Arcane Trickster Spell Guide for D&D 5e

[@stefanbeck2913]

If a player playing an Arcane Trickster rogue wants to assume they are keeping mage hand up all the time an easy way to handle it is to have them roll a d10-1 whenever they roll initiative for combat and that's the number of rounds remaining before they would have to recast it.

[@SpikeRosered]

I'm nicer so I just have them roll a 1d6 and subtract that number from 10 to see how many rounds they have left.

[@oOPPHOo]

@@SpikeRosered And I'm mean. I don't believe a person, not even an adventurer, would actually want to cast a spell 960 times per day every single day. I could make exceptions if you have something like the telekinetic feat so that it doesn't require compenents. But something like the guidance spell, which effectively requires you to utter a prayer every minute, wouldn't fly. If it doesn't bother you, it would bother your party members or anyone else who stay around you for more than 10 minutes.

[@Indigo1559]

@@oOPPHOo because of something like this, my dm and I reworked guidance so that it's basically like a bardic inspiration I can give out at the end of each short rest

[@Indigo1559]

@@oOPPHOo because of something like this, my dm and I reworked guidance so that it's basically like a bardic inspiration I can give out at the end of each short rest

[@dashua1735]

​@@oOPPHOo What if my character would?

[@lordspaz88]

32:17 the real benefit of Spell Thief is that the enemy can't cast that spell anymore. The opportunity to shut down an enemy from their favortie/most powerful spell should not go overlooked

[@cinnamon4life]

Oh this is awesome! I just yesterday started my first d&d campaign ever as a rogue going for arcane trickster. Thank you for this.

[@AntoineVello]

So when Chris mentions that it is up to the DM for the bucket on Phantasmal Force, I will point this out to you guys. Blindness/Deafness is a second level spell as Phantasmal Force. You are currently imitating a spell of the same level.

[@a.spirit8408]

Quick notes (since I've been obsessing about Arcane Trickster builds for my character for a year now) - Ritual Casting feat is great for utility spells, gets you Find Familiar, and allows you to pick up Shield from AT open spell. Blindness / deafness combos with Magical Ambush for a 2nd level spell and doesn't take concentration. Not the best, but not the worst. Nothing close to the level 13 boost with Hypnotic Pattern and Fear. Level 3 open slot is likely going to be Counterspell if I get there. Like with Shield and Shadow Blade, the advantage of Counterspell is it doesn't interfere with my rogue attack / sneak attack. If anyone plays till level 20, then the level 20 rogue ability guarantees one Counterspell success per short rest even against a level 9 spell. Edit: I keep thinking Haste is a level 4 spell. Yeah, definitely gonna experiment with Haste with the level 3 open slot.

[@M0ebius]

If you like Arcane Trickster builds, this is IMO the strongest AT overall: cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/671379654686277645/671380638741561344/Ronins_Hexblade_AT_build_breakdown.pdf

[@TheGodPoing]

Forget ritual caster, even a single wiz lv will give you: ritual caster, 6 spells, the ability to learn even more spell (spell book is op), and just by multiclassing to a wiz you will help you on your spell progression. and if your doing that get another lv to join a school (divination school is brokken)

[@a.spirit8408]

@M0ebius Ooh that looks like a fun build! Thanks. It's a nice 50/50 between Rogue-y and Arcane-y. For a more Rogue-y less Arcane-y build, it's worth looking into only dipping into Artificer. Both being INT based helps. And one can stop at either 1, 2 , or 3 level dip, depending on what they want. 1 level dip gets you good AC, Cure Wounds, Faerie Fire, Arcane Weapon. Also gets CON saves if starting with it. 2 levels gets Returning Weapon and / or another infusion. (Goggles of Night for my Variant Human) 3 levels gets either Battle Smith (extra body, SAD on INT) or Armorer (best armor for a rogue who is still a rogue. Lightning based sneak attack!) --- Or just throw all optimization aside and go 2 Warlock for Misty Visions and do whatever the F you want XD

[@a.spirit8408]

@@TheGodPoing there are pros and cons to that. Spell progression is a great thing for AT, getting to early upcast Shadow Blade is big. And there are some great emergency and ritual 1st level spells that the dip will get. Unfortunately, the dip only gets 1st level rituals (because its progression is based on Wizard levels). But picking up Ritual Caster feat gets me Leomund's tiny hut at level 5 (regardless of other multiclassing) and water breathing at level 7. Since I'm the only utility caster in my party (don't ask), Ritual Caster serves my purposes better and doest slow my AT damage and class feature progression

[@M0ebius]

A. Spirit Artificer works too if slightly less efficient. At Artificer 2 you can also take Repeating Shot + Shield and go Crossbow Expert.

[@maltheopia]

One other thing: if you have Find Familiar out, you can use it to get around the most annoying part of non-Dimension Door teleportation -- needing to see where you're teleporting. I have been screwed over before by magical darkness or being swallowed whole or just being unable to teleport through a murder hole high up and Find Familiar + Misty Step has my back.

[@maltheopia]

@@sharkforce8147 That's why I said non-Dimension Door. If you're rolling Misty Step or Thunderous Step, sight is a huge limitation.

[@KeizerSosebee]

@@maltheopia you can also go into warlock for devil sight

[@maltheopia]

@@KeizerSosebee Devil's Sight only helps with magical darkness. It doesn't help if you want to teleport past a hole that's too high up for you to see into. Or if you're in the belly of some monster. Or if it's just really foggy out.

[@KeizerSosebee]

@@maltheopia true but it was magical darkness that was mentioned

[@maltheopia]

@@KeizerSosebee Find Familiar is a much smaller investment than Devil's Sight. 13 CHA and two levels is pretty stiff for a class that only gets 2nd-level spells at level 9.

[@Meichrob7]

For the unrestricted 3rd level spell I’ve often found Haste to be very beneficial. It obviously depends on the campaign but for pure glass cannon capabilities, it’s really useful. For the purposes of making that reaction attack on another turn for the second sneak attack per round, haste is one of the most reliable ways to do it and nearly guarantee you have advantage on both of those attacks. Once you’re under the effects of haste you can use your bonus action to hide and then your haste action to make a single weapon attack, then you can use your normal action to ready an attack to trigger once your familiar takes the help action. This is very much a glass cannon play style since you’re using your reaction so you can’t reduce damage, and you’re not staying hidden for long so the enemies can target you. However for the purposes of functioning as a damage dealer in your party it’s exceedingly useful and nearly doubled your damage output during the fight you use it. If you have very few combats per day or often have one that’s significantly stronger than the rest, I think this is arguably the best 3rd level spell to take.

[@fiddlincricket]

I definitely wondered why this option was not discussed in the video. From an optimization standpoint this is the most consistent way to guarantee 2 SA per round.

[@TheRobversion1]

Yeah i wondered too why it wasnt mentioned. I would personally take haste at 3rd as well. I leave the control responsibilities to the spellcaster. The only spell i would consider over haste is counterspell

[@Klaital1]

Personally I don't think there is really any other choice for 3rd level unlimited spell than Counterspell, that spell is just SO good.

[@seanjardine3128]

Rodrik18 I’m at a crossroads with my Arcane Trickster, my Dex is 20, Con 16, and I just took the Fey touched feat at level 8 to get my abysmal wisdom score to an 8, misty step and bless or hex (undecided). By now I don’t know what to do with the remaining asi, I could improve my intelligence of 14 to improve my spell save DC, take the skilled feat to compliment reliable talent, lucky, warcaster, and sharpshooter are also in contention. I normally wouldn’t take sharpshooter for a Rogue but I have a plus 2 bow with bracers of archery and if I get it a level 12 I will be able to cast haste on myself soon. If my sneak attack lands on my first attack I could use a power shot on my second and keep my reaction freed up for shield spell or uncanny dodge. Thoughts? I have no idea what to do

[@seanjardine3128]

Rodrik18 wow. Awesome thanks I really like the Gift of Alacrity spell, the cleric in my party will be so happy. Boosting intelligence isn’t sexy but it might be the best play. I have shadow blade and suggestion (yuan-Ti) so warcaster isn’t useless, but my party consist of a blaster wizard, shadow sorcerer, tortle tempest cleric and a Goliath barbarian. I’m finding as the party levels up I’m more effective staying back and protecting the squishy spell casters while the cleric and barbarian tank.

[@bacchus8081]

Gloomstalker 5 - Arcane Trickster X with Elven Accuracy and Sharpshooter is one of my favorite builds. I'm really looking forward to seeing what Tasha's Cauldron of Everything will offer in terms of Class Variant options for the ranger because that could get REALLY dirty.

[@ChristnThms]

Thank you for including so much commentary on utility. So often, the ONLY thing I see discussed with Rogues is damage.

[@M0ebius]

In the TM Discord the discussion on Rogue damage is mostly about how they suck at it.

[@robinthrush9672]

Do you frequent World of Warcraft rogue discussions?

[@ChristnThms]

@@robinthrush9672 nope, and since the ONLY thing in common is the name of the class...

[@robinthrush9672]

@@ChristnThms Hey, WoW rogues use daggers, have stealth, and an assassin build. :-P

[@ChristnThms]

@@robinthrush9672 those are words, with entirely different mechanics. Utterly meaningless in this conversation. Claiming to have a parakeet who speaks Russian while surfing adds just as much.

[@vitordias4700]

I wanted to play an Arcane Trickster but my party already had 3 melee strikers AND didn't have a dedicated Arcanist, so instead I did my best to make a full caster arcane trickster using Lore Bard and I would 100% recommend to anyone who likes this type of character and doesn't care about Sneak Attack. Very very fun.

[@fredericbard6523]

At first I was thinking "no way mirror image and sentinel interact like that"...then I looked up of there was a ruling on Sage Advice and sure enough there is and Treantmonk is completely correct that they do interact that way. Consider my mind blown.

[@johneubank8543]

Same here. I am today days old when I first heard of this. It's pretty crazy - and thanks to Treantmonk for sharing it with us!

[@Jerzzylo]

It makes sense flavourwise. You have mirror images around you and our enemy targets one at random believing it to be you. Sentinel works by making an attack when your opponent is distracted while attacking something other than you. This is how I make sense of it at least.

[@lordduskblade]

Was also looking forward to this one. AT is the best Rogue subclass by a mile in my opinion.

[@chrislyngar9081]

I had one of the best moments ever with an arcane trickster with silent image and a tempest cleric. We were in combat with a few enemies and we had a large number of enemies, just out of sight, but we knew they were there. I finished the enemies we were fighting with a thunderwave, and in the same round, the trickster used his silent image to create an image of a cave in. The DM determined that the thunderwave made the image more believable because the cave in was accompanied by a thundering noise.

[@abyssflight3907]

darkness is a good choice for 2nd lvl spell, mix it with a bat familiar or mage hand and you can move the darkness around for good battlefield control!

[@ankitk236]

Just have your friendly cleric cast a healing spell at you and then steal it... Boom... Now you are a temporary cleric

[@onslaught5012]

But if you successfully steal the spell from the friendly cleric, they cannot cast the spell for next 8 hrs...only you can... unless they have other healing spells to use during this time?

[@godsamongmen8003]

As long as they have more than one healing spell. A paladin could "give" you aura of vitality and leave you to concentrate on the healing aura instead of the tank doing it.

[@arsarma1808]

Much like Eldritch Knight, this is my favorite Rogue archetype. However, unlike Eldritch knight, blade cantrips are a definite improvement to DPR over most other rogue types. This is a large reason why I chose for my Paladin/Rogue build I did a while back in AL. Having shield and uncanny dodge on a paladin, who often doesn't have a reaction.

[@Klaital1]

Rather surprised that you didn't make any mention of Invisibility as a 2nd level spell option. Or Misty Step as the unrestricted 2nd level spell, or Counterspell as the unrestricted 3rd level spell, as those are all spells I like for Arcane Trickster.

[@johneubank8543]

All good to consider. Since we can use a bonus action to disengage, Misty Step is much less valuable for us compared to normal casters, however - though it can still be useful. At this level our Counterspell is less useful because we can't upcast it - and enemy casters are often casting at higher levels (though a lvl 3 counterspell can work). I think Chris was focused on making use of the amazing Magical Ambush and maximizing its potential - and let someone else in the party do Counterspell. A disadvantage on a control spell is _deadly_. My shadow sorc does this all the time, and it can totally change a fight. Also, does your DM let you do the Sneak ability and move - largely unseen - maybe at half speed. If so Invis is less valuable. Many DMs let you use sneak more to hide in place.

[@Klaital1]

@@johneubank8543 You need something to hide behind to be able to hide, it doesn't matter how high your stealth is if your on an open field as an example. Also you can use invisibility on someone else too, you might not need it to sneak past someone, but that fighter or paladin will. And yes magical ambush is great, but you don't really need to have that many different spells to use with it, like say Phantasmal Force and Hypnotic Pattern are plenty enough already.

[@johneubank8543]

@@Klaital1 You seem to not have noticed that my comment was prefaced on my asking what your DM allows - maybe I should have explained it more - some DMs have played computer games where you can stealth and move - some DMs played older versions of DnD where maybe you could try moving while hiding - yes, normally and probably by RAW you do need something to hide behind in 5e - but in other systems you can hide in shadows and move slowly. Some players might not want much choice in control spells, others will want variety. Phantasmal Force and HP are not effective on a wide variety of monsters. I'm not saying you're wrong to point out what you point out. I'm saying your mileage may vary.

[@varasatoshi3961]

Hold person is absolutely lethal as an arcane trickster. Not only do you get advantage, but attacks within 5 feet of the target are automatic crits. At level 7 when we theoretically get this spell, we’re doing possibly 2d8+5+8d8

[@shanekayat3217]

It does require a slightly MAD build though, so it might not be an auto pick. You can still play an Arcane Trickster with low INT, it just means you can't pick all the nice spells (like Hold Person) but it's still a viable build.

[@varasatoshi3961]

Shane Kayat it’s just a lot of damage plus some control

[@shanekayat3217]

@@varasatoshi3961 that it is. When you've got high INT it's great.

[@maltheopia]

Hold Person isn't also that good of a spell in most campaigns anyway, doubly so for the Arcane Trickster. I'd rather pick something that I know I would or at least could use every day (like Shadow Blade or Mirror Image or Phantasmal Force) instead of just praying that the DM is going to drop a humanoid.

[@thomaspeters8023]

Hold Person is very awkward for an AT because you cast it and then have to wait an entire round to attack. That's two saving throws against a not excellent DC which is asking for an awful lot. Better to have someone else in the party cast it for you and set you up.

[@logancuster8035]

Surprised that the Suggestion spell didn’t come up. Seems like it would have extraordinary out of combat application with magical ambush.

[@carlosdevoto798]

Suggestion also has great out-of-combat utility for a trickster character. It's a perfect fit thematically.

[@justmonica9253]

No mention of invisibility? I'd say it's the best 2nd level spell for arcane tricksters.

[@maltheopia]

Invisibility tends to be overkill for most rogues at the level Arcane Tricksters get it. You get Reliable Talent at level 11 so with Expertise in Stealth and both of your ASIs in Dexterity you can't roll below a 23 for your stealth, which is enough to defeat the passive perception of CR20 ancient brass dragons. And most monsters will never get anywhere near that high. I'd only pick Invisibility if your DM requires you to do a lot of sneaking but also steadfastly refuses to give you cover or concealment OR they have a very Gygaxian viewpoint of Stealth rules (i.e. if you ever lose concealment, you auto-lose stealth).

[@hikarishonen9288]

Well you don't have to put invisibility on yourself, you can give it to players that aren't really sneaky, which can be very helpful.

[@johneubank8543]

Good point. See invis can be very useful, as a lot of DMs don't let you easily sneak past creatures that can see an area. If you can't be seen and use Sneak to make no noise, that can be very powerful. But if a DM lets you sneak around, even at half speed, and usually not be seen, invis is less useful for an AT. See Invis is a very useful spell but is highly situational. And rogues eventually get a form of blindsight, so at that point it's much less useful. And iirc it's not illusion or enchantment.

[@SodaPopBarbecue]

@@johneubank8543 It's Illusion in 5e.

[@johneubank8543]

@@SodaPopBarbecue see invis is Divination in 5e.

[@williambennett7935]

Arcane Tricksters are one of the few situations when Shadow Blade can be useful as it can combine with Booming or GFB since a Rogue can Cunning Action disengage to avoid getting hit (to maintain concentration) and trigger Booming Blade damage and have advantage in dim light/darkness which will grant your sneak attack too.

[@godsamongmen8003]

Or if you have have the mobile feat you can get away and use your cunning action to hide.

[@williambennett7935]

Gods Among Men Good point, probably a better choice at first than War Caster - unless you know you are fighting a lot of AoE enemies.

[@godsamongmen8003]

@@williambennett7935 Fog cloud can be a good way to make things difficult for casters. You lose your advantage in the cloud, but you can still use party members to get your sneak attack damage. Attack, move away, hide, repeat.

[@williambennett7935]

Gods Among Men With Find Familiar, the Trickster should have an “ally” (DM permitting) within 5 feet at all times in a Fog Cloud even if Adv and Disadv cancel out. There’s no reason to not be doing Sneak Attack almost every round with Booming Blade frequently triggering and maybe Shadow Blade - depending on what you’re conc on or if a Wizard/Druid/Tempest Cleric cast Fog Cloud. At around level 11-13 during the BBEG fight, Tricksters can be doing 6d6+2d8+3d8 (+3d8) which would be 40-50 dmg reliably.

[@godsamongmen8003]

@@williambennett7935 I personally wouldn't allow the familiar an ally because it doesn't pose a real threat all on its own. I might make an exception for the warlock pact familiars since at least they can attack.

[@oniminikui]

For my cat burglar arcane tricksters, Mending and Prestidigitation are a must. Clean up any evidence is dire.

[@ianmccullough3846]

I'm playing an AT now and loving it. I wanted to advocate a one level dip in Wizard. You get 6 first level spells (4 extra preps for my character), ritual casting, and 3 cantrips. It added a lot of flavor and utility to my repertoire - Longstrider, Feather Fall, Snare, Alarm, Grease, and Shield - in addition to being able to add (ritual) spells to the book later. The one level delay in sneak attack damage is often mitigated by booming blade (which I added instead of taking initially). The one level delay in adding higher level spells hurts more, but your spell slot progression is actually helped a bit. It's a lot of fun and recommended for players who are willing to sacrifice some damage for flexibility. Also, Grease is by far the most hilarious spell to have and a DEX save or prone condition is a nice pairing with Tasha's Hideous Laughter.

[@TreantmonksTemple]

If you're going for some Wizard, it's also worth while to consider a 2nd level if Bladesinger is an option - it works well with rogue.

[@ianmccullough3846]

@@TreantmonksTemple Definitely considered it, but the character is a gnome. But more importantly, rogue seemed to offer something at every level and I didn't want to delay my ASIs too much.

[@VALUST17]

@@ianmccullough3846 I play Bladesingers most of the time but also just started a game with a gnome arcane trickster and so am not wanting to do another character who blade sings. I’m planning on at least taking 2 levels of wizard pretty early and taking the war wizard for the boost to initiative and reaction for +4 to a saving throw.

[@Kbaker0407]

Would love to see full builds or majority of arcane trickster and eldritch knight builds. Just to see how treantmonk would build the two classes with these archetypes, while also keeping with the baseline damage etc. Easy enough to achieve I figure, but I'd like to see his choice of feats and likewise at the levels.

[@dakotamcintire7419]

Mixed this with about 7 levels Arcane Archer Fighter and 2 levels in war domain cleric on a build that focused on intelligence, Dexterity, and Wisdom. The end results a great control Archer, with a tool box of available spells and options for spreading damage and disabling enemies. Only down side is the builds pretty squishy.

[@maltheopia]

The Haste (mentioned in the comments but not video) tactic of getting in two sneak attacks definitely has its downsides -- it eats up your reaction, leaving you no room for Uncanny Dodge/Shield, and if you lose Concentration you're boned. I don't think it's an auto-pick option like Shadow Blade and Find Familiar are, but if you can swing the huge increase in offense at the cost of creating gaping holes in your defense, it's a top-tier pick.

[@TheRobversion1]

I think for a ranged build and with multiclassing it works well.

[@maltheopia]

@@TheRobversion1 If you're a ranged build that has reliable access to hiding opportunities, definitely. I'd think twice about using double-sneak-attack Haste for a melee or close-quarters ranged build though.

[@jaysonburke6839]

Level 2 Debuff spells are one of the hardest choices to make: - Non-concentration spells (Mind Whip / Blindness) that disable enemies for 1-2 turns but can be used while Concentrating on Hypnotic Pattern / Haste etc. Only useful in-battle. Mind Whip to cripple high-threat Melee and Blindness to cripple high-threat Ranged. OR - Concentration spells (Suggestion / Levitate) that disable enemies for the entire fight (single saving throw) and pairs well with Magical Ambush. Which are also useful even outside of battle. OR - Concentration spells (Phantasmal Force / Hold Person) that don't last the entire fight. Magical Ambush only works on the first Saving Throw. And only slightly useful outside of battle. [Not recommended with so few spell slots and other things to Concentrate on.] In a Campaign that has many fights a day, lot's of puzzle challenges, and Social situations I think having Suggestion and/or Levitate is better. Slowly spreading out your Concentration spells over many trials and tribulations. In Campaigns where you only do 1-2 fights a day I think using your Concentration on a big spell (Hypnotic Pattern / Fear) and then stacking even more debuffs (Mindwhip + Blindness) is the better choice.

[@wannabeslav]

I feel like a lot of people undervalue Disguise Self. DM discretion of course, but let's say you are hidden from enemies in combat. You can use Disguise Self to look like an Enemy and most likely attack with Surprise. Essentially in combat you can use it like a Invisibility potion but it lasts after your attack and doesn't require concentration

[@lyracian]

Thank you I enjoyed that. Personally I do like Invisibility on an Arcane Trickster but most of your others match with what I take. I like having a save cantrip so that if you cannot sneak attack or there AC/resistance makes weapon attacks weak you can try and utilise Magical Ambush to get some damage to stick. The other spell I am planing to take when my Trickster gets to 20th Level is Counterspell; since Stroke of Luck is also an ability check I can guarantee counting even a 9th level spell.

[@victorbarrosdeoliveira8496]

Awsome video as always! Is funny how the spell selection of the arcane trickster is more easy and simple than the eldritch knight

[@acm4bass]

With regards to cantrips, minor illusion is an obvious choice but i choose message for clandestine communtion with party members or other allies. The booming blade choice is great but i find that choices that only increase damage just makes the dm compensate and add enemies or hp to encounters and isn't tactically significant.

[@M0ebius]

Alexander Maxwell Booming Blade doesnt just increase damage, it’s a valid singe-target control option. I prefer increased strategic depth over just easier encounters.

[@clarkside4493]

I want to play a kobold arcane trickster who is on the run from a hag because he ate a rare mushroom from her garden. I am, however, at least waiting for Tasha's Cauldron of Everything for new enchantment and illusion spells.

[@terak4786]

So, I had a bit of a thought, and wanted to pass it along to see what others thought. Hunter Ranger, for the Horde Breaker feature, with Green Flame Blade acquired through some method or another. The HB-granted attack doesn't use an action to be made and requires a weapon attack, which GFB makes as part of casting the spell.

[@seanjardine3128]

Not mentioning suggestion, invisibility or misty step. Surprising.

[@M0ebius]

I keep seeing people suggest Invisibility. In 5E Hiding is just so much better than Invisibility, and Rogues can Expertise Stealth. So unless you’re constantly in situations where everything is just a big flat surface, you’re better off just hiding. ps - Invisibility = unseen. Hidden = unseen + heard. It’s strictly superior and doesn’t cost a precious 1/3 caster spell slot.

[@seanjardine3128]

M0ebius interesting. I’m in my first campaign ever as a level 6 arcane Trickster so I’m trying to figure my life out. It’s very interesting because the Dungeon Dudes AT video said invisibility is a must have/ game changing spell.

[@lyracian]

I think this comes down to how Hiding it used in games. Invisible rogues can walk right through the kings throne room and steal incriminating evidence from the Vizier whereas a hidden character may not. It is a spell I always take.

[@M0ebius]

Lyracian Xi If you are invisible you still have to take the Hide action to be undetected, because otherwise your position is known through using other senses (such as hearing) RAW. But overall I just feel like it’s pretty niche and doesnt give enough value on the AT, who has very few spells/slots. If your party have any other caster, have them cast it on you instead.

[@thomaspeters8023]

Of all your 2nd level spells Invisibility should probably be one of them. But it isn't a priority selection and you may not use it very often. It can be really good for scouting, occasionally useful for another party member, and rarely relevant in combat. Suggestion is excellent and you should have it by level 9 for use with Magical Ambush.

[@johneubank8543]

I agree about Find Familiar - I'd only pick Shield if the DM hates familiars and always just kills them or homebrews rules to make it so that Familiars can't help you much or at all. Having one advantaged attack a round almost guaranteed is wonderful, of course, for a rogue. Shield is much less useful, if Familiars are allowed to help.

[@GoodOldGamer]

If you play as that gnome that gets Minor Illusion, you effectively get another cantrip for free. 👍

[@SaraphDarklaw]

Wouldn’t elves be better anyway since they get to pick the cantrip?

[@GoodOldGamer]

@@SaraphDarklaw Depends on what you wanna go with, I suppose. Gnomes are thematically built around being illusionists, so I think of them first. I also like the idea of those little guys being underestimated.

[@beastwarsFTW]

I think deep gnomes are better at stealth. They have the best eyesight (120ft darkvision without sunlight sensitivity) and can learn nondetection with unlimited free uses and can campaign as a rock, basically they're darn near impossible to find when they hide.

[@chy03001]

How good would color spray be? It's less powerful than sleep but has a higher average hp score than sleep.

[@lyracian]

Also you listed Fear as a 2nd Level spell! 23:53 2nd level selections (Enchantment/Illusion): Fear

[@TreantmonksTemple]

Thanks, fixed

[@jah2004]

When you cast slow on an enemy they can't use reactions, that means no opportunity attacks. Very nice on a rogue!

[@PlanetOfTheApes999]

Hypnotic Pattern is the best option Arcane Tricksters could ever hope to have. Also, Battlesmith 3/Arcane Trickster X is a great build.

[@LightningBoltSpark]

"You can retrieve an object in a container worn or carried by another creature" means you can retrive it from a container THAT IS worn or carried. So RAW, you can't retrieve an object that it's NOT inside a container, like the quiver (you CAN retrieve an arrow) or the component pouch (you CAN retrieve a component). If the sentence had a comma, like "an object in a container, worn or carried by another creature" I think you could retrieve "non contained" objects. EDIT: Great guide, BTW!!! (My internal Rules Lawyer made me forgot about saying that...)

[@jameswagstaff984]

Any thoughts on a illusion wizard/arcane trickster rouge drow

[@Brettah31]

I am planning to play an armourer artificer with the infiltrator armour as a multiclass with arcane trickster. I will be leaning very heavily on mirror image. But even I think arguing that mirror image can trigger a sentinel reaction is taking the piss. If I put my DM hat on for the moment, that is clearly not in the spirit of either mirror image or sentinel. They are both very powerful options already, and if you add war caster to the mix, you now get booming/green flame blade as a reaction just for being attacked.

[@thedude0000]

Except Jeremy Crawford (on Sage Advice) said Sentinel & Mirror Image work that way. _When using mirror image. Does an attacker who targets a mirror image instead of you provoke an attack from the Sentinel feat? Yes_ - Jeremy Crawford (@JeremyECrawford) October 3, 2018

[@VICHEL1]

One of the best things you can steal with spell thief is actually counterpell. Opponent mages might be particularly fond of trying gto counterspell a magical ambush control spell. Wouldn't it be a shame if you not only negated their counterspell but also gained it to counter their spells?

[@VICHEL1]

@@sharkforce8147 They might see it, the target might not. At least my DM ruled it llike that

[@thomaspeters8023]

@@VICHEL1 That's a correct ruling. Hiding is relative to a particular creature. You might be hiding behind a tree. That's great but you won't be hidden from the monster standing behind you.

[@HereticalKitsune]

With Mage Hand Legeredemain you could also trigger traps if enemies are near them, right? Just suddenly something going off during their patrol, they know of the trap, avoid it, and it still goes off. Do it all invisible or stealthed and the others might chalk it up to a mistake by the guards.

[@thomaspeters8023]

There is no rule that your 8th level unlimited pick must be a second-level spell. Your best free choices are probably Find Familiar and Shield. Whichever you did not take at 3rd level you should seriously consider taking at 8th level. Consider that you now have four 1st level slots. As an 8th level AT who took Find Familiar what are you even going to do with them without Shield? Tasha's Hideous Laughter and Sleep aren't what they used to be. Meanwhile lots of interesting enchantment and illusion spells are competing for your two 2nd level slots. By using your level-up changes you can already learn three of them.

[@seanjardine3128]

Thomas Peters I’m currently playing a level 6 AT and this is exactly what I was planning on doing. Find familiar, disguise self, shield, shadow blade, phantasmal force and invisibility. Boom.

[@jesterjames5057]

- spell thief is not limited to attack spells. Any spell that targets you or includes you. Includes scry for instance.

[@necrox7gaming186]

how do i get booming blade? i cant see it in the list..

[@johneubank8543]

An Adventurer's League optimizer told me for AL to strongly consider Haste for a third level spell, because you can get a second sneak attack in a round with Haste. It's a problem that it eats a round to cast it, so if you can't pre-cast it before the fight, it's a little less useful given the action economy of 5e. But in a long fight (and in AL the last fight of a module is often a longer, "boss" fight), being able to sneak attack twice a round is quite nice. If you want to hit hard, it's hard to beat two sneak attacks a round (consider resil con or warcaster as a feat, as losing concentration on Haste has a nasty consequence). (for those who don't know how it works, if hasted (and some other ally can haste you, too) you ready your main attack to go off the moment your turn ends. Then you use your hasted attack to get the first sneak attack in on your turn. You can only s.a. once a turn, but you can s.a. (if you qualify for one - say an ally is close enough) on your reaction. And your readied action is now a reaction attack. So your second sneak attack goes off the moment your turn ends.)

[@Karsticles]

How exactly are you getting another sneak attack?

[@johneubank8543]

@@Karsticles you must as a reaction - if you ready your main attack to happen when your turn ends, and if you still qualify for a s.a., you can have a second one as that attack.

[@johneubank8543]

@@Karsticles you can't have another "on your turn" - must be a reaction. Read my top post - it explains doing it via haste fully. Another - take 3 lvls mc of BM fighter, take Riposte - use that. Or someone in party is a BM and uses Commander on you. Or s.a. as an opp attack (dissonant whisper).

[@johneubank8543]

@@jaysonburke6839 yeah, that's largely what I said. You're using different words - maybe you don't understand the process the way I said it. If someone needs to read this twice, /shrug - hey, whatever. Most players who run rogues (that I know) are happy w/ one sneak attack per turn/round.

[@xunderxdosedx]

I was thinking about using Id Insinuation in place of Tasha's Hideous Laughter on mine

[@TheRobversion1]

Nice vid. I'd still say for a multiclass rogue, the asssassin is the best subclass. Personally, i never play a rogue to only have 1 attack. Usually i multiclass to gloomstalker for the easy advantage and extra attack. love the sentinel and mirror image combo! something new to try out. No haste? why does this rogue feel like another controller? Would be nice to see a "striker/skirmisher/gish" type of arcane trickster. Feels like a baby god wizard based on most of the selections.

[@dustinsmith2021]

The problem with that is you don’t come online until level 6 most games don’t make it much beyond that if they make it there at all.

[@TheRobversion1]

@@dustinsmith2021 i guess. Most of the time my play group rarely starts at level 1. Usually level 3-4. Then we usually end at around 12-13 (our gm hates simulacrum exploits). so yeah its not long before the build comes online.

[@M0ebius]

TBH I think Assassin is probably among the worst Rogue subclasses, MC or no.

[@TheRobversion1]

@@M0ebius well if you think so. For me, i find the 3 level dip very useful. Especially with how a gloomstalker or a ranged playstyle makes surprising easy. Just to elaborate, if you have a DM that doesnt like granting you surprise (when it makes sense he should) or playing in darkness, then yes this is one of the worst rogue subclasses (still not the worst imo). but generally i do get surprise on most of our random encounters and any planned combats. The only times i dont get surprise is if i'm in combat coming out of a social situation. So i get those advantage and auto crits on multiple attacks 90+% of the time. For a 3 level dip, that's great value imo.

[@Quintal100kg]

Assassin is pretty lame then you realize how many things must come together to use your ability: 1) Either you are alone or all of your party members are at least competent at stealth (because if creature notice at least one of you it won't be surprised) 2) You are manage to surprise an enemy (which gets progressively harder the more people are trying to do it (more rolls - more chances for poor rolls) 3) You win the initiative as if enemy turn comes before yours it won't be surprised (Gloomstalker helps a bit with that of course) 4) You manage to hit (you have an advantage of course but it is still only one attack. Shit happens. Of course Gloom stalker could also help with that) Just to many opportunities to fail. Of course with Gloom Stalker it is much better due to extra attacks and initiative bonus, but it is one of the best subclasses in the game overall and probably the only one which is pair with assassin well. And assassin even not the best match for gloom stalker. I would say that samurai fighter is actually better (actuon surge + fighting spirit on a first turn, combined with sharpshooter and Elven accuracy is pretty ridiculous)

[@Wdragon71]

Wouldn't prestidigitation work like minor illusion or disguise self?

[@beef9]

im trying to make an arcane trickster build but im still wondering which feats are good. Right now I think actor might be good but does anyone know any other good picks?

[@timuking5762]

Hey Chris, Optimancers here.

[@aldoushuxley5953]

can you do a bladesinger arcane trickster multiclass? (In particular arcane trickster x / bladesinger 2)

[@shanekayat3217]

I'm playing an AT and heavily considering dipping BS. The main problem I'm facing is when to do it. You sacrifice ASIs and sneak attack as a rogue, so if you're happy with your ASI then it seems best to dip BS earlier, so you gain access to more spells and slots. I chose a feat for flavour at level 4 (Arcanist) instead of maxing DEX, so I desperately need my level 8 ASI before I can dip wizard.

[@knightghaleon]

@@shanekayat3217 If you take shadowblade, this build can be pretty good. Bladesinging with a high int and dex modifier certainly reduces the chances of being hit and being able to use blur/shield etc defenses certainly helps you stay in the fight longer. You are sacrificing sneak attack dice for more spell slot dice. But you're also getting more options to handle enemies from far away if needed.

[@sohkaswifteagle2604]

With Tasha errata, which one is better? Shadow blade or Booming blade, since now with Tasha, the weapon attack made with Booming blade need to be made using the 1sp weapon used as a component (so no shadow blade which value is technically 0coins)

[@Herbalizer28]

Invisibility is a must, especially for a rogue.

[@TreantmonksTemple]

Why? Don't most rogues not even have access to 2nd level spells? Are they not rogues?

[@maltheopia]

@@TreantmonksTemple I'd say rogues need invisibility much less than other builds. A 20 DEX rogue with Expertise in Stealth and Reliable Talent will be able to beat the passive perception of CR Ancient Brass Dragons, and most PPs are much lower than that. It'd be a nice-to-have for rogues in the level 3 to 7 range, but Arcane Tricksters don't get Invisibility until level 9 anyway.

[@Herbalizer28]

@@TreantmonksTemple I meant the invisibility spell, whether it is cast by the trickster or any other character, works well with a rogue, a character that scouts, infiltrate and don't want to be seen altogether. So since the trickster does have access to it, I would think that it would be a must. That being said, maltheopia might have a point, a rogue can stay out of sight without the need to be invisible. I still think that an invisible rogue is stealthier than a visible one ! 😊

[@Jerzzylo]

@@maltheopia This depends on how the DM interprets stealth. RAW you can't stealth within line of sight of a creature. Invisibility allows for a lot more stealth.

[@maltheopia]

@@Jerzzylo A DM can certainly rule that as soon as you ever lose concealment you auto-lose stealth, no matter what you roll or for how brief the loss is. It's technically RAW. Even though literally no other major tabletop game is that restriction, including D&D 3.5E, Pathfinder, and 4E. But if you're playing with that kind of Gygaxian DM, you're not going to get much done with stealth anyway, invisibility or no. You may as well just play a full-caster.

[@Musicpuzzle]

Hi Treantment Monk's Temple. Could I use a gnome arcane trickster to dress up my unseen servant in light clothes (wizard outfit) and wear the same outfit to have a modified silent image/clone spell since both my small character and spell cast are roughly the same size?

[@KageRyuu6]

Of your given examples I don't think you can actually prevent someone from drinking a potion with Legerdemain, first of all there's no mention of a Reaction with Mage Hand or Legerdemain, while a Disarm action would require an Attack roll (ie taking something out of someone's hand), which the Mage Hand can't perform. Now you can Steal it if it's on their person, but not held, but you'd probably have Disadvantage without actually knowing where it is, assuming they even have one in the first place. Regarding Sentinel and Mirror Image, MI indicates the attack is directed at YOU, then through your machinations you direct it elsewhere. In that way I'd say it's akin to Forced Movement not initiating Reactions.

[@M0ebius]

KageRyuuUji Mirror Image + Sentinel is both RAW and confirmed by Sage Advice. The fluff is you’re not forcing the enemy to do anything, they just target an image instead.

[@Jerzzylo]

The way mirror image works flavourwise is that you have duplicates of yourself around you and your enemy strikes at one of them thinking it's you. then you roll to see whether the one they targeted was your mirror image or you.

[@shadow8450]

How do you get all of that stuff on DnD Beyond?

[@jeffdietz630]

1 lvl dip in fighter for blindfight. 2nd level pyrotechnics for concentration free full obscurement.

[@bishopofeternity48]

You can use mage hand to pull down a combatants pant, cover his head with his helmet, throw sand in his eyes, etc. Probably the most useful cantrip. Kind of becomes mandatory for any castor class.

[@Jerzzylo]

The problem with mage hand is that it can't attack. My DM rules that those actions would need an attack roll and therefore count as attacks.

[@bishopofeternity48]

@@Jerzzylo Those count as attacks? I mean I get the sand(maybe), but shifting clothing? Why is that different from something like removing potions or a quiver?

[@Jerzzylo]

@@bishopofeternity48 Well RAW mage hand legerdemain allows you to remove an object from a container. for example an arrow from a quiver or potion from belt loop. Removing an item directly counts as disarming at least that is my DM's ruling. Honestly mage hand would be kind of op if it allowed disarming.

[@bishopofeternity48]

@@Jerzzylo Removing arrows from a quiver doesn't count as disarming? That's almost the definition of disarming.

[@Jerzzylo]

@@bishopofeternity48 It might be but the rules do not always focus on reality but instead focus on balancing the game. Legerdemain states that you can take an item from a container that is worn by another creature. A quiver is a container and a arrow is an item.

[@aces_are_wild-_-65]

Wall of fire could be a great control spell and could be used with web to do extra damage

[@gray007nl]

It would destroy the web though

[@aces_are_wild-_-65]

@@gray007nl yes but their be extra damage when it lights up

[@GramGramAnimations]

I’m watching this video and already know Find Familiar is going to pop up. We have a druid and a ranger in our party, so to not completely overtake their scouting abilities I decided to pass on it. Especially considering the AT and rogues can fill so many other roles already

[@shanekayat3217]

Did you take Shield instead? I took FF and find myself wanting to gain Shield through other means, because I want that survivability but I just can't do away with my Familiar now 😭

[@GramGramAnimations]

@@shanekayat3217 I took fog cloud! Its actually become a common go to spell for my rogue to use in combat. A classic move is to drop a fog cloud during a fight to hide in and block line of sight, then cast disguise self within it as one of the enemies. When I watched this, I had just hit level 3. My character is now level 6, with a multiclass in both wizard (mostly for ritual spells, and a few more utility spells like absorb elements, shield, and feather fall), and a multiclass into hexblade warlock. I’m playing a half-drow, so I’m expecting some devils sight tricks to be used as an evolution of the fog cloud maneuver, and repelling blast to help add some battlefield positioning utility.

[@wassentme1891]

​@@GramGramAnimationsThis is so clever!

[@GramGramAnimations]

@@wassentme1891 hahaha, I appreciate the praise to my 2 year old comment under my other comment with no upvotes :) my character eventually was 3 levels of AT, 2 in War Wizard, and 3 in Hexblade. Casting Booming Blade with a whip for sneak attack with a special magic whip that gave extra range to attack cantrips. I had so many uses for my reaction, and tons of low level spells, and SO many cantrips, it was a very fun and unique character and all the mechanics worked incredibly well thematically. Rogue drow spelunker who found an ancient construct arm she eventually attached to herself that gave her access to old magic from a time before the weave was unraveled and remade during a war between gods.

[@herrkrabbe148]

8:34 I am imagining snake as a dnd arcane tricster. minor illusions his cardbox to selath inside of and then shoots an arrow out of the box

[@Jarikraider]

Phantasmal Force as a bucket for blindness? That's pretty smart, but how about a cube perfectly shaped around their head so as not to be removable AND -made of lava- a mimic screeching and biting them causing damage, blindness, deafness, and possibly making them stab themselves.

[@solarupdraft]

I've been listening to your build videos on my commute, it makes the trip much faster. Would you consider putting together a primarily-cleric build that aims to have counterspell as early as is feasible? [Edit] I went and looked around some, and I don't think this has any great answers unless Eberron's Mark of Sentinel is available. Maybe Tasha's new book will open up some new options.

[@powerhouseofthecell9758]

Why no mention of True Strike. It's useless when you're fully in combat or outside it, but you can get free Advantage, and therefore likely Sneak Attack, on your first attack. Somatic Components only means you won't give away your position. This is how you snipe in Dungeons & Dragons.

[@TreantmonksTemple]

Or hide?

[@Jerzzylo]

Why would you need to cast a spell from hiding to get advantage? You already have advantage from being hidden.

[@mattmags17]

Always appreciate your guides. Not sure if this was brought up, but for Spell Thief; I don't think they can add their proficiency bonus to the save can they? It just spell casting ability modifier.

[@The_Other_Dan]

I reckon Green Flame Blade is better than Booming Blade for AT. You need the enemy to move in order to make BB trigger the additional damage, where as GFB you just need a couple of enemies in proximity to each other. The movement requirement to trigger BB extra damage which makes it a devastating choice for a DW/2WF Rogue Swashbuckler. Step in, Booming Blade, Off Hand stab, fancy footwork away. Then the enemy has to pay the BB damage toll if he wants to pursue you.

[@Jerzzylo]

I agree that booming blade works better with the mobile feat or swashbuckler, However RAW you can't make offhand attack after booming blade since booming blade does not use the attack action.

[@The_Other_Dan]

@@Jerzzylo Really? But it says it right there in the description '... you must make a melee attack with a weapon... ' so you're meeting the very definition described under Attack 'With this action, you make one melee (or ranged) attack' Also, you're swinging your weapon, you're using your weapon proficiency/modifiers from your weapon attack rather than you spell attack modifier. At least that how we've always interpreted it. The cantrip is cast by making an attack. Interesting

[@Jerzzylo]

@@The_Other_Dan The offhand attack rule states that when you take the attack action using a light melee weapon in our main hand you can use the bonus action to make an attack using a light melee weapon in your off hand. Casting booming blade involves making a melee attack, but it is still not the melee action. The melee attack is part of the cantrip not the other way around. My rogue would welcome being able to attack after booming blade though :D

[@tiagomachadodacosta3027]

There 's a mistake about using sneak atack a second time on the same turn because it's a reaction. It's not possible because it says that you can apply sneak attack only per turn. It means doesn't matter if the attack happens on the action, bonus action or reaction, so no matter what it's impossible to use it twice.

[@mikeclementecard]

Turn not round

[@thomaspeters8023]

Sneak Attack is not a reaction. You cannot use it twice in one turn. You can use it on your turn and again on someone else's turn.

[@flimpeenflarmpoon1353]

Best Bard Subclass for Hexblade dip? I was thinking of swords cause for the whole Blaenau thing but others look fun

[@MaxBrooksZSG]

I'd like to hear thoughts on Blink as a 3rd level AT other spell.

[@thomaspeters8023]

If you take a level of wizard then you have 1st level spells like Find Familiar, Shield, and Absorb Elements covered. Now as you level up you can afford to change out your "other" spells for 3rd-level picks. Blink is a strong choice for a second or third pick. Even as a first choice it isn't bad, especially if your party has enough Counterspell resources to deal with whatever the campaign is throwing at them.

[@katherineminor3402]

As my free spell I always take magic missile just because it's so good. Find familiar is nice but the spell component part is sometimes a pain.

[@shanekayat3217]

I've honestly been enjoying the challenge of trying to keep my Familiar alive, knowing I can really only cast it again in town. Our sorcerer nuked my owl in a very necessary fireball (he also nuked like 4 ghouls) and I haven't had it available for the remainder of the trip. Makes you really appreciate the scarcity of some things, I often felt bad for spamming the same tactics in combat. But yeah, the brazier requirement is annoying, much worse than the 10gp.

[@Hyde_Hill]

Wonder what your opinion is on Tasha's Mind Whip? Now that Tasha is out. It is enchantment and offers a good ranged/debuff spell.

[@jaysonburke6839]

I absolutely LOVE having both Mindwhip and Blindness/Deafness. You can maintain your control on Concentration spells like Hypnotic Pattern, Fear, or Haste. While at the same time you can stack on the debuffs by hitting high-threat melee with (INT Save) Mind Whip and high-threat ranged/casters with (CON Save) Blindness. All bases are covered and your Concentration remains intact. The ONLY downside is that these spells are not that useful outside of battle. If your Campaign tends to have a lot of Social encounters and dangerous non-combat trials then Concentration spells like Suggestion and Levitate will provide more fun during those challenges. 1st Turn: Haste, Sneak Attack, Hide 2nd Turn: Blindness (Enemy Mage), Sneak Attack, Hide 3rd Turn: Mind Whip (Enemy Fighter), Sneak Attack, Hide 4th Turn: Sneak Attack, Hide, Ready (Sneak Attack on enemies turn) etc etc. Hiding so Magical Ambush keeps applying and so Haste isn't easily broken. Works best with Mobile feat (so you don't need to Disengage) or a Ranged weapon.

[@Platypusb1ll]

Personally, I find the notion that a character is keeping Mage Hand up all the time a pretty hard pill to swallow. Casting a spell takes effort. The rules say you can use cantrips an unlimited number of times, but you can technically also swing a hammer as much as you like, even though it should clearly tire you out *eventually*. And even then, doing a repetitive task every minute "just in case" would bore most people to death. It's just not a reasonable precaution.

[@rickslechter7385]

What about Mind Sliver and ID Insinuation?

[@Graxil]

Hey Chris, where would be a good place to ask you dnd related questions? If YT comments would work, do you usually name your dnd parties? If so, can you give some examples?

[@TreantmonksTemple]

Maybe 50% of the time. I'm not great at coming up with names, but groups I've been in have been called (what I can remember anyway) The Gauntlet of Anise (Anise was an NPC patron), The Second Breakfast Club, The Silver Harp, The Longstriders....that's all I can remember right now.

[@jknixter]

I was wondering about the spell Enemies Abound from XGE? It is enchantment and with magical ambush, do you think this is a viable spell to pick?

[@TreantmonksTemple]

It's OK. It will certainly combine nicely with Magical Ambush - there are some other issues with the spell (really depends on situation - needs enemies in range to attack, saving throw every time it takes damage)

[@jknixter]

@@TreantmonksTemple i guess it could work as a tandem confusion/opening tactic. One enemy attacks the others to cause a distraction and attack a few other enemies. When they come to their senses you can alert the other members of your party to attack or send an AOE like fireball or vitriolic sphere. Honestly is you multiclass in sorcerer and get twin spell, that opens up a few more options for spells since you now have two targets instead of one, its small but can help.

[@maltheopia]

@@jknixter Enemies Abound isn't really a good spell for the Arcane Trickster. It's a great spell for T3/T4 wizards fighting low-INT bruiser monsters with ranged attacks (which is a lot more than you'd think), because even with multiple INT saving throws they'll almost never break out of it and depending how much chaff is on the battlefield it'll disable them the whole fight. But for Arcane Tricksters with limited spell slots and questionable DCs? Nah?

[@thomaspeters8023]

It may be good for a high-level AT who is de facto impossible to see and is working alone or scouting ahead of his party. He can potentially cause some serious trouble by casting it at a group and then sneaking away. Pick a target who can do a lot of damage but can't make Int saves. Should be fun at the very least. Probably not a good choice at 13th level, but the pool of choices is very limited and the picks keep coming. By the time you reach 16th or so you will probably have several other 3rd-level spells and this will seem like a good pick.

[@acm4bass]

I've played an arcane trickster to 15th level, and found the first problem is stats. If Dex is your primary stat and you do Intelligence high up on your priority you still need constitution for health, wisdom for perception and Charisma for deception..... Now obviously you can't it all but you can't diffuse a trap unless you see it. You cant commit crimes unless you can lie about it....well maybe you can but really.. I ended up needing a seeing eye player, a cleric to notice anything.

[@robinthrush9672]

"I'm investigating the floor and walls to check for traps." Could you get that to work?

[@M0ebius]

Thats what Expertise is for.

[@Jerzzylo]

WIS on my AT is 10 but since I took expertise on perception I have same Passive perception as our Ranger with 18 WIS at level 9

[@thomaspeters8023]

It is really not a MAD class. Dexterity is critical and everyone needs as much constitution as they can afford. An intelligence of 13 will allow you to multiclass into wizard if you choose and 14 is really nice to have. But dumping intelligence is completely viable: Mage Hand, Booming Blade, Green Flame Blade, Minor Illusion, Message, Find Familiar, Shield, Sleep, Misty Step, Shadow Blade, Mirror Image, Invisibility, Blur, Counterspell, Dimension Door, and Greater Invisibility make a fine basis for an AT with an intelligence of 8. You don't need wisdom you just want it. With Expertise your perception will be very good even with a low wisdom. You don't need charisma at all. Lots of classes are standing in line waiting to be the party face. Put your point buys and skill proficiencies elsewhere. You stayed at home studying and now you are an AT. Your charismatic friend went out partying every night and now he is a swashbuckler. Not that I'm saying you can't build an effective charisma AT, because you can.

[@M0ebius]

Thomas Peters Greenflame Blade isnt great with 8 INT. Minor Illusion might need INT, although depending on how you use it that can be mitigated. Counterspell kind of depends on how your table run whether you know what spell the other guy is casting, but I guess it never hurts having another counterspeller in a counter war.

[@thruthewormhole]

Hey Treantmonk, I'm the only spellcaster (Chronurgis wizard lvl 5) in an upcoming campaign. Wtf do I do and which spells do I go with?

[@thruthewormhole]

Party of 6/7 btw

[@wyattweber9983]

@@thruthewormhole This channel already has many many videos on wizard tactics and spell selection, maybe check them out first

[@TreantmonksTemple]

I suggest checking out my wizard spell guides - I have one for every level of wizard spells

[@icebarrierangel6610]

I want a combination betwen a samurai and an arcane trickster

[@KrakenSlayer47]

Do you think it is worth multicasting with wizard?

[@TreantmonksTemple]

Yes - particularly Bladesinger

[@MarcosSerrano-oe1lf]

Congratulations! I LOVE this subclass... thanks. When do you gonna do lvl 20 arkane trickster build??? I´m playing with one, Variant human level 8, and I´m gonna multiclass with wizard.

[@zomarleyonwriting8322]

I did 6 bladesinger, the rest arcane trickster and am having the time of my life. Legit 22 AC without shield. Not “optimal” compare to full bladesinger, but I absolutely love it. DM is also allowing me to use mage hand as a permanent replacement to my arm being cut off (strangely by one of the fellow party members long ago). Just fun. Think there are quite a few good wizard options though.

[@maltheopia]

I used to be a huge fan of Hypnotic Pattern, but as the metagame progresses it keeps getting worse. It seems DMs are much more likely to break it with nuisance damage (even two-weapon fighting, despite the fact that RAW you can't use unarmed strikes with TWFing by default) or setting up a 'shake them awake' conga line with monsters that act on the same turn.

[@M0ebius]

That seems more like a DM problem than a Hypnotic Pattern problem. Literally any spell can be bad when the DM openly metagames against it.

[@maltheopia]

​@@M0ebius "Literally any spell can be bad when the DM openly metagames against it." This response is too glib. It's a reality you have to deal with when the game's ethos is 'rulings, not rules'. And to that end there are spells that are more vulnerable to 'rulings, not rules' than others. Phantasmal Force and illusions in general are always going to be subject to more hazy on-the-spot in-game nerfs than, say, Fireball and Blindness/Deafness. And increasingly it looks like Hypnotic Pattern is one of those spells.

[@M0ebius]

maltheopia “I used to be a fan of Fireball, but it increasing seems like every enemy I fight have fire resistance and have half and three-quarters cover”. “I used to be a fan of Blindness/Deafness, except increasing all the monsters have CONsave proficiency and blindsense.” You see how that works? The best way to play against an antagonistic DM is to find a new table. The second best way is to have multiple strategies so that he cant play around all of them.

[@maltheopia]

@@M0ebius "You see how that works?" No, I don't see how that works. The problem with your analogy is that your examples (fire resistance, cover, increasing CON saves, extra senses) are predictable and can be accounted for to some extent. Those effects stem from rules, not rulings. So the DM still has the final say, but they're reasonably predictable in such a way that a DM has to go out of their way to alter how it works in the metagame. To the point where you can call hax if you keep having to fight fire-immune monsters or monsters with special senses in T2. Not so with Illusions. There's no statistical analysis or Sage Advice or FAQ rulings you can point to when you suspect a DM is fudging the rules to screw you. With illusions and Hypnotic Pattern, there's not really any difference between how a RAW by-the-book number cruncher DM, an experienced DM new to 5E D&D, and a Gygaxian DM would run those effects. I've gotten illusions nerfed all of the time by even otherwise permissive DMs.

[@M0ebius]

maltheopia Uh... shaking allies awake is also rules not ruling for Hypnotic Pattern.

[@S4PIENT]

What artwork is that? It's awesome.

[@TenebrousFilms]

This is what I've been wating for! From a narrative perspective, if you used sentinel with mirror image, the enemy would focus on the one that counterattacked, at least partially nullifying the advantage of the spell. Curious how you feel about Arcane Trickster/Bladesinger multiclassing.

[@TreantmonksTemple]

2 BS on an arcane trickster is fantastic IMO

[@aldoushuxley5953]

Also AL legal, because both booming blade and bladesinger are grom the sword coast adventure guide :)

[@thomaspeters8023]

@@aldoushuxley5953 But you will miss Shadow Blade from XGtE :-(

[@aldoushuxley5953]

@@thomaspeters8023 True, I forgot about that. But remember, that you only have one attack (and the duration is also very short). So it is much better for eldritch knights etc than it is for you. for you, it is only 2d8/3d8, so 4-9 more damage than without it. It also uses concentration, so you can not use any other spell at the same time. The eldritch knight, because of the 4 attacks, gets 4x as much extra damage.

[@SpruceReduce8854]

I bet you could use disguise self to cover yourself with a camouflaging color to improve your stealth

[@techwizsmith7963]

I've always wondered if an Elven cloak counts as camo for a lvl 10 ranger

[@BLynn]

Treantmonk's Temple, wouldn't it be best for the Arcane Trickster to take Ritual Caster (Wizard) & save their spell knows for more active non-ritual spells?

[@BLynn]

Just realized I am only about 12 minutes into the video so you may talk about this later sorry if I jumped the gun.

[@TreantmonksTemple]

I think it's a decent feat selection.

[@shanekayat3217]

Considering Find Familiar is such an auto-select? Ritual Caster seems awesome. Also frees up your first any-school spell for Shield. I'm currently playing a level 5 AT and I'm heavily considering swapping out Find Familiar for Shield at level 6 (DM homebrewed that I'm allowed to swap out my level 3 any school spell, seems ridiculous that it isn't RAW) because I'm seriously concerned about just dropping dead randomly.

[@thomaspeters8023]

@@shanekayat3217 This is an acknowledged error in the rules in Sage Advice. You are allowed to swap it out.

[@shanekayat3217]

@@thomaspeters8023 ah I didn't know that, thanks! Seemed silly to not allow it

[@WexMajor82]

Why would you play an arcane trickster instead of a bard?

[@M0ebius]

Sneak attack and Magical Ambush I guess.

[@TreantmonksTemple]

An AT is better at dealing damage than a bard.

[@WexMajor82]

@@TreantmonksTemple Yeah, but isn't the whisper bard more or less the same class, but with full spellcasting?

[@TreantmonksTemple]

@@WexMajor82 No. The Rogue can sneak attack constantly, and has better defensive options as well. A high level whispers Bard could potentially match more closely with a 20 Cha and Font of Inspiration and some magical secrets for shield/absorb elements, but I don't think you would see that for the majority of gameplay.

[@maltheopia]

@@TreantmonksTemple Availability is everything. Bards are really questionable in T1, to the point where I think you could make reasonable a case that Bards are the worst T1 class next to monk. A Whispers Bard built that way is all-around superior to an Arcane Trickster, even in dealing weapon damage, by level 11 or so (and definitely by level 14) but 99% of games don't get that far.

[@theprinceofawesomeness]

Arcane Trickster would have been my favourit class if it was not for the Enchantment/Illusion schools. i find Divination and other spells to be far more beneficial and this just makes the class unplayable for me

[@matthewjayjack8143]

Hmm.... I know I'm not the target audience for these since I'm not much of an optimizer, but this feels much less like an Arcane Trickster and much more like an Eldritch Knight skirmisher. Pretty cool in that way, though. Probably just my own style with Rogues coloring my views.

[@TreantmonksTemple]

Both subclasses focus primarily on stabbing stuff.

[@matthewjayjack8143]

@@TreantmonksTemple I figured you would say that! It's just not how I like my Tricksters. I'm just not an optimizer. Shame, I know. Still learn a lot of ideas from your guides, so thanks for that. :)

[@timkramar9729]

Mold earth, shape water? Not in my wizard list.

[@bent404]

Don’t forget, a Wizard friend can make you a bunch of scrolls of find familiar so you can get shield.

[@ericpeterson8732]

But if you don't take find familiar, is it on your class spell list? Nm. Crawford ruled on it. Up to 5th level wizard spells. But at a cost of 35gp and a full day to inscribe, provided your wizard knows the spell, I don't think you're stocking up on them. Or the wizard will charge a fee to do it. But, yeah, it's possible, just not probable.

[@misterright4528]

Not sure why everyone suggests booming blade for AT. It does thunder damage which is not ideal for a stealthy situation. Its one of those things where the math works but the actual play can very.

[@shanekayat3217]

Seems DM dependent though, while it's described as "booming energy" it doesn't say anything about making a sound (which is a bit weird I guess). My DM has literally never brought up Booming Blade making a noise. Is that how others play it?

[@misterright4528]

@@shanekayat3217 read the description of the thunder damage type. It says it makes a 'concussive burst of sound'. That suggests that anything that does thunder damage makes some noise. I generally rule it can be heard a few rooms away. I've had players almost pull a whole dungeon using booming blade and shatter. Sure its a little DM dependant but of all the classes the rogue is far more likely to be scouting ahead and doing stealthy stuff.

[@shanekayat3217]

@@misterright4528 fair enough. I'm new to the game and we just haven't played the cantrip that way. I only recently learned about Sonic damage from previous editions and how it eventually became thunder damage. My main gripe is that booming blade doesn't say anything about how far the sound is heard, which is mostly where it becomes DM dependent.

[@maltheopia]

@@misterright4528 If a rogue is making an attack, even if they're an assassin, while scouting ahead they are doing it wrong. HP inflation is too high in 5E D&D, the rogue is just setting themselves up to get ganked. It doesn't matter if we're talking about Booming Blade or a silent dart, they're not going to take down the enemy either way by themselves and they should be scurrying back to the party.

[@misterright4528]

@@maltheopia you never know what a PC might do and a 5th level rogue could expect to deal around 21 damage on a sneak attack with Green Flame Blade. Enough to take out the majority of CR 1 or lower creatures. Reasonable for a chump guard. Obviously you should retreat if a Ogre is guarding something. But I am more concerned with drawing other rooms in a dungeon. If a DM is ignoring other parts of the dungeon then he or she is not doing their job and Booming Blade can cause problems in that regard. For these reasons I would not recommend Booming Blade Blade for a single classed AT. You simply have too few cantrip picks to have both. Now if a rogue is picking up a few levels of bard or wizard then that is a different story.

[@Iceblade423]

Yikes, Booming Blade appears to be only useful for Rogues. High synergy and actually difficult to use with any other class due to the target movement requirement and lack of extra attack.

[@CaitSith87]

Tabaxi arcane trickster? :)

[@johnkane8473]

Truestrike is another good cantrip to take, as it secures your ability to attack with advantage.

[@collegeoffoliage6776]

Tbh the mirror image+sentinel tech seems super cheesy to me. I don't think that's RAI, and I don't think I would enjoy it if one of my players built around that. Great video though!

[@M0ebius]

College of Foliage Sage Advice confirmed it as RAW, although it did not speak on RAI.

[@collegeoffoliage6776]

@@M0ebius fair enough. It's still basically in the same category as the polearm master+warcaster exploit, in my opinion. Not bad per se, but very "Gamey".

[@M0ebius]

College of Foliage PAM + Warcaster is specifically RAW but not RAI (unless you use Booming Blade, which involves an attack using the polearm per Mearl’s reasoning), so I would personally put it in a separate category. And honestly Mirror Image + Sentinel makes perfect sense in-fiction, since the character is implicitly adept at exploiting enemy openings when they target someone else, and the enemy is surrounded by a bunch of shadowy images. And it’s also a pretty cool imagery. Lastly, mechanically it is actually quite limited and not particularly broken. It takes an action to cast, and each time it triggers the chance of the enemy hitting you increases. In an average 3-5 round combat chances are you’re probably proccing it maybe 2.x times, and netting 1-2 extra Sneak Attacks because of the initial action cost. All for the cost of a limited resource (spell slots), which the Arcane Trickster have very few. It’s frankly not something you build around, especially on tables that run more encounters (maybe 4-6). Luckily both Sentinel and Mirror Image are separately good, and it’s really just incidental synergy. Overall it’s kind of feel bad to ban something like this, especially as Rogues in general are already lacking in the damage department.

[@nickbrown638]

15:12 Raw, no. Sentinel specifies a creature needs to be targeted for this to go off and since they aren’t one, it wouldn’t work. However, it would work if they attempted to attack your familiar if you happen to still have that up. If you decide to multiclass into echo knight later, than it could also go off that way since the echo is a creature.

[@fiatnix]

Hm...I was looking at the description for the Sentinel feat and I don't see where it says a *creature* needs to be targeted. It says only "When a creature within 5 feet of you makes an attack against a target other than you (and that target doesn't have this feat), you can use your reaction to make a melee weapon attack against the attacking creature." So the attacker needs to be a creature, but that attacker only needs to make an attack "against a target"; that part does not specify "creature", so this application would be legit (unless I missed something).