Are Bivalves Vegan? Specifically Oysters and Mussels?

Can vegans eat oysters and mussels and still be vegan? Many vegans say no because bivalves are animals. Others like ostrovegan Diana Fleischman say sure because they don't have the ability to feel pain. Here are my thoughts.
References
sentientist.org/2013/05/20/the...
sentientist.org/2013/06/15/oys...
www.huffingtonpost.com/marc-be...
www.slate.com/articles/life/fo...
letthemeatmeat.com/post/506197...
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[@polaropposite1614]

This is one of the biggest problems with club vegan: its members often care more about adhering to a strict set of rules than taking pragmatic measures to help animals. I watched Bite Size Vegan's video on this issue and Gary Yourofsky squashed the question immediately with "it's animal protein. It's not vegan". He didn't even attempt to address the finer details. Veganism isn't about treating your body like a temple. It's about treating animals with compassion and respect. (The animals that actually warrant compassion and respect, I mean. There's no reason to believe bivalves belong in this group, and either way vegans should be open to a critical discussion about the matter).

[@polaropposite1614]

allencrider Not sure I'm following. Are you saying we should extend moral consideration to something solely because it is classified as an animal?

[@allencrider]

Polar Opposite You yourself wrote, "Veganism isn't about treating your body like a temple. It's about treating animals with compassion and respect."

[@polaropposite1614]

allencrider Did you not read the sentence immediately after that?

[@phillipgalea6054]

Polar Opposite plants are proven to feel pain oysters are not and are a great b12 supply, eat em. www.smithsonianchannel.com/videos/do-plants-respond-to-pain/12151 www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2677858/Bad-news-vegetarians-Plants-hear-eaten.html

[@julijapav]

allencrider Flees, lice, roundworms, ticks and others are also animals. Surprise surprise! And they probably feel more pain than bivalves. And they need a home too.

[@quarteracreadventures855]

THIS!!! I don't identify as vegan because I eat bivalves and the occaisional egg from my pet rescue hens. ( I mosly give them to my egg-eating friends to keep them from buying factory eggs) I actually believe that eating farmed bivalves is more ethical than eating many mechanically harvested vegan crops such as potatoes, soy and wheat because (unlike farming bivalves) these crops kill many rodents and birds in the harvesting and tilling process. (We actually KNOW that mammals and birds feel pain) Also, bivalve farming actually CLEANS the ocean by filtering nitrogen from the water (Excess nitrogen from fertilizer causes 'dead zones' in the oceans) Also, the farming of bivalves requires no fertilizers or pesticides, unlike other vegan crops, and actually cleans up after the (vegan) crops that DO use them. It is so nice to find someone who shares my views on this subject- I am often attacked by vegans.

[@theanemicproblematicvegan7998]

interesting point :)

[@inkrahek3802]

I don't really get why pain is the only factor though. People who are brain dead or severely mentally impaired could be euthanized without feeling pain, but a lot of people think that's wrong.

[@quarteracreadventures855]

Musa Preza Then you shouldn't even be eating PLANTS then... There's a reason they call a brain-dead person a 'vegetable'.

[@theanemicproblematicvegan7998]

***** well, I think musa's point is that veganism isn't about just not causing pain. even if, say, pigs didn't feel, consuming it would be worse to the environment than ating for a well planned, plant based diet. as for the bivalves, I'm not against their consumption, as their farming doesn't seem to cause harm to the environment (no by-catching and filters the water) more so than the fact that they're probably not feeling pain and aren't conscious as wwe mean it.

[@inkrahek3802]

***** We have to eat something :p Besides plants are "live" not alive. It's like the difference between sperm and a fetus.

[@Necrohermit]

spongebob has no soul

[@lpsglamourgirl2988]

This is about bivalves, not bisexuals, such as Mr.Bob with his fondness of both Sandy and Patrick simultaneously.

[@stasiugaska2838]

@@lpsglamourgirl2988 I believe it also applies to bisexuals

[@HappyChappyable]

Hey, if the one thing that is keeping everyone to go vegan is oysters... Then I'm all for it.

[@iComplexity_]

THIS!!!

[@Ngan.marianguyen]

Right?? I lovee oysters so much😩😩 I was gonna give myself the exception of oysters and soft shell crab!

[@user-wv8ju3dw8s]

@@Ngan.marianguyen Before you do that, try watching a video called "No, Vegans Do NOT Eat Oysters! Yes, All Bivalves ARE Sentient! (Part 2.)"

[@nancyhey1012]

I don’t think debates about the sentience of oysters is really the make or break factor in whether people decide to stop eating land animals, though.

[@CalebSteele]

Yep, I eat oysters and mussels. No, I don't eat other meat. Not necessarily a slippery slope. Osto-vegetarianism.

[@cghul7315]

Caleb Steele Nasty

[@VaporTrap]

same

[@michellemcnamee2611]

Seagan, with no dairy or eggs

[@naomijenkins7848]

@@cghul7315 im so doing this, im so happy i can eat them as a vegetarian

[@KJ-iv3bg]

Man, I am pretty sure you mean Ostro, Osto sounds like something related to bones for some reason.

[@reasonablecicada]

I remember seeing an article a while back which denounced vegans who ate nutritional yeast as not being "real" vegans because the yeast was, at one point, considered to be a single-cell animal (it's not, it's a fungus now). It just made me wonder if there is some kind of super-hippie competition on who can be the most restrictive vegans in existence, like The Simpsons "I'm a level 5 vegan, I won't eat anything that casts shadow"

[@MsSilentH]

I mean, there's definitely nothing wrong with changing opinions or actions based on new information, that being said, a lot of vegans are notorious for constantly changing what they eat, say or do. Not saying it's always a bad thing, but there's so many people not doing their own research and just following what others do, or what's "hot" at the moment.

[@reasonablecicada]

Ashley Casey I watched that a long time ago, and my stomach hurt after seeing her eat the peels. I bet she's a level 6 vegan, lol

[@valken666]

Now I finally understand, vegans are playing a game!

[@alexc2265]

Orthorexics, people at risk for eating disorders, and hyper-moralists make it that way

[@davesworld7961]

That's like saying the live cultures in sauerkraut are animals.

[@valaisblacknosesheep]

I am not eating them. If people want to eat oysters and mussels and stop eating meat, dairy, eggs, fish in exchange I am all for it. It is a step in the right direction. Lets get everyone that far first before we worry about oysters and mussels and calling people not vegan just because they eat those two. Look at the big picture.

[@meganravizza5535]

Peach Mango Moon omg thank you for this thoughtful comment! ✌️️💚

[@naomijenkins7848]

Im so happy finding this out, its hard to dodge fish in spain ( i go there to see my spanish fam) and i can now eat them guiltlessly

[@jamesvandao-vergona3257]

Spill salt on a live oyster or mussel it doesn’t like it...pain or not it doesn’t want to die...

[@averageclamenjoyer1267]

James Van Dao-Vergona and plants have evolved to have hard outer layers to not get eaten, and yet you peel it away to eat the fruit inside

[@zoeyredmond5501]

Until science proves that plants feel pain and even panic and react when near by plants are being destroyed, then what? What happens to your worldview then?

[@CNAsweetpeas47]

personally i'm open to eating oysters as a vegan! it helps me to stay vegan, and I certainly think it's better than going back to eating animal products

[@naturallyemi]

***** You're vegan and you eat oysters? Are you open about this to other vegans? If so what are their reactions?

[@naturallyemi]

***** How does it help you stay vegan

[@CNAsweetpeas47]

***** I haven't been eating oysters lately, but I think it's perfectly fine considering they don't feel any pain. it helps(helped?) me stay vegan because whenever I was really tempted to eat salmon or something fishy I could eat oysters. but like I said, that was while I was transitioning. these days I don't buy oysters either... but that doesn't mean I'm against it. also, I don't know any vegans so I'm not exactly "open" about it. I would be, if I knew any haha

[@sterbprepper4798]

I'm a new vegan wannabe and I'm glad to have ready your comment. Did eating mussels help at the beginning of your vegan? Are you still vegan?

[@theshow4202]

@CNA sweetpeas I agree with you totally Great source of conplete protein , omegas 3,6,9 and b12 ate some the other day one year vegan and my brain felt awakened like next level.. plus they're very sustainable and filter out water along the oceans as they grow

[@analisamarieh4119]

Personally i'd have no interest in eating them myself -- but hey, if that's what it'll take to get some people to go vegan and dramatically reduce all the detriments that come with factory farming/animal consumption, then so be it! Im all for it as long as it does not cause pain and stress to the animal and to the environment.

[@starrix4712]

Don’t fool yourself, I’m never going vegan. I’m an empathic eater for lack of a better word

[@Kachok80]

That is why I subscribe to her, informative subject and logical perspective rather then just wild vegan propaganda like everyone else does. Good discussion.

[@theanemicproblematicvegan7998]

true. I'd like her to link to the studies that she summons, instead of just citing them without giving us the articles she based her points on or proove them, not that she needs to do that. just think it would feel more complete and more "sciency" and more concordant to her personality, as she shows herself to be a sceptic.

[@lexielove307]

+équi-libre check the description box

[@huguesdemol8308]

Enigma Cipher Have no idea where you live, but in my country, as far as I can remember people are forced to listen day and night the dead flesh, eggs and dairy industries crippled, absurd outdated propaganda... TV, KZbin commercials, movies, children's songs, leaflets, cooking shows, restaurants... Just about telling us that eating animal products is good, natural, necessary and healthy for human consumption when it’s not. If anything is self- destructive and deadly! There’s a reason why « everyone else does goes wild » about the «wild vegan propaganda ».

[@kash1na]

"wild vegan propaganda like everyone else does"... you don't know everyone else does that? So didn't you just do the exact same thing by lumping a million people you don't know into an ignorant observation?

[@lukeb1136]

@@theanemicproblematicvegan7998 at least she let you know the alternative theory exists. Then you can google it.

[@lofu32]

Oysters are way more similar to plants in the fact that they don't really feel pain. Both like plants, they do know they are about to be eaten.

[@user-wv8ju3dw8s]

Pain is irrelevant. Some human beings can't feel pain, and so using that as a criterion for killing or not killing doesn't work. The relevant point is that oysters, unlike plants, have cerebral neurons, and cerebral neurons have been proven to sustain conscious awareness.

[@ohlawd3699]

Yep. 😊👍

[@Blackpill149]

​@@user-wv8ju3dw8syou are bringing logical falacy. Oysters have no brain to feel anything. Its not santient just like carnivorous plants. And Killing people who can't experience pain is more ethical than killing someone who can feel pain but I am not saying killing someone just because they can't feel pain is ok. A human who doesn't feel pain can still want to enjoy life and not want to die because of this urge to live. An oyster have no consciousness it's like mushrooms or trees

[@roniakiil8584]

I turned ostro vegan and many vegans would too if they just tried doing some research instead of basing their opinions on assumptions instead of facts.

[@coldwind1791]

Ronia Kiil So if we could breed cows that do not feel pain, would I be a vegan if I eat them?

[@ash5779]

COld Wind no, i personally wouldn’t. a cow is different to a shell thingy. i’d eat lab grown meat tho.

[@ash5779]

Wenceslao Futanaki lmao

[@scaryguppy1071]

@@coldwind1791 vegan, no not by the strict definition. Ethical? Yes, if it were sustainable and the cows also didn’t have a brain.

[@chriswatson3464]

Some people just need to know oysstra-vegans exist!

[@TheDENIMANCI]

"Oysters are the gateway drug!" Lol

[@nazarelton]

Lol ^^. U deserve to know my ig follow Nazarradovets

[@danstora]

In Italy we call Bivalves “Frutti di Mare” (fruit of the sea)

[@krazykat64]

I'm on the fence as to whether I agree or disagree, but I can absolutely see this as a discussion worth having.

[@lucas_rays]

ofc bivalves are not vegan, but I think its ethical to eat them... im not interested in eating them tho

[@TrueHookahKing]

+Muscle Up Lets cross off emotions and pain, but what about the health issues with eating meat? Just asking a question, not trying to attack you.

[@jasonsimpson1397]

That's only in counting what an omnivore CAN eat vs. what a vegan can eat. When we look at what the two groups DO eat, you typically find the omnivores to be the ones lacking, because most vegans make up for their lacking nutrients in other ways.

[@Amateur_Pianist_472]

+TrueHookahKing health problems come from too much meat not any at all. The odd mussel is healthy.

[@Amateur_Pianist_472]

+aattitude Ground flax seeds and sunshine. I found that the reason it was harder was because school never taught the stuff. They taught about meat and society teaches about meat but nothing else. I do eat a higher volume than before but meat is much more dense than legumes, grains and rice. They can't be equated as the same in terms of volume. There's a big difference with what can be eaten and was is eaten. Meat eaters eat SAD in general and vegans tend to focus on carbs like that's all you gotta worry about.

[@jasonsimpson1397]

Amy Lorenzo It sounds like you only focus on KZbin vegans. The HCLF ones. Anyone with a brain knows you need all three macronutrients, but the argument is over how much of each. Also, your claim of meat being more dense than legumes is wrong. Peanuts are a legume and 4 oz. of peanuts has more caloric density than 8 oz of fatty steak.

[@JJaguar333]

Oysters are loaded with pretty much every nutrient that’s hard to get on a vegan diet. Same with mussels. Plus they clean the ocean and have a low level of heavy metals.

[@charlesolarte7104]

This. If life on Earth lottery aligned with the chances of life to exist in this universe, then bivalves aligned in the same way the vegan diet nutrition does with bivalves. What nutrients vegans lack, bivalves PERFECTLY compensates. Its as if ostroveganism is the epitome of environmental, ethical, and nutritional diet; even moreso than the often hailed Mediterrenian diet

[@MoonlitBrenya]

I am, yet again, relieved beyond words by your channel. many times here recently (month or so), I have considered even labeling myself as vegan, vegetarian, whatever, because it only opens one up to criticism, and I just don't need that crap. I don't eat meat, I hardly touch dairy (better every day) and I am trying to politely convert folks for whatever reason will appeal to them the best. But it seems like people are always waiting to judge you for every bite, every purchase you make. You make valid and sound points and bring a sense of reason to an otherwise strict to the point of all or nothing way of life. Thank you again, Swayze, for another great video and topic. Point I should make, I will never eat an oyster. I see oyster and I think liver, and I never cared for that either. But I will not judge another if they chose to do so. Not my place anyway. Hope you're having a great day.

[@jasonsimpson1397]

I am a vegan at this point in time, but I would strongly consider eating mussels and oysters again, because I use to enjoy them. My eyes have been slightly opened to the possibility of a hierarchy of all forms of life, where some plants might be intelligent and should not be eaten and some should, yet some animals(bi-valves in this case) might feel no pain and are alright to eat, but cows are emotional animals and not alright to eat.

[@itsniquenique45]

what plants do you view as intelligent?

[@catmoondevil]

What plants are scientifically proven to be scentient and thinking beings?

[@inkrahek3802]

Plants aren't shown to feel pain.

[@jasonsimpson1397]

I would ask the same of animals. Which ones are shown to be sentient? What do you consider pain? What do you consider intelligence? Do you simply discount the possibility, because you separate flora and fauna as completely different? If that is indeed your view, then your mind is equally as closed as carnists, because they have the same views, but separate humans from everything else.

[@catmoondevil]

1. The ones with a Central Nervous System 2. Pain is an unpleasant sensory and emotional experience associated with actual or potential tissue damage, or described in terms of such damage. (According to the International Association for the Study of Pain) 3. Intelligence is more complicated term as we don't know how to describe it for sure for humans. But the sure is it involves the ability to respond adaptatively to solve problems in real life and thrive. 4. No, I discard it as science show plant nor bivalve feel pain on are intelligent. Wanting to avoid the pain of the ones that actually feel pain VS. wanting to protect all and every life form... is what makes veganism an ethical choice and idelogy, instead of a dogma and a religion.

[@radphilospher]

I'm an ex vegan precisely because I adopted oysters, clams, and mussels into my diet. It's unfortunate that many vegans are closed to this, because they don't feel pain, are often ethically farmed, and they have, like, ALL the nutrients often lacking in the vegan diet. They are chalked full of vitamin b12 (like an insane amount), as well as iron (not to mention Omegas, and much, much better than fish oil supplements). I believe that a plant-based vegan diet + bivalves is the most sustainable AND healthiest diet on the planet, and I wish more vegans weren't so damned devout about the definition.

[@ross3015]

Suddenly after over three years of being a strict vegan I'm totally down for eating some mussels.

[@Theveganpeach]

Okay, I don't think pain should be the ONLY reason. Bivalves regardless of pain sensation still want to live. UGH I don't even like this discussion, it's fucked up. You aren't vegan if you eat animals and bivalves are animals, period.

[@someonemexican9705]

The Vegan Peach Plants also want to live. Thorns, sap, and poison are all defense mechanisms. ps im vegan

[@Theveganpeach]

The majority of plants we eat doesn't kill the plant itself aka fruit, we take the blossoms from the tree, the tree itself is still alive. Anything else is basically going to rot if we don't harvest it, like potatoes for example. The plant argument is pointless and so fucking flawed. The fact that bivalves are animals is the only evidence I need to why we shouldn't use them. It's animal protein therefore not vegan.

[@davidwestrup669]

The Vegan Peach Umm no, ha ha, oh goodness. Potatoes won't just rot, they'll grow new potatoes. That is why the plant produces tubers, it stores the energy required to produce a new plant the following spring. My main concern is that there is no sustainable way to eat oysters unless you yourself harvest them and insure there is no by-catch. This would likely mean fresh water oysters or muscles which taste like shit. So I dislike this video for letting those who likes these foods (as I did.) use this as an excuse to disregard the ecological consequences as well as the unintentional deaths associated with it. Whilst there is unintentional deaths with the harvesting of crops, we have to eat something and I'm much more comfortable having the unintentional deaths be that of insect species that have millions of members than the many endangered species in our oceans that we're destroying in countless ways. To the other point you made that most plant food comes from tree's, are you sure? I'm not saying you're wrong, I don't know. I'm just asking if you have a source for such a definitive claim.

[@polaropposite1614]

Are you saying that mussels and oysters are conscious and have interests?

[@alexandrat9082]

David Westrup I'm SHOCKED how few people in the comment section mentioned the sustainability aspect of eating those creatures... Well said David!

[@acmulhern]

With the bees, even if they don't feel physical pain, I can assure you that they feel emotional pain, which I believe is reason enough to give them the respect that they deserve. As a bee keeper I can see the emotional intelligence that bees have and they do get annoyed when someone steals their honey or treats them badly. You can tell how a beekeeper treats his bees just by opening a hive. If the beekeeper is nice, the bees are super relaxed about someone opening the hive, but if the beekeeper is disrespectful his bees will be quite aggressive.

[@lordmonty9421]

Wrong - bees do not have emotions.

[@Daniel-jo2mc]

they don't have the centre of the brain that feels emotions, sorry

[@valken666]

James Ash and Daniel Miller - You guys get some beehives for a few years.

[@freshdumbledore8177]

Mulan 121 You‘re right. My grandpa’s bees were super chill and used to hang out with us children. They were super nice. But I saw other beekeepers with their bees and their bees were super stressed, even aggressive towards humans.

[@maybeiam3367]

Mulan 121 they don’t feel emotional pain. You’re a moron if you think so. Insects have no reason to even have evolved to have any emotion and they’re brains are too simple and small to have emotion.

[@ceebee1461]

Loved this video! I've been vegan for a year now and saw a persons comment on your ex vegan diet about bivalves that sparked my interest. I love eating mussels but stopped when I become vegan as I didn't I really think about the fact that they don't have brains. I realize now I agree with their consumption so long as they are sustainability resourced. Thanks for this video!

[@ceebee1461]

***** Of course. 1984 baby! One of my favourite books.

[@nachoijp]

these things is why I don't like "rule based" ethics, they tend to spiral down useless discussions about grey areas and can't really provide a sensible system to guide conduct beyond their mandates. It's like with religions, they end up being reduced to absurdity (not saying veganism is a religion though, just that it shares the ethic basic meta-structure)

[@redddbaron]

+nachoijp You might not be stating Veganism is a religion, but never the less it actually is a religion, and for exactly the reasons you stated. Not all religions are theist.

[@user-rr6uy7re9o]

+Red Baron Farm the belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, especially a personal God or gods. "ideas about the relationship between science and religion" synonyms: faith, belief, worship, creed; More sect, church, cult, denomination "the freedom to practice their own religion" a particular system of faith and worship. plural noun: religions "the world's great religions"

[@starrix4712]

The word vegan seems to be your god more than actually just being vegan

[@dankrainbowmoon6959]

I am glad to hear this. I have been vegan for 3 years but have recently been diagnosed with Ulcerative Colitis. It has taken so much from me. During flare ups it’s very hard to absorb nutrients (and right now I can’t work to pay for all the supplements I would need because I’m hospitalized and can only take what my insurance covers, which are the standard autoimmune suppressors and steroids that don’t do anything but mask symptoms.) And eating a high fiber diet is actually really hard on the colon & not recommended by gastroenterologists, so a lot of people have issues being vegan with UC. My doctors suggested that I should think about introducing meat/fish back into my diet because it is slow to digest and might not be as much of an irritant as excess fiber. But I can never go back to eating actual meat (and I’m lactose intolerant) so there’s no way I plan on wavering from veganism, but I have to TRY something so that I can heal enough to be in a steady remission. I have to do more research on the health benefits/dangers but this just might be an answer to help compromise. What a great conversation, and I think the vegan community should start understanding that some people’s bodies really do have complete different microbiomes and could really thrive if we stopped being so restrictive and really looked at the science here.

[@ashleycasey2093]

***** yay you used my link! And no it's not hypocritical. But you would have no idea how many arguments I've gotten into with vegans about this. For a lot of them, its not about non-suffering, it's about sticking to the definition that some guy made up in the 1940s, which I find stupid, dogmatic, and retrogressive. In fact, I literally don't understand people who think like that. And yep, I'm a ostrovegan, it fixed my b12 and iron problems naturally without artificial supplementation.

[@manga4774]

great idea! oysters have b12 in it? i didnt know...another great bonus

[@ashleycasey2093]

manga4774 Yup, in fact mussels are one of the most potent sources of b12, DHA and iron without the cholesterol or the cruelty. www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-farmacy/201205/mussel-your-brain

[@ringo11994]

A lot of people who follow the "strict" definition belong to Spiritual systems that believe eating plant life instead of animal life will make you more in tune with nature and closer to "the source" and that's why they try to avoid animal products.

[@manga4774]

ringo11994 i get where youre coming from, but ive always considered indiginious people to be some of the most spiritually connected poeple on earth..and they do eat meat/seafood sometimes. i do agree that the less animal product in the body, the cleaner your whole system is

[@naturallyemi]

ringo11994 and that might even be true for some, though not for others.

[@dfleischman]

Nice and accurate summary of my blogs and the opposing side! Enjoyed your video very much.

[@tracy2919]

I think the benefit of the doubt argument is a valid one. I think the slippery slope argument is not valid. By that logic, we should outlaw imitation and fake meats. I appreciate the calm and informative nature of this video.

[@starrix4712]

You could doubt whether a fish feels pain or not. Wondering about bivalves would mean you must wonder about plants.

[@metalrunner4398]

Long term ethical vegan here and I do eat mussels occassionally. See no ethical issue since I live near a mussel farm. All you need for it is a rope plus they contribute to a clean sea water, zero by victims. Mussels farming is far less harmful for animals than organic tomato farming.

[@rafrokid79]

Thank you UV, I was trying to get some other channels to address this, you are the first one ive seen, good work!!

[@jessicaemslie7149]

Mussels have been a staple for me since childhood and we always harvest our own in an ethical way - they would definitely be a good meat substitute for me .

[@Aud-Rey38]

I absolutely LOVE mussels and I was thrilled to learn that they most likely don't feel pain. I eat them often now. Thay have replaced meat in my diet for the most part. Yum yum. Mussels and fries...my favorite.

[@emilymorgan817]

I think the ethical problem isn't eating the oyster that doesn't feel pain, it's the whole fishing thing, exploiting our oceans and ecosystems? I don't know anything about oyster fishing so can't really say but that would be the main thing id want to learn about before I included them in my diet.

[@PrimalShutter]

+emily morgan This, but she mentions oyster farming, that I wasn't aware. If you get to know where it came from then it shouldn't be a problem.

[@James-vg5zj]

+emily morgan exactly! she's presenting veganism as only an "animals feel pain" PoV. There are many reasons to be vegan: environmental, ethical, health/medical, etc. and just bc oysters and mussels might not feel pain, doesn't mean that farming them won't have negative implications on the environment they're apart of, a person's health, etc.. V confused by this channel.

[@herbivorouscyborg2398]

The only reason the environment is important is because of the effect that it has on animals

[@edthoreum7625]

great conversation, yet so sad that only a few care about these issues!

[@billhicks8]

"The only reason the environment is important is because of the effect that it has on animals" Late to this comment, but this is absolute bullshit.

[@Lu-kb6sz]

You always discuss ALL the themes I've thought about before changing my diet (I'm not vegan). I eat oysters, they don't have a brain or nervous system in order to feel pain. I love how you do your research and don't speak without knowing. You are awsome.

[@bregieirofernandes]

I love how rational you are. Subscribed!

[@PrettyYounqThang]

I will say to not eat those sea creatures for the sake of the environment. Oysters play a very important role in the ecosystem of the ocean. They help keep the water clean and healthy for the other creatures living in it, so if humans continue to fish for them we are doing a lot of damage to the waters and sea life. All that damage and suffering on top of polution. Also fishers who would be fishing for the muscles and oysters do often accidentally catch other marine life, so other animals with higher cognitive functions are being negatively affected. Based on the points stated previously, I do not consider muscles and oysters vegan as it causes unnecessary suffering to sea animals.

[@richardhollis3783]

+Lily A very good point, well made. But what would you say if those oysters and mussels were farmed?

[@PrettyYounqThang]

+Richard Hollis Even so, the oysters and mussels are being used solely to feed humans which is still not vegan.

[@NancyHey]

I agree, I think all of those are good reasons for not eating them. Another consideration is that they may be the only food source for certain carnivorous birds that need to eat them more than humans do.

[@valken666]

Nancy Hey - Are you pro-abortion? I mean, the fetus has some nerves. I hate a theory that vegans are playing a game to see who is more left-wing.

[@teesha123]

I feel environmentalism is a strong reason why people are vegan too, and so they would want to do their bet to not hinder the planet so much by depleting it's resources (animals etc)

[@theanemicproblematicvegan7998]

that's the primary reason I became vegan. also, bivalve harvesting is often done on pillars, which doesn't need to catch them in nets or to destroy the sea floor. they don't require persticides. also, bivalves can serve as water cleansers for the ocean. so mossel and oyster harvesting might actually be good for the environement. I don't know so much if it's good for human health, though. I'd rather not eat something that has been filtering those gross costal waters...

[@conniesrawsomekitchen]

no different than taking the filter out of ur air conditioner and giving it a good lick. No thank you

[@rontaggart1455]

Wait...Don't oysters produce pearls as a way to deal with the pain of sand that has gotten into the shell? Pretty sure they do.

[@pikachuiswatchingyou]

No, oysters just produce mother-of-pearl inside their shells. It happens that sometimes (accident or purpose), a piece of sand is stuck and get coated juste like the cavity of the shell. Sometimes it is stuck to the shell, sometimes it is loose and becomes a pearl. It is not always round.

[@josephp.1919]

Well it depends on whether it’s a mechanical/chemical cascade as opposed to a conscious decision made on the part of the pearl. Grass has been shown to produce certain chemicals when it is being cut, these chemicals have been shown to attract insects that pray on the insects that’s consume grass. Is the grass doing this consciously and as a response to “pain” from being cut/eaten? No, obviously not, grass isn’t not sentient, it does not have a nervous system, it does not feel pain. The same question applies to the production of pearls.

[@grasshair7266]

My wife and I decided to eat local oysters and muscles recently to supplement our diet with extra iron and zinc. I am glad I am not the only one who thinks this way. I think eating them once a month can help your health greatly and my son enjoys the change.

[@sarahf8585]

I have been vegan for almost 2 years. However me becoming vegan was a very rushed thing where I was not informed and watched just biased documentaries. I would never eat meat or participate in factory farming but I think that oysters, local/ethical eggs (not from s fake "free-range farm" but if you know someone that had chickens and you are aware of the situation), and local/ethical honey are okay. As long as you are aware of the conditions from where you get eggs and honey are, I think it's fine. I don't personally do any of this but if I wanted to I think eating any of the above would (for me) be ethical.

[@TDace25]

Sarah F well said! Been vegan for two years and have recently incorporated mussels into my diet. Your approach is way more sustainable and a better approach for most people

[@jillmayer9501]

I completely agree. My only concern with backyard eggs or honey is that it could snowball into what we have now - mass production of both. And there’s no way to mass produce those things without harming them.

[@BeccaBoltification]

I'm going to do some research on oyster and bivalve farming. Thanks!

[@GorgeousGabbBaby]

Great video, well all of your videos are made so well! Thanks for sharing :)

[@jessejaymes2078]

This is so interesting and I don't recall anyone ever brought this up in a video. Loving your videos. Very interesting point of view I've never thought of as a vegan

[@havefunandbikestuff]

So I was at a bachelor party last week and a bunch of non vegan friends ordered and ate oysters and i was offered an oyster. But then the friends said "too bad you couldn't eat oysters, because it's not vegan" so i educated them on the sentient being and pain issue and i ate 2 oysters and they were okay. I actually missed eating them as it's been 8 years. So if that debunked my vegan card then just call me ostrovegan cyborg then.the non vegans even pondered trying vegan if they could still eat oysters. That's all I gotta say. No I didnt get sick. And no I didnt get any digestion issues.

[@ohlawd3699]

Before any decision is made, the fact that there's a difference between "pain" and "suffering" must be established. Pain is a physical sensation or signal indicating an event within the body whilst suffering is a negative interpretation of that event and involves thoughts, beliefs, or judgments, and reflects the experience of pain. So just because a certain organism might feel pain doesn't necessarily mean that it's suffering, in fact that "pain" could even be pleasurable to it. But in anycase, if an organism has no brain to begin with, how can it experience suffering? 😊👍

[@user-wv8ju3dw8s]

Bivalves do have a brain, in fact. The bivalve brain usually gets labelled as a "cerebral ganglion" ("cerebral" means brain) rather than simply "brain", because it isn't contained in a skull. But once you get beyond the semantics it IS a brain, because that's how it functions. Which is why biologists often refer to the bivalve "cerebral ganglion (brain)" or "brain (cerebral ganglion)". There's plenty of evidence to indicate that they are sentient. There are two videos on the channel The 2am Vegan which go into this topic in depth, and there are dozens of scientific research references given in the two video descriptions.

[@ohlawd3699]

​​​@@user-wv8ju3dw8s No, they do not have brains. A simple Google search will confirm it for you. And you cannot experience sentience without a brain. There's no need to make up nonsense, just stick to facts and objectivity. 😏

[@user-wv8ju3dw8s]

@@ohlawd3699 Searches say "no brain" because it doesn't have a skull (which is part of the standard definition of "brain"). So it gets labelled as a "cerebral ganglion" instead. But functionally it's still a brain, and it sustains their consciousness. Hence: "Bivalves have a cerebral ganglion (brain") [Evolutionary Neuroscience journal]. Stop pretending you know more about anatomy than the Evolutionary Neuroscience journal.

[@albalmal]

What a well-rounded and pragmatic video, very impressed!

[@RobertJBarnes]

Love this. I know a bee keeper and it seems bees don't suffer at all. And bee keepers generally love bees. I'm not kidding.

[@manga4774]

you know what ill be eating at my local seafood restaurant this week?? you guessed it.......glad i dont have to give up like my all time favourite food

[@allencrider]

You don't have to give up anything because you're not a vegan. Nor are you a vegetarian.

[@manga4774]

id consider myself a vegan, or that fancy term that was talked about in the video, and it doesnt bother me that some dont think i am! ill still call myself a vegan, and will continue to associate with you guys!

[@allencrider]

manga4774 Oh yeah? Well I'm a charming and sophisticated guy who is a world class superhuman being! LOL

[@ashleycasey2093]

manga4774 ignore the dogmatic troll.

[@ashleycasey2093]

allencrider No, actually he is. Sorry :)

[@museumghost]

I love that 90 percent of the frickin commenters on any of your stuff clearly did not watch the entire video or even attempt to process the information presented. :v

[@favea]

I have been following you for a couple of years already and I just want to tell you that I admire your journey, truth and sparkly soul! you look more radiant, at peace and happy than ever and I do believe you are making all the right choices for yourself :) your skin and hair are just gorgeous! I am trying to find my perfect balance within the whole foods vegan diet as well and I have to recognize, that raw foods are so hard on my digestion. goes against all my beliefs and wishes but it seems to be the right way for now. xx

[@mirzamay]

Also, thank you for helping me remember these things and clarify in my mind what I do and don't want.

[@TDace25]

Been “vegan” for almost two years and have recently started incorporating mussels into my diet mostly cause I enjoy them but they’re also a great source of protein and omega 3 and b-12. If I’m not a true vegan than w/e but mussels are farmed ethnically and basically a sea plant

[@zelda7729]

Yes!! I completly agree !! Being vegan is all about sentience to me. Thank you for giving an alternative perspective than what is pushed by other vegans.

[@lili16k]

Me too! I really think the vegan definition should be about animals who are capable of suffering / feeling pain. As vegans we just don't want to harm animals. It makes no sense to put the definition around the biological categorization of animals, like...??

[@gustavogomez7331]

Love this video. Very interesting info.and you make some great points. Thank you !

[@luhsea]

So happy you made this video - I've been mulling over this topic for a while now! I'm still not sure where I stand but it's good to hear your opinion on the issue. I definitely agree that militantly sticking to the definition of vegan just because isn't the best way to go about things - critically thinking about these issues is important! I may consider occasionally consuming mussels or oysters in the future (only rope-grown or hand picked by divers though, as environmental concerns are one of my main reasons for going vegan) but on the other hand I don't think it's necessary and in a way it seems wrong to take a life (regardless of whether pain is involved or not) in a situation where it is not a necessity.

[@TheMusicalGameroriginal]

The litmus test for me? Does it have a brain? The brain is the epicenter for consciousness and if it has a brain, it is off limits.

[@TheMusicalGameroriginal]

***** Well, you cant know anything with full certainty, but you can get close. But just think about it. Blow someone's arm off, they still have consciousness, transplant a heart, the consciousness stays the same. Blow someone's brain out and the consciousness ends. It is located in the brain.

[@jessa.4529]

I literally talked with my wife this weekend abt this video and how ideas like this and non militant thinking could help me make the hop from veg to vegan. I feel this can apply to many and is reasonable

[@shelinesim1038]

8 years on and this video is still great! the really strict boundaries that vegans are stereotyped to have seems to do little to encourage non-vegans to explore non-omnivore diets and i 100% agree that a conversation about underlying values are wayyy more productive

[@thefuumanchuu]

People roll their eyes at me but I think that plants feel pain.

[@jazzy9359]

See I wasn't really sure. But because I live in a coastal town in Virginia, its very cheap to eat these creatures. I wont feel as guilty to eat fried oysters since they don't have a central processing center.

[@jazzy9359]

***** I don't think you are being hypocritical. But if the evidence comes out, I know you will change, and I will too.

[@jazzy9359]

Plus! I feel that this helps me socially with my family because we are largely pescetarian. I just took it one step further. It helps as summer is coming up and I can still be a part of social gatherings around food like our fish frys.

[@dodgeball693]

I had oyster soup on Christmas eve because it was there and I wanted some. I don't consider it vegan but I didn't really care at the time. My Mom cooks it every year and it reminds me of happy days, so that was more important in the moment. And I've had other 'slips' that would surely get me booted out of any vegan club, lol.

[@EmilySmith41309]

First video I've seen of yours and I am subscribed! This is extremely helpful and hopeful for me, as I've been vegan for about 6 months and I'm having a really hard time mostly with other vegans who are so militant and unyielding, with no interest in listening to logical compromises. I am not a fan of people who follow every "rule" prescribed by a specific morality - the all or nothing mentality - I think it's dangerous and irresponsible. So thank you for your insight and I look forward to hearing more of your thoughts in the future ^_^

[@sevio8]

Love your channel so far.

[@matchbox555]

they are such a great source of natural b12.. perfect for vegans

[@almac9203]

So is a steak but that isn't vegan nor are shellfish.

[@Loryata666]

Oh man, I'm vegan but I used to freakin love mussels (especially in Paris) so this is very interesting! Then again they're only really good when slathered in a buttery or creamy sauce so maybe not an option

[@PancakeInvaders]

hey maybe it would be good with some vegan cream based sauce and coconut oil instead of butter. Coconut oil has the saturated fat that makes butter butter

[@AnCatDubh0]

any update on this? I recently ate mussels and a friend was confused by it. Wondering whether there is any new evidence one way or the other.

[@user-wv8ju3dw8s]

You might want to check out this video: "No, Vegans Do NOT Eat Oysters! Yes, All Bivalves ARE Sentient! (Part 2.)" Lots of scientific citations, old and new, pointing to bivalves being sentient.

[@yaash4123]

As a vegan I'd be more concerned about the method used to harvest the bivalves than whether or not they feel pain. I'm sure it impacts sea life that live around them that certainly do feel pain.

[@laela6289]

They can be farmed.

[@goaltoastie]

rope farmed oysters eliminates this concern :)

[@GiaTheSweetPotato]

Honestly, I understand where you're coming from, but I'm just going to agree to disagree. Whether they feel pain or not is irrelevant. They are ours to eat. Imagine if you couldn't feel pain, so someone thought that they were justified in eating you? Even if you couldn't feel it happening, they still took your life away without your consent. Even if I did think that the ability to feel pain was relevant, I would still think that it's better to let bivalves have the benefit of the doubt. While it is true that you could use that same argument on plants, then humans would be left with nothing to eat and would die. Humans can survive just fine without bivalves, but we would die without plants.

[@SpazzyMcGee1337]

You are very sensible.

[@JoolieRoolie]

you are quickly becoming my favorite vegan blogger here on youtube. you keep it real.

[@jonhabens6827]

I love that you said 'I'm not commanding y'all'! I realise this wasn't the topic in the video but are the reasons you wouldn't eat Oysters because of health concerns?

[@ErinJanus]

They have nerve ganglia.. which is similar to the nervous system that allows us to feel pain. Why eat something with nerve ganglia, many bi-valves even have sperm, eyeballs and they poop. If you feel the desire or need to eat these things, I suggest incorporating a hell of a lot more FRUIT into your diet.

[@ashleycasey2093]

Erin Janus And plants have neurotransmitters which is similar to neurons. What's your point?

[@naturallyemi]

Erin Janus I agree fruit is one of the healthiest foods on the planet. I can't go a day without eating enough fruit. BUT, fruit does not provide B-12, vit. D, omega-3s DHA/EPA, and have barely any choline & iodine. All extremely important for health. If bivalves were accepted as vegan, which they should be since the evidence is overwhelming that they do not feel pain, we would have a much stronger movement since many people end up struggling with health even a year after going Vegan, doing everything they could possibly do right. I, myself have tried taking Zinc supplements because I was losing hair (still am) and was very itchy all over my body which are symptoms of deficiency. The supplement gave me stomach aches, and it interacts with other nutrients. It simply did not feel right. So now I am still left with this problem even though I eat a good variety of whole foods. I already supplement B-12 (the default that all vegans need to supplement with) and vit. D in the winter because Canada. My body doesn't properly convert ALA into DHA/EPA. I cannot afford 3 supplement bottles every month. All of these problems I can fix by eating bivalves; non-sentient beings.

[@NicolaDiNisio]

***** For DHA/EPA try Ovega3 based supplements. They are a bit expensive, but cheaper than fish in the end. It is done by extracting DHA/EPA from the micro-algae that the fish themselves eat. So you cut the ... fish in the middle ;) It works, I have tested it on myself, checking every two months with a serum lipid panel. My DHA and EPA level got consistently higher, while the same did not happen with ALA alone, my middle-age male body does not cut it anymore... and for some it is the case at any age. But bivalves do not come with DHA and EPA alone, they also bring in selenuim, vit E, vit B12 and many more good things. They are more expensive, but the package is more comprehensive.

[@naturallyemi]

***** I wanted to order them but then I would also have to pay for shipping, which would come up to 60$ for that supplement alone. I already supplement 2 vitamins (B-12 and D) so I can't afford another one. :( It would be like 100$ a month in supplements compared to maybe 30$ bivalves. I also remembered I can get mussels for free at my parent's restaurant. Everyone's situation is different. You're right bivalves provide many nutrients, they're a package deal. A non-sentient package deal.

[@nagev7239]

+Erin Janus well said.

[@LurkingCrassZero]

A common sense vegan. Refreshing to see ;-)

[@valentia1752]

If you’re a vegan for environmental reasons, oysters are a great way to save the planet too. I am a part of a team who build oyster reefs from shells from local restaurants. Many oyster farms are growing triploid oysters these days, and although they are sterile, they’re still contributing to water filtration. The oysters we grow are fertile, diploid, and native to the local area. Supporting the oyster industry also helps with climate change, because the filtered water (thanks to the oysters) is a lot more clear. This allows aquatic plants to thrive, and these plants store CO2. These plants are also crucial for animals like sea turtles.

[@robinreinhart7995]

Hi I just wanted to say that I love your channel! I really appreciate your well researched opinions and open-minded perspective. This video really hit home for me, veganism gets a bad rap from the militant vegans you refer to. I am a philosophy major and went vegan after reading Peter Singer's Animal Liberation. I thought you might have a background in philosophy as well from your arguing style and now referencing SInger? Anyways, cheers!

[@emmahowes9369]

Thank you unnatural vegan I decided to become an ostrovegan. I'm still really passionate about veganism but I feel I can't call myself vegan due to some of the communities attitudes to ostroveganism.

[@CC-yh2yq]

just because they don't feel pain ,or less cognitively developed,doesn't give us a right to kill them

[@CC-yh2yq]

+Lori Caplan yes

[@morgenroete8789]

going by your logic it also wouldn't be ok to kill plants.

[@quarteracreadventures855]

The same could be said about plants... they don't feel pain, so we don't have the right to kill them??

[@alexserrano2850]

iliketotallyloveit Your original comment it's pretty confusing. So you don't need people stating their opinion about eating animals because people need to eat, period?

[@Daniel-jo2mc]

but you kill carrots

[@Magnulus76]

Years ago as an ethical Buddhist vegetarian I ate shellfish occasionally, for similar reasons. In some parts of Asian, shellfish is considered an acceptable Buddhist dietary choice. One health issue is that bivalves are often contaminated by harmful cyanobacteria (Red Tide) that have been associated with ALS. On health reasons alone, I'd avoid them.

[@milkyway6812]

Is wearing pearls vegan? Do they kill or hurt them when they're triyng to get the pearls out?

[@Macabresque]

I entirely agree with your stance on this issue. I don't think it's hypocritical, as long as they're sustainably harvested & it causes little to no harm to the environment. Though at this rate, I think most of the sea harvesting we are doing is extremely unsustainable, so I feel that we need to just leave the oceans alone for a while. However, I find oysters and mussels to be slimy and gross, never been a fan of seafood much either. So it's not a big problem for me personally.

[@dreamingrightnow1174]

+Macabresque If choosing between two, bivalves (bottom feeders) you'd be healthier to eat an egg, in my opinion; and it definitely doesn't hurt the egg.

[@dreamingrightnow1174]

***** With respect to this subject, there's a tautology I've noticed among vegans that reminds me of religious fundamentalism. When asked how eating eggs hurts chickens, the subject of factory farms comes up, which begs the question: If the chickens are raised in a humane environment, it must then be ethical to eat them. Most people will (reluctantly) agree that this is true; no one has ever given me additional information that egg-eating is morally wrong otherwise. So my question is, beyond raising chickens under bad conditions, why would eating eggs be a problem? And if it isn't a problem, then why say it is, if the real issue is how the animals are treated? This is like saying Oswald wore a windbreaker the day he shot the president, windbreakers should be outlawed. Cruelty to animals is repugnant, why not just stick with that point?Because a lot of people could get behind that, and then maybe factory farms could become a thing of the past.

[@MlleSandraF]

While I agree the cruelty of factory farming should be our first concern and first step, "humanely" raised chicken and their eggs are still not our property. Not only are eggs extremely detrimental to our health, but we find ourselves in the same old slippery slope that is human entitlement and use that more often than not turns to ABUSE. In their natural state, hens lay eggs until they have a full nest, and if the we didn't remove their eggs some would naturally stop laying them. A lot of them even eat their unfertilized eggs to restore the nutrients that were depleted by the laying process. In the end, it's about understanding animals are not our property and we have no right to claim they are and treat them as such. You wouldn't take a human mother's extra milk from her because she's living in a "humane environment" and that it would go to "waste" otherwise now, wouldn't you ?

[@dreamingrightnow1174]

T Sandra F. Clyde Well, first I want to thank you for responding, I appreciate hearing other perspectives. Although, I don't see the issue the same way, I appreciate that your interest is in being respectful to and protective of animals, who can't speak for themselves. So, props to you. :)

[@dreamingrightnow1174]

***** As I read these thoughtful replies, it occurs to me that, as far as the morality issue is concerned, we simply have different interpretations of what animals need and want from humans, and what is a punishing situation for backyard hens and what isn't. If I saw it the way you do, I would come to the same conclusion you do. We're each concerned about animal welfare and each have different guesses about how the hens would experience that scenario. I live in Portland, Oregon and here in the city there are many backyard chicken coops. I've never seen one that gave me cause for concern, and this has been going on for years, which means that it is quite sustainable. Much more so than driving one's vehicle to Safeway. Many people plant edible plants and fruit producing shrubs and trees instead of lawns; community gardens abound as well. All this improves the quality of life in Portland, and conserves natural resources and reduces vehicle emissions. Despite disagreeing with you about the morality of the issue, as an animal lover, I appreciate very much that you, and others, are willing to speak out on what you consider their behalf. And I appreciate that you've done it in a peaceful and tolerant way, which isn't often the case. And when you call for more empathy and respect for animals in general, you're absolutely right. It's our duty to protect animals and all of the natural world, so thank you.

[@richardhollis3783]

Hmm. This is an interesting one. Personally I don't even like the idea of bonsai trees (you have to bind their roots!). The idea that I'm possibly being irrational grates horribly against my sense that killing/contorting probably-not-sentient, living things just FEELS wrong. It's not something I've even really resolved in my own head. That said I do completely agree that eating bivalves might be a good route to go for people who struggle on a vegan diet. And I am well aware that some people really do - some ex-vegans report a vegan diet left them feeling unhealthy. Perhaps mussels and oysters could have aleviated that?

[@FreeRadicalslifestyle]

Hey Swazye Always good to see your perspective, on what is for some a, subject to get up in arms about and pound the vegan righteousness drum. It is always a first world problem that gets its outing as if you should "choose" are you a vegan or what you will eat. On another note sorry to see your blog going away, I know you really only vlog these days, but just having all your great content on a platform they could shut you down on without warning is not good. If the business end of your message is providing you with the funds, it would be good to see maybe an abbreviated transcript on your blog, as there is many times I would rather take a couple of minutes to read your material than have to watch 8-10 on a slow internet speed. Regards Russell

[@ves8720]

I'm a strict vegan and I actually really agree with you. I don't think we should commit to ideas we haven't even explored first. That being said, I'm not gonna go eat an oyster, either.

[@leaningraw]

I say it is best to play it safe and not eat any animals. If we someday could prove that plants feel pain and suffer, we still would need to eat them or die (we could stick to fruit and just cull green leaves and let most of the greens plant live out). If I was stuck on a raft in the ocean for 10 months with fishing gear, I would fish and eat them; I would eat fish or die in that scenario. I would choose my life. But since there is no rational reason to eat fish, I don't. There is a rational reason to eat plants. For muscles - no rational reason to eat them - so best play it safe.

[@evelynbaron2004]

Your argument interests me; there was a book titled The Screaming Carrot and Prince Charles talks to his plants; a worthy man but I am trying to make a pragmatic point.

[@Naetanarr]

Why would anyone want to eat smelly Oysters anyway?! gross

[@shadowstargate]

Why would anyone want to eat stuff that has come out of the ground? gross

[@rafrokid79]

+Tara N You obviously havnt had fresh ones straight off the rocks in New Zealand

[@dreamingrightnow1174]

+Rebecca Wilson You mean like a potato? =D

[@7eardstapa7]

I have no problem with the idea. However, the implementation is tricky for me. Shellfish are temperamental to cook and keep food safe while still being tasty. Scallops would probably be the only type I'd feel comfortable preparing at home.

[@rupinlamistoufle8375]

I'm vegan but I was in the south of Europe last week and my friends were picking up mussels directly from the rocks. Then we took the mussels home, cleaned them and cooked them with white wine and other delicious plant based ingredients. And it was a feast! Out of topic but I'm binge watching all of your videos tonight :)

[@kakefyll]

What is your stance on abortion? Not really a vegan issue, but I find it weird that so many vegans are pro-choice with more or less no limit (late term abortion is a ok etc.). Wouldn't it make sence (if you wanted to reduce suffering) to at least be against abortion after the fetus can feel pain (the jury is still out on that one though, when they can I mean)? And since we are not sure at what exact point that happens, shouldn't one be cautious with abortion (unlike what people are today). I'd be curious to hear your thoughs. It just seems weird to me that someone who cares about insects, bivalves, fish etc. wouldn't care for a fetus that could feel pain

[@FemmeLaV]

Marthe Endresen I really don't think this is comparable at all... Abortion is a last-resort solution for the person concerned and it could be the only way to avoid further suffering - it has nothing to do with consumption. Nobody is "pro-abortion", they are pro-choice. They are FOR having the freedom to make their own decision and it's not a decision anyone takes lightly.

[@kakefyll]

Last resort? Oftentimes not, oftentimes it is used as a contraception....

[@kakefyll]

And I also think it's pretty daft to be for abortion in all stages of development, which was what I asked about. Cause having an abortion then would most certainly cause suffering

[@kakefyll]

Nobody? Are you serious, yes they do. Most abortions aren't done for rape and such issues. Of course not in the sense that they use it before they get pregant, but they can't be bothered to use any before cause "hey, can just get an abortion if I get pregnant" etc. It seems to be the attitude towards it at least. I am for early abortion, as in before the fetus can feel pain, but beyond that abortion causes more suffering than it prevents imo. If one is for abortion thorugh all the months (Besides the life of the mother being in danger) I would say that is pretty sick. And hypocritical if you are a vegan trying to reduce suffering

[@kakefyll]

And I used it as a phrase, not ment literally. But of course you go all attacky just because I dare mention abortion and not shout anything but "a womans body, a womans choice". Exept when someone else is in that body, which at some point can feel pain and suffer. Instead of commenting on what you feel about late term abortion vs early abortion, or even abortion before and after the fetus can feel pain, you just focus on that one phrase. Classy

[@siriusneo6517]

the filter of the sea, would you eat a filter?

[@ashleycasey2093]

And plants are the filter of the air. What's your point?

[@phillipgalea6054]

Sirius Neo plants are proven to feel pain oysters are not and are a great b12 supply, eat em. www.smithsonianchannel.com/videos/do-plants-respond-to-pain/12151 www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2677858/Bad-news-vegetarians-Plants-hear-eaten.html

[@phillipgalea6054]

***** Speciesism is a word (not in the dictionary) invented by vegans to insult the rest of us but it seems to work well here to describe anyone who after seeing all the evidence would look at a plant and a chicken and say that only one of the two living thinking beings feels pain and has a right to live. This is not to say just because plants or animals are aware and feel pain they are sentient. The requirement for sentience being well established empathy, advanced cognitive reasoning, , use or understanding of fire, the ability to rise above natural instincts, use of tools stone age or better, use of spoken language or other form of communication that allows for the communication of complicated ideas. all a must to be considered sentient. We are the only sentient life on this planet. All living things have a right to consume other living things if it provides nourishment. Only sentient beings have a responsibility not to consume other sentient beings. The ethical questions hear are given plants are aware is it still ok to kill them for the reasons we do. Simply because we like the look of other plants more and given the amount of pain inflicted by cutting the grass would it be more ethical just to let it grow long. Animals have it fairly good. We now think its wrong to kill an animal unless its in pain, a pest, contains us fall products, is dangerous or delicious. Is it not time we show plants the same consideration.

[@phillipgalea6054]

***** Do you not know anything about health. Animal protein is fine, so are good fats and good sugar's. Its all about portion size and following the food pyramid. www.lifeclinic.com/focus/nutrition/food-pyramid.asp Any other diet is going to be less healthy.

[@phillipgalea6054]

***** milk has nothing in it that can harm you thanks to the 19th century invention of pasteurization en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pasteurization

[@crossfam5940]

In my opinion oysters are more of a sea mushroom than an animal.

[@Rachel_hikes_the_PCT]

so if it turned out all plants felt pain what woud you do? like atwhat point do you put yourself before others?

[@LawdyGawd]

+Rachel Harris It is an interesting question. I'm sure most people would decide that one's survival trumps the feelings of other creatures. Which is why nearly everyone considers killing in self-defense morally acceptable. And it is also why the consumption of house-pets and other humans occurs during events of extreme famine. So if all plants, animals and fungi felt pain, then perhaps the best options would be to either a) eat the ones who experience the least pain and suffering, or b) synthesize food in a lab. :) Or perhaps many of us would go the Jain route and starve ourselves to death.

[@user-mv7to6kt8j]

Oysters etc feel like meat, so I reckon it's too close to call. They definitely fall on the animal side as opposed to the plant side of things. I agree with that Bekof dude.

[@cultofmalgus1310]

Sam Smith also they are dirty anyways. I used to love them before I was vegan along with squid, octopus, lobster, clams, scallops and flounder. This was mostly due to my Italian background though and I havent eaten them since I was a teenager. Knowing all the pollution that goes on today, even if you arent vegan for ethical reasons the underlining health hazards of shell fish should be enough for anyone in the right mind to turn them down.

[@Tamizushi]

Sam Smith My concern with animal products is not about how the sensation of eating it is nor is it about the strict biological definition of what is or isn't an animal. My main concern about animal products is about animal suffering, and hence about sentience. If there is no sentience, then this concern does not apply.

[@user-mv7to6kt8j]

Kamizushi Akinari When I say they feel like meat, I intended for it to suggest that they are sentient, therefore shouldn't be eaten for moral reasons (not because the texture of meat is displeasing).

[@Tamizushi]

Sam Smith But, as the video explain, they do not have a brain and hence are probably not sentient.

[@user-mv7to6kt8j]

Kamizushi Akinari Yeah ok, sorry, misunderstood! I watched the video a while ago. But if it's "they are probably not sentient", then the fact that they seem like meat is enough to override the probability. Why take the risk if you're not sure if they can feel or not when they seem pretty close to meat.

[@quitteable]

Does cheese feel pain?

[@stuffandnonsense8528]

This was a very thoughtful piece and I think reaches the right conclusions.

[@alinasovane4341]

you are very open minded, and I like your scientific approach to this :)

[@shreyparmar6264]

Regardless of whether bivalves are sentient animals or not, farming them is more environmentally friendly than farming crops. Farming crops does have some negative environmental effects. You would kill less animals eating bivalves than eating tofu, beans, or lentils. If you really do care about animals, eating bivalves farmed responsibly is the way to go.

[@harmonyrose856]

Veganism is not about not causing pain to animals. If that was the case then vegans would promote and eat animals that have been 'humanely' raised and euthanised. Veganism is about not exploiting animals for our own gains and includes not causing cruelty. With regards to feeling pain, it's worthwhile not only looking at a nervous system, but also their sensory organs. Bivalves may not have a brain but they have a simple nervous system composed of a nerve network with a paired nerve cords (a cerebral ganglia which controls the sensory organs, while the pleural ganglia supply nerves to the mantle cavity). The sensory organs have been found to be chemoreceptors able to 'taste' the surrounding environment (tasting the water) and tactile receptors (sensitive to touch and vibration). A slight electrical stimulus to their body will elicit a contracture, whilst a strong stimulus will cause the retraction of the full body. To conclude they do not feel pain based on the fact that they have a rudimentary nervous system compared to higher order animals may be rather over simplistic. I'm not too sure of the attraction to eating bivalves but being the 'filter's of the sea, renown for accumulating heavy metals and organic pollutants within their bodies, I'm not sure this would be a good source of protein or B12. References: - Cofrancesco, Alfred F. (2002). "Nervous System and Sense Organs in Bivalves". Zebra Mussel Research Program. - Marine Mussels, their ecology and anatomy: books.google.com.au/books?id=Xe08AAAAIAAJ&pg=PA256&lpg=PA256&dq=bivalves+touch&source=bl&ots=GM5eHc2bv8&sig=HGJrv0Ht7oSY25mixTANpVLJdZQ&hl=en&sa=X&ei=78sbVaxNg-LwBfHGgYAF&ved=0CD8Q6AEwBg#v=onepage&q=bivalves%20touch&f=false

[@ashleycasey2093]

Harmony Rose so you're really saying that clams are of the same importance of cows. You're _really_ saying that killing a chicken humanely is the same thing as killing an animal that was never conscious at all.

[@harmonyrose856]

I'm saying that there is no evidence to show that bivalves feel no pain, but there is evidence of a rudimentary nervous and sensory system, and that they react to stimulus, which makes it feasible that they could feel pain.

[@ashleycasey2093]

Harmony Rose My dear child, there are anatomy blueprints of different classes of mollusks and they lack both a nervous system and a brain. To be able to interpret stimuli you have to have both. Bivalves have neither or. www.google.com/search?q=mollusk+anatomy&biw=1366&bih=667&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=4KokVY2HGIX2sAX974CgAw&ved=0CAYQ_AUoAQ#imgrc=JBMR-5nRi9Mm6M%253A%3Bdf7nFprET95G8M%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fxy936.wikispaces.com%252Ffile%252Fview%252Ft761279a.gif%252F209051414%252F495x398%252Ft761279a.gif%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fxy936.wikispaces.com%252FMore%252BOn%252BMollusks!%3B544%3B408

[@harmonyrose856]

Sadly, I'm not a child any more but thank you for the compliment. You've made an old woman smile :) I included several credible references already in my initial post; however, if you want to search for yourself on google, try searching 'mollusk ganglion' instead of just anatomy (ganglion being a cluster of nerve cells), you'll have more luck finding their nervous system; including the pedal, caudal and visceral ganglia, and the cerebral ganglion (cerebral as in the cerebrum of the brain) - interesting that they've identified the such, don't you think? Even more interesting is that Kandel in 2000 showed that mollusk nerve cells could retain memories - he won a Nobel prize for this work. Here's some more specific research (and photos/diagrams) on the neurology of the mollusk, Aplysia: cc1.rsmas.miami.edu/slugs/scientific-importance.html

[@ashleycasey2093]

Harmony Rose _Aplysia_ isn't a bivalve its a univalve or a gastropod. They are different classes but are from the same Phylum Mollusca. Gastropods evolved primitive brains, and seeing, but bivalves didn't evolve either of the two. It's very common for people to get these two classes confused for each other.

[@josivujev559]

Hey Unnatural Vegan! First of all, I really like the way you speak and the tone of your voice and most of all the way you think..so, bravo and thank for making these videos! So, I have an important (to me) question - when talking about suffering, and how most vegans or all of them are vegans for the cause of reducing the suffering - are these vegans or all vegans against abortus? I would be GREAT if you'd make a video on that topic, but a simple respond would be great too :p Thanks!

[@LetterV]

Another excellent video! Thank you.