Aptera drivetrain officially revealed and I was wrong

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[@awalkwithjohn]

One other benefit is that if a wreck occurs and you lose a wheel , you only lose a wheel and not the motor that was going to be in the wheel, a lot cheaper to fix.

[@jakeeaves218]

@@JoeBManco It always depends on the damage

[@ccibinel]

I'd like to know if the motor, inverter and reducer in the emr3 are independently replaceable if one fails or if the entire unit is junk if something fails

[@greghellings]

My ex wife was driving our Chevy Volt and was in a wreck bad enough to lose a wheel. Repair was $11k and insurance paid it because the car was worth more at the time. Losing a wheel doesn't always total the vehicle.

[@TheLateSkeptic]

@@JoeBManco I'm in agreement. An aptera loses a wheel in an accident, it's a serious accident and most likely will be a complete loss.

[@greyangelpilot]

@@JoeBManco If the Carbon Fiber body is breached/broken beyond any possibility of repair, yes the Aptera Body will be a total loss.

[@merrickhurst4150]

I don't know if others have shared this sentiment already, but personally I am not married to the idea of Hub motors. I like the idea and the efficiency, and I like Elaphe as a company, but if Aptera came out tomorrow and said they would never use Hub Motors I would still want one.

[@dennisg-ski7829]

Agree. All it would take to destroy an IWM is for a driver turning wide in a parking space and destroying a pod. I'd rather only need to purchase a wheel/hub assembly than the entire hub-motor unit.

[@635574]

But for awd the rear has to be in hub or they'd have to change a lot of the design.

[@TailosiveEV]

Same. Aptera’s key to efficiency was always about the aerodynamic shape. Not the hub motors

[@ronfarnsworth7074]

​@@dennisg-ski7829Good point.

[@brianrosenlof388]

I'd still prefer the hub motors. They are more efficient, more torquey and have sort of a cutting edge coolness factor. However, I'll get over it. Not sure if I can get over the lack of AWD though, personally.

[@richpate9436]

Switching motor type shows just how smart and flexible Aptera is when dealing with all the moving variables happening in bringing such an innovative EV design to market. As a pre-order customer I am willing to simply support Aptera in whatever it takes to get this revolutionary vehicle into production and one of them into my driveway.

[@edwinschaap5532]

Just as flexible as legacy car makers have EV version of their ICE cars. They are only a little empty under the hood.

[@MikeInTheWoods]

As much as I'm sad that we lose AWD for the Launch Edition, this is a very good sign. It means they're getting absolutely serious about their launch window.

[@gildardo]

Yes. A proven drivetrain is important. Reason is that sometimes the design isn't a robust as intended. Early Tesla had issues with motor bearings going bad. The BMW I3 also had issues with bad bearings in their motor.

[@humbughumbughumbug]

I'm sad about the loss of AWD, which means I'll have to wait my turn, but it will accelerate others to get theirs sooner, which makes me happy as a shareholder.

[@albertolau9430]

The silver lining, as was mentioned in the video, is less mass at the wheels. Less unsprung weight means better handling and dynamics.

[@robertkirchner7981]

We might lose the precise toque vectoring, however.

[@mikeb1039]

@@robertkirchner7981 what are you going to use torque vectoring for?

[@CharlesAnsman]

Now with very little weight over the wheels, traction instead of spinning is going to be critical

[@mikeb1039]

@@CharlesAnsman Even some E bicycles have anti slip capability. Easy peasy.

[@henrikasfeldt2948]

@@CharlesAnsman The weight of the entire vehicle is still going to be supported by the three wheels. With total weight on each wheel being very close to the same, traction will be very close to the same.

[@g.pattonhughes5991]

The big difference is a geared drive train. The Elaphe in-wheel motors had a maximum rotational speed of 1500 RPMs in an direct rotation of the wheel. If you wanted to increase the speed, you'd literally have to increase the circumference of the wheel so it would go a few more inches on every revolution. In contrast, the EMP3 motor has a maximum rotational speed of something like 20,000 RPMs which is reduced by the gearing in the differential. We know from ICE cars that gearing can be changed to enhance acceleration (a 4.11 rear end) or top speed (a long-legged ratio like a 3.23 rear end in an ICE car.) I suspect some performance oriented folks will grasp this possibility and explore, under right to repair, their option for improving performance. With Aptera's .13 Cd, its aerodynamics would reward those with long-legged gearing with a top speed more in keeping with its 'supercar' looks than the 101 mph top speed previously announced.

[@moeali12345]

FWD is fine for me. Good decision on delivery vs. AWD. Folks who want AWD, can wait, but the company will start selling products, benefit the community and prove worthiness.

[@humbughumbughumbug]

@@moeali12345 yes. I need AWD, but if the FWD gets delivered, that makes the production of my AWD all the more feasible

[@elpookay]

all good to me. seems like it will be even more reliable..can't wait for them to add that hub motor in the back

[@bderoes2731]

The LE configuration was based on the most popular choice among pre-orders at the time. So it's understandable that a lot of people are disappointed that a significant aspect has changed (AWD). But this actually brings the LE closer to my original pre-order... only need the smaller battery pack (250 miles). I'll happily "settle" for the longer range :-). Very curious to see the impact on efficiency. Happy to see the lower price on my dashboard.

[@garywozniak7742]

I hope that at least the 100 wH/mile is still a thing. Probably not.

[@humbughumbughumbug]

I'm sad about the lack of AWD but I'm celebrating for customers like you who don't need it! Let's go! Emr3 ftw!!

[@ModernNeandertal]

Just a thought here. When they do get to all wheel drive I bet the front drive will remain the same and just the rear will go to a hub motor drive. To me, it doesn't make sense to change to all hub motors until the rear hub motor proves itself out in the field over millions of miles of customer use. I'm hoping the front motor they are using will prove to be bulletproof.

[@deanmcmanis9398]

I wanted something close to the original Tesla Roadster, but more efficient. And that looks like what the Aptera will be. The 201HP is the same power as the previous 3 hub motors together. I am happy that Aptera is solidly moving forward towards production.

[@jaredfromspace]

Small thing, but as you compare power to the Mazda Miata, keep in mind that those power numbers are at the flywheel and it has some drivetrain loss (something like 20%) to the actual wheels. This increases the relative performance of the Aptera when you compare the two. I had spec'd a FWD Aptera with full solar from the start, because I think that a vehicle like this should prioritize efficiency - for that reason, speed/acceleration isn't an issue to me, so long as it can merge onto highways safely.

[@macrumpton]

Going into production you always want to reduce the number of uncertainties as much as possible. I think the single motor that has been used in other vehicles is an excellent way to reduce potential problems.

[@BillMitchell-lm8dg]

It adds availability of replacement and upgrade parts as well.

[@mattfranck7040]

Per the Vitesco press release from May: The EMR3 version for the CR-V e:FCEV was jointly developed by experts in Europe, China and Japan. In the Honda SUV it pushes out 174 horsepower and offers 229 lb.-ft. peak torque.

[@DrTeeHenry]

I found the last five minutes of this video particularly insightful. Two start-ups partnering together (Aptera - Elaphe) adds a lot of risk and likely delays. A start-up partnering with OEMs (Aptera - Vitesco and Elaphe - Established Auto Manufacturers/OEMs) reduces that risk for the start-ups. AOC Steve's "We have to get this show on the road"... kind of says it all... literally! Well said!

[@heartdyedpurple]

I’m not usually one to be spelling/grammar police, but I think you mean insightful. Incite means to provoke. I thought Steve was gonna say some wild stuff at the end of the video 😂

[@DrTeeHenry]

@@heartdyedpurple Thank you! 😂 Of course! (I did actually look it up -- it didn't look right, but failed to fix it.) Sorry to give you false hopes! I've fixed it now.

[@tumbleweed1976]

Keep the project moving. Literally.

[@JuiceBoxScott]

FWD works, but nobody gets excited about it. I was excited for the performance and uniqueness of a 3WD car.

[@gmv0553]

I am going to wait for the validation of the P models and then judge on the results!

[@emilioparrilla465]

Aptera is doing a great job handling this drive train situation. It's easy to get frustrated when there are going to be small changes but clearly this is going to be for the better, I've been driving 2 wheel drive for my whole life, why am i suddenly going to be upset aptera is going to be 2wd 😂

[@JustWasted3HoursHere]

Developing both drivetrains in parallel may have saved them. Otherwise we'd have to wait at least another year for deliveries. To tell the truth I was a little bit worried about longevity with the hub motors anyway because the motors would only be insulated from shock by the tires, whereas a centrally located motor also has suspension and motor mounts to help, not to mention protection from the elements etc. This is a good decision.

[@bozomedicus5035]

the movement shocks arent an issue for hum motors in e-MTBs; those motors are reliable with far more punishment

[@JustWasted3HoursHere]

@@bozomedicus5035 In comparison to an internal motor protected by the suspension system and the rest it's not as durable. Maybe if you're only doing nice city and highway driving, sure. But on bad roads, dirt roads no way.

[@alexfunk2047]

Most of the "elements" being other vehicles whacking the outrigger pods.

[@JustWasted3HoursHere]

@@alexfunk2047 That is definitely a concern too.

[@wineberryred]

If something malfunctions on the EMR3, you should be able to find a mechanic that can work on it since it's used on several other vehicles.

[@billsmith5960]

Aptera uses a QR code on everything. So a mechanic scans it, then knows everything. Super easy to fix. Problem has already been solved.

[@garywozniak7742]

A mechanic would be able to work on the wheel motor just as easily.

[@Okurka.]

@@billsmith5960 QR codes make everything super easy to fix. /s

[@NoorElahi1776]

I was all set to sit out the Launch Edition but with the new drivetrain, I'm all in! This is awesome, with my order number (14258) I will have one of the first Apteras, even here in Orange County!

[@Kukaboora]

The interview of Elaphe CEO by apterasolar was stunning. Aptera was the one who walked away, not Elaphe. The CEO of Elaphe was very fond of Aptera for its efficiency. When asked, he said he would preferred Aptera among all other developments.

[@madmotorcyclist]

I've gotten by with my 13 year old front wheel drive Leaf for all these years so I can live with Aptera's decision. In the end it means there will be less things that can go wrong so I'm for simpler. Compared to my Leaf's powertrain the Vitesco powertrain package is so much smaller. It will be interesting to see how the PI2 results come out though in performance and how this drivetrain change affects the end price of the vehicle.

[@ccibinel]

The Aptera version of the M700 used modfied windings and only had 42 KW. This is why the AWD dropped from 3.5 seconds to 4 seconds 0-60 when the LE was announced. If traction is optimal the new motor could be faster but I suspect it will be more like 4.2 - 4.5; Chris M said they have not tested it yet but traction would be the limiting factor. Based on Chris M's justification for this choice VS the EMR4 being about them being unavailable without ordering huge quantities it seems likely the EMR4 is the longer term plan as Aptera gets to high volume production and adds the rear motor. The EMR3 is a permanent magnet where the EMR4 is available in a more efficient induction version which can be shit off; This would allow far more efficient cruising with just the small rear IWM (very likely less powerful than the original planned IWM). Both motor platforms are very similar and while the EMR4 is slightly bigger I expect they also planned for it and just realigned due to difficulty getting them in quantities needed.

[@CharlesAnsman]

EMR3's are old stock, that's why the Continental name tag is on them.

[@bemusedalligator]

I would be unsurprised if aptera uses an elaphe motor for the rear wheel on AWD, and eventually switches to elaphe in-wheel motors entirely once everything is fully able to meet demand.

[@antibrevity]

I actually doubt that they'll want to switch back to hub motors on the front unless there is some substantial range advantage. Once the standard motor is integrated into production, it likely has multiple advantages, including a better ride quality and reduced stress on the suspension. Not only should the initial cost be lower, but the collision costs will be *much* lower and this should make the car much easier to insure. Unless the hub motors provide a much improved range/charging proposition, I suspect that they'll keep the hub motors on the rear and leave the front with the standard powertrain.

[@apterasolar]

It is European notation of number. Just switch comma and point with each other then you're good. So it's twothousand nine hunded Nm. Here's a tricky thing with the 2900 Nm of EMR3: is it measured before the reduction gear or after it? Makes a huge difference. M800 IWM Nm is directly in the wheel. So, are these numbers comparable?

[@VolkerHett]

In the EU torque is measured on the engine before any reduction gears.

[@b.robinson206]

The motor seems to be the exact unit from the Honda e:Ny1 SUV (201 hp /150 kW) Torque: 229 lb-ft) Not a bad thing.

[@michaelwilson7978]

As far as driving in the winter - the all wheel drive was due to the center 3rd wheel. With a normal 2+2 configuration, your wheels fit into the ruts made by the other cars on the road. With the 3rd middle wheel, I have concerns that the snow 'hump' try to kick the rear end to one side or another. The powered rear wheel was my hope at mitigating the issue. I am sad that it isn't going to be all wheel drive, but I would much rather they would deliver sometime before my existing car dies.

[@ronfarnsworth7074]

That was my original concern for winter driving too, 3 tracks in 2 ruts. But then I wonder how much a lightly weighted driven rear wheel would help that. Would help some I agree but not eliminate the tracking concern fully. I drive in central New England and think ground clearance will be a bigger issue than traction as it is with my present awd car. I plan on 3 studded snows and think I'll be fine. I grew up with way worse.

[@barryjewett4037]

@@ronfarnsworth7074 Perhaps this gives Aptera an insight into the '3 tracks ' in deep snow question of stability issue before they promote a winter snow capable AWD vehicle.

[@robertkirchner7981]

The other key to directional stability for a three wheeler dragging its rear wheel down the middle of the "hump" was going to be the precision torque vectoring made possible by the hub motors. Any torque vectoring in this system will rely on partial application of one front brake, which is less than ideal on a slippery surface.

[@davidbeal6925]

I hear you. And that's a temptation for me yo, but I think my current car will die even before they can get this new variation to me. I will probably pass till the all wheel drive is ready.

[@humbughumbughumbug]

Yeah same here. But for now let's cheer on the FWD people! Let's see this on the roads!!

[@johnmalcom9159]

Aptera uses COTS (Commercial Off The Shelf) components where possible/appropriate, a good approach as it reduces development time, development cost, and procurement risk. The most important thing right now is getting something into the market. So, this change is a good thing for those reasons. BUT, many will be disappointed in the changes to the long standing, advertised, configuration and performance and Aptera is becoming more ordinary. The engineering "Rightness" of this decision is offset by the bait and switch approach to the change.

[@GullWingInnMoclips]

Only the most naive of enthusiasts would expect a start up to stubbornly push forward with ALL aspects of an original plan when met with the inevitable challenges of a project this complex. If you feel victimized or conned, that's on you. They had their reasons for not subjecting every decision to public scrutiny until they were ready. Perhaps we will find out exactly what those reasons were, perhaps not. "Bait and switch" is defamatory and hyperbolic language... a complete exaggeration of what has transpired. There is very little that is "ordinary" about the Aptera even with these changes. It still has a unique combination of efficiency and performance which remains unmatched in a cluster of common cookie-cutter cars.

[@TheLateSkeptic]

@@GullWingInnMoclips you dont know what the performance is, so how can you make a statement saying its unmatched?

[@ronfarnsworth7074]

​@@GullWingInnMoclipsWell stated.

[@ronfarnsworth7074]

​@@TheLateSkepticWhat else comes close for efficiency?

[@GullWingInnMoclips]

@@TheLateSkeptic Reading comprehension deficit syndrome, perhaps? What part of "unique combination of efficiency and performance" don't you understand? Perhaps the word "combination" went whoosh.... right over your head? You're welcome to show me a vehicle that comes close to approaching the Aptera in this regard.

[@ModernNeandertal]

The power is real nice when you consider that the torque value is immediate and doesn't have to build like in a ICE.

[@JankyAF]

Sure other people are saying this but even living in upstate NY if the FWD only L.E. means I jump up in line b/c people are holding out for AWD (which I completely understand and respect) I’m very happy with that compromise, I just want to drive the thing, I’ll probably get a crappy winter beater anyhow to keep the Aptera nice for the long run. I understand the disappointment - a lot of people balked when the Jaguar XJ220 went from a 12 to a 6 cylinder, but I’m just happy the car was made, and would’ve happily owned one in either configuration. Realistically if the Aptera is half as good as promised and reasonably reliable and efficient, I’ll be thrilled

[@biodan8577]

I'm less concerned about going with a proven e-motor than the lack of timeline for the AWD development. I have had AWD wagons since 2009 (mostly BMWs). IIRC, previous commenters have mentioned that there are other hub-motor manufacturers. However, they also may be small companies. I would be fine with the EMR3 driving the front wheels + a hub motor in back. And some info on when the larger battery for the 600mi variant will be available would be welcome too.

[@ModernNeandertal]

I imagine that rear tire will last twice as long without the hub motor. Sounds like a much more robust vehicle without the hub motors.

[@ericwheelhouse4371]

Idk that hub motor vs regular motor would really contribute to a more robust vehicle overall. It’s just less efficient. The wear on the tire would more so depend on driving habits

[@ModernNeandertal]

@@ericwheelhouse4371 Nobody buys a Hayabusa to baby it. I also think that keeping all those hub motors in synch with each other is not an easy task. I can understand why many want or feel they need that all wheel drive but it sure simplifies things with just front wheel drive.

[@garywozniak7742]

​@ModernNeandertal we've drinking the Kool-aid for a few years. It could take awhile to detox.

[@BillMitchell-lm8dg]

With replacement parts for the EM3 available from Honda, and the EM4 available for upgrade from Hyundai, there will be an interesting 3rd-party after-market parts market.

[@russstockman3477]

I have been driving a Model 3 RWD in the Chicago winters for the past 4 years. No issues even with the OEM all-season tires. I choose the all-wheel setup for balanced performance. With the delay delivery is fine because I will only have maybe one more winter before shipping it to Hawaii for retirement life in 2027.

[@bertrandp2977]

Until proven otherwise, I believe the published EMR3 specs of 2900 Nm peak power instead of Steve’s salad on this. Period in Europe is not the decimal point but a thousand separator. Decimal point is the comma there.

[@ronfarnsworth7074]

Thanks for that info.

[@artsmith103]

AOC said he confirmed it somewhere else.

[@apterachallenge]

I looked this up on another website, which clarified that the 2900 Nm for the EMR3 is wheel torque, and that the motor torque is much less. Here's the quote I found: "This e-axle driver provides a peak torque of 310 Nm (motor) and 2700 Nm (wheel)". So realistically, the torque is going to be superior to an awd Elaphe wheel motor setup (3x700Nm = 2100Nm). What I thinks this means, is that by the time the motor is geared through a transaxle, this multiplies the torque to the wheels, the same as what happens with most cars that drive through a gearbox, except of course this will be a single-speed gearbox (transmission).

[@TOTALpopedom]

Dude I learned on FWD and had no trouble at all with the blizzard of '95 in Cincinnati. Anyone knocking FWD is full of it. The weight will be right where you want it too - on the drive wheels...

[@garywozniak7742]

It is still disappointing. We were sold on it being AWD.

[@humbughumbughumbug]

I learned on FWD. Then I moved to a place with a lot of snow and ice. Got rid of my Taurus for an Impreza before I got killed.

[@edwinschaap5532]

Bad news, only two wheel drive and no torque vectoring because it’s one engine. And the weight is much higher up. I’ll wait for the in-wheel version.

[@adamswenson1093]

Unfortunately if not enough people buy the LE, there may not be an in-wheel version

[@ronfarnsworth7074]

GKN Automotive has a torque vectoring single motor setup. Their website shows a cutaway graphic that might interest you.

[@ronfarnsworth7074]

Higher drivetrain yes, but heavy battery down low is biggest factor for cg. Maybe they can use a stiffer swaybar to mitigate. See how the testing goes..

[@scottwilson2859]

So, you'e saying Aptera has both an in-wheel motor design and a single-motor design that they've been working on in parallel? That's interesting, since then they'll have an in-wheel version that they could build in a few years if and when Elaphe has its motor ready. The all-wheel version will necessarily have to wait for in-wheel anyway.

[@quellLeo8870]

Eh, everyone around drives AWD but that's just because everyone buys SUVs these days. FWD & RWD are fine in snow with the right tires.

[@ronfarnsworth7074]

Ground clearance is what most people forget about, not always a factor but usually why I get stuck in my awd car.

[@lamboman2]

AWD is a nice to have, but I’d rather get my Aptera sooner, and it’ll be more efficient anyway. And the price dropped several thousand dollars.

[@alexfunk2047]

Probably not to below what I just spent on a 5 passenger 2023 Chevy Bolt EUV with 6,500 miles. The efficiency weighs in at just half of the Aptera at 5mi/kWh and of course no solar. But fairly satisfactory as an interim vehicle.

[@lamboman2]

@@alexfunk2047 that’s cool. But as a lifelong frustrated auto engineer, knowing what could be accomplished but powerless to get it done at the big three, I’m interested in this world changing technology only. People always asked if I care so much about the environment driving a Honda Fit, why do I have a Lamborghini also. It’s all about pinnacles for me.

[@kylerobinson7572]

Engineering is always a compromise. Aptera made the right decision!!

[@bfarm44]

I still want it but I want mine with no pedals or steering wheel. I want one center joystick and I want it to make jetson noises while traveling

[@TheLateSkeptic]

this comment is the best

[@danielthompson3928]

😂

[@elertus]

Thank you! My Aptera LE build info was updated 0-60 mph in 6sec, but this is all going to be validated,

[@bertrandp2977]

Where I live (High Sierra California), most vehicles are AWD. Like 80% or more AWD. I understand Aptera decision, but an upgradable path to AWD for LE version is a must for my accelerator Aptera. So I will have to delay my purchase until that is the case, which is a major bummer.

[@mikeb1039]

For what situation are you thinking you need AWD? Short of deep snow, FWD is as good as AWD in most conditions. Of course that's using OLD school AWD/FWD where the weight of the motor is over the front axles typically, weighting the front (drive) wheels disproportionately. You may need it in steep places. here is the flat as a pancake northern Indiana 80% of drivers think they need AWD too (seriously). But in fact we avg 3 snows a year that are all melted a way in a week and don't really even snow tires anymore. But why pay attention to what's happening? (not you, drivers here...)

[@bertrandp2977]

Slush, clear ice, deep snow and other R2 conditions. I live at 7800’ (500” of snow during average seasons). I do not want to have to stop at chain controls to put chains in stormy weather or even each time I am driving down to town with FWD, instead of being waved through with an AWD. I am also worrying of plowing snow with that not driven centered rear wheel. Finally, distributed traction when hitting clear ice on one side is key. I have seen too many cars (so many that I can’t count) ending off the road, not to want an AWD (and snow tires).

[@andrewfuller8440]

@@mikeb1039 the man said high Sierra, that means steep grades and twisty roads

[@mikeb1039]

@@andrewfuller8440 I don't live near high sierra so I wouldn't know. AWD doesn't help with twisty roads.

[@garywozniak7742]

​@@mikeb1039yes it does.

[@ItsSeals]

So the launch cost should be cheaper because AWD was an additional fee

[@fozzyrinker313]

It will be fine.

[@jeffreyd1701]

Fine yes but not what they have been promoting year over year driving up investment from investors.

[@fozzyrinker313]

@@jeffreyd1701 They gave valid insight as to why they made the changes. Things happen and investors need to remember that, or don't invest. I did not invest simply due to not having the money to be able to do that or I gladly would have. I have a launch edition reservation though and I am looking forward to it whenever I finally get to take delivery.

[@CRAZYFLASHGAMING]

So Aptera got cheaper, lost some weight, and is more efficient? Sounds like a big win to me:)

[@danielthompson3928]

I heard cheaper and less weight but I missed the efficiency comment. I thought hub motors were still more efficient?

[@sturmeko]

@@danielthompson3928 They aren't more efficient, hub motors are a bit less efficient because they have to run at lower RPM than onboard motors with reduction gear, which is mostly offset by not having reduction gear losses. Hub motors are more efficient with holistic vehicle approach - they save some space in the frame, which allows to lower roof line and reduce vehicle size for same interior space, improving aerodynamics. But since Aptera body doesn't change depending on motors, it doesn't make much sense to use more complicated, expensive and unproven hub motors if they have space in the frame for onboard motors.

[@Okurka.]

It didn't get cheaper. The FWD hub motor version is the same price as the FWD single motor version.

[@sturmeko]

@@Okurka. That price for hub motor version was set several years ago, it would most likely have increased now.

[@Okurka.]

@@sturmeko "would most likely have" So you're just speculating?

[@ronaldclarkson1146]

I think this will evolve into a long-term strategy for a 3 wheeled vehicle. Having the front wheels powered by one drive train is more efficient, and a hub motor will be most efficient for the 3rd wheel. In the end, this vehicle is about efficiency.

[@edwinschaap5532]

Why is it more efficient? Having multiple electric motors can be more efficient and have totally different characteristics than ICE's and drivetrains. The in-wheel motors were direct drive where this single motor has shafts and joints to the front wheels which are less efficient.

[@brucebender5917]

My brother has a Miata as a toy/sport car. I can't wait to smoke him on the drag strip, and probably be about even with him on the track. Sibling rivalry is real and I am going to beat my brother with an Aptera.

[@robertwakeman1679]

On the drag maybe but on the corner Not with out three wheel drive and traction control no way in hell but I can tell you are not a drifter because you call the Miata a toy.

[@garywozniak7742]

At the placeholder price of ~31k for this new FWD LE, I'm probably still good. But I think I'm going to dig my heels in there. A Prius Prime and GoSun rooftop Solar Charging product might be a better choice for me depending on the real final price.

[@ernest795]

if you want an AWD just move your spot in the line. I waited a year to secure my spot until I could get something above 10k so the initial bugs would be worked out.

[@1978rayking]

Cool looks like in the future, if we ever have to remove the power train, we should be able to source the whole unit.

[@danmccoy6164]

I think the single motor and driveshaft for the front wheel drive. Way reducing unsprung wieght for the steering wheels. Is a great idea. The rear could easily be an in wheel motor. Although still higher unsprung weight. I will not buy it without all wheel drive. I have a 600mile version ordered. So should be available by then.

[@instantchow]

They are both engineering companies, I don't think they felt snubbed, good design is universal.

[@danielthompson3928]

Elaphe’s comments seem kind of bitter to me.

[@Soothsayer210]

Being a Canadian, and since we have too much snow in Winter at where I am staying, I ONLY drive all wheel drives for better traction (winter tires are mandatory here). Looks like I will have to wait a little while longer for my Aptera with my 'All Wheel/ Off roader' drive configuration.

[@adamswenson1093]

@@Soothsayer210 Same. All wheel drive was a make or break item for me.

[@AverageJoe928]

I live in a northern area of New England and have only owned FWD without issue. I feel like the need for AWD is over blown. Snow tires are way more important than AWD in my opinion.

[@gr8dvd]

@@AverageJoe928 Some argue FWD only is not a credible direct comparison between 3 & 4 wheelers including the 4 wheelers nicely follow the 2 parallel ruts on snow-covered roads. I personally dunno but glad to test if Aptera wishes to provide me a late PI vehicle 😀

[@Soothsayer210]

@@AverageJoe928 Snow tires are mandatory for us here. I live in rural area, some of the areas they don't plow that frequently. Besides, I have pushed far too many FWD myself when they are stuck.

[@ronfarnsworth7074]

​@@AverageJoe928I drive in central New England and plan on studded snows which should be fine on a front weighted vehicle. I grew up with way worse. Ground clearance on my awd car is sometimes a bigger issue than traction.

[@whwh9342]

I think this is the best if elaphe end up partner with other and get into production then we as a consumer will probably hv option provided aptera actually made it into production and start having orders

[@ryanl6316]

Form follows function. If the EMR3 obtains the same efficiency it's finez

[@ronnw8153]

Im all for the EMR3 as long as it is just as reliable and dosent make the Aptera any more expensive.

[@lsh3rd]

It could make it cheaper.

[@ericstarmer7779]

@@lsh3rd It should make it cheaper.....

[@humbughumbughumbug]

Funny you say that "look around majority of cars are FWD" I looked around and i was surprised by how many traditionally FWD models actually have AWD. I was surprised because i moved from a mild climate to a colder climate. Camry, Avalon, Altima, Fusion, Taurus, etc... all had AWD! And i thought that they were somehow more skilled in driving a FWD death trap when actually it was just another AWD!

[@unclegeorge7845]

"I was wrong!" That's why we pay attention to you, Steve. Now let's move the charging plug and battery connector to the front and save dozens of feet of heavy duty cabling and have a less risky location. But "WHY?" really lose the hub motors?

[@harriettanthony7352]

Good Point! Move the cutesy rear charge plug to the nose, and remove all the costs of the longer cable to the rear. They could hide the plug under one of the DRLs, much as Tesla hides the port under a tail lamp bezel.

[@unclegeorge7845]

@@harriettanthony7352 Yup!

[@lsh3rd]

For the folks that believe they need AWD, consider this. Most cars have 1/2 the wheels driving. In Aptera's case, 2/3 of the wheels are driving with 2/3 of the vehicle weight over them. You should have more traction than any other FWD vehicle.

[@ronfarnsworth7074]

And ground clearance is sometimes the bigger issue.

[@artsmith103]

I would say the ratio is the opposite. AWD is about at least 1 or 2 tires having traction to move forward enough for other tires to get traction. Also to reduce the amount of force each tire needs to deliver. FWD Aptera will have same disadvantage as FWD sedan plus be trying to pull center wheel through bad snow.

[@DreyZee-vn3kl]

hope Aptera Expands and absorb/Acquire Elaphe or at least IP for the IWM and modify it to Aptera Specs and build it in USA.

[@danielthompson3928]

Right? Aptera could license its solar products and motors.

[@namenotshown9277]

You cant just throw a motor drive train into a vehicle, its a redesign of the front end, hub motors are low efficiency at low rpm, compared to a gear reduction motor, thats a fairly basic bit of engineering to have overlooked for a long time. Nothing particularly special about this motor/gearbox/diff/cv joint combo, they've found cheapest chinese mass produced system to put in. I suspect it will be quite a long process to redesign the front end, the whole suspension they have worked out will likely change, now they need to redesign/source, brakes, the vertical section that holds the brakes and suspension, and allows cv joint to join to the wheel. This is a major setback, the hubmotor simplified the design, but they overlooked the efficiency curves of hub motors. The are very much at prototype stage, this prototype stage will continue for a long time to come, until the money runs out pretty much. Arcimotor was the ideal opportunity to scoop up an already sourced and proven manufacture operation, they already had the front motor unit same as what aptera is now going for. We didn't see any new footage of PI builds, for a good reason, theres not much to show. I doubt even one protoype battery pack is completed and ready to go. The chance of getting any real world data is looking more and more remote. They have come along way but are nowhere near production, and as Elon Musk has said many times..........building prototypes is the easy bit!!! If they cant get going on prototypes, are still spruking same theoretical data which are not accurate in the real world scenario, and promising production next year, then I'm afraid its not looking good. I wish I could see this differently, I want them to succeed, but its just not going to happen at this rate.

[@ApteraOwnersClub]

Wow that was a lot of writing to be so completely wrong

[@artsmith103]

​@@ApteraOwnersClub You believe Aptera story of parallel design. Aptera legacy is it isn't true. Parallel design might mean only Plan B. If they couldn't adequately cool, or incorporate ABS nor regenerative brakes in Plan A, what makes you think they are further along on Plan B.

[@larry4fire]

I thought one reason for the hub motors was to lower the risk of rollovers. Three wheeled vehicles tend to roll more than 4 wheeled vehicles because their roll axis is along a line between the single wheel in the rear and one wheel in the front (inside wheel in a turn). In contrast a 4 wheeled vehicle’s roll axis is in the center of the vehicle making it more stable. I thought one reason the Elaphe hub motors were selected was for their ability to actively manage torque at each wheel on a microsecond basis. Elaphe called this torque vectoring. This was supposed to provide much better and safer handling in emergency maneuvers. It also eliminated the need for a differential. So will rollover safety be reduced with this new single motor configuration?

[@ronfarnsworth7074]

I won't pretend to know for sure but the heavy battery down low is a bigger factor for a low cg than the drive system. Seems to me the cg will be higher with the new drivetrain but not by much. Maybe they could use a different sway bar, see how the testing goes.

[@harriettanthony7352]

Let me add an after thought. The tendency of 'trikes' to tip is due to the wheels positions. The two wheels back/ and one wheel rear, is the tip over situation mentioned in this post, by my knowledge. Any parent who buys a three wheeled bicycle for a 04 yr old knows just how fast these things fall over.

[@larry4fire]

It will be interesting to see how this one motor drive train will handle the moose test, the Aptera handled this test brilliantly when driven by hub motors but of course with hub motors torque to each wheel can be adjusted a hundred times a second to produce incredible handling. A single motor configuration can’t do this. Here’s a link to Aptera taking on the moose test kzbin.info/www/bejne/b3O1kn6YjLaXrrssi=hv8jw_vsfOtorEI_

[@ronfarnsworth7074]

@@larry4fire It's more to do with cg than 3 vs 4 wheels. 4 wheel suv's flip over all the time for that reason. The heavy battery down low in evehicles gives them a low cg to start with. But you are right, the cg probably got a bit higher with the new drivetrain but not by a lot. A bigger sway bar may help. Let's see how it does in testing.

[@EnmandsBand1]

I never understood why a light, superefficient solar EV also needed to have a massive amount of power and all wheel drive. I'm perfectly fine with this change and if they could improve efficiency even more by turning down the power go for it please BTW I drive a front wheel drive Niro EV right now and I prefer front wheel drive as it is much safer in the winter.

[@TheLateSkeptic]

nice take. let's remove everything that 90% of the people buying it want. your suggestion would kill the company. You could just drive more efficient and get the same result.

[@harriettanthony7352]

Hey OP! Just for the 'fun of it' this writer drives a '19 Niro BEV. These are very fine EVs

[@ollmtm2012]

About Elaphe, they CLEARLY say that in 2022 COMPLETED the development of motors and ACHIEVE ANTICIPATED RESULTS. So CLEARLY they are more than ready. Aptera says they are not. So now I am even more disappointed with all this because the final take is that maybe the Aptera will never have all 3 hub motors but rather a combination. Really disappointed and my trust in Aptera is definitely not the same now.

[@AndyTernay]

Development is not production. A fully developed product may not have the funds to get to production.

[@ollmtm2012]

@@AndyTernay I don't think they don't have funds, the are not an a startup as many think. They have been in business for about 20 years. That Aptera doesn't have the $$$ to cover the price of hub motors is more probable(3 motors + 3 inverters vs 1 integrated). I think Aptera is trying to keep the price tag of the LE as low as possible and the hub motors are more expensive so there you have it, the Aptera with hub motors will be more expensive if it is ever made. Look for a recent interview with Elaphe CEO here on KZbin.

[@yoobb]

The 2900 Nm peak torque is a somewhat arbitrary number. Unlike ICE motors, electric motors have a constant power curve, i.e., able to produce the max power at any rpm. Theoretically, an electric motor can produce infinite torque at zero rpm. 2900 Nm is likely the max torque allowed by the EMR3’s internal controller. When used in an EV application, like Aptera, the EV’s motor control logic will further limit the max torque demand to a more reasonable value. i.e., to prevent wheel spinout or unnecessary wear on the tires.

[@cjwilson54]

I wonder how much this change was influenced by advice from Munro? Munro intimated that Aptera may switch from hub motors months ago.

[@tradetech7889]

So.. Aptera has finally learned Design rule 101. Keep it simple! They should of done this with numerous items on the vehicle, the seats, steering wheel etc etc IF they had of done they may well of been producing already and saved a ton of $$$

[@Okurka.]

But then they would have to stop the crowdfunding.

[@fynfynsidian1870]

201 HP is the same as my Veloster Turbo that weighs almost twice as much as the Aptera

[@CharlesAnsman]

New motor is only rated at 50 kw, that's nowhere near 200 hp

[@fotoguru222]

@@CharlesAnsman Maybe watch this video again. The center motor is rated for 150 KW peak (for accelerating) and 50 KW steady state (for cruising). As someone else commented, all you'll need for high speed (80 mph) cruising is around 12 KW.

[@core3547]

I’m totally fine with my Aptera being front wheel drive. I’ve lived in upstate New York my entire life. Our winters suck and I’ve never even owned an all wheel drive vehicle! My only hope with this change is that it will lower the price or at least keep it the same seeing how we have less motors and less wiring now.

[@glike2]

Availability of cheap wheels to buy for winter tires is a another good question. Hopefully they are not super expensive very specialized Wheels.

[@harriettanthony7352]

Some time back, Aptera did a video on wheels, tyres &tc. In summary; its a common rim and tyre type, unlike Tesla! I think the wheels are 15inch

[@ericpotter7954]

150 KW and 290 Nm is pretty similar to my 2017 Bolt.

[@GullWingInnMoclips]

,,,,which weighs about 1,400 pounds more than an Aptera... which will make a huge difference in performance.... unless you pile 8-10 people into the Aptera, a race between the two would be humiliating for your Bolt... which is no slouch off the line from what I'm told.

[@ericpotter7954]

@@GullWingInnMoclips Yep, 0-60 somewhere around 6.5 seconds.

[@GullWingInnMoclips]

@@ericpotter7954 That's the much heavier Bolt's 0-60, not the Aptera's.

[@ericpotter7954]

@@GullWingInnMoclips That's right, we won't have Aptera's until at least PI 2 is built. The website estimates 6 seconds, but I'm betting it'll be a little less than that.

[@proper2979]

If they are only going with front wheel drive , I will be ok with it if it’s just as efficient, and if price point is lowered to around upper 20 grand.

[@artsmith103]

Basic Apteta failure: Too expensive, too much productivity compromise, poor combination of trike limitations with promised fast performance.

[@feandil666]

good news, Elaphe looked dodgy. it would be great to have a hub motor for the back wheel for an AWD in the future, but a normal front powertrain makes a lot more sense.

[@kimbowilco]

I'm with you too. Good decision.

[@andrewfuller8440]

The bid players in automotive, don’t want any disruptions, they will not fund or allow funding if they can stop it. They don’t want any progress to happen!

[@andrewfuller8440]

With all the time slippage, I am amazed this wasn’t found earlier!

[@toni46]

This was probably in the works months ago. Definitely not just a last minute thing.

[@NeilBlanchard]

I hope that the EMR3 unit can be positioned so that the half shafts are *equal* length. Which looks like the motor itself would need to be shifted to the right? Having equal length half shafts would minimize torque steer. Edit: the motor peak torque may be different than the torque after the reduction gear/differential? If the reduction gear is 1:6 or 1:8, then the torque going to the wheels would be multiplied by the inverse of the gear ratio - I think?

[@jonathonalsop2120]

I drove in Ontario for 20 winters in a FWD car with all season tires. The last 5 years I’ve driven a FWD car with winter tires, but the 3 wheeled nature of the Aptera really made me want AWD if I got it, so I’m curious to see it in snow/ice. I think FWD single motor is great for efficiency, and I question now if AWD ever gets offered. Are Elaphe and Aptera still actively working together, or is that suspended for the time being?

[@phileasler5401]

Would rather have a fwd vehicle any day. More efficient, lighter, less expensive, less expensive to repair. Unless one live in the snowbelt ❄️ go fwd👍

[@davidbeal6925]

I think it's absolutely the right decision for Aptera, they need to get going on production. But it's not right for me. I am pretty married to the hub motor solution for my own reasons that I won't go into. But the issue that will be most common is the all wheel drive is extremely important to me. While it's true with the right tires it would almost certainly handle all weather situations in my mountain home, California doesn't care it's all wheel drive or snow addons. Snow chains would of course out of the question, I can't imagine Aprera has the clearance. Cables are a maybe but I'd have to go with snow socks due to instation limitations. I've found they work quite well, better than cables actually, but sheriff's police and CHP don't seem to all know that they are legal in CA. That leads to headaches as well as the hassle of putting them on in the first place. It's often done in the snow or freezing rain when I'm coming home from the valley areas. As badly as I want my Aptera, even to point of havi g considered putting in 10k (really glad i didn't now) I don't see myself taking delivery till they can deliver hub motors.

[@davidmarlow194]

The handling will not be as good as having a seperat motor for each front wheel, no tork vectoring to reduve thr turning radius. This motor has more power to just the front wheels. So it will need tork reduction on accelleration to stop the wheels mfrom spinning with loss of steering control. Also anti lock brakes with traction control will have to be added as that control could be done with the seperate motors. Using the brakes for control will result in some loss of effiency and faster brake pad failure. It will drive like all of the other FWD single motor cars that you mentioned. Not even close to the Gamma. But I do agree that waiting any more is not what is good to do. Now I have a 600 mile version on order that I will not accept without 3 motors. I do not believe that the Union edition will not be accetable without 3 motors as that is what they test drove.

[@ramhammer10-4]

First and foremost, It better be cheaper than the all wheel drive. Second i think there is some chance that this vehicle will not come to fruition.

[@jackgreenstalk777]

Viewers called this in first video. Good eyes and ears out there

[@ddessert6]

Having a proven drivetrain and its availability is a very good thing! It appears that the EMR3 is air cooled? I have not been able to find data on this. Has anyone looked carefully at the renderings of your Aptera LE on your configuration page? Specifically the front view and side/back view are of interest. The front view looks to have a dimple below the lightbar. I would have expected to see the drive shaft in the front view as I suspect the center rod is still the steering control arm. There appears to be a distinctive line on the side where the belly pan would have met the side. It is no longer rounded. I'm guessing this is helping with airflow.

[@DaBinChe]

I think they are using the V3 cause it is tried and proven while the V4 is too new and not proven yet. I'm glad for the inboard motor. Think the pros of hub motors do not outweigh the cons. While the pros of inboard motors more than outweighs the cons.

[@dennisfahey2379]

That is a huge change and ripples to the cooling, the undercarriage, braking etc. They are not shipping for two years minimum - IF they don't run out of money first. This is such a dramatic change and did not happen overnight. They should have disclosed this to all investors including the round that just opened up. People were lead to believe they would ship this year. I assume the rear in-wheel motor is gone as well. So this is now an electric trike. Continuous power is 50KW. Solar Charging is 700W. How does this impact the solar claims?

[@nomadic_brink]

Didn't know you were so much about "the vibe", Steve. 😅 The storytelling is hilarious.👏

[@RbNetEngr]

So if there was a significant delay in getting the Elaphe hub motors, what has Aptera been using to power all of the test and proof of concept models? Were they using older Elaphe motors, but Aptera was designing a custom hub motor with Elaphe? I don't like the idea of the Vitesco solution because there will be drive axles and CV joints used to transmit power from the motor to the front wheels. This could change the turn radius. And CV joints wear out, boots get torn and leak grease, and the exposed axles will quickly have surface rust and look awful unless the drive axles are enclosed and not visible. Big disappointment.

[@boywonder5179]

Great sleuthing on the motors, Steve!

[@DavidHendry]

Elaphe provides a superior solution but Aptera has to scale up quickly and get product out the door to survive. Elaphe likely can not expand production quickly enough to accommodate without a huge infusion of cash. Hopefully Aptera vehicles sell enough in future to allow them to buy Elaphe as keeping motor production in house would be beneficial long term. With the EMR3, I doubt there will be space to cram 100 KWH of batteries for the 1000 mile version but that can wait.

[@ModernNeandertal]

How does this Aptera handle the Moose test is my question?

[@brucebender5917]

This is a couple years old, but --> kzbin.info/www/bejne/a6jMaqt7i61po7c

[@larry4fire]

With single motor FWD I would guess not as well as a similar size conventional vehicle as 3 wheel vehicles are inherently less stable. With three hub motors stability should be dramatically improved if torque vectoring is used.

[@netscrooge]

Yes, winter tires make a huge difference. Even in Michigan, unless you work in a hospital or similar, front wheel drive and winter tires are usually sufficient.

[@lsh3rd]

Especially when 2/3 of the weight is on the front wheels. Aptera should be better than any other FWD vehicle.

[@AverageJoe928]

Totally agree. I've lived in northern New England for decades and have never owned AWD. I don't get why it's important for so many people.

[@Tekaisuwu]

If you’re considering giving up your spot or delaying your reservation for any reason, I’d be thrilled to swap spots with you! I’m currently around 42,000th on the reservation list for Aptera because I somehow only discovered them about a year ago. Since then, I’ve been absolutely obsessed with the vehicle. :) (Sorry if you’ve seen this before, I’m searching far and wide 😂)

[@marcsyrene3781]

Definitely need awd for my application.. yes most people drive awd here in the mountains of colorado. This is a pretty light vehicle so awd is must for plowing through deep snow.

[@artsmith103]

Nice summary. I would say in snow country now, most are AWD. I think your old info is correct, just dated.

[@randyland1000]

Was waiting for your analysis! thanks.