Are Fighting Games too Hard to Learn? | How to make Fighting Games Fun to Everyone

[@yoshitsune5691]

My first fighting game I really dived into was tekken 7(arcade release) in my opinion I’d rather not have an “easy mode” because hard games brings in a community u know? Like the amount of people I met in locals helping me out with combos, fundamentals, tech, ect was amazing, I would of never made this amount of friends playing Skyrim at home. Yes fighting games are hard but with help from the community it becomes easier to learn fighting games.

[@Bachiru]

That's dope really, I remember that happening during BlazBlue Continuum Shift Days and with a good offline scene this is what Fighting Games are all about. I still feel for the majority of players who just want to play creating a separate experience (that does not interfere with the core game) would be nice to bring in more people( and sales) and perhaps those people will fall in love with Fighting Games and take them more seriously

[@anthonypimentel7218]

We need rewards for people playing single player too like unlockables etc, I know a few people who like fighting games and don't play online, we can't play each other these days as we're spread all over the country now I'm really into 3rd Strike, and there's definitely a lot of fun in improving long term, it's like Quake 3 in that way - sure the endings are rewards but it needs more than just that Tekken 3 was great for unlockables, I think more like that is needed, but also maybe a non linear story mode or some rpg style elements so you can learn new moves and build up different attributes like speed,.defence etc Hope I'm making sense, am pretty high, good video dude and very inspiring - I'm planning on developing a fighting game for casuals, it's more of a one on one platform snooter/melee Fighter, gonna do a mobile version to try get more people in, arcades are dead where I am but a game people can play against each other on mobile, then upload the data to their console or pc and have it affect the proper version - it might help bring back the social aspect I miss from arcades definitely some random elements can add to the fun

[@OP-er3fg]

I don’t think motion inputs should ever go away, but we definitely need to tone down the execution barrier if fighting games are to survive in the future.

[@Fuzzietomato1]

Its not the inputs, its the lack of people to play at your skill level starting out.

[@urajcptn]

IMO, I think Granblue VS handled the execution for beginners issue really well. I’ve always had extra difficulty with move inputs for some reason and it made getting into fighting games super hard. GBVS did a lot for me by having a simple execution option, while still leaving me to figure out the combos and cancels myself. It gave me space to learn fundamentals without fully dumbing down the gameplay. By having the reward for proper execution be faster cooldown and a bit more power, I had something to improve on, but I could bail and use the simple option under extreme pressure if need be and maybe still eke out a win. I can’t speak for how more experienced people feel about that game, but I owe it to GBVS for giving me what I needed to finally be able to give fgs a proper shot. I can now do move executions well enough to play something like Strive online and sort of know what I’m doing!

[@Bachiru]

I dunno why I forgot GBVS, you're absolutely right about the execution + big IP with a good roster+ game modes

[@SpyralKing]

I've absolutely LOVED fighting games for years now, mainly anime 2d fighters like blazblue/guiltygear etc. I mainly enjoy the characters, the animations and musics. They're just beautiful games as an art nerd. But I'm much more of a casual player, and even tho I've played them casually on and off for years now execution is still a big hurdle that discourages me from playing many times cause they are not games that are just plug and play. It requires constant involvement to get the proper experience and fun that they can offer. Which sucks because I know they are very enjoyable games when you know how to actually play them.

[@neostormOCREMIX]

The difficulty that most people are not mentioning is the understanding of frame data and especially in terms of executing during limited frame windows. Street Fighter 5 is notorious for having varying degrees of frame windows, including the worst "Just Frame" windows. It would be easier to play if the windows were less punishing than they are.

[@luminaree7]

My first fighting games were P4A and KOFXIII. Idk where I'd put them on a scale of difficulty, but I know I would never have been into fighting games if not for BBTAG, and UNIST thereafter. With as much hate as it gets, I think BBTAG is the best mix between accessibility and complexity, for a new FG player at least. The game feels fast, fun and easy, and it lets a lot of space to grow and experience with many character combinations (since it's a tag game). It taught me how important combos, training mode, pressure, all the basics of FG and character synergy were. I think it's possible to "mix the 2 crowds" with the Guilty Gear Xrd system (talking about STYLISH and TECHNICAL). STYLISH would get autocombos but get less damage and options overall. It would be the perfect style to learn about fundamentals, combos and such. While TECHNICAL would be everything we FG players love. For example, if I was designing Type Lumina (which I still am salty about), STYLISH would be current TL gameplay with only 2 bars of Magic Circuit or without Moon Gauge. TECHNICAL would be current TL gameplay without autocombos.

[@Bachiru]

Interesting take, I agree with the BBTAG sentiment even tho lots of people say that BBTAG starts you on the wrong foot with FGs

[@d1splaced800]

I've talked about fighting games with friends who don't play them, and their opinion is mostly the same: that fighting games have no content - basically only one game mode with only one small empty map (with different backgrounds), where you fight one player using characters from a very limited set. And you need to invest tons of time and effort just to be able to play the same thing forever and ever. And from this perspective it looks very depressing. Sure, you can say that "if there isn't enough variety in one fighting game, you can play other fighting games", but if a person doesn't want to play even one game, they hardly would want to play several. And some thoughts about losing: people in general feel much better about it when they can analize their mistakes and formulate a lesson, why they lost and what they can change to not lose again. But in fighting games as a new player you often cannot analize your mistakes. Either because you don't have enough knowledge to comprehend what even happened, or because you just messed inputs and there is nothing to comprehend. In both cases you don't learn anything new, the game just tells you that you suck and should go back to training mode. And you shall go indeed, but that's not exactly what a player wants from a new game.

[@H0m0f1rST]

For me personally as someone who comes from a moba background and only has recently gotten a bit into actually committing to fighting games (GG strive), the input barrier is what is most irritating to me. Like in the whole, compared to other genres, fighting games aren't necassarily harder to play, but the brain to game translation is really beginner unfriendly. When you play an rpg, moba or a shooter, all the mechanics are simple and easy to grasp. The difficulty lies in the detail, the strategy and general fluidity that comes natural when you play alot. Not to speak that you have other people to put up your slack. It's just not fun to many people to sit in the practice range for hours on end to have their character do what their brain wants them to do. And then you go match up ALONE into the most unforgiving, noobstompy veteran environment imaginable. You just feel shit for being bad. Despite all that I finally got a bit invested recently after multiple attempts over the years and who knows, maybe i'll have enough motivation to get to the fun and juicy part of theorycrafting combos n stuff and not biting my nails out trying to properly execute a basic move/combo with more than 50% success rate.

[@Bachiru]

That's a really interesting aspect that I never really considered, many people consider execution core part of fighting games and it's there to enrich the experience and give a sense of reward for learning the game, but admittedly it's a deterrent for many people who are trying to get into fighting games

[@christhechilled]

Fighting games are hard because you gotta have a commitment with said game and be good to have fun. What's the point of playing a fighting game if you're not going to commitment?

[@brightboxawesome2702]

I like guilty Gear strives method of execution and mobility. It gives a lot of visual cues and it feels like the game slows down when you get a hit confirm, cancelling into anything doesn't feel as difficult as SFV. Converting anything in SFV takes me a lot longer to learn that converting in in guilty gear. Also mobility in SFV feels a lot more constrained, I feel trapped because I can't just run up and dash when someone whiffs, as easily.

[@AresGod0fWar]

That’s because in Street Fighter they use a lot of links, and the animation can’t be cancelled with another normal. There are exceptions such as target combos, and moves that chain into themselves. Even for SFV, linking two normals into one another requires a specific timing. I’ve always observed the recovery animations of both the attack and the enemy to help me judge the timing. If nothing comes out you know you’ve input the next normal too early. Games like Guilty Gear, Blazblue, Undernight, all have a system in place where moves chain into another by cancelling their animation. Each game calls it something different, but it’s essentially the same concept. Then, you’ve got Undernight and Melty Blood that lets you do reverse beat where you can make a string safer by ending in an A attack (light). For example, you could do 2A>5B>2C>5A. These games are considered difficult by many, but that goes to show you your knowledge in Strive (Although foreseen as easier) can still be applied to these games, if you haven’t played them.

[@brightboxawesome2702]

Yeah I like the cancelling better than the linking. It just feels more fluid. Otherwise every other system mechanic is not so bad. I also hate charge attacks. Qcf and qcb are pretty simple.

[@eduardoserpa1682]

My first real fighting game was BlazBlue CF in early 2020 (and later DBFZ). I had already dabbled with Street Fighter and NRS games for the past 10-15 years, but links are annoying and those games didn't have anything flashy or cool to grab me, so I mostly played licensed anime games. BlazBlue, on the other hand, had gatlings and fun movement. When in doubt, I can just do ABCD Special and something cool comes out. I can just press the Drive button and something interesting happens. I played a little bit of CF, went back to CT for the story, and I have been hooked into any and all fighting games ever since, kusoge or not (even Street Fighter and Tekken to an extent).

[@Bachiru]

Man of culture for that BB love!

[@xzyvaierragland5893]

I like guilty gear for the online but I always move back to SF5 because ed and Lucia are the only fighting came characters I like. I really struggle with timing motion inputs and for some reason was comfortable with Lucia and Ed didn't have motion inpjtst.

[@Shmidershmax]

""One button to aim, one button to shoot and that's it" lmao he just showed how little he knows about how fps games work

[@Bachiru]

For the majority of people that's all they need to know honestly to start playing. As someone who played the Battlefield series for more than 8 years I'm sure there's more to shooters XD

[@Shmidershmax]

@@Bachiru By that logic all they need to know to play fighting games is the six face buttons for LMH punch and kick and the stick for movement. SF is definitely on the more demanding side of fighting games since the game uses links and the timing can be a little tight, even with the buffer. GG strive is a great example on how people can organically learn fundamentals without being nearly as stressful as SF since every character is guaranteed a string with cS, S, HS, (almost any special move) or cS, 2S, 2HS, (special move). While battlefield isn't as demanding as some games you should still now that there's always more than meets the eye. CSGO, while not my cup of tea, is a very demanding game. Personally I'm having an easier time learning SF5 than CS since there's just too much to learn in CSGO. Just the act of shooting your gun is entire process in of itself

[@d1splaced800]

@@Shmidershmax The point was that most FPS games are easy to learn. And you are trying to say that "no, they are not easy to learn because they are hard to master". There is a difference between basic and advanced knowledge. Knowledge of recoil patterns, for example, isn't basic - even if you don't know them, options available to you are almost the same. You still shoot guns, just with lower accuracy. Ability to consistently do specials, on the other hand, is basic. If you cannot do specials, you are locked out of many options the game has. It doesn't matter for a new player that CSGO would take more time and effort to master than, lets say, GG Strive. What matters is that a new player probably needs less than an hour to get basic understanding of what's going on in CSGO and how to play it. And then the player can start to learn the game in depth and to have fun. Meanwhile a person who has never played fighting games will need to spend tens of hours before he or she fully comprehends essential mechanics and learns to reliably do something besides fS-HS and a projectile special.

[@Shmidershmax]

@@d1splaced800 I used GG strive because it's very easy to pick up and learn basic strings letting you get into the meat of the FG genre a lot faster. CSGO is the equivalent of SF in FPS terms cause It's not easy to just pick up and learn. Basic actions require a lot more effort than most games basically making it impossible for most casual players to bother figuring it out. If GG strive is any indication, FGs don't need to be needlessly complicated to be fun without having to give away free wins. The fact that everything is very easy to do and every combo isn't prohibitively hard or need perfect timing lets you get right into fundamentals

[@d1splaced800]

@@Shmidershmax Steam statistics show that last month CSGO had 563k simultaneously playing people on average, with a peak of more than one million. It's difficult to believe that all these people are hardcore players.

[@danieljeje1353]

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