My KENJUTSU is WRONG?

#kenjutsu #samurai #antonycummins
The discussion in this video is based on the documentary, This is kenjutsu
• THIS IS KENJUTSU - Sam...
Please follow the information in this video and remember that this is about getting closer to the original, not who is right and who is wrong.

[@AntonyCummins]

ATTENTION ALL This video is about seeing how to get closest to the original, not who is right or wrong. the key is that none of us are doing it the way the original was done, but we hope that we have come the closest so far. if you want to help me, then please get a copy of the Book of Bushido www.amazon.com/Book-Bushido-Complete-Samurai-Chivalry/dp/1786786052/?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_w=ouwYX&content-id=amzn1.sym.9119971c-28e7-426d-b1df-798ac36bb5cd%3Aamzn1.symc.e5c80209-769f-4ade-a325-2eaec14b8e0e&pf_rd_p=9119971c-28e7-426d-b1df-798ac36bb5cd&pf_rd_r=AD145JXJS0T8TBW8DEPP&pd_rd_wg=9dG0J&pd_rd_r=943f0f86-da81-42c1-85df-6d6beb2d231a&ref_=pd_gw_ci_mcx_mr_hp_atf_m

[@iidabashikarate]

When is the original you say? Kamiizumi Oyakata? Seki Shusai Shihan? Nyounsai Shihan? Munenori Shihan? There is clear documentation that it was conceived, compiled, and changed during the time of the above mentioned Shihan. There are also many elements that were not changed during the compilation period. There are several Shinkage-ryu organizations today, and while they differ in some aspects, many of them share a commonality with respect to important elements. For that is the soul of the style. And your techniques do not have it. I hope you will learn the traditional techniques and philosophy in the dojo. If that is not acceptable, then you should create a new ryuha that you will found. I think that would be very wonderful.

[@michaelrizzo5523]

I can't begin to count how many "traditionalists" I've encountered who can't accept that their art has changed in any way after multiple generations of teachers and practitioners. If you really want to start a fight, what Musashi seems to be describing in Go Rin No Sho doesn't strike me as what modern Niten-Ichi Ryu practitioners are demonstrating. You only have to look at the current differences between different schools and instructors of the same (in name) tradition/lineage of any martial art (and then they'll fight over which one is doing it wrong). What you're doing is pragmatic, recreating what's in the the texts functionally like a HEMA practitioner would, so it both faithfully matches the original descriptions of the masters and actually works. So: Keep it up!

[@AntonyCummins]

Thank you very much. I totally agree on the Musashi thing

[@TheCCBoi]

Two problems with that thinking - I idea that you're interpreting it correctly (how is your interpretation of the text anymore valid than others - especially when the other (Kubudo schools) has centuries of transmitted knowledge, context, decades of training/sparring that help further contextualize the combat manuals), and second combat manuals often aren't reflective of reality (anybody who has served in the military will tell you the exact same thing). They present an idealized version of training - they're not what Musashi would have actually done. You can see this in any competitive environment, often what the teacher teaches - is not what they actually did when they were a competitor.

[@stevebb2915]

man puts video demo on the internet, people say its wrong. just another day.

[@CraigAB69]

When you finish the Yagyu book it will be very interesting to see the changes in the scrolls over the years. I suppose people's interpretation and recollection of what they were taught over the years causes the variance in the scrolls. Especially if they write a scroll after the master has passed.

[@saikuron]

Awesome work on translation och reconstruction. Looking forward for more to come. I'm really appreciating you kenjutsu videos. 🙏

[@jasonfarmer5193]

Great video and comparison that really illuminates the differences!

[@traveling47]

I'll have to catch up and check out the documentary. I'm looking forward to this book when it comes out.

[@NinjutsuBujinkanDojo]

There are important transformations in the form of fencing throughout its development. I see that these concepts that I am going to mention end up mixing with ideas or possible "Recreations of the Past". These concepts would be Kaisha Kenpo (Fighting with Armor), Suhada Kenpo (Duels with Boken), Kaho Kenpo (Flourishing or emphasis on artistic representation to maintain tradition). Kenbu (Dance with Sword) Gekken or Kendo that are linked to aspects of the "Game" and This also changes perspectives a lot, etc. etc. In other words, everything implies Why? For what? Where or in what situation? It's not that simple, saying this is right or wrong. We are still faced with a big puzzle. We need to be very careful with our imagination and on the other hand listen carefully to what some "Masters" say about the fencing of the past. For example: "Martial arts are something deplorable, we just need good armor, good physical conditioning and good breathing" Chronicles of soldiers from the Takeda Clan. "The Armor was not made to protect you, it was made for you to go towards the enemy without hesitation" It's very different. Video is very interesting from a technical point of view, but what is it about? In my opinion, and due to several characteristics, this is Embu. Or a living fossil, as a Japanese politician called it when referring to the artistic manifestations of the Koryu.

[@Student_of_history]

Historical interpretation, is exactly what you say, our 21st century best guess of an historic document. Loving the videos

[@Dvergenlied]

People get so stuck on “My system is the best!” that they often miss the real question, as you said, is “Ok, this is different; when did it change any why?” Good work with a great team, Antony, and keep it up.

[@tochiro6902]

Thank you very much, that's the challenge of the whole thing because if you only have pictures it's difficult to understand the technology as it originally was. But I'm in good spirits

[@TheRogue144]

Followed you for years brother, Hope you are well. Good to see you're still making videos. :) Cheers

[@AntonyCummins]

Keep watching 🙂

[@roycehuepers4325]

3:03 It is like comparing an English longsword and a viking longsword. Principles might be similar but a tachi and uchigatana are two different weapons. Ones for war ones for self defense.

[@henrikaugustsson4041]

Vikings didn’t have longswords. I think you might be using fantasy game terminology, just call it a sword instead. A longsword is typically meant to be used with two hands, during the Viking era that was basically impossible, due to the way they constructed their hilts. The thick pommel on the end was for stopping the sword from gliding out of the hand during a swing, and the grip itself was made only so wide that you could fit your hand around it. I’m sure you know all this, just being pedantic.

[@MelancholicHiraeth]

generally speaking, even amongst various yagyu shinkage ryu branches there's variation in blade work and foot work amongst the kata. There's also been changes in the curriculum itself such as the distinction between naiden and honden, and the addition of the gaiden. If you look at the scrolls that show the enpi no tachi, the scrolls have different starting places than how the enpi no tachi is performed today. when it comes to the ogi no tachi of shinkage ryu, the shunpukan isn't the school I would go to to see the most accurate representation of the forms. I much prefer the marobashi-kai of yagyu-kai. On the Ogi no Tachi in general: The forms themselves seem to be abstract than technical, even more so than previous forms, so I'm not opposed to the idea that they're changed even in a drastic manner insofar as the underlying principle is remained intact(that said I would of course prefer if it was for the sake of the technical work described). To give an example katsuninken isn't so much about where you strike or how you strike or this technical work or that as it does with the way you would approach combat in itself. This is why in the form you maintain suigetsu, draw the opponent out, and cut him down. The shinmyoken in this case is even more esoteric, to the point that I'm hesitant to say a form can even get close to expressing its meaning. On Kojo: Yea the way it's written is rather strange, I've read william scott wilson's translation, thanks for the commentary on the translation, it really helped me understand your interpretation of the form. Generally I've considered this in light of modern performances to be about achieving the overbind in a critical moment where your initial strategy and all your deceptions have failed, hence you need to abandon everything and cut the opponent down. On Gokui: When it comes to cutting from behind, this, as I've understood it, typically means to cut the right side of the opponent, not actually striking their backside. I do think this is still relatively intact in regards to the marobashi kai and yagyu kai versions. On the Shinmyoken: yea i have no clue lmao for marobashi's version of the ogi no tachi here's a link if you're interested: kzbin.info/www/bejne/eXzOoJh5jZh-pac I do really wish we had some kind of modern commentary on the heiho kadensho and the forms/curriculum from the people who teach shinkage ryu, it's rather infuriating to try to scrounge for information on the web in regards to the style. I wish I could talk to someone who's thoroughly learned the style and its history and just ask a laundry list of questions. Edit: So you're talking about some books you found, the one that costed 400 pounds, please tell me if you're going to make a translation of the writings within these texts. I'd love to give them a read! Also, do you have your own translations on the e-mokuroku of this published anywhere? I'd also like to see you and your translators' commentaries as well.

[@christopherflynn6743]

If its from the 1700s i would have to really question its merits... This is the issue i brought up years ago and used military Field manuals as an example. Just because its written doesn't make it so. The base of it might be accurate but on a battlefield the field manuals just about get tossed into the dumpster. Things get changed unit to unit person to person and they change dramatically week to week month to month as warfare continues.

[@RodCornholio]

Primary sources. Expert translations. Expert historians analyzing. It's always a best guess. Always. Even today you can look at military "by the book" manuals, then hear real soldiers talk about how they ACTUALLY fight - often close to textbook, but not identical.

[@-RONNIE]

Well of course swordsmanship has to evolve but it's a great foundation to look at all the older material & then modify it to your own style or today's standard practices. Thanks for the video & keep up the good work 👍🏻

[@brunod8578]

Yours work on research is awesome! How much effort did you put out on it? Only passionate will know it!

[@AntonyCummins]

A lot of time. Almost two years

[@jhl3653]

Anyone in JSA who doesn't spar has nothing meaningful to offer in a conversation about what is "correct" or "incorrect." Period.

[@alittlepuertoricanboy1993]

They do if it's the ryuha that they're studying.

[@user-lq2yi8op7w]

And anyone who believes that sparring is a good substitude for actual battlefield experience (what the Ryuha try to convey by means of Kata Geiko) has no clue what they're talking about. The founders of the Ryu already pressure tested the validity of their techniques extensively in real life and death situations. And following generations further pressure tested these principles either in duels or friendly matches and refined them. So there is no need to make up your own stuff (like Mr. Cummins) or to assume that your limited sparring experience can compare to the achievements of actual warriors from the past.

[@TheGoodInquisitor]

Kneeling is possible done to demonstrate the use of the body weight on the vertical axis to control and determine the opponent to unbalance. If you observe, there are techniques from Yagiu that are very close to Aikido internal working. They are demonstrated in some japanese videos about Yoshinkan Aikido by a master. The effects are rather counterintuitive. If you want I can search for the link

[@AntonyCummins]

The point here is the original text describes something totally different

[@FunkyBukkyo]

This is probably one of the few instances that changes to a style were documented

[@outerlast]

is it possible that the public demonstrations are different from what you would learn when you become a formal disciple? because i remember something similar with katori shinto ryu, the ones we see in the video are the basics, while when you go to their class directly, gradually they teach you the additions, modifications, etc of those basics

[@AntonyCummins]

I will talk about this

[@outerlast]

@@AntonyCummins looking forward to it :)

[@TheWasteOfTime]

Yes. Embu is embu. Keiko is keiko.

[@GermanSwordMaster]

The kojo, both the traditional understanding and yours, are both viable, both work and both do exist in german and italian systems. First is a simple cavatione or durchwechseln and snipe on the wrist. Yours is a bind, and as in longsword; if hes weak in the bind, be strong and vice versa and use the advantage gained. Very basic. Very useful.

[@ramonbmovies]

I laughed when Antony said, "Why would two people attacking each other decide to bend down together?" I'd have the same question. Like Antony said, the traditions change over time. The modern way of doing it takes more than 300 years of experience and societal change in mind. And before that, in the early 1700s, it was changed based on 50-100 years or more of experience. Each time there's a change, the technique improves for that time period. Today, we don't need or use swords in real fighting, so you get what Antony showed as the modern archetype, vs. what Antony showed as an interpretation of the 1700s archetype. But both are correct according to their time in history. Very interesting.

[@iidabashikarate]

There is a clear reason why both appear to sit. Also. I understand that times change and change, but there are still some factors that cannot be dismissed. If you change that much, it is already a different school. I think it is wonderful to create a new school with your own unique ideas. However, changing something traditional into a new style with your own interpretation is wrong. This video discusses okugi no tachi, but there is one major theme to this series of videos. Although the word "kuden" appears at the end of the text for each technique on the scroll, you will learn several times more information than is in the text through direct training with the teacher. It is difficult to learn that from text and video. If you want to learn the real shinkage ryu, please go to the dojo. Those who have doubts about the traditional style are free to train without adhering to this style. However, in that case, please do not use the name of the traditional style for business purposes, as it is a new and different style.

[@canadafree2087]

Western duels had such rules. If you shot first and missed with your pistol, you didn't run away, you stood there to see if the other's guy shot held true. Same with swords, if you lost your sword you might be given time to pick it up, or if drawing first blood ended the duel you might still get a slight poke or scratch to complete the rules of the duel even though you have been disarmed.

[@blackswordshinobi]

In this when swords cross side out an cut down on the back of the neck the next one as your enemy run to you deflick the sword cut out side of the rwist or the ccokta or could do the back all these acttck counter attacks is good

[@Dan.50]

Watch the "Dog Brothers" gatherings... That's how it really goes down. You can practice backflipping windmills of death kata all you want, but when your life is on the line, you just start swinging. Add bladed weapons and fingers and hands being loped off and it all goes out the window.

[@TheCCBoi]

Great video, but my main issues with HEMA is that anyone who has served in the military will tell you that combat manuals are often nowhere near what people actual do. They are designed thru censuses and committee - they are often there to instill a core soldiering/fighting concepts and are more theoretical than 100% practical (even though there are practical elements in them). You receive practical training from your unit and local leadership (their job is to link the practical and theoretical). To put this in terms non-veterans can understand - what you learned getting your bachelor’s degree is often radically different than what you learn when you actually start working at your first job/company. I think current styles are probably what samurai actually did in combat - since they can teach variation away from leadership (based on their actual combat experience) and I think your first example (Kojo) proves my point. Looking at your recreation - the Samurai wore neck and throat protectors - deflecting and attacking the back of the neck would probably exact very little to no damage to their opponent (because they have armor there). Meanwhile, the wrist is a small target and had little protection against bladed weapons - which is what the current version of the kata targets (other Kubudo schools target the same location). Both variations teach how to deflect, but one is clearly more practical against an armored opponent - while the other is a idealized version against an unarmored opponent. I still think the work your doing is great for historical purposes, but it shouldn't be seen as something closer to reality than current schools - both are fine in their own unique ways.

[@JorgeUribe]

It will be published... YESS!

[@henrikaugustsson4041]

Antony does the best research, I don’t doubt his word one bit.

[@maktiki]

Why not change the hand position? it seem in alot of scrolls and art Samurai are seen holding the sword with two hands touching.

[@AntonyCummins]

Yes I agree with that. Will do that.

[@TheRogue144]

Thanks!

[@AntonyCummins]

That’s brilliant thank you.

[@spartan-s013]

Great video again. However it seems that not every Scroll is represented correctly by your students. Not a Big fault, they just lack combat experience.

[@AntonyCummins]

It’s more about getting the sequence correct. That’s first

[@spartan-s013]

@@AntonyCummins fair enought, as 311 i follow everything

[@mastermcelona]

So... Let me pre-frame what I'm about to say by saying that I'm a Korean Style Martial Artist... most closely resembling Tang Soo Do,. I currently hold a 6th dan, and I've been training for 33 years. While that's my true experience, and area of expertise, I've always had a love and fascination of anything samurai... so while I'm not completely ignorant of history, and technique... I have ZERO formal training in supposed samurai arts or Japanese swordsmanship. OK, that being established, I find it interesting that all the 'haters' out there like to comment negatively about the brilliant research that you do. I would just like to make this comment just as a fellow martial artist and observer... When seeing the comparison side by side of each version of this sword style, you can of course make arguments as to which version is the authentic version... I suggest that this recent translation and the ensuing demonstration of the techniques are dynamic, aggressive, and brutal... regardless of whose feelings get hurt because it's not the 'correct' or 'official' version. I say "WHO CARES!" The presentation of the techniques you've provided are exciting and look fun to practice, and most likely encapsulate more accurately what samurai fighting actually looked like... (as you have mentioned) Just based on the raw way it's presented... the highly ritualized way we normally see it portrayed is likely NOT accurate when compared to how it was in the late Sengoku period. As I've stated previously, I train in a Korean Style of Karate.. If I were to choose a sword system to add into my own training... this 'new' translation you've provided seems like a more realistic (if in the event we went back to fighting with swords) and productive way to train in the kata outlined in the text. Great content as always. Sorry for the long comment.

[@AntonyCummins]

Great comment. Thank you very much.

[@tennoakahi]

Whos the original Yagyu you mention here? It can't be Sekishuusai if it was in the 1700's.

[@AntonyCummins]

Please watch my documentary this is kenjusu it’s all in there

[@KamiSeiTo]

You're doing an amazing work, with the research and also with those very didactic videos... But gods! Your choice for the short music introducing the kata are terrible! 😂

[@AntonyCummins]

That’s from the original Japanese video not me lol 😂

[@KamiSeiTo]

@@AntonyCummins OK, that's one more proof they're not doing things right. 😂

[@Kurichan42069]

For those only reading the title long story short...The answer is yes

[@TheShurikenZone]

I mean... Especially in this comparison video, you seem to make a solid argument. All the usual apologist lines will be offered up, naturally, but at the end of the day... your argument should be hard to really dismiss.

[@bartitsulab]

Well done Ant! Kroll #62

[@AntonyCummins]

Cheers Kroll.

[@Jiko-ryu]

高上とは打太刀より中の清眼にてかゝる時十字に付を見込なをさんとする所を分目向上と万事を捨打落 口伝 Kōjō is when your opponent attacks from a direct chudan position, swords are crossed, and you wish to correct the situation. Perceiving this to be moment of crisis, you abandon everything and strike him down. An oral transmission.

[@AntonyCummins]

Thank you.

[@Jiko-ryu]

極意とは打太刀より中の清眼獅子の太刀のことくにおつとりつるくと用捨もなくかゝり入時活人にかまへ懸るやうにして右の足をひらき折しき左の足をのべ て下に居るとをしてうしろよりしたゝかに切勝 口伝 Gokui is when your opponent takes a direct chudan position, wields his sword like a mythical lion, and attacks smoothly and without any hesitation. Take up the Katsunin posture, step out with your right foot, and take up a lower position by kneeling with the left foot extended. Let him pass by and defeat him by striking him from the rear. An oral transmission.

[@Jiko-ryu]

神 明剣とは打太刀より活人にかまへ 候時相位におつとりつるくとかゝるとき打太刀極意とはつひしらき候を付てまはり太刀を胸板におしあてゝ両足の間へ左の足を踏込はたらき候へは膝にて打太刀の膝を押付ひしく也 口 伝 Shinmyōken is when your opponent takes up the Katsunin stance and you do the same. As you attack smoothly, he will open up, trying to avoid you with the Secret Principle. Turn with him, pressing your sword across the broad part of his chest, step in between his legs with your left foot, bring your knees against his, and flatten him by pushing him down. An oral transmission.

[@Jiko-ryu]

@@AntonyCummins You are welcome. Here's the link to the online copy of the Yagyū Kenpō Kyojyō (Licence of the Yagyuu Scool of Swordmanship): mahoroba.lib.nara-wu.ac.jp/aic/gdb/mahoroba/y01/yagyu/index_eng.html

[@Jiko-ryu]

@@AntonyCummins Supposedly, according to tradition, the way the Okugi-no-tachi is performed now was based on the modifications by Yagyū Hyōgonosuke and later refined by Yagyū Renya when he reincorporated Empi and Nanadachi. By then, there was a sort of "cold war" between the Edo and Owari lines, so it is assumed that the modifications were done by the Owari line so as to surprise the Edo line, and it apparently succeeded when there was a match between the Edo and Owari lines. Yagyū Munefuyu "was defeated in a single stroke by Yagyū Renya Toshikane (fourth headmaster of the [Owari] Yagyū Shinkage-ryū), who had previously fought, before Tokugawa Yoshinao lord of Owari, over 30 duels without being hit. It is said since that time, Owari Yagyū and Edo Yagyū broke ties." That is supposedly why the modern Yagyū Shinkage-ryū does it the way as modified by Yagyū Hyōgonosuke and Yagyū Renya.

[@Lucasmagalhaes-vg5ox]

shinkage ryu is still alive don't need to reconstruct it... a famous Araki ryu teacher once found a Katori shinto ryu manual and tried to reconstruct the techniques from the manual... then, he realizes the reconstructed techniques resembled araki ryu... because his background on araki ryu influenced it... when he saw shinto ryu's demonstration, the reconstructed techniques were still being practiced by the shinto ryu students... and those techniques were completely different from those Araki ryu influenced reconstructed techniques...

[@tonvanderborst4639]

This video does not answer my question at the previous video. This is only an answer to why your translation is better than the current interpretation. Therefore, the video only raises more questions. I would be happy to discuss those with you just not here. One thing I do know for sure. If the samurai attacked like they do in your video then this school would have been extinct long ago. Shitachi's attacks are of a very poor aikido level. How can you expect realism when attacks are wrong and have no sense of timing and distance? Your shitachi misses on purpose to enable the technique.

[@AntonyCummins]

You are missing the point entirely even the other translations show the lines in existence today do something different. So the question remains the same. Why are they different. The Japanese is on screen for you if you do not like our translation

[@tonvanderborst4639]

@AntonyCummins In my opinion, I do understand your armument, but you don't really understand my point. You are so focused on your search for what is (in your view) historically correct that you are missing an important point. You are trying to show that what is written in ancient scriptures is different from what is practised in a particular school today. You are trying in a scientific (what you mean by scientific) way to get to the most original form. I do understand that. Only in the whole discussion, there is also such a thing as common sense. In all the kata reconstructed by you and your team, there is an important error. A mistake made in many gendai and koryu schools, and indirectly something that your research also questions. Uchitachi's attacks make no sense at all and are done as if to enable the technique. Without research, I can tell you that your team's attacks are not realistic. With that, any courter technique performed is also unrealistic. This problem largely stems from the lack of realism by the kata forms. That would be precisely something you could tweak if you were starting from scratch. With unrealistic attacks, any reconstruction is pointless. Unless the samurai trained and fought in a ritualistic form with attacks that were deliberately miss-hit. I think in your fanaticism, you have a blind spot that prevents you from seeing the real point. With all due respect, of course.

[@black_eagle]

On a tangential note, is everything OK with you? You're looking a little rough, and in general seem to have aged a lot in the past year or two. Sorry if this is too personal, just my observation.

[@AntonyCummins]

I’m working on building a barn and writing books and doing a KZbin channel. It’s a lot of work.

[@josephstewart1562]

If you honestly study the sword, your description and explanation sound totally reasonable. Everything changes. Look at handgun techniques over the last 50 years. Warriors evolve. It’s what makes them warriors.

[@AntonyCummins]

Yes that’s a good point

[@TheWasteOfTime]

I find it very conspicuous that in yer translations ye omit the fact that all these descriptions end with "this is an oral transmission." Almost as if Matsudaira himself understood the deficiency of the written text and that these techniques needed to be learned in person to actually be understood. Now, granted I wrote pretty much all of the following in the comments of one of the previous videos, but the points still stand. The whole conceit of this project betrays a fundamental lack of understanding about what the classical bugei are, what they do, and how they're trained. The fact that ye keep hammering on about "the text, the text, the text" demonstrates that yer completely missing the point. Koryu bugei, ESPECIALLY Shinkage Ryu, seek to teach a series of principles about how to approach situations and these techniques are vehicles by which those principles are expressed. What ye've got here is not Shinkage Ryu. I'm not just saying that (just) because what yer models are doing here is technically wrong, but because what they are doing is not what Shinkage Ryu does. These demonstrations are bereft of the underlying logic by which Yagyu Shinkage Ryu operates. By focusing on arbitrary mechanics which, to be fair in the case of Matsudaira, were not written for the purpose of being instructive, ye've missed what these techniques are doing. In my 24 years of training in Yagyu Shinkage Ryu, I've learned at least half a dozen ways of doing pretty much every technique. When ye train in koryu, this will happen. Ye'll learn "the kata." Ye'll learn "the other version of the kata." Ye'll learn "here's how the kata used to be done." "Here's how the kata used to be done when guys were still wearing armor." "Here's a version of the kata with an adjustment that I want ye to do because I want ye to work on something specific." And so on and so on. The important thing is the principle the technique is trying to express and how it can be applied under various circumstances. Because these principles are part of the aforementioned "oral transmission", they're not something yer gonna get by reading a scroll (most of which were not meant for outsiders anyway) or watching a video. Ye've got to train it in person with someone who knows it. Even the things yer to using to base this stuff on say this.

[@user-ge1tm7bb1u]

As historian, I'll tell you. You don't understand how oral tradition works. If you're interested look at history of early christianity of 1-2 century a.c. Or Iliad of Homer. To put it simple, your Shingake Ryu is nominal at first to predecessor from 300 years or 400 back there, and in the second is genetical heir. So there is not much historical honesty in extrapolation of modern key point of teaching to the past.

[@TheWasteOfTime]

@@user-ge1tm7bb1u Well as a koryu practitioner I understand very well how IT works, and since that's the subject under discussion and not Homer or early Xtianity I'll trust my own judgment on such things. Don't mistake my position for "nothing has changed." The koryu are living traditions and there are going to be adjustments from generation to generation according to the realities of the time and personal tastes and understandings of the teachers. One teacher might think one version of a technique better expresses the principle they're trying to convey only for their successor to come along and decide they're able to better express it another way. However, being part of that tradition, marinating as it were in its culture and language, puts one in another stratosphere of understanding compared to a complete and utter outsider who has no context to understand what was being talked about.

[@iidabashikarate]

I agree with you.

[@AntonyCummins]

So the only way for the oral tradition to work is if it said ignore the writing and do something total different. Also oral tradition is not as esoteric as people believe. Often just more details. So here it makes no difference to the basic argument

[@user-lq2yi8op7w]

@@user-ge1tm7bb1u As a historian myself, I can tell you that you completely miss the point of the argument. Mr. Cummins seems to insinuate that the real transmission has been lost in time or at least that it has been corrupted somehow. This is simply not the case! Yagyu Shinkage Ryu is a living tradition with an intact Soke line that teaches the art since a few centuries. This means the Soke have received the true and uncorrupted teachings from their predecessors (FIRST AND FOREMOST they have SEEN over the years from a REAL master what the techniques are all about, what they embody, what Gokui they represent and on top of that they have received oral instruction/KUDEN on how to do it correctly). This oral instruction (KUDEN) is deliberately missing in the text(s) that Mr. Cummins uses. And I can tell you, it is missing for good reason (it is missing, because of guys like Mr. Cummins, outsiders, who profess themselves to be experts).

[@canadafree2087]

The sitting down is likely just a style method to show that the technique is finished. The only practical reason to go down is to keep a guard in case the other person is not completely incapacitated by the cut to the wrist. You wouldn't want to be caught off guard and have your lower attacker stab up to your gut after you think you put him out of the fight. Jujutsu is more widely practiced than Ninjutsu, and even there you can see how many different ways there are to do the same technique from school to school. Take Waki-Gatame. It is seen as an elbow lock but you can lock up the elbow and shoulder, however if you have the hand you can also twist it and lock up all three. Which one "you" see as the right one if mostly tied to which one "your" teacher taught you, from what "his" teacher taught him...or "your" teacher added the wrist lock into his style.

[@gamundilorenzo8864]

you can not study ken just only with a boken...we need steel blade to understand the "fullen" (iron filing)

[@exander3636]

I think you have fallen prey to a common mistake here: attempting to respond to a simple attack with a much larger counter. The general scheme for successful countermoves throughout the world is that they must, by necessity, be smaller and tighter than the attack that they are managing. This is because your opponent will have the time and space to continue their assault if you do not clear their attack and respond immediately; as in, the same moment. The move you showed from the Yagyu Ryu is a good example of this. The concept is not necessarily to get behind the ATTACKER, but rather to get behind the ATTACK. I see nothing wrong with the way that kata is being performed within it's ryuha.