Are Line Arrays Better?

[@acousticbutler]

Why has it taken 30 years for someone to explain them like this?

[@DaveRat]

Well I actually did this video 4 years ago so maybe it only took 26 as this is kind of a tightened up version of it. But yes sometimes the simplest explanations are the hardest to figure out. For me this all came out of the concept I'm wondering why all the line arrays are vertical and why people don't put them on their sides horizontally. And to some degree you can put them on their sides when you do something like a constant curvature array like the Lacoustics arc system. But if you're going to create a true line array they don't sound good horizontally and I started looking at why. Also this imbalance between all the die-hard point source people saying that Lina rays don't measure well and point source is measure better but quite often the line arrays sound better and measure worse. Why is that? Then I started wondering why our stereo speakers set on the left and right and why can't we just put one down low and another one up high? And just like stereo speakers having horizontal width between them gives us beautiful stereo imaging, placing stereo speakers one above the other doesn't sound interesting or cool at all. We lose all the imaging. And so I started paying attention to our perceptiveness of horizontal versus vertical. And doing tests on that working my way backwards to realizing that the beauty of line arrays is a pile all the problems up where we can't hear them as easily or very well

[@acousticbutler]

@@DaveRat I thought you looked young. Still 30 years for me

[@cdwhiley]

👽 is why

[@DaveRat]

Ha! Well, I'm 62 now and thank you! Makes me happy to bring info

[@DaveRat]

True

[@prashanthb6521]

Thanks for this simple explanation sir. I love to work in the sound field but no time anymore.

[@DaveRat]

👍🤙👍

[@erniesanders3724]

The Master speaks. As usual you explain everything so simple and straightforward. Thank you for sharing this with us.

[@DaveRat]

🤙👍🤙

[@zambotv8150]

Weight and trucking as well Dave.... I still love the look of old monster PA systems

[@DaveRat]

👍🤙👍🎛️🔊

[@hanseich]

Great explanation and great visualisation. A properly designed linearray puts the drivers within 1/4 wavelength of the drivers lowest frequency, so they couple properly. (you know that off course). That’s why the Adamson line arrays (I presume L-Acousyics and any other properly designed line array as well) have metal plates in the areas of the high end horns, as two layers of plywood (the regular speaker enclosure material) would be thicker than 1/4 wavelength.

[@DaveRat]

Yeah but actually the max spacing distances is dictated by the wavelength of the highest frequency that will be reproduced by the drivers being arrayed. The lowest freq is easy, it's the shorter wavelength of the higher frequencies that can often be the challenge especially for HF drivers

[@The_Tarmaster]

Very interesting. Thank you

[@DaveRat]

👍🤙👍

[@Edwin-van-der-Putten]

Nice one, Dave! And really thanks for once again making it clear what something means in audo, with a practical explaining! You're great!

[@DaveRat]

👍🤙👍

[@JoshuaCharles706]

Dave you are a genius!! I finally understand this concept!

[@DaveRat]

Awesome!!

[@coreygalletlydrums77]

Besides being the best audio person I’ve ever heard you might be the best video editor I’ve ever seen

[@DaveRat]

Thank you though my video editing skills are pretty rough this was a cleanup of an old video that I tried to make more concise and I'm glad it's working

[@NameNaameNameeNaamee]

In my experience, line arrays simply offer a more consistent sound for more people for the very reasons mentioned here. There might be point source based systems that sound nicer in the sweetspot, but if you build an average of all seats, a line array will offer a better experience over all, and in return what people hear will generally be closer to our mix, making our job easier as a result. Also, problematic frequencies or impulse responses tend to be easier to address, since a line array won't create so many modes and phase issues, less audio pollution so to say. Add to that the possibilities of modern system design, being able to model the room and "cut out" reflective surfaces, compensate for humidity and temperature etc., and its a package that punches way over what was possible decades ago. I am writing this being an FOH operator only. I have very limited knowledge of actual system design. It's just what I found and what rhyme I made of it during countless of concerts.

[@haycrossaudio5474]

Great demo. Fantastic

[@DaveRat]

Super cool and thank you

[@peniku8]

I'd like to add that line array speakers have a much narrower vertical coverage than typical point source loudspeakers, so you're hearing fewer individual loudspeakers where you stand, which reduces the comb filtering you might experience. And you forgot about the metalheads. Stand at your position and headbang=solely vertical movement! :D

[@DaveRat]

Yes the metal heads! Though the only moving their heads a few inches and not getting their ears closer and farther from the speakers like you are when you turn your head side to side. Or at least not too much unless you're really headbanging with authority

[@image66media]

That was a brilliant demonstration and explanation. Obviously, line arrays have tremendous benefit for covering distances, but the comb filtering in the horizontal plane is one consideration we really don’t give much weight to in selecting a line-array. I think it’s more of a side benefit than the main purpose though. My usage of point-source speakers is in the same coverage method as line-arrays, so for me, a line-array isn’t a specific value-add. However, my setups were always done with the overlaps in non-listening areas, like aisles. I devoured the “Sound System Engineering” book by Don and Carolyn Davis, and that explored this concept in great detain.

[@DaveRat]

Excellent and yes use the right tool for the job and understanding the tools helps make that decision

[@rossstephenson3298]

Hey Dave, this is awesome content and I have watched your longer version of this video previously. No one explains these concepts better than you and I agree with 99% of what you have said in this video. You're a true legend. Honest. However I feel like when comparing the two systems you are referring to very old school style of point source systems that do not have processes and R+D of now a days like analogue time aligning, phase correction etc. I would love for you to make a video on the new Point source systems we are currently using in todays time (We are huge KV2 users in Perth, Western Australia) that in most regards out--perform line arrays for 95% of times when you would use line array vs point source. I agree that line arrays have their benefits for specific applications, but in my eyes, line array has always been about making the industry money (more boxes = more money but doesn't necessarily mean better sound) and in my eyes, this industry should always try and focus on a better sound rather than a better pay check. Let me know if you have any thoughts, and as always thanks for making such amazing videos for us all to watch!

[@DaveRat]

Hmm, I think line arrays are popular because the are scalable and adapt well for coverage of a wide variety of venues. There are cool systems like kv2 , Danley, funktion1 and such and they can work well for low to mid level venue sizes. Do you know of any world wide touring artists that do not use line array? I love all types of sound systems and the differences and advantages and challenges they each have. Also, point source in its truest form has no array. One driver, or one driver for each few band. As soon as you have more than one, you have an array. If the drivers are vertical or horizontally placed, you have a line array, vertical or horizontal. Most systems are so e version of a line array mixed with point mixed with splay

[@josiahberry8743]

I think this is why Danley makes their massive Jericho boxes so just 1 per side is needed and then hang their SH series boxes under them as down fills. That way, they aren’t stacking boxes in the horizontal domain.

[@martinmarasco4403]

Great explanation. So what about line array boxes that contain dual woofers?

[@DaveRat]

Great question. Horizontally spaced sound sources begin to create issues when the distance between them is equal to or greater than 1/4 wavelength of the highest frequency being reproduced by those sound sources. You can typically space sources horizontally up to 1/2 of a wavelength and they become directional with cancellation off to the side but don't really create comb filtering issues until you go a bit greater than that and get up to a full wavelength or so. So for woofers you can space them quite a distance apart as long as they're not crossed over too high For the mid-range they need to be closer together but still can be spaced a bit apart And for tweeters and high frequencies they have to be so close together that horizontal spacing of separate drivers tends to be a challenge that causes issues unless they are touching

[@lightaces]

Fun fact; the Grateful Dead tried to cover a venue with one speaker and a giant horn under the stage. It didn’t get past sound check, as it almost shook the stage apart. Or so one of their sound guys explained to me he was explaining The Wall of Sound to us in my live sound class at Berklee. He did half a tour as one of the techs for the Wall of Sound, and when he expressed doubts his first day, the lead sound guy set him at the front of the stage with a dB meter, and had him watch it as he walked away from the stage. I’ve still never heard a show on a line array which sounded good to me, though. Efficiency aside, I don’t like them.

[@SoCalxSurfs]

I agree. Line arrays with the combination of class d amplifiers have made concerts and events less enjoyable and even fatiguing for me.

[@DaveRat]

Interesting. When I started going to concerts back in the late '70s and my first big concert was led Zeppelin song remains the same tour, and saw the who and Black Sabbath. Concerts sound pure crap. The shit sound of concerts is what inspired me to get into the sound rental business. " why can't a pa sound like a giant studio monitor" was the question I pondered Modern systems sound amazing! Huge beautiful stereo imaging, clean clear power, volume consultant over distance. I was at US festival 83 and wow was that junk sound. Now I provide sound for Coachella and some of the engineers coming through mix so clean and clear it gives goose bumps. Roger Waters Coachella, radiohead, wow! So good. Class d amps are not an issue, all they do is give you more power per pound and cubic foot. I've done some vids in that as well. Those old pa's are only missed in distorted memories. I still have some old systems. Fire them up and listen and yeah, yuck!

[@walthaus]

​@@DaveRat Yeah, this is indeed very interesting. maybe you're right about distorted memories, wouldn't surprise me one bit. Plus I think you're referring to really big shows as opposed to smaller venues so maybe that comes into play as well. I myself find myself solidly in the "old PAs sounded better" camp. I've stopped going to Rock shows altogether when line arrays and digital consoles became the norm. That plus the disappearance of proper backlines where I can hear and locate the instruments and the PA does what it was designed to do: reinforce sound that can't be heard on it's own. Like Steve Gadd said in that video of his soundcheck "It has to come from the bandstand" When I see guitar-players with practice amps for rigs I know it's not going sound good. For awhile I hung on, believing it was just a fluke but every show had "that sound" There's just something inherently cold and grating about those systems to my ears and the over-use of on-board processing has killed it off for good, but that's a separate issue. BTW, I think I can hear what I believe to be superior live sound on old live footage, Springsteen's Thrill Hill Vault comes to mind. But maybe it's just nostalgia, either way, I enjoy conversations about this issue.🙂

[@lightaces]

@@DaveRat The peak for me was early 90's to very early aughts. Point source clusters and delays will always be my preference. They are inefficient, time consuming to setup, and quite finicky to adjust, but when right, they sound great. It could just be the shows I've been too, but there is a very consistent peak in the mid-range, I suspect right around a cross over frequency, which ALWAYS sounds too harsh to me. Peter Gabriel's last tour was the first one with a line array where it didn't distract me.

[@alakovideo]

@@walthaus That's super interesting, Dave has done some videos about de-correlating multiple speakers even further by sending different signals into different speakers, and things like using two different mics on two different parts of a guitar cab panned, etc. to reduce comb filtering and other cancellations. I definitely think with smaller venues, there are still issues even with line arrays and when the norm was to crank guitar/bass cabs and reinforce sounds like drums, keys and vocals, there was more complexity in how the sound came together and interacted with the room. For larger p.a, it'd be cool to have something like a greater number of shorter and more powerful line arrays that could be hung across the top of the stage, that could be dedicated for different sound sources, as opposed to trying to duplicate mono signals and pan them in a stereo configuration. They did that with the double hung p.a at coachella, now that the arrays are hung higher than ever it'd be pretty cool to try something like this as a possible solution.

[@skyrin_]

We need more simple and easy to understand education like this! Haven't been too long in the industry but I hate it when small(er) venues insists to install massive line arrays. I get it; it looks cool. But more often than not they basically ground stack them up on top of massive subs with little to no splay at all, in a low ceiling totally flat room, which to me makes no sense at all.

[@DaveRat]

The benefits of line arrays are greatly diminished in smaller rooms except if keeping sound off of a highly reflective ceiling is a priority, then lines in smaller rooms can be helpful.

[@MyFatherLoves]

My favorite version of a multi-driver system is still Danley Sound Labs. I've heard and mixed incredible line arrays. I usually mix on a fairly large line array regularly that was tuned by the dude who designed the Aardvark for Prince. I can't remember his name for the life of me. I think he works for Harmon now? We call him the Wizard and we've called him that so often that I can't remember his name now. Whoops. Point is, I've heard a lot of very well designed and integrated line array. My favorite system that I've ever heard was a DSL system. Unbelievable spatial information and clarity. It's truly likely listening to a pair of excellent near-field studio monitors.

[@DaveRat]

Definitely some good sounding systems of all types out there. Understanding the advantages that each type of system inherently has helps one make the best choice for the application

[@MyFatherLoves]

@@DaveRat Indeed! They're definitely more of a surgical(?) install. Not feasible for a touring system. Great for specific installs.

[@josiahberry8743]

I’m a Danley user and I agree. L Acoustics is the only line array I can even stand now. They do it better than anyone. Still haven’t heard a Meyer rig yet though.

[@johnmcquay82]

​@@josiahberry8743 I use an L'Acoustics system as a house tech at a venue. It's a phenomenal system, though I far prefer the Martin Audio Line Arrays. I haven't heard Meyer; not many folks tour with them in England.

[@josiahberry8743]

@@johnmcquay82 thanks for the feedback! Martin does make good stuff. I have witnessed 24 L Acoustics KS28 dual 18” subs destroy a PK rig that used 48 gravity dual 18” subs.

[@jakubpodesva9802]

Fantastic explanation Dave, thank you! Btw.: I am awaiting some SoundTools stuff for being installed in our venue - some WallCat8's and some CatTails as well, great idea, can't wait to try them out :)

[@DaveRat]

Super cool let me know how the sound tool stuff works out!

[@marstedt]

How are those boxes put together? They look unusual. Great video and demonstration, thank you!

[@DaveRat]

They're pretty simple I just did some cuts into the corner pieces to make them like extruded and glued in little atheist wood panels to the side and routed out some end caps the speaker and connector

[@marstedt]

@@DaveRat Neat, thanks for the info and keep up the great work. Your insights are fantastic.

[@samollari3973]

Did you use Adobe Podcast Enhance or something when you're talking? I hear some of the weird resynthesis artifacts of it being pushed a little too hard

[@rowyn-1323]

I picked up on the same thing hahah!

[@DaveRat]

This is a re release and the audio in the original was not very good. I used Adobe premiere audio enhance. And yes, def can hear the processing but for me, clarity and and info was more important than audio artifacts

[@johnhaggas3244]

hello i just watched a video you did about your 120.000 watt relaxation and came to your channel to post this .wow ime loving this vid ive worked alot of gigs over the last 20 years but on the security side of it .however i am very interested in the logistics of all the other parts of a festival ,ime also 3d printing a version of the smartstage 180 in 1:14 scale to go with an rc truck .could you or would it be possible to do a line array speaker system that works and truss system to go around a pc desktop monitor as i think that would look cool

[@DaveRat]

That would be fun to do.

[@mickduprez9598]

makes perfect sense, thanks! So, just spit balling here. In a horizontal setup almost half of your spl is lost to the ground (by laying a vertical array on its side, half the projected sound waves are lost or bounce off the ground causing other issues like cancellation) whereas in a vertical array the spl is concentrated (i.e. added together at the source) so you get good spl and therefore coverage horizontally(?)...

[@DaveRat]

Vertical line arrays definitely have much better control over vertical dispersion. This can reduce the amount of unwanted sound hitting the ceiling which will improve the quality of sound by reducing reverberation. Pointing downward into the coverage area is necessary for coverage regardless of the system type. Whenever you have more than one driver recreating the same audio content like two side by side boxes or two boxes on top of each other You're going to introduce some sort of interactions that tend to be less than desirable. The closer the drivers are together and the more controlled they're dispersion the less that interaction is an issue. But even with a perfect horizontal line array that was made let's say with a long solid ribbon of full rain sound, if you turn your head left and right you're moving one ear closer and one ear farther from it, this messes with your brain and does not sound good to us. With a vertical line array The issue of turning your head side to side so that it gets closer and farther from the source is all but eliminated. A single point source like a home Hi-Fi box naturally does this and sounds good, a vertical line array is a way of getting more speakers and more energy to cover larger spaces without creating that horizontal issue. Any system design that uses multiple speakers recreating the same sound arrayed horizontally will be prone to having this horizontal issue if there are overlaps in the coverage of the side to side boxes. This is why for line arrays you can point a bunch of boxes at the audience and have them very tightly arrayed. But for horizontal arrays you'll always see the boxes splayed at fairly significant angles to try and minimize people hearing more than one box wide from any point in space

[@dupoirier5041]

Thanks a lot Dave !

[@DaveRat]

👍🤙👍

[@mvilla36]

Great video, Dave thank you

[@DaveRat]

🤙👍🤙

[@kwamesha3477]

Thanks for this simple analysis Dave. My question is: what is the benefit of flying point source speakers in concert/festival situations?

[@DaveRat]

You'll hardly ever see points or systems for festival or large concert situations anymore. They just don't offer enough control. I don't know of any major tours that tour with points for systems. There are a few festivals primarily in the EDM market that embrace the point source for some of the stages and can sound quite good. The points are systems just don't have the ability to really fine tune the coverage and volume over distance advantages of line arrays. I did another video on line array versus point source subwoofers that may be of interest to you

[@kwamesha3477]

@@DaveRat Thanks. I’m asking because I have some EAW point source speakers that have fly braces and I was looking to use them in a not so large event (about 1,200-1,500 people).

[@DaveRat]

Yeah if the budget is low and the gear is there using point source boxes can be a good choice taking into account all the factors

[@dupoirier5041]

I love your explaination

[@DaveRat]

🤙👍🤙

[@DanielEdwards-]

I think a lot of sound professionals, particularly snobby ones that think they know everything (I’m sure you’ve met your fair share!) often don’t entirely understand how line arrays work, and often don’t realising a lot of what live sound work is, is compromise. I remind engineers that walk from the back to the front of a venue that any phasing anomalies they hear is coming from the vertical axis, and what they perceive is the vertical shift from one array box to the next. And that’s before you factor in the left and right arrays interfering with each other.

[@DaveRat]

And vertically you always have floor reflections and often ceiling as well. Vertical is a natural mess. Good thing our ears don't hear the vert issues as well as we hear the horizontal ones

[@IrenESorius]

I would say that most line arrays Iw heard sounded way "better" than the 4 complete, EV MT4 systems, we had in the 1990,s, when we were out touring on all sorts of biker events,, and we had no forklifts etc. All where hauled by hand,, 🤪. I and the drummer where the only two that where strong enough to lift up and down the MT4 top,s, on top of the subs,, 16 x ca170kg every f,,kn venue. My back still hurts. 😥(Not to talk about rack-cases full of Crest Audio 10001,s and 9001,s 😬. We had wheels on them at least. ) Btw, your totaly right about Globen and its chaos acoustics. What a mess,, 🤡. Cheers friend,, 🍻😎🤘‍‍

[@DaveRat]

Agreed

[@shangomensy7403]

thanks you for share this, but i was think that our perception is more accurate in vertical domain than a horizontal.would you have some paper about it that i can read sir??? well done for that, it's always a pleasure to learn something from you.

[@DaveRat]

Our ears determine location by the arrival time differences and for a sound source that is equally distant from both of our ears or close to equidistant arrival time is very similar. As we turn our head we alter the distance between our ears and the source with one ear getting farther and one ear getting closer and that allows us to locate. Or of a source moves horizontally again it gets closer to one ear and then farther from the other and allows us to locate. Another way to look at it is the test it yourself. Try taking your stereo speakers and putting one on the floor and one high on a shelf and see how wonderful the stereo imaging is. All of our stereo speakers are mounted side to side because that optimizes the differential between them and makes the sound enjoyable. If we hear better vertically then stacking the speakers vertically for stereos would be more desirable

[@shangomensy7403]

@@DaveRat I understand thank you, however the time difference between our two ears compared to an off-axis source i.e. coming from one side of the stereo image being around 0.67ms and 50ms doesn't it mean that too little influence on our perception?

[@DaveRat]

You can easily do a test and determine for yourself by hooking up a tone or music to a digital console and incrementally delaying one year versus the other. I have found it's fairly easy to hear well beyond 0.1 milliseconds of offset from one ear to the other end headphones. Maybe give this video a watch kzbin.info/www/bejne/iaPSqaiCoN2sj5Isi=5g9Dq90-a9pK1eAZ

[@johnlemak4680]

Have you / will you ever use Danley Jericho?

[@DaveRat]

I don't yet have a use for a really loud sound source that does not have scalable pattern control. But if an application arrives, will consider it. Getting sound closer to people and using multiple smaller sources vs having fewer but really loud sound sources tends to be preferable That said, there are applications where distances, logistics and other factors create a scenario where using a really loud sound source that is farther away may be a desirable solution

[@mdhazeldine]

This does make sense, but if you're in a situation where it's a choice between 2 point source speakers, left and right, and 2 line arrays, left and right, there's not going to be much difference horizontally, right? In my view the advantage then is that you can cover more distance, front to back by adjusting the angles and power to each speaker so that you don't blast the front rows, while still throwing to the back and not needing delay speakers.

[@DaveRat]

Line arrays can be beneficial for front to back volume consistency while using multiple identical or similar boxes. To do something similar with point source boxes, you would need a variety of box designs ranging from short throw to long throw that are somewhat tailored to the venue and distances.

[@mdhazeldine]

@@DaveRat Or have a series of delays. Which introduce their own problems.

[@DaveRat]

👍🤙👍

[@sisterpete]

For some odd reason in the last several years far too many people have got the mentality that line arrays are "God's gift to man". I see them everywhere but unfortunately they don't belong in probably 75% of those places and the customer has done nothing more than water a bunch of money and many times made the sound worse. I'm an installer and would venture to say that more often than not a good point source is what the room needs. Both designs come with their own set of problems as well as good points, so it's very important to be knowledgeable enough to put in what's best for the room. Let me add... I am not a "point source only" guy, i use both designs. I just see many companies and line arrays are now so they will do. For instance, I can't tell you how many times I've seen a traditional style church building, 40' wide and 40' peak, you know the room, as tall as it is wide, and someone wants to hang a line array. A single point source (the right one obviously) would do nicely. Ran into it again here while back and the price was 10x my point source bid and I'm far from inexpensive on my labor. We did the job and every seat in the house is covered with smooth uniform sound. Bidding a large room right now and it needs 4 hangs of 7 boxes each with 2 delay lines as well. So yeah, i do line array when it's needed. Just my 2 cents Blessings

[@DaveRat]

Agreed, proper tool for the job. Loving lineries or loving point sources and not liking the other is like loving open-end wrenches and hating socket wrenches. Points or systems are kind of like open-end wrenches Will you grab the right wrench and use it on the right size bolt. Line arrays are more like socket wrench sets where you can bring the set with you and use it on a wide variety of bolts and not have to carry a separate wrench handle for every single bolt like you would with an open end wrench. For permanent installs and smaller spaces point sources are wonderful solutions. For complex coverage areas and larger spaces or touring artists, a line array tends to be the better tool for the job. I don't think there's a single touring artist doing worldwide tours or large venues that uses anything besides a line array at this point. And for home Hi-Fi and recording studios using point source systems or systems that are primarily point source but maybe use multiple lower mid drivers in a line array configuration tend to be the way to go. That said I'm involved with an installation in a house of worship that has highly reflective surfaces everywhere and keeping sound off of those reflective surfaces is critical. And the solution chosen was the Kobra system made by K-array. And the one meter long speakers do an excellent job of focusing the sound into the listing area and the vertical control along with minimal cabinet depths allow for a very visually appealing solution that functions extremely well. To try and recreate this with a point source system would require horns that have more depth to them and would offer less vertical control and be much less visually appealing. As these speakers need to mount flush against the wall and not distract from the visual aesthetics.

[@FOHGeek]

Both line arrays and point source systems have their favorable scenes and methods of application. Line array speakers need to be hung up at a certain height and splayed in specific angles to ensure an even coverage pattern. In compact venues with low ceilings like live-houses, small bars and clubs, conference rooms etc. deploying a pile of line array speakers from the ground to the rooftop won't necessarily lead to better acoustic result than rigging up a pair of 15-inch point source cabinets.

[@DaveRat]

Agreed on using the right tool for the job and also, systems like the L-aacoustics Syva do an amazing job for line array in smaller spaces. Keeping sound off the ceiling and minimizing wall reflections is very beneficial. Selecting a system that only puts sound whate ya want it is very important if the room has reflective surfaces

[@DavidMoonWainwright]

Curious your thoughts on Danley Speakers?

[@tomoh1]

Aside from the individual listener, the crowd overall tends to be arranged horizontally rather than having listeners stacked on top of each other!

[@DaveRat]

Agreed although there are venues with a lot of balconies in vertical height to them a well-designed line array will keep the entire audience in quality coverage areas and minimize people with bad sounding overlaps

[@DownsAster101]

have you ever worked with danley sound labs?

[@DaveRat]

I have and also Danley has brought speakers to our shop to do a demo as well. Cool loud stuff. Did not find the gear I have heard to be very HiFi sounding but very good with dynamics. The three main reasons we don't really consider it for our rental inventory is 1) modularity. Line arrays are easy to scale larger and smaller while using multiples of the same box. 2) Coverage control For touring and festivals, being able dial in coverage by changing angles rather than having to deploy a multitude of long, medium and short throw boxes is a huge plus 3) demand and availability. To the best of my knowledge there are no major touring artists carrying point sources systems, pretty much for the reasons above. So as a rental company that supplies large festivals and tours, having one of the most demanded systems is beneficial. My company owns about 800 l-Acoustics boxes. Also, when I was touring as a sound engineer, world wide sonic consistency was an important goal. Specifying a system that I could not get on all 6 continents (I don't think any tours fo o continent 7) was important. I do not think there is the same large format point source system available world wide in all the touring markets like there is for L-acoustics, D&B, Meyer and JBL line arrays.

[@williamweiss6128]

Whatever works. Sound Human!!

[@DaveRat]

🤙👍🤙

[@markd6777]

nice demo

[@DaveRat]

👍🤙👍

[@quasard4584]

Hi Dave, love this explaination, but isn't a Line Array a array of line-sources ? I mean line-sources as Christian Heil invented with the DOSC (cylindrical soudwave diffuser, Diffuseur d'Onde Sonore Cylindrique in french) ? When stack on top of each over, line sources must have a different behavior than a stack of point sources with spherical soundwave form

[@DaveRat]

I wouldn't say Christian invented lineries as they existed long before. Taking a bunch of regular cone speakers and stacking them up close to each other will form an excellent line array. The challenge with high performance line arrays is the high frequencies. It's very difficult to get multiple high frequency drivers to couple together and minimize overlap such that those multitude of sources act as a single line source. Christian came up with an ingenious way to take a compression drivers dome shaped diaphragm and output and using the dusk wave and using the dosc wave guide, convert that somewhat cylindrical output into a phase coherent line shaped output. Once you have the output in a line shape either through a creative waveguide or by using ribbon speakers, you can then come by and a multitude of those to form a larger line source. With lower frequencies the wavelengths are longer so combining multiple drivers is much easier. One excellent example that is subwoofers. Delayed arc systems and other subwoofer arrays often take the form of horizontal line arrays. And to achieve that all we have to do is put a bunch of subs next to each other and either time them or shape them to get the coverage we desire

[@quasard4584]

@@DaveRat Thank you very much for your reply, I confused those notions. It became all clear when you bring up the subwoofers ! The DOSC guide is a nice trick for the highs but there are over ways to obtain a line source in general. Thx again !

[@DaveRat]

@quasard4584 🤙👍🤙

[@NealMiskinMusic]

Line arrays seem to always come with some DSP, where grid arrays tend to require less DSP if any at all. I'm curious how the DSP affects the sound. Is a line array with all the DSP bypassed still better than a grid array? Can you use DSP to make a grid array sound better in the same way as we do with line arrays?

[@DaveRat]

Not sure if that's entirely accurate. I think Lina Ray's became popular after DSP was fully accepted so there aren't really line arrays that were released before DSP except perhaps the shure Vocal Master line arrays from 40 years ago or more. DSP really caught on when Meyer sound release the MSL3 which was a horizontal displayed system. Then it propagated out to just about all major sound systems. But if you look at the entire line from D&B or L-acoustics or JBL, they have processing on the line arrays and the point source boxes and splayable boxes. My experience is that horn loaded boxes need more EQ then non-horn loaded boxes. What is really temperamental for line array boxes is the angles between them. Unlike the old throw and Go displayable boxes extremely tiny changes in the vertical spacing can make significant differences due to how narrow their vertical dispersion is of each box

[@ChrisGoosman]

I'm still a student of all this, and I'm not sure how to articulate this correctly, but I've heard line arrays and point source systems in the same rooms (in this case, two theatres, one 640 cap, the other 1600 cap) and in both those cases I felt that the point source systems sounded significantly better than the line arrays that I heard, but in larger venues I've heard line arrays that sound great! Can there really be that much of a difference in the system with 100 degree of horizontal coverage vs say 90 degrees of horizontal coverage? What else might be at play here? As a contrast, the main theatre I work in (~300 cap) has a line array system that we just rehung (two hangs became four hangs) to provide some better coverage (we calculated this new coverage, I don't think the previous person really calculated the coverage) and it sounds good to me, but it's at least half the depth, and about the same width as both the above mentioned theatres.

[@DaveRat]

There are so many variables but typically using less sound sources that reproduce the exact same signal will sound better than more sound sources reproducing the same signal. So that leans everything towards point sources. But point sources have issues with coverage and volume consistency over distances. And you almost would have to design a point source specifically for each venue to optimize and still not do as well as the flexibility and control that line arrays can offer. In smaller venues point sources tend to be the way to go. For larger spaces the control of line arrays tends to offer significant advantages. And you see this with home Hi-Fi. Home Hi-Fi tend to be point source based and large concerts tend to be line array based.

[@doougle]

The whole reason I'm a sound guy is my fist was the right width to space out KF850s back in the stacking PA days 😂

[@DaveRat]

🔊👍🔊👍🔊🤙🔊

[@kevinpetit9886]

Great Video . 😃👍♥️

[@DaveRat]

👍🤙👍

[@twosons5290]

A line array is a tool to do a job. Like a hammer or a screwdriver. You don’t use a screwdriver to hammer a nail. Not better or worse. Is it the right tool for the job?

[@DaveRat]

Exactly and knowing how the assets and issues and advantages of the various tool types helps us make the best decision on which tool to use

[@ranna.]

Sir, What are your thoughts on KV2 Audio Point source speakers?

[@Arlo360-Official]

I have that exact Sony stereo microphone.

[@DaveRat]

👍🤙👍

[@videyo098]

What about the human factor of not hearing phsse cancellations annywhere near as prolifically as a microphone hears and records phase cancellations? How big a problem on 1 to 10 is comb filtering to the human dual input ear-brain organic DSP decoder system compared to the rudamentary single point diaphragm to electrical energy system?

[@DaveRat]

I think that exactly relates to what am trying to demo in the vid. A measurement mic has no idea of whether the sound from two sources is from 2 sources side by side or one above the other and will give exactly the the same measurements with all other factors being the same . But to our ears, side by side sources sound very different than stacked sources. Or looked at another way, if left right sources sounded the same or were equally interesting to listen to as up down sources, then we could put our stereo speakers for our home hifi, one above the other or one left and one right and the sound would be equally enjoyable. But... Try that and see how it works for ya

[@videyo098]

@DaveRat thanks for the reply Dave, although it kinda shoots passed the point I was putting forward for discussion. My question is, how big of a problem on 1 to 10 is comb filtering to the human ear? Much like yourself I like to play around with things and try stuff out. At an outdoor festival I took 12 * point source 90 degree by 40 degree stage monitors and lined them up across the front of the stage. Horizontally. With the 90 degree angle also in the same Horizontal plane. This should have presented the worst possible comb filtering example. Under critical listening and walking tests it sounded fantastic. There was no glaringly obvious swooshing comb filtering sound (the likes of which you'd 'hear' through a microphones recording) and no particularly audible colourations or issues with the sound of this makeshift Horizontal array. You could have certainly done a gig with the sound it was creating and not one member of the audience would have complained. It makes me question why we are always chasing perfect phase, when it doesn't seem to be such a mountain of an issue such that it would compromise the quality of the audio to such a degree that it would be noticeable and problem enough to stop a gig. Why don't you give that a try? It's kinda cool! 😉 Or maybe next time you're in front of a big vertical line array, tilt your head 90 degrees like (an inquisitive puppy) so your ears now run top to bottom in line with the array...does the sound suddenly diminish in quality when you do this?

[@drumtor5482]

Isn’t the wave front on a LA system flat ? And that inducing only 3dB of attenuation by doubling distance ? I thought it was thé only réal benefit.

[@DaveRat]

I don't think there is actually such thing as a cylindrical wave front or flat wave fronts That said, line arrays can have extremely well controlled vertical dispersion and by focusing more energy at the farther coverage areas and less energy closer coverage areas, one can reduce the differential between the far and near coverage areas. Maybe check out the vid I did on point source vs line array subwoofers where I cover that topic.

[@NNokia-jz6jb]

So we got array, an other type of array and the old fashioned stack?

[@peterji4777]

I think the earliest line arrays started with humans. In a choir, it’s essentially a bunch of line arrays.

[@DaveRat]

Interesting though line arrays work by having multiple drivers vertically oriented with each of the drivers recreating exactly the same signal. If you send a different signal to each of the drivers, line array theory does not work and you lose the ability to have vertical control over the signal coverage. A group of people singing even if they're singing exactly the same thing will not give you the summation and cancellations necessary to gain dispersion control. The advantages and issues with line arrays and point source arrays is related to a correlated sound being sent to multiple sound sources. Different people singing and different instruments or the same instrument played by different people presents de correlated sound, and de-correlated sounds do not interact in ways that offer dispersion control. Maybe do a search for videos I've done on correlated versus de correlated sound and I've done some demos as well

[@johnwalker8952]

Isn't that mic in the speaker's near field?

[@lcruz2783]

Sir, what a good lone arrays for beginner DJ or something for a small event from 100 to 500 people max. That is not too expensive?

[@DaveRat]

Hmmm, well, for smaller gigs, the long distance throw advantages of line arrays are less useful. And cost and complexity of line arrays tends to be higher. Also, the longer the line array the better they work down to lower frequencies. That said there are some cool small format on arrays from RCF, JBL, And there are a lot of stick type speakers with whole bunch of two and two 3-in or 4-in drivers that do quite well for line arrays in smaller venues.

[@gentlemanbirdlake]

Are there examples of anyone doing multi-bespoke-point-mixes in a large format?

[@DaveRat]

Not really that I know of. There are a few EDM festivals that have some point source systems but for the most All major tours use line arrays as far as I know

[@walthaus]

Great video but I have a question about this. First we listen to a single speaker and you mention the need to increase horizontal dispersion.. So you add additional speakers arranged across the horizontal plane and demonstrate the interactions between them by rotating them against the "on-axis" of the mic. After flipping the stack to a vertical plane you demonstrate the same issues that now exist in the vertical plane. So far so good. Where i get lost is when you show the horizontal coverage of the array, supposedly free of these interactions, by moving the mic across the horizontal plane but also rotating the mics' axis to always be "on" in relation to the array. If you would have rotated the array in relation to the mic ( as you did with the single speaker at the beginning) wouldn't that have revealed the same issues regarding horizontal dispersion that made you add a second speaker at the onset of this demonstration? What am I missing.

[@djjazzyjeff1232]

In real world scenarios my experience is the speakers are designed with a large width but extremely narrow height of dispersion. This maximizes the coverage horizontally but also minimizes the vertical coverage. If you look at a simple cheap “line array” speaker like the old QSC KLA12, has a horizontal of 90 and vertical of 18. Some have even wider horizontal and narrower vertical. It varies from box to box. I hope this was somehow helpful to what (i think) you are asking

[@russellhltn1396]

In physics, I learned that a vertical line source will project better - less dispersion vertically, but good dispersion horizontally.

[@DaveRat]

True. But also very and horiz line source are actually the same. And a wall is the same as the ground. And sound is not impacted by the direction of gravity So in a cube room with very or horiz line source, they are identical to a measurement mic room center Yet a line source the is very with human ears horizontally offset will sound vetter

[@peters7949]

Sadly while line arrays give far more control over sound level throughout the venue, integrating the array with the sub (bass) speakers is always a problem. Every system I have heard has a lack of low mid & no definition in the LF just boom, and I have heard a lot of the best and largest systems having worked at Glastonbury and other large festivals, from just before they were introduced until a few years back.

[@DaveRat]

Interesting. Especially considering that a high percentage of sub arrays are horizontal line arrays. Line array subs with line array mains actually should not have the issues of mixing non line array mains with line array subs. Non line array subs can be cool but they have all the interference issues that non line array multi ox mains have. Curious to know any major tours or large festival stages you know of that are not using line arrays.

[@andysummersthxcinemaandmyc7748]

again dave makes sense of the illogical with logic sense , i'm aware of below sound , below surround is not yet a discrete sound format thou can be done other ways , i have no time waiting on dolby labs with there flawed atmos that claims to be 3d when its not thanks

[@DaveRat]

👍🤙🤙

[@tudorgheorghe4532]

Hi Dave ! The observation are great but your point is just a opinion not a fact.The reason we are prone to lateral point perception ( because that's happened around our senses callled perception is our body ear location ,pavilions orientation and shape overall that's how God create us.But there is a catch here that meaning near field perception is create by non liniar sources as well with a comb of all kind of interactions around our hearing senses.Yeap we are kind of blind on certain spots because we develop a blank space on our brain regarding other perceptions.In fact we could die or experience severe emotions if we perceve at higher age other stuff because we can not mentally explain infrasounds or psiho acoustics! There are hardly brands that's promote real deal line array speaker concepts and management ! Is there better ? In what sense ? To me there suite other type of radiation events !😊

[@DaveRat]

Hmmm, ok, so if it's not a fact that we are more perceptive and aware of horizontal vs vertical then just put one of your stereo speakers near the floor and one near the ceiling and enjoy that beautiful stereo imaging in the vertical domain. Did ya ever wonder why stero speaker are left right and not up down? Also it's easy to demonstrate. Tlhave someone hold 2 speakers maybe 5 feet apart horizontally and move one close and farther. Then hold them vertically spaced and do the same. You will know the answer very quickly and easily.

[@AK-IT]

are column speakers in the category of line array?

[@DaveRat]

They can be but usually not. Mainly you don't want speakers next to each other manronf the same sound far apart is on. Stacked is ok. Side by side close and pointed the same direction ish, not so good. Most home HiFi speakers will never put side by side tweeters or mida. Side by side lows are ok as the wavelengths are longer to not cause issues

[@AK-IT]

@@DaveRat so a single column speaker (x16 3-inch speakers stacked vertically) would not introduce the phase interference when two are setup close and pointed in same direction? Just clarifying that the vertical stacking produces the line array effect (including the mfg dsp for vertical dispersion pattern), even though column speakers aren’t marketed as large flown “line arrays”.

[@DaveRat]

No, the will hAve interference issues if they are sent signals thay are not decorrelated. Stacking speakers vertically does not solve horizontal issues. Avoiding placing speakers next to each other horizontally will solve horizontal issues

[@AK-IT]

@@DaveRat right, sorry I miss worded my question: single stacked speaker array would not have interference compared to two speakers close to each other. and so a single stack (with 140 deg horizontal dispersion) would be avoiding speakers horizontally near each other to get the same coverage

[@DaveRat]

Yes, 1 wide will avoid horizontal interference issues that we easily hear and tend not to like the sound of. Unless far apart, then they create horiz issues that we like the sound of, as in - home HiFi stereo sound,

[@TheVitorgoncalves]

How do you calculate the power (watts) for an indoor concert….

[@DaveRat]

Typically with modern systems you would do a 3D prediction of the sound system inside the model of the room using the software from the manufacturer. You determine what your desired SPL level is and then design the system to achieve that along with the desired coverage. Then afterwards you can calculate the approximate wattage of the amplifiers driven into the speaker loads.

[@TheVitorgoncalves]

@@DaveRat thanks…

[@DaveRat]

🤙👍🤙

[@MikeDrohman]

Stage Diving 101!

[@StewartGartland]

Well, ok, but one must also consider the function of a line system is to use destructive and constructive interference to throw the sound much further than a point source system. I prefer point source system, but I prefer jazz clubs to arena rock concerts.

[@DaveRat]

Interesting. While yes, there can be destructive aspects from multiple sources, acting as separate sources, those aspects are related to the the wavelength vs spacing between radiating surfaces. Does a long ribbon driver moving in unison have destructive aspects? Multiple drivers that are places close enough together to where the spacing is a fraction of the highest wavelength will act as a long ribbon. The assumption that they act as separate sources when placed in close proximity relative to the wavelength is a flawed assumption.

[@JeremyMcMillan]

Line arrays DO "make the [phase] problems go away." These problems go to horizontal planes not occupied by listeners--away from the ears, or simply they "go away."

[@DaveRat]

Hmmm, perhaps-ish depending on the line array design and the frequency in question. Very few multiple element line arrays can act as a unified source all the way up to 20k. That said, most line arrays no matter how good they are, do not sound good if deployed horizontally, subwoofer line arrays (delayed arc or arc'ed subs) being an exception. Try putting a line array sideways and listen to it. But using a measurement mic, the measurements of a line array deoyed vertically or horizontally will measure the same if all other factors are the same But they won't sound the same to us. Unless we are suspended horizontally to listen to the horizontal line Same with home HiFi speakers. Left right setups will not sound the same to us as one speaker down near the ground and the other above it.

[@LukeEsther]

you sound a little sped up or pitched up in this video, I prefer listening to you at regular pace but that's just me!

[@DaveRat]

Not sped up but I did a delete of all pauses and filler words like um and uh. Makes the vid shorter. The original version is still up, I will add aink to the original into the description

[@michasy2221]

How about the other kind of point source like unityhorn/synergy by DANLEY SOUNDLABS, HAHAHA

[@DaveRat]

Fun stuff and as long as you're not putting speakers in close proximity side by side that reproduce the same frequency range and have overlap in their coverage, then you should be good on the horizontal interference side of things. The main thing is not to go wider than one wide or if you do go lighter than one wide the distance between the side by side things should be a small fraction of the highest frequency wavelength they reproduce. Or they need to cover separate areas with minimal overlap but you'll always have the issues in the overlap region. If you only go one wide there is no horizontal overlap region which is optimum.

[@keepinghe4235]

plane array is future

[@DaveRat]

Like the Holoplot system? Perhaps but also horizontally offset sound source that are in close proximity to each other and reproducing correlated signals so tend to have significant interference issues off axis. This tends to sound undesirable off axis

[@aarontuchardt7540]

Sounds like AI audio voiceover at the end. Maybe I’m crazy… or maybe I caught something most people didn’t…

[@DaveRat]

I used AI to clean up the audio

[@aarontuchardt7540]

@@DaveRat I’m surprised most of the comments I read didn’t notice. Surprised because of the demographic of your audience.

[@DaveRat]

Ha, not sure they didn't notice as much as many of my subscribers, at least those that have follower for a while are used to the not so great production of my vids. Especially the older ones. I do this as a hobby to share info and typically don't spend much time in production quality, though I have tried to improve things more recently

[@guitarz99]

Imo it makes little difference in a hockey arena, the sound is so horrific bouncing around off the walls , ceiling etc , why i dont go to concerts in hockey arenas anymore I'm not paying 500 bucks to hear a band lyp sync with horrible sound

[@DaveRat]

Yeah well it could be worse. Even in a shitty room with lots of hard services align array is better minimizing the amount of sound hitting the ceiling compared to point source systems that don't have that vertical control

[@sudd3660]

what the hell is up with the audio? you really have to talk your video editor or turn that god damn ai shit of. it sounds like a broken autotune.

[@DaveRat]

This is a re release of a 10 year old video. Here is a link to the original version of the video that has not had the audio with noise reduced kzbin.info/www/bejne/r6WsemB4jph4d9Esi=o-IBbT40hiDPLLw-

[@michasy2221]

Bias

[@DaveRat]

Interesting. I find it really weird that there is an emotional bias one way or the other. There are these people that swear by point source systems and other people swear by line array systems. And it's like loving pliers and hating screwdrivers. Kind of dumb It's all about selecting the right tool for the job. But perhaps interestingly can you name a single world-class touring artist that travels with a point source system? Nothing wrong with point source systems they're just not the right tool for the job for many applications. Conversely, line arrays are pretty rarely used for recording studios and home Hi-Fi. Again selecting the right tool for the job. When you need a scalable system that's modular using a bunch of similar boxes and you are traveling around the world covering various spaces, no one currently makes a point source system that is useful and viable enough to be embraced by the professional touring artists This video just points out that when you need to add a more speakers in order to increase volume and coverage that placing a vertically will be less audible to the human ear than placing them horizontally. Conversely placing speakers horizontally is very interesting and cool sounding to us If humans heard horizontal placement and vertical placement exactly the same then it wouldn't matter if you put your home Hi-Fi speakers on the left right wall or on the floor and ceiling vertically one above the other. But the horizontal placement offers beautiful stereo imaging and the vertical placement does not so what's bad for home Hi-Fi is actually good for large format sound systems Now go ahead and point out where the bias is

[@AsselParty]

That is NOT how a line array works. This is just a plain vertical array point source…

[@DaveRat]

At what frequency? Subwoofers stacked horizontally across the front of stage form a line array. How is that different. The Shure Vocal Master is a line array, how is that different? How clear are you on understanding line arrays?

[@ОрловНиколай]

To much enchance on voice

[@DaveRat]

Yeah, the audio in the original version of the video was not great, figures people being able to understand was and important fix, figured the enhance process was, well, who really cares?