I just want to say welcome home brother!

[@BensWorkshop]

@@rushthezeppelin As a cradle Catholic, welcome home both of you!

[@mangispangi]

Its always edifying listening to Joe Heshes

[@GustavoAndresHerrera]

"The plain language" argument stops at John 6 ;-) "For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink."

[@GustavoAndresHerrera]

@@po18guy wut??

[@GustavoAndresHerrera]

@@po18guy watch the video and you'll find out!!! Haha It is mentioned that some Protestants interpret literally and I'm pointing out they don't interpret literally that particular passage ;-)

[@mikekayanderson408]

Common sense tells us Jesus was speaking in spiritual terms. Jesus would never teach us to drink real blood. It is forbidden in the Bible! And He would certainly not teach us to become cannibals ! The mana sent down from heaven when the Israelites were in the desert miraculously was foreshadowing Christ who is the bread of heaven or bread of life and he confirmed that. So we feed and drink spiritually as we rest and depend Christ and he sustains us. He feeds our souls. So much for eating the real flesh of Christ in the Eucharist as taught in theRoman church. @@po18guy

[@sivad1025]

I'm in RCIA, but I still find transubstantiation to be the one doctrine that I can't believe in without better evidence. The Protestant arguments definitely rely too much on "plain language" but they arbitrarily become non-literskists at John 6. But on the flip side, John 6 is so figurative, it's strange to me that Catholics take it literally. It feels like the Catholics are borrowing from the fundamentalists when they defend transubstantiation

[@tewkewl]

i'm sorry, but jesus is speaking figuratively here. why don't you catholics take things in context?? The whole context is talking about Manna and god providing bread.... that's why he uses that analogy. my goodness.

[@fooberdooge3103]

If anyone wants a great work on purgatory, St. Robert Bellarmine’s book from “De Controversiis” on the subject is by far the most excellent imo.

[@kyrptonite1825]

I think the Good Thief Argument stands on a fallacy. That is, we don’t know how the good thief lived his life, and can’t possibly know the state of his soul. For all we know, he lived a good life mostly, but fell before he was crucified. He could have also lived a bad life, but also had done a lot of good and suffered a lot. His crucifixion could have counted for temporal punishment. He could have been given an Indulgence by Jesus, similar to the Apostolic one at the end of death. His conversion could have produced a lot of effect against temporal punishment. The Protestant argument rests on the presupposition of knowing what exactly his soul was like at death.

[@kyrptonite1825]

Also, Purgatory is attested to in 2 Maccabees, which is Scripture. If a Protestant were to disagree, I’d ask them how they know what is Scripture or not. Furthermore, it seems passages like in 1 Corinthians attest to this, so even by reading the New Testament, this is a very possible conclusion one could come too.

[@chad_hominem]

Prots HATE the canon question cause it exposes their false theology as it's based entirely on a performative contradiction. They reject the Church and her authority EXCEPT (conveniently for them) for the authority the Church exercised in determining and compiling the Canon of Scripture. Without the Church they don't know what is or isn't "Scriptura"@@kyrptonite1825

[@EugeneEmmaKatalemwa]

​@@kyrptonite1825Also the documentary; " Purgatory, the forgotten Church "kzbin.info/www/bejne/qYLdoJ9jjdZ8ptkf

[@rogueraven1333]

Lord, have mercy Christ, have mercy Lord, have mercy

[@RealSeanithan]

The denomination I grew up in does teach that all sin is mortal: if what you do, according to them, can be classified as sin, it will send you to hell in 100% of cases unless you seek forgiveness. That said, there are some things one ought not do that aren't classified as sin in that case. For example, the way smoking is addressed is this: if you are a Christian and you take up smoking, you're sinning; if you are not a Christian, and you smoke, and continue smoking due to addiction after you become a Christian, you are not sinning as long as you are trying to quit; if God helps you quit, then you start again, you're sinning. This is because smoking is bad for you, and if it's bad for you, it's bad, and if it's bad and you know it, but choose to do it anyway, you're sinning. The irony with all this is that they say smoking is potentially a sin because of how bad it is for you, but then they kill themselves eating McDonald's every single day.

[@ogirdoronilag9750]

Cigarette is not a food

[@Forester-]

The occasional cigarette is healthier than eating McDonald's everyday.

[@RealSeanithan]

@@Forester- that's the point, yeah.

[@Forester-]

@po18guy Ezekiel would agree

[@joecastillo8798]

RealSeanithan The following quote will help regarding Purgatory; the place or state in which a saved, but imperfect, soul undergoes purification before going to Heaven. • LUKE 12:58-59 58. So, when you are going with your adversary to the ruler, while you are on the way, make an effort to be freed from him, lest perhaps he may lead you to the judge, and the judge may deliver you to the officer, and the officer may cast you into prison. 59. I tell you, you will not depart from there, until you have paid the very last coin." St. Paul says: • 1 CORINTHIANS 3:15 15. If anyone's work is burned up, he will suffer its loss, but he himself will still be SAVED, but only as THROUGH FIRE. Such fire is a cleansing fire for purification of the soul.

[@milkeywilkie]

Reading Dante’s Purgatorio convinced me that the place of purgation is necessary. It made too much sense!

[@mikekayanderson408]

So you believe Dante over God? Believe God’s revealed truth in His Word - theNewTestament which is inspired by the Holy Spirit. The extra books added by Rome are not Scripture.

[@lellachu1682]

@@mikekayanderson408 The better question is who is more likely to better understand Christianity, Dante, raised in the True faith, or a 21st century Protestant who claims that Rome added Scripture?

[@danielhaas9469]

Dantes inferno is not a real experience. It is a comedy work not based on revelation from God. I find it truly remarkable that people are so easily swaded to accept stories that are of literary fiction.

[@milkeywilkie]

@@danielhaas9469 @mikekayanderson408 neither of you understand what I meant. I know his writing is not scripture and we shouldn't read his depiction of purgatory as factually true, but that the stories of all the souls the pilgrim meets in his journey moved me in such a way so that I could understand why Purgatory is so important. I hope this helps.

[@GumbyJumpOff]

​@mikekayanderson408 you might want to check out Joe's other work on the canon. To contend that Rome added the deuterocanonical books is nonsense that is easily, and fully refuted. We have the evidence. The writings are there. The vast majority of early Christians considered the deuterocanon Scripture. They wrote as much, quite a bit. It isn't really a Catholic's job to defend the 73 book canon, since it was what the Bible was (officially) since ~400AD, but someone with a different canon ought to explain their reasons for it and where the authority to actually change the canon appeared from, one and a half thousand years after the time of the Apostles. The episodes dealing with the canon a bit are titled Did Catholics Add 7 Books to the Bible? Or Did Protestants Remove Them? | and | A Lost Book Foretold The Death of Jesus Christ? about the book of Wisdom and especially its startling, specific, and lengthy prophecy of Christ in chapter 2 I believe.

[@geoffjs]

I gained a better under of Purgatory by reading Luke 12:37-40 relating to when the master returns finding his servants in varying forms of readiness. The first servant, being faithful earns Heaven, the second servant is unfaithful & goes to Hell, whereas the other two servants are punished for their sins ie purgatory

[@tewkewl]

this in no way proves purgatory.

[@1901elina]

​@@tewkewl that one parable may not "prove" it, but it's one of the several places where Scripture implies it. Just like the Trinity isn't explicitly "proven" by one verse.

[@zeektm1762]

@@tewkewlStrawman lol

[@Maranatha99]

@@1901elina the trinity is in Scripture. Purgatory is not

[@1901elina]

​@@Maranatha99there are several places in Scripture where purgatory is implied, although it is not explicitly mentioned. The word "Trinity" is not in Scripture. It is implied, but not explicitly defined, same as with purgatory. God bless!

[@Ekim1740]

They seem to think either you go straight to hell or go to heaven. but the bible also talks about sheol or other phases not like heaven or hell.

[@TruLuan]

Yea, I believe Sheol was in the Old Testament which was divided into 2 separate places, Abraham's Bosom and Hell. The Rich Man and Lazarus story explains it. Abraham's Bosom was a paradise in a limbo state before the gates of heaven opened up. That's why Christ told the thief on the cross "Today you will be with me in paradise" and is why Christ went to Hell

[@josh39684]

A synonym for Sheol is purgatory. Also the Jews believe in purgatory regardless if Maccabees isn't "inspired"

[@albertusjung4145]

When our Blessed Lord said to the thief "Today you will be with me in paradise", he meant and could only have meant, that their souls, upon death of the body, would that very day both be in the netherworld, the bosom of Abraham, the Limbo Patriarcharum, hades, where the souls of the Just awsited in natural happiness the descent of Our Lord to "preach the Gospel to them", free them from their "captivity", their exile from the Beatific Vision, and lead them to Heaven. This is a Catholic article of faith, taught in the Holy Scriptures, Holy Tradition, and the Apostles' Creed.

[@zeektm1762]

@@benjaminfalzon4622”The Bible Corrects Itself” I have not seen a self healing book before.

[@sotem3608]

St. Irenaeus actually mentions the man who went to heaven by Paul is Paul himself. I believe it's in his third book.

[@kellyedington8716]

Would love to know where your St. Micheal statue is from!!! ✌️❤️‍🔥✝️

[@Forester-]

I would believe in purgatory even if I wasn't Catholic

[@39knights]

@andrewjeffery7937 You have it backwards. Once Saved Always Saved was invented by John Calvin who misread Augustine; and anyone with an IQ above one syllable can discover this as it is recorded in history. Catholics can have reasonable assurance; while those who have left te Apostolic Christianity have an unreasonable 100% assurance as you suggest.

[@tabandken8562]

Same. Even though I rejected what I believed Catholic purgatory was. I believed Catholics believed purgatory was a 2nd chance thing. A between heaven and hell. That got all squared away in 2003 and I came into the Church in 2004.

[@RumorHazi]

@@tabandken8562. Nice when things get sorted and it all makes sense, isn’t it? I was the same way. I railed against what I thought was Catholic teaching, until I actually learned Catholic teaching!

[@BensWorkshop]

@@tabandken8562 Welcome home!

[@andrewwhite1802]

This is a great couple of episodes Joel. Thank you! As someone who is currently in the process of entering the Catholic Church, purgatory has definitely always been one of those doctrines that concerned me as a protestant. The more I’ve thought about it and heard the arguments laid out by the Catholic Church the more it actually makes sense. About the thief on the cross: It seems that even if he did go to the beatific vision that literal day (which seems to not have been the case based on what Jesus later tells Mary Magdalene), isn’t it generally understood that the thief on the cross went through a baptism of blood in which case if he was baptized immediately before death, there would be no purgatory for him to go through. That shouldn’t be shocking to anyone and says nothing about the status of purgatory itself.

[@TruthHasSpoken]

Scripture: Nothing unclean can enter heaven. When we die, we die in a state of sin, having the inclination to sin. Even protestants will have their souls cleansed before entering heaven. Purgation. They never think about it but the fact is true. So too, the Church doesn't teach how long this process is, as we are outside of space and time at that point. And theologians say as well, that we would rather be there than here on earth. What denomination or belief are you coming from?

[@TheCatholicNerd]

Loving your podcast and then binge listening to it. I just wanted to point out about the good thief, I believe St. Augustine also holds the view that he was instantly in heaven due to his purgation here on Earth. In fact, Augustine considers him a martyr since he confessed Christ while on the cross and was with Jesus when most of the disciples weren't. Food for thought.

[@jakubratajczak9269]

Sirach 2:4-5. 4 Accept whatever befalls you, and in times of humiliation be patient. 5 For gold is tested in the fire, and those found acceptable, in the furnace of humiliation.

[@GodSoLoved.Yeshua]

On Earth... Read the rest of the scriptures... God says our faith is tested on Earth..

[@BrittanySmith-v1f]

Cradle-Catholic-turned-Protestant-but-turning-back-to-Catholicism here. (To learn church history is truly to cease being Protestant) I have two questions/comments regarding the purgation process/the need to detach from sin before entering the presence of God. First, part of my journey back to the Church has involved binging your podcast lol. In one episode that touched on Trinitarian theology, (I think one of the ones on Mormonism?) You mentioned that even while Jesus was incarnate here on Earth, He was also still in Heaven as part of the Trinity. I’m not saying it’s proof against purgatory, I’m more just wondering as kind of an aside, but is it possible that when Jesus told the good thief, “Today you will be with me in paradise”, he meant me as in the entire trinity in heaven? My second question is more directly related to the purgative process. From my Protestant perspective, I believe sin cannot be present in God’s glory, but I think I just kind of always assumed that our sins were left behind with our fleshly bodies to be dealt with when God gives us our glorified bodies, while our souls went directly to heaven? I’m not really trying to defend that position, since I’m realizing now that this is probably just something I assumed not based on anything really solid, but can you give some clarification as to why this couldn’t be the case?

[@GumbyJumpOff]

Interesting questions. Deep waters. Wish I could give you good answers! I will say, that I've seen that Catholicism respects the human body. We are not just a soul with a body, but a body-soul composite. So I don't think God would want to separate them and treat them as distinct. Also, I have read of mystics who had contact with souls in Purgatory, that they have joy as well as suffering. Joy at anticipating the Beatific Vision and all of Heaven, definitely. And that God can and does show mercy on them. It isn't only pain and suffering, it seems.

[@TruthHasSpoken]

"I believe sin cannot be present in God’s glory" Not only sin, but neither the inclination to sin. " I just kind of always assumed that our sins were left behind with our fleshly bodies" The soul animates the body. It is the source of the intellect and will. Hence, it's the soul that needs to be cleansed of all inclination to sin.

[@mac3441]

Its clear Protestants think we have a really rigid, well defined teaching about where it is, what it’s like, and how long it takes than we actually do. I like to think about purgatory as a sort of rational process of letting go of your attachment to sin (this is how I read the Great Divorce), a process that hurts and keeps us from fully participating in the beatific vision.. I’m not committed to that idea, I’m wide open to what it really is, but I’m completely confident this doctrine makes rational sense given orthodox Christian soteriology.

[@mikekayanderson408]

It’s mysticism that leads you astray @@po18guy

[@treeckoniusconstantinus]

The mentions of the Divine Council made me think: Joe, you should consider doing a video on the late Dr. Michael Heiser's work on the Divine Council in the Bible, both because it's seen a swell in popularity in certain apologetical ministries and because there seems to have been little-to-no interaction with it in Catholic cirlces other than a few mentions of Dr. Heiser's books by Jimmy Akin when talking about the Nephilim. In general, there seems to be quite a bit of confusion about whether any of Dr. Heiser's work is compatible with Catholic teaching re: the Divine Council. God bless!

[@allthewhile]

There's an episode by the Catholic Brothers on this topic.

[@TitusKingdom]

I've heard of his books and was very intrigued but was worried about it twisting the gospel into something ridiculous. There's plenty of occult stuff out there doing that already

[@TheThreatenedSwan]

The implication by not believing in purgatory for many protestants particularly evangelicals is that all sin is mortal. Not believing in it also makes a mess or verses like that you can be saved through fire with only your bad works (sin) being destroyed and that you will be held accountable for every bad word. But I agree that they mostly actually do believe in purgatory in essence, they just refuse to acknowledge the name and historical reality in the doctrine of the Church because of Catholicism

[@Forester-]

Many protestants can't accept purgatory full stop because it's entirely incompatible with justification through imputed righteousness and total human depravity.

[@sivad1025]

There's a line between "You're saved and all saved people sin so you don't need to worry about your sin" and "You would never being living in sin like this if you were saved, so you must not have been saved to begin with" that Protestants are terrible at articulating. As a Protestant, I've found this to be paralyzing because it gives you constant anxiety over your rightness with God. In a sense, you're correct that Protestants treat all sin as mortal. My dad makes my eyes roll with the "all sin is equally bad" line. But Protestants do understand that not all sin is equal, they just are completely arbitrary in articulating how it works

[@TheThreatenedSwan]

@@sivad1025 Imo it is similar to the degenerate authority structure as it relates to tradition and sola scriptura among many protestants. Both protestants and Catholics have traditions and they have interpreters, expedient means to transmit that tradition, but protestants have an aversion to calling a spade a spade, so they say "oh, we just follow whatever the Bible says" instead of identifying that the process in reality is similar to that of any religion with different authorities and traditions, instead of identifying that it is the oral transmission of explaining what the words mean by their parents, pastors, community. Many more learned protestants try to adhere to something more like what their forebears did which is that there is some sort of authority in a visible Church and a necessary continuity of tradition that carries the essence of Christian doctrine because otherwise how could you figure out what the words are _supposed_ to mean. That is at the heart of much of the conflict where group identity and antagonism prevents people from getting at the essence of what's meant and what justification they give. Protestants have the same kind of things Catholics do just from a different source, and a rose by any other name...

[@sivad1025]

@@TheThreatenedSwan I agree. This is a primary reason why I will probably be Cathilic this Easter. My beliefs on salvation and mortal/venial sin were in practice the same as the Catholics since the Protestant tradition (and it's definitely a tradition) has a sense of some sins indicating lack of salvation. It's all so unprincipled though. If I'm going to rely on tradition, I may as well go back to the fathers and the majority belief of the church for the first millennium.

[@tewkewl]

We don't believe in purgatory. It is not logical. if it is a place of secondary sanctification, then all must go there because no one lives a perfect life. No one is fully sanctified at time of death. Even St. Paul would be there. There are no verses that prove purgatory. The references I've read provided by my Catholic brothers, when read in context, do not prove purgatory at all. If anything purgatory is this earth... we are supposed to be sanctified from time of conversion to time of death. No one is made completely sinless at time of death. The key is that Christ has COVERED all of our sins and when we stand before God, our sins are no longer counted against us as Christ paid the full penalty. We are not pure or holy because of "good works we had done" but because of His Grace. So you can believe in purgatory all you want, but it's basically a waste of time since it's not actually doing anything.

[@n41698m]

Same. I feel like Protestant “imputation” theology would lend itself even more to purgatory, since justification is God declaring a sinner righteous rather than the sinner actually becoming righteous, if that makes sense

[@tewkewl]

Actually the opposite, Protestant theology makes it so purgatory is even LESS logical. If there is a purgatory everyone should go as no is perfect at the time of death. having said that, catholics argue that nothing impure can enter heaven? no one on their own is pure. but protestants say what makes us pure isn't our works... it's christ. works can't make you pure. they can make you more christ-like, but your purity isn't earned, it's given as a gift when you place your life in the hands of Christ. We essentially are covered in Christ, so when God looks at us, he sees his Son and not our own sins. The Good Works we do are not salvific or somehow cleansing or purifying us, but rather, they are fruits of the holy spirit who already lives in us. You guys believe you must do good works to some how prove that you are a follower of God and thereby if you are consistent with it, you are saved when you die. protestants believe you are already saved when you become a christian and your good works are a display of Christ in us. If you have no works, there is a good chance you were never saved to begin with. It's a different perspective but from an outside observer, it leads to the same kind of lifestyle of good works.

[@jas84173]

I think it could be argued that Hebrews could just as easily be citing 4 Maccabees which was also in the Septuagint tradition and is historically in the Orthodox Bible appendix. This book focuses more specifically on the martyrdom of the seven brothers than even 2 Maccabees. How do we know which book was used really in Hebrews?

[@amcasci]

In regards1 Corinthians and the fire, I suggest that the context teaches that Paul is referring to teachers of the Gospel, priests, pastors, bishops whatever you choose to call them. These are building doctrine on the foundation of Christ and the apostles. These must be very careful how they build for their teaching will impact the hearers of the teaching. Such teachers cannot mingle true teaching with false, gold with straw. They will be saved but the straw will be burned up. I believe it is their false teaching that is burned away, not them. Bearing of this on purgatory is uncertain. It is a warning to those who are teachers of the faith. Thanks for your thoughtful discussion.

[@tewkewl]

i agree, but it's not just teachers, it's anyone. anyones works will be burned away... if they have accepted christ they will barely make it into heaven, but their worldy works will amount to nothing because they were not godly.

[@YankeeWoodcraft]

Whenever I got into the typical "if it's not in the bible, we can't believe in it!' arguments, I'd ask them one simple question: "Can you show me in The Bible where The Bible is in The Bible and if you can't, do we have to stop believing in it?" [crickets chirping]

[@gilberturesti338]

I liked your discussion too many protestants ignore or really can't answer purification from our sins at the moment of our death.

[@ContendingEarnestly]

And that is sheer nonsense. What catholics can't answer is showing us where any verse says we still have any attachment to sin after we are dead.

[@violetd3487]

They're stuck on 'bible alone' which is unbiblical. Not gonna waste my time.

[@Lebanese-Breeze]

1.If it’s outside of time how do you leave? Wouldn’t someone dwell there for eternity 2. If perfection is required to avoid/bypass purgatory everyone has to go and suffer 3.Maccabees was before Christ so there’s no atonement and they’re bond by the mosaic law and idolatry is a Mortal sin so how would you be saved 4. Why would Jesus have to suffer a horrific death if God could just use purgatory to cleanse all who sin but believe in him 5. How is it mercy to induce temporary torture and suffering quoted church fathers such as Augustine and others claim the smallest pains of purgatory exceed the greatest pains imaginable on earth

[@TruthHasSpoken]

A. one dies in a state of sin, with the inclination to sin. B. However, perfection is required BEFORE entering heaven. And ther is a process from A to B after death. Catholics have a word for the process. Protestants - most - never really thing about it.

[@RandomUninspiredDude]

@@TruthHasSpokenyou didn’t answer any of the questions

[@violetd3487]

​@@RandomUninspiredDude This is your cue to find things out for yourself.

[@itsmejeremy7]

I made a few comments here but I do want to say the guy doing this video was enjoyable to listen through subjects I don’t agree with and respectfully presenting his positions and I do appreciate that. What’s funny for me is that I can’t find an “evangelical” Christian that agrees with how I see the Bible either because I believe we can walk away from the faith the Bible seems painfully clear about that subject to me when reading the New Testament. I also believe that how we live shows what kind of faith we have if it’s real or not, I’ve read it can be said “works don’t save but a saved person works”. I just read James this morning and it’s very clear that real faith works. It doesn’t conclude that we are paying for our sins though in any form, these I see to be very different things being mixed together wrongfully. And I do not and could not with a clear conscious claim to understand nearly everything in the Bible but what I do understand to be clear is we are saved by faith in Jesus sacrifice for us alone, in hope of the righteousness of God being imputed to us. Reading through Roman as a letter not verse by verse shows clearly faith is the way. Hebrews shows us that we cannot ignore such a salvation and Roman’s also tells us we must put to death the deeds of the flesh. James shows us real faith works and if we put that all together it’s what I believe. The purgatory debate seems to be one of those conversations were told is vain babbling other than the fact that pushing purgatory, everybody would admit, encourages a life of sin because there is no real need to change one’s life here now and they believe they can pay for their own sins later which is not at all what the Bible teaches from what I’ve read myself. Let me end though again with thank you for the grace in your speech when explaining your thoughts. I pray we all come to the true knowledge of the truth! ❤

[@StanleyPinchak]

The Lord knows that even the righteous stumble at times. “For a just man shall fall seven times, and shall rise again: but the wicked shall fall down into evil.” (Pro 24:16, DRC) We are called to love one another and to pray for each other for our salvation. “Confess therefore your sins one to another: and pray one for another, that you may be saved. For the continual prayer of a just man availeth much.” (Jam 5:16, DRC) If nothing unclean can enter the presence of God, yet the same God knows that many of His sheep will fall, certainly He planned for a way for them to be cleansed of this attachment to sin. Jesus says it takes the form of stripes. “47. And that servant, who knew the will of his lord and prepared not himself and did not according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. 48. But he that knew not and did things worthy of stripes shall be beaten with few stripes. And unto whomsoever much is given, of him much shall be required: and to whom they have committed much, of him they will demand the more.” (Luk 12:47-48, DRC) The Lord chastens those who He loves. “Such as I love, I rebuke and chastise. Be zealous therefore and do penance.” (Rev 3:19, DRC)

[@EugeneEmmaKatalemwa]

I would like to help clarify about purgatory. It good to first understand the Catholic teaching of purgatory. Purgatory in brief is for those who have died in a state of venial sin so that they may be purified since no one goes to heaven when he or she is not pure. These have the hope of experiencing the beatific vision. Hell is for those who lived their lives on earth in a state of mortal sin.( unrepentant sinner). These have no hope of the beatific vision. Therefore the doctrine of purgatory does not encourage sin since no unrepentant sinner goes there. Purgatory is all about God's love for us. Just imagine if those with venial sins would go directly to hell, how many would be worthy of going to heaven?

[@jas84173]

I remember this argument Geisler made in his book Roman Catholics and Evangelicals Agreements and Disagreements where he argues that the Council of Trent accepted 2 Maccabees yet rejected 2(4) Esdras on dogmatic issues regarding the prayers for the dead. Apparently there was a section on the latter which had been lost and rediscovered (2[4] Esdras 7:105) in the 19th century which was probably torn out at some point in the middle ages because it denies prayers for the dead. Geisler claimed the Council of Trent inconsistently accepted all of the apocrypha besides 1(3) Esdras, 2(4) Esdras, and the Prayer of Manasseh. They were prior to Trent in the Old Testament with the other apocrypha but following their exclusion Pope Clement Vlll placed them in an appendix to the Vulgate "lest they utterly perish". The verse of 2(4) Esdras is as follows. ‭‭ 2 Esdras‬ ‭7:105‬ ‭RSVCI‬‬ [105] so no one shall ever pray for another on that day, neither shall any one lay a burden on another; for then every one shall bear his own righteousness or unrighteousness.”

[@UrielAngeli147]

Even if we accept this... Did he somehow miss "on that day"? As in, "on the day of (final) judgement"? This is exactly why we distinguish particular and final judgement. Also, still not an argument against Purgatory.

[@GodSoLoved.Yeshua]

@UrielAngeli147 The cross✝️ is the argument against purgatory. Jesus bore our sins as the scriptures say, He took OUR punishment. Purgatory contradicts his finished work, we can't pray passed souls into heaven.

[@UrielAngeli147]

@@GodSoLoved.Yeshua You show that you do not understand the doctrine of purgatory. No one believes you can save souls who are dead by praying for them, or indeed that one may save any soul at all by one's own efforts. Except, perhaps, people who are utterly ignorant of theology.

[@maryloomis8075]

There are several ways to be baptized...dying for Christ: baptism of blood (martyrdom), Baptism with water and baptism of desire. Please address these with the thought of how the good thief may have gone to heaven "today". He would have all sin removed at this baptism and so, a clean soul ready to go to heaven? Is this the possibility?

[@darlameeks]

1 John 3:2 "Most beloved, we are now the sons of God. But what we shall be then has not yet appeared. We know that when he does appear, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is." Question: This seems to say that we will not, or cannot, be perfectly conformed to Christ *until* we see him. This also seems to be referring to the bodily Resurrection. What are your thoughts on this verse? Also, Scripture says that, at the time of the bodily Resurrection, the dead in Christ will rise first, and then those who remain will be caught up in the clouds with the Lord. - 1 Thess. 4:13-18. (No, I don't believe in the "rapture" as some Protestants often describe it. That is for another discussion, I think.)

[@SteadyGardener]

Can’t wait to watch! You’ve helped melt away a lot of anxious objections as I discern Catholicism. Was just thinking of a possible objection yesterday and I wonder if it’ll be addressed here. Essentially, if purgatory involves an imperfectly sanctified (but Heaven bound) person and purgatory is to purify them and slowly break them away from their attachments to sin, do they still have their free will in purgatory (as much as they did in life)? Are they still able to choose to resist? Obviously they’re already deemed to enter eternity with God eventually. But if the purgative process involves the free will, and whether we resist or lean into God‘s graces, I’m just not sure how purgatory can be deemed to lead directly to heaven, if someone could still resist God. (Edit: not that they would intentionally resist God, but let’s say that they just really have a hard time letting go of X proclivity/sin). Would that just continuously prolong their time there? I just don’t understand how free will works in purgatory and how much someone can resist or not resist. Not trying to sound obstinate! Just legitimately curious.

[@onlylove556]

That is a good question. I think it comes down to if Purgatory is even a physical place, are how long does the process last. Bc it could be in an instant, or it could be a longer process. However if it's not a place, & is another realm, or someplace where we know we're going to automatically go to heaven afterwards. Then we would want to go through that process with our freewill, knowing how the rich man and Lazarus were living in Sheol. The Richman was begging to get water, and praying for his family not to come to that place he was in. So in Purgatory you're going to do everything you can to get out of there, to receive the true Love, & the fullness of God. Anyways that's how I see it, with the question you presented.

[@crusaderACR]

I think that if you were completely resistant to the idea of being purged for sin, God would know, and you'd be in Hell instead. Because souls that don't want Heaven, no matter how much time or punishment is given, go there.

[@cronmaker2]

The orientation of the will is fixed at death, that's why those in heaven/purgatory can't sin and the damned can only sin. Those in purgatory also can no longer merit. That doesn't mean there's no free will, those in heaven will have an infinite plurality of goods to choose (as God is goodness itself), not just one (determinism).

[@crusaderACR]

@@cronmaker2 I'm not so sure about the merit part. I'm not disagreeing, I'm just not sure and hesitate to be so hasty. We know that the Saints in Heaven pray for us and worship the Lord (as we see in Revelation) We also know that Heaven AND Earth are not going to last forever ("Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will not pass away" Mat 8:35), when Judgment Day comes everyone will be judged, Heaven and Earth will dissolve, and we'll be joined in what's called the General Resurrection in the "New Jerusalem". Meaning, there will be two judgments for most of us. One immediately after death, and another at the End Times. All of this is to say, that while those in Heaven cannot sin, they may still accrue merit to get even greater glory after that, given that there seems to be a hierarchy. I'm likely wrong somewhere. I don't know where to check to see what the Church says on the matter.

[@cronmaker2]

@@crusaderACR sure I'm referring to merit for ones self, ones degree of glory is fixed at death. I don't disagree saints can apply/pray for merit for others still on earth. As cath encyc states (not sure if similar statement can be found in Denzinger or historical catechisms) - "The agent who merits must fulfil two conditions: He must be in the state of pilgrimage (status viœ) and in the state of grace (status gratiœ). By the state of pilgrimage is to be understood our earthly life; death as a natural (although not an essentially necessary) limit, closes the time of meriting. The time of sowing is confined to this life; the reaping is reserved for the next, when no man will be able to sow either wheat or cockle. Comparing the earthly life with day and the time after death with night, Christ says: "The night cometh, when no man can work [operari]" (John 9:4; cf. Ecclesiastes 11:3; Sirach 14:17). The opinion proposed by a few theologians (Hirscher, Schell), that for certain classes of men there may still be a possibility of conversion after death, is contrary to the revealed truth that the particular judgment (judicium particulare) determines instantly and definitively whether the future is to be one of eternal happiness or of eternal misery (cf. Kleutgen, "Theologie der Vorzeit", II, 2nd ed., Münster, 1872, pp. 427 sqq.)."

[@aussierob7177]

Purgatory is in the Bible. It is in one of the Deuterocanonical Books removed by Martin Luther at the Reformation.

[@TriciaPerry-mz7tc]

No. It is not. Lord Jesus have mercy.

[@chrismoellering695]

How come we never see John 13 (washing the Apostles’ feet) used in support of purgatory? It seems to fit to me.

[@michaeljefferies2444]

Thanks for interacting with my comment about temporal punishment. I appreciate the biblical answer for the concept of spiritual discipline as a punishment. I’m a Catholic, not a Protestant, so in the past I have justified the temporal punishment is that the punishment of my sin and the cleansing are the same. If it hadn’t been for my sin and sinful dispositions, I wouldn’t need the cleansing in the first place. The idea that you get one without the other seems wrongheaded.

[@sivad1025]

I'm protestant, but I think the idea of differentiating forgiveness and reconciliation to be coherent. In our lives, we can forgive people who wrong us, but usually pain is involved in restoring the relationship and fixing the damage caused. I can imagine temporal punishment being the natural consequence of reconciliation with God

[@wingedlion17]

The satan in Job was not this single devil character which developed much later. He is the divine prosecutor working for God. That’s why he is able to meet with the sons of God in heaven. This is standard, biblical scholarship outside of very conservative circles.

[@sivad1025]

That's the rabbinic Jewish interpretation. But I'm hesitant to rely on modern rabbinic Jews since their theology is deliberately anti-Christian

[@StanleyPinchak]

@@sivad1025 I have always wondered about the pedestal the masoretic text gets placed upon, considering that its scribes and interpreters (vowel pointing) are confessed Antichrists in the most literal fashion. Why should they be given greater weight than the Essenes or the Alexandrian or Coptic Jewish traditions. The Essenes in particular have a seeming continuity with the Early Church.

[@mlp023]

I want to reply to @huntsman528 about the coal. When you apply heat and pressure to a lump of coal, after its purified, you are left with a diamond; the strongest mineral. When our souls are purified of its venial sins and attachments, it's left worthy of God's presence. That's how I have understood this Bible passage.

[@pstrzel]

I would love to hear your take on the NDE accounts making rounds on social media. I'm very cautious listening to them. In fact, I usually click away when I encounter anything that seems to contradict my Catholic beliefs, but I seem to drawn back every few years. I know we don't need private revelation (which I consider NDE's to be) to work out our salvation, but why the seeming rise in the frequency of these accounts? Are they an act of mercy towards the lukewarm and unbelievers or perhaps just a demonic deception (I heard one claiming there is no hell)? Some are probably just good old fashioned fraud.

[@pstrzel]

@user-ij4vv9oj2t I would caution you on the slapping of people, especially if you don't know them, what weapons they might be carrying or what the laws of your jurisdiction might be ;-). There are many people who don't believe in hell because they don't want to face their sin or they even deny that there is sin. I doubt practicing homosexuals or other grave sinners want to go to hell, so they simply justify their sin and assume that everyone goes to heaven or nowhere at all. My concern is that these NDE's can potentially discourage sinners from mending their ways. Even when these "dead" persons are shown hell of some sort, they always get out of it. There's no finality, because they always come back to life. Whether hell is mentioned or not, the message seems to be "don't be afraid, there is a heaven". Although many NDE's mention the "life review", none seem to suggest purgatory.

[@mzmPACman]

I believe they are both. I am drawn to them as well and my approach is to measure them against the Bible. If they are congruent with His Word---probably a legitimate private revelation. If they seem to contradict His word, promote some form of universalism, or deny the identity of Christ---watch out. FWIW I think the vast majority of NDE experiences involving hell are probably real. Heaven or the afterlife---those get a little bit more kooky because I think that's where demons can deceive people by telling them what they want to hear.

[@michaeljefferies2444]

Dr. Jordan Cooper did a run down of these in several videos on his channel. He’s a Lutheran but he ultimately drew a connection between the experiences and toll houses in Eastern Orthodox theology. Essentially there are demons and angels battling for your soul, and his theory is that the people who profess universalist or religious indifferentist attitudes are being demonically deceived. It was a super interesting series.

[@mzmPACman]

I've listened to both of them and agree, super interesting! @@michaeljefferies2444

[@okj9060]

Is plain language not correct though in John 6?

[@sodetsurikomigoshi2454]

1John1:7 can be read in light of Hebrews 9:26. Did Luther want to remove Hebrews...?

[@davidmccarroll8274]

By what biblical authority can you support pergatory.Give me a reference

[@iggyantioch]

Biblical authority? The Catholic Church 😊 The biblical verses, watch the video or just ask a Church Father. St. Jerome is a good one So is St. Augustine. Blessings.

[@davidmccarroll8274]

@@iggyantioch Purgatory is unbiblical and there are no verses to support it so my challenge and question stands .please give me a verse from the Bible to support the existence of Purgatory .If you cannot then I respectfully suggest studying the Bible yourself rather than relying on church traditions.God bless

[@iggyantioch]

David. Good morning 🌅 Thanks for your comment. You asked for a biblical authority, I gave you one. As far as biblical verses I referred you to the video. Joe goes through the objections like yours. Comment sections are not a great place to build a defense. You say that Purgatory is umbilical.ok. You're not Catholic or Orthodox I'm assuming so I get it. The argument from the Church Fathers that I gave you was to show you another viewpoint closer in time to the gathering of Cannon and development of Christian doctrine. Augustine due to his being championed by many non Catholics, And Jerome due to the fact he recommended against the Catholic cannon in favor of Luther while remaining I n the Church. They both site Scripture to support there views on the subject. As does almost every other Christian Father of that period. Tradition isn't in your wheelhouse? Why not?. So when you say" un biblical" I say where does it say it has to be explicitly stated to take the doctrine and believe in it. So re capping. Authority=the Church , otherwise you are the authority. Verses =watch the video he goes through objections like yours better than me Joe six pack. Unbiblica= Bible+Tradition+ the teaching Authority of the church

[@davidmccarroll8274]

@@iggyantioch thankyou for your comments god bless !!!

[@iggyantioch]

Always welcomed! Stay safe

[@ryanb4780]

I'd love to see a video on the Trinity in the Bible

[@StanleyPinchak]

See Sam Shamoun he covered this recently

[@timboslice980]

Even when i was a protestant i imagined some process by which we had to be made clean before entering heaven. I envisioned it sort of like a drop of christ's blood falling on oir spiritual image everytime we sin. At judgement day, all that blood thats been dropping on our heads has made us a horror show and if we truly belived in Christ, hed say "lets get him cleaned up and get him inside" Now that im Catholic, i understand that process much better but just going off a sola scriptura mentality i still came to believe in purgatory in a basic way.

[@rishanborrymbai1104]

Yup this is what happens when we trust only on one side i.e. men knowledge & thoughts faded away and we think that even God's knowledge & thoughts is like men 🤦 . So to say we trust men thoughts more than what God has already done.

[@sivad1025]

Same. I'm in RCIA now and am becoming increasingly more convinced by the Catholic view of purgatory. But even as an anti-Catholic protestsnt, I believed CS Lewis view of purgatory. It seems self evident from Jesus' teachings on salvation

[@ri3m4nn]

​@@sivad1025lolwat

[@ri3m4nn]

Yeah, it's called the second coming when we're raised from the dead.

[@timboslice980]

@ri3m4nn Nah even as a protestant it's obvious that we enter heaven before the day of judgement. Hebrews says we are surrounded by a cloud witnesses that cheer us on. In Revelation, John's vision of heaven is before the destruction of the temple so the saints are there active and alive all before the 2nd coming. There has to be a way for them to be clean, enter heaven, join the cloud of witnesses, and all before the 2nd coming. So what is that process? No unclean thing may enter, we are made clean by Christ's sacrifice. That process by which the purging of sin happens, if given a name would be properly called purgatory. Protestsnts react strongly to that word because of the myths built up around it. Most catholics don't belive it lasts thousands of years or is some hellish place of torture. Just simply a process and we haven't got a clue how long it takes or how much the purification hurts. If at all.

[@carolzappa1804]

40:25 AMEN .

[@jakubratajczak9269]

I think Saint Dismas repented in front of the Lord, had faith in Him, was purified by suffering and baptized by blood, aka became martyr.

[@frederickanderson1860]

We are purged like gold in the fire.

[@RandomUninspiredDude]

Just sounds like hell to me.

[@ToddJambon]

In P1471-1472 of the Catechism, it seems to suggest that Purgatory is temporal punishment due to sin. But you are saying that the duration of Purgatory is not the question; it's whether or not purgation is necessary. Can you clarify?

[@Chicken_of_Bristol]

Temporal punishment is named in contrast to eternal punishment (of being completely incapable of being in communion with God). The important part of temporal punishment is that it is temporary, not that the process for removal of it takes any particular length of time to complete.

[@darrellperez1029]

Nothing unpure enters heaven. So if you die and have Unconfessed sins, you enter purgatory until you are purified to enter. One of my understandings. And those morals sins though forgiven, we still have venal sins. Those are still unpure.

[@ToddJambon]

I'm Catholic and believe in Purgatory. I'm just stuck on the idea that Purgatory might be less about time and more about just something happening that cleanses us. I've always learned that you spend time in purgatory. And people often joke about a tough event taking time off their purgatory. But here, Joe seems to be saying that we don't have to agree that purgatory is a temporal thing.@@darrellperez1029

[@StanleyPinchak]

@@po18guy Shouldn't you be dying not to know.

[@amcasci]

Surely Christ is present in purgatory if there is one since He is always everywhere present since He is the omnipresent God in the flesh. If He is present in the Eucharist, He is surely also present in purgatory.

[@clarekuehn4372]

The first one was great. Please link to it in the description below the video and to this in that one. @shamelesspopery

[@TruthHasSpoken]

We die in a state of sin yet when we enter heaven, nothing unclean can enter it (Rev 21). Thus, our soul is 100% cleansed of all desire to sin. Protestants believe the same. Catholics have a word for this process. Few protestants however ever think of the subject, understanding neither the scriptural basis for it nor the belief as taught through the ages. Doesn't help them either that they are missing 7 books of the Old Testament in bibles.

[@lu-vly]

Those 7 books you speak of have gross errors in geography, history, and theology. Such as Purgatory...not mentioned in the bible...gross errors again and again.

[@TruLuan]

The word "Trinity" isn't in the Bible either. The word "Bible" isn't even in the Bible. These are coined terms to define a teaching that always existed. There is another video that is really good titled "Proof of Purgatory part 1: Twenty two bible verses." I suggest you watch that one as well. @@lu-vly

[@lu-vly]

@@TruLuan Thanks but I will stick with scripture if I want the truth.

[@TruLuan]

@@lu-vly same that's why there are over 20 scriptures that prove purgatory. Just because you choose willful ignorance doesn't mean the scriptures don't exist.

[@bethanyjohnson8001]

@@lu-vlyAnd I’ll stick with the Church Our Lord founded which gave us the Bible and determines how to define and interpret it.

[@abudavid5929]

Then how can someone now live a life without going to purgatory. How can I live a life that when I die I will go to heaven without passing through purgatory.

[@violetd3487]

If you reach the transformative union which is the highest form of prayer, you will stop sinning. It is that stage in spiritual life where your will is so aligned to God that you become fully obedient to Him. The second way is offering your life itself through martyrdom. Yes, it is possible to skip purgatory. And don't forget penances and mortification as part of prayer.

[@manuelpompa-u5e]

the roman catholic doctrine of purgatory was not established until 1274.

[@BigDaddyCatholic]

Question: Mathew 11:11 John the Baptist greatest born of women, yet least in kingdom of heaven are greater….would this imply John (greatest), even he would have to go through purgation to be, at a minimum, among the least in heaven?

[@castillo184]

Purgatory was added and written in the bible with a shapie

[@castillo184]

@@po18guy no religion can make them unreasonable, unable to accept others that are different from them, this is human nature, but human nature mixed with religion seems to be a bad thing, just a thought

[@mikekayanderson408]

No he is saying that purgatory is an addition made by man. @@po18guy

[@StanleyPinchak]

Yes, by Jesus at the pen of Luke. “47. And that servant, who knew the will of his lord and prepared not himself and did not according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. 48. But he that knew not and did things worthy of stripes shall be beaten with few stripes. And unto whomsoever much is given, of him much shall be required: and to whom they have committed much, of him they will demand the more.” (Luk 12:47-48, DRC)

[@angelahull9064]

You either get purified in this life or in the state of purgatory.

[@markhischier2750]

Joe, couldn't the good theif have served his purgation on his cross? He might have had enough time on Earth, durring those hours on his cross, to detach all his attachments, in the presence of Jesus.

[@shamelesspopery]

Yes!

[@rishanborrymbai1104]

The thief believing in Jesus was enough. ‭‭‭‭Colossians‬ ‭1:23‬ ‭ [23] But you must continue to believe this truth and stand firmly in it. Don’t drift away from the assurance you received when you heard the Good News. The Good News has been preached all over the world, and I, Paul, have been appointed as God’s servant to proclaim it.

[@crusaderACR]

@@rishanborrymbai1104 Not merely believing, but having faith. I can grant that, but the topic here isn't whether the thief got saved (he clearly was) it's whether he had attachments to sin that would need to be taken care of before entering the Throne Room. But this good thief not only repented and suffered, he spent the last moments of his life consoling our Lord Jesus Christ in His most dire and painful hour. This saved man may have shed any and all attachments to sin right then and there, and by his death he was welcomed straight into Heaven. Anyway, thing is you got the topics mixed up. We aren't talking about salvation per se.

[@rishanborrymbai1104]

@@crusaderACR Yes. Brother I know the topic and I'm right on the topic. Not drifting away. The thief sin was cleansed by his believed. All his attachments to sin have fallen off because he believed in the son of the living God. Those who are in Christ have become a new creation. New life which is forever. (John 3:16) many more scriptures. Walking in spirit will give us the wisdom of God and not the knowledge of men. To create so many things when we have the Holy Spirit with us and in us. We can ask Him plainly about the purgatory. If our life is right with God and our Spirit life is strong, Holy Spirit does speak. 🙏🙏 Sadly the other thief did not . So to go by Catholicism teachings, this other thief who has not believed in Christ may need the men-made purification called such as PURGATORY. But sadly it's just men's knowledge and not of God. For with God it did not exist. Jesus is the only way to the Father. Anyone who doesn't believe are condemn sadly . Bitter truth. And indeed and His blood is the only way to be saved. Anyone who doesn't believe in the son that He died for our sin and that the Father raised Him from the dead are thrown away to the gnashing of teeth.

[@rishanborrymbai1104]

@@crusaderACR Amen 🙏 brother one manifestation comes out of Purgatory which is a danger when I come to think of it. Purgatory gives way to humans who don't believe in the son of living God to be saved. Which Catholicism is led to believe that a religious person can be saved too even if He does not believe in the son of the living God. Because the person has got a back up. The purgatory to purify him . Religious people coming from Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, etc. All are very religious & good. So Purgatory men's knowledge can supposedly save them by its purification even if they don't follow Christianity . Most priests of Catholicism believed it. Maybe years from now another dogma will come. So each one must be rooted in Christ for indeed there are many leavens of the pharisees that we have to be careful of. Shalom. May the Lord be with you.

[@carolzappa1804]

Q. What more could you ask when you have everything? Q To be the One Who created everything, and to have His Power. 😎

[@The_name105]

Jesus says, "(Luke 7:47)Wherefore I say unto thee, Her sins, which are many, are forgiven; for she loved much: but to whom little is forgiven, the same loveth little." So if we develope our capacity to experience love throughout this life and that dictates our reward in heaven but also those unforgiven sins are purged in purgatory then: The more unforgiven sin you have, the more purgatory (less capacity for love) and lower place in heaven. While, the more forgiven sin you have, the more love (less purgatory) and higher place in heaven. In other words we forgive out of love and are forgiven therefore by God out of love. The more forgiveness we give the more God can give us forgiveness. This is also how God says he "hates" certain things. These things are unable to receive or give love therefore his love cannot reach them. Such as sin. Also just as God has freedom in himself and he sets us free but we were once slaves to sin, God's freedom cannot reach slavery (to sin). The more enslaved to sin you are the less freedom you will have. Martin Luther did not realise this about freewill so naturally as the principal extends to all other matters in the faith he would reject Purgatory only seeing the slave and the free and rejecting the notion of the free he could not see a temporary state of purgation in the consequences of these in the afterlife. Nevertheless no matter how enslaved to sin you are the least that you can do is put your faith in Jesus and from there freedom abounds. And to be perfectly bound by sin would mean to be sin itself.

[@kristenheitzmann4550]

Well done. So clearly exposing the machinations Protestants use to twist the pretzel into their view

[@gilberturesti338]

I don't recall the time I heard these words but Satan's greatest longing is to be in the presence of God. Being casted out of heaven was this angelic spirit greatest tragedy.

[@carolzappa1804]

I hear the "plain language" argument (?) all the time..... ..except when it comes to the Gospel of John 6.... then it's Anything but the Plain Language.🤔

[@Kekamalei]

Maybe the thief was cleansed on the cross next to Jesus, temporal punishment.

[@crusaderACR]

Perhaps! Purgation does happen on Earth, it's just that sometimes it isn't finished on Earth. Many Christians rejoice in suffering for a good cause because, well let's just quote Paul here. "And not only that, but we[a] also boast in our sufferings, knowing that suffering produces endurance, 4 and endurance produces character, and character produces hope, 5 and hope does not disappoint us, because God’s love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit that has been given to us." - Romans 5:3-5 Then the famous "but through fire" verse you already heard before implies just that, after death cleansing. And not only that! It also helps other Christians! Apparently. Can't tell you how that happens, let's just quote Paul again. "I am now rejoicing in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I am completing what is lacking in Christ’s afflictions for the sake of his body, that is, the church." - Colossians 1:24 Some Protestants may find it uncomfortable how Paul says Christ's afflictions were "lacking" but that's what the text says. We contribute to Christendom as we suffer. It helps us, and helps others. As purgation may continue _after_ death, then it may help those in that situation, similarly to how our prayers seem to work somehow. Idk the specifics of _how_ we'd help in such a thing, but I guess God just left that to us to speculate. May God bless you forever.

[@williammcenaney1331]

Maybe Job's author uses a metaphor what God asks Satan where he's been. After all, the Devil replies that he's walking on earth. But how much literal sense does it make to say that an angel walks anywhere when angels don't occupy space? If angels don't take up space, they don't travel either, since travelers go from one place to another. So, maybe the Bible means that God changed the condition Satan and the other fallen angels were when St. Michael expelled them from some heaven or other. I write "some heaven or other" because the Bible describes three of them. Since a flawed person can't see God face to face, it's hard to believe expelled the fallen angel from the heaven where the blessed live. When I can't get to Holy Mass, I ask my guardian to go there for me. But he knows I talk figuratively then. For him to "be there," he can merely think about the Mass. That's why I don't imagine that he flies beside me when I move around.

[@amcasci]

The discipline the church imposes IS the discipline of God…it is called the office of the keys. Our Lord does all things through means. The church is the means through which he imposes both grace and discipline.

[@voxangeli9205]

PURGATORY IS ALL ABOUT THE LAST STAGE OF SANCTIFICATION FOR THE ELECT BOUND FOR HEAVEN, WHEREBY JESUS HIMSELF, BEING THE PURIFYING FIRE, WILL DO THE JOB OF ULTIMATELY CLEANSING THEM INTO ABSOLUTE PERFECTION AND HOLINESS, NECESSARY TO ENTER HEAVEN. AS CHRIST HAS SAID: "YOU SHOULD BE PERFECT, AS MY FATHER IN HEAVEN IS PERFECT."

[@voxangeli9205]

@@po18guy, surely, because the Elect are not as such.

[@itsmejeremy7]

“Holy souls in purgatory”? And then after saying not all have to go to purgatory because not all solved their sin problem before dying. NOBODY dies having made themselves perfect, Jesus is the only way our sins can and ever will be paid for and passed over in Gods sight, and we must put to death the lusts of our flesh and continue in the faith holding onto the hope of receiving the righteousness of God. That being said, we have no part in paying for our sins, this is a major misunderstanding and taking away from what Jesus came to do. Yes I agree we have work to do on ourselves and there is discipline for the sons of God and those who are not disciplined are not sons. To believe that some people actually end their life with perfect ways actions thoughts and intentions is to misunderstand the flaws of us as human beings. I say this while admitting we MUST put to death the deeds of the flesh and walk according to the Spirit. This is not a simple topic but that doesn’t mean we can turn it into us paying for our own sins even if it’s stated as it’s just a small bit of the payment.

[@tabandken8562]

Jesus already did the paying for all of us. He paid the part that we could not pay. That doesn't mean that we don't get punished for our sins. Nobody is doing anything on their own. Jesus does it all. That is Catholic teaching. He needs your will. You need to be willing to cooperate with Him. And yes, it's possible to die in perfect sanctifying Grace.

[@timburns201]

sound quality is bad.

[@StanleyPinchak]

It is just your setup

[@tewkewl]

you guys can believe in purgatory if you want. i've read many of the verses in context and none of them prove purgatory. If there is purgatory, then everyone should go... no one is perfect. The apostle paul should, indeed, find himself in purgatory till the Day of Judgement. Therefore, it really doesn't make sense. A lot of this hinges on corinthians where it says one will suffer loss if their works don't hold up. It is NOT talking about literally suffering some sort of loss after death. it is saying that what you built up in life with your faulty works (after accepting christ, you go off and live like a hollywood star, and not truly living a Godly life, but make millions), whatever you built up in life will be burned away and you will have nothing to show for it essentially. you will make it to heaven because you relied on God's grace, but just barely (as escaping through flames). It doesn't literally mean that you'll be tested in fire and will literally escape through flames.

[@TruthHasSpoken]

"Therefore, it really doesn't make sense. " Scripture: nothing unclean will enter heaven. When you die, you die in a state of sin, having the inclination to sin. This will be stripped away from your soul, after death and before heaven. it really -doesn't- makes _perfect_ sense. " :)

[@itsmejeremy7]

If you blatantly ignore Gods will and don’t keep the faith but drift and don’t put to death the deeds of the flesh and our lusts then we are not going to end up with Jesus in heaven. All these circles of explaining trying to make people feel secure in their sins because it tells them they can just pay for it later when that goes against everything I read in the Bible. There is therefore now no condemnation to those who ARE IN CHRIST JESUS, not to those who pay for their sins themselves. I agree with you more than most “Protestants” as you keep calling us (I’m not protesting anything I’m just reading the Bible and going by what I see) that we cannot continue in sin we must put to death the lust of the flesh and we must continue in the faith. This just seems like a lot of convincing yourselves that it’s ok if you don’t strive against sin to the point of blood as Paul says we are to keep getting up after getting knocked down and keep fighting and not giving in.

[@tabandken8562]

Purgatory is for those whose sins are forgiven. Because nothing impure can enter heaven. All attachments to sin needs to be gone and all temporal punishments needs to be atoned for. Aiming for purgatory is not the Catholic way. And yes, if you're not a Catholic, but you are a Christian, than you're a Protestant. You're protesting against the Catholic Church by merely being a non-Catholic Christian.

[@yonlee6960]

👍

[@gbluesrocker]

What did Jesus and his apostles teach about Purgatory? What the Catholic Church is saying is that Jesus didn’t die for all of our sins and only some of them

[@srich7503]

No, not really! And thats probably why you were not asked to be the author of our Catechism. 🤦‍♂

[@TruthHasSpoken]

"What the Catholic Church is saying is that Jesus didn’t die for all of our sins and only some of them" No. Rather, Jesus indeed died for ALL our sins. Jesus dying made heaven POSSIBLE. Yet, nothing unclean can enter heaven (Revelation). When we die, we die in a state of sin, having the inclination to sin. That can not be in heaven. So between death and heaven, our souls are made 100% clean. Catholics have a word for this process. Protestants for the most part, never really think of it - and just assume that "it" happens.

[@RandomUninspiredDude]

@@TruthHasSpokenso essentially you’re paying for what you’re forgiven of. Wow.

[@williammarinelli2363]

Saw that it's an hour long video. I won't take up nearly that much of your time. Purgatory is in the Bible. It is at the foot of the cross. Check out Hebrews 1:3 - "Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, WHEN HE HAD BY HIMSELF PURGED OUR SINS, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high"

[@rishanborrymbai1104]

‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭1:3‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬ [3] And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, Read again when HE "HAD MADE PURIFICATIONS......" It is the sacrifice at the cross which Christ has died for the sin of the world. And nothing beside that.

[@mikekayanderson408]

Amen - Jesus has already purged the sins of believers!!! No more purging needed after we die! We are made or declared righteous when we come to faith. God makes a legal declaration. That is why we are able to approach Him in prayer in Jesus’ Name. We are acceptable to God in and through Jesus whims we have believed in. Jesus has reconciled us to God we are no longer under His wrath. K

[@StringofPearls55]

@@mikekayanderson408 Can you point me to a biblical story that highlights this teaching from the Old or New Testament? Maybe a parable where Jesus teaches this?

[@richardjackson7887]

the good thief on the cross was before Jesus was resurrected and went to put his blood on the mercy seat which is the throne of God1 Behold, the lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world! if you died with Christ you will be resurrected at his return Heb_9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: Joh 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: Joh 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

[@jfgskaintayo8167]

Yes biblical 1Maccabees book( kjv removed)

[@henrytucker7189]

Protestants should not be afraid of purgatory. It doesn’t rob Christ’s atoning work on the cross because purgatory is a post-death sanctification process- not justification process, at least in the sense of the substitutionary atonement. It can easily fit within a Protestant framework. The problem is that it’s “Catholic” 😂

[@michaelbeauchamp22]

This has long been my view. If purgatory exists, then it is for the good of all who go through it. If it does not exist and Christians go straight to Heaven, then it is all the same. Either way, it is God who purifies and saves us

[@ContendingEarnestly]

*Protestants should not be afraid of purgatory.* No one is afraid of that which doesn't exist. *It doesn’t rob Christ’s atoning work on the cross because purgatory is a post-death sanctification process* And that right there is the big lie of the devil you've all bought into. If your sins aren't atoned when you die, its hell not purgatory youre going to, forever. CCC1475 talks about those expiating their sins in purgatory. Expiation is atonement. Its part of the definition of propitiation. And Romans 3:25 tells us Jesus is our propitiation, not you. *It can easily fit within a Protestant framework.* Its unbiblical pure and simple. *The problem is that it’s “Catholic”* The problem is its a lie.

[@michaelbeauchamp22]

@@ContendingEarnestly Someone didn't watch the video?

[@ContendingEarnestly]

@@michaelbeauchamp22 I responded to your points.

[@michaelbeauchamp22]

@@ContendingEarnestly You responded to someone else. And Joe responded to yours

[@amcasci]

Why do you assume that those who prayed for the dead in Maccabees were in fact correct to do so. Did they have a clear command of God to so? Mormons baptize on behalf of the dead. Should we be doing the same simply because they do it

[@UriskClaims]

Purgatory is a Catholic invention, The dead are asleep and ..Jesus will come again to judge the living and the dead...You dont get purified whilst in purgatory or judgement would be unnecessary...

[@shamelesspopery]

Purgatory is a Catholic invention? Well, this is awkward: www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/12446-purgatory

[@haronsmith8974]

If you dont watch the videos, than youre obviously not here for a conversation and just to troll.

[@RandomUninspiredDude]

Sooo God forgives mortal sin, but doesn’t forgive sin that is less than mortal. Weird system of “grace”

[@iggyantioch]

No forgiveness for less than mortal?

[@RandomUninspiredDude]

@@iggyantioch what I get from Catholicism is that mortal since are forgiven completely, but you still have to side for venial sins, which are less than mortal, and go to purgatory and stay based on how many you committed. It didn’t make sense.

[@ThePettiestOfficer_Juan117]

You can’t pay for something Jesus already paid for. John 19:30 Purgatory puts your work on the scales, when the only currency God accepts is His Son’s blood. Purgatory is a pagan doctrine that attempts to appease or bribe the judge of the Universe with a method of payment He’s clear He will not accept. Not to mention it completely violates 1 Corinthians 15:51-52. There will be a moment when the justified believers will not see death but glorified instantly. There’s no room for purgatory in that process. It really never ceases to amaze me how much Roman Catholics refuse to simply believe God at his word, and how blind they are at seeing how their traditions actually nullify God’s word just like Jesus warned the Pharisees of doing.

[@shamelesspopery]

Purgatory doesn't put our work on the scales, and it doesn't justify us, and it doesn't replace or diminish Christ's unique, once-for-all sacrifice on Calvary. Maybe the reason you're so amazed at how unbiblical Catholic teachings are is because you don't actually understand the teachings you're critiquing?

[@RandomUninspiredDude]

@@shamelesspoperyyou also gotta take to account the paradoxical side of purgatory. God forgives mortal sins, for they send you to hell, but he does not forgive sins that are less than mortal. How is that supposed to make sense? Why can’t he just forgive mortal and venial?

[@GumbyJumpOff]

It is safe to say that for one, no one in Heaven, angel or saint, believes that Mary had children beyond Jesus. Or that Mary was a sinner who was not immaculately conceived. Or that she wasn't assumed bodily into Heaven. Or that Jesus does not give us Himself in the Eucharist. Etc. So I realize.. plenty of non-Catholics would disagree with most or all of that, but I'm not posing these questions to them, so there really is no need to begin an argument on any of those points here. Hoping that that might be respected. What I'm curious about is this: say you have a Christian, who at death is perfectly contrite and sorry for all of their sins, who fully trusts in God and looks to nowhere but Him for forgiveness and salvation, and who has had the temporal punishment due them already transpire in light of their total contrition, BUT this Christian believes one or more erroneous things about God and about the things of God. What happens to a person like that? Does Purgatory involve also, like.. theological rehabilitation? lol .. or can that be done in the twinkling of an eye? Even a righteous and holy and contrite person like this might be more or less attached to these wrong beliefs, so that there could be a bit of pain in letting them go and having to adopt something new in their place. And in this example the person is not culpable for the errors, or at least the disbelief and error have no sin attached to them. Just a curiosity I've had, that I wonder if anyone has learned anything about or has any light to shed on it. Peaceeeee.

[@nosuchthing8]

All protestants shpuld be forces to watch this

[@mikekayanderson408]

Let’s get down to basics. The Bible says we are not to tell lies - right? Well many teachings put forth as fact by the Roman Catholic church are just that - lies. False. Untrue. Whichever word you want to use. The Protestants who comment on this page - including myself - are not doing it to be nasty or unkind. We actually are doing what the Bible instructs us to do - contend for the faith. Share the Gospel. Point out errors so as to help people who have been misled. We want people to know the truth for the sake of their souls. It’s not just arguing for argument’s sake. It’s not about winning points - it’s about wining souls. May God be gracious and bring many of you to His truth and save you. Only He can do this. K

[@bibleman8010]

May God be gracious and bring many of you to His truth and save you. Only He can do this HE already did it What Holy Scripture has said Christ's Church would be: 😆😆 How Christ's Church has conformed to Holy Scripture: It will be founded by GOD: Psalms 127:1, Matthew 16:18 It was founded by GOD. It will be highly visible: Isaiah 2:2, Matthew 5:14 It is highly visible. It will have the authority: Matthew 18:15-18, John 20:21-22 It has the authority given to it by Jesus Christ. It will have a Father Figure: Isaiah 22:20-25 It has a Father Figure, as GOD always had for His people. It will be a Theocracy and not a Democracy: Eph 5:23-24 It is a Theocracy. It is governed from the top down. The blueprint for it is described in the book of Acts. It is blueprinted in the book of Acts. It will have priests, deacons, Bishops: Acts 6:1-6,14:22,20:28 It always has had priests, deacons, and Bishops. It will have Apostolic Succession: Psalm 109:8, Acts 1:20-26 It has Apostolic Succession. It will offer sacrifice every day in every place: Malachi 1:11 It does offer sacrifice every day in every place. It will be guided by the Holy Spirit: John 14:16-17, 16:12-13 It is guided by the Holy Spirit: Acts 15:28, Rev 2:7 Truths of GOD to be revealed to it over time: John 16:12-13 Truths of GOD have been revealed to it over time: Eph 3:10 It will be the Pillar and Foundation of Truth: 1Timothy 3:15 It is the Pillar and Foundation of Truth. It will be the guardian of truth: 2Timothy 1:13-14 It has been the guardian of truth for almost 2000 years. It will uphold Apostolic Tradition: 2Thessalonians 2:15 It upholds Apostolic Tradition. It will have Church councils: Proverbs 11:14, Acts 15:1-29 It holds periodic Church councils: Acts 15:1-29 It will be attacked from the inside: John 6:70 It has been attacked from the inside. It will be attacked from the outside: Matthew 5:10-12, 10:22 It has been attacked from the outside. All who fight against it shall be confounded: Isaiah 41:11 37,000+ Protestant sects is proof that they are confounded. It will be found in every century: Ephesians 3:21 It is found in every century from the day Christ founded it. It will last forever: Isa 41:10-11, 54:17, 59:21, Matt 28:20 It is still with us today from the day in which He founded it. There is only one Church in the entire world which matches all of the Scriptural requirements as listed above. Can your sect match even one of those requirements? That's very simplistic. In my view, to believe in Jesus is to believe He existed, He's the Son of God and God in the flesh, never sinned, is our only savior and He did and say things in truth out of LOVE, NECESSITY AND with a PURPOSE. That said, we have to look closely to his deeds, particularly about establishing a Church. Why did He instituted such a thing? What was the necessity for that and the purpose? So that we don't ever loose sight of his true teachings. And what did His Church taught? Well, all we have to do is analyse all the primitive documents from the first centuries and come to the conclusion what Church today teaches the same things as the early church (and there's only one that corresponds: the Catholic Church). In conclusion: to believe in Christ is to believe and hold fast to His Church. To believe in Christ and reject His established Church is a dichotomy/contradiction. Even Christ identifies Himself with his Church (Acts 9:4; 22:7; Lk 10:16; 1Tim.3:15)

[@mikekayanderson408]

Hi. You have spent quite a while compiling our reply. I am so glad that you are content and confident in the Roman Church. But what about the fact that so many of the scriptures you quote either do not apply to the New Testament church or to what the Roman church teaches or does and have been twisted to suit itself. Misrepresented and misinterpreted ? Also where are all the scriptures to back up things like praying to the saints, climbing up stairs on your knees which still happens, to do penance etc using the rosary, losing the Holy Sprit because of sin and the getting it again when you do a work, of having to add to your justification because God has not justified you fully and completely when and if you come to faith , where does it say you are born again when baptised and original sin is forgiven, where does it say that Jesus’ sacrifice was not sufficient and there have to be daily sacrifices via the mass, where does it say anything about a treasury of merits stored up to be handed our to other believers …….. shall I go on? There are more. You all come up with twisted misplaced and misinterpreted verses that have been taught to you by Rome to answer these questions. But as I said above - as Protestants we really only want you to see the truth for your own sakes. For the sake of your eternity. Again I pray God will be gracious to many of you and He will open your eyes to the lies of Rome. May God bless you. K@@bibleman8010

[@bibleman8010]

@@mikekayanderson408 Gish galloping caterwauling the best you can do by the way don't beat your mother any more😊😊 losing the Holy Sprit because of sin so much for your once saved always saved BS Hebrews 10:26-29 “For IF WE SIN DELIBERATELY after receiving knowledge of the truth, THERE NO LONGER REMAINS A SACRIFICE FOR SINS, BUT A FEARFUL PROSPECT OF JUDGMENT, AND A FURY OF FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES………..HOW MUCH MORE PUNISHMENT DO YOU THINK WILL BE DESERVED BY THE MAN WHO HAS SPURNED THE SON OF GOD, AND PROFANED THE BLOOD OF THE COVENANT BY WHICH HE HAS SANCTIFIED, AND OUTRAGED THE SPIRIT OF GRACE”. Enjoy hell

[@bibleman8010]

@@mikekayanderson408PS it isnt the Roman Church ITS the Catholic Church bigot👍👍

[@mikekayanderson408]

Hi again!, I do not persecute Christ. I lift Him up and give Him all the glory , praise and honour for His loving sacrificial death on the cross! I give him thanks and praise for what He accomplished on the cross! He did everything necessary for our salvation, full forgiveness, full justification - which we receive when we are brought to faith and repentance by God!, It is a gift from God. You on the other hand disparage what Jesus did on the cross. You on the other hand undermine the completed work of Christ , you insult Him, you rob him of His power and glory by saying what He did on the cross is not sufficient and needs your help and assistance. You say His sacrifice once and for all is not sufficient and re-sacrific or re-offer him daily ! You are the ones who persecute Christ - not me. You drag down our wonderful, marvellous , divine Saviour by your teachings. k @po18guy

[@joseortegabeede8233]

Catholics will go to any lengths to just not believe that the blood of Christ is sufficient to blot out all sin, they still want us to somehow be purged through suffering

[@iggyantioch]

So which part of this video do you most object to

[@iggyantioch]

The Church affirms your post. Whence it came to pass, that the Heavenly Father, the Father of mercies and the God of all comfort (2 Corinthians 1, 3), when that blessed fullness of the time was come (Galatians 4:4) sent unto men Jesus Christ, His own Son who had been, both before the Law and during the time of the Law, to many of the holy fathers announced and promised, that He might both redeem the Jews, who were under the Law and that the Gentiles who followed not after justice might attain to justice and that all men might receive the adoption of sons. Him God had proposed as a propitiator, through faith in His blood (Romans 3:25), for our sins, and not for our sins only, but also for those of the whole world (I John ii, 2).

[@iggyantioch]

Crickets

[@richardjackson7887]

Romans 6:23 KJV For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord... Their is no purgatory on death row only death but a pardon only obtained through the Gospel of Jesus Christ that you are commanded to OBEY! Otherwise hell is your destination, do not pass go, do not collect $200.

[@anthonymarchetta8796]

Hey, I made the video! Nice. Couple thoughts: 1) Be careful appealing to predestination. It would be easy to conclude that all prayer is useless, and yet pray we do. The state of someone's soul is predestined, and yet clearly we should pray for unbelievers. 2) Thus the issue to me is one of logical impossibility. It is not logically impossible for the Lord to apply all prayers at the time most opportune for the soul prayed for. 3) I actually know a Protestant who does not believe in Purgatory yet prays for the dead with roughly this logic 4) Thus if your point is that this is not how early Christians or Jews thought of the matter, that is fine. I completely agree actually. It is simply a very different argument than "There is literally no reason to pray for the dead if Purgatory does not exist".

[@anthonymarchetta8796]

Disclaimer: I got this argument from the Catholic channel How to be Christian.

[@danielhaas9469]

Okay, first it is true we are not told wether out of the body or in the body Isaiah's experiences God. I would say that is not important but from what we read is God reveals his glory to him and is felt as it is written the temple shook and filled with smoke. So to Isaiah the experience is very real. Therefore, when seeing God as he truly is as it is written he becomes distressed for how can we stand before the Lord and live. Then the Seraphim flew over and put the coal up to his mouth. Huntsman is accurate when he says that he became clean after that event and did not go somewhere else wether in the body or out of the body. Secondly, what did the Church teach concerning purgatory pre-reformation vs post 2nd Vatican council? If you had the Church teaching that Purgatory is a place that is not in heaven and while there you are in torment but knowing you will exit how then does that fly? You have two contradicting doctrines of which Luther was point out. Todays view has clearly shifted from it being of tormenting and longlasting to it could be an instaneous event and not in a seperate place. If a doctrine is being taught that that changes it is better not to teach it and say i dont know only God knows. As for us we have the Gospel and we trust in Christ who died for us!

[@crusaderACR]

Purgatory wasn't doctrine before the reformation, just something every Christian took for granted. Trent defined it really vaguely, as a post-mortem purification many SAVED souls will need to go through and no further elaboration. The Church today doesn't even teach that Purgatory is necessarily a place. What you're talking about is about the most common views of it. The language in Hebrews about us children of God being disciplined implies some unpleasantness, and an old position is that it's painful, but these days the most common view I hear among Catholic people I know is that it doesn't involve actual suffering, "just" lots of scolding and rehab. Getting burning coals in your lips certainly sounds painful. You may argue it's quick, but it's not instantaneous in the literal meaning of the word. If it's not eternal, and it's long enough for you to notice, then it's temporal. If you didn't notice then you weren't disciplined. Can't happen in Heaven, as there's no suffering there. Can't be Hell, you can't leave that place. There's more than two spiritual places, a third biblical one being Abraham's Bosom (where righteous people were before Christ came) so why not a fourth one? Or maybe it's nowhere, or the place depends on what you need to clean, who knows? Catholics are free to speculate, and we'll do that all day long if you ask us, but there's nothing settled because we just don't know enough. We'll pray for those in purification because that certainly won't hurt, would it? If the words we use don't quite apply, that doesn't matter, God knows our hearts even before we ask and our wish will just be adapted to whatever the situation actually is. What we do have to make clear is that sinning is no joke, and being saved is no excuse for blatant disobedience or being complacent. I hope this was helpful. God bless.

[@danielhaas9469]

@alonso19989 Purgatory was formalized in the first council of Lyon and called it punishment...so, if they are not in Hell nor in Heaven where are they then? If it is a state that is so ambiguous that again it is better to say I do not know. In 1999 John Paul calls it a State and not a place but for the recent pope said it is a process. The fundamental problem with this is what did Christ do while on Earth? His is work on the cross not complete when he said by me going back to the Father you will be forgiven of your sins. And Paul Saya when we place our hope in him he being the high priest will wash us clean by his blood thus being made presentable to God. Therefore, as it is written in Hebrews, come and stand firm in Christ and with confidence approach the throne of Grace so that we may recieve mercy and find grace to help us in our time of need. Therefore, God's work upon the cross is truly finished and those who believe and do what is commanded follow him and are his. Not by our works of the Law nor by any holy work no. But by God's grace we are saved through Christ. Do not force God to remember our sins when God says: a time is coming and is almost here says the Lord where I will no longer remember your sins.

[@jamestrotter3162]

" For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."-Rom. 6:23, RSV second Catholic edition. The word of God says that the wages of all sin is death. It puts no distinction between so called "venial" and "mortal" sin, because all sin is mortal. But the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. If one is in Christ Jesus, then they have the free gift of eternal life. There is absolutely nothing in Holy Scripture that even hints at a place called purgatory. And I'm not a protestant. The Lord Jesus and none of the apostles ever taught the existence of purgatory.

[@ryandelaune139]

@@po18guywhy does that verse necessarily have to be speaking about spiritual death? There are sins in the Bible that result in immediate physical death, like Ananias and Sapphira. That verse talking about physical death makes much more sense in the context of John encouraging believers to pray for one another and protect one another. Read your Bible

[@jamestrotter3162]

@@po18guy This is talking about sin that may or may not lead to physical death. If one's sin doesn't lead to physical death, then yes, by all means, pray for that person to come to repentance. But if their sin leads to physical death, then there's no need to pray for them. Hence, this is the reason the Scripture says, "There is a sin unto death: for that I say not that any man ask." But the Scripture is very clear that all sin leads to spiritual death. " For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."-Rom. 6:23. When Adam and Eve sinned in the garden of Eden, God had already warned them that if they sinned, they would surely die. When they sinned they immediately died spiritually, and fellowship with God was broken, and they died physically years later. Read your Bible.

[@irishandscottish1829]

⁠@@jamestrotter3162 sorry but you don’t know your Bible well if you think it says there is no distinction between sins and if you think purgatory doesn’t exist. Scripture is very clear when it says: “And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.” (Rev. 21:27 KJV) “Thou art of purer eyes than to behold evil, and canst not look on iniquity: wherefore lookest thou upon them that deal treacherously, and holdest thy tongue when the wicked devoureth the man that is more righteous than he?” (Habakkuk 1:13 KJV) How many of us will be perfectly sanctified at the time of our deaths? I dare say most of us will be in need of further purification in order to enter the gates of heaven after we die, if, please God, we die in a state of grace. Now all Christians know that Jesus came not to abolish the OT but to fulfil it. In the OT Jews clearly believed that the sins of the dead could be atoned for by the living as I will prove. This is a constitutive element of what Catholics call “Purgatory.” In (2 Maccabees 12:39-46), we discover Judas Maccabeus and members of his Jewish military forces collecting the bodies of some fallen comrades who had been killed in battle. When they discovered these men were carrying “sacred tokens of the idols of Jamnia, which the law forbids the Jews to wear” (vs. 40), Judas and his companions discerned they had died as a punishment for sin. Therefore, Judas and his men “turned to prayer beseeching that the sin which had been committed might be wholly blotted out… He also took up a collection… and sent it to Jerusalem to provide for a sin offering. In doing this he acted very well and honorably… Therefore he made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin.” Now you can try to use the typical retorts of trying to claim Maccabees isn’t Biblical Canon however Maccabees is actually referred to in the NT and the story that is being referred to can be found nowhere in Scripture except in Maccabees also for you to claim the deuterocanonical books aren’t Scripture is saying God went silent for 300years leaving no inspired writings for people which is a nonsensical claim. You can also try saying these men in Maccabees committed the sin of idolatry, which would be a mortal sin in Catholic theology. According to the Catholic Church, they would be in Hell where there is no possibility of atonement. Thus, and ironically try to say, Purgatory must then be eliminated as a possible interpretation of this text if you’re Catholic. *addressing the first complaint of canonicity of Maccabees* Rejecting the inspiration and canonicity of II Maccabees does not negate its historical value. Maccabees aids us in knowing, purely from an historical perspective at the very least, the Jews believed in praying and making atonement for the dead shortly before the advent of Christ. This is the faith in which Jesus and the apostles were raised. And it is in this context Jesus declares in the New Testament: “And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.” (Matt. 12:32 KJV) This declaration of our Lord implies there are at least some sins that can be forgiven in the next life to a people who already believed it. If Jesus wanted to condemn this teaching commonly taught in Israel, he was not doing a very good job of it according to St. Matthew’s Gospel. *addressing the second resort argument Protestants use by trying to use Catholic theology against Catholics* A careful reading of the text reveals the sin of these men to be carrying small amulets “or sacred tokens of the idols of Jamnia” under their tunics as they were going in to battle. This would be closer to a Christian sports player believing there is some kind of power in his performing superstitious rituals before going to play than it would be to the mortal sin of idolatry. This was, most likely, a venial sin for them. But even if what they did would have been objectively grave matter, good Jews in ancient times-just like good Catholics today-believed they should always pray for the souls of those who have died: “Then hear thou from heaven thy dwelling place, and forgive, and render unto every man according unto all his ways, whose heart thou knowest; (for thou only knowest the hearts of the children of men:)” (2 Chronicles 6:30 KJV) God alone knows the degree of culpability of these “sinners.” Moreover, some or all of them may have repented before they died. Both Jews and Catholic Christians always retain hope for the salvation of the deceased this side of heaven; thus, we always pray for those who have died. In Matthew 5 Jesus is even more explicit about Purgatory: “Agree with thine adversary quickly, whiles thou art in the way with him; lest at any time the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison. Verily I say unto thee, Thou shalt by no means come out thence, till thou hast paid the uttermost farthing.” (Matt. 5:25-26 KJV) For Catholics, Tertullian for example, in De Anima 58, written in AD 208, this teaching is parabolic, using the well-known example of “prison” and the necessary penitence it represents, as a metaphor for Purgatorial suffering that will be required for lesser transgressions, represented by the “kodrantes” or “penny” of verse 26. But for many Protestants, our Lord is here giving simple instructions to his followers concerning this life exclusively. This has nothing to do with Purgatory. This traditional Protestant interpretation is very weak contextually. These verses are found in the midst of the famous “Sermon on the Mount,” in (Matt. 5) where our Lord teaches about heaven (verse 20), hell (verses 29-30), and both mortal sin (verse 22) and venial sins (verse 19), in a context that presents “the Kingdom of Heaven” as the ultimate goal (see verses 3-12). Our Lord goes on to say if you do not love your enemies, “what reward have you” (verse 46)? And he makes very clear these “rewards” are not of this world. They are “rewards from your Father who is in heaven” (Matt. 6:1) or “treasures in heaven” (Matt. 6:19-21). Further, as St. John points out in (John 20:31), all Scripture is written “that believing, you may have [eternal] life in his name.” Scripture must always be viewed in the context of our full realisation of the divine life in the world to come. Our present life is presented “as a vapor which appears for a little while, and afterwards shall vanish away” (James 1:17). It would seem odd to see the deeper and even “other worldly” emphasis throughout the Sermon of the Mount, except in these two verses. When we add to this the fact that the Greek word for prison, ‘phulake’ is the same word used by St. Peter, in (1 Peter 3:19) to describe the “holding place” into which Jesus descended after his death to liberate the detained spirits of Old Testament believers, the Catholic position makes even more sense. ‘Phulake’ is demonstrably used in the New Testament to refer to a temporary holding place and not exclusively in this life.

[@irishandscottish1829]

@@jamestrotter3162 *The plainest text regarding purgatory* “For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.” (1 Cor. 3:11-15 KJV). We can see Saint Paul is speaking about the judgment after death (see Hebrews 9:27) that everyone will face, framed in the context of loss and reward. The fire is being used to test the quality of a persons works. Fire is used metaphorically in Scripture in two ways 1- as a purifying agent (Malachi 3:2-3; Matthew 3:11; Mark 9:49) 2- as something that consumes (Matthew 3:12; 2 Thessalonians 1:7-8). So it is a fitting symbol here for God’s judgment. Some of the “works” represented are being burned up and some are being purified. These works survive or burn according to their essential “quality” (Greek hopoiov - of what sort). Paul is describing a state of being. •He cannot possibly be describing hell, because people are being saved there. •He also cannot be describing heaven, because there is imperfection being burned (see again, Rev. 21:27, Hab. 1:13). To claim Saint Paul is describing heaven and that ‘once saved always saved’ is supported by (1 Cor. 3:15) means you are saying Scripture conflicts with itself which it cannot do! “But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?” (Heb. 1:13 KJV) Instead Paul is describing a third place that isn’t Heaven or hell. It’s Purgatory: a place (or state of being) where the faithful dead who are in a state of grace but not yet purified of all imperfection go to for final purification to prepare them to enter the glory of heaven. The typical Protestant response to this is to say: there is no mention, at least explicitly, of “the cleansing of sin” anywhere in the text. There is only the testing of works. The focus is on the rewards believers will receive for their service, not on how their character is cleansed from sin or imperfection. And the believers here watch their works go through the fire, but they escape it. First, what are sins, but bad or wicked works (see Matthew 7:21-23, John 8:40, Galatians 5:19-21)? If these “works” do not represent sins and imperfections, why would they need to be eliminated? Second, it is impossible for a “work” to be cleansed apart from the human being who performed it. We are, in a certain sense, what we do when it comes to our moral choices. There is no such thing as a “work” floating around somewhere detached from a human being that could be cleansed apart from that human being. The idea of works being separate from persons does not make sense. Most importantly, however, this idea of “works” being “burned up” apart from the soul that performed the work contradicts the text itself. The text does say the works will be tested by fire, but “if the work survives… he will receive a reward. If any man’s work is burned up, he shall suffer loss.” And, “he will be saved, but only as through fire” (Greek dia puros). The truth is: both the works of the individual and the individual will go through the cleansing “fire” described by St. Paul in order that “he” might finally be saved and enter into the joy of the Lord. Sounds an awful lot like Purgatory.

[@jamestrotter3162]

@@irishandscottish1829I never said that the Bible doesn't place distinction between sins. It does and it also places degrees of punishment in hell according to the severity of sin. And I never said that Maccabees isn't canonical, but our purification from sin was accomplished by the sacrifice of Christ on the cross, which is why Christ cried out from the cross, "It is finished."-Jn. 19:30; which means that the price has been paid in full for the penalty of our sin. The writer of Hebrews makes this very clear." Then said He, " Lo, I come to do Thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that He may establish the second. By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. But this man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down on the right hand of God. From henceforth expecting til His enemies be made His footstool. For by one offering He hath perfected forever them that are sanctified."-Heb. 10:9-14. None of the arguments you gave from Scripture or the Church fathers prove purgatory. Temporal punishment of the saved in an imaginary place called "purgatory" implies that the once for all sacrifice for sin by Christ on the cross isn't sufficient enough for the payment and punishment for our sins, which is an insult to Christ Himself; especially when the word of God teaches that His sacrifice is all we need to have our sins "purged". " Who, being the brightness of His glory, and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high."-Heb. 1:3.

[@truthsurrender8708]

Hebrews 10:10 By that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. Guys…..Jesus blood was a perfect sacrifice. “Once and for all”. To say that you need more cleansing in addition to Jesus shed blood is to contradict the word of God. It’s not Jesus shed blood + purgatory. I was Catholic. Then I learned to read the word of God for myself. The Bible clarifies itself. Just read all of it. You don’t need a pastor or a pope to tell you what the word of God says.

[@donthephoneman7084]

Purgatory just another RC false teaching. What an insult to God to believe that the perfect sinless blood of His Son Jesus Christ is insufficient to take away our sins. Just plain blasphemy!!

[@srich7503]

As much as you can show the fullness of the Trinity doctrine in the bible, the following verses will show purgatory in the bible as well. 2Sam 12:13-14, Mt 5:26, Mt 5:48, Mt 12:32, Mt 12:36, Heb 12:14, Jam 1:14-15, Jam 3:2, Rev 21:27, 1Jn 5:16-17, 1Cor 3:13-15, Phil 2:10, 2Pet 3:18-20, 2Pet 4:6, 2Tim 1:16-18, 1Cor 15:29-30. And if you are a KJV person you may want to check out 2Macc 12:44-46. You did know the original KJV did have this and the other books the Catholic bible has, yes? Now of course here is where most will try to point out that the above verses are not to be translated the way Catholics are meaning for them to be translated, which is where we say, fine, then you should get your own book. After all, the Bible is a Catholic book. So then there is this… History shows us that Jesus didn't leave us a bible, the apostles didn't tell us which books belong in the bible, the church fathers never agreed on the 27 books of the NT through the 4th century, not only did they not agree but their list of would-be NT canons were GROWING during this time. So, if it wasn't the Catholic/Orthodox church that compiled the 27 books of the NT in the 5th century with the guidance of the Holy Spirit, and preserved it by laboriously hand copying them over and over throughout the centuries before the invention of the printing press, the “rule of faith” for many, please tell us, show us, who did? And if this church no longer exists today, what good is the text which came forth from her if she couldn't sustain herself?

[@wesleysimelane3423]

Purgatory, like many other Catholic dogmas, is based on a misunderstanding of the nature of Christ’s sacrifice. Catholics view the Mass / Eucharist as a re-presentation of Christ’s sacrifice because they fail to understand that Jesus’ once-for-all sacrifice was absolutely and perfectly sufficient (Hebrews 7:27). Catholics view meritorious works as contributing to salvation due to a failure to recognize that Jesus’ sacrificial payment has no need of additional “contribution” (Ephesians 2:8-9). Similarly, Purgatory is understood by Catholics as a place of cleansing in preparation for heaven because they do not recognize that because of Jesus’ sacrifice, we are already cleansed, declared righteous, forgiven, redeemed, reconciled, and sanctified.

[@srich7503]

Nope! We got all that. It is your misunderstanding that is deficient. With the plethora of interpretations of “our” book, the Bible, there are in the world today what makes your interpretation of the Bible the correct interpretation or should i ask what makes your version of “i let scripture interpret scripture” more correct than the others in the world? Is it the ones that believe infant baptism is salvific or the ones that do not? Or full immersion or not? Is it the Liberal Evangelical version or the Conservative Evangelical version? Could it be a Calvinist or Armenian or the Anglican viewpoint? Those that believe in woman ordinations or same sex marriages? Lord’s supper symbolic or sacramental? The once saved always always saved group or the not? Should women keep silent in church or speak and is this with or without their heads covered? Maybe Mormons, JWs, SDA’s, Christadelphians, or the Oneness Pentecostals position as they too preach from the same bible also??? Surely you cannot think all these positions are acceptable. If not then which one is correct and why do you get to be the one to choose? Is yours the infallible one? If not then who really cares? On the other hand there is this to consider and answer “IF” you wish to… History shows us that Jesus didn't leave us a bible, the apostles didn't tell us which books belong in the bible, the church fathers never agreed on the 27 books of the NT through the 4th century, not only did they not agree but their list of would-be NT canons were GROWING during this time. So, if it wasn't the Catholic/Orthodox church that compiled the 27 books of the NT in the 5th century with the guidance of the Holy Spirit, and preserved it by laboriously hand copying them over and over throughout the centuries before the invention of the printing press, the “rule of faith” for many, please tell us, show us, who did? And if this church no longer exists today, what good is the text which came forth from her if she couldn't sustain herself?

[@darrellperez1029]

Do you believe you have to be a sinner and to be a bold one at that? Yes or no will suffice.

[@mikekayanderson408]

Amen! When will the Catholics ever listen! Blinded by Satan.

[@HumanDignity10]

Your objection is addressed starting at 39:03 of this video.

[@crusaderACR]

There's no need for additional contribution. How do we handle this verse though? "I am now rejoicing in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I am completing what is lacking in Christ’s afflictions for the sake of his body, that is, the church." - Colossians 1:24 Is Paul spouting heresy? Implying Christ's afflictions were lacking? Why does he think his sufferings are contributing to the Cross?

[@alonso7124]

If we receive the Holy Spirit and our bodies are temples, then how is it that the Holy Spirit resides in us If we have sin in our spirit? the answer to that is that we don't have sin in our spirit once we receive the Holy Spirit our flesh sins but our spirit is purified.

[@darrellperez1029]

That is true. However, once you commit sin, the Holy Spirit leaves your body because nothing unpure can enter heaven. This is the reason for confession.

[@alonso7124]

@@darrellperez1029 where does it say the Holy Spirit leaves you? So someone can lose salvation?

[@darrellperez1029]

@@alonso7124 yes. Someone can lose salvation. The Holy Spirit will leave you if you sin (fall out of grace).

[@alonso7124]

@@darrellperez1029 i disagree ‭‭John‬ ‭10:27‭-‬30‬ ‭ESV‬‬ [27] My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. [28] I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. [29] My Father, who has given them to me,is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. [30] I and the Father are one.”

[@darrellperez1029]

@@alonso7124 you can disagree all you want. Keep reading John 14:23-24. Sin can not enter heaven meaning that nothing of God can mix with impurity. So if you sin, that would mean that the Holy Spirit allowed it. And that can not be true because, as God, The Holy Spirit is pure.

[@itsmejeremy7]

How is reading the words “absent from the body is to be present with the Lord” misquoting scripture when you literally just read the scripture? 🤔

[@tabandken8562]

Because Paul said, "I RATHER be absent from the body and present with the Lord" He wasn't saying that THAT is how it is or that is what happens after death. He wasn't even sure he was saved, as in that he'd go to heaven after death and he feared he could be disqualified for heaven.

[@shamelesspopery]

Compare two sentences: 1. "I would rather be away from the beach and in the mountains." 2. "To be away from the beach is to be in the mountains." Those don't mean the same thing, do they? Someone could believe (1) while still acknowledging that there are places other than the beach and the mountains. (Trust me, I live in such a place). So when St. Paul talks about how he would rather be with God than in this present body, he's not saying that those are the only two options. Of course they aren't: Protestants and Catholics both believe in hell, a place which is neither "in the body" nor "with the Lord."

[@carlhursh505]

There is NO such place as Purgatory in the Bible. Jesus told the thief next to him on the cross “today you will shall be with me in paradise.” Everyone who died prior to Jesus resurrection went to paradise. Upon the resurrection, Jesus led those who were not being held in Hates, to Heaven. READ the Bible!

[@bibleman8010]

Christ says in Matthew that, like Jonah, he would be in the belly of the earth for 3 days. Acts tells us Christ remained on earth for 40 days before He ascends. So there were 43 days BEFORE Christ went to Heaven. Did the good thief go ahead of the Lord to make sure the lights were on for His arrival? Or, more likely, Paradise that Christ mentions, is Abrahams Boosom. The place where the prisoners Christ preached to in 1st Peter were awaiting the Messiah READ the Bible!😆😆

[@irishandscottish1829]

Wrong - dust of your Bible and read it. I’ll firstly address your twisting and adding to Scripture of the good thief St. Dismas As for the thief (Saint Dismas) you are putting traditions of men first for your understanding! You have absolutely no idea that he wasn’t a Jew that followed Christs teachings and believed in Him - after all he knew that Christ was the Lord and was going to His Kingdom after He died! (Luke 23:42 KJV) Something Jesus only taught and made clear to His disciples (Matt. 13:10-16; Mark 4:10-12 KJV) so it is entirely possible the thief is a fallen away disciple. The thief also repented on the cross by saying he and the other thief deserved their punishment but that Christ was innocent and went on to do good works by defending Our Lords innocence (Luke 23:41 KJV). The good thief on the cross actually seems to have exhibited all the faith and works that he could, given his situation. The fact that his physical limitations made it impossible for him to do anything more than speak would certainly not be lost on God! Amidst all the assumptions Protestants like to made about this short story, one that seems safe is that had any sacrament been made available to the good thief for salvation, he would have received it. As for your claim thinking saying the thief wasn’t Baptised is some sort of gotcha - how do you know he wasn’t already baptised? The Apostles went out with Our Lord and Baptised people (John 3:22 KJV) - you are putting a tradition of men in to claim the thief wasn’t Baptised as no where in the Bible does it tell us whether the thief was or wasn’t Baptised… Regarding you claim about the thief not receiving communion - seriously? You clearly don’t know your Bible very well and it’s evident by your comment… until Christ died, rose again and ascended into Heaven the Jews were still under the Old Covenant - Communion wasn’t instituted until the Last Supper and the New Covenant didn’t start until after Our Lord rose again and ascended - this is basic info that you should know… You really should stop appealing to traditions of men where you have no Biblical foundation to back up what you say! Remember the omission of something isn’t proof it didn’t occur… the omission doesn’t harm the Catholic view however it certainly doesn’t support the Protestant view! Remember John tells us the world wouldn’t be able to contain all the books that would be needed to write everything Our Lord did… (John 21:25 KJV) Again where are you getting the claim ‘special cases’ can’t happen? It’s not the Bible that’s for sure - yet again you are appealing to the traditions of men to make that claim. Again the thief lived and died under the Old Covenant. The sacraments, such as Christian baptism and the Eucharist, are part of the New Covenant, which was not fully in place until Jesus died (Heb. 9:15-18, Acts 19:1-6 KJV). If you really think the good thief is the standard setting the example are you seriously trying to claim the Gospel can be boiled down to asking to be remembered in Jesus’ kingdom? Seriously? Because if you are using the thief on the cross as the example for salvation that is exactly what you are saying. Also in that case why are you not applying the same standard to every example in Scripture? For example Jesus forgives a man based on his friends’ faith! (Mark 2:5 KJV) hardly the example of what you all claim to be the meaning of ‘faith alone’ now is it? Or do you claim that was a special case? The Catholic Church actually teaches that although we are bound to God’s sacraments, God is not. The Church baptises because that is how God revealed that New Covenant believers enter into salvation (Mark 16:16; John 3:5; Acts 2:38, 22:16; 1 Pet. 3:21) but this does not mean God cannot save without baptism (see CCC 1257-1258). The same might be said of the Eucharist (John 6:53-54). God looks on the heart, not just the body and a person who unwillingly cannot participate in the sacraments is not judged for that. There are unusual and extreme situations when normative salvific requirements cannot be met, and yet salvation remains possible - for example Baptism by desire. God knows this, and the Church teaches it. But unusual circumstances do not disprove normative expectations. By His grace, God can save through (genuine) faith alone, of course, but it is a mistake to make an exceptional act into a theological rule especially one that directly contradicts Scripture.

[@irishandscottish1829]

Now regarding purgatory again read your Bible. Scripture is very clear when it says: “And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.” (Rev. 21:27 KJV) “Thou art of purer eyes than to behold evil, and canst not look on iniquity: wherefore lookest thou upon them that deal treacherously, and holdest thy tongue when the wicked devoureth the man that is more righteous than he?” (Habakkuk 1:13 KJV) How many of us will be perfectly sanctified at the time of our deaths? I dare say most of us will be in need of further purification in order to enter the gates of heaven after we die, if, please God, we die in a state of grace. Now all Christians know that Jesus came not to abolish the OT but to fulfil it. In the OT Jews clearly believed that the sins of the dead could be atoned for by the living as I will prove. This is a constitutive element of what Catholics call “Purgatory.” In (2 Maccabees 12:39-46), we discover Judas Maccabeus and members of his Jewish military forces collecting the bodies of some fallen comrades who had been killed in battle. When they discovered these men were carrying “sacred tokens of the idols of Jamnia, which the law forbids the Jews to wear” (vs. 40), Judas and his companions discerned they had died as a punishment for sin. Therefore, Judas and his men “turned to prayer beseeching that the sin which had been committed might be wholly blotted out… He also took up a collection… and sent it to Jerusalem to provide for a sin offering. In doing this he acted very well and honorably… Therefore he made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin.” Now you can try to use the typical retorts of trying to claim Maccabees isn’t Biblical Canon however Maccabees is actually referred to in the NT and the story that is being referred to can be found nowhere in Scripture except in Maccabees also for you to claim the deuterocanonical books aren’t Scripture is saying God went silent for 300years leaving no inspired writings for people which is a nonsensical claim. You can also try saying these men in Maccabees committed the sin of idolatry, which would be a mortal sin in Catholic theology. According to the Catholic Church, they would be in Hell where there is no possibility of atonement. Thus, and ironically try to say, Purgatory must then be eliminated as a possible interpretation of this text if you’re Catholic. *addressing the first complaint of canonicity of Maccabees* Rejecting the inspiration and canonicity of II Maccabees does not negate its historical value. Maccabees aids us in knowing, purely from an historical perspective at the very least, the Jews believed in praying and making atonement for the dead shortly before the advent of Christ. This is the faith in which Jesus and the apostles were raised. And it is in this context Jesus declares in the New Testament: “And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.” (Matt. 12:32 KJV) This declaration of our Lord implies there are at least some sins that can be forgiven in the next life to a people who already believed it. If Jesus wanted to condemn this teaching commonly taught in Israel, he was not doing a very good job of it according to St. Matthew’s Gospel. *addressing the second resort argument Protestants use by trying to use Catholic theology against Catholics* A careful reading of the text reveals the sin of these men to be carrying small amulets “or sacred tokens of the idols of Jamnia” under their tunics as they were going in to battle. This would be closer to a Christian sports player believing there is some kind of power in his performing superstitious rituals before going to play than it would be to the mortal sin of idolatry. This was, most likely, a venial sin for them. But even if what they did would have been objectively grave matter, good Jews in ancient times-just like good Catholics today-believed they should always pray for the souls of those who have died: “Then hear thou from heaven thy dwelling place, and forgive, and render unto every man according unto all his ways, whose heart thou knowest; (for thou only knowest the hearts of the children of men:)” (2 Chronicles 6:30 KJV) God alone knows the degree of culpability of these “sinners.” Moreover, some or all of them may have repented before they died. Both Jews and Catholic Christians always retain hope for the salvation of the deceased this side of heaven; thus, we always pray for those who have died. In Matthew 5 Jesus is even more explicit about Purgatory: “Agree with thine adversary quickly, whiles thou art in the way with him; lest at any time the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison. Verily I say unto thee, Thou shalt by no means come out thence, till thou hast paid the uttermost farthing.” (Matt. 5:25-26 KJV) For Catholics, Tertullian for example, in De Anima 58, written in AD 208, this teaching is parabolic, using the well-known example of “prison” and the necessary penitence it represents, as a metaphor for Purgatorial suffering that will be required for lesser transgressions, represented by the “kodrantes” or “penny” of verse 26. But for many Protestants, our Lord is here giving simple instructions to his followers concerning this life exclusively. This has nothing to do with Purgatory. This traditional Protestant interpretation is very weak contextually. These verses are found in the midst of the famous “Sermon on the Mount,” in (Matt. 5) where our Lord teaches about heaven (verse 20), hell (verses 29-30), and both mortal sin (verse 22) and venial sins (verse 19), in a context that presents “the Kingdom of Heaven” as the ultimate goal (see verses 3-12). Our Lord goes on to say if you do not love your enemies, “what reward have you” (verse 46)? And he makes very clear these “rewards” are not of this world. They are “rewards from your Father who is in heaven” (Matt. 6:1) or “treasures in heaven” (Matt. 6:19-21). Further, as St. John points out in (John 20:31), all Scripture is written “that believing, you may have [eternal] life in his name.” Scripture must always be viewed in the context of our full realisation of the divine life in the world to come. Our present life is presented “as a vapor which appears for a little while, and afterwards shall vanish away” (James 1:17). It would seem odd to see the deeper and even “other worldly” emphasis throughout the Sermon of the Mount, except in these two verses. When we add to this the fact that the Greek word for prison, ‘phulake’ is the same word used by St. Peter, in (1 Peter 3:19) to describe the “holding place” into which Jesus descended after his death to liberate the detained spirits of Old Testament believers, the Catholic position makes even more sense. ‘Phulake’ is demonstrably used in the New Testament to refer to a temporary holding place and not exclusively in this life.

[@bibleman8010]

@@po18guy Since you claim there is no "purgatory " Then please explain where Jesus' Spirit went for the 3 days his body was dead? Sacred Scripture says ",, that he went and preached to the spirits who lay in prison. " ( 1 Peter 3:19) Where was this prison? was it in Heaven? If so why would there be a prison in Paradise? Was the prison in the Hell of the Damned? If so why would the damned need to hear the Gospel? . as you say there is no "purgatory" then Jesus did not have to die on the cross. If Moses and Abraham and the rest of the OT Faithful were already in the presence of the Lord then Jesus did not have to die. His death on the cross opened the narrow gate and the OT faithful passed through that narrow gate from the wilderness into the Promised land. The OT Faithful that died waiting for the Messiah weren't in slavery in Egypt- the antetype of hell of the damned for they had been rescued but they weren't in the Promised land of heaven either. Jesus' death opened the narrow gate and fulfilled the Covenant. Please study the Hebrew thoughts of Sheol and the grave, and note that Sheol is NOT Gehenna. Gehenna is for the accursed and the Damned not Abraham or Moses. The waiting in the spiritual wilderness is the best explanation of "purgatory" I can think of right now. Thanks for listening and remember Revelation 21 :17 & 1 Cor 3:15 especially verses 10-15. ---- the word hell means Hades or Sheol, the collective abode of the dead, divided into Paradise or Abraham's Bosom--the state of God-fearing souls--and Gehenna, the state of ungodly souls. Thus the descent into hell suggests that the Son of God carried the sins of the world to hell; or the Son of God carried Good News of deliverance to the godly dead such as Lazarus the beggar and the repentant thief. Christ says in Matthew that, like Jonah, he would be in the belly of the earth for 3 days. Acts tells us Christ remained on earth for 40 days before He ascends. So there were 43 days BEFORE Christ went to Heaven. Did the good thief go ahead of the Lord to make sure the lights were on for His arrival? Or, more likely, Paradise that Christ mentions, is Abrahams Boosom. The place where the prisoners Christ preached to in 1st Peter were awaiting the Messiah😉😉

[@johnp.6043]

Wait, I thought Jesus “ purged” our sins at the cross. Hebrews 1:1 Jesus fulfilled it with his blood.Romans 3:25 No were in scripture were it says fire will clean up our sins, the Bible says in the KJV our bad works burn up,but we are “ saved”;yet so as by fire. ( All this is saying it is reconfirming we are saved from fire.) Douay Rheims read similar. “fire does not purge our sins” In the book of Maccabees the Old Testament Israelis, that notice there fallen companions had idols around their neck and they prayed to God to forgive them. ( nothing about purgatory) Besides O.T. Saints had to have animal blood sacrifices to atone for their sins, so when they died they went to Abrahams bosom, and after Jesus Christ sacrifice of his own blood brought the O.T. Saints to heaven from Abrahams bosom. ( and the graves were opened and the saints appeared to many in Jerusalem. Get redeemed, covered, reborn, spiritual circumcised, and get saved today by Jesus that washes your sins, all your sins from his pure and Holy Blood. Ephesians 2:8-10 (saved by grace through Faith, no works, nothing of yourself or your own righteousness, only by God’s righteousness through your faith you are saved. Amen!

[@TheThreatenedSwan]

Bad works means sin. This is obvious.

[@johnp.6043]

@@TheThreatenedSwan 1 Corinthians 3:14-15 KJV If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. 2Cor. 5:8 we are “confident”, I saying and willing rather to be absent from the body,and to be present with the Lord. 2Cor.5:10 judgement seat of Christ Are not the same people theses are to be judged after the millennium for their “ works” Rev.20 this group wanted to trust their own works rather then getting redeemed by the blood of Jesus through Faith. ( A religious system teaches) 2Cor.5:7 ( this verse are for the saved christian ) 10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. It obvious that this person is saved, good works , receive rewards “ crowns to present to Jesus. Bad works are anything that does not glorify God.( self center motives) We are all in a fleshy sinful nature,but those who are redeemed by Faith are covered. ( saved) Romans 4:7 KJV

[@srich7503]

@@johnp.6043 You are correct. Purgatory is not and never has been for “the forgiveness” of the sins. If one is in purgatory is is only that his sins have ALREADY been forgiven and this person is on his way to heaven. So then, what IS purgatory for??? “Reparation” of the sins committed. 👍🏻 CCC-2412 & CCC-2487 So do you think now that we have dismissed the misnomer that purgatory is about forgiveness of sin, you can allow yourself to see the difference between “forgiveness” vs “reparation” of the same sin? Scenario… If your 10 year old son hits a baseball through the window of the neighbors house and is truly sorrowful, you and your neighbor will more than likely “forgive” him. However you will not simply turn around and tell the neighbor “have a good day”. You will, in good faith, repair the window to his satisfaction. This is “reparation” and this is NOT what Jesus died on the cross for. This is what Jesus expects us to do if we wrong someone and what Zacchaeus offered in Lk 19:8. Peace!!!

[@johnp.6043]

@@srich7503 KJV For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him. Jesus payed for our broken sinfulness. ( and the window) The only middle ground or a holding place in Scripture is Abrahams bosom, no evidence of a place called purgatory, I would like you to show me.

[@srich7503]

@@johnp.6043 As much as you can show the fullness of the Trinity doctrine in the bible, the following verses will show purgatory in the bible as well. 2Sam 12:13-14, Mt 5:26, Mt 5:48, Mt 12:32, Mt 12:36, Heb 12:14, Jam 1:14-15, Jam 3:2, Rev 21:27, 1Jn 5:16-17, 1Cor 3:13-15, Phil 2:10, 2Pet 3:18-20, 2Pet 4:6, 2Tim 1:16-18, 1Cor 15:29-30. And if you are a KJV person you may want to check out 2Macc 12:44-46. You did know the original KJV did have this and the other books the Catholic bible has, yes? Now of course here is where most will try to point out that the above verses are not to be translated the way Catholics are meaning for them to be translated, which is where we say, fine, then you should get your own book. After all, the Bible is a Catholic book. History shows us that Jesus didn't leave us a bible, the apostles didn't tell us which books belong in the bible, the church fathers never agreed on the 27 books of the NT through the 4th century, not only did they not agree but their list of would-be NT canons were GROWING during this time. So, if it wasn't the Catholic/Orthodox church that compiled the 27 books of the NT in the 5th century with the guidance of the Holy Spirit, and preserved it by laboriously hand copying them over and over throughout the centuries before the invention of the printing press, the “rule of faith” for many, please tell us, show us, who did? And if this church no longer exists today, what good is the text which came forth from her if she couldn't sustain herself?

[@cbooth151]

Purgatory is not Biblical. As the New Catholic Encyclopedia says: “The Catholic doctrine on purgatory is based on tradition, not on Sacred Scripture.”

[@cronmaker2]

You haven't actually read the NCE have you - it states "Although the doctrine of purgatory is not explicitly stated in the Bible, belief in its existence is intimately related to the biblical doctrines of divine judgment, the forgiveness of sins, the mercy of God, and the temporal punishment due to sin... The only [OT] passage that can be cited in support of the doctrine of purgatory is 2 Mc 12.39-45 ... Several [NT] texts can be understood as referring to purgatory at least indirectly..." Your citation (which floats around on the Internet devoid of context) is the concluding sentence merely indicating it is not explicitly taught in Scripture which must be interpreted via the lens of Tradition, not that it is unbiblical.

[@cbooth151]

@@cronmaker2 "Your citation (which floats around on the Internet devoid of context) is the concluding sentence merely indicating it is not explicitly taught in Scripture." Not so, pal. The NCE states explicitly that the teaching of purgatory is not Scriptural PERIOD. As it says: "The Catholic doctrine on purgatory is based on tradition, *NOT* on Sacred Scripture." This quote is not just "floating around on the Internet." It is also found in the NCE on page 1034. It's sad that Catholics believe in a fictional place of temporary suffering called purgatory and a place of permanent suffering called hell.

[@cronmaker2]

@@cbooth151 you're doubling down when I cited the rest of the NCE entry where it references Scripture that supports purgatory. That means the NCE doesn't consider it unbiblical.

[@cbooth151]

@@cronmaker2 The New Catholic Encyclopedia says: "The Catholic doctrine on purgatory is based on tradition, *NOT* on Sacred Scripture." Do you see the word "not" in that sentence? Does it mean that purgatory is based on tradition *AND* on Sacred Scripture? Uh, NO! It means that while purgatory is based on Catholic tradition, it is *NOT* found anywhere in Scripture. Clearly, you are in a severe state of denial. Or, maybe you didn't do well in basic English class in grade school. If I said that I can speak English, but NOT Spanish. What am I telling you? Am I saying I can speak English *AND* Spanish? Or am I telling you I can speak English, but that I canNOT speak Spanish?

[@cronmaker2]

@@cbooth151 does the NCE cite Scripture in support of purgatory?

[@kennethprather9633]

Purgatory is nowhere in the Bible.

[@TruthHasSpoken]

"Purgatory is nowhere in the Bible" It's implicit, not explicit. And, your bible's table of contents is found "nowhere in the bible." Neither is the teaching that all Christian doctrine comes from the bible alone. That's a false and heretical teaching now 500 years old.

[@mikekayanderson408]

Same old same old! Purgatory does not exist! We are cleansed by the blood of Christ shed for the forgiveness of our sins! We are declared righteous by God when we come to faith in Christ ! That faith is a gift from God - when we are born again by a sovereign act of God and not by baptism or any other rituals or sacraments- no one is saved except by God’s will and He only saves those He elected before the creation of the world. When they die they enter immediately into His presence! That is the teaching of Scripture! Why do you keep perpetuating lies??? K

[@bourbonrebel5515]

Have you even watched the video

[@darrellperez1029]

Perhaps you say that because the word purgatory is not in scripture. Is that a true statement?

[@ΕλέησονΑμαρτωλόν]

Actually, Joe gives the scripture needed here. Please respond to Joe’s actual argument. Ο Θεός να ευλογεί.

[@darrellperez1029]

@@ΕλέησονΑμαρτωλόν they won't. They're drive by commentators. Crux Sacra Sit Mihi Lux Non Draco Sit Mihi Dux. Pax

[@crusaderACR]

Brother, those purging their souls already have ALL their sins forgiven. It's just that they need purging, because you're likely still a wretched soul who wants to do bad stuff and does bad stuff, even if minor. See it as the Father disciplining you. Yes, as a Christian who died in God's friendship, you're ASSURED Heaven despite being totally unworthy (thanks to our Lord and Master Jesus Christ that won't matter, we still are saved! Praise God) but as unworthy, can you straight up show up? Point is, you may be forgiven, but you're not ready. You have to be _made_ worthy, because I don't know about you but I totally don't deserve to be in God's literal presence, even though through the grace given by Jesus Christ I'm forgiven.

[@georgekoshy4656]

All the four reasons mentioned here are unscriptural. 1) If you are a born again person, all your sins are forgiven through the shed blood of Jesus. 1Jn.2:2. 2) All, including Mary have commited sin because we are all fallen. Mortal sin simply means sin which is meted out by physical death (Hamatia thanathon) . Such a person loses his reward in heaven. He does not have to go to purgatory. 3) The theif who was justified by Jesus did not go to purgatory, but he went into paradise in hades.

[@srich7503]

1) purgatory is for those whos sins have ALREADY been forgiven, therefore your strawman is blown. 2) Mary did not sin because the church says so. The same church that gave you the scriptures you are re-interpreting to try to debunk the church that gave them to you to begin with. God CAN do whatever He wishes with whoever He wishes. 3) The thief could have easily gone through purgatory in a matter of split seconds. That is not for you not I to decide as neither of us are his judge. For proof of #2, or for all of the above, and for you to ponder and answer “IF” you choose to… History shows us that Jesus didn't leave us a bible, the apostles didn't tell us which books belong in the bible, the church fathers never agreed on the 27 books of the NT through the 4th century, not only did they not agree but their list of would-be NT canons were GROWING during this time. So, if it wasn't the Catholic/Orthodox church that compiled the 27 books of the NT in the 5th century with the guidance of the Holy Spirit, and preserved it by laboriously hand copying them over and over throughout the centuries before the invention of the printing press, the “rule of faith” for many, please tell us, show us, who did? And if this church no longer exists today, what good is the text which came forth from her if she couldn't sustain herself?

[@TruthHasSpoken]

"All, including Mary have commited sin " Book, chapter and verse that says she sinned. And, note, be careful of the word ALL in scripture. I can show you from scripture, where ALL doesn't always mean, ALL. But give it a try. :) "Mortal sin simply means sin which is meted out by physical death" Where does scripture say that???? Just the book, chapter and verse. "The theif who was justified by Jesus did not go to purgatory," Where does scripture say that??? Just the book, chapter and verse.

[@TruthHasSpoken]

@@dirkfirkle73 Then you must believe that every single man, women and child came out to see John the Baptist! _5 And there went out to him _*_ALL the country of Judea, and ALL the people of Jerusalem;_*_ and they were baptized by him in the river Jordan, confessing their sins_ (Mk 1) Is this what you believe? YES NO

[@TruthHasSpoken]

@@dirkfirkle73 So you want to dodge the question that ALL doesn't mean ALL?

[@TruthHasSpoken]

@@dirkfirkle73 I asked a YES or NO question, restated below. *Do must believe that every single man, women and child came out to see John the Baptist?* YES (ALL means every single man, women, every infant, and every elderly person) NO _5 And there went out to him _*_ALL the country of Judea,_*_ and _*_ALL the people of Jerusalem;_*_ and they were baptized by him in the river Jordan, confessing their sins_ (Mk 1)