Having a go at Koryu

So, i tried Koryu.

[@transentient]

You are actually right about a lot of things you say in this video, but you don't really comprehend enough to know why you are right or in exactly what way. For example your premise seems to be that, based on the koryu embu you have seen and this alleged koryu iaido system you have dabbled in a bit, you don't think "real samurai fought that way." Well, of course not. Nobody who trains koryu would say differently. But that's because these are training systems. You aren't looking at people fighting, or even sparring. I am not sure what type of iai you were training there, but you are on about how its too slow to be realistic or something. It is most likely that they had you work through whatever they taught you very slowly so that you would not hurt yourself.

[@crazylegs5063]

As a martial artist I find it humorous that you thought any fixed set of movements would be applied in combat, each movement would obviously be used separately and as a response to the opponent.

[@crazylegs5063]

That doesn't mean that it isn't useful to train in patterns of movements, because in a sparring session you may find yourself doing a combo straight out of it.

[@ryandoppelganger665]

I practice 2 koryu and as in your case we are told what was original and what isn't...meaning the original kumitachi and the current one. The original is taught but only after you get requisite skills. I have also been exposed to 4 other major schools and have been told the same. However, we (the school I train) also have drills for more practical (in the historic context)application done at a realistic speed. With respect to the speed aren't we confusing training and actual historical combat?

[@archive4058]

Yes, that sounds amazing. You should tell Anthony or someone this so he can actually see it. He's just started so he does not have much exposure and I just keep finding flamers. I hope he does a video on this. Can you tell me if there are any demonstration videos or is it private?

[@ryandoppelganger665]

Archive 405 Demonstrations of the koryu I train?

[@LucasHenrique-it2io]

Which school do you train?

[@shaneh3237]

I totally agree with what you said in this video about how koryu has changed a lot and is not exactly the same. My sensei once told me that if you were in a real fight and you only did kata without modification or creating your own movements you will die because the reactions and movements of the opponent are completely unknown and could potentially move in hundreds of ways.

[@MCShvabo]

With all due respect I don't think anyone is saying that they would actually fight slow, it's practiced like that to avoid injuries and to be delicate in the way moves are done.

[@moralkamikaze1112]

Anthony. You do understand that what a bushi did in a battle and what they trained to do were different, right? If they practiced by using the techniques applied in the battlefield, there wouldn't have been many samurai who made it through training. Real Koryu use kata to train, once experienced practitioners are then taught where to cut. I will agree that there are schools who offer nothing but BS, but you should not be so uncouth as to label all Koryu as the same. Why not get your bokken and rock up to a Koryu Dojo and challenge the school. Let's see how you do. I could recommend some Dojo for you to visit.

[@sirupate]

Koryu were very late on in Bushi history, and even the likes of Don Draeger point out that most Samurai never went to a Ryu, what Anthony says makes a lot of sense, I was talking to a very well known Japanese sword expert who lives in Japan, and even he said the Koryu like the TSKSR has changed over time

[@jebstewart7295]

Thanks for the update, Ant! Really cool of you to keep an open mind and dig into koryu for yourself. Will you continue training in koryu, or was it just supplemental to your research for Natori Ryu? Hope you're having a great time in Japan, and thanks again for the hard work!

[@mrmikeryan1]

I really don't see anyone else trying to do what you are doing. You give others the opportunity to study and read a translated version of ancient scrolls that would have never been brought to life outside of Japan. Not all can afford to travel and live in Japan, study, train.... Your books provide something special and I support that.

[@roycehuepers4325]

Kata are in my opinion similar to oral history. Important culturally but one shouldn't be a slave to form but an adherent to principles

[@Pointyish]

I can’t see a problem with this, sounds common sense. One thing to remember is the current syllabus is probably why it’s relevant to the modern practitioner, the zen, the form, it’s most likely the only thing that’s kept it alive for so long. Add to that, only a select few want to train with intent, intensity and brutality, getting smacked in the head with a wooden sword a few times a session (probable, as your actually training to stay alive on the battlefield so they would be training brutally hard) wouldn’t go down well at all with modern practitioners. One thing I would say, maybe measure your reasoning with respect, simply because Koryu is actually relevant today, and as you said, contains the essence, would be terrible to lose it.

[@ryandoppelganger665]

Not getting into the slow part but I practice a koryu for years and can confirm we we told things changed, even when compared to 50 years ago.

[@sirupate]

You’re making some very valid points, it would seem from some of the comments that some of the people have misinterpreted what you’re saying I.e. the reference to iaido etc. A very well known expert on Japanese swords says that even TSKSR has changed, and one only has to look at the Budo conventions in Japan to see that the Koryu have become overly ritualised

[@RodCornholio]

Outstanding.

[@thesinkingpython7962]

Is it cool that I'm interested in Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto-ryu and Kunst des Fechtens.

[@johnclift163]

He must be correct as he's being going for several weeks, and I have to say the first time I saw Natori Ryun video (spring seminar) , I thought it was a joke , another 'enter the dojo' type channel.

[@LittleImpaler]

Antony do not take someone doing a form slow as if they can't fight. Honestly, you are judging things without full knowledge.

[@paulselway2553]

I would love to see this research

[@sdauf]

You need to visit more than one koryu school. Go visit Kuroda Tetsuzan.

[@LucasHenrique-it2io]

the Kata skills are original... the diference is the "Cerimonial training" only added in Edo period... many things changed in Edo period ,the wood sword (bokken) is an example... but the soul of the style is preserved in the "Katas"

[@orion00472]

My name is Tim Doyon I practice a tradition from Ainu decent the sword tradition I was taught is somewhat ritualized , I was taught chiburi but wiping always follows it also the forms or sets when done at speed are over in a matter of seconds against multiple enemies and everyone is moving at the same time , in the practice of these sets you remain unharmed however I dont believe remaining unharmed in any bladed situation is reality

[@cristian.crixus]

Your point is good, but technique is necessary for use of a lot of weapon...for example, Mr. Yoshinori Kono have his own interpretation and studys about the Samurai techniques, and he have a great technique!

[@hian]

I feel like whenever I stop by your videos you introduced stuff I'm pretty sure I told you ad nauseum in the comment sections back way back when you first started your reseach. Good to hear your research has taken you in the right direction. If you're ever in the Tokyo area, let me buy you a beer.

[@ElectricQualia]

I think he does half his research by letting ppl educate him in the comment section lol

[@LittleImpaler]

ElectricQualia That's cold. A real historian Karl Friday pointed out why Antony is a fraud. He said his book of Samuria was incorrect.

[@ElectricQualia]

I wouldn't go as far to say a fraud, but he is definitely fraud-ish. His book of the Samurai is just a translation of an old scroll. It's mostly anachronisms and history for geeks or academics interested in this sort of thing.

[@LittleImpaler]

If you are going to do koryu you need to stop bashing it. You bash it all the time. Wait. You told people you done koryu, but you rolled your eyes it was in your good bye to era video which you took down. Whatever people have right to question you.

[@gudkarma1]

Yes he's said he did koryu in that video. i mention this in my video as well.

[@archive4058]

He's not bashing it, where is he directly bashing it? A lot of what I am hearing is how koryu has transformed over the years just like anything else so can someone explain this notion to me? Are you being biased against him because of something in the past or can you disprove his logic in this video? Please keep it to this video only because he has a lot of them and things change overtime so we need to keep it on a case or video by video basis.

[@LittleImpaler]

Archive 405 He has been bashing about Koryu over and over again in many of his videos. He says one thing and says another constantly in his videos.

[@archive4058]

I sorta understand that he does bash them by calling them ignorant in general, but can you give me specific examples you know of? I am not 100 percent sure of the things in "one thing and says another", can you specify those things? And I feel this might be taken as rude, but I am asking for this particular video in my reply so please point it out to me.

[@skulduggerous]

"If you don't agree with me, you don't have the right to speak about this." I think that is a very toxic attitude.

[@orionbassmaster666]

"Me and my team of Japanese experts/minions all share this solemn attitude".......Natori Ryu Banzaiii!!!!!!

[@archive4058]

That can be taken as a really toxic attitude, but do you not agree that fighting with blades is fast and dangerous? If you cannot agree with this basic axiom and logic then what are you willing to accept?

[@MVK_GS]

skulduggerous Well, I think you misunderstand what a "toxic attitude" is. When in my unit, we jumped out of perfectly good aircraft all the time. I believe that jumping out of airplanes without packing a parachute in accordance with tried-and-tested procedures is likely to end in a tragedy. If you don't agree with that statement, you have no right to discuss military parachuting. See? It's not toxic. Fighting - for real - with a blade will do exactly what he said it would. Him saying so does not make a toxic attitude. In fact, not agreeing with him on that specific point would show that you truly don't understand what blade fighting entailed.

[@gudkarma1]

Actually he has implied that on & off youtube.

[@skulduggerous]

Alrich Fields 04:50

[@blackswordshinobi]

ok most of martial art from samurai is sword play koryu and spear and some martial art is from kukshin ryu even in ninjutsu ok I say samurai didn't put away the there sword slowly haft time was fast but in battle field some time didn't put way until battle was all enemy way dead

[@mgtowmapmaker8741]

I've studied with Tae Kwon Do instructors (a very young martial art - relatively speaking) , who studied under the same grandmaster, who teach, demonstrate and explain fundamental - FUNDAMENTAL - techniques differently. That's inside of a single generation. It's absolutely reasonable and logical to assume and assert that schools change/evolve and become more stylized (and perhaps even to the detriment of those techniques) over the course of many generations. Martial Artists cannot help but assert their own experiences and physicalities into what they practice, and Martial Arts instructors are no exception to this. Overtime, human beings tinker with, complicate and stylize everything they do - this is universally true in every human endeavour.

[@justinstewart705]

MGTOW MAP MAKER I feel I have to agree I practiced Toyama ryu iaido a modern style also known as Battho ryu from some research iv done online it was created in the 1900s for the Toyama military academy and was possibly used on my U.S. countrymen in ww2 there are quite a few lineages from different masters that have alot of difference from school to school evin in schools of the same master so this dose make alot of sense

[@AnthonySforza]

+MGTOW Map Maker Wow, this truly is a small world. Didn't think I'd see you on a video like this.

[@alexandre0319]

Keep up the great work Antony. Truth is all.

[@LittleImpaler]

Antony, Antony, Antony. How about you shut up and instead of bashing martial arts and voicing your opinion. How about you do a video about how samurai really fought?

[@sompret]

You think Samurai combat involves sloppy sword draws with the sheath facing dangerously sideways and you doing a half-squat, half tiptoe posture.

[@archive4058]

In that particular video ( I hope we are talking about the same video), he specifically mentions how this may be how one drew their sword in a PUBLIC crowd. How are you supposed to take out a long weapon quickly and not hit a passing civilian with it before alerting your target? If you are bumping shoulders with others it becomes difficult to actually draw your sword "normally".

[@sompret]

Where's the part where he talks about it again? I tuned out of this particular video at around the third minute.

[@LittleImpaler]

Joshua Madoc He doesn't know how the Samuria truly fought. He says he does, but yet as to explain.

[@metatronyt]

Brilliant video

[@jachyra9]

... aaaand we all knew you would say that.

[@metatronyt]

It's my opinion, to which I am entitled to mate, and besided, my comments under Antony's videos are not all positive, some are positive, some are negative.

[@LittleImpaler]

Once again. Samuria fought with form. Form is about combat. I am sorry about it is. How can someone know how to truly fight if there wasn't any form? You practice everyday until it becomes second nature. You didn't think Bruce Lee woke up and learn how fight did he? No he train for many years. So this form over function is rather silly. Yes, the form doesn't work if you don't practice it as you would in a fight. Put you must know form to know how to fight.

[@visionplant]

Koryu needs a HEMA approach

[@dimitriostsougkranis3232]

No way!

[@MiniatureMasterClass]

"This is more like a sport"?? - I think you stumbled into a kendo dojo, not koryu.

[@nelsonventura7374]

TONY,KID, DO NOT PRETEND OK? YOU ARE NOT THAT SMART! YOU CAN KEEP SHAKE YOUR MONEY MAKER, IN ALL THE WAYS YOU WANT,BUT DO NOT THINK THAT THE ENTIRE WORLD IS BLIND... SEE YOU IN TWO WEEKS,TO HAVE A NICE AND EDUCATED CONVERSATION WITH YOU. HAVE A GREAT DAY.

[@LittleImpaler]

This video is pointless , and here is why. A lot of people know their martial arts have changed this isn't something new. What Antony doesn't it. And I have tried to tell him. That people do teach martial arts with a martial attutide. He judging all marital arts as all the same. And it's not.

[@LittleImpaler]

There's so many lies in this video. Antony has said he knows how samurai fought, but hasn't prove anything as of yet. maybe for the fact we don't know how the Samuria fought, their martial arts died out. if the history of the samurai is fine why are you a historian? And always correct it? You just said two very conerdicting things. you say the history is fine, but say the history is not fine.

[@MechanicSilo]

Ignore these trolls Antony, they're all salty and bitter about being embarrassed rather than getting on board with the truth - please never abandon objective research! The truth needs no justification.

[@jachyra9]

Read this and grow up. www.way-of-the-samurai.com/Antony-Cummins.html

[@MechanicSilo]

Thanks, I've read that a couple times and it's all bullshit. The guy fails to mention the word philology even once and doesn't make a single substantial claim. He also backtracks on nearly every point and every single one of those section headers goes unresolved (but they make good bait, I'll give him that). If by 'grow up' you mean abandon the ability to think critically and use logic - then no, I will not. Seriously, why are you all so against historical truth? Why are you all so against discovering the original/war-practical version of your own schools!? Is it really so terrible that you've all been in the same boat of misinformation for all these years and that now someone outside of your community - a historian no less - is offering you a lifeline? You're the ones who need to grow up.

[@MechanicSilo]

Respect for education is not the same as respect for wrong teachings. And yeah, I get that you've all been practicing this stuff for decades but the point is - what you've been practicing is not historically accurate; it's changed over the years and no longer resembled its war-practical original. Why do you not hunger for this information? On the contrary, it seems YOU do not understand the words 'critical thinking', 'logic', or 'historian' if you're so against them in practice.

[@jachyra9]

You still don't get it. My point was obviously that people such as myself tend to take our cues from actual academics who have established careers and who have been engaged in the study and practice of archaic Japanese combatives for at least as long as we have. We all know everything that you and Cummins know, in addition to knowing the vast universe of information that you both haven't the slightest clue about. Cummins is a child. You are backing the wrong pony, kid.

[@MechanicSilo]

Please cite even one academic author's work which contradicts Antony's findings. PLEASE. Edit: And let me further clarify my position here, I am fully aware that Antony is not a source of information for actual techniques (I don't think anybody watching him draw a sword or shoot a bow thinks that - even babies can see the difference). He is however providing you with the actual lists and descriptions of those techniques which are historically accurate and which actual practitioners could demonstrate. That also seems to be the mission statement of his research, not 'I am Antony Cummins and I am the master of all martial arts'.