Were Trans People “Born This Way”? | Downstream

[@Adamb87]

I am always puzzled why Trans people are consistently left out of Trans based discussions in mainstream media , I’d love to listen from Trans people more to learn myself

[@BeccaAl]

@Trans Liberation thanks for you comments, knowledge and sharing your experience. IMO It should be unthinkable than a medical professional would refuse to treat you because you are a person who is transgender, it’s terrible you’ve been put through that and terrible people who are trans have to wait so long and get so little help. Not surprising where it leads but desperately sad.

[@imemineph]

I would be way more puzzled if main stream media did include trans people in their content, that would be so out of character for them! But we live in hope that one day Novara media and the other fantastic new media push legacy media into obscurity.

[@imemineph]

@Darth Pepe your right, supporting trans rights isn't a vote winner but it is the right thing to do, I want a government that will represent the working class as much as anyone but I don't believe that we should throw a marginalised group under the bus to do it, If we work to better the lives of one community, by pushing the hardship onto another group, we have not tackled oppression we have just moved it!

[@andrewrobinson2565]

Get yourself a trans child. I was a lot less puzzled after my daughter came out at 28.

[@andrewrobinson2565]

@@xx-my5vh Troll. Off to Scandinavia with your "ideology". 🤔🤣

[@markharrisllb]

I have three trans gender friends and one I feel particularly honoured to have in my life. She is my age, 61, and has walked a walk many would fear to tread, yet she is one of the most open, kindest, articulate people you could meet. I have no idea to what degree her dysphoria has impacted on her personality, but today I love her as a friend for the person she is without any consideration to her gender. As a cis straight male my understanding of these issues is woefully scant. This is despite the fact that I have numerous clients who are transgender, many of whom are more than happy to educate me. I know of many of the health issues, both mental and physical and I certainly have third hand knowledge of the hate crime trans people endure. As a law grad I also have a legal understanding of the difference between sex and gender. However, though I will never be able to understand emotions I’ve not experienced I do respect them. This interview has certainly added to my understandings and personally I’m very grateful.

[@Envision_]

Your argument is that only transgender people (whatever that means) can be knowledgeable about all things related to being transgender. It would be the same as saying that only women can be gynaecologists. Then it wouldn't make sense to have clients at all would it? Besides, how does the idea of a man being a woman because he feels like a woman makes sense to you?

[@kil2250]

@@Envision_ literally no where in their statement did they make such an assertion. They made a few "i" statements, about their particular particular knowledge lacked and how some Tran People in their orbit have helped fleshed out those blind spots for them. Your blind need to debate the very existence of Trans People has made you cynical and bitter to even a persons passive anecdote about their personal experience.

[@kil2250]

​@@FreeTheDonbas Good ole cheery picking, a staple fallacy for those logically wanting. Perchance a whiff of appeal to authority? Quite the hearty sample of Ad Hominem. And on and on...

[@Envision_]

@@kil2250 I simply don't care about the personal experiences of so called transwomen and why should I? I only care about the policies that are being passed based on a nonsensical ideology. How can you be bigoted about the idea of a man who claims to be a woman because he 'feels' like a woman?

[@kil2250]

@@Envision_ Your continued need to deny even their very existence betrays your bigotry making it plain for all to see. Edit: also its telling how you have a hyper focus on only Trans Women.

[@WillowQuesnel]

Hi Michael, thanks for this helpful video. I am a transwoman and I strongly resonate with the biological position. I would never choose to be trans nor is it something I enjoy. I am neither proud of it nor embarrassed by it: it simply is a fact of my existence that I have to deal with. Gender dysphoria is horrible and its even worse when you don't have the money to do a complete medical transition. Honestly, I'd love to go to sleep and never wake up again...only I would never put my family and loved ones through that turmoil, so every day I struggle on...

[@spencerharmon4669]

I think the problem with "the biological position" is that there is no known genetic or other biological process which is a causal factor in being gay or being trans. The reason people deserve rights to live as their gender identity is because they deserve dignity, respect, and liberation, not because of some concept of biological reductionism. Even if such a causal factor could be found, I don't think it would be ethical to use it as a determinant of rights granted by the state (and let's face it, reactionaries would take such an opportunity to deprive trans people of rights). It's perfectly fine for people to hold the belief that their gender identity is intrinsic to their biology. In some ways, everything we do is, but this is not a good benchmark for legal matters of, e.g. access to appropriate health care or in identifying discrimination, et c..

[@ethelmini]

The most atypical categorisation I have to deal with is being left handed, but I suspect I'm older than you & have learned if you just bother about being yourself things have a habit of falling in to place. The one thing biology indisputably gives us is diversity, without it natural selection wouldn't be possible and all life would have gone extinct.

[@LuzdoSol00]

Growing up in a horrible heavenly religious country, being gay was no chance. Back then, I didn't know what to do soon as I took ownership of my life, things start to change. Now, 30 years later living in the UK, I noticed that the pain I felt back then ( suicide variations) and other issues were the stone to maturity in life today. Trans individuals have a complexity about them that is intriguing and amazingly clever. What I meant, you will be fine society will come to terms of acceptance channels like this and more reading will give us a firm future. I promise. 😍

[@ebflegg]

I felt sad to read this and I very much hope that you find a reason to live for yourself and not just for others. It maddens me that on the one hand, trans activism does not want to acknowledge the reality of gender dysphoria any more, and on the other, therapists are under so much pressure (soon to be criminalised?) not to provide any exploratory therapy. Most will not go anywhere near this area now, for fear of retribution. I think it must be hard to be in a milieu that is so celebratory of trans identity and which does not want to honour stories like yours. The truth is important. I’m roasted as a Terf if I speak up, but I’m not either part of that acronym in fact. I just don’t believe in gender ideology, which I think can harm trans people too. Solidarity with you!

[@terezabuchlova5013]

Hi Willow I just want to send love and support. I get the vibe from yr post that you are a strong person, a fighter, however weak you may sometimes feel because of the hand of cards life has dealt you. From what you say about your family and loved ones, you also have the admirable quality of thinking of others even when you are going thro a truly hard time yourself. I am wishing you a great new year with much respect. Take stock and gather resources where you can, I believe you will get what you need before too long. Wishing the best for you, happy new year and may the years get better and better

[@aniserose7349]

I bloody love being trans ⚧

[@aniserose7349]

@@xx-my5vh ew weird

[@drummingtildeath]

@@xx-my5vh I understand that some people have concerns about biological males being in women's changing rooms. But I can't help but wonder why sex is what matters when we know that ther will be gay men in the changing rooms with other men. Are you also bothered by the idea that your son could be being looked at by a gay man?

[@joannalink6171]

@@xx-my5vh Self-ID is about changing the gender marker on your birth certificate. It has nothing to do with changing rooms

[@abigailmurray5897]

@Nannabis Me three!

[@hayleyxyz]

@@xx-my5vh okay Jonny you're just a creep; consider sitting in your running car with the garage door closed. thanks

[@susannalarsson1525]

I'm only 10 minutes in but I take issue with two things: firstly, Michael is using the words 'sex' and 'gender' interchangeably which is confusing (although to be fair that is a problem with the English language). Secondly, Julia keeps pivoting to the fact that there are variations within sex classes as if that makes the classification itself irrelevant. That doesn't make sense to me - is she suggesting that we could only legitimately say there were two sexes if all women were identical to each other, and all men identical to all other men?

[@soniaess28]

Two white men telling women why men should have whatever they want. Cute.

[@samweeks2128]

White men rule the world.

[@patriciaszabo8015]

KZbin commenter also white man.

[@jennydean7571]

For those at the back: TRANS PEOPLE DO NOT DENY BIOLOGICAL REALITY !! We know perfectly well the difference between sex and gender.

[@YusuphYT]

Sexuality and gender is all that is verifiable as being biological*. Not the new made up sexes, lol.

[@MohammedAli-hl4mr]

@@YusuphYT the fact that you got it the wrong way around shows you know literally nothing about the subject

[@ScottishVagabond]

Biology is complex and it might well be argued that 'sex' is, in fact, an aggregate term for a number of characteristics that vary naturally in people presumed male or female from birth. Aside from external genitalia and externally obvious intersex characteristics, there are a number of internal and developmental variations involved also, there is also the fact that trans men and women frequently alter their sex characteristics, both external and endocrinal. Then there are aspects of chromosomal chimerism, to which there is some evidence of effecting the actual neurological structures of trans people. In the end, it's much of a muchness, trans people and intersex people need access to tailored medical care that resists being lumped into simple categories, and all the while Nonbinary people lack many services they could do with, due to lack of recognition and many trans women require the social services needed by *all* women (rape crisis, shelter situations, etc) because they *are* women and suffer from many of the social problems faced by women. The organisations providing these services are almost all universally supportive of transwomen and it is only reactionaries and conservatives (notably not the service providers themselves) who argue this is some sort of untoward situation. There is literally no point in making any distinction between trans and cis people, only the medical care they require (based on highly tailored individual factors ). actually matter, and that is an issue purely between healthcare professionals and their patients.

[@homegirl4155]

@@EscapeFromDaSystem I’m a woman and don’t agree with the statement though.

[@ForgotMyPasswd000]

@@xx-my5vh that implies that trans women are not women, that trans people are “other” which absolutely relies upon transphobic logic. The reasons I find are usually along the lines of the the trans sexual abuser arguments, which presumes trans people are only trans because of fetishism and wanting to gain access to vulnerable women which I don’t think I need to elaborate on why this is bigoted. The reason for these spaces existing is because women face unique issues that unisex institutions can’t account for, which by extension will be felt by trans women who have transitioned. There’s no reason why these institutions have to be gatekeeped other than transphobic logic.

[@andreia.salsinha]

Thank you Michael for approaching this subject on your channel. As a transwoman myself I feel like these topics should be heard more often as a way to spread actual knowledge about what being transgender is. And I felt a bit envious of Julia's 'hotseat' because I felt completely prepared to answer all the questions you were throwing at her, and I'm always happy to share the knowledge and actual trans experiences and issues (as I'm sure Julia does). One of the biggest issues with society's reluctance to accept trans people is that they've never actually met one, spoken to one frankly, or lived with one. We are 1% of the UK population (poorly documented) and we just want to get on with our lives as normally and uneventfully as possible. We do not have an "agenda", and we do not want to turn your children into transkids either (just like the gays didn't in the 80's and 90's), and it's a sad state of affairs to see history repeat itself with a "new" minority being used as a scapegoat for social outrage. Blame the jews, blame the blacks, blame the gays, blame the trans... It's repetitive, dull, assinine, and counter-productive.

[@haggissupper7779]

Hopefully NM will get you on the show because Julie wasn't able to answer any of the softball questions.

[@TalynStormcrow]

@@FreeTheDonbas utterly ignorant right wing nonsense. How would a group only with the one thing in common have an agenda? That's like saying ginger people have an agenda. You're a joke.

[@AndrewCorser]

@@TalynStormcrow Sorry...how was Knight Chime's comment right wing?

[@stephenthomas3085]

@@FreeTheDonbas ''trans cult.'' C'mon now, that's a bit heavy. The word cult is exceedingly loaded and hardly appropriate.

[@piershartley8676]

@@FreeTheDonbas Dude you could use exactly the same logic to erase gay people (whose population has almost doubled in ten years). How about we accept that people holding an identity which has considerable social stigma are more likely to express it if they don't immediately get demonised and feel some chance of acceptance and stop rehashing the same stupid tired arguments everytime a minority group wants some civil rights?

[@charlottemarceau8062]

Debating whether we are born this way is a tacit acceptance, as it is for gay people, that if it were a choice it would be a wrong choice. That we "can't help it". This is incredibly reductive and essentialist. We are worthy of love and respect whether you think its nature or nurture or both. No?

[@terezabuchlova5013]

Charlotte Marceau YES! On principle I totally agree. But I also remember how the "born like that" argument helped the gay rights movement gain traction in the 80s and 90s in the UK (sorry being 50 I'm too young to remember before that, lol) and now I scarcely hear anyone talk about "born like that" re gay people, cos there's no need to. Maybe it's useful as a means to an end (I don't wanna say that too loud, the reactionary right might hear). I say this as a cis and het person who cares deeply about everyone's rights. Love and have a great new year

[@terezabuchlova5013]

And tbc yes you are worthy of love and respect, gay or straight, trans or cis... YES! Love and respect

[@charlottemarceau8062]

Yeah sure it might help, I guess it's just how it feels to say its only "okay" if you "can't help it". I definitely used to hear the same kind of thing about race even (in the 90's..) "people can't help the colour of their skin" as if their colour was something shameful that needed sympathy from us "uncoloured" people, etc. I do see what you're saying and yep it probably has helped the movement, I guess I'm just of the mind that we should we should try to argue from a less conditional position? (Because even if we don't SAY "if It were a choice it would be a wrong choice" we are structurally agreeing with that by insisting that it's more like a birth defect or something. Imo xX

[@terezabuchlova5013]

@@charlottemarceau8062 now you say it I remember hearing that said about race too. I totally get what you are saying too. Have a great new year :)

[@charlottemarceau8062]

Same to you ! Xx

[@molseren]

I find the lefthanded example interesting, cause isnt "left handed liberation" (at least here in the west) an example of how biological determinism isnt necessarily the grounds for a minority being accepted? We still don't know why left handed people are "born that way" exactly, yet if anyone would question your left-handedness because you were unable to point to the specific part of your brain that made you so, that person would be looked at very weirdly. If you're looking at it poststructurally, it would seme that lefthandedness became normalized cause we decided that it was a normal thing to be, the same seems to have happened with gay people, we still haven't found the "gay gene", but people accept that being gay is ok anyhow. I guess there is also power in "born this way" narratives outside of whether we actually know why people are born that way or not, but point is, I don't think science in of itself is liberatory, minority groups historically go for the "born this way" narratives until they're accepted, at which point they become unnecessary.

[@spencerharmon4669]

I agree with this. The "born this way" argument has a historical significance, but it's not that useful as the ideological underpinning of why we extend rights to people. The more useful foundation is liberation per se. People ought to be free to have sex with whomever they want or live their lives as the gender they want, whether it's reducible to genetics or not.

[@johnduddy2359]

Theres relatively strong evidence that paedophiles are born paedophiles (statistical links to certain physical characteristics which are determined early in gestation). This is an example of a behavior that may well be natural but we dont want to allow. We make a judgement on a behavior based on its impact on society not on its causes.

[@alkhemiegypt]

Interestingly, during certain periods of history, being left-handed was seen as deviant. Even the Latin name for "left" is from the same root as "sinister". Until the 50s/60s, children were forced to be right-handed, whether or not it was natural for them. This resulted in children having a stutter. Societies will often demonise the minority or "the other" as a way of controlling cultural norms.

[@alpacacomentadora413]

@@johnduddy2359 a liberal society evetually will tolerate everything

[@mididoctors]

Trans rights

[@TheCam920]

Based 🏳️‍⚧️

[@glenntilson6509]

@@TheCam920 ? Not sure what you mean by the term.

[@Retog]

@@glenntilson6509 supporting trans rights is based 🏳️‍⚧️

[@haggissupper7779]

Could you list the rights that "cis" people have that trans people are denied please?

[@glenntilson6509]

@@Retog, yeah, can you explain "based"? I'm old.

[@alieninthecaribbean]

What gets ignored in many of these conversations around gender is that the ONLY perspective on it being looked at is the Post-Industrial, Judeo-Christian, European one. That perspective is one of a gender binary enforced on children based on the very rudimentary observation of what is between their legs at birth. An appendage or lack thereof is treated in this overly deterministic way. On the basis of that superficial observation, their ENTIRE personality, life-purpose, preferences, are assumed and they are shoe-horned to wear certain clothes, colors, expected to behave a certain way, like certain things etc. even before they can express their organic, self-determined personality. I believe many children are TRAUMATIZED by this experience deeply because you CANNOT assume just from outer genitalia that a person will be assertive or nurturing or prefer Math or be more emotional or be an analytical thinker, or like blue or pink or like sports etc. I do not think it is a coincidence that women on the autism spectrum have a very high chance of identifying as trans or non-binary because they cannot fit the "feminine trope" FORCED on them since birth to be demure, ladylike, effusive etc. Of course many of them will figure, well then, if society is telling me THIS NARROW SET OF QUALITIES defines "Woman", I clearly must not be a woman because all I have is the hardware not the software. Other cultures do not have a gender binary. Other cultures consider the SOFTWARE as important or more important than the hardware. They have a gender triune or quad or even up to FIVE different gender categories. In Ifa culture in West Africa, pre-colonial times they did not even have a concept of gender-based words before learning colonial languages of English, French, Portugese, Dutch, German etc. What we call gender was seen as an energy. Someone with a penis could have masculine and feminine energies simultaneously. A person with a vagina could be masculine. Roles in society that were not directly biological were not seen as the domain of one biological sex. Women could lead, if they had the leadership qualities inherent in them. There were female "husbands" and boy "wives". So no such thing as "gender identity crisis" existed. People had self-actualization not limited by what was between their legs. In indigenous Mexican culture they have a 3rd Gender, same in India. These and many other cultures MADE SPACE for the diversity and many combinations things can manifest in a human being. So there was also no need for a Muxe to try to take over a space or role or category designated for women because Muxes has their own sacred and valid space of value to the whole community. The main problem for the Western, gender binary culture is when there are only TWO gender roles it means EVERYONE has to force-fit themselves into them. Clearly, the binary system is not sufficient to accommodate everyone, especially when you try to apply it to certain things where the physical DOES MATTER. The huge mistake the West made is thinking that just because the reproductive process is binary it means human personalities, preferences, life goals, professions, etc. also just fit neatly into two categories and all humans with penises are identical and all humans with vaginas are identical and those with indeterminate genitalia have to also just force-fit themselves into either/or as well.

[@andrewgreen5574]

How we structure and frame our understanding of biology is a social construct, not the biological structure itself. These "classifications" are used for understanding the world we live in, but also are funneled through individual and ideological biases. So in short, as our understanding of biology becomes far more complex, it's understandable that the boxes previously used to house classifications become harder to confine and need to be reassessed. While there may be a distinction between biology and social constructs, social constructs still influence how we understand the material world.

[@spencerharmon4669]

@@globalist1990 you're confusing this counterargument with the central argument. The central point is trans people deserve to be treated with dignity and respect, as their gender identity. One flavor of reactionary responses to trans people simply existing (other than the violence and murders, but it's important to remember the violence and murders so I'm say it now: trans people get murdered a lot) is to insist that this is just science fact. It turns out, no, the science is actually more interesting than "two sexes." 1 person in 50 not fitting that mold is... What's 7 billion divided by 50? There are a lot of fucking people who don't fit in these boxes. No one is making the argument you're claiming they're making. What's happening is that your ilk are aggressively misunderstanding science and using this stupidity as a cudgel to do more violence against trans people. Who, can I please remind you, face a fucking lot of violence as it is.

[@andrewgreen5574]

@@globalist1990 even if 98% of people fall within a binary, which really it's far more complex than this, since sex is bimodal (on a spectrum), it still functionally leaves out 2% of the global population. We are talking about 78 million people here. Realistically, it's far more than this, and many people don't even know they are intersexxed. This doesn't even exist "within a vacuum"; our evolutionary history shows we evolved from creatures that likely could change genders, both fish and amphibians can change sex, and single celled organisms that would have produced a-sexually. So it would make sense that as we evolve into more complex creatures our coding and biology would be more complex and far less absolute. Likewise, environment, hormone production, and genetic coding determines phenotypic expression. Hence, it's believed that prenatal exposure to testosterone or estrogen cause morphologies within the brain causing gender dysphoria. If a woman or man cannot have children and are sterile, are they still a woman or a man? If a woman or a man never reproduces, how do we know they are a woman or a man? It seems very reductionist to assume that reproduction is the only identifiers to what is or is not a man or a woman. Infact, there are cases to where a genetic male with XY chromosomes, presents as female and has biologically female parts and can still give birth. Are they a man or a woman? How do you decide; genetic coding, genitalia, or self identification? Also, we've developed moral and ethical systems around concerns of consent, so no "microblading" 3 y/o's. Microblading is the word you were looking for. While gender fluidity is a thing, doesn't apply to most people, lol. What you suggest would be more akin to me saying "trans people exist, so all people are trans". It doesn't follow, lol.

[@ivancampoo]

Good interview! I am a biologist, though I don't really study genetics, development etc. While I'm wary of attempts to find some sort of genetic, causal basis for gender identity, I think there is one thing in particular that our modern understanding of biology can teach us. Despite human attempts to classify the natural world (particularly European scientists from the about the 17th century onwards), nature really does not 'do' rigid classifications. Most of the things we have categorized and named (plants, animals, cell types, proteins, genes) we now understand to be far more varied, complicated and poorly classified than previously thought. Its foolish and nearsighted to imagine that evolution produces some sort of perfect end-product. Rather its a highly dynamic process with twists and turns and redundancies and varieties. With this in mind its harder to take seriously anyone that wants to rigidly define any aspect of human biology or psychology.

[@akpanekpo6025]

I know nothing about the natural sciences but the little I've learned matches your analysis perfectly.

[@AreMullets4AustraliansOnly]

Anyone who understands the scientific process knows that there's no such thing as rigid definitions or absolute truth in science. Science is simply the closest approximation we have, and will constantly evolve as new knowledge is garnered.

[@Ruru12211]

You've explained really well a concept that I've repeatedly found it extremely difficult to get across to people who aren't well-versed in biology, and poor understanding of which causes all sorts of misunderstandings and untruths to be perpetuated.

[@ivancampoo]

@@thedualtransition6070 Sure, humans have always named and classified things. This process was just accelerated and systematized in Europe with Linneaus and the boys. Thats why I said 'particularly in Europe' and not 'exclusively in Europe'.

[@ivancampoo]

@@thedualtransition6070 I completely agree that science is our best approximation of physical reality. I wasn't trying to argue that the natural world is unknowable or anything. I wasn't really even trying to criticize our tendency to categorize things, it can be incredibly useful and its basically essential for any sort of systematic study of natural processes. We just need to be aware of the limitations of our categories. Evolution does not generate tidy end products.

[@o0oBeckyWilliamso0o]

Lovely to hear Julia put some perspective on trans issues.

[@guff9567]

Your conversation is so spoilt and elitist. It's like you just don't know what's going on in this world.

[@guff9567]

If Julia wants to be treated as a woman, she should go to the hairdresser

[@o0oBeckyWilliamso0o]

@@guff9567 It was a statement saying it was good to hear Julia's perspective. How is this "so spoilt and elitist". How does saying it's nice to hear Julia's thoughts relate to "what's going on in this world"? You're not making any sense. It's almost like you have this whole schema going on which is triggered by just saying, "it's nice to hear someone's opinion."

[@o0oBeckyWilliamso0o]

@@guff9567 You're really very judgemental, aren't you?

[@guff9567]

@@o0oBeckyWilliamso0o With hair like that, how can she, or anything she says be considered part of the human race. First, if you are truly female, GO TO THE HAIRDRESSER. Nobody is going to take your existence seriously with that mess on top of your head. For real.

[@conors4430]

For me it comes down to this. I want to live in a free society where people can do or be what they want as long as it doesn’t impact negatively on anyone else. Therefore it doesn’t matter to me whether something is natural or unnatural or whether someone was born a certain way or whether they weren’t. Unless there’s an actual societal downside then put your money where your mouth is and embrace the free society we apparently claim we all want. you live your life, I will live mine, and if there is a clash then we will work it out as best we can.

[@meowateyourchips7417]

Exactly. It doesn't matter (at least outside of medical scope) if someone was born this way or became this way due to environmental and genetic factors or even choosing to be this way, it's their freedom. It only becomes an issue when it infringes other people's rights and freedom.

[@andrewrobinson2565]

Who you calling "natural and unnatural". Your vocabulary needs a dry clean and an upgrade to the 21st century. +1 (almost there 👍).

[@andrewrobinson2565]

@@globalist1990 Thinking.... +1

[@MrGollum27]

yeah right, because what has it to do with you. how is your life demeaned if somebody has the right to join the military, or use the bathroom, or.. thats it. thats literally it for this conversation. in my opinion, nobody should care about this issue.

[@davidgro1189]

Mutilating healthy bodies is just insane.

[@davidlondon778]

I think this was an excellent discussion. The best bit for me was when Julia said that the opposition between biology and culture was a false dichotomy. I am reminded of what Marx said about history and social change: that humans make their own history but not under conditions of their own choosing. Similarly I think that people determine their sexuality or gender identity but not under conditions of their own choosing. The one does not negate the other.

[@Envision_]

Transgenderism is the complete opposite of Marxism

[@bleach3883]

@@owenjones9608 I don't really see people talk about the female (or male) sex category as a social construct but instead see gender which is a separate and more social issue classified as a social construct.

[@andrewgreen5574]

@@owenjones9608 that's not true, lol. There's a reason trans folk make the distinction of TRANS men and TRANS women. Likewise, if your claim was true then it would also eliminate rights distinct to the trans community as a whole, not just cis women.

[@andrewgreen5574]

@@bleach3883 because biological sex is highly differential, chromosomes can vary greatly from phenotypic expression of genitals. The interpretation of what gender to label an individual may not line up with the sex, especially with ambiguous genitalia. "The Marxist" approach would follow how society's superstructure uses gender conformity to reproduce culture for commodification and what role is gender used within capital reproduction.

[@andrewgreen5574]

@@owenjones9608 saying what religion you are doesn't change your biological disposition either, yet most apply freedom of religion as a right. Actually, "women's" spaces formed out of the Elizabethan era, superimposed by the upper class onto the lower class. I don't know what trans issues exist in the UK, but in the U.S. access to restroom and changing rooms is important. Black trans women are the highest demographic to be raped and murdered. Access to employment is a super important issue, and trans folk are one of the highest demographics to be homeless. Since most shelters are run by Christian organizations, access to homeless and battered spousal shelters is important. Spousal abuse and interactions with police has always been an LGBT issue, but even more so with trans women. Adoption services are usually ran by Christian organizations, and have excluded gay couples which also extends to the trans community. Access to healthcare, many trans folk turn to sex work as the mainstream economy generally shuns them, so access to care that stems from these issues.

[@dizzygreencow2010]

I don't think it really matters if nature or nurture is to 'blame'. What matters is that trans folk are people and worthy of the same respect as anyone else. Some people will always find ways to justify their prejudice/bigotry, purely so they can 'get away with' being a c*nt to those who don't conform to what they consider to be 'normal'. Nobody HAS to accept that another person is a particular gender... they can choose to do so or not, but they can also choose whether to be a c*nt to that other person or not. So many choose to hide behind particular ideologies to disguise their prejudice. To those people I would say don't be a coward... stand up and let your prejudice show the world how much of a c*nt you can be. Then face the consequences of that c*ntishness without whining about it.

[@raygoodspeed2382]

@@goodlookinouthomie1757 well thats good because we are not talking about men but trans women. Sporting disparities obviously have to researched and carefully considered, and each sporting organisation needs to take a balanced, research-based view. But is by no means ALWAYS the case that trans women beat cis women at sport. In any case the number of very athletic trans women is extremely small. This really is not the problem it has been blown up to be

[@ScottishVagabond]

In-fact there has never been a trans woman who has consistently out-performed their cis counterparts (note, I said *consistently* - look at the leagues of female MMA fighters to see that over all the few trans women involved *do not* top the leagues, even if they win some matches.) Really we should probably stop with the hard Men's/Women's sports categories as it forces cis people with varient characteristics, such as Castor Semenya, to take blockers against their will and endure all sorts of hate, just to compete. It makes no sense given that, by their very nature, professional sports people *are* biologically exceptional. What we should instead have are hormone, height, weight and displacement (for bone density) based categories in pro sports.

[@terezabuchlova5013]

@@ScottishVagabond at first I thought you were crazy. Then I thought about the huge number of categories (I hope I got the right word there) in Paralympics. They seem to organise that pretty ok. I'm not saying I agree or disagree (yet) but you've given me much food for thought. Thankyou. Have a great new year

[@AndrewCorser]

@@ScottishVagabond So we need to completely reorganise all sport because a few men (who call themselves trans women) want to compete against women? (Castor Semenya is an even rarer example of someone who is probably intersex, which is a different issue again: I don't know the medical details, but I understand that she is not 'trans' as she was identified as female at birth.) I think World Rugby has got it closest to correct...because they are concerned about the danger of litigation if a girl or woman is injured by a boy or man (who call themselves a trans girl or woman) playing rugby against them. This reflects the clear physical difference there is between men and woment, which is why sport is sex differentiated. Professional tennis is another area which clearly demonstrates the need for biological sex differentiation in sport. Maybe Terexa Buchlova has it right: trans people become a category in para sport.

[@terezabuchlova5013]

@@AndrewCorser tbc that wasn't what I said. I used para sport as an example of competition with multiple categories. It was a response to the last sentence of S Vagabond's comment.

[@davidwave4]

I really appreciate this perspective. If I'm understanding correctly: in biology, there is a spectrum of sexual behaviors, some accord with traditional ideas of gender performance, some don't. These behaviors are intrinsic, they are the consequence of biology. However, the constructs surrounding them are socially constructed -- what is "queer" or a divergent identity is based on social mores.

[@jameswest6085]

Literally a paradox 😵

[@ebflegg]

? Anyone who breeds animals knows what sex they are and what happens when you put the opposite sex ones together. Illiterate people have understood this for thousands of years. However, recently in human history people have gone to universities in cities and have discovered that despite these millennia of empirical experience, it’s all terribly complicated and nobody really understands it.

[@AndrewCorser]

@Trans Liberation I'm not sure how much scientific research there has been into these issues: your and Michael's belief that the way you are is 'part of your biology' may be genuine, but without broader research it is not possible to confirm your belief as 'fact'. As Julia Serano suggested, in any case modern views on the nurture/nature debate in science don't support the concept of being binary about the effects of biology or society - maybe you and Michael could be more non-binary about your belief in the biological basis of how you feel!

[@Envision_]

@Trans Liberation trans suicide due to alleged transphobia is a myth as the narrative that trans people are the most vulnerable minority that has ever existed. I couldn't find any data to support these claims. Even when asked directly, transactivists dodge this questions and simply say 'google it'. Then you will be linked to a KZbin video of an ideologue transactivist making exactly these claims

[@AndrewCorser]

@Trans Liberation I feel very much for your grief - you are involved in one of the most tragic services in society, and must be very brave to carry on with such work in the face of so many heart-breaking referrals. Also very brave to share your experiences with us - when a close friend of mine lost his teenage son to suicide, a boy not much older than my own boys, it really brought home to me how visceral such events are for family and friends. Thank you.

[@HellCatt0770]

GC people do not believe in sexist stereotypes, males can be feminine and females can be butch. This does not mean you’re in the wrong body. You don’t need surgery (but that’s your right). Doesn’t matter how feminine a man is he is not a woman - that is SEXIST and regressive! I am no less a woman because I fix things, wear jeans, don’t wear make-up!!!

[@FredHMusic-gr7nu]

Shaun’s “Transphobia in the UK” video has perhaps the strongest arguments for trans rights not only ideologically but also on a practical basis. While the discussions regarding biology in relation to trans people isn’t entirely irrelevant, I don’t think it should trump advocating for people to simply accept the gender/sex that others SAY they are without being required to medically prove it.

[@Envision_]

But there are some serious implications for women's rights to be considered. Besides could you please tell me which rights do transgender people do not have in the UK right now? Free plastic surgery is not a right nor getting validation for your self-chosen identity. So which rights are being denied - or worse - taken away from transgender people in the UK?

[@kelechii7209]

@@Envision_ Do you think it's fair to make an argument that transgender people are not discriminated against because of legal protections? Feminists have always noted the limits of the law (for example in eradicating male violence against women and rape), but when it comes to trans people like you throw all common sense out of the window? The fact that there may be legal protections doesn't change the fact that so many trans people are practically excluded from public life. Think about why transexuals are overrepresented in the sex trade for example.

[@satyasyasatyasya5746]

The question is an interesting one, but its ultimately not important since Trans people do exist, and they are well, people. And as such, they deserve the right to exist and legal/medical help simply to be - like anyone does. Its the same with gay people, or even PoC. The biological questions are in part a distraction and can actually do more harm since it can be used against LGBT/PoC etc. in the usual psuedo-scientific, social engineering kind of ways. What all these issues come down to whether its trans, gay, black etc. is disgust. Certain people are disgusted by certain other people and seek to legislate them out of existence and pretend that minorities are somehow a danger to the normies. Which is always a nonsense. Thus I think, more focus should be put on a kind of counter-apologetics to the TERF, homophobic or racist 'arguments' that tend to sway regular people or political reactionaries.

[@aninjatuna8576]

The main argument i have personally encountered is that 'terfs' believe certain spaces should only be accessible to biological females, not gendered females. What would the counter argument be to this?

[@satyasyasatyasya5746]

@@aninjatuna8576 That there is no (given the context) meaningful difference between cis and trans women in those spaces. TERFs like to pretend that 6foot5 hairy cis men in dresses will waltz into changing rooms swinging their junk around saying "I'm a lady" just to terrorise cis women but it has never and will never happen. Trans women are often among the most self-aware and private people anyway. There just isn't any reason not to include trans women in the spaces TERFs pretend to care about. TERFs just justify exclusion by claiming harm. Its an old trick. Its just a palace of reactionary excuses built upon a foundation of primal disgust. TERFs just find transwomen icky, thats it. The same with straights against gays and whites against PoC etc.

[@pb1105]

@@xx-my5vh Why is transphobia a bad thing? I'm trans, but I'm curious why you think it's bad to be transphobic.

[@pb1105]

@@FreeTheDonbas I was threatened with rape when I used the bathroom as you're suggesting. I don't think I'll do that again any time soon.

[@pb1105]

@@FreeTheDonbas I had problems, you see. So I'll ignore your suggestions and recommend others do aswell. I also had to flee a domestic abuse situation 4 years ago - would've been nice to have a refuge to escape to. But this is about bullying women with broad chins and above average body hair growth, so it doesn't matter to you.

[@audioporcupine3725]

Totally incovincing argument. Whether you have traits that are “typical” of the other sex does not mean you are like that. This is absolutely regressive arguments that to be a man or women you for in to certain stereotypes. Absolutely ridiculous.

[@weezersthebluealbum9479]

Just about to start a uni essay on trans women and my professor recommended me Julia Serano's work, hoping this is very educational.

[@turbofx4049]

Thanks Weezers The Blue Album

[@joshkirby2372]

@@goodlookinouthomie1757 So?

[@dreamclaw00]

@@goodlookinouthomie1757 Isn't that kind of subjective?

[@philsophkenny]

Being autistic I find a lot of this resonates, despite being neither gay or trans. Being autistic definitely effects not only how I live in my own body but also interact with the world. It seems ridiculous to me that anyone one question the validity of being autistic, so why trans or queerness ect? There seems still to be people denying the genetic basis of autism. I think many of these different divergences from the norm are running into many of the the same structural/societal failures, inadequacies.

[@paulanaylor3548]

@@owenjones9608 Those silly trans activists, wanting to be treated like human beings, not wanting to be called rapists or predators (if trans women) or gullible and easily led astray (if trans men). How dare they not want to be beaten, raped and killed for not adhering to the gender binary, amen, and not wanting to be another name read out on the Transgender Day of Remembrance. And on that note, you won't believe how many gender hypocritical feminists are ableist against autistic people, by claiming we are too naive and stupid to know our own minds when one expresses gender dysphoria so we must be protected by having our bodily autonomy taken away from us.

[@jackbartzen9133]

the one thing i don’t understand about the sorta intrinsic/biological explanation tho is the people who, while the amount who do so is pretty limited, decide that they aren’t actually trans after transitioning. i def wanna check out her book tho, it sounds pretty insightful and could prob answer that. in the end tho, it shouldn’t really make a difference in the treatment of trans people

[@SusannaSaunders]

I look at it this way... When you think of sexual intercourse do your genitals align with whether you see yourself playing a male or female role? Playing a male role just felt inherently wrong, while sex as a woman felt inherently right. My sexual urges are aligned as a woman but not as a man. It's alignment of your gender experience with your gender role. It's not about being straight either. I'm now a lesbian in a lesbian marriage. This feels 'right' to me.

[@AndrewCorser]

Could I ask about your terms 'male or female role' in the context of sexual intercourse? Is a female role taking your partner inside your body? Being underneath? Not taking the lead? Surely all of these roles in sexual intercourse are open to both sexes? In both hetero and homosexual intercouse? Or are you talking about gender stereotypes rather than male or female roles? A lot of this discussion is about gaining a common understanding of the terms we are using...and then moving forward to a more objective dialectic...

[@samweeks2128]

There is no 'male roles' or 'female roles' . Is a man who enjoys being penetrated taking the 'female role'? That was the view in ancient times. It was all about the penetrator vs. the penetrated. A male pentrating another male was still taking the male role. Gender is a social construct.

[@ebalsdon5870]

thank you for this discussion I've learned a lot

[@inxe8]

Kathleen Stock didn't "leave", she was driven out. If you can't even be honest about the misdoings of your allies, how can you purport to be arguing from a position of good faith?

[@emzeebibs2938]

Yes, I noticed that, and the way he said it with that slight smirk. - disappointing and revealing that he's just a standard TRA - alongside this Julia who once you breakdown her standard GCSE biology argument on atoms - is no different. Sad really.

[@inxe8]

@Trans Liberation A woman academic was made to feel unsafe on a university campus, the faculty and police could not guarantee her safety and so she was forced to resign. How is this supportable? And I'm sorry but by euphemistically describing it as Stock "leaving" that's precisely what's being done. This complete lack of accountability when activism becomes harassment diminishes the cause of Trans rights in the eyes of the masses.

[@inxe8]

@Trans Liberation So much for "believe women".... And honestly, are you justifying this by basically saying two wrongs make a right? Has it not occurred to you that if you normalize behaviour like this its inevitably going to end up on your own doorstep?

[@emzeebibs2938]

@Trans Liberation I'm sorry, there is no there way to put this but you sound a bit of a headcase here. (Happy New Year btw :-))

[@inxe8]

@Trans Liberation Can you not separate the merits of a just cause from the methods used to accomplish that aim? My issue is not with trans rights, but the handwaving off of the persecution of dissident academics. Stock, based on interviews I've seen, has clearly been traumatized by the experience. That's not a good look, especially when the subtext is "she deserved it." Do you honestly think that the optics of this are helpful to the cause of trans rights or leftism in general?

[@toi_techno]

trying to convince transphobes and homophobes with biological facts will never work. arguing and indeed legislating for the freedom to live in whatever way you want, once no harm is done to others as a result, is the only approach that will work long term. kindness, not judgement and nastiness towards those unlike ourselves, must be the bedrock of society. arguing with people about this I have settled on trying to get a good reason why it has anything to do with them how someone else lives.

[@AndrewCorser]

Not sure how kind and non-judgemental it is to use terms like transphobe ... in this context ...

[@verifiedmama]

Julia Serrano sounds like an astronomer trying to explain astrology. Maybe the simple explanation is that trans people’s organs, hormones and minds are somehow “out of balance” in comparison to a human that can reproduce and continue with their life as their assigned sex. Maybe there are many things that affected their hormonal and sexual development in the womb or developing early age. This could be genetic, environmental, toxins or chemicals.

[@meowateyourchips7417]

I personally think it shouldn't matter whether or not people were born this way or became that way in terms of gender and sexual orientation. They are still human beings. What's important to realize is that it's not a choice and it doesn't necessarily mean you can change it. Hey, even if it's a choice, that's their right to choose. It only becomes a problem when it infringes on other people's rights.

[@paulwolstenholme1673]

i think that's how the vast majority of the UK population feels but are demonised as trans-haters when they Do try to tackle the infringement of other peoples rights. It surprises me when some trans-women seem not to understand or respect the actual women in the spaces they are forcing their way into. I can understand why women,some of whom have fought long and hard to achieve a measure of equality separate from men feel threatened when they see a visually physical male enter a female-only space . Speaking as a bloke,I don't think it would bother me if a trans-man or trans-woman wanted to share mens only dressing rooms or changing rooms. It's different for women though and that is what is not being respected.

[@Envision_]

The activist part of the trans community in particularly hostile towards women, lesbians and gay men as they say that it is transphobic to say that you are not attacked to trans identified individuals and that we should work on ourselves to overcome our 'genital preferences' and become more accepting of the opposite sex - something that sounds suspiciously like conversion therapy for lesbians and gays

[@alpacacomentadora413]

yeah, and nobody should be forced to accept transsexuals, we must tolerate their existence but if I don't want to be friends with a transsexual that's fine

[@alkhemiegypt]

I'm a huge fan of Novara Media, but I was disappointed with this interview. I had a lecture on sex/gender on my MA psychology course which left me with more questions, and I was hoping that this interview would help me to understand the subject more. But that didn't happen. I haven't read the guest's book, so I can't comment on how well-written it is, but I found her comments in the interview to be waffly and imprecise. It doesn't help that "gender" and "sex" are used interchangeably with regards to the issue. As I understand it, "sex" = a biological definition of which chromosome a person has - x or y (with very few exceptions); "gender" = narrow bandwidths of socially constructed norms that are expected of males and females, usually imposed by patriarchy. Despite the claims that this was a scientific discussion with a scientist, there was no mention of genetics, just "inclinations" which are less easy to quantify and harder to confirm as biological.

[@alkhemiegypt]

@Annelies Jansen I can ALWAYS ask questions of ANY orthodoxy.

[@markovermeer1394]

I feel that Kathleen Stock is misrepresented. I listened to two long interviews with her, and she makes sensible statements on the importance to "sex at birth" (f.i. in the medical research) and freedom to pick her own social groups (she has the fundamental right pick her own social group). Next week an interview with Kathleen? [I find it weird that a biologist picks height as gender indicator example, instead of X and Y DNA strings... it may be a social level valid argument, but not a biological one]

[@lethalsub]

"I feel that Kathleen Stock is misrepresented." Yes, it's not made abundantly clear that she's transphobic. "I listened to two long interviews with her, and she makes sensible statements on the importance to "sex at birth" (f.i. in the medical research) and freedom to pick her own social groups (she has the fundamental right pick her own social group)." You haven't provided any links, they might be helpful - so everyone here can listen to Professor Stock talking. How else can people ascertain what you've stated? Then it might be helpful if you can find trans activists that disagree with the points you mentioned. "Next week an interview with Kathleen?" I doubt she would accept the invitation. "[I find it weird that a biologist picks height as gender indicator example, instead of X and Y DNA strings... it may be a social level valid argument, but not a biological one]" Do you mind expanding on why you think this is the case? (She mentions this around 6:06)

[@lethalsub]

@@waynemongo "Ms Stock may be transphobic but the points she raised were fair from her perspective. That should of been acknowledged by her detractors." I presume you've seen these two interviews that the original poster mentioned. I still haven't seen them and there is no point in you voicing your opinion on it until I have. "Is there a word for people who would happily remove the perceived rights and privileges of Ms Stock?" There is no point in using rhetoric if you can't demonstrate that this view was displayed by her detractors.

[@lethalsub]

@@waynemongo .)sresuort ruoy pu llup uoy erofeb ssa ruoy depiw ev'uoy taht kcehc-elbuod dna( deniart yttop ylreporp neeb ev'uoy retfa kcab emoc esaelp ,tluda na ekil gnihtemos ssucsid ot tnaw uoy fI .tnuc etareneged a ekil ssip eht ekat ot ereh er'uoy tnedive ylriaf s'ti ,tnemmoc ym ot yltcerid dednopser t'nevah uoy ecniS .yaw yna ni suoromuh eb ot tnaem ton saw tsop suoiverp ym ,gnisuma si tahw ees ot liaf I "!bup eht nwod hgual a er'uoy teb I .oh oh"

[@lethalsub]

@Trans Liberation "Or will there be a case like Florida where public authorities carry out genital inspections to exclude transgender people..." I googled this and came across more than a few news articles, but is this stated explicitly in the text of the House Bill?

[@daraorourke5798]

Misogynists.

[@Mircalla]

Gender is a social construct, and it's actually pretty easy to understand if you engage in good faith for a few minutes. The easiest way to understand it is this: everybody knows that it's usually the case that women have long hair, and men tend to have short hair, right? But why is that? It's not biological. Well, the answer to this question is just that... it's just a rule that people follow. For most people, that's all there is to it, and they never think about it. But where does that rule come from? Well, we made it. We, as in, humans, as a society. And it's a rule that we enforce socially (you might be made fun of for having long hair as a man, or short hair as a women). So, it's a rule that we constructed ourselves, and we enforce it socially. Hence, it is a social construct. That's all common sense. And there are lots of different aspects of gender you can apply this logic to. Women wearing dresses, women wearing makeup, men drinking beer and not wearing pink. These are all rules that we made up and enforce socially. They are social constructs. These are the things that most people can acknowledge are just social constructs. Very few people would argue that women are biologically predisposed to wearing makeup or that men are biologically averse to wearing pink. But what about the less obvious examples of gender-related social constructs? Pronouns, for instance. Why is it that, in English, we refer to women as "she/her" in the third person, and men as "he/him"? Well, just like all those other things... it's just a rule. It's a rule we made up, and it's a rule we enforce socially. Hence, it is a social construct. Women have long hair, wear makeup, and are referred to as "she/her". They're just rules. Pronouns are unarguably a social construct. You can tell this is the case, because in different societies, the rule is different (different languages, for instance). You can even apply this logic to the word "woman" and the word "man". Think about it. Why are "women" called "women"? Why are "men" called "men"? As opposed to literally any other thing or word we could have called them? Well, the answer is the same. It's just a rule we made up. It's a rule we made up, and it's a rule we enforce socially. Hence, it is a social construct. Again, this is evidenced by the fact that different societies have different words. All of this is unarguable. There are two essentially arbitrary words (man/woman) that get applied to people the moment they are born. And once that happens, all of the other rules associated with that word get tacked on as well. And here's the kicker: WHich of those two words you'll be assigned is based on your genitals, but even that is in and of itself just a rule. The idea that the word woman gets applied to you because you have a vagina is literally just a rule. A social construct. The idea that having a vagina makes you a "woman" is literally just a social construct. And that's all that gender is. Gender is literally just a social construct. Or rather, it's loads of tiny social constructs horrifically stapled together and forced on people based on their genitals. If you agreed with the first paragraph (the idea that women having long hair is just a social construct) then you must agree with the rest of it. Because it's the exact same logic.

[@Mircalla]

@@xx-my5vh It already is. When you look at someone on the street you don't know what their sex is. You don't know what their chromosomes are. You don't determine whether someone is a man or a woman by grabbing their genitals, you guess based on their gender expression, or by asking.

[@Mircalla]

@@TheOnlyCathyCat I know. But I still will.

[@aninjatuna8576]

@@Mircalla So should trans women be able to access female only (biological) spaces? Should trans women be able to compete in female sports despite going through puberty as a boy? I'm genuinely asking in good faith. I really liked your point that society makes gender more of an important factor than sex, but i'm on the fence about the issue and want to learn more

[@aninjatuna8576]

@@TheOnlyCathyCat how is he not acting in good faith?

[@aninjatuna8576]

@@xx-my5vh out of curiosity, why do you think the state should prioritise sex over gender? And, are there any specific instances in which you think it would be important for society to prioritise sex over gender?

[@daviddevoy2197]

Don't disagree with anything said. My problem is with the idea that you can take a rigid legal framework which causes pain because if its rigidity (IMO) and fix 8t using a revised legal code of equal rigidity. All you are doing us just shifting the pain from one group to another, There are a group of XX chromosome human beings who are very seriously uncomfortable with sharing private spaces with people with XY chromosome combinations. That problem will not go away by making it illegal for them to object.

[@powderandpaint14]

What pain is changing the law causing to cis people?

[@powderandpaint14]

Also you have probably already shared spaces with people with XY chromosomes, but because their physical presentation was typically female you didn't notice.

[@daviddevoy2197]

@@powderandpaint14 Some women are terrified of some really ugly minded guys using "self identification" laws to facilitate their sexual abuse. How would you reassure them?

[@powderandpaint14]

@@daviddevoy2197 I realise that, but it simply doesn't happen. Men who want to assault women are already doing it,they don't need to claim to be women! (With the exception of a person who has been convicted of sexual crimes against women and identifies as a woman themselves, they should not be put into the general population of a women's prison)

[@mercyferal]

Being trans has always felt deeply spiritual to me. Transition is a spiritual imperative. It’s about self-actualisation and aligning with my higher self. It’s weird to me that this is such an unpopular opinion. Even within the trans community which is largely atheist.

[@Ocyon]

Thank you for this :)

[@duckweedy]

Maybe this is simplistic but to expect people to fit stereotypes re gender is as stupid as expecting everyone to be same height and same colour eyes.

[@WhichDoctor1]

I actually wrote this comment in response to someone in a totally different video yesterday. But I feel like it encapsulates my feelings about the subjects they're talking about here quite well The way I personally think about it is that there is something in my brain that holds a blueprint of how it expects my body to look, and holds preferences for how it would like me to behave. That appears to be fairly hard wired, as the social pressure to conform to what a man is expected to be for 20+ years didn't do anything to eradicate it. But that is just my personal experience, other trans people seem to see things differently. And there's no saying whos right or wrong atm cause there's soo little research and brains and psychology are soo complex and hard to pin down. But gender is different from all that. Its just the name we give as a society to the ways people look and act. In the west we traditionally have two genders, many cultures have three genders, a few have 4 or 5 genders. And even in cultures that only have two genders, what behaviours and ways of presenting are expected of those genders varies wildly both between cultures and in the same culture over time. After all in the 1700th century in England it was expected of hetrosexual cisgender upper class men to wear tights, high heels, flamboyant and fashionable clothing, long hair, wright sentimental love poetema and publicly cry while watching the opera. In conclusion genders are lables we put on groups of people to organise them. Those groups do tend to have originally arisen from basic biological factors, but assigning social roles to those observed difrences is fairly arbitrary and always in flux. Even without trans folks and enbys coming along to confuse people even more :p

[@ScottishVagabond]

@@casteretpollux if that was the case then AFAB and AMAB folk who can't reproduce would not be categorised as such. The reality of gender is infinitely more complex than who can and cannot impregnate/get pregnant. Indeed, if that was the sole conception, we might not have any means of talking about gender at all. It wouldn't exist. Perception matters more than specific biological conditions.

[@ScottishVagabond]

@@nedludd3110 because it doesn't apply to trans folks neatly, basically. It doesn't do any good to discuss transfolk in the context of these trends as they frequently skew data sets. It's also not accurate, looking further into it what we actually see is 'people with testosterone/cortisol imbalances are more aggressive' because testosterone is a bigger endocrinal actor in general in men, this phenomena *usually* is more observable in people who are phenotypically male, but it has very little relevance to outliers who (for whatever reason) lie outwith the norms. Boys *are* more aggressive', but this is a result of a combination of endocrinal factors, environmental factors and social factors across time.

[@glittermarsian5054]

Very much ABOUT gender critical feminists. I'm not sure if NM ever have actually included one in their show? SINCERELY a trans socialist radfem

[@glittermarsian5054]

@@TomMAF4 I made a 30 minute effort to answer this yesterday but seems my comment didn't get published?? Damn that's frustrating. The short story though: you seem to think Novara strive for a balanced leftist debate, but are afraid of how they would be "painted" or interpreted as. I don't think so, they already taken stance, not because of their public image, because they have an opinion. They don't want an balanced debate on topics like these.

[@enkido5838]

Very unconvincing. I remain roughly where Michael was in his introduction, and conclusion I suspect This sort of miscommunication of science undermines all science just as when the right does it to mislead. The guest was quite willing to use the terms tall and short to describe people (more polite than other terms), but still a distinction that can be hurtful and way more subjective than male / female. Male and female are simply the shorthand for having or not having certain organs. Gender is a totally different thing.

[@sarastevenssinger8126]

loved this discussion.

[@robertwinslade3104]

As someone who works as a bookseller I have been pleasantly surprised to see that Shon Faye's 'The Transgender Issue' sells WAAAY better than either Kathleen Stock's or Helen Joyce's books. Atleast in the shop I work in

[@emzeebibs2938]

however, meanwhile in the rest of the world away from echo chambers Stock and Joyce are doing great.

[@robertwinslade3104]

@@emzeebibs2938 trust me, Waterstones is not an echo chamber 😂

[@emzeebibs2938]

@@robertwinslade3104 do you work for that Waterstones where staff have been accused of promoting their ideology and biases by Julie Bindel and K.Stock? That Waterstones.

[@zsht]

Trans rights are absolutely critical. The end-game still must be to build a society where we don’t need any labels, and everyone is in love with their body, and feels able to fall in love with anyone-and I think we sometimes lose sight of that.

[@meowateyourchips7417]

It's crazy than even like a decade ago, the left was very anti gender but now gender identity is so protected.

[@deefjohnholler]

ask a cisgender person when they knew they were cis or whether they were born that way and the answer they give is likely the same as that given by a trans person. i have always been like this. i cannot imagine any other way of being. it is not a choice. it is their identity. it is just who i am. the difference is that a transphobe refuses to accept the existence of any other lived experience except as an abnormality. i accept cisgender identity but it is not for me. for a while there i thought i was cisgender. social pressure is one hell of a boss fight.

[@pb1105]

Some will say "I'm not cis, that's a slur" 🤣

[@mormerbar4938]

@@pb1105 although a fellow countryman of mine invented the twrm cis in the 70s i personally dislike being labelled cis, much as i dislike labelling at all. I'd expect you being by not just stigma, misinformation and labelling would agree that one key to equality would be reducing labelling instead of voicing such statements. X

[@fiona4190]

I find it odd. I never identified as a woman I just think I am one as I have a woman's body. I wouldn't term it as part of my identity anymore than I would say "I identify as a tall person". It just is. It's physical for me. When I think about my identity I think about what I believe and feel, what I have achieved and what I have failed at etc. Gender doesn't play a part. I guess I see gender as a negative thing that is designed to keep people in boxes. It is interesting to hear people feel so differently from me and see gender as a key part of their identity.

[@pb1105]

@@fiona4190 Some people have ambiguous bodies. I used to be bullied for looking like a lesbian long before I transitioned or even knew trans people existed.

[@nissutobor9078]

@@fiona4190 This isn't uncommon with cis people... I think OP is understating how much thought it would take for the average cis person to reach these answers, because they've generally never had to think much about their gender. Certainly not anywhere near the amount trans people have to ponder their own gender before coming out. As a friend once put it, "A fish does not ponder what the absence of water would feel like until it finds its water absent"... I probably butchered that line, but cis people don't really think too much about their gender, because it doesn't feel intrinsically wrong to them. It just is, and that's generally enough to make them comfortable with themselves. But for us trans people, our gender is an all consuming thought. Until we fix it.

[@GThu1]

3:45 Those pesky chromosomes are not complicated at all. "Trans activists" tend to "forgot" that those are not social constructs, we have two possible variations only, it's encoded in every cell in every people, so hardly changable. All biology is coming from this (cells). You can dig deeper, but this is the first and most significant, decisive difference between the sexes. You can dress it as you like, but this is fact. Their gender stuff is a construct and I would not care if it they don't try force this on me. Inventing thoght police and thoughtcrime is never a good idea.

[@gretareinarsson7461]

Started wathcing this channel for somewhat a wrong reason but I have become addicted to in some ways. Always something interesting to listen to.

[@WarMomPT]

"I am talking to my absolute favourite author and thinker on this topic" Shon Faye: 'Am I a joke to you?' In all serious, it's nice to have Julia on given that she gives an ultimately different perspective to Faye, who usually operates - and fairly so - on 'pointless question, let's talk about how society actually treats trans people'. Making it all the more well-rounded; thanks for having her on!

[@wraithofsolidarity]

I was a bit spun out by the idea that transgender is genetic. Sure enough, upon some research, history is chockablock with transgender people, from Roman lords to Sumerian priests, some going as far as wanting surgery, all pre-dating modern medicine and culture. We have a sort of inner 'chirality' that will express itself given an outcome, I guess going from genetic level to executive functions. People are brilliant.

[@andrewrobinson2565]

I have biological proof that my paternal DNA and chromosomes are the direct cause of my daughter's gender dysphoria. The biology is there. It's whether certain parts of society can play the game of respect. 49% are not ready, so worried about what some "god" or the neighbours will say. That's purely irreligious.

[@alpacacomentadora413]

No, it is hormonal during pregnacy

[@themnocrat]

The Adam & Steve argument has to be the most unscientific argument ever doesn’t it???

[@kelvin000uk]

An interesting discussion on biology but, as is often the case with these gender discussions, it was one sided and relied on created strawmen. The real point of conflict seems to be a fundamental difference in the way feminists and trans-activists understand the world and our existence within it: Second-wave feminism is based on the concept that gender is not inate but is socially prescribed and is unequal. We are the outcome therefore of our gendered, inequitable experiences. Trans-activism on the otherhand claims individuals are the outcome of their experienced desires. That's not to say agreement and acceptance is impossible - anarchists, trotskyists and democratic socialists can debate and work together. But all sides need to be heard and respected.

[@kil2250]

Separating Feminist and Transactivist is pretty bold considering all the Tran People that where a part of the 2nd wave, and in all major feminist movements. And still to this day. What you are doing is making a very very false claim that terfs are feminist where infact they are simply stealing rhetoric for their hateful gains. With this conflation pretty much everything you said is nonsense.

[@kil2250]

@@xx-my5vh If it wasnt for WOMEN of all flavors teaming up** FIFY

[@ebflegg]

@@xx-my5vh He’s just told me I ‘deserve the wall’ because I quoted the judicial review on TW in prisons

[@kelvin000uk]

@@kil2250 I agree my summary was rather reductionist. In my defence, there isn't really the space in a KZbin comment to be particularly nuanced. I'm not trying to mark out or assign people to absolute positions. I'm trying to change the perspective of the debate to one that sees the issue as a difference of social paradigms, with the recognition that people on the left can have differences of opinion but can work together. I want to find a way forward out of this destructive name calling and viciousness.

[@kil2250]

@@ebflegg She* and Terfs do, if you ID as one, then you should line up if you had any dignity or honor left in you.

[@AlbertoGarcia-wd7sc]

Even if it were a choice, it still would be okay

[@jamessmith6363]

It’s definitely not but yeah I wouldn’t have chosen it I knew knew around 2

[@darcypocklington6866]

Serano may desire to be female. And some may desire to be a penguin. No matter how intense and heartfelt this desire may be, and no matter what steps Serano has taken to enact female-typical behaviours, there is no moral obligation on the part of others to affirm Serano's self-declared identity. Meanwhile, members of the female sex do have a moral right to create spaces that exclude non-females, just as any oppressed class has a right to exclude persons who are not members of their class. Female-only groups have been crucial to the success of movements to improve the status of the female sex. Serano has a political aim of undermining female-only space, which makes Serano an anti-feminist and a creep.

[@kelechii7209]

You think having a strong psychological desire to be read as the opposite sex of humans is the same to having a strong psychological desire to be another animal species? I've always found this comparison to be so dehumanising to trans people. Other animals don't have complex gendered ways of behaving and your comparison reminds me of conservatives saying that because two men wanted to have sex with each other it would open the door for humans to have sex with animals. It's a stupid argument.

[@littletree1343]

I dont know why theres so much debate?? Its clear cut, they try to make it complicated to confuse and push their agenda - you cannot change sex ever - sex is binary it's not a spectrum.

[@zooblestyx]

Trans rights!

[@le_monki954]

trans (atlantic slave trade) rights!

[@paulthomas8262]

I think the focus on gender identity distracts from reconsigning trans as a phenomenon, so people can express themselves independently from others. Essentially there s no inherent right for any form of identity to to be recognised, it has been done from time to time but is not a fundamental right like expression, theoretically. Protected class or characteristics were recognised in the civil rights movement to protect a different right, which was freedom from discrimination not so much recognition of ones identity, which is an individual thing and protected by freedom of expression.

[@happyn7817]

Why don’t have have laws to protect everyone rather than those who have the most vocal/eloquent/educated advocates?

[@rocaro88]

True, but I am too shure about the educated part. Often. ignorance is what fuels the vocal and the eloquent.....

[@skwame]

Invite Kathleen Stock for an interview. Based on what I’ve seen of her I’m pretty sure she wouldn’t decline an invitation. From a scientific point of view invite opposing l biologists so a proper debate can be had

[@feydrautha012]

Stock is busy starting that "University of Austin" which is very real and not a grift. Also Texas, where I'm from, has stand your ground laws, so any visiting gammon should be very careful about threatening trans or any LGBT people (Austin has a big queer community), lest it be their last visit.

[@robbiespence6504]

I'd like to see a debate about this between Julia and for example Colin Wright the evolutionary biologist or Emma Hilton @fondofbeetles

[@polarcorpuscle2941]

Transgenderism is a way of obfuscating meaning in a similar way that adolescent fashion trends like goth, or emo. It's all costumes, smoke and mirrors. I normally wouldn't care, but the fact that transgender identity has become enshrined as something incontrovertible, and is also linked through the compulsion of language to progressive politics, I naturally strongly oppose it.

[@ace.of.space.]

Really appreciated hearing Julia Serano speak about this

[@emmawilliams3145]

I was thinking whilst watching this interview that trans identities are not the social constructs, but it's the cis normative society that has been constructed based around biological essentialism that has made everything so black and white. But this can be very easily translated to so many other aspects of human diversity to identify other divisions within society whether that be race, gender, sexuality or any number of differences that we have.

[@pb1105]

I think you've articulated this really well. It reminds me of an idea from Judith Butler with a very exciting name : The Heterosexual Matrix.

[@emmawilliams3145]

@@pb1105 Thanks, I'll have to look into that, I've heard of them but I've never really explored their work.

[@ScottishVagabond]

@@globalist1990 unfortunately that would require less bigotry from the general population. Until trans people can be accepted on the basis of their personal understanding and not encounter barriers when they reveal themselves to be trans, then this will never come to pass.

[@silliestchi]

damn this interviewer sucks. he seems to completely misunderstand modern trans philosophy, and strangely takes this interview to a debate realm. We could of gained more insight into Julia's philosophy and research but instead she was basically having to eli5 why bio essentialism is not the flawless argument he thinks it is. like did he even read her work??

[@merlynscave]

Thank you for that discussion. Very informative and enlightening. I do feel that , and this may be very controversial for some, but religion has played a major part in the prejudices that are indoctrinated in many people. If religious and basic teachings were open minded about the fact that some people are born different then there would be no need to have to try and explain why someone ‘is’ different. If the fact that someone is gay, or a cross dresser, or trans or bisexual is not difficult enough for any individual, young or old, to deal with, the pressure from society makes it even more arduous. I say this from the perspective of understanding, totally, the dilemma.

[@HellCatt0770]

Definitely does in US. Nothing to do with UK GC movement which is largely atheist, left biased women and LESBIANS/Gay men.

[@nissutobor9078]

@@HellCatt0770 They certainly inform each other.

[@anopinionatedlaymanappears9052]

This video only reinforces the notion that this is still a debate. If gender or sexuality is genetically determined, what biological function is responsible and how does the host become aware of it? As a biologist you should be more specific, right? Otherwise it's just an expert opinion not science. You can't say that it's both genetic and social factors that contribute, but then follow it by saying you'd be trans no matter what culture you grew up in. Those are two contradictory positions. I'm so sick of this debate, tbh. Can we just say we don't know until we actually have science to back up either claim? Yes, nature vs nurture is outdated, but our nature has always been nurtured.

[@simonerossi6074]

If the social interpretation of gender were incorrect, how would you explain the non binary approach to gender anthropologists recorded in cultures, especially (but not only) outside Europe?

[@AndrewCorser]

Could you expand on what you mean...I'm sorry: I don't understand what you are saying.

[@mothboi3394]

I was also wondering that, but she does touch upon it around (17:45) when discusing how biological gender can be seen as a spectrum between male and female.

[@lucidghostgirl686]

Simple question. What part of your body are you? Thought is required to answer thus question. The popular media did the same thing to gay eople in the 80s... The debate will fade...its just distraction...the question is which community will be picked on next?

[@BeccaAl]

@@goodlookinouthomie1757 you joke right?!😆

[@BeccaAl]

The question is which community is being ‘picked on’ NOW. (Picked-on; cute way of saying facing immense discrimination 😉)

[@BeccaAl]

@@goodlookinouthomie1757 as someone who has been in one those spaces many times, the big Womens centre in my home city, who wrote the National transgender inclusion policy, I’ve met and engaged with quite a few lovely women who are transgender there and never been made to feel unsafe or even uncomfortable by any of them. Men, in general, are a different story, for me.

[@StuartGrant-fm6ti]

If anyone is confused by this ( which is kind of the point ) go read Helen Joyce's book, she translates this nonsense perfectly into something actualy does make sense...

[@RaefonB]

I think Michael did a good job here - please don't be afraid to push back with logical/rational counterpoints, it's a positive thing for you to be doing, to help trans people put forward their case for being taken seriously. Julia seems like a lovely person, and it's good that you found a trans person with scientific expertise, BUT still seemed like some of her ideas were closer to those we see in the cult-like regions of Twitter, where it's assumed okay to shrug off biology as a factor. Would be great if you find a few other trans people with scientific backgrounds to talk to and put forward these same/similar questions. Felt like you'd nailed the solid, important part of the debate and too many people are tiptoeing around it, veering off into safer, vaguer discourse territory. We need more reflection, insight and answers. Cheers.

[@Envision_]

Trans people with scientific backgrounds sounds like an oxymoron to me

[@RaefonB]

@@Envision_ I think Julia Serano has a PhD in biochemistry and molecular biophysics and she was a researcher in the field of genetics and developmental and evolutionary biology for 17 years - does that not count as a scientific background?

[@kat-vk7fp]

The level of condescension you level at one of the most formost thinkers in modern feminism is insane. 'Her ideas were closer to those we see in cult-like religions', are you for real?! Why not actually listen to us as human beings, and unlearn the trans-mysogny you apply to us.

[@RaefonB]

@@kat-vk7fp "Cult-like regions" of social media. Not cult-like religions. Also, please note I said SOME of her ideas, not all. :) I'm sorry you found my comment condescending; it wasn't intended to be.

[@hArtyTruffle]

I don’t agree it’s biological. I had those same feelings when I was a child. I thought I was in the wrong body because I felt masculine. I’m still a Woman because I came to accept that I have a female body, and it was ok to be in my body, even though I felt like I did. Women fought for sex-based rights for good reason. I don’t get why Transwomen don’t fight for their own spaces, given that in many cases, allowing Transwomen into Women only spaces makes Women vulnerable, and totally undoes how far we’ve come. Transwomen are not Women. They are Transwomen because of how they feel. To deny that they are Transwomen makes it seem to me that they are Transphobic. Julia argues that there a diversities within all living beings, and she’s right, there are. So why can’t Transwomen accept that they number amongst said diversity? The alternative is not acceptable in regards to the sexual vulnerability of Women.

[@Shalanaya]

Trans people dont feel theyre in the wrong body because theyre too masculine or feminine though, it does not go away with acceptance how you were born. Did you also experience disassociation, being stuck in a space outside yourself, not fully being able to communicate, not being able to ever be truly intimate with anyone, not being able have any fulfilling life, yes that is what trans people experience before transition, if acceptance resolved this, then all those therapies with psychologists would have worked in the past.

[@hArtyTruffle]

@@Shalanaya I didn’t mean acceptance and not transition. I know it’s important for people to look like how they feel inside. I mean acceptance that they are Trans, and not appropriating Womens private spaces. They are not, and never can be Women. They will always be Transwomen/Transmen, should embrace who they are, and should respect Womens’ need for private spaces.

[@hArtyTruffle]

@@Shalanaya Not in Women only places they haven’t. Women fought hard for their sex-based rights. Not about to give them up. Don’t call Women Cis. They’re Women. Transwomen are Transwomen. Simples. End of.

[@hArtyTruffle]

@@Shalanaya ps I have lived with dissociation all my life.

[@Shalanaya]

@@hArtyTruffle Yes I understand, yet would you imagine for at least a few minutes what it would be like to be segregated by your handicap, like for example you'd have to be only in private spaces with women who have no ovaries, even though missing that body part doesn't play any importance in those spaces at all, to me it feels very degrading and humiliating, and nonsensical, because in a truest sense how they experience life, they are women who have a handicap, that is their reality, they are a "type" of women, but it would be realistically wrong to say not women at all, because even gender identity alone makes us either male or female as well

[@danielsykes7558]

Michael is gay? All this time I've been raving about how cute he is. I'm embarrassed.

[@BsktImp]

This being about biology, I thought there would be more discussion on intersexuality and aneuploidy (including XXY and other polysomies) in, for example, destabilising the oft-quoted axiom of there being an immutable and simple binary taxonomy and designation as either male or female.

[@AreMullets4AustraliansOnly]

@@nedludd3110 Surely the point is that they can't be properly assigned as male or female, so whilst they may be assigned a sex at birth, the way they identify with this sex later in life can change dramatically. I mean surely you're just buying into the binary idea of sex that intersex people cast doubt on.

[@haggissupper7779]

But XXY people are men though, so there's no disruption to the binary.

[@Envision_]

@@thedualtransition6070 the trans flag has become the symbol of science denialism and escapism as it perfectly encompasses neoliberalism and postmodernist ideas that aim to detach the meaning of words from their material foundations

[@AndrewCorser]

Thank goodness for someone (The Dual Transition) who clearly knows something about the science joining this debate - many thanks! ...but also what a shame that their contribution illicits responses (Trans Liberation) that cause them to drop out of the debate because of mis-representation: is this a triumph of belief over reason?

[@Envision_]

@@thedualtransition6070 Yeah, I came to that conclusion not long ago. Neoliberalism is the foundation for transgenderism which is of course just a form of transhumanism as it sees the material reality of the human body merely as an obstacle to be overcome by science

[@Jamie-ro6sx]

Brilliant video very knowledgeable especially for a cisgender man like me to learn.

[@ihavenoname2634]

Everything is stardust, the arguing about Trans I find odd. Twenty years time this argument is gonna seem archaic, why can't people just let people be? Humans are so dumb trying to over complicate and over think everything.

[@Celestina0]

I think the problem with the trans issue is that people don’t want to complicate things at all. People want to claim things are much simpler than they are - men have penises women have vaginas and that’s the end of it. But we know that’s not true.

[@Celestina0]

@@nedludd3110 but you determined your sex without ever knowing the nature of your gametes, so that’s obviously wrong. It was determined based on your genitalia at birth

[@Celestina0]

@@nedludd3110 if I were to say that it wasn’t your gametes that determine whether you’re a man or a woman, but your hair colour, how could you prove me wrong using scientific evidence? If I define a man as someone with blond hair, I’m using objective biological facts about a person to determine their sex, which is the gold standard in your book. So why would I be wrong?

[@enosger]

I don’t think society is equipped for this

[@Celestina0]

@@nedludd3110 right, so I agree we shouldn’t define man and woman by hair colour. It served no purpose. However this decision isn’t based on science or biology or ‘objective facts’. That’s my point. I think trans-men should be included in the category of men for ethical reasons. It is vital for their well-being to refer to them as men, so we should. But any claim that trans-men shouldn’t be included in the category of man can also only ever be an ethical claim. You’ve not got access to some ‘true’ or objective definition that trans activists are denying or deluded about.

[@sheilaroderick9123]

Self-id is the problem. When any man can call himself a woman and enter women's spaces, women's safety is comprised. This issue should centre women and their safeguarding, it is not a trans issue.

[@raygoodspeed2382]

Self id is irrelevant. For decades trans women have been using women's toilets, changing rooms, refuges etc without ever being asked for a gender recognition cert. Most trans people don't even have one. And in any case GRCs never depended on surgery or even evidence of hormone treatment. The self ID panic is just a useful peg to hang existing dislike or disdain for trans people, especially trans women.

[@raygoodspeed2382]

@@xx-my5vh the issue of SELF identify as opposed to needing a medical/psychological diagnosis is irrelevant. Trans people have always "self" identified. GRCs have only existed sunce 2004 and only a few thousand have been issued. They never required surgery or hormone treatment. What you really mean, presumably, is that trans women as such should be excluded, whether medically diagnosed, psychologically diagnosed, or self identified or not. If i am wrong, could you clarify how someone COULD legitimate be classed as a woman who was a physically a man at birth.

[@easytoassemble54321]

And how many times has this happened in the past?. Seeing as it's such an effective ruse, why haven't we seen more men dressing as women, to enter women's spaces? Because, it's not the problem you are making it out to be.

[@easytoassemble54321]

@@xx-my5vh But, they have had access to public spaces (toilets, changing rooms), so why haven't we seen cases of men entering women's spaces in the past?

[@sheilaroderick9123]

@@easytoassemble54321 Because there has always been recourse to the law. After reform, females will be left to fend for ourselves because we will no longer be protected. Trans people will then have more rights than females. I think maybe that's what they wanted all along.

[@ihavenoname2634]

Maybe nature is covering all bases for the species to exist/survive. We are a highly social species so the sex for reproduction isn't that simple, we need as a species to have many social/survival skills and this variety of our sexuality is part of our natural survival as a social species.

[@CurtainRod]

Great interview

[@yesterday1396]

Yes.

[@amandabarrymore778]

Great Podact this v informative Thank you both xx

[@andrewrobinson2565]

My daughter bought a car today in girl mode after work. She was on her own - her fiancée was at work. 👍👍🏳‍🌈. Salesman was the usual ignorant Frenchman, she says. (You pay peanuts 🥜 you get "minkeys", Clouseau).

[@margaretfarrell5137]

Vivre la difference and live and let live.

[@juliewake4585]

It’s as simple as that isn’t it? If only people would let it be that simple.

[@andrewrobinson2565]

@@juliewake4585 It's "vive" la différence.... so not simple enough. My daughter is a trans woman and has a friendly job environment in a multinational electronics company. Vive la différence 🇫🇷.

[@andrewrobinson2565]

+1 to Margaret. You had a go. 👍

[@njs5496]

@@andrewrobinson2565 You mean your son.

[@andrewrobinson2565]

@@njs5496 Oh DO effoff..... Troll 🎣

[@rv706]

BTW There's a ridiculous politicization around the notion of "social construct". Social constructs don't necessarily have anything to do with liberal anything or with relativism. Saying that something is a social construct doesn't mean it isn't objective, just that it is the result of a shared social convention (or social mechanism). Money is a social construct, but that doesn't make it "subjective", otherwise tomorrow I am going to make myself a billionaire by merely subjectively stipulating it.

[@rv706]

*Question:* If a transsexual (say) woman has gender dysphoria, does merely presenting and behaving like a woman (but without taking any medical measure like hormones or surgery) lessen or eliminate her gender dysphoria? OR is some medical measure necessary to overcome dysphoria? The answer could possibly shed some light on whether gender is a (purely) social construct or possibly the consequence of some unknown biological factor (e.g. the result of some interaction between the endocrine system and neuro-physiology).

[@Gab-cd6zt]

nature and nurture are intertwined. imagine living as the opposite sex from birth and how that most likely is uncomfortable for you to live with that incongruence

[@rv706]

@@Gab-cd6zt: ok. Do you have an answer to the question? (even anecdotical is ok to get an idea..)

[@crisscringle]

A controversial, but very helpful discussion. I find it difficult to explain gender concepts to family, friends, etc., who I usually find to be well-meaning but confused about trans issues. It’s draining, and definitely not fun when my own identity is the “example”, but ultimately can be useful. Especially appreciate that it addressed a trans perspective that doesn’t see gender as wholly socially constructed, which I have often felt. I understand the unpleasantness of needing your identity to be “debated”, but there are many good faith individuals out there who are transphobic from ignorance as opposed to some ludicrous fear of being assaulted in bathrooms by faux trans people. When we don’t have these discussions, those people remain ignorant, or worse, they get their explanations from the people most likely to offer them aka TERFs. It’s not… ideal, but I am personally willingly to accept some extra pain in my conversations for the greater good. (Btw I’m not implying other trans people should also feel obligated do this. I’m just saying that the discussions themselves can be helpful for people who are ignorant and genuinely trying to learn.)

[@AndrewCorser]

'aka TERFs'...could you expand on what is wrong with (what you understand to be) TERF explanations? Regarding 'bathrooms': I can understand why a girl or woman, especially a muslim woman, would find it at least uncomfortable, if not scary or frightening, to come across a person in a female toilet who was clearly a man (even if that man identified as a woman). I don't think this is 'exclusionary' - that person could be considered to be being invasive.

[@crisscringle]

@@AndrewCorser I use TERFs to describe those who have moved on from ignorance to rejection and hatred of trans people. That’s where we to start to see the use of slurs, implying trans people are rapists and a danger (like for example that recent BBC article), campaigning against trans rights, etc. It’s one thing to disagree about what is gender, what is sex, etc. I can see why there would be ongoing discussion on the topic, and I’m not including anyone in good faith when I use the term TERF personally. People I consider actual TERFs will for example, equate puberty blockers with hormones intended to help a person transition, in order to paint a false narrative about dangers to children. They may point to previous studies on detransitioning without the context of how gender dysphoria was acknowledged and treated at the time of those studies. They may paint a narrative of transness being a trend and reject other logical explanations for it seemingly “increasing”, insisting that children are being pressured in some way into it. On the more philosophical end, they may neglect to consider what it means that someone can be seen and treated as a woman in this world, even if they are not cis. It seems logical that our feminism should include those who suffer from sexism, which trans women certainly do. It’s one thing to believe or assert some of the above because that’s all you’ve seen, you assume it to be true, etc. But I’m thinking specifically of TERFs who will regurgitate this information even after correction. As for the bathroom phenomenon, I don’t mean women aren’t allowed to worry about their own safety etc. I just mean that the inclusion of trans women in bathrooms has not lead to an increase in sexual assault because unsurprisingly, attackers are not coming out in droves dressed as women to assault women in public bathrooms. For a man who wants to commit a crime like that, there are unfortunately many ways they can go about it which require significantly less effort. I think when we know there is no evidence for a systemic issue, we should stick to that, and not segregate based on our personal feelings, valid as they may be.

[@AndrewCorser]

@@crisscringle You do not address my question, Isabella: I did not say that it was to do with actual assaults (although it may become that if the number of trans people who express themeselves as women increases). Can you understand why women may be unsettled by people who look like men using their bathrooms? I can. And why should they be put through that? There need to be other solutions that are not a zero sum game (i.e. someone (else) has to suffer for trans rights being afforded). You also use the term TERF (a term that was initially coined as a description, not the insult it has become...). I suggest you use it as an insult. I have a corresponding term: InTRA. Invasive Trans Rights Activist. The invasion of single sex spaces, of refuges and prisons, of single sex sport. So a radical feminist may be considered to be exclusionary (even if they argue for safe spaces for trans people) but I suggest that the TRAs (Stonewall, for example) are being invasive. Regarding refusing to medicate minors with pills that have uncertain effects (i.e. puberty blockers, which, I understand, can often include subsequent infertility) as being a TERF action is very strange. This issue is about the rights of children to be nurtured not denatured. How can a parent consent to medication for a 15 year old (or the child themselves make decisions) which could affect the whole of the rest of the lives of that child? If a 15 year old has sex with an older person, they are not considered competent to consent; how can they be able to consent to much more long lasting changes?

[@Envision_]

If you keep calling women TERFs then I'll start calling you trewns. Do we have a deal?

[@crisscringle]

@@AndrewCorser “You do not address my question” You didn’t actually ask a question regarding bathrooms. You mentioned people being uncomfortable, which I acknowledged and understand, and I then followed up by saying when it comes to such things we should use the evidence. There was a time when white women wanted race-segregated bathrooms, because they had their own views and felt uncomfortable, and at the time that seemed perfectly justifiable to (some, mostly white) people. It’s clear to me that laws have a tendency to to be out of alignment with what is morally correct. My philosophy is to get ahead of this curve and overall say “we should restrict people’s freedoms when said freedoms are proven to cause tangible harm to society”. It’s not a trans-specific view, it’s intentionally opinion-agnostic, so I can just follow the data where it goes. There is no link between trans people in public bathrooms and increased assault against cis women. Therefore, we shouldn’t restrict trans women. It’s really as simple as that for me personally. “I suggest you use it as an insult” I do use it as a shorthand for someone that holds trans exclusionary beliefs and intentionally spreads what essentially constitutes misinformation about trans issues. I can see how that is insulting, but again, I personally do not apply this to people who ask questions in good faith. I direct it towards people with large platforms, who ignore the current evidence we have available - whether it be about bathroom bills and sexual assault, the history of gender and sex, puberty blockers, etc - and continue to insist otherwise. E.g. people like Nicki Minaj have access to the top virologists, epidemiologists etc the world has to offer, but would rather spread anecdotes on Twitter that promote vaccine hesitancy. If we swap vaccines for trans people, these are the kinds of people I’m referring to as TERFs, and they are capable of shedding that behaviour at any time. “I have a corresponding term: InTRA” If you have a preferred name for the group of people I described above, who exclude trans people and spread information about them contrary to evidence, I am happy to use it. I don’t gain anything from using inflammatory terms, and that was not my intention. With issues like this, where there are clearly two sides in staunch disagreement, I’m not sure if rebranding on either side will make much difference. Do you support anti-choices more if I call them pro-lifers? Don’t you feel that “pro-lifer” can be morphed into an insult regardless of how positive it sounds, simply because of the connotation and meaning? I’m personally not fussed either way, just food for thought. Re: Puberty blockers… they’ve been around for decades and it would be difficult and tiresome to regurgitate all of the stuff that we know here, especially as KZbin tends to wipe my links… However, if you go to Mia Mulder’s “Puberty Blockers…” video, and check the description, there are several sources in there, which link to papers on the topic and related topics. You don’t have to watch the video, but it is an informative summary of the research and explains why it is typically deemed as TERF action.

[@akpanekpo6025]

Why this so-called debate? Why "debate" other people's humanity?

[@PedanticPig]

I mean, considering trans people have been almost completely shut out of the conversation in the national media, I'm glad Novara is at least giving a platform to some of us who are pushing back against all the vitriol and misinformation present almost everywhere else.

[@BeccaAl]

It’s not a debate, it does mention ‘the debate’ but they are having a conversation here. Michael says Julia Serano is their favourite authors on this subject. I do think Michael hosts respectful interviews/conversations with people, at least they try their best.

[@BeccaAl]

@@adahlialux ok, I see and agree those convos you suggested would be much more humane and helpful for trans people. I do think this content could be helpful to cis people, cornered into conversations with transphobic comments/people. But I also found to the title very clickbaity but that seems to be the YT norm, though I’m not a fan, I’m obv susceptible to it.

[@akpanekpo6025]

@@BeccaAl Sorry, but the fact that you don't see it as a debate doesn't mean it isn't. A four-pronged implement with a handle is a fork whatever other name is given to it. I have the highest regard for Michael, his team and their peerless journalism but they shouldn't fall into this trap.

[@akpanekpo6025]

@@PedanticPig If that's how you feel, who am I to object? Provided you don't claim to speak for other (or most) trans people - which, to be fair, you don't.

[@thomas.alexander.]

Transman, transwoman and all the variations of gender identity are real, and I think everyone should be able to be in the world as they feel most comfortable, but I don't believe a trans-woman is the same as a sis-woman. They are what they are, and when looking at sporting events it is not fair to put a trans-woman (who was formally in the body of a very large, powerful man) in the same events as sis-women. This is the one area where the physical advantages of strength from biological factors must be considered by competition adjudicators.

[@geenah5052]

I'd look at influences that gender affirming treatment such as hormone therapy actually has on physical performance on post initial pubescent sportspeople because your arguments don't really seem to hold up in (admitedly limited data we have, it is an area that should have more research in) unless you're making a purely mechanical argument that certain sports select for specific height ranges or whatever, and at that point what's really the difference between a trans woman who is tall or a cis (it's not spelled sis) woman who is tall

[@raygoodspeed2382]

The video goes wrong because it does not challenge the idea that gender identity (and sexual orientation) are EITHER biological OR a free choice. Something being socially constructed does not at all imply a free choice, and is completely compatible with the sense of deep personal reality that Michael and Julia express. I understand why many feel more comfortable being "born that way" but our rights should not depend on that. And if its genetic - someone out there will look for a genetically-engineered "cure".

[@soniaess28]

Sex is not a spectrum and Mr Serano knows this.

[@WSmith_1984]

This is propaganda

[@ozmainthedark]

I feel like a lot of social problems, at least in America and Europe, relate to an idea of an ideal human. Such a thing is nonsensical in most biological senses. Ideal for what? If you make something really good for one thing it turns out shit at another thing often times. Also why is an ideal individual being strived for instead of an ideal, best result for the species. Humanity thrives in diversity. Why does one individual need to be viewed as worse than another or better than another? Like what's best for a powerful nation is massive amounts of breeding and fighting. What's best for the human race based on the current information is a lot of variants and kindness. Working together stuff. Sorry. Rambling again.

[@kenfalloon3186]

OK. Well done. At least you've confronted the issue. I found Julia's input incoherent and obfuscating, and l sense a shift in your position Michael. Look, l and every other gender critical person l know of really could not be less interested in how anyone presents or expresses themselves. Its their business and no one elses. What we are fighting against is the eradication of biological women as a social demographic along with all the rights their struggle has won for them. My view is that if you think that women should not have the right to female only spaces and sports categories you should check your misogyny. And don't get me started on putting confused gender non conforming children on a path to medicalisation and radical surgery.

[@AndrewCorser]

Spot on, Ken Falloon! I am wondering if my gender critical-ness is about the whole concept of gender: back in the 70's we were challenging gender stereotypes...but now I am wondering what gender is for at all? We have sex, why do we need gender (roles, stereotypes, expression, identity etc)? So you want to wear a dress, or make up your face, or cut your hair short and grow facial hair: why do you have to be labelled?

[@TalynStormcrow]

Now rewrite everything you just said but about race.

[@AndrewCorser]

@@TalynStormcrow ...sorry? Is 'gender critical' equivalent to 'racist' (or, perhaps, 'racially discriminatory')? Is it: gender critical = HOMOPHOBIC? If that is what you mean, could you just unpick that for me?

[@Linz0440]

Very interesting. At one point I spend most of my time with a small number of male friends and no close female friends around. My periods became less regular. A few years later I lived with girls and our periods synchronised. Lots of folk I know have similar stories.

[@jades7260]

For a biologist I'm not hearing anything to do with chromosomes and hormones etc, but more about thoughts and feelings

[@guff9567]

Michael Walker: Life is tough. More for some than other.

[@jackmcnally9237]

It seems clear to me that Julia has balls !

[@samuelhayden4118]

John money just leaving that here

[@susanhayward2063]

Be happy!! I keep coming back to that. Biological and social? Don't know. Happy people equals happy society. Regarding "you have to live with it" thought: no.

[@kelechii7209]

Michael- stop using the terms sex and gender interchangably. It has caused and continues to cause so much confusion in this debate (I do accept most people use sex/gender interchangeably but I think we need to move away from that).

[@MxLee192]

Can't answer this or approach it with cartesian dualisms. It's the huge flaw. It has to be dialectical. It has to combine all elements. Interplaying, reacting, changing.

[@lukeh6790]

Book recommendation for Novara heads: Shon Faye - The Trans Gender Issue. Very political, socialist approach to the issues that trans people face and how to fight them. Intriguing read/listen for anyone that enjoys this channel.

[@glenntilson6509]

Or a trans-male athlete--a concept which has had a LOT of "blowback"...