Ape Answers 007: Ground Plane Radials

[@Mary-wk6of]

Thank you so much The Smokin Ape! Excellent Video!☺️

[@TheSmokinApe]

@@Mary-wk6of thanks for checking it out 👍

[@WECB640]

Well done Ape. Clear, easy to understand, and verify (with the references given). I would like to point out the chart shown at 4:22 The bottom line indicates the expected impedance for the amount of radials on the antenna. NOTE (to those who are new to verticals)....The more radials you add, the closer to the theoretical 36 ohm impedance you get, and this is often VERY misleading as most new hams are measuring SWR only. They should be looking at the Smith Chart on their analyzer as it tells you everything you need to know. Never think that more radials are making the antenna worse because you had a better SWR when there were less radials. My Elmer pounded it into my head that SWR is far less important than field strength that the antenna produces for a give amount of watts. That is one very valuable lesson. 73

[@TheSmokinApe]

Great points Hollywood. Thanks for the comment and for watching bro 👍

[@Bdub1952]

Excellent explanation, Ape. I'm in a residential neighborhood and compromised with six 5 meter ground mounted radials for my 7.7 meter Rybakov vertical. It's been up for two years now, and has provided numerous contacts to Eu from my Idaho QTH. Contacts that I couldn't make with my OCFD or my 135' End Fed. I guess my point is that, even if you don't have the ideal situation for an elaborate ground plane, global contacts can still be made and fun can still be had.

[@TheSmokinApe]

I’ve been using a homebrew Rybakov type antenna with four radials for a few months now. I love the antenna 👍

[@iainmcculloch5807]

"Ape answers 007": So, Mr Bond. You want to know about Ground Plane Radials …? ;-) Seriously though, I'm loving this short explainer series. Thank you.

[@TheSmokinApe]

Hey Iain, glad you like them. Thanks for watching 👍

[@mcmichaeltube]

Thanks, Ape. Callum has had a bunch to say on this topic as well, for obvious reasons.

[@TheSmokinApe]

@@mcmichaeltube yep, he sure does 👍

[@bpsengineer_AC7PB]

An important statement associated with the table is that it applies for average soil conditions. When you go somewhere like POTA US-3261 near Seattle or some of the rocky SOTA summits I’ve activated, then you either need to tune your radials to 1/4 wavelength or use a tuner (gack!) to get SWR down to 2.0 or lower. I’ve never tried more than 9 radials, so I can’t speak for the higher quantities. I just coil the tips of my radials to the right length and leave the tuner buried in the bottom of the gear bag unused. de AC7PB

[@TheSmokinApe]

That’s a good point Brian, thanks man 👍

[@W8VHS]

Very good information. Thank you Sir. Have a great day.

[@TheSmokinApe]

Hey Vern! Thanks for watching 👍

[@KellyeEversole]

Thanks for the great video! I operate about half the time on granite in Maine. It takes a lot of different configurations for me to get good conductivity. I do have the ARRL antenna book and the German one. Lots of great information.

[@TheSmokinApe]

That German one is great 👍

[@DonzLockz]

Thanks, 007 Ape!😁👍

[@TheSmokinApe]

Howdy Don 👍

[@melissarainchild]

the ARRL handbook is the holy writing for Ham Radio...I fully agree. Having bought a Sigma HF360, I may need to add some radials as ground plane...I took note, thanks for posting this vid!

[@TheSmokinApe]

Hey Melissa, good luck with the project 👍

[@robertmeyer4744]

great job APE ! love the ARRL antenna book, DX commander did video on this with his antenna as reference antenna, showed some charts . I loved the part using same amount of copper wire as radialtes and cutting them in half and re connect. making more shorter ones gives better performance on some bands. this is subject to change according to the ground it is on. When doing portable I just do not stress out over ground radials. Just get some on the ground . I don't even try to make a neat pattern even spaced. Still make great contacts. 73

[@TheSmokinApe]

Hey Robert, it does open a world of experimentation for sure.

[@Swamp-Fox]

Time to do some reading and experimenting! Thanks Ape!

[@TheSmokinApe]

Hey SF, thanks for watching!

[@BigJohnsHamShack]

Another banger. Appreciate it Ape.

[@TheSmokinApe]

Howdy Big John, thanks for watching Bro 🍻

[@nateitkin8279]

Thanks Ape! Good chat. Antenna manufacturer's ground radial recommendations are literally all over the map so I wonder how accurate John Stanley's numbers are? One would think the manufacturer's RF engineers would be familiar with this. It would be interesting to vary the radial count, measure field strength and see if they're in the ballpark.

[@TheSmokinApe]

I agree, the FSM is the real test.

[@bassangler73]

Nice job, Ape

[@TheSmokinApe]

Thanks BA 👍

[@daveengstrom9250]

I have a chance to buy some ham gear (grandpa died and the family is selling his stuff) some of which is a 55 ft tower, a vertical multi-band antenna 10-80 meters and a few other things. This guy had a few other antennas, but I am only interested in this one. You mentioned tuning the elevated radials. How is that done? Can it be done on the ground before it goes up on top? Maybe you have a video on the subject?

[@TheSmokinApe]

Hey Dave. Most commercial antennas come with instructions for making the adjustments. It can be frustrating at times and others it’s not so bad. You will need to make the adjustments install the antenna and repeat until correct.

[@mikeZL3XD7029]

Good on ya, Ape. Can't agree more on any new person buying the Handbook, this is a formative book that every Ham should own. Yes the theory is pretty dry, but the more you read a book like this, the more it WILL sink in. I read a book from 1949 to pass my ticket in 1988, it was the only {edit} relevant{/edit} book available at the time. You young-uns have it too easy these days ha ha ha!!

[@TheSmokinApe]

Hey Mike. The books are great reference material, I go back to them all the time. Thanks for the comment 👍

[@Siskiyous6]

Great video, it reminds me why I have decided to never use a 1/4 wave vertical unless I am on an ocean going vessel.

[@TheSmokinApe]

LOL, awesome comment LC 👍

[@hughpatterson1480]

Another great video! You explained the subject extremely well. In use JPC-12 for field/POTA work. I use the standard 4 18.5 foot radials along with six shorter radials. Amateur radio is similar to chess in that it's perpetual solving of problems and making compromises in order to solve those problems. Of course, having to problem solve is part of the fun when it comes to antennas. I use a Xeigu G90 and do just fine with 20 Watts and a vertical. However, one thing I do when it comes to portable vertical antennas is look for the best place to put it up. Placement can be half the battle. Thanks again for another great video...73...Hugh...KN6KNB

[@TheSmokinApe]

Hey Hugh. I actually just picked up my second G90, I traded the first years ago and always missed that radio. Also, I’ve been playing around with vertical lately for no particular reason. Thanks for watching bro 👍

[@stevea3498]

Hey Ape, great info. My preferred antenna portable is the elevated vertical with 2 elevated counterpoise, I have the counterpoise linked for each band. killer. Now a buddy of mine has the MAGIC CARPET , which is 4 x 17 ft and gets a great match with his 17ft whip. Would be great to see a model on where the RF is going. Had to laugh with the Click Bait comment last evening with Simons livestream. Thanks VE1SK

[@TheSmokinApe]

Hey Steve, your antenna sounds pretty nice. Did you homebrew it? I know some swear by the carpet but I am not so easily convinced 😮

[@stevea3498]

@@TheSmokinApe I went by Gregs KJ6ER's spec's, I have some Buddypole parts that I use for feed point. I have 2 linked counterpoise , one I used 1/4" tubing and Anderson connectors, just found it bulky in a back pack and to make use I don't forget it in the wrong bag when going out, I made a second counterpoise with 3/16 tubing and 2mm banana plugs , less bulky , that one stays in the back pack. I have several methods of raising the vertical , 2 tripods, one light weight thats in the back pack, a large Buddpole tripod, and a hitch mount for my truck. So I multiple ways of setting up depending on the location. I have looked at may of Simons ideas but I am having a hard time getting away for the raised vertical. If it works , don't fix it.. lol

[@TheSmokinApe]

@@stevea3498 that sounds cool. And I am with you, don’t fix what ain’t broke!

[@dougdaniels]

Thanks Ape, great info. All this data is well researched and tested, and grounded in science, but every instance should be tested individually. Oddly enough, I put together a Wolf River Coils on a ground spike, and after testing a number of radials/lengths, I got the best SWR with only two 12' radials; 1.09:1 on 20m and 1.12:1 on 40m. With 4 radials it jumped up to 1.5:1, etc. No matter what combinations/lengths I tested, 2x12' worked the best. I am using 50' of non-choked coax, so that comes into play for sure. "It shouldn't work" but it did, for me, in that instance.

[@TheSmokinApe]

Hey Doug, totally agree. I look at this as guidelines for experimentation 👍

[@WECB640]

Hi Doug. A properly installed vertical 1/4 wave antenna with the correct amount of radials will have about a 1.5:1 SWR. (That's about 36 ohms). If you use less radials, you can have a near perfect 1:1 SWR, but you end up with an antenna that is not as efficient. Look at the chart at 4:22 and you'll see what I mean. 73

[@NatesRandomVideo]

The ARRL book using the word “loss” then following it with “at low angles” messes with understanding what’s going on here. The power isn’t “lost” at all. It’s simply radiating at higher angles. They do this often in their descriptions which makes the description more complex than necessary. Personally I settled on 30 radials under a 6BTV and the thing is an absolute DX monster. There’s really not much point in trying to bring the angle lower when you’re making it all the way around the globe to the far side at solar max. The 42-ish ohm impedance at 30 radials is also close enough to 50 ohms to make even a picky radio’s protection circuits happy. But 4 radials at a POTA or even two - any severely limited number - when typically one is making mostly domestic contacts? Send it. Full send. It’ll work fine. It’s not power loss, it’s just higher angle radiation - and depending on where you are in North America you’ll quickly see at what distance most of your contacts fall. Some software can plot it. Which reminds me, with 30 radials, you’ll see a distinct donut around your QTH of a few hundred miles where you have LESS contacts with a good DX vertical. You’re too far for ground wave and you’re shooting right over their heads with no backscatter from anything. You’ll typically have to fill that in with something more NVIS - a nice ladder line fed doublet or a loop, a dipole hung far too low above ground, etc. Cheers. Good topic. Just wanted to let folks new to ARRL books know to read their words carefully - they really give the wrong impression in some of the descriptions by focusing on a specific thing (in this case low angle radiation pattern) before they teach the broader concept that radials just pull the pattern back down from a blob sending RF in all directions, to a donut horizontal with the ground. “More antenna gain toward the horizon” is my favored term for this. Not “power loss”.

[@TheSmokinApe]

Hey Nate, thank you for the additional details 👍

[@davidc5027]

If you are in the middle of a field, then yes those lower angles can eventually find sky. However, if you are in the woods, or in a neighborhood there's going to be losses.. All the surrounding houses, wiring, bushes, shrubs, telephone poles etc.. all that can absorb and essentially distort waves trying to find sky (lower angles). It doesn't mean you can't perform well being in a wooded area or in a neighborhood.. It just means, there may be a reason why you can't get out well or hear well in certain directions or perhaps in several directions. I've learned all antenna have advantages and disadvantages, and the ground plane has plenty, like other antenna systems. I for one who lives in a neighborhood, surrounded by trees, will not put up a ground plane unless I have no other options. The exception being the "Elevated Vertical" which over-comes the problem of homes and most trees being in the far-field OR Fresnel zone which extends 2-3 wavelengths from the antenna. Best Regards =-

[@KO4VNX]

When I think of ARRL publications, I kind of feel like they might be a cure for insomnia. But you do make a very good case for this kind of resource! And you mitigated my ADHD which would have had me cutting 120 radials.... 120 RADIALS??? Egads man! If you hadn't highlighted the "so there you have the tradeoffs" I would have spent three years of my life cutting wire!

[@TheSmokinApe]

lol! I ain’t gonna lie, the reading is pretty dry but they make for great reference material 👍

[@DonDegidio]

Hi Ape, Callum of DX Commander has demonstrated that you need a total of about 2 to 4 wavelengths of radials to get the best performance from his verticals. He mentions that more shorter radials seems to work better than few longer radials. That should apply to other vertical antennas. You and the family stay safe. 73 WJ3U

[@TheSmokinApe]

Hey Don, good to see you 👍

[@bduff5004]

Another great video Ape! I have been trying to figure out what the characteristics of a ground plane vertical would be if raised to the peak of my garage with metal roof. The gaze would be at 20’ and the metal roof slopes east and west. Would connecting stub radials to the metal roof work? All constructive comments welcome. Thanks. Please stay on topic relative to Apes video of verticals

[@TheSmokinApe]

You could jumper it to the roof. I have no idea how well it would work or not but give it a try...

[@m7trsradio]

Great work Ape 🦧 I am currently building a vertical antenna 👍🏽 73

[@TheSmokinApe]

Glad you liked it, thanks for watching bro 👍

[@dorvinion]

Seems like a case of don't overcomplicate it, don't overthink it

[@TheSmokinApe]

Just put some down and see how you do...

[@timg5tm941]

The shorter the vertical as a fraction of a wavelength, the greater the importance of ground radials. Less than a 1/3 of a wavelength long: ground radials matter. Between 0.4-0.8 of a wavelength they barely matter. Adding ground radials to the base of a ground mounted efhw vertical for example changes or adds nothing. This means that a good radial system for the Poseidon/Rybakov non resonant vertical matters on 20,30,40m as the antenna is less than a 3/8 wave long. They do little/nothing for 10-17m where the antenna falls between 0.4-0.8 wavelength long on those bands.

[@TheSmokinApe]

That’s great info Tim, thank you 👍

[@don_n5skt]

My friend Don earlier in the comments is correct. Callum has done this and he sites a paper written by Rudy Severns where he tested the radials. The basic formula for radials is 1 wave length of wire cut to the highest band operated for a multiband vertical. IE for an 40m vertical, 40m of radials cut in any length. The Steppir article also sites Rudy's study. Elevated radials and elevated verticals are a different matter. One can get by with 2 radials cut to a specific band (IE tuned) with the goal being to get very close or spot on 36 Ohms. Never heard the 36 Ohm rule for ground mounted but makes sense. QUESTION: How do we apply said knowledge to the Poseidon?

[@TheSmokinApe]

Howdy Don. With the Poseidon being a portable antenna we recommend 4 17' footers. Keep in mind the material cited is for 1/4 wave verticals with the Poseidon is not. I'm not sure it's an apples to apples comparison but I am open to feedback.

[@don_n5skt]

@@TheSmokinApe Ok, pretty sure I get why in that you are not going to get the proper Ohm value. I feel on the Poseidon I have deployed here, I am not getting the performance I feel like the antenna should get. I think I may rebuild that box or at least replace the radial connector amoung a couple of other things.

[@TheSmokinApe]

DM me son

[@EricSolomon-op8ti]

As a “Newbie” to the Sport of Ham Radio, my wife has concerns for the “Stuff” I have acquired thus far. Now a Radial setup - I am going to need a Gifted Negotiator to assist me with this next purchase of wire. Maybe a forklift to move the “Spool”. (Side note: the UPS driver is not going to be happy Plus do you think will get me on a “list” w. the alphabet groups? ) Just sayin

[@TheSmokinApe]

Haha, good luck with the project 👍

[@hazer72]

Feels like the math doesn't take ground height/conditions into account.

[@TheSmokinApe]

I didn’t see a direct formula that did that

[@Pioneer936]

I hear all the time ,mine works well without a groundplane, or its a halfwave it doesn't need a groundplane, if only they could read

[@TheSmokinApe]

lol, true words!