Anti-Trans Ideology Threatens All Of Our Freedoms | Judith Butler Meets Ash Sarkar

For a special edition of Downstream IRL, Ash Sarkar is joined by philosopher, author, and one of the world's most cited academics, Judith Butler.
Their new book, 'Who’s Afraid of Gender' charts how a transphobic moral panic morphed into an all-our war on so-called ‘gender ideology’.
Together, Ash and Judith explore how Britain became TERF island, the limits of self-identification, and what really defines a woman.
00:00 Intro
02:27 What is a Woman?
07:19 What’s the Deal with UK Transphobia?
15:51 Aren’t Transphobes Just Defending Vulnerable Women?
25:03 Self Identification
37:42 Does Self ID Apply to Race?
44:03 What About our Aging Populations?
47:24 Gender Ideology and Fascism
Novara Live broadcasts every weekday from 6PM on KZbin and Twitch.
Episodes of Downstream are released Sundays at 3PM on KZbin.
__________________________
Support our journalism by buying Novara Media merch:
shop.novaramedia.com
Donate one hour’s wage per month, or whatever you can afford:
novara.media/support

[@hawaii_hardware]

The protracted bloviation is strong with Judith

[@tangimeme]

"Are we bringing vibes to a gun fight" is such an iconic line and the perfect way to express that sentiment 😂

[@ayeright320]

Means nothing

[@harveyyoung3423]

I started watching this interview live with my Mum and Dad at their house yesterday. We didn't get to far into it, not because it is complicated, with many moving parts and different levels, which it is, and which it has, but because it kicked off a long discussion after only a several minutes in. They have invited me back over today to watch some more, and i get a free home cooked dinner too. So very interesting, socially consequential, and with a high positive utility margin for me, so far.

[@Fredmayve]

Meanwhile Britain is doing genocide in Gaza

[@atee876]

a free dinner cooked by a loving parent is not to be sniffed at! lucky you! ;)

[@harveyyoung3423]

@@atee876 its true and I got two of 'em.

[@harveyyoung3423]

I still haven' got any further though the interview. But an odd thing is, my feminist colleague doing post grad stuff after finishing, went from theory to praxis, and gave a me a pile of her feminists texts to add to my home library between my epistemology and logic sections. They are fairly recent general texts and collections of essays mostly. The thing is, Judith Butler is not even in most of them, and is only a couple of quotes in the one that mentions bodies. I mean I'm all for privileging margins, but really?

[@harveyyoung3423]

So i read all i have of Judith Butler in books in five minutes. Thing is i went full Butlerian for some years from late 2000's though to early 2010s. All the EGS seminars and lectures some I watched several times, and many other lectures too. So right now I thought I'd have a go at performing Butler and then return to this interview and write about it after some praxis and experience. Just don't tell my friends on the right and my conservative colleagues. You can assess this already in comments on a Konstantin Kisin talk at Centre for Independent Study 2 weeks ago. For praxis reasons I choose to omit any reference to Butler, until I've drawn them in.

[@neurotrino3292]

Butler seems to not be able to comprehend it's imperative for women's rights to differentiate between "a woman can be everything" and "everything can be a woman". The former opens the world for women, the later puts us back in the box, because for any concept to be meaningful, there has to be a coherent definition behind it. If that definition isn't grounded in biology - such as a woman is a woman because of her biology as a woman no matter what she looks like, does, says, etc. then what is a woman? By Butler's words, if anyone can become a woman, then for women to be anything at all, you have to fall back on stereotypes or just erase the concept completely, because there is no inherent concept to step into. A trans woman is a trans woman by approximating the concept of womanhood, but they inherently can't enter biological womanhood. By this same token Butler is suggestion, what is the limitation to womanhood? Because any concept has a limitation for it to have a meaning. It's actually by far easier by her logical than any patriarchal one to limit women from the concept of womanhood through their behavior, looks, words, because if they no longer are defined as women by their biology then they can be excluded from it by any other concept.

[@mozar937]

Butler is a master of denial in every possible direction. A woman runs away from truth

[@andreagibbs8557]

you maybe are an afraid person and you think there's a "truth" as if universal view could be

[@tracey6258]

I'd love Ash to interview Helen Joyce or better still a conversation between Butler and Joyce.

[@pinwheelart2825]

Yes, please! 😂

[@RomeoGrrl]

They don’t dare, it would result in Butler looking even more ridiculous than she is on her own.

[@Zarqaa_]

No not Joyce. I think Kathleen Stock is a better debater.

[@benp4877]

Yep

[@asuka_the_void_witch]

no? we do not debate with fascists.

[@aefun5761]

"Are we bringing vibes to a gunfight" :) Ash is well on form, brilliant.

[@alioxinfree]

We must keep plugging away, coalitions are the only thing that works against fascism. 💜 Happy Trans Day of Visibility.

[@UXDlozi]

i loved that lol

[@cadenza3210]

I'm gonna steal that.

[@uncoiledfish2561]

What does it mean?

[@zacharybosley1935]

@@uncoiledfish2561 "are we focused so much on feelings and ideas that we are unequipped to deal with the material consequences of transphobia?"

[@jakubdzejkob9989]

Perfect example that academics should not be taken at a face value... What a shitshow

[@paulmcgrath3341]

Pseudo-intellectuel claptrap.

[@paulsmart4672]

What you mean to say is you're offended by you can't explain why. That's okay, I'll do it for you: It's because you are obedient.

[@familiecole]

@@paulsmart4672There's nothing obedient about disagreement. You seem to agree with what you have just heard. That stinks to the core of obedience, passivity, ignorance and thoughtlessness.

[@TheOmnitom]

@@familiecole fact

[@markrussell3428]

@@paulsmart4672 Don't be so kind. There is ZERO intellectual value, this is as anti-intellectual as it gets.

[@markrussell3428]

@@paulsmart4672 Perhaps, but atleast he can string a sentence together.

[@Skullman367]

An absolute charlatan posing as an intellectual. Continental philosophy after Nietzsche had taken an incredible nosedive.

[@CosmicClaire99]

I'm glad to see that someone here can see through her!

[@sarah-janelambert8962]

Judith Butler is a veteran and well respected feminist. You not agreeing with her does not negate that.

[@jamakaya1332]

@@sarah-janelambert8962 Her framing of feminism in this is absurd.

[@alst4817]

@@sarah-janelambert8962 Putin is a veteran and well respected Russian politician. Must be a great guy, then...

[@sarah-janelambert8962]

@@jamakaya1332 It is my experience that the majority of single issue GC campaigners are not in fact feminists of any kind. I am a second wave feminist from the 1980s onwards and biological essentialism was never a part of our feminism.

[@poshdog123]

There is no right or left when it comes to what is a woman. Adult human female.

[@anantea]

Just from the start she is gaslighting us. "What is a woman" - the "stays in the kitchen" was never part of definition of what woman is. There was an expectation in some societies that presupposed certain role for a woman, but woman itself was still the same. Adult human female. You do not need to say how long hairs she happen to have, what she likes to do and what she has to do to make clear definition what that word means. In all languages around the world at least to my current knowledge. Feminist changed what role woman can choose for herself, but didn't changed the definition or meaning of the word woman.

[@cyclicozone2072]

Exactly

[@layaR3047]

💯

[@HalfB]

Succinctly and eloquently stated!! Her 20 minute bout of logorrhea when asked, ‘what is a woman’, was just an embarrassment of pseudo intellectual transcendental nonsensical word salad.

[@neurotrino3292]

Butler seems to not be able to comprehend it's imperative for women's rights to differentiate between "a woman can be everything" and "everything can be a woman". The former opens the world for women, the later puts us back in the box, because for any concept to be meaningful, there has to be a coherent definition behind it. If that definition isn't grounded in biology - such as a woman is a woman because of her biology as a woman no matter what she looks like, does, says, etc. then what is a woman? By Butler's words, if anyone can become a woman, then for women to be anything at all, you have to fall back on stereotypes or just erase the concept completely, because there is no inherent concept to step into. A trans woman is a trans woman by approximating the concept of womanhood, but they inherently can't enter biological womanhood. By this same token Butler is suggestion, what is the limitation to womanhood? Because any concept has a limitation for it to have a meaning. It's actually by far easier by her logical than any patriarchal one to limit women from the concept of womanhood through their behavior, looks, words, because if they no longer are defined as women by their biology then they can be excluded from it by any other concept.

[@ant47613]

Precisely

[@ZimbaZumba]

This is utter rubbish; she speaks but says nothing. Her words are nothing more than a meaningless religious chant for the faithful.

[@layaR3047]

How insulting, my womanhood is biological and not because of my presentation

[@chrono4998]

mine isn't

[@Christie-ut2eg]

I tried but this was too ridiculous for me.

[@vishalcain]

How so? Butler comes across as rational and well spoken here.

[@williamcoolman8670]

​@@vishalcain It's because it makes less than no sense. It's one constant strawman from the start.

[@jellokween1680]

​@@vishalcain😂😂

[@dewilew2137]

That’s because you have more sense than these people. I’m proud of you, and you should be proud too. 💗

[@JerryM...]

Same. Butler and Sarkar are as ridiculous as each other.

[@jellokween1680]

If only you lot talked about the very real war on Women world wide including the Uk such hypocrisy.

[@bigplanslittledrive4791]

I love how Judith asks for statistics for the risk of having trans women in women’s jail, but gets to just infer what would happen if a trans woman is in a man’s jail “we all know what would happen”. You showed your inconsistency but get to breeze right past it.

[@aidananstey9848]

They have protection wings for vulnerable or at risk inmates, men's prisons aren't safe for many men, do they all get to go to the women's prison too? Funny you NEVER hear of Transmen going into men's prisons. It is the most bizarre thing to have feminists advocating for men over actual women.

[@jamakaya1332]

She mouths contradictions continually and seems oblivious. No intellectual rigor to her thinking at all.

[@Crystalgate]

The risk of having trans women in women's prison is lower for women than the risk for trans men if they are in men's prison, but that's just because of numbers. With transwomen in women's prison, we have a low number of transwomen compared to women while with transmen at men's prison, we would have a high number of men compared to a low number of transmen. Basically, a rabbit is in less danger if there are 100 rabbits and 1 fox in a forest than if there are 1 rabbit and 100 foxes. That does not remove the danger however, it just means it's lower than it could have been.

[@DavidJosephism]

Why not get Hilary Cass involved next time you sit down for a cosy chat. She might introduce some reality into the conversation.

[@sodaaccount]

Yeah, lets invite a person that ignores 98% of all studies available on trans healthcare for their review and then even backpaddles on the report. Not even going into the bias she obviously has...

[@davidwarden4974]

@@sodaaccount Oh really? What's your basis for saying that?

[@sodaaccount]

@@davidwarden4974 Reality? Just read the "report" and you know what I mean. It is clearly disclosed that 101/103 (EDIT: iirc) studies were excluded because they were "weak". Some of those weak studies were used anyway as they painted a transphobic picture, LOL. As to her backpaddling, she gave an interview to the Kite Trust. There she acknowledged that it would be inhumane to conduct double blind studies on trans people (the reason they declared 98% of all studies as weak). “In the data the Cass Review examined, the most common age that trans young people were being initially prescribed puberty suppressing hormones was 15. Dr. Cass’s view is that this is too late to have the intended benefits of suppressing the effects of puberty and was caused by the previous NHS policy of requiring a trans young person to be on puberty suppressing hormones for a year before accessing gender affirming hormones. The Cass Review Report recommends that a different approach is needed, with puberty suppressing hormones and gender affirming hormones being available to young people at different ages and developmental stages alongside a wider range of gender affirming healthcare based on individual need.”

[@sodaaccount]

@@davidwarden4974my reply got hidden for some reason. If you sort by newest you will find it.

[@Mike_Sunshine]

You mean the Hillary Cass that just recinded positions that her report said?

[@Zarqaa_]

I watched this video with an open mind but after finishing this one hour interview, I could say that Butler is “The Queen of Word Salad”. Loads of word salad when the answer can be said in three sentences max. Let alone that most of her answers are descriptive instead of fully addressing the main question. Also you can tell that she doesn’t know what the position of her opponents are. Take for example that Gender Critics actually ENDORSE ‘Gender nonconforming’ and many of them are. Butler is the prophet of poststructuralism, which is illogical, incoherent, and in practice very anti-science. She is also immersed in a world of conjuring enemies where things are purely black and white. It closes the door for any possible self-criticism and self-reflection within this paranoiac movement she wants to create.

[@maystrehmel4615]

I came in here with an open mind, too- well, as open as I can allow lest my brains fall out. That one hour is enough to be fully convinced that Gender Theory/Ideology has no leg to stand on. I can watch debates from the Gender Critics for hours and be enriched with their coherence and rationality. I‘ve always wondered why she has not been on a debate, now I know why. She knows she‘s a fraud.

[@moonsy-9733]

We were more progressive by the late 90s than we are today, transgender ideology is regressive and confining with it's labels. Watching this was tough.

[@tommarsden4510]

You were asked whether you could define in good faith what a woman. After 12 minutes of nonsense your answer was... "why define a woman". Am so pleased Judith that you don't build bridges...

[@sillyguy951]

would love to know what your definition of a woman is without resorting to a circular definition, i.e relying on “adult female” to save you

[@dakinichick]

LOL, "adult human female" IS the definition of the word "woman". Nothing circular about it. Read a book - the dictionary.

[@fackarov9412]

@@sillyguy951 the words "adult" "human" "female" dont need "woman" to be defined so its not circular

[@impossibleagent3663]

Adult human female is not a circular definition for woman.

[@naskirchmayr5636]

@@dakinichick yeah that's a very simple and clear definition. but go read the definition of "female" on dictionary and say farewell to all the simplicity.

[@janearmstrong7945]

like a surprising number of middle-aged alternative people, I wasn't particularly open to new ideas on gender. My children told me just to sit down and watch a bit of Judith and maybe eat a biscuit. Over time, I was able to understand a little better. I would really recommend Judith Butler and Biscuits approach, rather than massively freaking out and radicalising yourself on Twitter because a thing has happened that you don't understand.

[@anfearaerach]

Thank you Jane, for being considerate :) I think that's a good approach, I think that's what my parents did as well after I came out

[@PattisKarriereKarten]

Obviously you don’t understand basic biology. Please study what exactly Postmodernism is. Then you will understand what reality bending Butler does.

[@martybyrnemusic]

@@PattisKarriereKarten We're all biology experts here, didn't you know? Elon has now insisted that all Blue Tick Twitter Accounts prove their expertise in biology and pass an ELON MANDATED BIOLOGY TEST and produce an inexpensive CERTIFICATE before being allowed to scream abuse at trans people!

[@user-uh5cf6yp3q]

That's an interesting way to characterise feminists objecting to, for example, convicted rapists in women's prisons. They are being hysterical, whereas you are, quite reasonably, outsourcing your politics to your children. And there are only people, by the way. There isn't an "alternative" to that.

[@partiellementecreme]

Glad you understood something from her explanation of what a woman is, other than “nothing.”

[@ramdomcomentxqa7346]

Le preguntan que es una mujer y va al significado estetico para justificar que es cualquier cosa menos un significado biologico, es una tonteria. Entonces cualquier palabra debe de significar cualquier cosa que sentido tiene un idioma?. Pura doctrina dogmática.

[@expedition346]

words have different connotations, and in that specific example it wasnt even about the word “woman” but rather the meaning of the entire sentence “what is a woman?”

[@CeridwenBuckmaster]

Very grateful for this conversation. The call for broader alliances, that may be uncomfortable and tough, i really hear that. I want to be part of a movement that is against violence against women, against violence towards trans people and gay and lesbians, against violence against indigenous people. Let’s be wise and work together.

[@user-tf4vt9jh1c]

Thank you Ash, fantastic to see such in-depth discussion around freedoms 🤩 I love Judith Butler & Ash was a perfect interviewer 🫶🏽

[@juliejoy4887]

It's not freedom, it's slavery. The first step, preparation. If you don't see it, I am very sorry.

[@ayeright320]

Within a couple of minutes of starting this she makes a comment about "gender non conforming uncle" - that can only mean something if she had a stereotype in mind. Everything she talks about is with reference to stereotypes - that's all gender is a collection or old fashioned stereotypes.

[@milascave2]

How so? Is gender-nonconforming uncle a stereotype? I've never heard it.

[@Qq-xs1fz]

And trans ideology is strengthening those stereotypes.

[@ayeright320]

​@@milascave2What is he not conforming with?

[@urbansetter1]

​@@Qq-xs1fzfor sure. Tomboys are now trans. It has taken us back to the 60s

[@charlesdaubner1017]

@@milascave2 A gay uncle (an effeminate gay uncle;. not complicated at all; obvious)

[@davidwolstenholme6413]

The onslaught of gender ideology is a threat to women more than men and it makes me sad to see women seeming to back it to the hilt. Id love to see how they dealt with Helen Joyce.

[@yaznin2474]

Great interview. Thank you Ash for always asking the right questions. Never really heard Judith Butler speak before - only knew their name from all the tansphobia panic, great to see they were not snide or cruel to anyone and answered every question with intelligence. Look forward to reading their book.

[@alioxinfree]

Butler is really a good academic and a decent person. The transpanic will only subside with more calm conversations: share this widely, please. 💜

[@memxfgtwjd]

The problem is that even when we are polite, transphobes will spin it any way they can unless peoppe take the time to watch videos like this, and most right wingers don't watch this channel unfortunately, because it'd pretty leftist

[@maverickspirit208]

I came here to take a deeper look into pro trans trans movement and I listened for 19 minutes and 44 seconds, and Butler hasn't directly answered a single question! Everything that comes out of her mouth is twisted.

[@TheSlinq]

There is no logic to the pro-trans movement, in fact when faced with logic it withers up and dies.

[@urbansetter1]

The entire movement is twisted

[@Gingerblaze]

@@urbansetter1 thats the entire point of the theory. Sometimes also called "sophistry"

[@0olong]

The problem here is that some things are quite complicated, you see

[@jamakaya1332]

To post-modern thinkers, everything -- and I mean EVERYTHING -- is relative.

[@casselskeep]

5:26 Femininsts keeping the question open - I dont think femininsts ever debated what a women was? At least not in the main stream. There was an understanding that women exist and the question was around what is their role and what are their limits in society? with the intension of expanding that range. With respect to broadened the category they ask "why stop here?" The response is "why not stop here?" Every category must have a limit. An all encompasing category has no meaning. The the question really is where is the end point for that category?

[@michingmallecho5143]

You ask excellent questions. :)

[@user-rv7ph1jl5y]

Except for as usual. Jb is pretending she doesn't understand the harm that is being done to women under the guise of this change and expansion.

[@ayeright320]

Yep she knows full well but it doesn't fit with her grift

[@asuka_the_void_witch]

i'm statistically more likely to be harmed than a cis woman. give me a break

[@whoisthispianist194]

She’s as disturbed as she is verbose.

[@kattekongen]

Aren't your gender ideology legitimizing male voilence towards women in sports? And sexual voilence in prison? Or is that not relevant now that me changed the categories? What about social contagion? Ever wondered if spreading the gospel so intensely could affect kids that are very suggestionable?

[@dewilew2137]

They don’t give a shit about any of these things.

[@GingerDrums]

Please invite some educated pushback, as the debate is not simply "Butler is correct on gender".

[@charllandsberg]

Thank you! Both of you so much

[@nizzie16]

Listening to Butler is always a treat, but when the interviewer is super excited and having a great time, it’s even better!

[@mikiafu]

You don't like your pope being challenged?

[@ayeright320]

You need to get out more

[@lucienmott9648]

In today's society there are very few expections of how a boy or girl should act or represent their gender.

[@expedition346]

what is “expection”?

[@Tawny593]

​@@expedition346 A typo.

[@fifidownunda]

Judith Butler's views on gender are part of the reason why we are in a mess as a society today.

[@itcouldbelupus2842]

No they aren't. Gender nonconformity is always used as a scapegoat when society is a mess, but gender nonconformity has always been a part of human nature, it's nothing new. You're just falling for tired old propaganda.

[@marcydarcie5884]

I think you missed the point where she said that that's the narrative that is being pushed so that you blame other struggling people for low pay and shitty living conditions

[@chrisharvey7461]

lol because society's always been neat and tidy

[@Inquiringmind0]

@@chrisharvey7461 It wasn't neat or tidy but it was never this absurd with so much cultural degeneration.

[@expedition346]

@@Inquiringmind0 “cultural degeneration”. lmao are you lost

[@Bianca-pw5cn]

All oppression is connected, animals also deserve liberation 🐣

[@reaceness]

A squirrel lives in my garden rent-free.

[@chibu3212]

Making all oppression to be connected eliminates the significance between them.

[@sophiepooks2174]

@@chibu3212 What significance? That our capitalist imperialist or any authoritarian dictatorship depends on oppression as a feature of that system continuing?

[@incurableromantic4006]

But what *is* an animal?

[@Trollika_Devi]

@@incurableromantic4006 A creature that identifies as one is an animal. Oh wait ....

[@lozzybozzy234]

A great discussion. I do feel the question about whether self ID applied to race wasn't satisfactorily answered though. The reality at the moment is that there are very few examples of people wishing to identify as a different race as compared to gender. But I imagine this was the case with gender in the past. How do we know the feeling of being a different race isn't currently being suppressed, and would we accept it in the future if the numbers identifying as a different race increased?

[@ayeright320]

You give that a go and see how it works out for you

[@AstarteDevi]

False equivalence: transphobia and anti semitism being linked…brutal

[@ezequiel2527]

It’s interesting how many times reinforcement of societal gender norms was confirmed in this conversation.

[@philsanders9625]

It's accessible. And everyone needs a jumping off point that is grounded in their reality. I myself appreciated some simple anchors. Given at the end you reflect on it, but the fight isn't for ground zero on social identity. Its about taking ground back from ignorance. You don't teach math with algebra. You start with the numbers.

[@bobbsurname3140]

​@@philsanders9625Then why not start with biological reality rather than the seemingly idosyncratic social norms that have developed over the course of millenia? Then you might learn why those social norms exist in the first place, and thereby learn why it's idiotic to use them as a proxy for becoming the opposite sex.

[@amyaplomb666]

@@philsanders9625 and when talking about gender and sex stereotypes, you start with the immutable nature of sex. A transwoman is only a transwoman because they are a male sexed person.

[@l-y-d-s]

I grew up never being told what it "means" to be a man or a woman, my parents are feminists. I can't help but think that religion plays a large role in people holding onto gender roles.

[@alvodin6197]

But even if you weren't "told" directly, society tells us the way things are. Most learning is aquired, not instructed, such as language. You need to know that bigots, such as Richard Dawkins, also don't like transgendered and queer people. Religion has a par, but being conservative is more of a factorx and that doesn't necessarily equate religion, especially if you look outside the US. Sorry, I thought I had to add that, just saying are implicit values that we learn or aquire in society without having lessons on it.

[@kevinjohnson9533]

Yes, because religion can be an expression not of spirituality but of authority. God the father, is the chief guy in charge and he must be obeyed. Faith constitutes the rules that lay down fundamental rules of being that cannot be contravened.

[@JohnnyComelately-eb5zv]

​@@alvodin6197I bet you use the word 'bigot' a lot. Dawkins is a liberal. He's also a scientist.

[@happinesstan]

@@kevinjohnson9533 religion is only ever an expression of authority. Faith is different thing altogether

[@jiffjaffa3992]

@@JohnnyComelately-eb5zv He's also been roundly condemned for anti-semitism, Islamaphobia, and promoting classist eugenic ideology - as well as several pseudo-scientific ideas.

[@shmeet]

_____________She never answered what a woman is.

[@stephanieejoyce]

Philosophy isn’t about answers it’s about questions

[@mewho6199]

She wasn't really asked that question. The question was, "What do people mean when they ask that question?" So basically, they avoided having to define "woman."

[@shmeet]

@@mewho6199 Same thing, same answer. Q. What is a woman? A. adult human female Q. "What do people mean when they ask that question?" A. They're asking if you think a woman is an adult human female. Either/or, they end up at the same thing. Her answer should have been 'They're asking if you think a woman is an adult human female."

[@barbarasumrok8321]

She doesn’t know.

[@shmeet]

@@barbarasumrok8321 _______________Of course she does. Everyone knows.

[@ruthhorowitz7625]

I came to hear garbage and I wasn't disappointed.

[@ant47613]

When she said that she doesn't understand any of the gener crtitical stuff, I thought "I'm not surprised". One needs a functioning, open, and not ideologically corrupted mind for that

[@NickyM_0]

Well said!

[@dewilew2137]

It doesn’t even require an open mind. Just common sense.

[@ant47613]

@@dewilew2137 absolutely

[@Verity_Truth666]

Really? Judith Butler? The woman makes no sense, people, she is not capable of a coherent sentence. Do you actually expect anyone to take you seriously?

[@eigentlichtoll02]

it sounded reasonable to me. but I'll watch it again..

[@jcimsn8464]

Yet all institutions are teaching queer theory

[@MixalisBentzios]

When a person replies to a question with the phrase "it depends who's asking.." ok.. Dear they, reality is hard for you

[@v_6302]

Words contain meaning and are filled with conotations. If a judge asks you if you like children, he could mean if you are pedophile, but asking the same from parents, is more like smalltalk about family, etc. Transphobes use that, as she clearly describes in the talk, that its used to discredit people that feel unomfortable giving a clear answere, because they dont want to exclude trans people. Others use that to try and better understand a topic. The goal is different, so the answere should be different to.

[@nocturnal03]

@@v_6302 the answer is clear, and people avoid giving it because men aren't women so transwomen are men.

[@ClitmasterDave]

Its great when you click newest on comments, i wonder when KZbin will do away with that like the dislike to give a false representation of popular public opinion.

[@v_6302]

The newest comments also include people whos comments are later deleted because: Unwanted commercial content or spam Pornography or sexually explicit material Child abuse Hate speech or graphic violence Promotes terrorism Harassment or bullying Suicide or self injury Misinformation Legal issue Sure thats public opinion, but also extremist views, neutral people comment less, so get a bias. There is a extension for the browser called "Return KZbin Dislikes". I may not agree with you on things but i still want a objective and scientific view.

[@Swagkonge]

Was so glad I got to attend this, Judith was great and I got to ask them a Q at the end - thanks for hosting :-)

[@LimeyRedneck]

I'm a bit disappointed that we didn't get to hear any audience questions 😔 Also, jealous! 😁

[@alioxinfree]

Likely questions weren't included bc of sound/no mic or no signoff of permission when audience came in to release their image use. (I'm an AV tech, that's the 2 most common reasons especially for early sessions and small orgs.) Audience: always eat the mic with your question and offer to sign a release or it won't be used in videos.

[@martybyrnemusic]

@@alioxinfree Bit of a shame about the mic feedback in this, huh? I didn't want to moan about it, but come on, it's Judith Butler! Get the tech shit together!

[@ayeright320]

She talks absolute nonsense that would fall apart on the first challenge. No way she is taking questions

[@EliasJWhite]

@@ayeright320 They did though.

[@upnorth2421]

Oh dear. We do have a real wars going on, climate change and poverty. Could someone please try to tackle those?

[@hengis73]

One of the best interviews with Judith I have seen. She is comfortable and able to explain the broader way of thinking, not have to defend or attack an arguement

[@umamicashflow1809]

She sneers that her opponents haven't done their homework about what they're criticizing but then demonstrates she has no idea about the substance of their criticisms. Unbecoming and sloppy.

[@user-uh5cf6yp3q]

When have you ever seen her defend an argument in a situation where her nonsense is actually challenged?

[@HughEMC]

Judith is the epitome of sophistry

[@raincadeify]

@@umamicashflow1809 "She sneers"? Really? You might be projecting.

[@umamicashflow1809]

​@@raincadeify "Sneers" was used metaphorically to indicate the arrogance of the behavior that was the subject of my comment. Funny how you completely ignored its substance to nitpick its vocabulary. Very Butlerian.

[@EdwardDuhaime]

Judith Butler proves that any idiotic ideology can always be backed up with seemingly plausible rationalizations that a lot of otherwise well meaning and highly educated and intelligent people will fall for. Novara Media, which otherwise does a lot of good journalism, should know better.

[@mattwa33186]

I tried. I really tried.

[@antonyshadowbanned]

😅😂

[@noklarok]

i lasted 10 seconds

[@williamcoolman8670]

You shouldn't have

[@garyg1705]

listened to the whole thing but heard nothing persuasive or to convince me that anything she said was anything but waffle.

[@CustomMap]

First minute was really insulting. It's a bad look for someone to not engage with anything from the other side and just hand wave it away as fearmongering.

[@barbarasumrok8321]

Butler is so condescending.

[@DavidJosephism]

If Butler is in favour of unlimited migration then Butler is an unwitting supporter of the economic neoliberalism Butler affects to despise.

[@exinferiz]

Biology > Social Constructivism

[@RADMIL-ro1rl]

Only through a return to a class based politics which fights for universal freedom and global solidarity can current problems, including otherness, be solved.

[@KitschKiss-pi8wp]

This woman's brain is so addled. Gender simply identifies a human being's sex. It has nothing to do with socially perceived activities. They have had to change the entire language used in order to make a case for quite frankly, nothing. Male and Female is all that is relevant

[@Bette9]

Bless you Ash Sarkar for your advocacy and integrity. And big love to Judith Butler too of course! I think their insights around gender are getting sharper every time they speak.

[@alioxinfree]

Butler emphasizes coalitions against fascism that uses fear of their own stuff being taken away to get people to agree to giving up human rights for everyone. More healthcare, more social agency, more history, more work, more funding, more art, more science research happens with equity and inclusion.

[@ayeright320]

Everyone else stopped being interested in gender stereotypes in about 1950 but Judith's still trying to put us in little boxes

[@Bette9]

@@ayeright320 That seems like such a strange perspective to me. Do you have a concrete example of Butler’s gender stereotyping?

[@alst4817]

@@Bette9 C'mon you only have to go about 5 mins through the interview to get to the first example. That's just being lazy...

[@Bette9]

@@alst4817 Can you be more specific? Clearly I wasn’t watching closely enough.

[@USASPORTSCARDS]

This is the part of Novara I’m not left enough for

[@Daniel-mo1uy]

Novara is not left enough for you on this issue.

[@climaksy1659]

Identity politics are the very definition of Moderate/Centrist. You are not alone brothers and sisters.

[@jiffjaffa3992]

@@climaksy1659 What's the point of a Left that doesn't challenge socially constructed identities?

[@dancelittlesquire]

Ya chatting slop. Social liberalism and economic liberalism are not inseparable. In fact, social liberalism and leftist politics can be very happy bedfellows.

[@daydreamer83]

@@climaksy1659 Clip kicks off with Butler critiquing neoliberal and its multifarious social impacts -all fine. Then you remember they donated to Cop-ala Harris in the 2020 primary. Wendy Brown is definitely the 'based' one in that partnership.

[@jellokween1680]

Stop gas lighting us just stop its disgusting.

[@markhla427]

Good questions Ash, but i would like to have probed into the distinction between what someone "is" amd what someone "does". I think this is fundamental in this discussion, and without clarification it causes a circular argument e.g. "Are you a woman?" This is an 'is' question for some and a 'does' question for others.

[@LucianWheelerLPW]

I think one of the points made in Judith's book, Gender Trouble, is that someone's gender is the result of repeated gendered acts (hair, clothes, speech etc). So in a way it equates what people are and what they do. A bit of a chicken and egg question

[@biometronome7010]

What do we do about purely physiological definitions that have been named "male" "female" and "intersex"? Is it good to mix them with "gender" which is a social construct? Like, "race" is a social construct, but the amount of melanin in one's skin is a measurable fact

[@o_o8203]

Because the human neuropsychology has an extremely difficult time dealing with nuance

[@Muzikman127]

In a way I think you've partially answered your own question, we are able to distinguish concepts like "fair/dark/light/brown etc. skinned" from concepts like "white"/"black"/"South Asian"/"Puerto Rican"/"Malay" etc. etc. etc. even though there is obviously some relationship between them, often a fairly strong one, but not at all 1 to 1, and it's obvious that the latter are socially defined categories. Isn't that basically how it is with gender & sex characteristics too?

[@Muzikman127]

Actually, having thought about it more, I think my previous comment is a real oversimplification lol. Never mind 🙃

[@Muzikman127]

Like the above comment is fine as a first pass, and probably a useful way to outline things and draw distinctions, but actually yeah it falls apart a bit under too much scrutiny. Like sex itself is also to an extent a constructed category not just a clear essential/natural one. And words like "white" and "black" sometimes clearly describe social categories, other times more just describe a phenotype, and other times the distinction isn't made, or clear. Just like with sex vis-a-vis gender. I guess, in conclusion, I don't really know how taxonomizing this stuff really works idk ask someone smarter? Philosophy make brain tired...

[@Feellikealady99]

​​@@Muzikman127 you can't just say sex is to an extent a constructed category without explaining why. Because, that's kind of the crux of the matter.

[@rositalibre120]

Trans meannes online is 1,000% more than women´s. Did anyone see the insults JK Rowling received from the trans war?

[@jackiecornwall9160]

Interested that the question is 'what is a woman? not 'what is a man'. Trans women are sometimes quite aggressive about their right to female identity. It's very complex psychologically, much more so than the trans rights lobby would admit.

[@dewilew2137]

Well, males tend to be aggressive.

[@climaksy1659]

"I wouldn't say i buy this, lets just say i'm window shopping, and right now theres a half price sale on weird."

[@wingtipzzz]

You are polite. I'm with you.

[@jeremyhall2727]

🤨.. ok

[@expedition346]

irrelevant

[@japanesetoenglish]

The answer to the question about race seems very evasive. Clearly the question threatens the whole ontology of Butler's worldview, so it is set aside with a historical argument rather than a philosophical one.

[@zeliagonzales9422]

Also in response to the engaging population - the conversation can move from reproduction to economic reorganizing. The aging population calls capitalism into question, not reproduction or falling birth rates. As Judith said, the earth could handle less of humans.

[@zeliagonzales9422]

Aging*

[@expedition346]

however, if we are to ever transition to a society based on allocation to those in need, we certainly have to consider intergenerational population proportionality, regardless of our technological level. this does not necessitate patriarchal fixation with birth rates however-we just need a certain continuity (ie no booms nor busts)

[@partiellementecreme]

17:33 is where I stopped listening, with Butler actually claiming that we terves recommend that transwomen be sexually violated, after a good ten minutes of wind to the effect that woman is a category without boundaries, with everything and nothing inside it. This particular boomer is the platonic ideal of academic insanity. Her dishonesty about the opposing side is insulting and not worth listening to behind this point.

[@CatrinaDaimonLee]

one terf, two terves?

[@v_6302]

Well by forcing them to go in the bathroom that matches their sex instead of their gender, you are literally forcing woman into men-toilets etc. Wich often leads to sexual violation. One thing for the terfs (not terves): What about trans men? They are now forced to be in womens spaces where they also dont want to be. Yes sexual assault is a lesser problem, but still you will whine. And why? Because its not about that.

[@expedition346]

@@v_6302 “Well by forcing them to go in the bathroom that matches their sex instead of their gender”. strawman. apparently no one has thought of third gender bathrooms. “What about trans men?” no one talks about trans men because they dont pose sexual-violent threat to men; why does no one realize this?

[@jamakaya1332]

To post-modernists, everything is relative; there is no stable meaning. It's a free pass to mouth nonsense.

[@tygerlillee]

Do whatever you want when you are adult. But keep your ideology out of children's malleable minds.

[@expedition346]

pot calling the kettle black.

[@asuka_the_void_witch]

right back at yuou

[@Harrier_DuBois]

Ash has such good diction. She is such a class act.

[@zoe_blackmore]

This such an excellent & accessible interview/conversation full of commonsense, intelligence and sprinkled with wonderful humour. Definately a delight.

[@ayeright320]

Commonsense?? What is a woman - waffle waffle waffle nonsense.... Still no answer....

[@kattekongen]

Women is on the one hand a biological thing related to chromosomes, anatomy and hormones. On the other hand there is "gender identity", which is kind of whatever. Why do we always have to mix it up?

[@asuka_the_void_witch]

the same way a platypus lays eggs

[@jamakaya1332]

Not everyone mixes it up. It serves the interests of gender ideology.

[@eliashe1797]

Reclaim feminism: this may go beyond butler's point, but to my mind along with terfs there are issues with the 'online feministas'; these folks seem to lack any sense of being self critical, oft lack in understanding that there are actually different views within feminism that don't always agree, and tend far more heavily towards the misandrist bent.

[@annaa5549]

7:00 So after minutes of talking in circles, this expert can't define what a woman is either, and that's one of many, many problems about gender ideology. It trumps humanity and common sense. This is why the world is better without this than with it, on balance. The definition of a woman has been straightforward throughout history. Why are trans ideologues changing the definition of what a woman is and forcing others to accept it, when they can't define it themselves, and when their expanded definition of womanhood trample upon the rights of others?

[@ImTheCitizenInsane]

Fantastic interview but I don't understand why the sound is so bad, always at the limit of the larsen. Was there no sound tech?

[@liam7342]

The biological essentialism argument only works if you stop studying biology before the age of 16 and then claim to be an expert based on that.

[@neovxr]

The Yin has a Yang in metaphysics. A Buddhist might say: You have lived in a female body a thousand times, and in a male body quite as often, and now you are still not getting it? At the same time I totally agree to Butler saying that people have the right to choose a style of living and presenting themselves.

[@RikPurde]

Richard Dawkins and Robert Winston would beg to differ, and I'm pretty sure they got beyond GCSE...

[@aky10011]

Didnt know female and male anatomy became the same after the age of 16. Thanks for info.

[@ethelmini]

@@RikPurde Ah the good ol' appeal to authority ruse - Dawkins said sex is binary. Whether or not that's true it does not make it congruent with gender. However, he did explain how transphobics would get that wrong with his meme hypothesis.

[@ethelmini]

@@aky10011 It also appears that you don't understand how variation is an essential component of evolution and social animals aren't constrained to sex specific gender roles.

[@rositalibre120]

There is only one feminism: The struggle to ensure women´s rights.

[@jameswall6270]

Such utter rubbish.

[@biancapeter3227]

I dont think being unhappy with the expectations of your gender, as dictated by society, is reason enough to decide that you were born the wrong gender. Loads of people don't agree with society's expectations or experience of being a certain gender, or race or religion.

[@voltijuice8576]

It's often not about other people's expectations about how to live, so much as one's own. If you've got to live in that body and those roles every day of your life, why not customize them to suit you?

[@zvezda4701]

That still doesnt' delegitimize trans people's identities though.

[@jeremyhall2727]

Yeah I agree with you

[@expedition346]

what do you mean by “gender”? you seem to be conflating concepts

[@ethelmini]

First time I've heard Judith, very impressive. How they are able to reduce a controversial & often emotive topic to simple, yet extremely focused logical propositions should be a lesson to our politicians & policy makers.

[@nataliekhanyola5669]

This is all waffling and sophistry. Hardly anything logical about her statement.

[@sophiepooks2174]

@@nataliekhanyola5669 Of course you can intellectualize prejudice anyway you like, to claim a persons logical world view doesn't meet your personal cultural bias, so not add up by your logic doesn't mean the other persons thinking is illogical, you just lack empathy or understanding of nuance for their particular points.

[@ayeright320]

​@@sophiepooks2174"you lack empathy" there you go - the ad hominem attack because this person can see what rubbish this women talks and you can't.

[@achipinthesugar]

Straw maaaaannnnnnnnnn. Butler has made no attempt to understand her opponents. That's a bummer, as she's quite engaging and smart.

[@danielpearson2449]

I’m sorry, what was the Israeli comment at 45:55????

[@expedition346]

oh no boohoo u mad bro

[@rnshah613]

Ash really on it - great Qs

[@urielpolak9949]

Wow what a terrible human

[@DumpsterFlower]

Iconic moment: "Ash Sarkar: As you say in your book, no one person or class can own a gender category... Judith Butler: [interrupting] Well Beyoncé does" Who'd have thought Judith Butler would out-sass Ash!

[@Janemas]

but categories are invented as it develops visually.

[@leerobson6809]

What a great conversation. Challenging, informative inspirational and importantly a lot of fun too! Well done Ash and Judith. ✊🏼

[@moe_factz]

Exhibit A of why intersectionality was doomed from the beginning.

[@doroiswatchingyou]

this was a delight!

[@Madame-Julie]

Among many other philosophers, I also read Judith Butler's books whilst at University more than a decade ago. Interesting, BUT, I view all philosophers' concepts as based on their life perspectives, and the world of Butler is viewed from Butler's eyes - no matter how much research and critical thinking is going on. All of Butler's points are not from true objectiveness as this is impossible to achieve. These are subjective view points and possibly begin with Butler's own childhood experiences...??? I don't disagree but I also don't agree. Interestingly, the last comment was personally telling from Butler, as it included the words Hierarchy and Oppression, so on that note, I don't want to be referred as a CIS, chest feeder, and all the other silly things...

[@Hannibal082]

I feel like Butler didn’t really give a real concrete reason as to why Tranracialism should be ridiculed and rejected but not Transgenderism.

[@Narapoia1]

There's not sufficient intellectual honesty or internal consistency in the definitions and reasoning used by the modern transgender movement for her to do that. They know there's no logical defence to limit 'identification' to gender under their ideology, but it's not acceptable to many people that accept their ideology to apply it to race. So they can't offer an internally consistent condemnation of the idea of race identification, without it also applying to gender identification, and they can't accept it as being part of their ideological framework. So when you ask the question you get waffle as an answer.

[@seanshamblin1131]

​@@Narapoia1 Exactly. Well put.

[@TheOmnitom]

Truth, it's all a transhumanist movement

[@calumlambert]

​@Narapoia1 I can give you a clear answer as a trans woman. Please explain to me what hormones that I can take to become a different race? Humans on a development level have both sexes inside of them to some extent. We all start female. 50 percent of the time it develops onto male. Basically, we all have inside of us gender and sex already and it's there to be used regardless of race. Race doesn't work like that medically and a white person doesn't likely have any capacity inside of them to become Asian as they weren't born with that inside of them. There. Perfectly, scientifically answered. By the way, yes I am the one you are refusing to answer in the LBC. Where I have completely pulled apart your moral panic over us and provided zero backing for any of your wild claims. Most notably comparing our healthcare to lobtamies which I found hilariously inaccurate.

[@Hannibal082]

@@calumlambert but there are no hormones you can take to become a woman, only simulate womanhood and that’s not the same thing. Scientifically the entire human race originated in Africa so why can’t a white person say he has ‘African inside of him’. Also what if a white blonde person discovers that he is 13% percent ‘Japanese’ in him, can he then claim to be transracial? Get all the surgeries on his eyes? Dye his hair? Learn Japanese? Live in Japan? Does he become Asian/Japanese? No one is a pure example of any race , to some extent you could argue that we are all inter-related , so why can’t we identify as each other’s races?

[@antjackson4471]

Room full of sycophants. Utterly depressing. She’s good at defending Men’s rights though.

[@v_6302]

No counterarguments, and its spelled "psychopath"

[@chelemab20]

@v_6302 What is spelt “psychopath”?? (And while we’re at it, it’s spelt “being” not “beeing” and “which”, not “wich”).

[@moonpixelle]

Great interview, would love to see Novara doing more of these kinds of interviews and feminist events.

[@soulfoodie1]

This ain't feminist

[@VoteBidentoSaveDemocracy]

@@soulfoodie1 You don't have to hatewatch KZbin.

[@JohnnyComelately-eb5zv]

Orwellian use of the word 'feminist.' Strange times.

[@moonpixelle]

@@JohnnyComelately-eb5zv there's nothing Orwellian (really you meant dystopian) about calling contemporary feminist debate, feminist.

[@JohnnyComelately-eb5zv]

@@moonpixelle No. I meant Orwellian. Look in a dictionary. It's Orwellian to describe a men's rights movement as feminist. Nothing to do with 'dystopia.' Although, if you have your way we may well be in a dystopia.

[@rositalibre120]

A choice of profession, expression, manner of dressing does not a woman make, nor does it make a man. Both, women, and men, have a diversity of likes, dislikes, and preferences. Diversity of likes, choices, or expression does not dissect people into hairline categories.

[@hunterseufert8066]

Why can't I find her debating anyone? Such a coward.

[@acacia_w]

Whilst this was an interesting conversation, nothing Butler said has made me rethink my position in respect to trans.

[@angelainamarie9656]

Unless you're either trans or one of our healthcare providers, we aren't asking for your approval, FYI. Nor should we need to, this doesn't concern your life.

[@garyg1705]

@@angelainamarie9656so non trans people needn't watch this and can't possibly have an opinion?

[@angelainamarie9656]

@@garyg1705 you don't have a legitimate opinion. That's absolutely correct you aren't part of this discussion. Learn some concept of what's your personal business.

[@angelainamarie9656]

@@garyg1705 how could what someone else is doing with their genitalia possibly have any bearing on your life unless you've been invited into that person's life.

[@garyg1705]

@@angelainamarie9656 why don't i have a legitimate opinion? what is my opinion?

[@rexcarrulers6504]

“The most striking difference between ancient and modern sophists is that the ancients were satisfied with a passing victory of the argument at the expense of truth, whereas the moderns want a more lasting victory at the expense of reality” Hannah Arendt, The Origins of Totalitarianism. Butler is a Sophist personified.

[@sasha_something]

It’s fascinating how criticism of Butler so rarely touches on anything they’ve written or said. Here: “Butler is a sophist.” Why? Dunno. Because you said so, I suppose.

[@rexcarrulers6504]

@@sasha_something . I find it equally fascinating, that the confirmation bias, and celebration of cognitive dissonance evoked by the words of Butler is rife.. She espouses rhetoric that is at best contradictory, and at worst disingenuous, but she remains the go to figurehead when it comes to all things transgender, so much so she has made a successful career out of it. Her 1990 book, Gender Trouble as one example, introduces the now-mainstreamed (academic) concept that gender, sex, and the “category of woman” are “fluid.” "The main conundrum faced by gender identity ideologues today (and, by proxy, women’s rights advocates), which they have refused to respond to in a cohesive way, is that, 1) If there is no concrete definition of “woman,” what is a “woman’s right”? And 2) If a woman is not a material thing, but just a vague idea, why the concerted, often violent effort to insist “transwomen are [literally] women”? What does that mean? What is a woman? And why is it important we “accept transwomen as women” (particularly if there is no such thing)? What are we accepting them as, and how does it improve a male person’s life to be “accepted as a woman”? Hence my use of Sophist to describe her.

[@ronmackinnon9374]

@@rexcarrulers6504 When I clicked on this video, I was prepared to give this perspective a fair hearing. But they (plural, the two of them) lost me with the casual, group-loyalty-signaling use of the derogatory term 'terf'.

[@marcydarcie5884]

​@@ronmackinnon9374terf isn't derogatory it just means trans exclusionary radical feminist

[@expedition346]

@@marcydarcie5884 “terf” is sometkmes used derogatorily