its the tactician class. the objectives-based class that deal in info, control, and technical aspects.

after watching the video, i came to the conclusion it all relies on the way the game is played, but mostly, fast-paced games like Overwatch, TF2 and R6, dont have much time to do anything other than "kill, help and dont let them kill" , which is justified in most games, since the focus is on the players doing stuff, and in PvP and most PvE games, the 3 core classes are all that is needed to make the game work. Similar to the DRG and rpgs example you gave, if games had more time to act on stuff, there could be a 4th class or even 5th that focuses on alternative interactions on the game. For example, in MOBAs like LoL and DotA2 we could have a 4th core class that is more focused on info like the recon example, or one similar to a support that could give extremely different buffs to allies that can change the way that their characters can play, or even one that simply specializes in playing a bit with the game's rules or even breaking it to the team's benefit, or one that focus more on interacting with the map rather than players, all those examples(and possibly more, i just cant think of more) could only work in a MOBA game that allows players to act with such tools, they all could just get useless or counterproductive in a game that may favor more an aggressive or instantaneous(as in, insta kill) enviroment. But overall, i think that a class that has less of a focus on interacting with players and more with the game/map/enviroment/whatever, would be a 4th core class that could simply fit in any and all games.

if a character creates misinformation for the enemies (ex. creating clones but does nothing, creating fake jump pads, chest that explodes when players interact or something else), in which category would be?

me who plays valorant where there is alrady 4 classes

You could consider the debuff class to be a 4th pillar. They are the opposite of the support class in that they don't do anything to strengthen teammates, only weaken enemies. Hit the opposing tank with a vulnerability debuff and the tank goes down quick. Many games that have this also give support class characters the ability to heal debuffs. I consider the two different enough to be different pillars entirely.

My problem with categorizing recon/intelligence as a 4th core class is that in a team game with open communication, all players should be doing their best to inform the rest of their team what they know and what the enemies are doing. Obviously you could gear a character that suits this role better or has tools to specifically help their team, but just like a movement support character, that's close enough that I feel it falls under the support category.

Imagine a second triangle Recon tracks Movement Sabatuers mess with Recon Movement outruns Sabatuer

I would say that Mitsuru/Fuuka from Persona 3 and the others that fill this role in the persona games could count as recon for an RPG

But the tank is a support too.......

Support is too broad of a term for this reclassifying thing to work. Debuffers, mezzers, trappers, commanders, a comms guy, and what have you are aways being swept under the generalization when they each a have diff focus. Not gonna work.

The real 4th class: “The troll class, for those who either want more of a challenge, are sadistic, or are masochistic” *actively makes things harder for the team by blocking, moving, pushing, debuffing and crowd controlling*

The problem is that “support” is usually defined as “anything that isn’t offense or defense”. By definition there cannot be anything else.

The secret 4th class is the random shit go class

Recon and Movement both fall into support

One thing that maybe could work for the recon class in more fight-heavy games is including characters that use clever tactics, speed, and agility to win fights instead of strong attacks

I always picture 'Control' as a separate 4th main stay in games. While you can have that with a support, most of the time when you think of a support you think of a buffer/debuffer/healer(or all three) rather than someone who forces the flow of combat to be more advantageous to your side via mainly AoE abilities. These abilities are most often not extremely potent, unless you hang out in them, but still do a noticeable amount of damage, or effects, to weaken the enemy in one way or another. These abilities can also just outright deny an enemy from going in one direction, as well. Mei's Ice wWallis a good example.

Would you consider Junglers in mobas to be Recon? They're not bound to the lanes and have the potential to see enemies coming before the other players do.

this man is a real one for including tf2

obv just primary military magic and support duhh

That song, that one, at 1:37, its been stuck in my head for months and i cant find it anywhere, someone for the love of god tell me its name

Me seeing Pokémon in this video just made me like: ._. .O. Whaaaa? ._.

Misgendered Bloodhound. That's cringe.

I exist for the classes that can bring upon my foes the greatest about of annoyance posible, call it mine fields, auto constructs, buff and debuffing, utility and control skills...

Interesting topic. I think that one possibility would be a character with a mission, for example carry a ball/token into enemy base while others are trying to stop it in fighter/tank/support roles. I could also imagine 'alien' type character whose mission is to evolve during match. Or have 'suicidal' role which would be anti-support with buffs that are harmful to friendlies and a big boom against enemies.

whats the song @10:40?

You missed the grandfather of clone/compiled character, Tsang Tsung daddy of the clone fighter

Dice did that a long time ago with Battlefield (scout class)

Personally I really enjoy the way smite has its classes categorized, guardians are magical tanks, that can either be support oriented or dps oriented. Then you have warriors, physical tanks that can support their team or flex into a dps role. Assassins, quick, close quarters physical characters. Mage’s, tend to be ability based, dps characters with exceptions like ao kuang who is a jungler. Lastly, the carry role, physical dps generally at more of a range, similar to mages.

I was disagreeing with you until your last point "no, but yes", it doesn't fit within the triangle of, dealing, healing, & preventing, "damage", unless you somehow correlate it to determine/discover/predict damage; Movement is close like as to "avoiding damage" but for a movement core class, every other class would need to have limited movement. There is a sub class that isolates damage e.g. Iso from Valorant, Mauga, (D:VA disperses a fight so the opposite but same concept) from Overwatch 2, and probably others. There are also things that redirect damage somewhere else, e.g. Valorant: Gekko's Wingman, Yoru's Clone (or Old Footsteps), Killjoy's Turrets, other detection devices in the game; Overwatch: Bob, and other turrets. Like D:va & Sigma from Overwatch they absorb damage, this could be made a class that has minimal damage options, one could be like Genji's reflect, so a class that uses other damage. Possible Class Options in addition to Attack, Tank, Support: - Movement: Avoid or Escape Damage (limit movement of other classes) - Recon: Locate Damage Eddventure explained the two above in the video. (If you somehow forgot) Below are my own ideas inspired by this video and a combination of games. - Order: Isolate or Integrate Damage Could be: Forcing everyone in or out of one place; Force an encounter onto a selected or set No. of participants. [1v4, 1v1, 2v2, 4v1, etc] ; Relocating people to another place. portals, could be forced teleportation or optional, a specific person or place or both; remove access to an inner or outer area. - Decoy: Divert Damage (Distract enemy's with things such as clones, summons, turrets, illusions, or holograms, etc. [appear/are harmful tricks] to allure enemy's away from an objective/goal) - Rule: Deflect or Absorb Damage / Use Damage (Mostly self explanatory, use damage from enemy's to reflect it back upon them could be double equal or half the amount of damage or take it in to maybe heal or charge up an attack) Some of these classes could be merged into a broader class; - Scout: Avoid & Locate Damage (Movement & Recon) (All of these can be combined with movement in all kinds of ways since the classes I thought up aren't attack reliant. So depending on the game movement may or may not be an addition to each) - Dictator: Reposition & Configure Damage (Decoy, Rule, & Order) - Spy: smt about damage (Scout & Decoy); uhh stuff - Catcher (I give up) :external Damage (Decoy & Rule); I had an idea about traps or smt (Honestly combine all of them aside from movement) - The Dwindler: Diminish or Avert Damage (what) these are all still mostly sub categories anyway Thanks for reading 💀

Or we could rename support to the abler role in how it enables allies and disables enemies. Just call recon a reconbler as a new subtype.

Haha I figured it out before the big reveal! I have a moment of vigor and vitality before falling back into the humdrum of everyday life!

how about the strategist ?

I argue theres 5 classes. makes sense. DPS - big numbers, glass cannons Tank - Bulky + Damage/Damage absorbtion/Shield Health Support - heals health and maybe shields Offensive Support - Damage buff, movement buff Assassin/Spy - Take out key units: DPS/Support typically, also a wallbreaker to kill tanks

as someone who knows wayyyy too much about D&D and loves min-maxing hypothetical party builds, I find it interesting how your proposed "recon" class lines up with what's often the "fourth class" in a D&D setting - the Face. The Face is a fairly broad role but usually works well with a Bard, Warlock, or Rogue, and often functions as a mix of stealth and charisma. And they have the benefit of being useful in almost any kind of campaign: in a typical dungeon crawl, they can disarm traps and sneak into later rooms, in a low-combat high-intrigue campaign, they're the ones to roll high on an Insight check to see who's lying. Hell, in one of my first campaigns where I played a Rogue, my entire job was Recon. In RPGs, at least, they slot very nicely into the "non-combat" role, similar to how you described recon. There's no deeper meaning or purpose here, I just think the parallels between these various first person shooter games and classic RGPs are interesting :)

I think you would be able to refine your thoughts if you consider the RTS genre. limiting yourself to certain objectives due to the certain type of games you mention is what limits your idea of different classes. scouts, utility, economy, and any "anti" types have been popular. the holy trinity of offense, defense and support is popular because it is easy to understand wrt to games, which have simpler objectives by design so that people can enjoy the games. adding complexity to games will add more classes that are difficult to understand for people and they will be mostly unbalanced. this makes games devolve into another classification of rock paper scissor.

I really like how Deep Rock Galactic does it. It doesn’t really add anything that strays outside of the 3 core classes, but all of those classes abilities are scattered across the dwarves in the game, so all 4 of them can fulfill support, damage, and tank in different ways. Theres also abilities that kind of serve as both- Driller’s drills can be both a support tool to get the team out of bad situations, but its also a control tool that can remove potential enemy defenses. Scout’s pheromones will cause enemies to attack eachother, which both makes the enemies’ health go down (damage) but can also distract enemies from teammates (defense).

Attack and defense are opposite and considered separate classes, so logically supports opposite would be its own class. Introducing the non-support, a hinderance to your own team. Dishing de-buffs and amplifying enemy damage, this players of this class are considered good when they’re bad at doing their job! Alternatively, they could heal the opposing team, refusing to let bad links on the other side fall. This could cause team problems on the other side to be more pronounced? I don’t know if this would actually work in practice. This is obviously a joke, but there is something in Pokémon where in double battles some attacks hit everything on the field, but if your other Pokémon had an ability to take what would be damage and turn it inti a boost, then that disadvantage could be pulled around into an advantage. Example being discharge and the ability electric rod or something idk the names. Someone using this strategy swept my team in online play on sword and shield. Although using it that way would make this a kind of conditional support, which would combine into the support core class. It could also be leaning into DPS.

Paladins had a cool take with offense because there were 2 types, flank and damage. Damage was slow, heavy hitters with low cool downs. Flanks are fast and deal burst damage, but were extra squishy.

I think control could be another category. Like the characters that control the enemy movement with path blokers, slowers, área debuffs etc

scout/recon

maybe debuffer

I dig this, if dps and defense are both combat then support and recon are both assist. This seems way more balanced, where as before support felt like the third wheel. Damage, Defense, Stats, Info

I think a fouth class could be a character that could do all but not be brilliant at eanything

Can all-rounder be a class? Good DPS and good defense but not as good as attackers or defenders. Maybe it'll be a bit broken because it can do lots of damage but needs a lot of damage to kill.

specialist

I think summoner would work as a fourth as it can draw agro,control the battle field and is more at the back of the attack

Well, for me recon is a support if the definition of support include high mobility. For me all things considered recon is a form of support, because being exposed is the like of having a debuff. For exemple League Of Legends don't have specialized recon oriented characters because they would be to broken, but the recon habilites are for the most part in the support and jungler arsenal (jungler is a mix of offensive and mobility character played like a reservist DPS/support), and the support and jungler are the most likely to spend resources and inventory space for recon equipment or consommables.

kzbin.info/www/bejne/pn-boH6ogL9lbMU

abstractly, there are only 3 class,,,,,,hit points, speed points, buff/nerf points,,,,,, there are the only true abilities, i designed a little game around it

obvioulsy the issue is more along the lines of "how broad do we make these categories?" does support only count healing and shielding, or debuffs and buffs? a lot of bideos like this dont like to mention league of legends for some reason, but league supports =/= overwatch supports, but theyre all still called support; different games count support in different ways. so is it a subclass of a damage support versus a healing/shielding support? pyke in league is a straight on assassin, but he has 2 cc abilities which = support in league, though he'd be a dps in overwatch. so healing/shielding to protect the tank isnt integral to support in all or even most team games, like in overwatch or valorant. in fact in league healing a tank is basically useless half the time in the late game bc you cant heal that much to make much of a difference; or you cant heal at all because youre playing pyke or nautilus or braum or any other number of non healing and even non shielding supports. so what IS a support? are they a controller who heavily debuffs the enemy team or works in less solid ways to help their team (making space, creaitng openings, engaging fights, but not really lowering the enemies health or changing objective numbered stats)? or are they a defender whos meant to keep their team alive and stopping their health from going down in the first place? or are they a healer thats meant to replace health thats already gone? I really do think a big issue with the 3 to 4 class idea is that youre counting the roles as too broad, especially support. if you take everythign i just said and say "yeah those are all supports" but then go "dps/adc/duelest/damage/warrior/mage characters only have to do damage to be in the offense role" then it seems a bit like a double standard. tldr: support is being counted as too many things and could easily make a whole other class that doesnt count as a subclass but is still called support. im very open to discussion so please anyone reading this tell me your thoughts in the replies! ps: to talk about the recon class he mentioned - league of legends has the support do all the vision on the team. very normal to see less than 20 vision score for the entire team and then 80 from the support lol. additionally quinn with her e, ashe with her hawkshot, etc. would be great if he talked about league in this video bc i feel it would help him understand his own question and how it relates to gaming better, or at least give him more information. unfortuantely overwatch players hate league. they also hate their own game. very strange i wouldnt know anything about that