Geek Rant | Mace vs Sidious - Who Was In Control?

In this Geek Rant I discuss the controversy that is Mace vs Sidious.
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[@iam_darthk]

Personally, I agree that Sidious was in control (as he always was) but I do think that Master Windu legitimately won the lightsaber duel part of the confrontation

[@faceagain5703]

well sidious didnt have his double lightsaber so that could be an disadvantage for him and he didnt focused / rely on the lightsaber duel he is mainly focusing on his force power

[@jojo123853]

Mace has the shatter point ability as well as his own perfected ability to turn darkness on its self, even though skill wise mace is one level below the Sith lord, his bonus far make up for that. The sith lord played into anakin's fear, as a last ditch effort to live

[@Digman2012]

I think Sidious probably had a few "Oh shit" moments during the duel where he was legitimately concerned that he might actually lose. He didn't anticipate Mace matching him in combat or being disarmed. The nature of him being disarmed (he ran away like all hell) tells me that he was unprepared to be defeated in the duel. Throwing the fight or not, you can't keep your cool when facing the possibility of death. I don't think it was until Mace swung to kill that Sidious was truly certain of victory. Anakin wouldn't let him be outright murdered, but even if Anakin failed him, he could have taken advantage of the opening and struck Mace with lightning. Sure, Sidious was overall in control. He was confident that Anakin would come to his rescue, but I think he lost his composure a couple of times during and after the duel. Due to his overconfidence and ego.

[@mider9996]

He obviously lost on purpose.

[@Masteroogway40]

Digman14 I agree with you totally. Sidious was in control as far as the overall plan was concerned he had been planning that for years even decades. He knew, I think, that Mace Windu was better than him at lightsaber combat and he would have had to have planned for that. He would have known that someday he likely would have to face mace Windu and that he wouldn't be able to beat him in a duel so he would have to have come up with a way that he could get out of that alive. So he was in control in the sense that he knew it was going to happen and and he knew what his contingency plan was. He was not in control in the sense of being the dominant one in the actual duel. But Mace Windu came out on top. They were pretty even but Sidious found himself losing his Edge and it terrified him. I think Darth Sidious peed a little bit during that match. He wasn't surprised at the overall outcome because he planned the whole thing, but I think the thought did cross his mind, "if Anakin doesn't show up I may get killed today." Sidious long term planning and master deception were his greatest abilities, not his fighting skills. He just deceived and way out planned everyone else. Sidious crossed all his tees and dotted all his I's. Including preparing for the two duelist who were better than him.

[@tucjdujgfgyas]

But remember Mace says that Sidious' lightning is too powerful for even Vaapad and so if Anakin hadn't intervened or wasn't going to go then Sidious would be full power and Mace would be defeated straight after his other 3 masters. Sidious was not using his full power in lightsaber combat with Mace but with Yoda it is different and he even outmatches Yoda easily with lightning/force powers and lightsaber combat.

[@tucjdujgfgyas]

Count Dooku is a 8 and Maul is a 9

[@bobbybinston]

Daniel McLeod what ? When did mace say the lightning was too strong for vapaad?

[@Strider-Ragnarok]

Darth Sidious was in complete control from Episode I till Episode VI, when Vader pulled a wrestling move on him.

[@AntoineBandele]

Taken down by the WWE.

[@ijonkilledyou6062]

LOLOLOL

[@SakkepyGamer]

Are you sure about that?

[@ghareebcolt3954]

@@SakkepyGamer episode ix Return of the Mack and Sidious

[@asgardninja9674]

Cause what Vader did was totally a wrestling move

[@GreenMarine3]

Mace got thrown....................................... out the Windu :):):):) I'll leave now.

[@AntoineBandele]

Hah nice! *high five*

[@trellified]

+Stormtrooper # 1138 LOL!

[@SpiritLedServant]

lol Well played soldier.

[@meap1022]

HAHAHHAHAHA I CAN'T STOP LAUGHING

[@dar-nakkallig]

Final Frontier you mean Master Window was thrown out of a Windu...

[@1langen]

Palpatine played at a really high risk, but at the end I agree with you

[@ScriptGuider]

Lmao.. "Help me, please! I'm too weak!" .... "PPOOWWEERRR!!!!!!!"

[@finb7102]

Quite the oxymoron behaviour. However, it should be noted that some of that first part may have been played up for Anakin’s sake.

[@asgardninja9674]

So good

[@asgardninja9674]

@@finb7102 Ya think

[@asgardninja9674]

@@finb7102 It would b oxymoronic if you were right

[@swiftstreak98]

"UNLIMITED POOOWWWWWEEEEERRRRR!"

[@blasty137]

In all honesty, I don't think they put so much thought and logic into that scene, I think they just made it to fit their planned outcome. Sidious killing three very powerful Jedi masters right next to Mace within a few seconds is just ridiculous. If he had been that powerful, he should have defeated Mace alone just as easily. Otherwise, it would suggest that Mace himself was also faaaaaaaaaar more powerful than the other three Jedi masters. I always thought that this scene was ridiculous.

[@AntoineBandele]

I am in complete agreement. The whole scenario is a bit of a cluster-you-know-what.

[@GM-oq5hq]

he needed to keep one alive so Anakin could see the assassination take place and make a choice

[@MechaKnuckles]

I agree. Same goes with some other Jedi deaths in the prequels.

[@jordanglasper1064]

Mace Windu was the most powerful Jedi Combatant in the order. All Jedi Knight, Master’ and Apprentice’ knew how strong he was to sum degree. Windu was higher than Yoda in his skill with a lightsaber. One vital piece of evidence is shown in ROTS. Why was Anakin racing with all his speed to to Palpatine. Bcuz Master Windu was gonna him. Anakin knew Palpatine would have said or done somethin to provoke Mace. Even so.. Mace only sought to capture Palpatine, until Palpatine became offended by what Windu’s words. “You have lost!.” This enraged Palpatine to the point he attacked Mace Windu attempting to kill him. “If they kill me, you will have lost any chance to save Padme.” - Sidious. A bit of a paraphrase, yet the point is clearly made. Palpatine knew he would not survive his encounter with The Jedi if he did not have Anakin as his insurance to his survival. If Anakin had stayed in the temple as Windu ordered him to. Sidious would’ve died. How so? The events between Mace & Sidious would’ve played out as we saw. The only slightly different variant. Sidious would not have to play possum in the final moments bcuz Anakin would not be there. Anakin knew, with Windu leading the attack on Sidious, it was likely Sidious would be killed during they’re encounter. I want to make a mental note, Mace Windu refused to kill Sidious even though his fellow Jedi brethren had been slain before his very eyes. Mace only retaliated to kill Sidious once Sidious tried to kill him.

[@CulturalMarxist4985]

@@jordanglasper1064 Mace Windu actually wasn't a better lightsaber duelist than Yoda. This video pretty much sums it up. kzbin.info/www/bejne/m6LNnJicls16i5I.

[@joshdavison6888]

Hey Antoine, think you could do the same thing for the Luke vs Vader fight in RotJ? Try to determine if Vader was holding back, or if Luke actually overcame him?

[@AntoineBandele]

Not a bad idea!

[@joshdavison6888]

+Antoine Bandele :)

[@Digman2012]

+Antoine Bandele I'd like to see something similar for the ESB duel, but rather a specific moment. Did Luke actually get the upper hand in the carbon freeze chamber? Vader was obviously holding back, and he eventually stopped playing around with Luke, but part of me wonders if Luke pushing him hard enough in the freezing chamber made Vader rethink his tactics.

[@Pchel_kek]

+Antoine Bandele Yes. It is good idea. I like to see it! Antoine, please)

[@leehutchison7540]

+Digman14 IMO The times the Vader fought Luke in ESB and ROTJ I get the feeling that Vader and/or the Emperor (in ROTJ obv) could have killed Luke in two seconds either with (Vader's) lightsaber or the Force if they really wanted to. In ESB Vader was wanting Luke 1) To turn him over to the Emperor 2) To use him as a pawn to help kill the Emperor. In ROTJ The Emperor was wanting Luke alive because 1) He could replace Vader 2) Both Vader and the Emperor knew that if Luke did turn then he could help them get rid of the Rebel Alliance. In ROTJ IMO Luke was only beating Vader (lashing out at him, holding a saber lock, kicking him down the stairs) was because he was under the influence of the Emperor (he was more powerful obv here than in ESB but IMO it would be enough to fight and win against Vader and/or the Emperor) as we the audience never truly find out the ins and outs of the Emperor's master of the Force and when Luke was being tortured with the Force Lightning it was a way for the Emperor to keep Vader as his pawn as he could see that he was being slightly turned back. If the Emperor had killed Vader first then went after Luke then he would have been able to convert Luke.

[@strahinjagov]

I didn't even know this was a debate, I only started watching Star Wars recently but it seemed pretty obvious to me that Sidious was in control lol.

[@jojo123853]

Mace has the shatter point ability as well as his own perfected ability to turn darkness on its self, even though skill wise mace is one level below the Sith lord, his bonus far make up for that. The sith lord played into anakin's fear, as a last ditch effort to live

[@fanmovie357]

jojo123853 take away Anakin fear and Windu would have never got his upperhand on sidious, they would have been completely equal, and if we remove anakin altogether from the story Palps would have killed windu right at Min 2:58

[@kingzseventh7017]

How is that obvious! 🤣😂🤣 It's more obvious that Mace was in absolute control

[@CulturalMarxist4985]

@@kingzseventh7017 Didn't you watch the video?

[@johnrubin3147]

@@CulturalMarxist4985 yeah I did watch as well. I've seen these movies dozens of times and I still think Mace won fair and square if Anakin didnt CHOOSE. I think that Palpatine was tired from the fight. I think his force lightning was being absorbed and contained in Maces lightsaber. I think ty hat if Anakin wasn't there, that Mace would have killed him. I do not think Mace was being toyed with..."just to see which side Anakin would take". I think The emperor underestimated that he'd be on the floor looking for Maces mercy looking into the point of the lightsaber. Even in the video it clearly shows that the emperor was DISARMED by Windu. He didn't...let...himself get disarmed. Sorry but if Anakin wasn't there Windu would have killed him. Windu got distracted by Anakin if you recall. Windu told him to get back. Anakin was distracting him. And Maces final death blow would have killed him if Anakin didnt shock/surprise Windu by betraying him by chopping off his hand.

[@IAmMyOwnApprentice]

UNLIMITED POWER!!!!

[@DeAndreJaquess]

Mace Windu is still a badass

[@TheNuisanceBird]

+The BlackJedi Indeed he is.

[@Mike-uf6wf]

True true

[@AntoineBandele]

Yup. Just because Sidious was in control does not retract from Windu's prowess as a combatant.

[@emperorpalpatine7856]

Definitely

[@Khainite]

Darth Sidious is the culmination of a one thousand year dynasty, created to improve each Sith along the way. In many different media forms Sidious is described as the strongest Sith Lord to have ever lived, and is considered by most to be one of THE strongest Force users, behind only Luke (at a later point). Darth Sidious' ultimate goal was the conversion of Anakin to the Dark Side. He was always an actor and a manipulator, using underhanded tactics and strategies to throw his pursuers off and arrange the galaxy the way he wanted it so he could take over. He hid under the noses of Yoda and Windu for many years, able to mask his massive Dark Side aura while right in front of them. He acted as a father figure to Anakin to earn his trust. He was a Machiavellian leader to the Republic. Clearly he's got things figured out. But there are still gambles to take. Not everything is certain. Whether or not Anakin's fears were the result of Sidious' influence, or if Sidious was simply able to see into Anakin's mind, or if Anakin was just that transparent are debatable. What is known is Sidious was going to convert Anakin. If Skywalker had walked into the Chancellor's Office to find Palpatine with a Sith lightsaber in hand, he might not be so eager or willing to help him. Sidious was disarmed at the perfect time, because likely he felt Anakin's presence and knew he would be there shortly. He played the pity card and abased himself before Windu to look weak, pitiful and helpless. Mace holding his lightsaber to Palpatine's throat was like pointing it at Anakin's one hope for saving the one thing he lived for; Padme. Sidious' smile after Windu's hand is cut off is one of victory. He knew in that moment that he'd won, and the risky gamble while fighting Mace had paid off. He played a high stakes game during this fight, and his manipulation of it paid off. Could Mace have killed Sidious at some point? Perhaps, as he was powerful. But Sidious is the greatest Sith Lord to ever live, and while the Jedi stayed stagnant, the Sith had not. Mace didn't really have a chance. The whole fight was played out in Sidious' head before it began. This is a man who manipulated the entire galaxy. One Jedi Master is small time.

[@draconianemanations2785]

Exactly. The fact that Sidious could sense and approaching Anakin Skywalker if you so desired, and would probably actively be expecting Anakin to arrive oh, he probably threw the fight just in time for Anakin to see what he saw. Mace Windu would have been dead same as the other three Jedi, viscidus needed to keep at least one of them alive or he wouldn't have been able to play the victim, it wasn't Mace Windu being more powerful the saved him in the first attack, or the exchange thereafter, it was the Palpatine wanted him to be alive until Skywalker got there.

[@TheCreepyLantern]

Yeah as much as it hurts to say. I don't think Mace oould have ever won alone. only if Anikin had joined his side.

[@PM9193]

Sidious was in control for almost the entire six movies. He only forgot to foresight the love of the chosen one for his family. That was always what drove Anakin, his loved ones. His mother, Padme and later his son

[@AntoineBandele]

That's always the weakness for these grand villains right? The oversight of love.

[@Wand422]

Except he didn't overlook love. He used Anakin's love to his advantage. It wasn't till Luke came a long that he let himself get blind-sided. Possibly an inability to understand that someone once turned to such power as the darkside could be redeemed, or maybe with very few threats to get in his way after he formed the Empire he allowed himself to get more complacent.

[@darthsidious1625]

Of course I let that noob win. :D

[@azsampako2266]

+Darth Sidious He didn't win... :D

[@SolidShepard]

+Кинг Предизвикателство well technically he did win. he just didn't kill sidius.... the perverbial won the fight but not the war

[@azsampako2266]

James Bennett Bro in the video they explain that Sidious was in control the whole time!He could kill Mace if he wanted.But he wanted Anakin to do that.

[@cyber151]

Hey thats some great foresight you have there old spice. Hey look behind you, Anakins back. See you next spring have a nice fall. What happened prophetic one? Didnt see that one coming? Like yodas superior power? Like a bitch you fight and like a bitch you died. Maybe if you traded in some of your ceiling for testicles and actually did some grunt work like prior sith with balls you wouldnt have gone 1-1-1 for a fight card in your coming out party, hmm?

[@kyloren1805]

+Кинг Предизвикателство You do know Lucas said that sidious wasn't holding back

[@TinyTorah]

Wonderfully done, Antoine. This is so needed in the Star Wars community. You've definitely earned your position as one of the best, if not the best Star Wars KZbinr in my opinion. You're actually educating the fanbase, which I love to see!

[@AntoineBandele]

Thanks. I just try to state my opinions as I interact with the lore.

[@ForklifterMatt]

I agree 100%. Phenomenal video Antoine. Perfect analysis, great writing, and great editing. Definitely your best video to date.

[@AntoineBandele]

Thanks Matt.

[@talosisoursavior4015]

3:52 Lol, Mace basically says no/denies the Chancellor 5 to 6 times 1. "She's not the only master" 2. "I didn't study Vaapad." 3. "Sora Bulq was not my student." 4. "And he did not master Vaapad," 5. "With respect, sir, I don't think you do." 6. "I prefer not to talk about Geonosis, Chancellor"

[@sundnido8517]

+Antoine Bandele Indeed Anakin was a 9 and Obi-Wan was an 8. But for Mace It's strange because, Nick Gillard himself said that mace was 8 bordering on 9, and yoda was a 9. (I have the source if you want) Do you have the source for Sidious, I'm interested ? However I think these numbers are more indicators than everything else, to have a good structure about characters's skills, but we shouldn't focus too much on that, it's more a tool than a decisive factor IMO.

[@DaneFalco]

I always thought the fight was staged as Sidious knew that Anakin was coming and he had to show he was weak that he threw the fight enough. Because he was instantly ready to reply with Lightning after Anakin cut off Windu's hand.

[@AntoineBandele]

We have a similar thought process, though I do think he would lose a pure lightsaber contest between himself and Windu.

[@draconianemanations2785]

My thing with people who doubt that is, how exactly do they figure Palpatine wouldn't be expecting Anakin to show up on the heels of the Jedi who had come to arrest him? The Jedi coming to arrest him in the first place was something that Palpatine himself had set into motion, by revealing himself to Skywalker. Why wouldn't he be keeping his senses open and alert for the approach of Anakin Skywalker during the fight, and if he wanted to turn Anakin, to play victim and turn him against the Jedi, how could he have done so if he had dispatched all of the Jedi in that first attack? He had to leave somebody alive, the most plausible would be the most powerful, therefore he left Mace Windu alive and only fought him until he felt Anakin nearing. Once Skywalker was close enough, Sidious threw the fight. Always seemed pretty obvious to me that IF he wanted to execute Mace Windu with the rest, right off the bat, he could have. Didn't serve his purposes. Any pretense that he actually lost was ONLY to dupe Skywalker into thinking the stakes were real and the choice was in HIS hands, rather than in the hands of Sidious.

[@GamingDrummer89]

Something I've thought about with regards to Mace disarming Sidious is this: I do think, based on Mace's Vaapad and Shatterpoint abilities as well as some comments I've read were in the ROTS novel, that there isn't much reason to doubt that Mace legitimately got a good hit in on Sidious. However, I've thought about what would have happened had the same thing happened but if Anakin also had shown up at a slightly later time. I think a very good case could be made for Sidious finding a way to recover and continue to fight with or without his lightsaber until Anakin showed up. The fact that Sidious was able to use powerful force lightning TWICE after falling tells me that he indeed had plenty of power left despite saying otherwise. Even if he lost his lightsaber, he could still have surprised Mace with a strong force push or some other force technique. And if he had another lightsaber somewhere, I'm sure he could have easily gotten it and continued to fight. Great video! I never knew the part about Vaapad being less powerful than the Sith lightning. Interesting.

[@michaelkarimian7538]

Truly this is an unparalleled video. Antoine Bandele you may have finally put to rest a debate that has been going on for years. :) The analysis is perfect all of the points are land right on the spot with perfect accuracy. I always thought Mace Windu won simply because of George Lucas's commentary in the episode 3 movie. Now however my opinion is forever changed. Thank you for tackling an extremely difficult subject of hot debate. Your force potential would surpass even Luke Skywalker. :)

[@qwertsh21]

nicely done :) could you do the same with yoda vs sidious?

[@viewsandrates]

I Second this motion

[@AntoineBandele]

Yoda and Sidious is not as misinterpreted as this match up. They were equals but Sidious was the victor of this match up. But there is another case of different sources depicting certain things slightly different.

[@Randoman590]

+Antoine Bandele I think Yoda "lost" because of the environment. After the energy buildup, his lightsaber fell down the chamber and was lost, and Yoda was in a mental state of despair. I think if they'd fought in a more standard and suitable environment, if could have been a tie or Yoda victory.

[@josiahjenksisawesome]

Yoda Vs Sidious is one of the strangest matches in history. I believe Yoda would win 4/10, Sidious wins 4/10, and the other two are draws. That could just be my opinion though

[@Nesseight]

Sidious only uses lightsabers mockingly, he could have killed Mace with nothing but the Force... Oh wait, he did. Vaapad dabbles in the Dark Side. Sidious IS the Dark Side incarnate. Sidious put on a play for the sake of his interest in the naive Anakin, and when the play was done, he defenestrated Mace in an instant, and would have possibly killed Anakin too had he got over his internal conflict and opposed Sidious. The novelization is wrong. In the movie Mace never truly believed Anakin to be The Chosen One and all of his dialog in the movies reflected that. As a side note, the same is true for the Rebels fight where Ezra and Kanan "fight" Vader. The Dark Lord was never in any danger and was in control of every aspect of the situation for the whole time except for maybe when his forces accidentally caught him in a tractor beam but that was just plot armor for the heroes. If Vader wasn't more interested in "the bigger picture" of a possible rebel alliance, he would have killed both "Jedi" telekinetically. People who don't see this astonish me.

[@ryansullivan6712]

Vaapad FEEDS of the Dark side.

[@cyber151]

Windu was toying with him saber to saber once he channeled vapaad properly, and yoda toyed with sidious before disarming him of his saber. Sidious is an elite Force user, and thats what he falls back on. He chose to engage windu blade to blade, the prophetic sith lord didnt forsee his fate, that he would lose the saber duel, and then he sure was glad anakin was there.

[@cyber151]

No sidious is NOT the dark side incarnate. The 'son' is, and sidious is not the 'son'. The 'son' would crush sidious in an instant.

[@14Schofield]

+cyber151 The Son is no where near the power of Darth Sidious...

[@deandrediggins6936]

your argument gave me ebola

[@victornieves6339]

66 dislikes :O it will be done my lord.

[@sebastianolvera6923]

Best lightsaber analysis ever To: Antoine Bandele

[@Helbore]

I always believed Sidious was in complete control. For one, look at his arrogance in RotJ about his ability to forsee events. I believe he'd forseen all of this, long before it ever occurred. Heck, he clearly tells Anakin that he's a Sith, knowing full-well that he will go and bring the Jedi. Mace may have had a great skill with the lightsabre and he may have had a great knowledge of the future with shatterpoint, but Sidious was far beyond him in seeing the future. He'd planned this event over years. Mace even mentions in AotC how the Jedi's ability to see the future is diminished. Every step of this was carefully orchestrated by Sidious, just the like entire Clone Wars. This was his master plan, finally unfolding. The Jedi, by comparison, were flailing around trying to react to circumstance. They're backfooted all the way through the story and even when they start to think they're beginning to understand what's going on, its actually just because Sidious now wants them to be suspicious. Ignoring all that, from a simple story perspective, its pretty clear the Dark Side was in total control.

[@callumgallacher1663]

how come he didn't forsee anakins betrayal in ep 6 then?

[@Helbore]

Callum Gallacher That's the whole story. He forsees everything right up until the Battle of Endor. Everything, up until that point, has gone entirely as he has forseen. Then BAM! The force turns against him just as Mace said the Jedi's ability to see the future was diminished in episode 2. It wasn't just Vader's turn that Sidious missed, but that Luke would refuse to turn, as well. He also missed the Ewoks and their potential to totally undermine his plans. It is for these very reasons that I believe Sidious was in complete control during Revenge of the Sith (and everything before it.) He'd been perfectly predicting things for decades and every time it worked out "exactly as he had forseen." Return f the Jedi is the climax of the story and where it all goes horribly wrong for him. That's the arc of his character - the villain who is so successful in his manipulation of the future, that he eventually misses the obvious around him. ie. the Skywalkers have outclassed him and he never saw it because of his arrogance.

[@chaseronaldo]

+Helbore Ya I always saw the Ep 6 climax as the unraveling of all of Sidious's plans. He played everyone how he wanted, and his arrogance wanted to turn the Jedi's last hope to his side instead of having Vader kill him in the 5th movie. He may have had his eyes on a young successor rather than the volatility that Vader brought to the table, he just couldn't see Vader as the new emperor in his place. Having a young apprentice rather than the aging cyborg was better in the long run. During the prequels and his rise to power, he did an excellent job playing both sides of the war and playing the republic's fear into creating an army...blah blah blah you guys know the story. He saw the whole thing like you said he told Anakin he was a Sith and knew he would bring Jedi to arrest him, however I am still uncertain even he could see Anakin showing up at the perfect time to put his last mind trick into play. Its just hard to believe every piece of the puzzle fit so nicely for Sidious, but then again...how predictable are teenagers... Lol for how much I love Samuel Jackson and his badassery to beat the muthafuckin sith in the muthafuckin office...Sidious played his cards and took a gamble on his biggest card (Anakin) to come thru for him.

[@Helbore]

Chase Calkins This is the way I saw the fight between Sidious and Mace play out. Sidious used his immense power to cut down the other Jedi fast and then toyed with Mace. There's even a moment in the fight where Sidious has his sabre at Mace's chest and Mace's sabre is way off at the side - a small jab forward would have finished him, but Sidious decided to toy with Mace instead. This is how it played out from each perspective; Mace realised Sidious's power and also saw the dark lord toying with him. He pulled back and regained his resolve. He pushed forth with his mastery of Vapaad to overpower Sidious's attack and then used Shatterpoint to predict the weakest outcome in Sidious's defence. He disarmed him and prepared to end the fight. Sidious understood Mace's mastery of Vapaad and Shatterpoint and used them to his ultimate advantage. Sidious could see farther into the future than Mace and had already predicted this outcome. It is why he let Anakin walk off and inform Mace that he was a Sith Lord. He allowed himself to be disarmed, knowing that he has lured Anakin to the scene. He allowed Mace to intrerpret his biggest weakness through Shatterpoint, because he knew he wasn't looking for a new adversary to step in. In fact, he banked on Mace finding his weakness, purely so he could then exploit that to turn Anakin. It was a fight over who saw the farthest into the future. Mace was able to predict all immediate outcomes and choose what seemed the best. Sidious was able to see beyond that and manipulate the future based on knowing Mace's Shatterpoint choice ahead of time. Mace was fucked the moment he entered this fight - because Sidious never intended to win it with his own sword.

[@chaseronaldo]

+Yusei Shimura lol right?!? these guys just want evil to win

[@Futuretense101]

Sidious planned the whole conflict out, start to finish. However, this duel was never about defeating his enemy directly. Sidious sensed the time was right to begin the final part of his plan. Anakin was the final piece of the puzzle and the key to the Sith's grand plan. He knew without Anakin, all was lost. He was there to "support" Anakin when the Counsel wasn't truly supportive. Sidious knew there was conflict, sorrow, and rage in the chosen one and he used his friendship with him to plant the final seed of destruction into the fate of all. He could have killed Windu by himself but he wanted to see if Anakin was ready to turn... By putting on one hell of a circumstantial show. And this is why he's my favorite villain of all fiction. Not because of how powerful and sinister he is, but his intelligence.

[@MastaKilla63]

I think Mace was in control when he had Sidious disarmed, but when Palpatine couldnt get him with force lightning, he started manipulating the situation in order to turn Anakin to his cause. Palpatine manipulated the situation in order to gain control of the encounter. Mace was in control first, and then Sidious gained it. That's what I think.

[@LightingbladeShen]

Palpatine had control... But if things had only been slightly different, the outcome would have been totally different

[@AntoineBandele]

If Mace did not have his amp, or Anakin never showed up so Mace could use his fear, or if Sidious wasn't overconfident ... yeah ... it would have been different.

[@LightingbladeShen]

Antoine Bandele and that's why facts are so much more interesting then people who fall prey to the Syndrome of Fanboybias XD

[@TheMan-so9do]

+Antoine Bandele sidious is always over confident it comes with his character. also windu didn't need anikan's fear sidious had an infinity amount of power mace can draw from.

[@marsuvesblack9645]

+Kuriboh Dude, he said Sidious could have easily killed Mace at the beginning of the fight

[@marsuvesblack9645]

+Kuriboh But how is that Dooku can beat Mace and Mace uses Vapaad

[@fatalferocity6659]

I think that at the end when Sidious was disarmed no one had control at best it was 52 - 48 to Sidious until Anakin walked in it was completely equal between Mace and Sidious and all depended on Anakins next move. when Sidious went bitch mode it was an educated gamble which then put mace in control when the lightning stopped. If Mace decided to agree with Anakin and arrest him Anakin would have helped and the Jedi would have won. Mace lost himself the fight by trying to kill Sidious there and then. Sidious gamble paid off in a big way.

[@NorfolkSouthernES44AC]

Fascinating video. I feel you hit the nail on the head with all those points, especially where as Mace is swinging his blade right before Anakin cuts off his hand I never noticed that before but Palpatine is ready! Like you showed @ 15:42 Palpatine is ready to shoot some more lighting at Windu in case Anakin doesn't intervene. And I've got to say, Matthew Stover does a tremendous job with the novelization of RotS, so dramatic and such a dark vibe thru out the book!

[@AntoineBandele]

I LOVE Matthew Stover. LOVE him.

[@KurokamiNajimi]

I'm sure you know by now Palpatine's voice actor confirmed he threw the fight

[@ollielast5077]

And George says he didn’t.

[@KurokamiNajimi]

@@ollielast5077 George said “originally” Mace won and Sidious playing dead was something he added in later

[@mcb8573]

I think that Sidious underestimated Windu which is why he lose the lightsaber fight. He let it go on for too long when he should have killed Windu at the very start. But while Windu won the lightsaber fight he would have lost anyway due to Sidious’s lightning.

[@DB6195]

VERY WELL DONE! Not only the points themselves but the way you phrased and emphasised their context was masterfully done I could tell you were VERY heavily measuring your words when you recorded this and it paid off I'm curious how many times you rewrote or rephrased this one. Quite a few I'm sure VERY WELL DONE......AGAIN!

[@AntoineBandele]

Thank you. And yes, I was *VERY* careful with my wording with this one. I have been writing and re-writing this for the past month.

[@DarthBatSam1234]

I aggree wih you. But just because Sidious was in control doesn't mean that Mace couldnt have won, a fight can turn in a heartbeat.

[@AntoineBandele]

Exactly, mate!

[@babysinclairfan]

The fact about this battle is that we will never know who would've won. It was close enough that Anakin's intervention decided the winner. In terms of power, Anakin and Obi Wan were probably about even because their force pushes cancelled each other out and the fight dragged on forever. I'd say that sidious and Yoda were about equal. I give Yoda a slight edge, but it wasn't enough to kill sidious.

[@mikereds2997]

Its like maul getting chopped in half by obi wan he toyed with him to long Sidious could have killed mace imeaditly but that would have put Anakins rage in the wrong direction not what good old pPalp wanted so he prolonged the fight eventually being disarmed which i think is the only moment mace had control if he had struck at that moment he would have won due to a special set of circumstances otherwise Sidous was in full control be for and after that moment

[@cultofmalgus1310]

Antoine you've done so good man, you've come so far with these vids. This was an amazing take on one of the most controversial fights in Star Wars history. Keep up the amazing work, you're gonna go places in life!

[@AntoineBandele]

Thanks dude.

[@justsomeguywhokeepsgetting4885]

He tried to throw the fight but he underestimated mace windu by far. At the end he was actually losing however if sidious pulled his true force powers mace is dead. Sidious was confident that he can survive a lightsaber duel against windu, but against yoda he immediately resorted to his force powers

[@lyinxfrost9677]

I'd love to see a discussion like this regarding Yoda vs Sidious. I genuinely am curious to who is actually better because the outcome was not conclusive. It seems the fight only ended because of Yoda's positioning rather than a lack of power/skill.

[@williamhenning4700]

Yes! Somebody finally stated it. I've always believed that Anakin's fear and Sidious's boundless hate were simultaneously empowering Mace. :) Admittedly I had never considered that Mace's own powerful emotions might have been amping him too.

[@AntoineBandele]

Oh yes. Vaapad does not work simply as a super-conducting loop. You got to have your engines revved up first, and you have to be pretty powerful yourself to not let the darkness touch you.

[@williamhenning4700]

Antoine Bandele This will definitely be useful knowledge in my future debates. Now I can send people 2 links. For both Silver's post and your video. :)

[@johnnyscifi]

Palpatine...the whole time. It was all a play, for Anakin's soul...;)

[@123kenny20]

Would it of made a difference if 4 other masters went against the dark lord? Or if 8 went?

[@twicejaeger6997]

With Yoda And Obi-Wan help Sidius would be quickly outmatched

[@stivenburg]

Sidious had control with the four Jedi due to space along with the element of surprise. He doesn't take kill shot at Windu when he has his sabre pointed at his chest because his arm is completely extended. He might have been able to lunge forward. But that could have put him in a bad position. Nobody was in control at that point. The two were then evenly matched until Mace had disarmed Sidious. The fight continued after Anakin entered the room. Mace then overpowered his opponents force lightning attack. Although that does not necessarily mean the fight was over at that point. Sidious, who could have continued to fight, used the situation to convert Anakin...

[@Pun1Sh3r_360]

I thought it was obvious that Sideous was acting after all theatrics were useful in his uprising as chancellor. Do you honestly believe he would risk the success of his plan in a petty duel. See when he faced Yoda he actually attempted to retreat because he knew Yoda was a legitimate threat and he tried to disguise his fear by making self patronizing remarks about his new apprentice.

[@AntoineBandele]

Right. Sidious didn't really fear Mace but he certainly did Yoda.

[@raultejada2588]

I think it can be stated like this, Sidious went into this fight not fearing Mace the way he feared Yoda, but Mace sure as hell gave Sidious a reason to fear him after it all went down 💁‍♂️ Mace proved that he was on Yoda's level without a doubt in my eyes

[@getmepaid2day653]

this channel needs way more subscribers.For two days now I've been hooked on these star wars vs series videos they are in my opinion the most in dept and unbiased on you tube.Good job man.

[@AntoineBandele]

Thanks bro.

[@UnifiedEntity]

Reason those 3 jedi were killed was probably cause of very very very poor writing.

[@AntoineBandele]

^ This.

[@johnzmasta]

+Antoine Bandele I Agree With This Statement.

[@rockyperez6668]

well done. 100% agree Mace did a great job fending off Sidious to his ability. but in the end, Sidious was in control. I think that Yoda was more powerful, even by a little against Sidious. He pushed back Sidious force lightning, and you can clearly see the fear in Sidious face when it happened. of course, because of the circumstances of the fight, Yoda smaller size, flew back farther from the blast and was injured. In the novelization, Yoda saw a vision during the fight. He knew he wasn't going win, because it wasn't his place to do so.

[@AntoineBandele]

Right. Yoda was destined to lose that battle ultimately. I never really saw it as him losing due to lack of skill, but because any victory would have been futile ultimately.

[@novachikun]

So I guess an easy way of seeing Windu vs Sidious is kind of like Gold Frieza vs SSJG Goku? Windu's temporary rise in extreme power was like Frieza's when he achieved Gold form to match Goku's level. Windu and Frieza both suffered the disadvantage that their extreme surge in power was not the level of power that they were accustomed to, whereas Goku and Sidious had the advantage of obviously being used to using and sustaining those levels of power. I suppose that's one way of explaining it. :P

[@TheNuisanceBird]

On the note of Vaapad, would Darth Maul give any thing for Mace to feed off of? Mace and Aayla face off against Maul in SOD. Maul seems to outclass Aayla and stand toe to toe with Mace. I think Maul's rage filled offensive could supply Mace with something to feed of off.

[@starwarsfan-ye9hw]

one thing i want to throw in right here which is a lil bit off topic: i say darth maul is the best LIGHTSABER DUELIST in all movies. so not talking about force and overall power cuz he was only trained as an assassin. plagueis was killed in the year of episode one so maul was barely a sith lord and he defeated two of the greatest jedi of all time. i d say if he would have become a true sith he might have gotten more powerful than sidious.

[@azronger7214]

Yoda, Sidious, Dooku, Vader and Windu all outclass him as a duelist. He's on par with Obi-Wan and Anakin.

[@TheNuisanceBird]

+Azronger Anakin is a 9 while Obi-Wan is an 8. So is Grievous. I'd say TCW Maul is a mid tier 8. TPM Maul is about on par with ROTJ Luke.

[@starwarsfan-ye9hw]

ok it was stated on wookiepedia (i swear, but its gone now) that qui gon could duel with windu on equal terms. and it is mentioned by lucas once that obi wan is totally underrated cuz of the loss to dooku which was because of the constellation of techniques in that situation. he won vs anakin and anakin himself mentioned that obi wan is as powerful as windu. remember i m not a fanboy at all, i m just analizing star wars material. i assume when u can defeat qui gon and obi wan in seconds u have to be in the conversation of being the best DUELIST. Not talkin bout FORCE USER.

[@azronger7214]

Qui-Gon isn't on the level of Anakin, Obi-Wan, or Windu. Maul didn't beat Qui-Gon in seconds. What the hell are you talking about? Maul can't outduel Obi-Wan, Anakin, Mace, Sidious, Dooku, Vader, or Yoda.

[@MonkeyKingEric]

I wasnt too sure but after watching this, consider me convinced. Especially the point with the sith lightning.

[@kevinramos4101]

I Agree with this all XD ( Windu Fanboys = Haters gana Hate ) Darth Sidious was the real winner, Sidious could have killed Mace easy if he wanted to but he have other plans ( Anakin ).

[@ravenkrofft]

+Kevin Ramos You clearly didn't watch the video...

[@tomfou]

+ravenkrofft You're the one that didn't watch the video XD. In the end it's pretty much what Kevin said, pretty much...

[@trenchcoatlouis6455]

99 takes the win.

[@Foolsdust2034]

A marvelous breakdown. Absolutely splendid. In regards to Sidious' face, "A Master Chess Player knows Which piece to Sacrifice, and When" -Dan, Dan vs.

[@ravenkrofft]

In summary, Mance won the lightsaber duel, but lost the overall fight

[@AntoineBandele]

I do think Mace won the actually lightsaber fight, but I do understand that it's debatable because he gained his advantage through Anakin's shatterpoint, not Sidious'

[@xavierhall185]

You should know that it was really Palpatine's "promise" to save Padme that tipped Anakin on his side

[@bradleyhudd515]

I really think Mace might have went down as quick as the others if it had been other circumstances. what do you think?

[@AntoineBandele]

Not sure honestly.

[@thefub4226]

No. People downgrade Mace. That said I think Antoine I'd a good job. But no. Mace was said to be the second beset Jedi of the time. And is considered to bed a better dfuelusdt by many. He outdueled Sidious. But as he didn't kill him, he might of lost to his With lightning. The circumstances for beating Sidioous would always be the same. However, Anakin not being there would've surely prolonged the fight. And maybe Sidious couldve outdueled him @Antoine, Lucas's said Yoda was a 9

[@thefub4226]

Forgive typos, typing non a tablet sucks

[@xavierhall185]

I would have to agree. Great commentary

[@AntoineBandele]

Thanks Xavier.

[@xavierhall185]

Anytime!

[@xavierhall185]

Who would win? Darth Malgus vs Darth Vader

[@peola630]

+Xavier Hall Darth Vader

[@xavierhall185]

Possibly.

[@killoreo]

Totally agreed. Very good reasoning. Great job!

[@AntoineBandele]

Thanks.

[@OpticalSparkz]

Wow.... personally i always felt loke wimdu would end Palpetine at that point but..... you prove me wrong, Nice Work Antoine!!

[@AntoineBandele]

You mean the lightsaber slash that Anakin intercepted? ... Yeah, Sidious never seemed in danger to me, especially when his feeble powers returned in the next second.

[@OpticalSparkz]

+Antoine Bandele yup... noticed that while watching, i never really thought about it :P

[@ismailmainor9598]

like in any fight of master martial artists I think there were ups and downs to who was in control. Sidius ultimately won because his planing and prep was better. That was Mace's first encounter with the full power of the dark side. With his shatterpoint and Vappad I think should Mace survived the battle and were to fight Sidius again the result may be different. I think that Sidius's largest advantage was his knowledge of the his opponent. Sidius was a master strategist who knew his enemies like the back of his hand threw years of planing and precognition Sidius had a plan for every outcome. Mace who is also a master strategist had just reialized the full scope of everything. So I believe that in a rematch it would be a true toss up because Mace would be as prepared as Sidius and it would come down to the little details of the scenario.

[@crazyscotsman9327]

+Ismail Mainor Very well reasoned, because Mace while he has dueled Darksiders before, he never fought someone on the level of A Sith master, Mace if they had a rematch may be possible of defeating him.

[@CulturalMarxist4985]

I honestly find this video far more informative than the Star Wars Theory one.

[@omnitool1586]

Yep. Welcome to the quality of this channel. It's not about getting a quick upload out ... it's really about examing this stuff deep.

[@justsomerandomguyonline2784]

Omnitool Exactly. Just look at the comment section for Star Wars Theory and Stupendous Wave's channels. Usually at the end of their videos they do a lightsaber giveaway contest . So the comment section is full of nothing but fans begging for what colour lightsaber toy they want, rather than having interesting discussions with other folks. Its pathetic really

[@TheS0VA]

Before I watch Sidious was in control hands down.

[@AntoineBandele]

Keep on watching ;-)

[@TheS0VA]

Antoine Bandele Loved hearing your take on this subject! Even learned some stuff I was informed about.

[@donbarzinitut]

In some ways I think when Sidious started to shoot the lightning he thought he'd be able to completely overcome Mace, but because of Mace's ability with Vaapad he was able to direct it back to it's source, thus surprising Sidious. As this happened he ramped up the intensity ( while claiming to Anakin he was weak and frail). This both strained Mace and Sidious as Mace had to push harder on his lightsaber to keep the lightning and his own lightsaber from going into his face and Sidious was using all he had and was dealing with the same intensity going straight back at him which was burning his face ( and was definitely painful). I think Sidious had to break off because he was literally too tired to continue and needed a small rest bite to regain his composure. But when he did again shoot lightning he'd had enough time to gather his energies and recover to shoot high intensity lightning.

[@JediNetherly]

Mace Windu , Lucas said so himself. Sidious just knew how to turn things around.

[@trollgod4911]

I don't they these guys care about that. They just want to say sidious won so they will make up anything they can to twist the event.

[@SGbro92]

+Kira Is God Yoda isn't the strongest. In the movie, Anakin said "as wise as master yoda, as powerful as master windu." yoda has greater knowledge of the force, mainly a force user whereas when it comes to Saber combat mace windu owns everybody else.

[@SGbro92]

+Kira Is God you do know that George Lucas said that mace windu overpowered sidious in the revenge of the sith commentary track right. mace windu is one of the most bad ass jedi ever, only to be undone by the traitorous Anakin.

[@SGbro92]

+Kira Is God you yourself stated that they said yoda is stronger than mace in the episode 2 commentary. so there is a possibility that mace might have equalled or even surpass yoda by the time of episode 3?

[@SGbro92]

+Tan Ansel an analogy would be just because you're a 3 times gold medallist doesn't mean another competitor couldn't beat you in the next Olympic meet.

[@callmev3531]

What I found interesting was that while the Jedi had fought in the clone wars, they did not have much experience fighting other Force sensitives, especially those of Sidious’ caliber. They had mostly fought against blaster wielding enemies and in the case of Fisto, fighting General Greivous, who highly effective at killing Jedi. However, there do not seem to many instances, at least not prominent ones, where all the Jedi in that room fought a Force sensitive. Windu, however, is shown in various canon and legends material as fighting Force sensitives below the level of Sidious, such as Ventress or in the case of the 2015 Canon comics, Darth Maul himself. This makes Windu lasting longer than his colleagues a bit more realistic.

[@DraculaCronqvist]

Windu never stood a chance. It all went exactly according to Palpatine's plan.

[@austinbundrick3192]

I think that both were evenly matched, but when Anakin arrived in the building, Sidious threw the fight, just to manipulate Anakin further.

[@AntoineBandele]

We are in agreement there.

[@darthwrath4887]

It is confirmed in some sources that when Sith lightning hit Sidious face it revealed the true face of the Sith Lord and that for years Sidious had cast an illusion of some sort to hide his true face.

[@AntoineBandele]

I've not seen these stated in a concrete sense in sources, only illusions of it in novelizations.

[@JLoC.2479]

Anyone who knows swordsmanship knows that when he pointed his blade and mace leaves himself open is a common ploy to gaud your enemy into striking at that point while u parry for killing blow . that is not Palpatine having an opening its sword for"c'mon i dare you"

[@caos1925]

on that little side note of his face, he also said in the senate when being made emperor "The Jedi's attack on my life has made be disfigured dis-formed..." playing the pity card against the galaxy.

[@AntoineBandele]

Oh yes, Sidious knows how to manipulate. You have to if you want to be a political of that stature.

[@fadadioX]

I was always under the impression that when Anakin cut off his arm it gave a huge surge to the dark side and powered up Sidious and in his excitement he exclaims his new unlimited power from the Chosen one switching sides, I still feel that way but great video

[@BigCats867]

the revenge of the sith book is much better then the movie.

[@AntoineBandele]

Way better.

[@GrimReaper-en3vl]

+Antoine Bandele Are you guys for real? Or just joking?

[@GrimReaper-en3vl]

***** I was never crazy into Star Wars like that so I guess thats why I don't understand

[@crabman7025]

I loved you.

[@chris.awilliams7138]

Nice set of arguments, well presented and reasoned. One thing though witht he idea of Sidious throwing the fight to win sympathy, Anakin was only interested in joining the dark-side in order to gain the power to create life with which to save Padme (which is why Sidious told him the story the of how Darth Plagueis could create life). This then meant that the dark side needed to appear strong so as to make Anakin believe that it did indeed lead to this power, especially as Padme was heavily pregnant at this time, he would have known that if he were to try and learn the power to create life he'd only have a few days in which to do it. Bearing this in mind, if Sidious had appeared weak it may have lead Anakin to believe he was not capable of saving Padme, in which case he would have had no reason to save Sidious, as his only desire to save Sidious came from wantitng to save Sidious, remember Anakin staits that "he must stand trial," admittedly I don't know what sentence Sidious could be handed to Sidious but unless anyone can find an explicict statement in the books to the contrary I would judge it fairly likely that the sentence for orchestrating a galactic civil war costing billions of lives is almost certainly death. This then means that Anakin feels no mercy towards Sidious, even when seeing him so scarred from his fight with Windu, he only wants him to be spared because "I need him", even Sidious knows this, begging for Anakin to save him because "I have the power to save the one you love." For futher evidence supporting the idea that Anakin was only saving Sidioud so that he could then teach Anakin how to save Padme, see the withering look of hatred he gives Sidious when he walks in on the fight, the fact that when Sidious first reveals himself Anakin draws his lightaber and almost attacks him, and fact that he tells Windu that Palpatine is Sidious, surely he knew when doing that the first thing Windu would do would be to go straight to Sidious to arrest/kill him. I think from this then it can be fairly assumed that Sidous would not try to pretend to be weak, as Anakin would only want him around if he was strong. It then follows that if Sidious was not pretending to be weak, he must actually have been weak at that point. It would also explain the undignified manner in he scurries along the ground away from Windu after being disamred before Anakin entered, watching that, I genuinly got the inmpression that Sidious thought he'd screwed up and gotten himself killed, and remember at this point Anakin had not yet entered the room, meaning there was no need to act in that moment. You also pointed to the momment after Anakin chops off Mindu's hand, and Sidious regains strength, even boasting "unlimited power". I think what happened then was that in the moment Anakin cut off Windu's hand, this caused a significant shift in the balance of the force (this was the moment after all that 'the chosen one' chose dark over light), and it was this shift that gave Sidious that momentary boost which allowed him to through Windu out of the window, this would also explain why in the next part of the scene his voice sounds different to how it does at any other point in the series, he is literally drunk with power (see also the way he appears to me to be a bit shaky, although feel free to disagree). You could also support this theory with the fact that after cutting off Windu's hand he is suddenly short of breath, when literaly all he did was swing his lightsaber. In summary, Windu won hands dpwn, Anakin only wanted Sidious for his power, therefore appearing weak when faced with Windu would only have turned Anakin against him, therefore when Sidious appeared weak it was him actually being weak, not pretending, and then when he threw Wind out of the window it was because of a surge in the force, not his own strength. Thank you for reading for taking the time to read all of that, any of you who are still reading, I just hope I've not made any spelling errors or grammatical mistakes. If I have then please to moan about it in the replies unless the error genuinly prevents you from understanding what I mean, having said that feel free to like or dislike as you see fit, and leave comments on what you think (just be polite). Once again thank you.

[@Jake-cy7to]

in my opinion sidious didnt knew that anakin was coming, mace won by desarming him, sidious tried to surprise attack him with he's force lightning but mace blocked it and used it against him. THEN when anakin is there sidious realises he can use anakin to win and THEN and ONLY THEN he start acting as if he was weak and old. but if it wasnt for anakin in my opinion windu would have won

[@alexgreen9431]

First of all, I must say that I love this video. It gives a balanced analysis that I have found to be lacking in other debates about this fight. However, whilst I agree with the majority of your points, I believe that Mace Windu knew that this could be his last fight. He knew that Vaapad would assist him, but I think he feared the power of Darth Sidious. However, as the fight progressed, it appears to me that Windu grew in confidence, which in turn bolstered his Vaapad technique, bringing him closer to the level of Sidious. And I must agree with your point about Windu using Anakin Skywalker's fear. Shatterpoint is a double-edged ability, Windu could not know who's fear he felt, only that it bolstered him. By the end of the duel, it is my opinion that Windu's power had become the equal of Sidious', and that without Skywalker's interruption, the fight would not have had an end.

[@engared]

Trying to explain bad writing by Lucas. Kudos man; kudos.

[@AntoineBandele]

Ultimately ... that's what all this breaks down to. Poor writing, poor choreography.

[@engared]

+Antoine Bandele Great work though! Keep it up! You're a miracle worker. Hahaha

[@seanwatzitooya6094]

+Antoine Bandele I disagree. It's good writing that it was left so open to interpretation. For the uses of people that make versus fights, probably not so good since you guys need hard facts. But that whole thing would've been ruined if in the movie Sidious just says "I'm far more powerful than Mace was" at the end of the fight. It's left open to interpretation so that you can draw your own conclusions: "Was sidious overwhelmed or was this all part of his plane?" You'll never know definitively, and that's what makes it good. But, as you've shown with this video, there's enough evidence for those who care to look to give you an answer. Most people aren't going to go searching for that evidence, but it's there for those who will. Neither the writing there nor the choreography was subpar.

[@engared]

Sean Watzitooya Its so dense; every single image has so many things going on...

[@martingamer5591]

Good analysis Now I want Kota Vs. Scourge!

[@infinitesheldon5710]

You did a fantastic job with this, Antoine! I couldn't agree more with the points you brought up. I am rather curious how it makes sense for Mace to use Anakin's fear in order to defeat Sidious, when Anakin at the time wasn't in any way directly involved with the fight, but I guess there are plenty of things in Star Wars that are tough to explain in a way that makes perfect sense. Anywho, as far as I can tell, you pretty much broke down this fight perfectly! Bravo, man! I'd love to see more Star Wars fights given this treatment some time.

[@AntoineBandele]

Windu was essentially leeching off of Anakin's fear without realizing it. Anakin was riddled with fear that something terrible would happen to Sidious, and by extension, Padmé. Anakin stunk of fear the moment he stepped into the building. It would be interesting doing this with other fights. People still seem to think Obi-Wan outfought Anakin by skill alone,, and people take Luke's fight with Vader out of context. Heck, folks even claim Obi-Wan as a "true" victor over Darth Maul in "The Phantom Menace." If there is interest in this sort of thing perhaps I will do more stuff like that in the future.

[@infinitesheldon5710]

Antoine Bandele I totally get that Windu was leeching off of Anakin's fear and all. I'm just trying to picture how exactly it affected the fight in such a way to allow Windu to disarm Sidious. I suppose I'm just trying to think far too technically about it, that's all. And as far as other fights being broken down like this, you've definitely got my support for it. At least, for some of the more highly debated fights such as the ones you mentioned. On a somewhat unrelated tangent, I couldn't help but think that such a breakdown would also be a perfect chance to show a visual demonstration of how exactly the different lightsaber styles work, and why they work in that way. By this point, every fan knows "Shii-Cho is good against multiple opponents," or "Soresu is very defensive," but I've noticed that a lot of people don't seem to grasp *why* Shii-Cho is better against multiple opponents than a single foe, or *why* Makashi has such a great advantage against other duelists. Breaking down a fight scene-by-scene would be the perfect chance to go more in-depth about the mechanics behind the different lightsaber forms.

[@Szeptful]

Not bad Antoine. But you made a one mistake: you should use at least a 4 more sources. Movie should be the first, the most important source. Secon should be Lucas' own interpretation of that scene. Then novelization and comic book. We need to use TCW, SW: ROTS: The Visual Dictionary and Databank as well. So lets start: 100% agree about beggining - Mace was unable to prevent the death of other Jedi. Sidious was too strong at that point. But also, Sidious couldn't speed blitz Mace, if he would choose him as first target - according to Lucas, Windu could at least "compete" with the Emperor (he was compering Mace's performance to that of other Jedi; that doesn't mean of course, that they were equal). So, the fight continue. You assumed, that Sidious could kill Mace, when his lightsaber was very near to Mace's chest. I disagree with that, for me it's just a bad choreography. There is nothing about that in book, or comic. I also doubt that such mastermind as Palpatine would underestimate Mace. So the fight continue. Palpatine is able to push Mace onto wall (comic as main source, somehow confirmed by the book, and there is no contradiction with the movie, since in that moment we probably see Anakin on the screen). The fight continue. Palpatine's face suggest us that he's uneasy. He's forced to retreat, when he tries to attack, he fell onto his knee. Mace is able to "disarm" him. But: - ROTS movie suggest, that Palpatine had two sabers. - ROTS novel sugest, that his sabers were hidden, and he took just one - TCW retcons that part of novel, since Palpatine used his sabers before, it's doubtful that one of them was still hidden Conclusion? Palpatine wasn't disarmed at all. More then that, as you pointed, he was other weapon then just a saber: the Force. Now a few words about their goals: - Mace wants to save the Order and Republic - Palpatine wants Anakin - Anakin wants save Padme. Mace decided to arrest Sidious, that would mean that he will be stripped of his political power (for a while at least). It wont be long till jedi will find a proofs for his crimes (Labirint of Evil somehow cofirms that). Sidious will be alive, so it's ok for Anakin (in fact, it's a best option for Anakin, since he doesn't wanted to betray the Order (he revealed that Palpatine is Sidious after all, he wanted him to be arrested). But that situation wasn't OK for Sidious. So he decided to push Mace to his limits. He used Force lightning to provoke Mace. And he reached his goal. Mace was pushed to his limits, Sidious power was beyond Vaapad (as it is stated in novel and comic confirms that). We don't see that in the movie, but Lucas himself stated, that "this part when he (Sidious) pretend to loose his powers, was womething we added later" (or smth like that). Either way Mace was overhelmed or/and Sidious was faking his weakness. But the key to this sequence is what happened after Palpatine stopped to use his FL. Mace should have declared again that Sidious is arrested. Nothing has actually change. Sidious confirmed that he's beaten, and Mace had Anakin on his side. But, Mace sank too far into Vaapad, and his dark side overhelm him (his face, words and decisioin suggest that). "Victory flooded through Mace's aching body. He lifted his blade - You Sith disease" Also his arguments from the movie: "he's controling the senate and the courts(...)" Well, he knew it from the start. But only at the very end of fight he decided to use that arguments. He was clearly blinded by the dark side. When he was calm, his decisioins were quite different. SW:ROTS: The Visual Dictionary also confirms that Palpatine was "unmasked" by Force lightning, and Sidious' face was his "true face". My verdict? I agree with you, it's clear that Palpatine was holding back at the end of the fight. He never was't disarmed at all, and he could just overhelm Mace with his Force powers. When you fight someone who is equally skilled with you, you can dodge his Force attacks (Kenobi vs Anakin, Luminara vs Ventress). Obi-Wan wasn't able to dodge Dooku's attack though. Perhaps Mace was unable to do that against Sidious TK too. What can be state for sure, is that Palpatine's FL was beyond anything that Mace could do. Even Yoda wasn't able to block it with a saber, and had to deflect it by the Force (at that point we have a lot of notions that Yoda was superior Force user and duelist to Mace). But was Palpatine holding back during lightsaber duel? I would say: yes and no. Sidious decided that Mace's presence is necessary; Anakin had to choose. He already shown as, that he didn't want to kills Mace. I guess, that it wasn't different during lightsaber's duel. Palpatine gave 100% of himself and tried to not be defeated by Mace, but he didn't try to defeat him either.

[@1998rks]

Please analyze the fight between Yoda and Sidious. Yoda should have won! Great vid btw

[@azronger7214]

No analysis needed when it's stated in the novel that Yoda lost.

[@ju2tic3]

+Milin Patel Yoda knew he had lost right after sidious knocked him out

[@jimbob1862]

+Azronger The problem is the script states they were completely equal and that it was a stalemate, contradicting the novel.

[@starwarsfan-ye9hw]

+jamal munir script and movie always over novel. novel always got third party input. movie is exact lucas vision.

[@azronger7214]

It doesn't state they were equal. It says Yoda disarmed Sidious but doesn't go into any detail about the outcome. That's where the novel comes in.

[@HyugaBlood881]

that was a very well put together vid and it was simply awesome the points u made were great and it made sense thanks to this vid I will no longer question who was in control u helped settle the issue for me thanks Antoine and peace,love and may the force b with u always

[@AntoineBandele]

And may the Force be with you.

[@starwarsfan-ye9hw]

there is one big logical mistake in it. u say sidious played possum to convert anakin. but why did he first threw lightning at windu with the words "no u die"? he seemed very confident to beat windu with it at that point. that acting thing was a complete desperation move. of course he wanted to take control of anakin but in that scene first priority was to kill windu. and concerning all that sidious always planned everything bs: why the hell did he try to flee from yoda when he is so effin OP? why did he need to kill his master while sleeping? he was a strategic mastermind unmatched in that category but he is overrated concerning his fighting ability. the power increase in the final burst was because he knew he finally had control over anakin, which was of course his overall goal. and please rewatch: in the moment windu tries to hit sidious he winced his hand in fright infront of his face.

[@jimbob1862]

+starwarsfan1919 Sidious was on the cusp of becoming Emperor when he faced Yoda. In the film's script it is stated Yoda is his complete equal and even fought him to a stalemate. Considering Sidious' very precarious position right then, fleeing from the only one able to defeat him was a very smart choice.

[@starwarsfan-ye9hw]

+jamal munir yep thats exactly how i saw it. i was referring to all those who comment like sidious was to overpowered for yoda and toyed with him and bs like that. but i dont agree with yoda being the only one who could beat sidious as to me windu still beat him(check out my other posts on that).

[@ralphmouth6772]

+starwarsfan1919 Windu wasn't going to kill him at that point...he was going to take him into custody. It wasn't until the force lightning that Mace said he's to powerful to live and decided he must die. Rewatch the scene.....you know it be true. The lightning was to provoke Windu, so Anakin would decide.

[@starwarsfan-ye9hw]

+Ralph Mouth ppl say sidious played possum to turn anakin and you say he provoked windu to turn him. so what is true now?

[@starwarsfan-ye9hw]

+Ralph Mouth pls explain

[@TheSunStudio1]

I agree your points fully! You should do a Yoda vs Windu vid in the future.

[@AntoineBandele]

Easy. I would just insert videos of Nick Gillard, Samuel L Jackson and George Lucas all saying Mace is second to Yoda.

[@arrowonthespot2284]

+Antoine Bandele lol done

[@TheNuisanceBird]

Isn't Yoda > Mace a Star Wars fact?

[@sundnido8517]

+Antoine Bandele What could be interesting is not if Mace could beat Yoda (we know he is second to Yoda) but more if he could put up a good fight, as you did in your video Anakin VS Luke (the outcome was predictable but you did it anyway). After all we have seen Dooku vs Yoda in AOTC, and Mace is stated to be Dooku's equal, just for that it would be interesting to see how he would fight him in that context even if we know that Yoda IS Mace's superior and would win. For the spirit of sport ! Wouldn't it be a good idea ?

[@peola630]

I agree with most of what you said except Windu legitimately defeating Sidious. I personally say that he waited for the right time, as like you said it was to convenient that Anakin walked in right as Sidious is down. Also Sidious underestimating him seems plausible, but really look at the situation. Sidious had the upper hand and could kill him whenever at the beginning. However I find it unlikely that Sidious woudl underestimate him after they had a saber lock and Windu had a serious face. After that they were even. The novel I belwive says Windu senses Anakin isn't far away and is coming. With that wouldn't Sidious also sense it? Thus connecting that and him falling right when Anakin walks in.

[@AntoineBandele]

That is certainly plausible but George Lucas' own words contradict this.

[@Zaron_Gaming]

dude! epic as ever! I agree completely. I always thought sidious allowed himself to be disarmed to go with the weak man idea but your point on shatterpoints affects is spot on

[@AntoineBandele]

Yeah Sidious was legit disarmed imo

[@lilprincekilla]

Mace Windu struggles against Asajj Ventress.....yet defeats Sidious. But Ventress struggles against Dooku, who's considered greater than both Mace and Windu. The logic of Star Wars is becoming more and more obscured......

[@AntoineBandele]

You definitely said it. But it's also because canon does not align, especially the old EU canon.

[@lilprincekilla]

Antoine Bandele It's a shame there's a lot of things I clearly agree with you on. But the minor things I disagree on are the ones I disagree with hard. Either way, keep up the great work. Love watching your versus videos, the ones without the Harry Potter characters that Trolls and random people like to suggest.

[@tonywright9906]

Mace Windu did not struggle with Ventress or Dooku, they struggled against him.

[@Orto-jj2di]

Mace won the fight, but lost a war to Sidious. Conclusion Anakin's role in Palpatine's duel with Mace Windu is far too convenient for it all to have happened by chance; on the other hand, the events are far too complex to have all been planned out. Although there's been no official answer, the truth is probably a balance between the two: Palpatine, an expert manipulator, set up a situation to his advantage, then reacted to the unpredictable elements with excellent fighting skills and quick thinking.

[@narutofan4545]

Yoda kept up with Sidious in a duel, and Mace is a better duelist. Sidious lost the battle.

[@AntoineBandele]

Mace is factually not a better duelist than Yoda.

[@TeemoForLife]

+Antoine Bandele mace is a better dualist Yoda is a better force ability

[@TeemoForLife]

+Teemo4Life force user"

[@samlasley798]

Where is the still that appears at 0:36 from? I'd really like to know

[@AntoineBandele]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/aaTLYXmXfrOblaM

[@samlasley798]

Thank you! Love your videos man, more KOTOR would be appreciated though ;)

[@desoyx]

Sidious won! Mace is not good enough

[@hrregrg1952]

One thing im not seeing in your video and details that are missed is that Palpatine has 2 light sabers it was a choice to use one even if mace had bested himhe also had a cover story prepared for both scenarios and had a spare saber prepared if vader attempted to strike him down instead of mace

[@trellified]

Nah, I think Sidious was simply a coward. He didn't throw the fight as a method manipulation, he was pleading for his life as a coward. Once his surprise lightning attack didn't work against windu (causing sidious more harm than windu) he pleaded for his life and he knew he was done for without Windu's mercy or Anakin's assistance.

[@biglex8275]

i agree but tbh Sidious couldve won if he didnt underestimate mace but oh well thats sidious fault and in the end he ended up losing the duel because its simple mace over powered him and george lucas the creator of this entire universe (which is also canon) said it himself too sooo idk whats hard to debate about

[@tushargupta311]

You know who won the duel George. Lucas

[@AntoineBandele]

Truer words have never been spoken.

[@tushargupta311]

+Antoine Bandele thanks

[@brentpieczynski]

Oppression with being like Sidious or desiring to eliminate all of those traits have some room made for it when someone is dead. This is from, applied sorcery, so that spirit is pulled into the body to take it over.

[@MrAmericanMapper]

One Hundred Percent Agreed! Anyway I do have a couple questions, When will Rahm Kota vs Scourge come out? and is it true they made swtor not canon?

[@AntoineBandele]

Everything that was released before 2014 (except for movies and Clone Wars TV series) is considered Legends. Kota and Scourge will be out when it's out.

[@MrAmericanMapper]

+Antoine Bandele DISNEYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[@warriorsgates]

Kinda weird that Lucas said mace won outright and you guys are still arguing?? 😐

[@AntoineBandele]

comicvine.gamespot.com/profile/silver2467/blog/mace-windu-vs-darth-sidious-what-really-happened-r/77247/ Scroll down to the section about Lucas' statements.

[@warriorsgates]

I have the film and art book- of all the hollywood actors Samuel Jackson is Lucas best friend. The article is a waste considering the creator said he re-filmed that scene because he wanted it to be clear Mace Windu won the fight. Thats what the guy said who wrote it. I'm sure Lucas doesn't put as much thought into it as you guys. Which is why Anakin dominates Dooku and loses to Obi-wan. I have no dog in the fight... but when the guy who wrote it said Mace won... how do you go against that?

[@drwfigureadventures]

Mace: Eventually defeated Sidious in the duel and deflection of force powers. Sidious: In control of duel and the outcome. He may have been outdone in the duel, but it’s the control that allowed his victory.

[@midknightfalconfan]

Mace won the lightsaber duel but Sidious won the fight. While they were almost equal in lightsaber combat with Mace having slight edge in the end, Sidious was superior to Mace in force ability. When it comes to force ability, Yoda and Sidious were in a league of their own above the next tier which would likely include Mace and Dooku. Sidious' force ability is the reason Yoda sent Obi-wan after (pre-suit) Vader instead of Sidious. While Obi-wan might have held his own for a while against Sidious with a light saber, he was no match for Sidious' force ability. Only Yoda could combat Sidious' force ability. Yoda and Sidious were the two strongest force wielders in the Star Wars universe at the time. They essentially fought to a stale mate and Yoda realized he didn't have the power to defeat Sidious outright. I'd rank them something like this: Force Ability: 1 - Yoda / Sidious (Tie) 3 - Mace / Dooku (close...not sure who is higher) 5 - Obi-wan, Anakin/Vader (at the time of ROTS) Light saber abilities: 1 - It's splitting hairs between Mace, Yoda, and Sidious 4 - Anakin/Vader 5 - Dooku 6 - Obi-wan

[@trollgod4911]

Then what category does that put plagues in?