Are Alchemists really the worst class in Pathfinder 2e?

[@toodleselnoodos6738]

Hopefully your channel grows. We can always use more people making content for PF2e!

[@RebelThenKing]

Thanks for the early support!

[@archmagemc3561]

Alchemist is very powerful if you are allowed access to all the uncommon items Paizo has made to 'buff' alchemist. Blindpepper, goo grenades, perspine grenades, ext are very important to have access to, and are all uncommon. If you have access to them, especially the goo grenade you can slow down enemies so much they have to spend 3 actions to move 3 blocks. But without them and running into enemies that are poison immune is just not fun. They also benefit the most from Free Archtype, as you can get vertical character progression from it due to how many math fixer feats you need to get as an alchemist.

[@Seven-not-Six]

I have a question for the alchemists in general.. What's to stop someone from adding Versatile Vial's formula to your book and thus use it for advanced alchemy???? Or by taking Versatile Vial as a lvl 1 formula thus adding it to Advanced Alchemy... Thus increasing your total number of Versatile Vials at the expense of a formula slot while leveling. So, having 6 of your Advanced Alchemy items be Versatile Vials as well as having your "per day" max vial pool.??. Like, because what's to stop me from getting the Versatile Vial formula and crafting them during downtime??? Do non-alchemist have a cap on how many Versatile Vials they can create if the V.v's are a craftable item?? Appreciate any answers 🫠

[@blaydsong]

Welcome to the community! Always glad to see more PF2 content. There is one thing about bombs in general that is sorely undervalued, and that's Persistant Damage. I had an Alchemist player drop an NPC really quicly by throwing various different bombs, and causing them to burn through HP with 3 different types of Persistant Damages stacked on them (the target was also the brainwashed king of the land that they were in.... so there's that). Add in any weaknesses to the Persistant Damage, and you've got yourself a winner. :)

[@RebelThenKing]

In order to apply persistent damage, you actually have to hit, which I never seemed to be able to do 🤣

[@sfigge1355]

I have spent a lot of time trying to do something with the alchemist at low levels. My homebrew fix is granting each alchemist a level 1 perpetual infusion. That way they have a cantrip like alchemical item to fall back on. Bomber gets alchemist fire, Chirurgeon gets the new numbing tonic, Mutagenist gets a choice of mutagen (prob juggernaut), and Toxicologist gets centipede poison. Now, at level 1 and 2, you always have something you can do.

[@RebelThenKing]

Oh that's a great idea. That really lets the alchemist get creative with their daily reagents without having to be super careful to not run out of supplies. As a bomber I would have loved not spending half of my reagents first thing in the morning to prep enough Alchemist Fire to hopefully get through the day. Fantastic idea that I'll try to incorporate into future campaigns.

[@oneringtorulethemagicarp7199]

This is *extremely* powerful as the toxcoligist as perpetual infusions are already strongest on them thanks to the insane pre-buffing pottential. the poisons goes inert if not used, but no text stops it from sitting on a weapon as the "use" for a poison is when it's applied, not when it hits. otherwise, no notes, good buff

[@Raghetiel]

Guaranteed splash damage is always nice touch, especially with calculated splash. And in conjuction with quick bomber, it's a lot of guaranteed damage. Exploting elemental resistances is great, and having access to a lot of situational elixers and other weird things can be cool. In my campaign I play as an churgeon-Iron gut trash goblin. And my repeated acid damage, as well as silvershine was crucial in our fight against Werewulfs And the best part, you can make blood-eye coffee!

[@RebelThenKing]

Calculated splash is a must-have feat for bombers. I picked that one up in my campaign and it definitely helped a lot.

[@andrewdavenport7749]

Oh the frustration of missing with a bomb. Some fights I would out damage him as the healing specific cleric in our first party. Still want to try one at some point.

[@RebelThenKing]

Oh Tristan, the ultimate DPS healer.

[@PyroMancer2k]

The main issue I have with the alchemist is not what a lot of other people mention, and that is it's Prof progression. It never gets past expert in weapons and doesn't get class attribute in their stat so they lag behind the other classes in their ability to hit and it only gets worst at higher levels. At 5-6 when other Martials becomes Expert the Alchemist stays at Trained so is lagging behind for two levels until it gets expertise at 7 and then is on par with them as most had 18 Attribute and went to 19 at level 5. But when 13 rolls around and all martials go Master the Alchemist never gets that +2 from Master thus lagging behind the party forever. Elemental damage, debuffs, and etc are nice and all but you still need to hit the target for them to take effect. In regards to the video. Limited Resources: This I think is really true at early levels and can be said of a lot of spell casters as well. Though alchemist don't have cantrips to fall back on which can suck. However with the familiar for an extra regent per day and a few levels in I find I got plenty of reagents. Once level 7 hits and Perpetual items hit it basically becomes cantrip heaven for select items. As a result I rarely run low, let alone out, of prepared stuff. Sure I might use up all of a specific item but that's similar to caster using all of one spell and still having other spells. When I hit 11 I had even more freedom with even more Perpetual items and if you really like them you can take feats to expand the list. With Perpetuals you are never an alchemist without items. Alchemical Items: I think it depends on the group. I haven't had issue with group refusing mutagens I guess because none of them were really interested in them. I do make daily Life Exlixers that each party member carries in case of emergency. But my Alchemist tend to be of bomber variety and we have had some tough fights where thanks to persistent damage my character got MVP due to really poor rolls from heavy hits just missing over and over. Like in one fight I crit hit with Acid Flask and boss failed every check so it took damage every round with it contributing over half the damage in that encounter. Also I got Dread Ampule and Lightning in Bottle as Perpetual and my opening move on a lot of foes is to toss both of them, it doesn't matter that Perpetual are lower level as Alchemist Goggles gives me the same item bonus to hit of my normal items on the attack and debuff effects are same on lower level items. It's about making the target Frightened and Flat-Footed. This way we don't need to flank and ranger can get FF effect at range, plus the fear lowers all their stats. I also use sticky bomb so the high splash damage becomes persistent as I got feats that let you add INT to splash damage. Thus my perpetuals even though low level add like 6-8 persistent damage and I got multiple damage types of them so I can stack. Notes on Errata: The additional items added to the game along with the Errata to alchemist have addressed the majority of my original issues with the class. The healer alchemist for example can now have perpetual healing items instead of just treating poison and disease. It really increases it's versatility which is a good thing as that's the main selling point of the class. There were also some changes to let them craft more at the lower levels compared to release version. And overall I just feel like the alchemist has gotten stronger thanks to the Errata and additional items over time. In closing though I really like my alchemist characters and though it can feel a bit underwhelming to be doing lower numbers of damage compared to the heavy hitting martials I know the class isn't able hitting hard. It's about flexibility and in some cases consistency. Like splash damage in gonna happen unless you crit miss so tossing a few perpetuals which don't waste any resources at the foe when you have the various feats to increase splash damage to 10 ft radius and add INT to splash means you can easily get off two splash hits of 6-8 damage each for the turn to all enemies in the area. If they have weakness to the element damage you trigger it twice because it's two attacks. I haven't really tried the other research paths for the following reasons. Toxicology relies on poison which is a pain to keep track of stages and stuff where as basic persistent damage is just easier and have to apply to weapons and such. Mutagenist is just using items to turn into a front line fighter which not really my playsytle. The Chirurgeon didn't have very good perpetual options until recent errata so it was a hard pass but considering giving it a go in next campaign if we need a healer.

[@lincr.1988]

Almost 2 years ago I started playing my first d20 system: Pf2 and Alchemist was the first class I tried and boy... it's still my favorite class till this very day, being Oracle the 2nd favorite one. The class is ultra versatile (which I LOVE) and can do stuff several times a day, so I'm not limited to 3 slots per level like casters, I love it. The major complaint I read about this class is that it doesn't shine at what it does, it's not a specialist (which is the whole point of the class, sacrificing specialty for versatility) so they find it weak and dull, mundane, overcomplicated for the little it does. I actually heard people calling it an item dispenser class as well.. I don't agree with it but well.. it's what they think. I had really good experiences with this class and I honestly don't find it weak at all, just different and very interesting. - Bomber: targets weakness, debuffing and persistent damage is what it does, and it does very well. Have you seen the new Skunk Bomb? That thing is godly as a Perpetual. - Mutagenist: The drawbacks of Mutagens are not good, sure, but depending on the situation they can save your ass. Remember that as you level up the bonus just grow while the drawback remains the same. - Chirurgeon: They released a pretty nice errata to this one. Have you seen the new Soothing Tonic and Numbing Tonic? They're SO good. - Toxicologist: Most enemies have pretty high Fortitude saves, but they've added a pretty nice poison that targets Will saves and oh boy... it's good. Clown Monarch, take a look at that one please. Also, you won't poison much by yourself, you gotta keep poisoning your group's weapons after every combat and use the new Injection Reservoir as well, it's SO freaking good man.. your ally hits once and forces 2 Fortitude/Will saves with that.. it's beautiful! Oh are you holding a shield or another weapon? Shield Spikes and you're gonna have 4 doses of poison on that character. If you guys use Demoralize to help reducing the targets saves is even better. Poisons can be really nasty when they kick in, believe me.

[@RebelThenKing]

Oh nice, I'll look into those new items. I was keeping up on new alchemical items for a while, but in the last year I've just played as two casters (bard and wizard) and there are no alchemists in either party. Those two tonics you mentioned are awesome. I love that they've introduced some fast healing and overall longer lasting tonics/elixirs for the alchemist. I didn't even realize it but that was sort of missing earlier. I have enjoyed the various debuffing bombs they've released as well. One thing I didn't mention in the video was the Ghost Charge and how helpful that was in a campaign with a lot of ghosts and haunts. Another great example of versatility.

[@StonedDragons]

Currently playing a kobold alchemist and really enjoying it as the party healer but also able to hand out buffs, went chirgeon into medic archetype and doctors visitation really makes it all work combined with a valet familiar to bring my prepared elixirs directly to hand. Alchemists aren't that bad, mutagenists aside, you are the prep master do NOT save all your reagents for quick crafting as you get far less than doing your crafting at the start of the day and just leaving a couple of reagents free for emergencies. Also alchemical ammo is a thing, become your ranger or gunslingers best friend and load them up with bane or elemental ammo targeted to what you expect to run into. Also once you get injection bolts for your crossbow or the injection addon for a melee weapon the toxicologist suddenly becomes much better.

[@AlexKlindt]

I'd strongly recommend grabbing a racial weapon proficiency feat at first level. Something like Elven Weapon Familiarity on a first-level Alchemist goes a long way in letting you prep elixirs to give you and your party a decent spread of item bonuses for the adventuring day. At higher level, when you have more reagents and stronger options you can lean more into lobbing consumables for damage, particularly on a bomber with perpetual infusions on your low-level bombs. With 16 starting dex and a longbow, a quicksilver mutagen can give you comparable to-hit to a martial with that sweet deadly trait. If you get charged and are in a pinch, don't worry about getting into the melee to flank for a close-ranged martial ally. Keep in mind that if you're using a free-hand, the QS mutagen'll apply its bonus to both unarmed strikes and combat maneuvers.

[@RebelThenKing]

Ancestry-based weapon training is definitely a great idea. That simple weapon limitation of the alchemist can be tough, but gaining access to a bow or decent sword like you mentioned could be super helpful.

[@SheenaTigerspielt]

As chirurgeon, invest in crafting, it most often is likely higher than medicine and patch up the crew not with potions but that way, when possible. Thus pick up proper skillfeats and maybe even dedications to bolster it but it works pretty well without a dedication. The alchemist should simply not expect to be a burst-healer... magic clearly tops that one. But persistant, constant healing all over the battlefield. A good feat not coming in the core rules is the ability to actually throw healing potions at your friends. Thus at level 4, if I remember the placement of that feat correctly, you hopefully have battlefield medicine for a quick heal made with crafting and throwing medicine across the field to save on actions if things get messy. And all that worked well for our group without homebrews or optional rules or even errata since we started with only core rules available.

[@RebelThenKing]

Glad to see you were able to make the chirurgeon work! Healing Bomb sure is fun!

[@dilsoncamacho4100]

I'm gonna be weird here and say that I disagree with a bunch of stuff you said. I used to agree with them, but after the treasure vault book... Let's say that book is a straight buff to the alchemist class if your DM allows using it because of how many new alchemical items it adds. Heck, it's to the point that I'd say chirurgeon is as good a subclass as toxicologist or bomber, numbing tonic and soothing tonic alone make the subclass worth taking. Plus alchemists are weirdly tied by how many shenanigans your DM allows, a toxicologist for example could pre-poison a bunch of arrows for a ranger and the new brightshade poison makes it not so bad against undead anymore.

[@RebelThenKing]

Agreed that the treasure vault helped a lot. Also serving as a poison maker for the martials in your team is a great idea. I used to pre-poison several daggers for the rogue and crossbow bolts for the ranger.

[@fauxpoe]

The thing about alchemists is that most of their mutagens are worse than a scroll of heroism, which is only 30gp. Like if you can only choose between a +1 status bonus or a relative +1 item bonus with a heavy debuff, why bother with the mutagens? In this way, Trick Magic item as a level 1 skill feat and a trivial amount of gp at high levels replaces and outshines one of your key class features. Unless you're doing both yourself, at which point it's painfully obvious which one has inflated gp value. An Alchemist ends up being a worse caster than a caster and a worse martial than a caster (battle bard, warpriest, etc.) And worse than that, an alchemical sciences investigator gets master proficiency with intelligence to attack (for both melee and ranged) and precision damage on bombs and up to master proficiency. Sure your bomb level is 5 behind, but the precision damage is much better, and few bomb debuffs scale with level. Knowing you're going to hit or miss or crit changes which bomb you're going to throw too, which makes it so you never feel like you're wasting a reagent. And the class gets innate on-level elixirs and tools, so it can still buff someone or itself with a mutagen or get solid healing on the fly. Plus, having to constantly relearn every formula is just such a tax considering most of the new formulas are only ever slightly heightened versions of their previous one. Not even wizards have to relearn higher level versions of the same spell. Just a very disappointing experience. And as a mutagenist, what you say is very true. I spent several levels learning mutagens that the party said they wanted, only for them to refuse to use them ever due to the drawbacks.

[@fauxpoe]

The intelligence to attack is key because you can actually choose per combat which strategy to go with: quicksilver and ranged or bestial/fury and melee, and can mix and match that on the fly each battle or even within the same combat. So you actually get to play like someone who can use that jack-of-all-trades versatility effectively!

[@RebelThenKing]

Ha, glad to hear someone shared my pain, I guess 😄

[@afrosamurai3847]

Currently brewing up a mutagenist grappler, using the martial artist/wrestler archetypes doable with standard rules but much comfier with free archetype. The idea being he was a prodigy whose research into perfecting and inducing the next step of human evolution was scoffed at by his contemporaries and without funding for his research he was forced to use himself as a petri dish and to work to perfect his formula while also looking to incorporate martial arts and the perfection of his body as far as training and practice thus his adventuring.

[@RebelThenKing]

Yes! That sounds like a really fun build and fits into what I was saying about using some powerful unarmed attacks while slamming down some mutagens. Good luck!

[@MrSeriousDude13]

Whoo. I'm the 100th subscriber. Keep up the great work man

[@MrSeriousDude13]

Also. There are some great AI programs to use to keep eye contact with camera.. I really recommend. Can help with fluidity

[@QueenOfWidows]

Im currently about to start a game as a Vishkanya Toxicologist assassin. My whole goal is to focus on helping poison my teams weapons but also applying heavy debuffs to enemies to make them easier to hir

[@lappi2321]

I think toxicologist is the best overall party-buff tool. You can still get extra poison bombs, you can still make everything else, but you have martials in that party you are giving them free damage increases. The poisons don't always work, but when they do they hurt like nothing else.

[@Silverhawk100]

Playing as a mutagenicist right now. I've leaned into the generalist approach, dabbling in bombs, support potions for my party, some emergency healing potions, and when everything runs out, grow fangs and bite their shins (I'm a gnome). I've definitely felt the slump between levels 2-4. That 12 in STR and DEX meant I was just average at hitting either in melee or ranged. And there's no scaling modifications. A lesser alchemist fire will always hit the target for 1D6+1+1 persistent. Yeah, I am a little jealous of the fighter who can power attack and hit someone for 50 points of damage at level 4. And reading ahead, it kind of looks like Mutagenicists get another slump in power between 12-17. But I like having something for any situation. I like how I was ambushed alone once and rather than run, I just stood there and started chugging potions for two rounds straight. It feels like the alchemist is also the most action economical spellcaster there is. Where a low level wizard'll stand there casting magic missile (admittedly, 3d4+3 is more than 1D6+1+1Persistent, typically) an alchemist can move, chuck a bomb, and prepare an elixir in one turn. Just be ready to be reading and cross-referencing all of the rules pretty much all of the time. This is my first P2E character and I figured I'd do the thing of letting the table teach me as I went. Nope. Can't do that, have to read the rulebook. This is not a class for your first character in the system.

[@RebelThenKing]

So true about reading the rules all of the time.

[@centurosproductions8827]

The one person I've heard from who enjoys Mutagenist doesn't invest heavily into Int at level 1. One reagent worth of combat mutagens + the feature to re-apply the last one you drank is often all you need for one adventuring day, and any extra reagents can be used for utility items. Not going hard into Int then gives you stat points for martial stats.

[@jonathanbennison9220]

4:59 If there Reagents made Spell. Slot tier bombs/mutagen etc... But the Alchemist also had a Cantrip level Consistent, reliable, baseline. I imagine you'd hear fewer complaints. A PC with a heritage Cantrip, perhaps, acid splash. For synergy. Might have, fewer complaints However, scaling might become a mid to late game issue, as Profiiency/save DC wouldn't necessarily scale to keep up, without some form of investment. Back to the class. If it had some sort of scaling, baseline, reliable, NO EXHAUSTED attack. It wouldn't be soooo limited. As is, it's a 3.5 / PF 1 class, in PF2. When wizards now have Cantrips that function all day, the alchemist still runs out of bombs. And worse, now we have the Kineticist in PF2. So. When the alchemist runs out of bombs, the Kineticist is still going. Then the Cleric and wizard run out of spells, And the Kineticist, is, still, going.

[@chavesa5]

Excellent video and great insights!

[@jonathanneedleman4993]

As a dm I added a custom feat for the alchemist in the party, where if a monster saves vs. a poison, the take stage 1 of the poison for 1 rnd.

[@RebelThenKing]

That's not a bad idea. I've been theory crafting some toxicologist options and though it has a really great potential, I keep having to remind myself that you can fight creatures with good saves or who are immune to poison, and then you're just stuck doing nothing.

[@oneringtorulethemagicarp7199]

I think the current state of poison is fine.... if we gave toxicologists way's around the *many* immunities and nigh immunities that are sprinkled throughout the system. A toxicologist power fantasy is creating a poison that can kill *anything* it makes no sense that a level 20 toxicologist can harm exactly 0 more things with their poisons than a level 1 toxicologist particularly considering poisons that damage undead and evil fiends exists which mostly reduces it to constructs which isn't a big deal.

[@jonathanbennison9220]

9:58 Compare this to the value of scrolls for the clerics Spellslots , including Font. And at level 3, that's rank 2s. And at level 5,bthats rank 3s. Does Alchemist keep up? See, In PF1, having an alchemist menaat having bombs, and when the Cleric and Wizard were out of spells, you might still be Good To Go. Not sure.. That holds up here. Magus might be preferable? Excellent Cantrip selection (including swap outs per day) Splash magic into effective strikes. An early Kineticist. Maybe more versatile than some Kineticists. (hard to outshine the Thauma and the Kineticist right now) (agreed)

[@highwind6325]

I would heavily discourage people from picking an alchemist as their first p2e character, for many of the reasons you mentioned. I came in to 2e with years of 5e experience and am the kind of guy who enjoys making excel sheets and spending hours searching for items, alchemist seemed like a challenge and right up my alley. Having many tools at my disposal was a lot of fun, but after 2 years of playing that character I felt like the time I put in really wasn't worth it. I think someone new to ttRPGs would be even more overwhelmed with the out of session prep involved to be effective. Play an investigator with the alchemical sciences subclass instead, a far more manageable way to hit a RP fantasy and not tear your hair out. Poisons are a pretty tough to use effectively, you can only apply certain poisons to your weapons (injury poisons) and the others like contact, ingested and inhaled are difficult to use properly. If you're up against undead or other creatures heavily resistant to poison just don't even bother. I agree that I never bothered to use mutagens because of their pitfalls, but I do disagree that other alchemical items aren't great-- I did spent a shit ton of time going through every single item available to me and there have been dozens of moments where my knowledge has been super helpful. I think alchemists work great in specific campaigns with a ton of exploration and downtime to make use of their crafting and versatility, as well as a TON of gold to actually get formulas for new items. They need so much gold to stay relevant and like you said you have to put in so much work OOC to keep up with all of this stuff you're going to fall behind and feel shit about your performance. Make no mistake, I knew what I was getting into and wanted this challenge, I did the work and had plenty of memorable moments. But I think if I put that effort into literally any other class I would have had a far more enjoyable (and less annoying) experience with this wonderful system.

[@MostlyHarmless-42]

I love playing my alchemist. Bomber alchemist is the best class for exploiting weaknesses, then when that character hit level 2, I took a wizard dedication, so I always had some backup way of doing damage, and not by attach rolls. Also, alchemical bombs automatically get bonuses to hit as you move to higher level versions of that bomb, and with items like alchemist's goggles, you can do away with cover bonuses by the enemies you fight.

[@RebelThenKing]

Yes, when my GM graciously gifted me the Alchemist's Goggles the character got a lot more fun. It is a GREAT item for an alchemist! Really smart move going with a non-attack magic backup. Being able to do some damage without relying on attack rolls is a great way to build out a monster turn.

[@darklightuk2]

Okay we start with 8 formulae - 2 common from Research field (ie. Bomber) 2 common from Formula Book 4 common from Alchemical Crafting But the rules all say common formulae - so how do we get uncommon, rare, etc

[@danvgeg]

I played a chirurgen and hated every minute of combat. The only saving grace was that I was literally the mascot character that was afraid of combat anyway so it fit the theme. Seriously, picking between antidotes and antiplagues as my "cantrip" made me think the class was an out of season april fools joke.

[@jonathanbennison9220]

8:22 Xbow or shortbow strikes. Right. Or. Maybe pick up Firearm. And have like, gunsmith background. And invest in that backup ranged weapon, and contribute chip damage. Not like the Ranger. Not the gunslinger. Now. If you treat the class, as an archer, Xbow, firearms class... And use those bombs as your FOCUS replacement... With less of a limit per battle, than a focus pool... But potentially close to. As many uses as a focus pool... Ie. 8 hour adventure day? 4-8 battles? Divide your bombs across those. Fights? And rely on striking shortbow for most of your attacks for most of the day? Maybe pick up like Arcane Archer /Eldritch archer... And a couple elemental Cantrips, and maybe Needle Darts. And then be able to 'splash' some scaling magic, into a striking ranged weapon... And maybe you have something to supplement your Bomb supply...

[@aamirhussain26]

Really appreciate the homebrew idea

[@threadscore]

Very first ever 2e character and I rolled a chirugeon as the primary healer. It's been interesting so far.

[@NeverSeenMyself]

In our campaign that lasted for 2 years we had a Bomber alchemist and Battle Oracle. Battle Oracle would cast Vision of Weakness each fight and if we found any Alchemist would go ham on them. If not, he would support the team with his mutagens, persistent damage and elixirs of life.

[@jolson3045]

I love the Alchemist coupled with a crafting focus. In Kingmaker my GM uses the 8hrs work / 8hrs rest / 8hrs free. I've taken the Inventor Archetype and am able to use the 8hrs free towards daily progress for new formulas. King of Versatility. My first real character. Love it. Just not sure how to balance daily reagents vs saving some for quick alchemy.

[@MartijnVos]

I only played a single intro session of PF2 so far, and I decided to give an alchemist a try. I've always liked the idea of alchemists, and was always bummed that they were not supported at all by any RPG. I've tried home brewing (appropriately) an alchemist class/career in some RPGs by modding a wizard, but that was never satisfying. PF1 had an alchemist, and it was okay, but still too wizardy. So when PF2 introduced a completely non-magical alchemist that revolved around alchemical items, including massively expanding the alchemical items list, I was sold. I had to try it. So how did it go? I think it went pretty well. I only went unconscious twice, and was carried out of the dungeon by my team mates. So I guess they carried my weight, which is what team mates are for. The alchemist is the mastermind, the others are the test subjects, er, muscle, I mean.

[@mistaree8394]

The biggest problem is many players don't understand the alchemist or how he benefits the structure of the rules. My first PF2e character (which I love) was alchemist when only the core book was out and it had some challenges (lack of formulae hurt) but one of the biggest was that I thought I was playing PF1e or D&D5e. They are VERY different in core rule structure and once you get that and get creative they can be amazing.

[@jonathanbennison9220]

10:08 No... If a rank 1 scroll. Costs 4 gold. And the Cleric has 4 font now. Plus their Spellslots. Its pretty close. And they have Cantrips to fall. Back on. Not sure that argument alone stacks up quite enough. Cleric Font might be the one feature that keeps up in raw value. Except... An Herbalist dedication, gets reagents for free elixirs every day, also... And, those have been adding up... So. Maybe play a class that's half decent, and bring in the Herbalist for free elixirs. Sad Face 4 Alchemist / Premaster?

[@jonathanbennison9220]

8:04 In a game filled with 'never run out of stuff to do' for the Cleric and wizard, And where the fighter/ranger/rogue/monk/thauma/Barbarian... Just keep going. (Remeber they can have their own skill medicine now and not even rely upon a Healer persay... Not if armour keeps them alive long enough to win a fight and patch up. Nothing replaces a committed cleric/druid/combat Healer... But still its possible to survive without one. In some campaigns more than others. Agreed. But you have the alchemist playing PF1/3.5... Running out of their basic move, and having nothing left. Its not even like, a Focus class is it? Ie the Psychic. Gets better than average Cantrips, and can Amp them with focus points. Which recharge. Alchemist just isn't really written for this edition. Kineticist? In keeping with its tradition. (3.5 warlock) (PF1 rewrite) Is, the King / Queen, of never stop doing what they do. The Uber magic fighter/rogue. If you will.

[@richardtasden4417]

Very nice Violent Femmes reference.

[@RebelThenKing]

Hey, glad somebody got it!

[@rh3280]

My current and second ever character is a toxicologist alchemist with light specs in healing and i actually think its super fun

[@FormerRuling]

My first taste of pf2e was Alchemist as well - for a one shot to test the system for our group lol.

[@johngleeman8347]

I thought they were a decent class in PF1. A shame they seem to be both poor to middling in effectiveness while also especially complex to learn in PF2. That's a bad design. A complex character-kit should reward a player with a slight edge in power to justify the higher learning-curve.

[@RebelThenKing]

I think you summed it up better than I did. They're really complex and even when you take a ton of time to learn the system and try to get the best out of your character, you're half as effective as other characters who just use a few simple moves.

[@aaronkahler1867]

I am playing as a bomber Alchemist in my first game. I am having so much fun with him, the breadth of options I have with my alchemical items is amazing and useful in so many ways. I think often players forget about downtime activities and crafting Alchemical items during your down time come in handy, Darkvision Elixir, Cheatah Elixir, Antidote, Vaccines, Smoke sticks , and higher level Elixir's of Life etc all fall into this category. Thanks for this video though but I wish more would give this Class some love.

[@RebelThenKing]

I really do like the feel of the class, I just kept feeling disappointed in mechanics. That being said, I'd actually like to try playing the alchemist again in a different campaign because it really can be powerful.

[@MacedonZero]

I actually really liked running alchemists in first edition as a sort of ultimate support class (if you're in a campaign that regularly has lots of downtime). There are a lot of things you can give fellow players to enhance their strategic options in and out of battle I haven't had the opportunity to try it in 2nd edition yet (still trying to drag my friends away from D&D 5e to try something new), but I think I'd still really enjoy being the party crafter, and choose a subclass based on the funnest rp option for that particular campaign

[@CMBlessing81]

Right now, it feels like the alchemist is a good archetype and that's pretty much it. Thankfully the Witch is very archetype friendly.

[@Synamint87]

Alchemist was my favorite class in PF1E and want to play as one in PF2E the crafting synergies are nice and require though and prep/downtime to make a nice stockpile.

[@Apheleion]

Late to this but alchemist can be very strong but you need a really good understanding of the game mechanics, I've made alchemist brawlers with the mutagenist multiclassed with monk and Bastion archetypes. Pick orc then ancestry feats that keep you alive, in bastion you get the reaction reactive shield for some nice blocks and go with nimble shield so you can use any shield as a buckler and have a hand free to drink mutagens and grapple enemies. In monk you get flurry of blows and stunning fist to amp you damage up and make enemies waste actions. Mutagens i use are situational for damage i would go beastial mutagen and use the alchemist feat Feral Mutagen to make it stronger, then if I'm grappling a lot or if a teammate grapples a lot use the choker arm mutagen If you want to run toxocologist go for a kobold (i just like kobold because of the snares any stealth or dex ancestry works) grab kobold weapon familiarity to improve crossbow proficiency, using hand crossbow and a buckler for some defense buckler lets you raise shield while having a hand free to apply poisons. Increase you dexterity and pump up stealth and hide, you want to get those flat footed statuses on enemies to get those lower fort saves on enemies with Pinpoint Poisoner and you can then multiclass into Archer dedication grab crossbow terror and running reload. Don't forget you can also create healing potions for you and your teammates mutagens and bombs are still fair play with the alchemist. Its about using all your tools but specializing a little in how you want to play the alchemist.

[@mileslugo6430]

Would an increased range of like a sling/sling staff make the alchemist more fun?

[@RebelThenKing]

There is an Alchemical Crossbow that you can pick up, though it is an uncommon weapon that costs 25gp. It allows you to use a bomb to power 3 shots of the crossbow, giving each an additional d6 damage. It definitely helps stretch your inventory. In my party the cleric actually used this and I'd supply the cleric with a few bombs each day.

[@mileslugo6430]

@@RebelThenKing that sounds really cool. It just seemed like easy support for Slingers and also Alchemists. Cheaper too than 25 GP

[@coybold5303]

Alchemist certainly isn't on the forefront of classes I'd like to play. But they really shine as a dedication. They add a nice little spice to most martial classes.

[@RebelThenKing]

Good point. It's nice that Inventors and Investigators (maybe others?) can pick up feats/subclass options that dip into alchemy too.

[@elizj]

Okay, I could really use some poison daggers though

[@saprone8885]

My friend is a fan of the alchemist, because he says applying weaknesses is a big deal in pf2. I am not convinced, because even while triggering weaknesses the alchemist still does less damage then my fighter. The mutagens were much worse to use then simply attacking in the one-shot we played. So you had the same experience as me, that most people didn't take the consumables. I will probably never play an alchemist and believe they are indeed underperforming, even with their versatility.

[@RebelThenKing]

Totally agreed on all points. A frost vial activating a Weakness 3 is d6+1+3, that's a max of 10 points of damage. If it's an even stronger weakness like 5 that's still just a max of 12. Considering that a lot of martials will have a d12 weapon, the best your alchemist can do only matches the weapon die of those martials. Once the martial STR for damage and other damage abilities kick in, that alchemist is left way far behind.

[@yeetnoyg2571]

Mutagenist Alchemist with the skeleton ancestry, well armed combined with the Choker-armed mutagen,and a reach weapon=very funny

[@RebelThenKing]

Ok, this would be HILARIOUS.

[@tygereyes]

Personally alchemists in their purr form are a non-adventuring class (merchant class) in many cases and find their best uses as a secondary class picked up as a dedication. IMHO - Obviously, there are exceptions. In my campaign, I do not allow them as primary classes (NPC Merchant Class Only) though another class can take it as dedication. On part, I do not run a campaign with gun powder or steam combustion which is a major limitation. I do supplement with more healing. So PCs can purchase alchemical products at a shop and also… Mage, Rogue, and Ranger are easy classes benefit from dedication but also witches and priests.

[@Fogelhut]

At the very least in the errata they've boosted the two items from Advanced Alchemy to 3 for two Signature Items up to Level 5, when you can make 3 for anything in your Research Field. Then at Level 7 you can Quick Alchemy 1st level items for no Reagent cost? Yeesh. Gets you to target weaknesses for no cost, I guess.

[@derekbowen5820]

The thing with those no cost Reagents, at least for a Bomber alchemist, is that the damage doesn't really matter, and if you're a Bomber you also have a class feature that makes the DC on any bombs scale with your class DC, so those level 1 items can be pretty strong. Any bomber who has infinite level 1 Skunk Bombs can still potentially inflict sickened on a 5ft burst of enemies, which is far more important than whatever damage the bomb does. You're also most likely benefitting from class feats that make your splash damage equal to your INT and your persistent damage (even if the bomb had none) equal to at least your INT, so you're getting most of what you wanted out of that level 3 version.

[@jameslightfoot1872]

I imagine a supersoaker filled with Greek fire.

[@PeterDivine]

Yeah, Pathfinder & D&D really don't have the resource, crafting, and potion effect tables to really make Alchemists shine like they theoretically could, and it's just as well because doing that sort of legwork for one class would be like re-making an entire system of magic- or several- for that one class. I don't want my alchemists to be glorified bombers or making potions that do all the same exact effects as spells, I want my potions to be an elaborate investigation into molding body chemistry like play-dough. I want drugs conveying great power at terrible price, radical and unpredictable spell effects from experimental toxins and remedies, body parts transforming, buffing, and de-buffing without expectation, and atop it all, an intricate and incremental building of knowledge, understanding what causes bring about what effects. No one is going to give alchemy that kind of love, so all you get is variations on bombs and straight buffing/healing potions.

[@malkyn9998]

I just make alchemist attack proficiencies scale like the martials they are and that tends to do a lot to make them feel better. I also adjust caster spell attack rolls independent of DC, so I might simply be a madman.

[@connormcconnell7805]

They're probably the "least powerful" at doing one specific thing but they can keep up by being able to do anything

[@Ranziel1]

I watched two alchemists in play as a GM. My advice is to not play one. I wouldn't even count one as a PC when balancing encounters, it's that bad.

[@richards2924]

I've played this class from level 1 to level 17, and I definitely would not recommend it. I doesn't feel particularly powerful- you are constantly starved of resources at low levels and you struggle to hit anything at high levels. You have a lot of tools, but you are never the best one at using them. I've frequently had allies turn down mutagens because they didn't like the drawback, and they also constantly forget to use elixirs they are given. So much of the class depends on how other people play that it has ended up not feeling very fun.

[@boris_bulletdodger9109]

Positive comment

[@themalcontent100]

I saw the alchemist but I was unsure about it.

[@Просто_Иван]

alchemist is the only class that doesn't get master

[@maryclarence6429]

Great video. I haven't played an alchemist but have run some alchemist NPCs and they definitely take more thought to make them work. Alchemist's have got better with rules bloat, like thrower's bandolier would synergize with the toxicologist dagger thrower. But I think the alchemist could use some targeted support. They really need something like a cantrip that they can't deplete.

[@motorsportbimmer]

Café do Brasil

[@YmirLonginus]

shuh-roo-gen

[@elmokaartinen3854]

It is absolutely not the worst class. On levels 1-2, it definetly is though. On later levels, I could go as far as to say it is the single strongest class. The thing with alchemists is that on top of having extremely strong feats (especially on bombers), they keep getting stronger and stronger consumables all the time, while their downsides never scale up and they gain more infused reagents on every level up + modifier increase. This doesn't really apply to anything else since every reagent is equal with each other, while casters only have a few of their best slots available at a time. For a showcase, on level 17 an alchemist can give everyone in the party a sanguine mutagen. This boosts everyones Reflex + Fortitude saves by a +4, and turn every success on saves into poisons or diseases into crit success for an entire hour. The value of the effective is essentially same as boosting 2/3 of everyone saves by two proficiency ranks + in practice an almost immunity to poisons and diseases (considering the ease of getting a success with the bonus) at a downside of taking 1d6 persistent bleed if you take slashing or piercing damage which is absolutely inconsequental on that level. And it took (assuming not a mutagenist in a party of 4) was 2 infused reagents out of your 23. Even if I am not sold on the mutagenists, mutagens are a massive part of their power budget. The effects themselves are always item bonuses, which means it will stack with whatever else buffs the party is giving to each other, and with some knowledge on the combats and wise usage the downsides can be avoided entirely in most cases. If you know (or have any kind of clue) what kind of creature a certain monster is, energy mutagen can just negate any threats in the encounter while giving damage bonuses. Silvertongue Mutagen on a bard means he has harder time to recall knowledge which is a really minor downside for getting a massive buff to all rolls made to use lingering composition, bot mot, demoralize or any of the other performance related bard feats. In the party I played, my Drakeheart mutagen gave our monk a +4 bonus to AC, bonus to perception and an ability to move 80 ft in a turn. For sake of comparison, imagine a bard at level 4 using inspire defense and now do it 3 more times. At the downside of penalty to will / reflex saves, which are less commonly a problem on lower level combats where you care about AC (mostly inflicted by casters). A warblood mutagen on barbarian means he gets a bigger chance to hit, cannot be disarmed at the downside of not having an easy time of making actions that require concentration, which is already blocked by rage. It isn't weak even on mid levels either. A level 7 bomber has infinite supply of skunk bombs due to perpetual infusions. Every single attack they dish one of them will sicken the target even if they succeed on a save, with potential to slow on a failure unless they manage to retch successfully. And the fun bit, they can force every single other creature close it to make the same save with higher chance of success (but again, success already sickens). Additionally it will deal 1d4 +4 poison damage (the 4 happening even on a miss)+, deal 1 persistent damage, force the target to make a save against becoming flat -footed (debilitating bombs). By level 11, they can instead of flat footing deal 9 persistent damage to everyone in a large area around the target even on a miss. Compared to slow spell (lvl 3). On a success, lasts only one round. On a failure, 1 minute. Never deals any damage. Does not sicken on either failure or success. Affects only one target. And unlike skunk bomb, it costs a very limited resource. And its not a bad spell, but the comparison is brutal. Other bonuses on the class, if a monster has a weakness chances are the alchemist can trigger it. Forumals are cheap, and on mid game they can afford to keep reagents for quick alchemy, and they have access to most common vulnerability damage types in the game (including good and evil damage with alignment ampoule). Went a bit ranty, so sorry for that. It disheartens to see a party ignore mutagens due to their downsides which can be almost entirely avoidable. Sometimes I do math in foundry after a session and while I rarely outdamage a barbarian or monk (even though, that has happened too), when I calculate in damage from every crit that happened or a hit that was almost a miss either due to combinations of my buffs and debuffs the final number usually skyrockets past everyone in the party, all the while I am doing healing, protecting via AC boosts & debuffs.

[@davidbowles7281]

No one wants to drink the potions in my experience. No one wants to wait for level 5 to get the auto injector. As far as quicksilver mutagen goes, you never know when the fort penalty will come up. No one wants a fort save penalty. It's also the actions needed to drink the potions.

[@aralornwolf3140]

The problem with the Alchemist is... it's too situational and requires a lot of downtime to get the most out of. I was thinking about Mutagenists. To make them better, I think a level 5 class feature could be the removal of the negatives from mutagens crafted normally by the Mutagenist... so that they can share the mutagens and the party is happy... they still have the option to craft the "oh, crud... I need this now" option, but with the flaws. In Pathfinder 2e Remaster, they will be working on making the Alchemist better (as they have been doing in nearly every errata)... so hopefully, when players play the Remaster Alchemist, they have a much better time!

[@evrypixelcounts]

Just popped in to say no, it's the witch.

[@RebelThenKing]

😂

[@sedevri864]

Alchemist/Thaumaturge combo is brutal

[@Gubbykahn]

The only Issue i See in Alchemist is that Players want every Class to have exactly the Same Progression. People Just think about Classes Combat wise but forget the Game isnt Just about Battle. OK the Alchemist seems to Lack some Power easily to Access for everyone but it has its own charme. Im Not bothered by this Class, im more bothered about how Players want easier Access to every Class without thinking too hard to Play a TTRPG seriously Combat isnt anyones Job in Pathfinder 2e for Alchemists its more a supportive Role as DpS Helper,Heal Helper,Debuff/Buff Helper. The Alchemist is not a big Combatant...and never was meant to be a pure Fighting class xD So you had an AoE great Moment without a Recall Knowledge Action so you know the Weakness they ahd before attacking? Fail GM xD

[@davidbowles7281]

Losing touch AC just killed this class in combat.

[@peebothulhu8768]

Oooof. Alchemist are so 'Good' that the new rules pretty much put them them out of the game as a playable class. P2E is aging well.