I thought it's always been 4, attacker, defender, support and scout

People do need to understand that even if you're making a "competitive" game, you still need people to... Actually play them. So compromises do need to be made to appeal to both the less and more experienced sides. Otherwise the game community dies off quickly as it becomes impossible for new players to get into the game and old players get bored and frustrated at the lack of players.

I mean the engineer role can be a 4th role that tap in the 3 other ones when given enough time to setup

Honestly, you should have revealed your fourth class to be recon in the beginning and I could have saved myself 20 minutes. Like everyone is already saying, it's just a support class.

Rouge\stealth ??

I don't think recon could be a core class, it feels kinda tactical FPS specific

Support/healer can be split to 2 classes, most games just like to keep them together or class them under the same name Tho you can definitely just say healing your team is supporting your team, but that isnt about the difference between support and healing, thats just because the word "support" is vague You could also split movement or assassin from DPS, the characters that focus more on stealth or movement rather then pure damage. Like the difference between bastion and genji in overwatch. Main issue tho is, just like recon, that probably cant be a main role mostly because RPGs dont have the same emphasis on movement most the time

First example he shows for DPS (warrior in ff14) is a tank lol

Comeback mechanics are very game dependent when it comes to competitive fairness, as it often depends on how much randomness is inherent in the game. Fighting games are literally genres that test your consistency. Thus, a comeback mechanic is mostly a bone that developers throw to weaker players to give them a fighting chance, making them inherently unfair but acceptable. In games with more random elements like FPS or even fantasy sports titles, comeback mechanics exist to prevent snowballing from the opponent due to lucky shots, scores, timings, etc. The "fairness" of these mechanics hinges on how much randomness contributes to an opponent's success and how much said opponent is rewarded from said success.

I don't mind losing as long as the person i'm fighting against is at my lvl not some person with 1k hours in the game

Before I watch I would just like to say, although this makes me sound 10 years old, brawl stars has a nice system. However brawl stars isn’t a game where defense is prevalent, so this won’t work anyway

Utility is a broad term that is often something left behind or not thought of.

In the game Plants Vs Zombies Battle For Neighborville, there is a 4th class that goes by the name lf "Swarm". The idea of swarm characters is for them to stay close to other swars characters to gain extra armor. The more swarm ally characters there are, the better. Heck, these swarm characters also interact with spawnable npcs. And it gets better with the upgrade system. While in execution this concept could be done better (i fucking hate yeti imp), it still an idea that should be considered, as this concept actually fits with the thematic of Bfn ans the main thign that sets it apart from its predecesors: working together as a team to achieve victory. Imagine how this idea could be expanded. Playing with different swarm gives other boost to other allies. Like speed, damage, some energy, etc. Honestly, with some proper balancing, this idea could be great for team-oriented games.

I have an idea, anti-fighter, the anti-fighter is a class that interacts with the other team, they fight as the enemy tho they sabotage In actual fights like they bring the wounded comrades back to base and hold strongholds for the friends.

its so funny that you open by talking about your offensive classes and the first one you name is a tank from final fantasy 14

Any other class would have to just make it so you get rid of the support class and split it. So healer is its own class. Because support is basically two classes or can be. Healer and Disrupter

now... here me out. what if... since fighterz is more popular then ever (due to rollback.) and people have had a LONG time to study the characters... why not just condense the roster and actually let installs be a thing in the game? imagine how much more hyped an EVO would be if youre playing base vegeta, and you have 7 bar, all of a sudden youre playing blue vegeta and have half your health back. look, i just want fighterz to stay for a really long time. it has the potential too. lol

the 4th class will always be either flank or game specific class type.

Honestly, defense classes are just support classes, and attackers still help the team, so every character is a support class for their team

tank, dps, healer, buffer/debuffer, aoe crowd-control, summoner, trap-sapper

I’ve seen games try to justify classes that can manipulate maps and objects as a 4th class but it could also be easily justifiable as a defensive class

There was a game, forgot the name, that has a debuffer role. It basically lowers the opponents resistance, armor, etc.

Recon feels too close to support imo

All thing that is not focus on dealing damage(offense) or taking damage(tank) are something that helping the team(support). Otherwise you are not dealing damage nor taking damage and also not doing things that help the team, then you might as well afk.

Support can be broken into healer and utility. This video is pointless

tank damage healer AND support ez

Literally no mention of Battlefield.

I split support into 2 classes. support and healer, support is the sniper or high damage at range and recon class, where as healer is a low health low damage but the ability to heal a lot,

I like the way paladins did it, by splitting attackers into two distinct categories, damage or flanks, damagers are self explanatory, high damage, generally aoe attacks, and standard movement, but flanks are built to get to the back of the enemies to deal with supporters and long range attackers. Flanks have high single target attacks and high mobility. The other two classes are frontlines, which are your tanks and area controllers, and supporters who are buffers and healers. Having flanks changes a lot of the strategy because it means you have to be constantly vigilant and mindful of where the squishies are. Damage characters have medium health pools, and can generally deal with flanks easy, frontlines have health for days and deal with flanks for brekky, but the supporters have extremely low health and are generally focused on helping the frontlines and damages. Flanks are unique in the fact they have self sustainability, but have small health bars. They play the midpoint between TF2s scout and spy.

Attacker and Defenders are offense and defense. Split support to Offensive support, info/disrupt/debuff. And defensive support. Healer, shield, disengage.

I think an interesting case study is original everquest. For grouping in most places, you **need** a healer, a tank, and at least one dps, group size is 6 though, and with 3 you will be very inefficient so you want more. A common next want is a puller, this doesnt really seem to exist in most other games but in everquest, magic users need to sit, a lot, to regain mana so parties tend to sit in one spot and the puller pulls enemies to the party. The puller is the closest thing i can thinm of to a true 4th role, in eq these are, generally, either dps or support classes but when acting as a puller, in a group thats really firing on all cylinders, their damage ceases to matter basically at all, the best pullers litterally just go get a mob, come back to the party, let the tank get agro and then run off to get another mob, way before the first enemy dies. Eq also, like many other games, has pretty distinctive types of support which is really ampretty broad category, healers, controllers, buffers, debuffers, etc. and all of those have sub divisions. But a puller, really, really, feels like a completely different role.

So, if we're talking about MMO'S the trio is Offense, Defense HEALER. In some instances a secondary "support" role has been experimented with. In WoW for instance one specific spec, Augmentation Evokers, are offensive players focused on supporting their teammates while sacrificing personal damage. Games like FFXIV also do this to a lesser degree with certain classes that sacrifice personal damage in exchange for buffing others, like Dancer.

In FFXI there was a non-official role that many parties demanded to have, the "refresher". Since the game did not have passive MP regeneration aside from resting, some very expensive items and a specific job with that trait, it meant that any job that could cast the spell refresh or an equivalent that gives MP regen over time was in high demand, and most of its role was making sure everyone had MP, and usually used buffs/debuffs in the meanwhile. It was basically a "catalyst" for the rest of the party. You could also say it is an MP healer, but the purpose of that would be different, since you can work with limited MP within the fight, and mages just resting while not casting. Instead, what this did was making every fight faster, since everyone could use their resources more freely and do more damage with less downtime between fights.

TF2 does this perfectly with spy. If he can't be an effective pick, he can make up for it with Intel, and let the snipers handle it

War for cybertron had : 1. Healers ranged damage low health 2. Tanks high health short range 3.Leaders with mid range guns, and buffs 4. Scouts with low health, shotty snipers, stealth

Bouncing off of Apex, I think Skirmisher is an ill-defined role, but CONTROLLER would be a perfect 4th role for all gaming catagories. This falls into place with characters that are intel based like Cypher and Crypto, while also making room to define characters in Dungeons and Dragons that we would refer to as "skill-monkeys" (Rogue, Bard) whose role encompasses more covert/tactical/skill based style of play, as opposed to any of the offense, defense, or support.

Most people hate these kind of roles but id say Intel is the often forgotten 4th role. Commander in bf4, pvz garden warfare, hell let loose. Roles that are essentially just a spectator with extra gimmicks, like the cam operators when you die in r6 siege

I also think many people misconstrue "Fair" and "Balanced" with each other. They're not the same.

Leader/Boss should be considered a class. Hell Let Loose and Star Wars Battlefront are good examples of how this class could alter the way people play. The Leader/Boss is easy to identify by sight and sometimes marked on the map. In exchange for your whereabouts constantly shown to the enemy, you get access to massive damage/support options that could alter the composition and focus of both teams

Post combat utility, duh.

Stealth is the fourth class

No Recon can't be the next core class cause it's at best a subclass to support. As others have said in the comments here support is too broad for their to ever be a new core class. Hell as is there is a good argument that defense isn't distinct enough to be it's own class. Isn't putting up shields and drawing fire away from the offense just another form of support? Personally I dislike "Support" as a core class to begin with and should be in general referred to as "Healer" Or "Medic" as then it means buffing and debuffing isn't out of place on other classes. It's not common that anyone wants to be the dedicated support person as it feels like you're just sitting back letting everyone else have the cool stuff to themselves. Making it Healer instead of support does fix this as now if you want to be the healer you can do that even better, but if you don't want to you can be another class and have support options available to you so you can still get in on the action and not suffer from a lack of a supportive character.

The problem is defining support as everything that isn't either attack or defense. Once you have a label that literally goes on anything that doesn't get a specific label, you're by definition done with labeling and have no use for extra labels.

Here’s what I think: A way to stray away from support would by making the new class more selfish. Support is very selfless. Low HP and helps out their teammates with heals and sentries as such, while they defend them. A class that acts on their own could be a good 1-player class that don’t defend anyone, defend anyone or support anyone could work. Like a Stealth/Ranger class that can quickly take down sentries or deal damage from afar.

Probably dont play ff14 but warrior is actually a tank, a rather good survival tank that has more heals than the other 3 tanks (since last i played a few years ago)

I think engineer/controler and tank are two totally different roles. Controllers job is to create/simulate/counter a numbers advantage. Tanks job is to physically shield allies and obststruct enemy progress. You might say controllers obstruct progress, but their main purpose is to prevent flanking or draw attention away from the objective, not directly protecting the objective. Any support that doesn't do stat modification is a misclassified controller. So Damage, Tank, Control, Buff are your four classes and that aligns perfectly with old RPGs that had those exact classes.

Final Fantasy 14 has a fourth class. It was called Supporting DPS. You have the Tanks who tanked things, Healers who healed things, DPS who killed things, and the supporting dps who kill things not as well, but give things like mitigation, mp, and MORE and BIGGER damage numbers to everyone. In the harder fights, they are as indispensable as a tank or healer or having good dps yet are not good enough to bring ONLY supporting dps because the checks won't be met and they NEED to be there to meet the mitigation and damage checks.

I've always seen crafters and resource gatherers as a 4th roll in mmorpgs. It is a very different roll and often doesn't even interact with the combat itself. Then again, it still can be fall under the support umbrella.

Bs mechanic removal class, the purpose is to rid of immune phases, poison waters, make damages not 1 shot, and be a last resort to team wipes

The problem is, a 4th class would also be support. The SOLUTION is specialization between the two. Clear strengths and weaknesses exclusive to those classes. The entire point of a class is to specialize in one aspect, and be bad at another, necessitating having someone else use another class to supplement the weaknesses. That’s balance. The two support classes could boost diffenet aspects of the team specific to each.