Are 2xko's combos too long? | A Deep Dive Into 2XKO's Combo System

[@djwithdk7084]

To me long combos are asking the question to the player "will the fun you have doing the combo out weigh the pain of being hit and watching yourself get hit by the combo" and for some people its no and you just gotta move on.

[@whiffleball3939]

Yeah. I was really excited for this game, but I don't like it when multiplayer games answer the question "Can I have fun and still lose" with "No. Stop losing."

[@FrizzlenillCAN]

The routing flexibility seems to take the same approach as MVCI, where the first ~40% of a combo's duration can be comprised of basically any arrangement of moves you want, often with different routes incorporating completely different special moves entirely and playing out very differently. The result is, the game is basically agnostic with respect to what moves you find cool and want to use, and moreover the fact that you can use whatever tools you want means that you can make specific choices to preserve/enable LATER parts of the combo to end in a particular outcome you want (side-switch, oki, meter dump, corner carry, reset, assist available or unavailable, left-right, safejump etc). These are all things you CAN do in other games, but 2xko lets you essentially access whichever of them you'd like, from any opening, as long as you plan your route accordingly, and that means every opening lets you advance the specific gameplan you want - i.e. the combo routing plays directly into strategic decision-making by allowing you to choose from among different tradeoff-riddled 'bonuses' on top of the baseline damage that comes from the opening. And because each of those choices have an opportunity cost of forgoing every other option that was presented to you (which is usually ALL of them!), it means that when it blows up in your face it's because of strategic error rather than input error.

[@matter3669]

Good video! I think my gripe with the combos are some characters have slow animations (ahri) or large amounts of hitstop that can make a 7 hit combo with super feel like a slog (braum). If I had to ask for anything it'd just go easy on the hitstop and give characters like ahri more sauce

[@kingsley_in4o124]

I feel so validated right now💀 this the main issue I have with the game is the slow animations and yeah Braum and Ahri are the main perpetrators but I'd add Darius in there aswell, to a lesser degree though. Lack of a visible counter hit state also is questionable but Braum and Illaoi run cycle is stiff as heck. overall the game is amazing though

[@matter3669]

@@kingsley_in4o124 I'd say the no CH state thing is okay as it reminds me of Xrd or Blazblue. Where normally it's not too noticeable but certain moves will give a unique slump or stun that lets you know you got a CH like illaoi's rekka. Maybe a better sound queue could be added?

[@kingsley_in4o124]

@@matter3669 Ahhh I see, I think yeah maybe certain moves having that unique slump or stun state would be pretty cool and YES a better sound queue would do wonders honestly but overall something with CH being tweaked would be awesome

[@2010AZ]

But what about the most common criticism : 2XKO is one of the worst names one can conjure for a game

[@eddventure6214]

🤯

[@happycamperds9917]

If you pronounce it "Double Knockout" it helps IMO.

[@TheCrewExpendable]

@@happycamperds9917Should just be 2KO then.

[@GarethXL]

i just call it Twoxko

[@TheAmberFang]

@@TheCrewExpendable The "X" would be more of a multiplication symbol, so 2x works as "double". It's even used in game for the 2x Assist Fuse, which I wouldn't be opposed to anyone calling "double assist".

[@HateSonneillon]

This is why I liked Xrd's air tech feature as it kept you invested even during long combos to watch for openings you can tech out of and you had to choose a safe direction based on the situation or else you might get scooped back up, so you had to learn the best times and direction to tech out of your opponents combos. Between that and burst it was rarely boring to get stuck in a long combo. It helps that air normals are fast and the combos are flashy too so its at least entertaining and doesn't take too long.

[@milesv5579]

I always go back to Smash even the longer combos you can either tech or airdodge instead of getting stuck and all you can just drop your controller.

[@TheAmberFang]

Burst only making sense with longer combos (and being more interesting with more combo freedom) is the most compelling argument to me. As pointed out, combo length and combo expression are things that people subjectively value differently, but you can't really argue against burst only making sense with long enough combos. Burst is even uniquely significant in this game, since in a team, the person in the back is in control of the burst: it gives the person that isn't on point something VERY important to manage. Not to mention how assists, also controlled by the player in the back, also contribute to longer combos. Basically, you can't have this be a team-centric game without having these mechanics that necessitate longer combos-unless you want the people on point to be the only ones doing anything.

[@odstsamwise6284]

Coming from gg where most combo's sit in the 8 hit range. I'm going to have to respectfully disagree. Just because a combo takes more or less hits or more or less time doesn't really mean it's going to do different damage. If the combo system was redone to cut length while still keeping that 2 to 3 touch style of a team game, then really all that would be missing is how consistent you have to be at the harder stuff since you don't have to get it right multiple times in one string. Another thing is how damage works in assist games, you likely aren't going to be taking little pokes too often, since people can use assist to convert off hits way easier, you don't want to think of health as individual points, but rather how many combos you can take most of the time, so even if you break a combo off late, if your still over the threshold that the next combo won't kill you when otherwise it would, then it doesn't matter as much because you've still gained an extra touch. Thirdly, and as a set play goblin I'm obligated to say this. Burst does a lot more than just deny damage, it also resets advantage and cuts your opponent out of oki. This is VERY important, because it turns that hit your opponent got from a 33% of losing your character straight up if you guess wrong at the end of the combo to just a decent amount of damage and a return to neutral. Also also, Assists have much more jobs than just combo fodder, they can make space to control neutral, and hold the opponent down in block strings for either a reset or a brand-new mix, both uses also having the benefit of letting the opponent interact in a way more involved than just "do they think I burst here?" since they either have to move around/ limit the use of the space control assist or predict if you're going to do a high/low/left/right/grab/whatever on the assist aided mix up.

[@Voicelet]

I was in the motion input camp before but playing GBVS made me reconsider that. I think my fun lies in the neutral more than executing combos. But this game's combos sure look even longer than GGXX's or Blazblue's. Just a feeling though. My only gripe is that it's a tag/striker game, so I'm fine with only watching.

[@MiguelThePig]

I also think that given it's a limited time playtest a lot of people have just looked up a combo and do that one each time, which means you see the same combos over and over again. When the game is out with unlimited lab time we should see way more creative combos.

[@disonalvan]

also my favorite part in this whole alpha lab experience? spending my day at work dreaming about this new combo idea i had, rabid to go home try it, then notice it doesn't work the exact way i wanted to, but then figuring out like 3 different routes i could go for to achieve a similar result to what i had in mind i really hope they don't ruin the fun in their combo system just to appeal to people who will find something else to complain about anyway

[@tchbast1661]

The only problem I have is when people do over and over the exact same combo at EVERY CONVERSION THEY GET

[@guidomista5]

This is what happens when people play optimally

[@luigimario2008]

CONEY MENTIONED

[@Prydunable]

At least when I lose in 2 interactions in Strive, the round's over in about 9 seconds compared to 45-50 seconds; giving me all the more time to stew over what a fucking scrub I am.😵

[@xXSamir44Xx]

Don't play this game then? Not every game is gonna be for you.

[@GabbaBabbaA]

Hohhh just got done with the GGST Heavy’s vid, thought i’d check for more and BOOM!! We do be loving fighting game content!!

[@magma3960]

I think a big thing for me is that a lot of characters seem to have loops and loops just aren't compelling as combos, if someone is hitting a long string that's unique it's cool to watch but if you're watching youself get juggled with the same move 4 times in a row it's just boring. Also another weird aspect is when you recover from a combo, in guilty gear strive for instance you recover when you hit the ground and stop tumbling. This makes sense and leads to an easy way of going okay they dropped the combo I'm good now, versus this game is like oh you did the combo slightly differently? They recover in the air now for some reason leading to either your combo getting interrupted because you mistimed slightly or worse if you're being hit and don't realize you randomly recovered they can potentially loop into another combo before you even realize you had the chance to get out. In my perfect world there would just be less loops and only recover on the ground for consistency. Also side note but the timewinder whatever ball is easily one of the most annoying things in the game, never before have I seen a projectile that landing it means you get a full combo

[@Lain_IPM]

Air teching is pretty much in every anime/tag game that isnt strive, and I and most other people dislike that aspect of strive because it takes away from the skill expression of converting stray air hits into combos and also removes the concept of going for an air reset mid combo to trick your opponent up which imo is a core aspect of tag games. I do agree on the point about loops though especially when said loops are very slow like ahri's.

[@meritone6162]

I have always thought this idea of combos being player expression very odd. Are players really going to fully actualize a character's entire move list, mixing and matching all available options, in a creative tapestry never before seen while in a live match? Or are they going to do the same solved, optimal, consistent combos over and over and over, that are immediately discovered and widely circulated across social media? Which buttons I press to do more damage in the solitaire-sequence of combos isn't expressive, the decisions I made to get there in the first place are. Reading the opponent, knowing the script, reacting properly, and winning neutral is expression to me; that's the part of the match that is exciting. The idea that long combos are fine because it makes the burst system important is backwards. The burst system has to exist because watching your character get rag-dolled around for 20+ seconds with nothing to do is absolutely dreadful. If you make combos shorter, then you don't need a burst system to fix it. Just don't create the long combo problem in the first place and you don't need to then invent this solution to go along with the problem.

[@xolotltolox7626]

In Melee you actually have to use your whole tool set to combo pretty much, because you have to properly follow up on your opponent's DI. So combos are actually interactive in that game

[@garbageknights]

I looe how they said the problem isnt combos, its the lack of agency. I hope that means a slightly faster burstbar and maybe some tweaks to the problem children.

[@tinyparcel6305]

To be fair I think it's less combos are too long and more that they over did it on the hitstop so combos take more time and honestly it feels like there should be points in a combo where you should be able to tech and you can't.

[@tinyparcel6305]

I'd like to clarify I think this is mainly a problem with Darius.

[@jaywalmoose9623]

Good video with well explained points, although the first point is missing a detail A 40 hit combo with 5 points where you can take the combo in 3 different directions is definitely cool, you have 3⁵ or about 250 different routes. But what if there was a 10 hit combo with 5 points where you can choose 3 different route directions? That's the same amount of routes and player expression, in a shorter combo Obviously this is super simplified, it's just to show that longer combos don't automatically mean more player expression. They just make it easier to include more player expression

[@titusfortunus2916]

There's only ONE issue I have with the combo length. Time match length. 120 seconds for a match. 2 combos to kill. 15-30 seconds per combo. Any proper back-and-forth ends in a time out. The only time it doesn't is meter burn to close out a round or if someone royally gets dumpstered. I don't want shorter combos. I want longer rounds and a bit more HP on my characters so that it isn't "whoever gets 2 confirms wins instantly" like guilty gear and wall breaks and burst vs. This game and its 2 combo kills and assist monstrosity and burst. Also more burst gauge generation. Luckily all of these things are being addressed.

[@zechariahcaraballo8765]

I don't know why, but I was under the impression this game was supposed to focus more on neutral and have shorter combos compared to other vs fighters This isn't a complaint the game is super fun either way

[@vermaxenalwaysthemad8372]

Honestly speaking, its not that the games combos are long, its because they are usually not that exciting to watch and part of it also is lack of "weight" to your key actions

[@Lostenoch]

I feel the animation taking over is what is attributed to the "long combos" argument. Its one thing to watch your ass get beat by someone skillfully juggling you. However when the animations take over, neither of you are pressing buttons, and you are still getting your ass beat. If in those 10 seconds of a combos 8 of it are animations that require no more input while they play out, you feel those seconds longer. I havent played the game only watched and it seems to me half the time spent in game is watching attacks play out, respo d for a sec then watch another short movie.

[@BasementMinions]

Thank you for breaking this down for me! As someone who is newer to fighting games It has been really hard to form my own thoughts as I hadn't really heard the other side of the argument :)

[@darthvaderreviews6926]

I can only speak to my preferences and haven't tried 2XKO, but I personally prefer it when long combos are niche, eg. you get more damage but the return off spent resources is low enough that it's only worth learning to secure a kill, or it's got a less complex route that does the same/better damage and the longer version is only useful if you want to run down the timer or something. So essentially, IMO it should be like a Fatality, it won't come up in the average match, but if someone _wants_ style points, they can whip out a party trick. If 30+ second combos are part of a regular gameplan though, I don't think it matters if your game has a burst, I think it's gonna get old at some point. Once again though, that is only my own preferences talking

[@thatguy2377]

I guess its subjetive. I don't like receiving long combos and I don't like practicing them either. It's one of the reasons I didn't stick with skullgirls for long (at least this game has burst), I really wanted to like skullgirls, it's so freaking pretty. I prefer defending against oki, there is so much more options for the defender.

[@trashiemoviestar]

ye vs games not for u

[@Thomazbr]

@@trashiemoviestar I mean not every vs game has long combos. Marvel 2 can have long combos for sure, but most people use relatively short combos.

[@trashiemoviestar]

@ i never said that?? long combos are usually a staple of the game no matter what assist game is it unless its earlier. mvc2 isnt very combo oriented. its oki instead. but most modern assist games are not

[@Thomazbr]

​@@trashiemoviestar You said vs games aren't for him when the only thing he doesn't like is long combos tho. The most celebrated vs game isn't combo oriented

[@trashiemoviestar]

@ and that era has literally changed. The people who like mvc2 and the ppl that like modern versus games dont overlap THAT much because they are very different genres of versus games. mvc2 is alot older and oki oriented. and alot of the reason why ppl get into modern versus games is the long combos. and i doubt there will be another game like mvc2 ever again because it was a product of its time lmao

[@wispyone3702]

I think combo length is fine for higher levels but at beginer and intermediate levels, (which I felt I was at across the beta) the combo length to the proportional damage as well combined with a propensity for (again intermediate) players (including me) to find it safer to run away and punish once one character has been knocked out, the combo length begins to eat into the actual timer of the game and I experienced more time out in this beta than I have in most fighting games perhaps tekken being the only exception. I want to recommend increasing the timer but removing the round system and then maybe reducing some damage, but removing the round system would feel awful for a 2 player team, so I'm stuck on this point. I imagine it will just stay as it is, and my point is somewhat negated by "skill issue" and getting better oki, but looking out for lower levels of play seems to be a priority and this felt like a sticking point. I would also like if the game could start you off with at least 1 meter for defensive mechanics at the start of the game, but for keeping start of game damage in line maybe increasing the bars to be a 5 max and changing supers accordingly (maybe having like a level 1,2,3 system instead of the 1,1,2), but I haven't assessed the value of each mechanic so this is just my thought. I really think it would be helpful in reducing frustrating blockstrings at the start of the match. I really clicked with the game at the end but these were the two biggest pain points that made me feel like I had to stop playing. I also really just haven't found a second character to enjoy and playing ahri (the seemingly most problematic character from the alpha) seemed to only increase my feeling of pointlessness and opponent runaway once one character died. But I look forward to game more than before, which is cool.

[@pidspuppetshow]

People just want a way to interact during a combo. Smash bros has DI, which is an incredible mechanic to give both players agency during a combo. That’s what people are complaining about here. When you are getting combo’d you don’t get to play for upwards of 25 seconds! I know it’s fun for the people who lab combos, and everyone else is just supposed to get gud, but I promise you the combos you think are so fun and expressive are boring to others because they don’t get to play the game. This will make new players leave the community and this game is supposed to be free-to-play to attract new players and grow the community. We’re not asking for shorter combos. We want a specific mechanic built in that lets defending players have escape routes during combos that you need to read. Maybe we can we tech off the wall or the floor. Maybe we can push you a little forcing you to microwalk in a direction to keep your combo going, etc. The answer isn’t, we are wrong, it’s that there is a flaw to combos in general and we want to explore options that give everyone what they want.

[@vipxv]

I got a headache from the part you explained your combo im sorry

[@HotCrossB1S]

Lots of insight here, thank you Mr. Venture 🙂

[@iliakatster]

I think personally I'd be fine with the combo you showed if it wasn't off a light. Yeah its hard now, but after a year of practice it could easily become a bnb and if it happens off every hit that would be terrible. Let combos be ham if they start with a heavy, you used the high risk/high reward button, you've earned it, but combos off light should have harsher hitstun scaling to limit their length to a magic series, assist call, into KD at most.

[@iliakatster]

Many anime fighters with long combos already have a similar system such as different starters starting the combo with a specific untech time, or guilty gear strive's gravity scaling system. Like yeah a light combo is going to be prorated and do no damage but people don't experience punishment through damage but combo length. The same long combo off a mash out as a carefully constructed setup means the game will start to feel monotonous, robbing the high risk plays of their hype factor.

[@pupondrun]

I never understand what “player expression” really means. Most combos are ‘optimized’ and are just the same routes each time isnt it?

[@xolotltolox7626]

It's a buzzword that is mostly meaningless, but tends to get thrown around a lot

[@zachstarattack7320]

I do not appreciate this take. I find that even though there's some hardness and many points of failure, (all those Yasuo things you mentioned have a hold buffer btw lel) it still isn't interesting to watch or get hit by because you're ultimately going for the same thing. There is emergent gameplay that emerges in the lab and then is repeated in real matches in a formulaic way. Long combos are only ok with smash bros style DI and SDI. Interacting with a combo by bursting in it isn't an excuse because burst is usually not there

[@noro_2520]

Eddventure with another banger

[@MegafanX123]

I have said this in other video and i will say here too: Tbh the feel that i have with 2XKO its that they pretend to make a fg easier when what makes a fg hard (and an actual fg) its the neutral. By only removing the inputs will only show this faster. If they did a fg with inputs but no difference between high/low blocking, and no knockdowns (And anything that has become a term such as happy Birthday, plink, kara cancel), with air blocking,the genre would be much more accessible.

[@dominiccasts]

Fantasy Strike did more or less what you suggested, and I've been using it as my go-to example of the exact same streamlining difficulty phenomenon you are pointing out here. I think it's just an inherent part of the genre, and I agree that having more stuff to learn and potentially mess up you usually don't have to deal with pure neutral until you've had plenty of time to learn the rest of the systems against people who are also coming to grips with the mechanics, so that by the time you get there you more likely know what you are doing.

[@thewarrior195]

Damn, the Akira/Tetsuo reference is key! Great argument overall!

[@shanehubble]

You said over 10 seconds without playing. The combo you showed went 40 seconds…

[@dangtiendung4766]

UMVC3 Dr.Doom combo is what this game need. It's not about how long or difficult the combo is, We just need to see impressive looking combos.

[@xolotltolox7626]

Tbh, long combos are an issue in all traditional fighting games, because they are inherently uninteractive. You get hit with the combo starter, and then there's nothing you can do from that point on, other than hope your opponent drops the combo In platform fighters for example you have DI(directional influence) with which you can influence your launch trajectory, meaning you actually get a chance to mix-up your opponnent and see if they can properly react to your DI and it can help you get out of combos SDI as well, but that's a weird one, so...

[@xiongray]

That art looks great

[@ottersaurus]

I don’t really care about the combo length. It is the damage, I get hit by one bnb and I’m dead from 75% hp

[@xolotltolox7626]

This truly is a league of legends fighting game then lol Shouldn't gave expected anything less from riot

[@DrMorganstien]

Cool vid, always excited for a solid Ed video

[@NoshuHyena]

I don't think long combos are an example of player expression. Personality is way more deeply expressed in how you interact with and respond to your opponent, what they're doing, and what they're thinking. This is usually neutral stuff, and the best example of that are games with highly expressive movement. Combos in games like 2XKO have no player interaction, aside from the once-per-round-ish dynamic save. When there's no interaction, there's nothing being expressed. You're just kind of masturbating by yourself.

[@bumibomber]

The entire segment on the combo difficult felt like someone explaining how the half the cast of undernight's simplest combos go, which isn't really a knock on this game's execution difficulty and more how absurd undernight's is

[@fadepanther6224]

Thank you for popping up in my feed. I didn't know anything about this game. But, that also might be due to me not having a PvP mindset. Don't get me wrong, I love fighting games. Against NPCs. So, against people I... do not hold up well mentally. Win or lose, I hate myself afterwards. Either for being too cruel in how I won, or for losing. Against NPCs, it is different. They're playing by their own rules, thus winning, or losing, doesn't feed my mental downgrade. THAT IS JUST ME though. This looks very good, and I do like the indepth talk about the combo system involved instead of "Nah it is just better than you think. Just trust me bro." That, and I do like seeing how the dev team is actually listening to the fan base. (I feel these days that's way more rare that it really should be) This is now on my radar, but don't expect to see me in any PvP lobby. XD

[@Nyarlartt]

This game looks sick af. Can't wait to play it once it's available. Best part is I can beat league players in their own universe

[@Lackingagoodname]

Honestly my biggest complaint about the game is that it’s a league fighting game like I don’t want to have to fight against people who are notorious for being toxic like couldn’t this have been anything other than League of Legends, I love everything else about the game and I love the fact that bursts function the same way as in Y.O.M.I. Hustle.

[@RuggaRoll]

You said this was a criticism made by multiple (numerous) alpha testers and that’s just not true. Most people complaining, never even got a code, or played against someone good enough to pull these combos off Most of these guys complaining don’t even have a history with fighting games they are just afraid of stuff they saw on Twitter that they don’t even understand.

[@ReneGade405]

I much enjoyed the double ko alpha

[@bcndooz3294]

2XKO looks great, and I'm excited to see how the scene around it forms, but I'm not gonna be playing it myself. Reason being I'm just not a fan of assists and the absurd things they can enable (coming from a guy whose most played Steam game is DBFZ), whether that be ToD's, perfectly safe hard to block mixups, or locking down neutral. The power level of a game being too high ruins the fun for me

[@Hardcrafter2807]

Honestly, I do not have the timing to pull off that combo you showed. I'm a filthy casual so my combos are at best "button, button, special, button, button, special" if the first special even lets me hit another button lol

[@ThePoodle]

edd my boy thou art based full well. I do think even if the game continued as it currently exists, people would learn to more effectively spend defensive resources and minimize combo opportunities.

[@ThePoodle]

personally yasuo loops were easier to learn than anji dc kou loops for me, but that's probably just because im better at fgs now

[@zechariahcaraballo8765]

I hope the combos are shorter but not like 3 hit short, and I don't get why ppl think easy combos is a problem not that this game doesn't have both easy and hard combos

[@Radiant_Veil]

God I just need a puppet character so bad

[@MrBoingus]

i really appreciate this video. to be honest, i was NOT sold on this game for a few reasons, just conceptually. the main one is that Riot is absolute fucking poopoo doodoo dogshit at balancing. league, at least. at any given time, you have about 5-10 champions who are so strong that you're basically guaranteed to see them in a game if they arent banned. completely coincidentally, im sure, these characters tend to be their best at selling skins. so if youre a league player you just kind of have to live with a champion like yasuo or ahri getting privileges that nobody else gets for multiple years. however, seeing this video and knowing now that multiple fighting game community members are involved... im much more hopeful about its balance. i was also worried about the ease of the games combos, as league champs arent exactly known for being mechanically complex. they arent even really known for being mechanically intermediate... but this video has also assuaged my worries on that. i can now comfortably say im excited to play this game. my FAVORITE League character happens to be a relatively popular/important champion in the current lore (warwick) so im pretty confident he will make the roster at some point. thank you eddventure, very cool!

[@chrishaven1489]

Hmmm. I'm pretty sure the balancing team for league and 2xko are two entirely different departments. That's like expecting two 20th Century Fox movies to have the same film crew

[@MrBoingus]

@chrishaven1489 I expected them to have the same "the Champs that make the most money are the strongest" philosophy. your comment seems unnecessarily derisive

[@chrishaven1489]

@@MrBoingus You're complaining about the balancing issues of League and conflating it with the balancing of 2xko which are two entirely different games which subsequently require two entirely different balancing teams

[@bkdyno]

Holy shit that WAS you in the lobby

[@SlaytonSlaytonSlayton]

I think it's fine IF they make burst gain scale with combo length. If you do a long combo, you should have to seriously consider burst baiting at some point. Right now, it's def too long, especially Ahri and Yasuo since they have really stable combos and basically get the same loops off of any hit, so it can feel repetitive. I wouldn't complain if combo length got chopped in half, either though. What the game really needs is more in the way of defensive mechanics though. Matches feel really one sided once someone loses momentum and gets stuck in the oki / combo slog.

[@BilliamTorpedo]

Ive only started hearing the "combos are too long" thing when mk1 came out, which is a game that has a huge portion of casual players that probably arent into fighting games and just wanna press buttons. If you get combo'd you cant press buttons, so naturally they dont like them.

[@mirramig]

Long combos are not bad. But if EVERYONE is able to pull off long combos without insane amounts of practice and setplay then it becomes a problem. If you practice a 40 hit combo for a very long time to be able to pull it off in a game, you deserve to do that combo. If you practice it for only a few days and can flawlessly do it, then its either a problem with the character or the systems theyre abusing. either way its a problem

[@HeeminGaminStation]

Yeah I bet a lot of combos “aren’t that simple” when the timing gets thrown off from an opponent disconnecting.

[@RIPCrazyFrog]

I think combo length is fine, except for Ahri. She has loops that go on for ever.

[@cob1million]

I think this video just confirmed that the game is not for me, which is fine. BBCF and +R will always be there for me. 🙂

[@Nespeon]

You really didn't sell it, sorry

[@tylercafe1260]

Fighting games is the most subjective genre simply due to the fact there's not many ways to make a unique one without taking huge risks. But that's why it's very careful FGC devs listen to their playerbase closer than any other game. If people don't like it then it will kill the game. Look at DFO. Didn't change anything at all and nobody plays it now. There will always be "imbalance" because of matchups like zoner vs grappler or zoner vs rushdown but if it's not done in a meaningful fun way then its entire purpose is flawed.

[@micakim-shapiro6035]

It's kinda funny to say, bu this video has done a better job of getting my hype for 2XKO than anything else.

[@SaiyanMeditation]

Good video

[@Luchamasterfit]

The first issue yo immediately bring up is no assist should do an otg restand (for lack of a better term) for combo purposes. Thats an unbalancable nightmare of a mechanic long term not even mentioning the fact that its also an incredible block pressure assist and neutral assist. As more characters get developed the potential for abuse will spiral. I'm fine if you can time the assist to catch landings on the path down but otg absolutely not. As for combo length. Yeah thats not really player expression. No matter how free form you make combos, optimals eventually exist and will be used by the majority of players. Furthermore, we have enough player expression with assists, fuses, and team setups. We dont need 20 seconds of non interaction happening on practically any opener. I say this as a huge lab rat that typically plays combo intensive characters in FGs. It hurts matters intensely that the games animations, hitstop, and transitions are all very slow. Its frankly obnoxious. Had fun, but there are a lot of issues to address.

[@TheDesknight]

Litterally singleplayer gameplay in a fighter.

[@ParryTFronters]

I actually really dislike combo structure that says the most optimum way to do a combo is to not let the opponent move at all. TODs, 30 second combos, the like, are the bane of my fun in a game. Some people like them, especially when it's like a badge of honor to find a TOD, but I think those are unhealthy for a game that is free to play, and therefor likely to have a higher-than-average beginner player count... Combo routes will always be more interesting to me when you don't need to literally break your controller/hand to do them, and while yes, this game has a burst, its set to hitting two buttons, not 3/4 like other games, so it's more likely to come out on accident by new/beginner players mashing. On the other hand, there is something I actually dislike more than the combo structure in this game, being the rollback, but that's more of a problem with the net code than the game itself. Side note; why can Braum's shield special block behind him for some character's moves? Example being Ekko's forward S1 cross up.

[@tchbast1661]

The sad thing is that some easier combos do more dmg...

[@damiens4601]

I played a lot of dbfz, it was so annoying whatching the same endless combos over and over again... i like short and cool combos better

[@nobodywashere3123]

I also think a big part of it is that, there is a TON of fresh meat that just never realized how lucky they had it playing 1v1 games (even if its fast paced like gg- ur not getting hit with degen 5 way mixups into 2 touched to death) so they are probs just upset that it feels like they need to hold back forever, and some moves arent super easy to tell how to block. I had a friend play with me everyday of this beta whos first ever fighting game was tekken 8. They would complain everyday that "blocking felt useless" only for us to spend 5 mins in private lobbies labbing what to do against stuff like ahris rekka, and the complaints about her rekka seemingly stopped near instantly. I think the real issue with the game isnt the game, its the players. New meat has been conditioned to not hold back for more than 3-4hits on average, most of these games have generous ways to help deal with movement, neutral in a lot of modern games is kinda just run at each other and do stagger pressure, and again. No other game in the past 5-6years could have prepared u for the degeneracy of tag games. Sure u could play bbtag or mvc3, but their online communites arent the same, u wont get fellow newbies in ur games unless u went out of ur way to find fellow noobs, there was nothing to prepare the fragile egos

[@Vernafveik]

I feel like criticising a game for having it’s own feel with it’s combos is a bit silly. I’m don’t play SF because how those games handle their combos isn’t for me. I don’t play DBFZ because how it handles it’s combos isn’t for me. That doesn’t mean every game has to have the combo systems of Killer Instinct or Strive because it’s specifically what I want from a fighting game. Let games have their own feel and if it isn’t your vibe, that’s fine, plenty of other fighting games out there.

[@jeezi3620]

I love you Eddventure please have my goobers

[@YoursTruely]

By playing a tag fighter you signed up for long combos lol

[@rafresendenrafresenden.1644]

Dragonball says Hi

[@benj4845]

looks like the average uni2 combo

[@hentacletentai2160]

I found an easier way to do the Yasuo loop, first jump cancel do forward jump, second jump cancel do a neutral jump, that would put you closer to the enemy for the last forward jump cancel, no need to do any micro dash or kara at all. Like this kzbin.info/www/bejne/eHm7lJingsd7itE

[@falorectic3219]

A lot of combos are too long Once learned its just a matter of landing that first hit to keep your opponent bored for however long it is I understand why their cool But their both a high barrier too entry and the boot if you not willing to do homework for your character

[@Twoby]

I absolutely love the combo system as it is in this game! I really enjoy the creativity and expression you can have in your combos. I really hope the complaints won’t ruin this..

[@Xuazier]

Ain’t nobody paying money to get long combo’d bro.

[@kataarifox]

it's ftp lol

[@ThisisKyle]

Nation add a feature in all fighting games in my opinion to where you can counter someone's combo while they're in the middle of it by pressing a button that's similar to their. I think Killer Instinct has something like this.

[@K-martSalesperson]

Thing is we have games like unist and DBFZ to look at as reference. Unist has long free form combos because of reverse beat and DBFZ also has long combos with assists that can do a ton of damage as well. Thing is neither of these games have a burst type system that you interact with like Guilty Gear I think 2XKO has a lot going for it and I am excited to see more of it. The assist intricacies also add a lot of depth and cool factor.

[@zerox3448]

My only complaint is that my nigga Garen isn't in the game yet. Bro is like the John of league of legends, and he's my favorite character.

[@androgynousaardvark7415]

This video has the best explanation of "player expression" via combos I've ever heard. I usually just hear it explained in terms of optimization, and that usually means optimal damage, usually in the context of doing a harder combo. While I can appreciate that deciding to focus on a harder combo and show off your hard work counts as a type of expression, the skill barrier tends to make me think of it as being less a matter of expressing yourself and more a matter of what's feasible. Hearing the mention of utility and all the examples given early on in this video makes it sounds like a much less nebulous concept than I had been thinking of it as. Edit: The sense of reward from harder combos is something I hadn't thought about in the context of player expression before either. The part of the video that takes about holding down-back to input the Ekko assist and Yasuo's j.2H together reminded me a bit of comboong Zangief's Hellstab into his level 2 in SF6 by hitting MP in the middle of the first qcg motion. I'm not good enough to do it in a match yet, but I find the extra layer of the input you have to do to perform it fascinating, and it's rewarding to land even in training mode. So, all in all, this video really helped put things in perspective.

[@disonalvan]

combos are a bit too long in some cases but i'm tired of this whole player agency bs talk, if you took the hit you took the hit and you'll pay with AT LEAST 15 seconds of your life, so make sure to stop mashing on every single wake up or you'll face the consequences

[@milesv5579]

Yeah cause its very fun to watch your character get stuck in an infinite cause you screwed up one interaction and you are just doomed to be juggled the whole round. By the same combo that you saw the last 8 times. And before you say uh 🤓Skill issue that just shows why fighting games will fall off after a while.

[@Hotashi]

ekko is busted

[@eddventure6214]

@@Hotashi Rewind! Hangtime!

[@d4cheartbeam]

Y’all want to see what long combos really look like, boot up power rangers

[@RuggaRoll]

But I’m happy you made this video, and heavily defend this game. The game is fast paced, and volatile which is often the most entertaining fighting game (insert UMvC3 and Melee, the biggest and most long standing fighting games in history) no one who is playing well ever makes this complaint. It’s always people who just refuse to sit and learn the game.

[@xolotltolox7626]

Melee actually has interaction during combos, and doesn't turn into a single player game for the duration of the combo, and combos in MvC3 are over much faster than 2xko

[@RuggaRoll]

@@xolotltolox7626 what???? UMVC3 has some of the longest combos we’ve ever seen. Dante?? Doom loops? Magneto loops?? Vergil??? Dr Strange???? Spencer?? Omg😂😂TaC INFINITES?? Have you ever even watched a high level marvel match? Causes there’s no way you just said that and meant it.

[@xolotltolox7626]

@@RuggaRoll a vergil combo that takes you from 100-0 is over quicker than a basic ahri string

[@RuggaRoll]

@@xolotltolox7626 and for melee.. lmao have you not seen chain grabbing. Have you not seen ice climbers. You definitely just came to yap. Thanks for proving my point though.

[@RuggaRoll]

@@xolotltolox7626 ima give you a chance to fact check yourself, cause you’re about to really embarrass yourself if you let me show you how long these combos actually take Like how off you are… omg it proves my original comment so hard lmao

[@offthesplat5863]

I dont like doing long combos with her, I hate doing long combos in general, its not fun for anyone

[@trashiemoviestar]

this isnt the game for you

[@vipxv]

Claiming it's not fun for anyone is just false logic

[@seikanekasin]

This game better fucking fail its such a boring degenerate mess and Riot getting any foot in the FGC is gonna be awful.

[@gumbus4707]

people that don't like getting hit by combos because they are boring simlly do not want to put time into learning their own combos and don't like that others are willing to put in the work to perform them you can not convince me otherwise

[@puppetmaskerr]

The problem isnt combos afaik about the complaints but that they are un-interactive due to poor defensive options and too common in the sense that conversions into these mega combos are fairly common compared to other fighting games.

[@Sorrelhas]

Bro thinks evidence, logic and a well structured argument are enough to win a FGC Twitter debate

[@tahashina6557]

Eight seconds ago hellooo

[@GFClocked]

I saw the game has unlimited fps. I thought its the same as tekken 8 Overlay where the tickrate (60hz) gets interpolates to look pleasant and not juddery like the older fighting games. But i was wrong, there's no interpolation in this game. What a colossal fail. What is this 1990s? 60hz is shi* on anything other than CRTs, which are unfortunately dead and out of production for the last 15 years. So to make these games look any good (motion clarity and fluidity wise) you need a lot more fps than what you needed on crts when the genre was invented. It simply doesn't work great on current displays. It's time for unlocked framerate for fighting games. And to anyone who says "Bruh do you even know what frame data is?" there's a difference between logic tickrate and render pipeline. You can have as many fps on fighting games as you want, tekken 8 overlay is proof of this. Yet no content creator has even mentioned this. The game is coming out in 2025, I'm sorry but 60hz is not good enough anymore.