Feminist icon Judith Butler on JK Rowling, trans rights, feminism and intersectionality

Judith Butler is one of the most famous feminist scholars on earth. In this interview, we discuss the relationship between trans rights and feminism, why transphobia is so rampant in the UK, JK Rowling's interventions on trans rights, what intersectionality is and why it's important - and much more.
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[@giuliyutiub]

Owen you'll be remembered for your hideous war on women, in favour of regressive gender roles and dudes in a dress. Woman is not a costume. You're a disgrace

[@JamesSmith-cx4pw]

You claim to be against capitalism but here you are asking for money for the service you supply. That’s capitalism you hypocrite

[@DeeDurbin]

Dude you ARE the right.

[@simonhughes6267]

Owen jones is a terrible human being. He deserves no platform, the majority of society hate him.

[@georgebowling842]

Wow - here for the comments and not disappointed. Owen you must have zero self-awareness.

[@disorderJAPAN]

Anyone else jealous of the amount of books in the background ?

[@lavandergoth]

Ikr, I wish I were also in Judith Butler's bookshelf 😫

[@nickbatt399]

that many books makes my freaking heart pound

[@katarinahinsey3931]

Jealous that she's a book hoarder? No.

[@justsomerandomname2067]

Im jealous of people who want to and do read so many books

[@phosphenevision]

@@katarinahinsey3931 "hoarding" means you are excessively collecting things which have no use or value to you, i highly doubt butler doesn't make full use of their library, no one writes like they do unless they have extensive literary knowledge.

[@authenticbaguette6673]

The "B" in Butler stands for "Based".

[@terrybunch7313]

You will never pass

[@minerva9104]

@@terrybunch7313 return to the dark depths from whence you came, fiend.

[@ShazyShaze]

​@@terrybunch7313 back 2 /pol/

[@terrybunch7313]

@@ShazyShaze Back to tumblr

[@SkyKidShyKid]

@@terrybunch7313 you will never find love

[@JordanSullivanadventures]

I need more content like this in my feed: slow, deliberate, tackling real issues both theoretically and practically with a feminist ICON. Especially interesting to hear how Butler's views have changed over the years.

[@miagilaani5853]

I'm new to her work, how have her views changed tho?

[@aspringephemeral]

yes! i truly appreciated hearing her in depth, andhow mindful and intersectional her thinking is now and how she admits, that her views have changed, and she became open to listening to others. some circles have written her off and called her a transphobe, which after truly hearing her out i find extremely unsettling and reactionary. she seems to be one of the few feminist scholars i have seen as well, that actively acknowledges that other cultures have languages for varying gender roles and identities. much of the discussion around this "newness" of this "emergence" of trans people is downright white centred and highly dismissive of indigenous cultural traditions and histories.

[@ThanatosWings]

I'm happy to learn that Butler is my first non binary philosopher I've read. It's so great having representation of my gender in philosophy.

[@ghettophilosoph29]

She is a woman

[@firouz4296]

I'm happy that Butler is NOT the first non binary philosopher I've read. It's so great having Camille Paglia's representation of my gender in philosophy.

[@kdixuebw7884bfb]

Lol

[@nylpurfi9896]

@@firouz4296 look up what paglia thinks about allen ginsburg. I hope she’s changed her mind since then but…

[@exhater7820]

@@ghettophilosoph29 you admitted she was non bianary in another transphobic comment. Pick a side .

[@mlee3238]

It's amazing to see how much self-reflection and humility someone like Butler is able to exercise despite her critical acclaim. Even the fact that she was willing to accept and evaluate her own earlier works on gender performativity based on criticism from the transgender community is also the sort of humility I think more academics and public figures need - and the fact that she speaks with such grace and poise. She's honestly such an inspiration. Thanks so much for doing this, Owen!

[@ochsliker]

*they

[@HeyNonyNonymous]

Compare that to the complete inability of terfs to examine their own ideaology (or as Abigail Thorn would put it: their but hole...).

[@bradleyhillier-smith3706]

May I request more interviews with philosophers like this. So many amazing contemporary philosophers working on pressing issues which ought to be discussed.

[@fe5018]

@@sloppysecondssunak5920, thankfully plenty on the left do see Butler's waffle for the nonsense it is. I'd be mortified if this was the best the left had on offer; thankfully it's not.

[@l.w.paradis2108]

@@sloppysecondssunak5920 "Frames of War" and "Precarious Life" are absolutely brilliant and lucidly written books, with deep meditations on ethics and its relation to politics. I haven't been interested in the books Butler wrote that are always mentioned in connection with her.

[@l.w.paradis2108]

@@sloppysecondssunak5920 Have you read those?

[@faris1902]

@@sloppysecondssunak5920 its lovely that when i see comments like these, they are rarely ever backed up with substantive criticisms or counterarguments.

[@emilasanov6310]

I'm in love with Judith Butler's background - so many books and so many bookcases! What a library!

[@Johnconno]

She's a big Mills + Boone fan.

[@Grappapappa]

Robin DiAngelo had a similar one behind her in one interview.

[@marwar819]

@@GrappapappaBooks cases behind speakers are the same shallow arrogant narcissism as trans ideology.

[@sophiepooks2174]

@@Johnconno Takes one to know one ay?

[@Johnconno]

@@sophiepooks2174 Not in this case. X

[@stellaboulton9531]

The echo chamber's deafening.

[@crisroblescr]

“It’s always dangerous when a n American comes nd tell you what’s wrong in your own country” ♥️

[@celiabarrett2107]

Yes, we have countless examples of that. But new labour were always in love with the US.

[@jellypianist]

Thanks for this interview. I liked that you made space for Butler to expound on your prompts, a pleasure to hear their mind at work.

[@louisesumrell6331]

Anger is only one possible reaction to fear, but when you are angry it's always a response to fear.

[@Lala-cw7ez]

Why do they confuse gender and sex all the time?

[@chrisbaker3066]

Because THEY are ignorant of the facts!

[@MajoraWaffle]

​@@chrisbaker3066 tHe FaCtS

[@JamesChatting]

This is not feminism. It rips women of their rights.

[@MajoraWaffle]

🥱 oh look, a recent TERF comment on a 3+ year old video. which f*scist did you come from to raid this time, hmmm?

[@aaronpischke5019]

Butler's writings felt nearly impossible to fully comprehend when I was in college, but this talk was WONDERFUL and very easy to follow. Thank you so much for sharing!

[@randalbudd8291]

I too found it dence . She makes you think .

[@LizaFan]

One of my favorite moments in the second preface: "GT sometimes reads as if gender is simply a self-invention or that the psychic meaning of a gendered presentation might be read directly off its surface. Both of these postulates have had to be refined over time." I love their writerliness, that I can glean new insight, relative to the reading.

[@rebal1681]

Because her writing is truly terrible.

[@jennywren118]

If you've been persuaded to accept the incoherent and nonsensical ramblings of a pseudo intellectual cult leader, as legitimate and factually based observations, you have been successfully indoctrinated into a cult.

[@bh8920]

I agree completely. Managed half of gender trouble and gave up in petulant self loathing for not being able to understand early gender theory by Judith.

[@tonycairns6728]

"Sex is assigned by institutions" 🤭 Are we supposed to take JB seriously? Apparently, the sex of an infant is merely a consequence of 'social and legal' forces? What a ridiculous thinker! 😂

[@agstinacueva1673]

Objectively it is. Sex assigned at birth is a mere bureoucracy that becomes part of your identity (or not). I was called a man for wearing men's clothes even though I have a vagina. Either you live under a rock or you are delusional.

[@lisaeliasson8133]

This was incredibly interesting thank you for making this video! So many points and arguments I have never thought about before!

[@saywhaaat11]

I think some ppl think this is the daily mail comments section.. Jokes aside thanks Owen for this free masterclass from Judith... As a gender and sexuality graduate student who's read Judith's work this is realllly valuable...!!!!

[@effy7932]

BHAHAHAHAHA

[@samguest78]

Haha so you’ve just dropped 40 grand down the drain on the most made up, unintelligent, useless jargon out there

[@saywhaaat11]

@@samguest78 lol ur cute.

[@MajoraWaffle]

​@@samguest78 seethe harder

[@benjamins4699]

Truly baffled that people in the comments would disagree that Butler is a feminist icon! Gender Trouble was so seminal in changing how we interact with discussions of sex and gender and Butler has promoted feminism more than most public figures in most of our lifetimes. Excellent conversation and a must-listen!

[@kraigetrueman1954]

surviving sexual violence does not make you transphobic. stop using such baloney as cover for hatred.

[@angrydonutface7420]

They're transphobes who think that being trans and supporting the trans community is anti-feminist.

[@njlloyd2881]

People who want her to remove the label of being a feminist are always those who hate trans people. The same people call themselves feminists yet wouldn't want to be stripped of that label whilst simultaneously stripping Judith of the label. Supporting trans people doesn't mean you're no longer a feminist. These ppl couple trans female violence and cis male violence despite the stats of prisons not supporting that view. They just hate trans women full stop.

[@SansaCarioca]

That library... looks-like heaven. Can I move in?

[@victoriamasamoros6552]

I just wrote a final on her and nietzsche and this interview would've helped me so much lol I love her!

[@fe5018]

What do you love in particular? What resonated most with you that you lover her?

[@zacharyzane9275]

@j sauce idk wut u mean

[@lamb4lifexox]

What was the paper about ?

[@amess3921]

No way, me too! It's due in two days lol

[@dinkypinky6520]

I Wana read it, send me a link.

[@MS-ol7ds]

Dr. Stock and Judith Butler would have been better to bring together as guests for a debate. I believe Judith would crack , she keeps contradicting herself.

[@orsors2129]

"Assigned sex at birth" - I absolutely HATE this expression.

[@TheLeksilijum]

Well they observe, they assume, they assign. I mean countless of intersex people are getting assigned male or female at birth because those who observe don't know what they are doing in fact.

[@tomjohnson6860]

@@TheLeksilijum By 'countless' you're referring to something that is actually counted very effectively. It affects about one in one thousand births - roughly ten times rarer than Downs Syndrome.

[@TheLeksilijum]

@@tomjohnson6860 They are countless in the sense that they are not going to stop being born and that their number isn't limited. And I know they are rare, but actually roughly the same number as gingers. But what does that mean, exactly? What are you suggesting?

[@Grappapappa]

@@TheLeksilijum In Swedish "sex" means "six".

[@TheLeksilijum]

@@Grappapappa and how do you say пол ?

[@baharalmasi]

Until I saw this video I thought surely she would rethink her take knowing how many rights have been taken from women, lesibien and gay people, even trans people and especially children because of this take

[@jorgemachado5317]

Wow. I'm sure there are lots of well reasearched and based polite arguments in this comment section

[@beejarny2097]

Is it even bad?

[@oxherder9061]

Just went through it rn and its actually rly nice

[@beejarny2097]

@@deafflylii1 flag nonce lol

[@NotADood]

Most of it is shallow fawning.

[@beejarny2097]

@@deafflylii1 ok Gareth

[@chophoque]

Thank you very much for this video, it is so incredibly helpful and also warming to see how kind and humble Judith Butler is. I do have one question though: at some point, Butler mentions that there is a difference between understanding gender as a social construction on the one hand, and as a performance on the other hand. But they then let it go. Could anybody enlighten me on the difference, or mention a book they wrote which explains this difference? Thank you very much again!

[@unique_newyork]

'I think I can situated myself as part of its beginning' -understatement much?

[@klarag.1010]

I'm so incredibly happy I found this interview! My bachelor thesis will be about feminist theory and gender theory. I started reading about Judith and her work, but seeing her on video and hearing her voice somehow makes her work more approachable to me. And having a clearer picture of what an author is like also helps in interpreting her writing

[@richardott3706]

That's a lot of preparation and reading just to become a taxi driver!

[@kevtwine7445]

What an absolute waste of time that dissertation will be 😂

[@sorchacartoons7062]

@@richardott3706 Somehow, the perception of third level education morphed from an institution of higher learning and the pursuit of knowledge into a promised job factory. But it isn’t a job factory. Whether or not you can get a job is irrelevant to the value of shared knowledge. Moreover, a lot of skills are transferable across fields. If you’ve spent 4 years training in presenting data, analysing information, writing reports, pitching ideas, thinking about problems in a creative and nonlinear way, - it therefore doesn’t matter whether you did a humanities class or a business class… you can get a job in any field with the right skills. It’s trendy to criticize university students for struggling to find high paying work or struggling to pay off their student loans, when it shouldn’t be the student’s fault the economy they’ve inherited is utterly pants.

[@richardott3706]

@@sorchacartoons7062 Well, and if you spent 3 or even 4 years regurgitating the tenets of a nonsensical pseudoscience and even went into massive debt just to do that, it shows that you are dumber than somebody who never went to university at all.

[@chupacabraman01]

These comments... the greatest modern scam is the argument that an education in humanities is wasteful. Klara, speaking as someone who did a humanities degree, your future is bright if you make it so. I'm now a user researcher, service designer and digital developer (self taught). These people will never appreciate what an education will equip you for.

[@yaiirable]

My favourite was at 8:49 where we just cut to Owen looking confused, nodding, then cutting away

[@johart9994]

I would love to hang out with Judith Butler - so interesting and inspiring

[@TheNadiabear]

Yeah, jo hart, so would I.

[@johart9994]

@@TheNadiabear Judith is my go to 'dream' cup of coffee and a chat. Adorable .

[@duncefunce1513]

Ha ha, 'sex assignment'. Right.

[@augustbyrd5042]

thank you SO MUCH for this interview - it’s really enriched my understanding of Butler’s theories and perspectives

[@cervenypes123]

She seems to organize her books by color to some degree. Telling

[@yogi2436]

But gender may not be the essential existential component of life that Judith insists it is. Gender could also be seen as much like fashion, which is a surface appearance aimed at getting attention and audience approval of sorts. It is dependent on creating a spectacle. Spectacles often are designed to make up for an inner lack, and ideology is always in need of spectacle. Spectacle is on the outside and it is associated with getting power , but the power comes at the expense of hard-won inner growth, because inner growth can never be the consequence of power, ideology, fashion or the adulation of audiences.

[@lavendercommie]

Gender is offen like fashion to those who are allowed to express it in accordance to their sense of self

[@flyingsquirrel965]

The great Judith Butler is non binary? Life is awesome.

[@AmaranthOriginal]

No spoilers! (Kidding)

[@Grappapappa]

Yes it is! This is so great!

[@Loukbots]

They seem like such a lovely person!

[@Hattipillar]

loved this!! thank you for your work!

[@ashcollins9778]

Judith Butler is a highly intelligent human that accepts You For You. Thanks for this Owen I thoroughly enjoyed listening to You & Judith, I wish More People where As understanding,open & accepting in this World.

[@Akita538]

She is a highly intelligent human that accepts You For You as long as you slavishly accept whatever she says. Otherwise, she will try to pathologise you and _everything_ you say, and even your right to an opinion. Her treatment of J.K. Rowling in this video is shameful.

[@rocksparadox]

Butler is a highly deceptive human who provides copium for those who can't accept the biological FACT that sex is determined by XY or XX chromosomes and can't be changed, no matter how much gender drivel and postmodern, cultural relativistic claptrap ''they '' produce.

[@margaret000]

Gender Trouble still being taught in my masters classes and here Judith Butler has long since moved on. So wonderful to hear their updated thoughts and reflections!

[@jayamin1004]

It is still taught on the Alevel course I teach... the auther says its 30 years out of date ha

[@NoiseGrinder]

@@jayamin1004 What a waste of time and money these courses are !

[@honeychurchgipsy6]

@@NoiseGrinder - what courses would that be?? All courses that use Butler's work, because neither of these commenters mentioned the type of course? I discovered Butler's work as Master's student on an English Literature course. I came via the idea of language as performative - which was the work of J.L. Austen.

[@aalegr]

Well, you know... philosophy is a long dialogue, so if you want to jump in or understand what is being discussed you have to know what have been said before.

[@margaret000]

@@aalegr thank you for explaining academia to me. I have to apologize. I mistakenly assumed it was clear from my interest and surprise at what is being discussed by Judith Butler in this video that my issue is not with learning what has come before, but with the fact that my syllabi have always stopped at Gender Trouble and made it seem like this 30 year old work was the most current and up to date material.

[@jinglejangle100]

A very deepening conversation for me. There is still so much more to learn and so many old assumptions to drop.

[@Grappapappa]

Name three.

[@jinglejangle100]

@@Grappapappa Name any three beliefs and I'll show you three assumptions.

[@Love_I_am]

I appreciate the humility and willingness to change that Judith displays in this conversation.

[@georgemioch8981]

What humility? 🤣🤣🤣

[@MajoraWaffle]

​@@georgemioch8981 most intelligent TERF

[@davesmith7812]

Regarding trans rights, the issue isn't what someone like JK Rowling has or hasn't said - she may be right or wrong, I've read the opinions of respected biologists (eg Jerry Coyne) who says she's factually correct, and others who say she's mistaken. The issue is in how one responds to such arguments. There is an authoritarian glee with which some people put down those they accuse of being discriminatory. Gone is any nuanced argument. Instead, in the case of Rowling, it's "ban her books" etc...this isn't a sensible or intelligent way for adults to behave

[@ignacia3628]

We are in a time where we can't disagree or give opinions that don't match what a certain group believes, especially when those opinions come from a woman's mouth

[@Kavafy]

I don't think that's the problem with Rowling though - she's being doing this for years and had her factual mistakes pointed out to her a million times. After a certain point, it goes beyond "just making arguments" and it becomes using a privileged position as a celebrity to endorse oppression. Jerry Coyne isn't an expert on trans or gender issues in general so I don't think that using him works either.

[@NotADood]

@@Kavafy Calling her a terf, repeating "trans women are women," and telling her to sick girl ducks doesn't amount to having factual mistakes pointed out to her. That's all TRAs ever do.

[@lechenaultia5863]

How fascinating.....my factual comment was deleted almost immediately. This is not a discussion- it's just another echo chamber

[@georgemioch8981]

They stand no chance in discussion…

[@rachelusher5390]

mine was taken down too

[@nickthepostpunk5766]

I agree.

[@reubennb2859]

Battle of the aesthetic bookshelves. Great conversation though, enjoying these talks with prominent progressive thinkers. We need to get the British left as rhetorically proficient as possible

[@sgu00dir]

Great point. And on the bookshelves I'm glad it's not just me noticing that. One of the benefits of COVID is getting a window into scholars and politicians book shelves! The academics and real thinkers always have dishevelled the most dishevelled bookshelves

[@nolslifegren]

@@declanmurray Owens not a politician hes not elected by anyone ...

[@natasha-em1qo]

Rhetorically proficient 😂

[@finolacat8355]

Yes, aesthetic. Perfect adjective.

[@TheNobleSufferer]

That Library (w)holds the Mandate of Heaven :D *sniff*

[@crimsonsmirk]

The first time I heard the interviewer here I was very worried he would continue to be very KZbiny in his demeanour (exaggerated delivery, constant, sort of "shouty" gestures) but fortunately he isn't as the interview progresses where he displays excellent research and interviewing skills. This mostly as a comment to those who might otherwise be discouraged from watching on.

[@garyjones1737]

Great comment, great abs

[@sandra81962]

what a great discussion, thank you

[@igorknown8608]

Really great. she's absolutely charming. Thank u!

[@exhater7820]

@@leafleafleaf9272 how . Could you elaborate?

[@slartibartfast2977]

Love you. Great interview.

[@raspberryberet4544]

this suicide trope is a bit old, and manipulative.

[@TheCommono]

"old", "manipulative" Arguments don't die of old age. And whom is she manipulating and towards what??

[@laralarroyed6373]

Listening to this great person in quarantine is such a privilege ❤️

[@gcreanful]

omg Judith Butler is an OG , i'm well jel

[@AussieWineGal]

Storms DeLaverie instigated the Stonewall riots. Storm was a proud butch Lesbian.

[@ginaritchie451]

that is true. and marsha p johnson , a trans woman of color was right behind her. cisgender white gay men will tell you they began it all.

[@derekspitz9225]

@@ginaritchie451 Why are you so angry with white men? Daddy issues?

[@sandytimewell]

@@ginaritchie451 Marsha self-identified as a gay man and a drag qeen, not trans. Marsha also said in interviews that they (the drag queens) were not there at the start of the riot and turned up a couple of hours later. This history is all on record, stop rewriting history. Butch lesbians started the stonewall riots.

[@robbiespence6504]

Yes just one of the many history lies in this interview.

[@elizabethveldonstuff]

i'm with her on the idea of not minding the gender you're given in interactions with others. what this tells us about how gender is constructed, or rather what it points towards is fascinating and to experience that day to day is (i think) a gift.

[@elizabethveldonstuff]

@@deafflylii1 what?

[@elizabethveldonstuff]

@@deafflylii1 what are you on about?

[@cfor8129]

@@deafflylii1 ah, since you don't personally relate, it must be imaginary?

[@elizabethveldonstuff]

@@deafflylii1 i don't even know what you're on about, mate.

[@cannibalholocaust3015]

@@deafflylii1 YOU didn’t fight any wars and they weren’t for “freedom” but merely the power class exchanging blows in order to accrue more wealth and power. Yes Virginia that includes WW2.

[@josephmiller954]

Can you interview Kathleen Stock please Owen.

[@Grappapappa]

I second this!! Preferrably with Butler on the other side.

[@daisybe3736]

@@Grappapappa As a trans person I can only vouch for that. 🙏

[@Grappapappa]

@@daisybe3736 As a Scandinavian heterosexual male, I am starting to feel that I shouldn't really say anything on these sorts of issues.

[@ajaybbohr]

Two fundamental assumptions are being made, neither of which is true. First, it is not transphobic to believe that women's spaces are important and need protecting, that womens sports matter and that young lesbians are LESS likely to commit suicide if allowed to go through puberty rather than being given puberty blockers and pushed down a medical and surgical path etc. Second, that those who share these beliefs are 'right wing' or hold right wing views. The majority of feminists who believe that a woman is an adult human female which is a factual and biological reality, hold very left wing views on other subjects.

[@fe5018]

You're really shouting into the void there, mate. Pesky facts like that aren't welcome in these quarters.

[@doobieddooo]

Thanks for saying this

[@multitopic1908]

Physical sex is not something 'assigned at birth.' it's something we're conceived with when a sperm cell unites with an egg cell. It is this biological reality which adds to the torment of those whose minds don't match up with it. 'Assigned at birth' is a highly misleading term that fails to get at the heart of the Trans dilemma.

[@iggsolo]

You should also get Wendy Brown on the show. Her books on neoliberalism are AMAZING.

[@Grappapappa]

Has she ever responded to Nussbaum's critique of her views?

[@pablolovesgaga]

I love you, Judith. You've inspired me endlessly!

[@olwen1915]

Thank you for this discussion. Judith is a vision of grace, intelligence and wisdom. Wouldn't it be great for JK to sit down with Judith for a respectful and calm debate, now that would be interesting

[@thegaytay4327]

A respectful and calm debate with JK Trolling? I don't think that's possible

[@MyClau1971]

I’m deeply fascinated by Judith Butler. I don’t question very much if I totally agree with her, but I apreciate the depth of her thoughts and culture. And what i love of her is the courage, politically, in many fields and her total humbleness.

[@pruksapanbantawtook5671]

I love the video, and Judith Butler is so cool and KIND! Thanks, Owen, for doing this ;)

[@puderzuckerable]

I love Judith Butler!! What an amazing interview! Thanks for this, Owen!

[@thomasobrien8850]

another nut-job

[@fredrikw1447]

What do you mean by ”assigned at birth”?

[@johnsmith7140]

Lol

[@SkyeID]

assigned at birth is when a doctor announces "it's a boy" or "it's a girl" as soon as a baby is born...and before if the parent got an ultrasound.

[@onetwo19]

A feminist who does not believe a man can be a woman is not anti trans! "Are they against migration too?" So you are insinuating that these feminists are like far right haters.?

[@growingmelancholy8374]

I liked the part where you asked Butler about her May, 11, 2018 letter to NYU.

[@MyKeyMoonShine]

The part where they talk about some people not being bothered by gender and just going along with it really resonates with me. It also initially lead me to be a little bit transphobic in a transmedicalist way before eventually realising I was wrong and also realising I'm non binary myself. I'm nb in a way where gender doesn't matter to me and a lot of it doesn't fit with the way I view myself.

[@cirimpufka]

The majority of people isn't bothered by gender, believe it or not. We usually see ourselves as "people".

[@MyKeyMoonShine]

@@cirimpufka did the majority of people grow up with body dysphoria? I didn't think that worth mentioning but seeing as you came here to invalidate me I also have that. Am I trans enough for you now? Do I meet your standards for my own identity and view of myself?

[@honeychurchgipsy6]

@@MyKeyMoonShine - I wonder if you have misunderstood pacufka's comment? I didn't see it as an attempt to invalidate you - but I might be wrong of course. I really have trouble with the non binary thing - I don't really understand it and I really want to. If it means simply not buying in to what society thinks we should be and do if we are a woman or a man - then I am non binary. If it means that we don't see everyone as belonging to a discreet group that is either 100% male, or 100% female - then again - that's me. So, is it simply a stance, a position, that says "I disagree that we all identify with what society sees as male or female."? If so, then, hopefully, it will not be required in the future (I am an optimist - lol!!) What I suspect/hope is that, in the future we will all just identify by our name - we won't feel the need to say "I am a woman" or "I am a trans woman" - people can get to know us if they want that information. This would mean that the concept of non binary and trans gender would die out of course. We would still have trans sexual people but that's totally different.

[@cfor8129]

@@honeychurchgipsy6 nonbinary means a person doesn't identify as completely a man or a woman. Whatever my personal opinions on gender, I can't accept a stance that undermines other people's experiences. But for me personally- I am much happier when I do not try to slot myself into the binary. So nonbinary is a personal thing, but the idea you're referring to is something I've seen before, maybe called gender abolition?

[@honeychurchgipsy6]

@@cfor8129 - thanks for that - I've been thinking a lot about how I think of myself lately - and how I 'know' whether I am a woman or a man ( I can know that I am biologically female of course by self examination - lol!!) Of course, when I grew up in the 60's and 70's men and women lead very separated/demarcated lives - my dad worked away, my mum was at home looking after us. I automatically identified with my mum - i.e. as a woman but since I only had what society told me about being a girl I had to go with that. I never had much in the way of maternal feelings (despite my mum being the opposite and loving babies). I love animals but babies - yuk!! Whereas my sister longed for a baby and helped with any babies that came to stay. If this means that I am not typically feminine (I also hate nail varnish, high heels, and spending time gossiping about fashion and hair styles) then what does that mean? ALL of those things (apart perhaps from the maternal thing) are created by society - so I have come full circle with not knowing why we need to have a label for not fitting with what is only a superficial/created thing? I see a future where no one gives a flying F what gender we are (in fact gender wont be a thing because it will be as normal for a biological male to wear make up as it is for a biological female to hate it), and no one will care who you love - we will drop gender pronouns all together and simply answer the question 'Who are you?' with the words 'I'm Gillian/Tom/Alex/ etc'

[@chriscross1979uk]

Thank you for sharing this Owen. As a trans woman I was interested to listen to this interview. Judith Butler is a very intelligent and thoughtful person and I like the way you allow her to speak in a detailed way. Lots of interesting topics covered and ideas shared !

[@marksanchez7323]

What makes someone a woman?

[@RedClayFH]

Thats because the weasel was terrified of her and saying the 'wrong thing' . Funnily enough JB seemed cool enough about people not using 'correct' descriptions of her, on the other hand poor Owen wouldnt be as magnanamous. He was super cringe here.

[@nolslifegren]

@@marksanchez7323 Vagine

[@Grace-xb7nm]

@@marksanchez7323 Lipstick, eyeshadow and long hair, no?

[@SansaCarioca]

@@Grace-xb7nm Stiletto heels!

[@davidap257]

She's never had kids.

[@georgemioch8981]

Luckily…

[@stellanderitu7394]

This is so insightful and positively thought-provoking. Thank you.

[@spencerwinellcomposer]

Fabulous interviews coming from this channel. I’d love to see Angela Davis or Michelle Alexander on here as well!

[@OwenJonesTalks]

Love the Angela Davis suggestion, will get on this

[@NoiseGrinder]

@@OwenJonesTalks Julie Bindel would be more challenging and much more interesting. Are you afraid of her?

[@artfulthrifter3649]

@@NoiseGrinder or anything isn’t an echo chamber

[@katewilliamson4464]

@@NoiseGrinder Julie Bindel would be great or Kathleen Stock. But yeah probably too scary for Owen. bell hooks might be less scary for him.

[@felipesantell007]

She contradicts herself aaaaaaaall the time.

[@rachelusher5390]

doesn't she. I find it so strange that people just take her trade make and cry brilliant. I find the woman profoundly stupid

[@agstinacueva1673]

Point the contradictions out please. I'd love to read you. I'm sure you have a degree to back your analysis. 👍

[@edjervis1672]

LOVED this piece!!! Really helped shape my thinking and helped me to better position & frame my responses on transphobia - Well done!

[@caltriton6904]

Lmao. Riiigght.

[@exhater7820]

@@caltriton6904 you know you sound like a bitter bully, right?

[@sagecugino1813]

this is really great! wish I could like it multiple times.

[@abigailelliot5503]

That was brilliant, I could listen to Judith Butler talk for hours on end, so much long thought out wisdom there to learn from. I appreciate the way in which she delivers her words with a great sense of humility, and with an understanding of and comfortability with the fact that these topics are complex and that her own views and those of wider society will and should change over time. Unfortunately, many people are only willing/able to listen to straight forward answers and simple ideas. I wonder how can we translate discussions such as this into a form that is palatable to a wider audience?

[@markcopeland5090]

I would hope we can all agree that it's not transphobia to suggest that biological sex should be taken into account for specific domains of society, that all people should be treated with compassion and their personal identity respected. The temperature on this debate needs to cool, and people with different perspectives need to listen to each other to rationally discuss solutions to a complicated problem (for some areas of traditional societal organization). I really hope in time people can be more civil on this topic, and not suggest things like a biological dogma thats insensitive to gender dsyphoria, or on the flip side, suggest people are in some way contributing to suicide rates of vulnerable groups by asking questions/having an opinion.

[@blugreen99]

Aoto gynephilia rightd now.MAPS rights are human rights.

[@killhomophobes11]

omg where in this did they talk abt pedophilia? maps are absolutely disgusting and have no place in the lgbtqia+ movement. y'all transphobes are truly pathetic

[@sia2761]

hey owen, loved the interview! was an incredibly interesting discussion. i'm interested in including some of the points raised in an essay - would it be possible to get a transcript?

[@lucypherr]

don't know if this helps but in lieu of an actual transcript, youtube provides a transcript made from its automatically generated subtitles, under the three dot menu underneath the video

[@joannapinkiewicz6756]

Why isn't Butler critiquing domination in a culture which shapes gender behaviour? Why isn't she pointing out that domination shapes submissive and dominating behaviours which we describe as feminine and masculine, including clothing, which fetishises domination? Her focus on internalised gender identity, without the cause is not useful to feminism, it is useful to genderists and capitalism.

[@ignacia3628]

Exactly what I was thinking

[@FoamKittyGamer]

Because she's explaining the situation to people who are just finding this information out.

[@joannapinkiewicz6756]

@News Junkie I would think other issues are more pronounced and visible: sexualisation and commodification of women and male violence.

[@vdrake6817]

butler has wrote about these things before. perhaps you should actually read some of their books. the reality of power structures and imbalances in patriarchal societies is something butler has been critiquing their entire career.

[@vdrake6817]

@News Junkie power imbalances along the lines of race, gender, class, etc. are fact. anyone can google social inequalities of health, wealth, etc. and the information is widely available. echo chamber or not, these facts are there and widely replicated in all of contemporary social science. again i have little idea what you are trying to say here as you keep repeating ad homonym attacks to butler.

[@FoundationMCR]

Fascinating and insightful interview. Thanks! X

[@RoseTheQueen420]

Yay I'm valid!! I love this women 💞

[@evan2173]

Your oppression is meaningless. Your "validity" is confirmed by reality, not some whack postmodernist neoliberal shill.

[@fe5018]

@@evan2173, they seem to prefer the postmodernist neoliberal shill though 🤷‍♂️

[@sparagmos4748]

I hope you are joking as you shouldn't need validation from an academic that you presumably have never met.

[@leafleafleaf9272]

Judith Butler perpetuates the current, outdated method of gd treatment.

[@sophiepooks2174]

@@fe5018 Yep they won't be happy until the folkies are singing; 'Where have all the transes gone, long time passing, long time ago' When will they ever learn? ☮❤

[@Dayglodaydreams]

She should do a lecture on Nelson Goodman and his idea of Social Construction.

[@Kaiissad]

It’s definitely not a feeling in terms of trans people gender . Beautiful interview

[@umwha]

What is it then ? Is there a biological or physiological basis?

[@pkupferschmidt]

@Kaiissad right from the first of the video. Not a feeling, but a deep existential problem that can END YOU if not faced - either your life, your relationships, your physical safety, or all of these together.

[@umwha]

@@pkupferschmidt What does an existential problem mean in this context? On what level is this problem?

[@chupacabraman01]

@@umwha man stop trolling. You asked 'on what level is an existential problem?' it's at an existential level... That's all you need.

[@umwha]

@@chupacabraman01 I do not think it is. How hyperbolic to say that gender is an existential problem.

[@minmax5]

12:20 what a salient observation. I've encountered this not only in formal literature, but also within interactions with with trans exclusionary feminists in my daily life. There is often a lot of assuming about my beliefs and not very much asking... This is also exhibited by transphobes outside of feminist circles, and I would even say is a frequent aspect of beliefs structured on bigotry.

[@serpentines6356]

Have absolutely no idea how you define "transphobe." If you think it's okay to ruin children's innocence with this gender bender garbage, allow men in women's sports, bathrooms, dressing rooms, shelters, prisons, etc., then yeah, I am not going to really care much how you define that, or what you think. You are already showing me. So, you are right, I don't care what "trans people" think when they are pushing insane thinking, and behaviour on children, women, and expect us to just go along with it, or "understand" it. If you won't respect my boundaries, or children's boundaries then don't expect it back from those of us standing up to the trans cult.

[@inflikktion]

@@serpentines6356 wOn'T sOmEbOdY tHiNk Of ThE cHiLdReN !?

[@BloodyVulnona]

@@serpentines6356 your comment is literally the perfect example of that

[@BloodyVulnona]

@UCvQYhz95hUD41eeiUts0H8Q Once again, perfect example

[@serpentines6356]

@@BloodyVulnona So, according to you "transphobe" is someone unwilling to be a doormat for disrespect, and abuse brought on by extremist "affirmation" "trans" ideology, drag pedagogy, etc? Do *you* go on listening to someone who REFUSES to respect you, your hard work, your boundaries? I guess you will if you don't care about being disrespected, or abused. Are the "trans" people I agree with "transphobic"? Not, hardly.

[@roryokane5907]

Incredible interview. Butler literally got name dropped in my argument with a transphobe an hour before this popped up in my feed.

[@serpentines6356]

Wow. Not impressed! That's what shallow people do. Name drop. Define "transphobe."

[@DippingAtoe]

Wonderful interview, well done Owen for getting this! Though i think we could tell you were a bit nervous (no wonder, who would'nt), some more banter and introductions would have been great so we could have seem more of who Judith Butler really is, it felt very scripted unlike some of your other episodes. I would have LOVED to hear about some of the ways her mind has changed from earlier works- next time maby

[@leddywood]

Gender performativity creates stereo types that are instructive to many aspects of trans identity. It's an interesting internal conflict within the discussion. As a non binary person myself I sometimes wonder where the aspects of how my own ideas of femininity are arrived at. Contrapoints has some great takes on this too.

[@NotADood]

Sex based stereotypes is just sexism.

[@serpentines6356]

@@NotADood No, not always.

[@serpentines6356]

Just be yourself. Most of this gender bender stuff is garbage begging for attention.

[@alileeisonethebridge]

Only if I could have an intimate one hour chat with Butler lol

[@Grappapappa]

Why? Do you have troubles falling asleep?

[@sophiepooks2174]

@@Grappapappa Seethe harder. Please show us all where on the dolly the transes hurt you.

[@Grappapappa]

@@sophiepooks2174 Häh?

[@ruthy6000]

This is the best crossover since The Avengers

[@antony558]

This was fascinating and really educational! Thank you 💛

[@mrwevans]

Thank you for posting this. Did Rowling argue that all men are rapists? I read Rowling's essay but don't remember that bit.

[@cfor8129]

The ideas of the people she agrees with sort of assume that a specific biology makes someone dangerous in that way.

[@mrwevans]

@@cfor8129 If Butler argues the "not all men" point instead, then does that mean Butler agrees with right wingers or incels who say similar things? That's a worrying thought.

[@cfor8129]

@@mrwevans lmao no, there's a big difference between not accepting biological determinism and failing to acknowledge the violence men enact

[@cfor8129]

@@mrwevans an equally big part of the far right would say "boys will be boys" and "men can't help having urges"

[@NoiseGrinder]

@@cfor8129 Straw man argument

[@kirstyguard6023]

Such a joy to hear such wisdom. Thanks

[@Cool2BTrans]

Wow! What a brilliant and hugely important interview. Thank you so much Owen and Judith.

[@Oxenstierna69]

Thanks so much for this Owen and Judith: truly enlightening interview!

[@wendyharris9346]

thank you owen jones! i'm feeling the importance of joining together before the next usa election...... people seem way too complacent. & i feel the need to stand up for those many minorities who are so vulnerable in this american culture.

[@micallen8796]

This is a conversation that is really worth having , as a White Working Class Man, I feel enlightened. Thanks :) x

[@micallen8796]

@@maxambrose8839 Sound great, Anything in Mind ?

[@kas6223]

Means so much to me (as a young trans person) to see Judith interviewed properly!! Whenever they get profiled by anyone else the questions primarily consist of "isn't it bad that billionaires get criticised on twitter". Thank you Owen, and keep it going!

[@cgpcgp3239]

Listening to Judith Butler is an all you can eat word salad buffet.

[@VorosMedve]

JB’s work is pretty tough on the old brain cells! Thanks for sharing!

[@cannibalholocaust3015]

If you can’t explain something in simple terms then you don’t understand it. Not sure if that was Einstein or Feynman but nails the general problem with these vaunted “scholars” who have an entire ecosystem of language and ideology you need to learn in order to even pretend to grasp what they’re saying. All so they can feel smug over the lower class plebs who “just don’t get it”.