Interview with Elaphe (Aptera's former drivetrain) at CES

[@deanmcmanis9398]

I met the Elaphe engineers at the Aptera Gamma unveiling during the Fully Charged show in San Diego a few years ago. They were very friendly and well informed (as Luca is) and there were high hopes for the in-wheel motor design. I do understand that Aptera needed to move their design forward with the traditional motor, to begin production ASAP. But I really hope that soon after production begins (and the IPO brings in more funding) that I can get my 2nd Aptera with an Elaphe rear wheel motor. 🚗🌞

[@Rich1Rodriguez]

Exactly

[@9Eighty5Tech]

I completely understand all the reasons for going with Vitesco/Schaeffler. It’s hard to be a startup. It’s twice as hard banking on another startup.

[@jwvandegronden]

Loved your questions! Straightforward but polite, well informed and with follow throughs when needed. And the tech (Luca?) was an absolute gem! Well done both of you!! (not meant to be condescending, loved every minute)

[@CaptMatt1]

I also visited the Elaphe booth @ CES and they alluded to a third party company that was working on the inverters that couldn't have them done in time for aptera's production timeline.

[@lucianbakerii4047]

Steve Fambro hinted on the reason for the shift to Vitesco EMR3. Aptera is writing “a mountain of code”. Much easier to write code for one EMR3 than 3 Elaphe hub motors. The control mentioned by the Elaphe engineer is the code. Aptera needs to control the code to enable OTA updates.

[@garywozniak7742]

The reasons seem to change.

[@lsh3rd]

@@garywozniak7742 I suspect it is a combination of reasons.

[@ericpotter7954]

My understanding was that Aptera also couldn't manufacture the power inverter(s) at scale, whereas the EMR3 has one built-in.

[@professionalelectronics3158]

That's too bad... but also it seems that it's easier to write code for a single motor rather than doing the vectoring thing for three separate motors. This unfortunately means that the Launch Edition EM3 Apteras will be rather poor in snow.

[@northernsouler]

Thank you, Steve, for approaching Elaphe. I'm still fascinated with their products.

[@esrandl]

That makes a ton of sense that Aptera would still go with a hub motor in rear, and Elaphe is still in the wings regarding. Keeping fingers crossed...

[@ccibinel]

Why mix vendors for the drivetrain - sounds like more code / headaches / supply issues - Vitesco / Schaeffler also has an in wheel motor.

[@mpetty9947]

@@ccibinel Oh that's interesting that Vit / Schaef already has an in wheel motor.

[@jeffreymerriam7025]

My guess (and its just a guess) is that Elaphe needed more money up front because they are also still a startup. So Aptera went with an established brand so they can start production on less money

[@adimchionyenadum2962]

@@jeffreymerriam7025 But the video says exactly the opposite.

[@smwoodson]

Thanks for asking some good questions

[@gr8dvd]

As always, just wished some follow-up when Elaphe suggested 3-4y to nail a deal (buyer) for high production. With all the advantages noted, what if any technical challenges remain to scale?

[@AverageJoe928]

I think Aptera made the right call with moving to the EMR3 motor. It's a proven product that reduces project risk, and it removes the need to have high voltage cables external to the vehicle body (which could be a serious safety risk in an accident). Hoping that future Aptera designs continue using the EMR3/EMR4 motor up front and a low power hub motor in the rear. Allows AWD and could potentially increase efficiency slightly if designed correctly.

[@lsh3rd]

They made the right call since they own the data to support the decision.

[@billsmith5960]

They made the wrong call. Hub motors are more efficient. Plus the axles kill the aero efficiency. It's a fact because for the last 4 years I was told that by the Aptera experts.

[@netscrooge]

As for safety, air bag deployment triggers EVs to cut off their high voltage. Aptera should be able to cut the power to the in-wheel motors following front end damage.

[@AverageJoe928]

@@netscrooge but the difference between Aptera and other vehicles is that the wheels extend significantly from the body. It's not unreasonable to envision an accident where there is only damage to a wheel that wouldn't trigger the airbags. I'd hope that Aptera would have planned for that type of failure mode, but I personally feel more confident now that it's all enclosed within the main body of the vehicle.

[@stevemontana1878]

@@billsmith5960 Hubs motors are the best way to go for sure. The question, though, is whether they are the best way at this moment in time for the Aptera Company, not the just for the car’s efficiency

[@ThalanorThornhale]

It looks like the time lines did not mash up for the first production vehicles. Aptera: 1 year. Elaphe: 3 years

[@artboymoy]

Honestly at this point, I feel the Aptera would just need the rear wheel and it wouldn't even have to be operating all the time. I have a Toyota RAV4 Hybrid AWD and the rear motor just really kicks in when getting off the line. After a few seconds it turns off and the FWD works the rest of the time. And Steve asked the right question about a smaller HP motor. Aptera doesn't need al that power and maybe a less powerful motor being used in the fashion I said, wouldn't need a whole lot of cooling, making it easier to integrate in future versions. Good interview and camera work on this one, Steve, although I know you probably dindn't want to push people out of the way to get a better look at the motor from the other side. Because that's where all the guts of it were.

[@gr8dvd]

Cruising at highway speed recall speculation doing opposite of RAV4…. running only rear IWM may be most efficient on Aptera.

[@netscrooge]

​@@gr8dvd I agree, but first they will need to switch to a front motor that doesn't add drag when off.

[@adimchionyenadum2962]

So after all Aptera's decision to transition away from in wheel motors was not Elaphe's fault but Aptera's strategic decision. Thanks for bringing out this fact.

[@mpetty9947]

I was under the impression that they switched from Elaphe for potential rebate / tariff liabilities.

[@Aa792]

Great questions 👍

[@StewartWright]

If they can get the product on the road it's good then cheaper variants will come with mass production

[@suunraze]

Great journalism

[@billsmith5960]

I'm glad you never brought up what Aptera put in their SEC filing about Elaphe. I hope we can keep that a secret.

[@9Eighty5Tech]

Even 20kg of unsprung weight each for 50 hp motors on the front of a very light car may be a real challenge.

[@garywozniak7742]

The Alpha, Beta, and Gamma prototypes all have the Elaphe hub motors. It is disappointing that they dropped them.

[@christopherbarrett9749]

My goodness, it seems like the good feelings toward one another is still there. No hard feelings were expressed by the engineer. He was gentlemenly when he commeted about it not being able to happen, and when donut was brought into the mix, he did not cringe. Torque vectoring will not be able to be accomplished without the in-wheel motors in all of the wheels. Placing a kicker in the rear might make highway efficency better, but the faster acceleration seems to be off the table for now.

[@jamesengland7461]

Torque vectoring can be done with software and brakes, though it's more efficient with dual motors. It's not needed except for maximum sporting road performance.

[@Soothsayer210]

I wish someone asked the same question to Steve/ Chris about why they dumped Elaphe and their hub motors.

[@ab3000x]

A hub motor for the rear wheel makes perfect sense but not for the front wheels. Just my two cents.

[@garywozniak7742]

The independent control that the three hub motor would have provided will not be matched by the mixed drivetrain.

[@debriefthat]

I understand why they went away from Elaphe, but I still miss them. I hope they get used for the AWD version (super happy to hear this at 7:00).

[@byrnc927]

I still wonder about torque steer.

[@DemaGeek]

Very interesting conversation with Elaphe, Steve, they sound ready to go, on several fronts. I do hope that Aptera goes back to a collaboration with them once the major funding has been secured.

[@GNiessen]

Good info.

[@williamread8186]

I always thought the hub motor concept was really cool. From this discussion it seems like perhaps at this time these companies were not a good fit.

[@byrnc927]

Perhaps the AWD Aptera will have an in-wheel motor for the rear wheel? Answers to my question is in the video.

[@davidtiemeyer7580]

Sadly, I missed this booth at CES. Your interview filled in some missing pieces as to why Aptera drifted away from Elaphe for the Launch Edition. Were you able to sleuth out how a second Vitesco motor might drive the rear wheel?

[@richpate9436]

Today's "Aptera EV engineering class" was very interesting. Would be good to see a comparison of specs between the Vitesco/Schaffler engine and the Aptera-sized Elaphe hub motors. Like power/weight ratio, total produced h.p., total torque and cost. Thanks Steve.

[@stevemontana1878]

I don’t know Elaphe’s overall situation or condition, but based on Luca’s description of their current state, this is a great example of how to manage a startup’s risk. Being ready for low volume production until your market drives the funding might be more expensive in the long run. It might take longer to get your volume out to satisfy your customers. But, most importantly it reduces your startup risk by lowering the capital hurdle. Later funding becomes low risk investments to lower operating costs in a proven market and, therefore, are much easier to obtain. Of course, if the market isn’t there while in a low volume operating environment, then investor skepticism was warranted and Aptera has bigger problems than funding.

[@kevroll99]

That's a sweet new motor just like Donut Lab the future is coming quickly!

[@ztyhurst]

I wonder if there would be a market for them to make a hybrid add on system. They could sell 2 wheels, and a set of electronics and we could install them in older cars to make them more reliable and efficient.

[@nononsenseBennett]

How is it cooled?

[@artboymoy]

On Gamma I believe the ran some coolant lines to the motors. I could be wrong though.

[@tims8603]

Liquid cooling lines run to the motor.

[@nononsenseBennett]

@@tims8603 Interesting. However, constant vibration/movement of cooling lines and electrical lines could be an issue?

[@tims8603]

@ The coolant lines are silicone and are fastened to the lower A arm. Yes they flex but it's not like they're bent in two and bent back and forth. There's several inches of area where they can flex.

[@macgreiner]

Luka was great.

[@elmonte7834]

Can someone summarize if there is anything here about Aptera?

[@chrisbailey5055]

there is.

[@williamhester6998]

They start talking about Aptera at about 6:20 in the video.

[@jeffbertuleit5848]

Good interview by not asking about Aptera at first, but he answered the question why Aptera needed to go to another solution, not ready for high volume production yet and therefore end cost concerns and not enough units time tested. In other words too risky when everything else is also new. Sadly these guys always shoot for the moon and not go for cost conscious production. Let qualified car, marine, and air small companies do beta testing and validation. Nice that he was diplomatic in answering use in Aptera. I wish them luck.

[@tims8603]

At least the volume is better on this video. The in studio volume is very low.

[@nononsenseBennett]

Deeper dive please

[@DaBinChe]

40kilos is a lot of unsprung and rotational mass!

[@billsmith5960]

I agree. I think that the Aptera would not be able to pass the moose test with the Elaphe hub motors.

[@SchwuppSchwupp]

What is the weight of a hub plus the break without motor of a 800 kW car? Maybe 40 kg is not too far off, but I never had a car like this to compare.

[@ericpotter7954]

The switch from Elaphe to Vitesco, the ginormous radiator scoop vice skin cooling, and the lack of skateboard pedals are all very disappointing to me. I hope Aptera is able to bring those features back in 2.0

[@Rich1Rodriguez]

As I suspected, Elaphe was unable or unwilling to get financing for Aptera’s volume needs. Not sure how creative their financial management is…. Aptera will have to circle back to an in-wheel design after first few thousand Aptera Roadsters are produced. Too bad, that design change will cost Aptera money…. Charge on!

[@billsmith5960]

You know the reason why. It's in the Aptera SEC filings.. Plus, look at how Elaphe got burned by the last two startups. Do you think they want to do that a third time?

[@YEE941]

Donut lab has surpassed them

[@danam0228]

Sorry, but can people stop using phrase "OEM manufacturers" in place of the word automakers. It is inaccurate and redundant. OEM (Original Equipment Manufacturer) is used to describe parts that originally came on a car when brand new or are replacement parts that are identical to those that originally came on a car when brand new as made by the Original Equipment Manufacturer, whether they are made by the automaker themselves or a parts supplier such as Bosch, Denso, Magna, ZF, etc. To state it a different way, companies such as GM and aptera are automakers. Companies such as Bosch and elaphe are parts suppliers. OEM is to decribe any parts that are originally on a car when brand new or are exact replacements as originally made by the automaker and parts supplier. All other parts that are not OEM are considered to be aftermarket parts.

[@juan.2438]

I asked Elaphe at Linkedin about this, is sad

[@Soothsayer210]

I really hope that Aptera re-introduces Hub Motors in their design. I am delaying my purchase for trhat.

[@daiesison]

Sadly maybe 2029. Not joking given current speed

[@nutzeeer]

aptera didnt ditch them. they will use them when they are ready.

[@tims8603]

Just my opinion but I think they'll keep the single motor in front and add an IWM in the rear.

[@randyland1000]

Good interview just moved up one spot! lol

[@AverageJoe928]

​@@tims8603 I think this is the best setup. It removes the risk of exposing HV cables if front hub motors were used.

[@gmy33]

40kg per wheel !!!? .. i m happy aptera doesnt have this !!!! .. i did testdrive this e moto bike with same style proppulsion it was extrenely fun and powerfull .. but indeed shaky .. and not well suited for old roads .. unsprung weight is a btch

[@rviscariello]

So nobody's talking... we still don't know why they dropped the hub motors other than their spin. All I know is the car is less unique, less quick. To me, the hub motor was a major part of what made Aptera, Aptera. Seeing the thick wire to the hub motors is akin to seeing four exhausts pipes on the back of a sports car. You know the thing is fast. You know the thing is special. Going from 4 second 0 to 60 to 6. Second is a order of magnitude difference. It makes the car a completely different class than what it was.

[@billsmith5960]

The reason is in the SEC filing. As an Aptera fan, I know we all look through those with a fine tooth comb. So, no reason to repeat what is already in print.