Aux Fed Subwoofers Are Better - Because of How Mics Work

I explain and demo the issues with subwoofers connected to the left right outputs and show why controlling what inputs are sent to the subs is preferable, due to microphone limitations.
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00:00 Introduction
01:12 Mics are flawed
03:20 Diaphragm mass
06:25 Mics add unrealistic low end
07:56 Demo of subs aux vs subs to L/R
11:31 Dont send inputs to subs that dont need subs
13:18 Outro

[@jessicaGarcia_Project_videos]

I have been doing live sound for 2 years and this is how I was taught . Subs on a Aux. That's my personal favorite how to set up the subs. Gives me more control.

[@BobDLucas]

I gave up trying to explain this to LR hacks years ago.. It's a lost cause. Thanks for making a video about it that they can't argue with. You're doing a great thing here Dave. Most, and I mean MOST, sound guys would rather belittle someone for not knowing what you feely share, than actually help each other out. You may have gotten your chops years ago, but you continue earn your respect every day.

[@DaveRat]

Thank you so much Bob! Yeah I remember years ago we would rent gear to some vans playing a metal club and they were engineers that were taping over there board channels so you couldn't see their signature snare sound EQ and they would go back and dress up in hairspray their hair before the show. And I thought to myself this is exactly the opposite of anything I ever want to be

[@lansing7864]

Hearing my favorite tracks in atmos pulled me from depression, hearing that song live pulled me from addiction. Music and audio can move you from your worst to your best, as long as you can hear the emotions. I totally get the the vibe of this guy. Love to all! Please keep posting my brother.

[@DaveRat]

Thank you and awesome comment

[@TheTargetedScapegoat]

Totally hear and have experienced what you are saying … at least on a similar level.

[@DaveRat]

👍🤙👍

[@slaterslater5944]

Hope you're still doing well, brother (or sister). It's a classic cliche, but one day at at time, and don't let the bad days make you think they'll never be good days.

[@DaveRat]

👍🤙👍

[@benjaminross2371]

When I switched over my sub to a bus control it made a HUGE difference. I send only kick, floor tom, bass, bass side piano mic, and sometimes guitar if it's a lone acoustic. This is spot on! Cut the crud and let that sub sing freely! It's the ultimate form of subtractive EQ'ing. Your listeners will thank you, people with hearing aids won't need assistive listening devices in most cases, this is an indoor set up, and the bass will sit soooo nicely in the mix.

[@DaveRat]

👍🤙👍

[@ashergregory2013]

I love having a separate send to Subs! Consoles like M32/X32 have a mono/center feed which i use to feed subs. The awesome advantage of using is unlike an aux send, you can set m/c to follow LR Level so you can bring the whole mix down without altering the relative balance between Mains & Subs.

[@DaveRat]

🤙👍🤙

[@markallen4127]

A work around would be to set the aux master to the same level as your main fader, and if you need to change the main just match the aux. But agreed; boards that have a mono or center bus is pretty handy

[@magicmaui77]

I sometimes use a matrix for a second set of speakers and put L/R and the matrix in a dca group. That way you can control all speakers with one fader if necessary .. and are still able to control the balance with the matrix or/and L/R fader. Works with M/C, too of course.

[@DaveRat]

🤙👍🤙

[@magicmaui77]

Adds an independant layer of insert, eq and compression, too (at least on the x/m32), which is pretty handy.

[@joshking2241]

This is so fun for me to watch. I love skills and how they are taken seriously. I’ve always wanted to make music, but have always wanted to start at the source. It’s very enjoyable watching you give your art to the works. Thank you good sir

[@celilo]

I inadvertently replicated your demo. I was installing a replacement mixer and cleaning up a few things in the process. When I tested one of my mics to make sure that sound was properly passing through the new mixer, I was hearing only low frequency distorted sound. My initial response was I didn't know what I was doing or there was something wrong with the new mixer. It turned out that the speaker terminals had pulled out of the mains amplifier while I was moving one of the racks. This left me with only the sub connected. It didn't make sense to me that I was getting such distorted low sound, as my voice should not have had any impact on those frequencies. Your point about microphones imperfect reproduction of sound became crystal clear. Without your video, I would probably have never understood the dynamics of this situation.

[@DaveRat]

Perfect

[@rodgersrcaviation2785]

I’ve been running sound for live bands and dj gigs for 20 plus years. I don’t call myself an engineer by any means. I’ve always set up my and everyone else’s rigs with the subs on a separate send where I at least had control of them independently. Only recently discovered I could aux send the signal a few years ago. When u clip all the extra garbage out the sun send it cleans them up tremendously I was so happy when I got that low mud I couldn’t find before out of my mixes. Most people didn’t notice but I could hear it. The new digital stuff out makes life a whole ton easier. The people buying a new Xr18 don’t really comprehend the processing power they jus purchased. I learn something every time I power on. Great video. And demonstrating the output. Fantastic

[@gregorykusiak5424]

These are the types of videos that I enjoy most: often overlooked but simple techniques that reinforce common sense. Keep ‘em coming, your Ratness!

[@DaveRat]

Awesome and thank you!

[@dx9s]

This is perhaps the best demonstration of why bass management is critical that I have ever seen. Trying to explain/convince others that are stubborn (and we all know at least one), I'll send them this link as well!

[@DaveRat]

🤙👍🤙

[@Epic501]

most desks don't have/most people don't use filters anywhere near sharp enough to cut sub frequencies to -inf with the filter set anywhere that won't also impact how it sounds on the tops, and using filters that sharp has its own phase consequences. There's a reason cinema has always done it the dedicated send way.

[@DaveRat]

Agreed and even with identical sharp filters to the sub crossover filters, filters let some sound though, a send can prevent any sound from getting through

[@todd6726]

Dave...thanks so much for all the great content you create. I was so inspired by this video of yours, that I ran my subs on an aux (for the first time) this last weekend for 2 shows. I have to tell you that the results were MAGICAL. The system was so clear and punchy and I didnt have to push it hard at all. The bands I ran sound for were very pleasantly surprised. I got lots of compliments on the sound too from audience members. I am never going back to full range stereo again. Your demo of what was leaking into my subs proved your point without any doubt. I was confident that doing things this way was going to work. Keep giving us your confident opinions and more education.

[@DaveRat]

Thank you you just made my day!

[@celilo]

I'm a newbie compared to many here, but I love this concept. Dave, I very much appreciate in your videos that you present the reasoning for such techniques and then demonstrate using real world audio. It really helps someone like me to make changes that actually impact sound in a positive way. I'm very grateful for your efforts to produce this channel.

[@DaveRat]

Thank you Kurt, that means a lot to me and makes doing this worthwhile

[@JasperSchwinghammer]

Then make sure to listen to other sources. There are many reasons why Subs on Aux are not a good idea. Especially if you are not 100% sure what you are doing here. Michael Curtis has a good video on it. Pooch van Druten (Iron Maiden, Linkin Park, Justin Bieber) doesn't do it (just an example). Subs on Aux is a possibility. But you should really check if it is worth the extra effort, and if you cannot get a simular result with proper processing ( and not put the HPF on a vocal mic on 90 hz). Especially with PA systems nowaday going down to 35-50hz (l'acoustics K1: 35hz, d&b GSL: 45hz Meyer Panther: 55hz) it is imo a better idea to handle all these things with proper PA setup and highpass filters. It's not only Bass and Drums down there. Metal Guitars are often around 60hz, clearly in the subbass range. Male bassist vocals also have frequencies around 85hz. Not using subs on aux does prevent you from falling into these pitfalls. Make a post preamp recording of the next show you do and sit down and check your channels and how a HPF affects it and where you have to set it to get rid of dirt in the bass frequencies.

[@celilo]

There are certainly many ways to accomplish similar outcomes. All of the things that you mention reflect our current setup. Now I know of an alternative approach that I had not previously considered. Options are good 😊

[@DaveRat]

👍🤙👍

[@DaveRat]

I don't buy the argument that since a pa goes down low, one should send instruments that do not generate sub frequencies but the mics do pick up low end crap, to the subs. What kind of logic is that? Just think of it in reverse. "Does this input need subs? No? Ok, then why send to subs?" As far as being in control of your mix and not ruining the recording, of course, avoid that regardless of how your subs are sent. You don't need subs on a separate send to get a good mix but also, not sending excess unwanted crap to to the subs will always sound better than sending crap to the subs. The question is whether the difference in any situation is audible or not. And that is fairly easy to test. Which I highly recommend. Don't believe me or anyone, test it! With subs on L and R, dial up your mix, high passes and all that, then mute the mains, then mute all the inputs you do want in the subs and then, whatever the subs are now doing is the excess. Look at that signal in Smaart, go listen to the subs, see if they are bouncing around, maybe they are, maybe they are not, and then decide, "is my mix better with this noise added, does it matter? or should I setup my mix so it can be removed?" And remember to enjoy learning and avoid dogma

[@atfoley]

This is what we are using in Dolby Atmos; sending channel low end to the SUB/LFE from each individual channel, object or bed. You’re hypotheses really make’s sense. I will now consider some sort of wind protection, in certain areas of microphone placement, and give you’re idea a go. Thank’s really useful.

[@DaveRat]

Love that

[@ThomasLykins]

I love that you did this demo with an ADAT... OLD SKOOL! Awesome as always Dave. Great explanations!

[@DaveRat]

🤙👍🤙

[@foxytv4896]

I think the same, most people ignore this, some think 'ok why not'... I like it when an Aux Bus is set to post fader, you just put the stuff you want/need the subs, and thats it. Easy and clean. Plus you have additional processing on most aux buses so you can further shape the low end.

[@DaveRat]

👍🤙👍

[@gavinlamp]

Seeing Dave get excited playing from the tape hit home for me. I remember the first time I got trained on a tape machine and got to run the tape remote as an assistant engineer at Evergreen Studios and its the same reaction. Its just cool, makes you smile watching it work and do its thing.

[@DaveRat]

Yeah, it was fun and also skittish getting those old machines to work

[@brianbauer3148]

I agree that maintaining the crossover point is important. Always did aux fed but noticed when well mixed the send would always be close to each other. The current system I work with is stereo to all but ive been considering ways to isolate the subs from signal I dont want in there. Working on a Yamaha right now so I think were going to put the subs on the mono buss. Thanks for all your encouraging videos. Im glad to know im not the only one considering all these ideas you go over. Often people will respect your opinion over mine but i take it if it means implementing the improvements and opening the eyes of others. Your company did an event for us at Anaheim last year the crew was awsome, thanks.

[@renesupersonic]

I’ve been obsessing over this topic for months now!! I love the concept of the LR going everywhere and using EQ to determine what goes to what. I started doing virtual sound checks at home with two mains and a sub, I noticed that a bunch of vocals, guitars, etc were going to my subs even though the vocals are HP at 170hz!!! And subs LP at around 100hz. It just didn’t make sense to me or I kept thinking I was doing something wrong. Lol Thank you so much.

[@DaveRat]

🤙👍

[@johnnulf624]

@@DaveRat @Rene Why is this happening though? Why are frequencies above the crossover getting through? Is it because the slope of the crossover is too gradual and some higher frequencies get reduced but not muted? If so, should the sub be calibrated differently?

[@DaveRat]

A high pass is a filter. That filter has a slope quite often 12 DB per octave. If you sent a high pass at 200 and the slope is 12 dB per octave, one octave down is 100 HZ so the sound will be 12 DB down at 100 Hertz at 50 HZ it will be 24 DB down. You can get high passes with higher slopes but the higher the slope the more they impact other things like phase shift and ringing If you don't want something to go there don't send it there if you want most of it not to go there but some of it to still get through then use a filter

[@patrickfarley8036]

Dave, you're one of kind in my world! I've never heard anyone consider the topics of which you speak! And not only do you talk about the theory but you already have run the tests to prove or disprove what you propose at the start as a "what if theory"! I always learn something from your videos even on topics of which I am (or believed I was 😞) somewhat knowledgeable! How absolutely BLESSED the people in your life are to have you around on a regular basis! They probably don't even realize it! Well, not your daughter. She seems to get it! Thanks for this lesson! ✌️🤘

[@DaveRat]

Thank you! And I do have wonderful people in my life and appreciate the positive comments!!!

[@deadscenedotcom]

Equally applicable to mixing for recordings. It's the same reason to high-pass tracks that shouldn't contribute to sub (subjective choice, of course). I find your videos make sense immediately, though I may not have ever thought about the live use case before. This is another very helpful video. Thank you!

[@DaveRat]

Awesome and thank you

[@efrainperezjr402]

Wow, this was illuminating. I haven't been able to comment or browse vids for awhile (life's been busy), but this was an eye opener. I always assumed that high pass filters generally did a good enough job that you could mix into L&R only, but I never realized how much remains down there to be heard in subs! Gotta consider changes at the church ☺️ Thanks Dave as always! Hope I can sit in on a members Zoom soon!

[@DaveRat]

Cool cool Efrain and see ya soon zoom

[@brendonwood7595]

Not much remains. DId you see how much further up he had to push the fader to get it audible?

[@DaveRat]

That is a 3" speaker. Even the slightest amount of low end garbage is quite audible on a large sub system. Would you buy a sound system with 10% distortion? Do you think you can hear 10% distortion added to you mix? If the cumulative sub energy crap sent to your subs is 20db down, that would be the equivalent of 10% distortion. But yeah, it's not the end of the world and distortion is hard to hear at lower freqs. And subs on an aux is not needed for a great mix and also, the great mix will be a bit greater with the garbage removed.

[@jean-lucbattista2492]

I think you have a great point but a bit too one sided. The more lows handled by the subs, the more headroom and clarity in the mains is too be considered as well. Depends on cabinet sizes, coverage etc... A lot to consider.

[@DaveRat]

I will do more on this and show what sound filters let through that seperate sends prevent. A high pass reduces unwanted lows and reduces lows sent to subs. And cleans up a mix A separate subs send eliminates unwanted lows sent to the subs and cleans the mix up even more

[@drumskentala]

Nice video Dave! I remember asking you this question because of seeing Pooch and Rabold saying they DON’T do subs on an Aux. I found it fascinating because since I’ve been learning the craft EVERY engineer I learned from and every venue I go to has the subs on an Aux option. Great job explaining why you want it!

[@DaveRat]

Yes, Steve I remember and you are the inspiration for the vid. Yeah, don't need subs on a send but unless you need subs on all inputs you will add high pass on inputs that may not need it and will get unwanted energy sent to the subs which is usually time lagged bass bleed, handling noise, wind noise and vibrations.

[@drumskentala]

@@DaveRat Very cool! There is one venue I'm in often that is full range and it' such a different animal. I have to be WAY more liberal with high pass filters. In a weird way I'm glad I'm forced to mix full range at this club so I have an idea of how to handle it if I run into it in the future aka more aggressive with the high pass on all instruments. Otherwise the low end swallows everything. Hopefully I can jump on a zoom soon!

[@DaveRat]

There is a subs on an aux emulation option as well

[@TheDude1764]

I know this is an older video, but I wanted to say thanks for the content on your channel. It’s nice to get some real-world data/testing to ‘prove’ the things we know are the right thing to do. I just picked up one of your CAT5E cables, by the way. Glad I found you here and that it led to some good equipment purchases!😂

[@DaveRat]

Awesome and thank you TheDude!!

[@dastrangla]

Feels good hearing my favorite engineer reinforce a practice I've been doing all along. Can't imagine not having it separated out, or being able to set higher or lower levels for certain instruments in the sub mix.

[@johnwelsh2769]

I love the sound of ADATs rewinding! That brings back memories. I had three XT20's. I still have one for archives.

[@DayNNyteDJs]

I'm a mobile DJ (not a sound engineer) and I should not find this nearly as exciting as I do. Thank goodness there were already thousands of viewers before me to make me feel better. The microphone explanation was priceless and overall eye opening. Thank you.

[@DaveRat]

Awesome and I hope at some point artists release music with left, right, subs and more. That said, as a DJ, rather than dum lows for tracks that you want to lose lows, having the ability to not send to subs may be interesting

[@TomCee53]

This has the added benefit of not needing as big of a sub amp if your only reproducing the desired content.

[@DaveRat]

Yes, a 3db drop in energy sent to the subs would mean using 1/2 the power

[@precisionsoundworksstudio]

Good session, Dave. Very informative as always! I was getting nostalgic when you mentioned the ADATs!

[@DaveRat]

👍👍👍, I need one more and yes having them working as a blast from the past

[@Cruzathon]

Dave, you are the best. I love your videos and I learn a lot watching them. thank you for your time and effort.

[@DaveRat]

So cool thank you!

[@phildavis1723]

Oh man. It's SO cool to see these videos for me! I have been fascinated by sound gear since I was like 10. I am now 53, and my health crashed 5 years ago, so I am up on blocks. I got the work I could, and am a lqualified mechanic, and engine rebuilding specialist, or at least I was. I have however been reading and larning all I can about sound, and you never know, someday I may be able to use it! I also am training on electric fundementals with one of the most experienced engineers in Canada, who has retired, but he kept a shop, and we are buddies. HUGE opportunity. Anyhow, thanks for the videos!

[@DaveRat]

So cool and never stop with curiosity and new adventures!!

[@artysanmobile]

An outstanding presentation, Dave. Evidence and all, you sold the idea brilliantly.

[@DaveRat]

Thank you Peter!

[@plengyel921]

A practice I live by. Learned from you waaaay back. Thanks!

[@DaveRat]

Awesome Perry!

[@AwayFromTheShadow]

Thanks for the explanation, I am running the sound for a student council party at my college and we have a weird collection of random technology. Feeding a Macbook into a Yamaha MG16XU which then outputs into a Yamaha PX10 to power the 2 passive Dynacord D15-3. That is where I struggled to find a good solution, cause the Sub we have is an active RCF sub 905-as ii. At first I didn't know what to do, cause usually we get active speakers with passthrough, but now I am excited to run the sub over the Aux send, and possibly in the future with other setups as well.

[@DaveRat]

👍🔧👍

[@phillipjackson245]

I have mixed with aux fed subs for many years, I just love the control it gives the engineer and as you mention you only send info to the subs that you want to be reproduced in them.

[@DaveRat]

👍🤙👍

[@noelghallager4672]

So smart. Love your channel Dave! Keep doing what you’re doing brother 😎

[@DaveRat]

Awesome and thank you Noel!

[@buddyalbert5808]

Big 👍 for Aux fed subs. Only Kick, Floor Tom’s and Bass is sent. Very helpful in challenging rooms. Great content. Thanks!

[@DaveRat]

👍🤙👍

[@83RED]

Hi there , Dave I've always used aux for subs just because this reason ! Just thanking you for all these great content! I love to learn, and you are one of my best teacher since my math s teacher from the first grade! I wish I to know you from the very begging of my career hahah! Thanks for all and when you come to Rio , just let me know. Would be a great pleasure to shake your hand! thank you for all! and sorry for my bad English.

[@DaveRat]

Very cool and great to meet you. I've been to Rio several times and it was wonderful!

[@AngelGabrielMusic]

Thanks for the heads up! I hope I get to hear one of your live mixes soon!

[@DaveRat]

🤙👍🤙

[@Drummerjuice]

Great content Dave! I'm sending this to our soundguy!

[@DaveRat]

Awesome

[@davidruiz3787]

Gracias amigo Dave, definitely the truth for me as I do experienced my self and the result is a cleaner sound on the overall, thanks again for your contributions. Saludos from Michoacán México

[@DaveRat]

¡Buenos! And thank you David

[@farn451]

Great to hear you say this. I've been an advocate of aux fed subs for a very long time. I work in corporate rather than live music but from time to time the PA will have subs in it and often times it's set up by someone else and I come in and mix the event. I often find they've either sent everything to the subs or in the case of d&b PA they've set things up in mix/top sub configuration letting the amp's crossover handle the split. I only need my playback machines and background music to go to the subs but they've routed everything: top table mics, lectern mics, lapel mics, hand helds, everything. So I unpick their rig and route things my way with only the things with desired low end information to the subs. Even for the mains I tend to roll off a lot of the low end in most speech mics to minimise unwanted noise (and try not to remove the colour of the presenter's voice). I suspect this old school purist matrix/mono sub routing ideology is also why so many live music engineers have really flabby sounding subs rather than tight and punchy ones!

[@DaveRat]

That is another great example of why subs need to be seperate

[@ashergregory2013]

With mix/top sub with d&b you can still set the input source of the sub outputs to a different input. You just need to know how to navigate the amp.

[@DaveRat]

👍🤙👍

[@danmills7084]

This was really helpful. Thanks for making this!

[@DaveRat]

🤙👍🤙

[@diegoalonso225]

Love the way you explained. Thanks a lot

[@DaveRat]

🤙👍🤙

[@sammyjames9743]

Very insightful! Great explanation on this topic!!

[@1062venturesfan]

Absolutely!!! I've been using aux fed subs for about three years or so now and what a major improvement in FOH sound it makes!!! Everything is cleaner and clearer and we never have vocal mics feeding back through the subs!!!

[@DaveRat]

⚡🤙👍🤙

[@elbeaver0]

Finally tried it last Weekend, Gotta say, truly liked it! Thank you!

[@DaveRat]

Awesome that makes my day!

[@jamiemiller6257]

That little sub is great for showing you visually how much energy is there. That wasted energy can mean the difference between enough headroom and no headroom. I do some small, low budget events where the PA is often undersized. I find subs on a separate send makes a difference not only to the quality of the mix, but also the available headroom of the subs.

[@DaveRat]

Agreed

[@joelglaser5657]

Thanks Dave. I always learn something interesting from your videos.

[@DaveRat]

Cool cool Joel!

[@joelglaser5657]

@@DaveRat AND, I've been using aux fed subs for years and love it. Have no intention of changing regardless of what the naysayers might claim. It just works for me.

[@DaveRat]

The beauty of the naysayers is that they voluntarily choose to give those of us who desire more control an advantage to sound better than they do

[@peterblackmore7560]

Having done live sound for ten years and then 35 years of designing installed systems, I specify that vocal mics (mostly spoken word) are not part of the matrix to subs. It makes the voice/s more clear and articulate whilst preventing feedback into subs. Most of these systems have audio DSPs under system wide touchscreen control, so it is no big deal to program the DSP accordingly and lock them to stop people messing with them! Love your sessions Dave - you are an original thinker with masses of experience to back you up. Please keep 'em coming.

[@DaveRat]

Awesome thank you Peter!

[@ryannebrich9869]

Sometimes I found the best for spoken voice is to feed a lot into the subs and then eq and sculpt your vocals off of that

[@ryannebrich9869]

Backwards approach maybe but it gives your vocals more power and punch

[@DaveRat]

Hmmm, with a subwoofer being a speaker that reproduces sound below what the woofer reproduces, sub woofer frequencies, we typically you're talking about frequencies from 20 Hz to 60 or 80 Hz. So these frequencies are booms and pops and rumbles that you feel in your gut and tend to be very distracting from actually listening to what someone is saying as a true subwoofer only reproduces frequencies below the actual human voice. I can understand using subwoofers as an effect on a vocal but you would have to be quite careful because even the slightest breath or touch of the mic would shake the room with a two subwoofer system. I get the feeling you are talking more about low frequency drivers and warming up the vocal then talking about actual subwoofers

[@dankeifer]

The old Yamaha Sound Reinforcement Handbook recommended this 30 years ago (for the same reasons) and I still do it. The laws of physics do not change. The problem is that most live engineers have never read a book. Every engineer should at least own the Yamaha book and the JBL Audio Engineering for Sound Reinforcement.

[@DaveRat]

Interesting I will take a look when I get a chance.

[@TheTargetedScapegoat]

You have a great way of explaining complex concepts regarding audio as we hear it and audio as technology that attempts to simulate audio as we hear it. The major point I get is that much of that audio is felt and not necessarily heard, but microphones can’t adequately compensate for this. In order to simulate the experience a cleaner and more effective mix you must exaggerate frequencies with audio that is meant for the output they are given.

[@DaveRat]

👍🤙😃

[@luissolano101]

started using aux fed subs about 6 years ago and never looked back...just wished i discovered it sooner

[@DaveRat]

🤙👍🤙

[@Danieljfern]

@Dave Rat, you're f-king brilliant. Maybe this is a measure of me as a live sound engineer but you always come at me with a problem I never knew I had and change my whole approach. Top! Ta

[@DaveRat]

Thank you so much!

[@ulrikjohansson140]

As always, true passion for the thing called sound/audio!

[@DaveRat]

Fun!

[@smloveskittycats]

I learned subs on aux near the beginning. The video is actually pretty relevant to me because I hold Mr. Rat's opinion in high regard, but also somewhat recently had made the switch to LR after a diatribe from a very senior, touring engineer advocating LR and basically telling me that Aux Fed Subs are a flawed way to do things. His reasoning was, as I understood it and recall: Take the kick drum. You make a certain EQ for the kick drum and send a healthy amount to sub aux. In further processing the kick channel you decide to send more or less of it to the sub aux. In doing so, according to that engineer (or how I understood him), realistically that will change how that EQ or processing is behaving on the channel. Sending more kick to the aux sub creates an effect where the processing for the channel is no longer predictable, as the amount of kick in the sub is increasing and potentially blurring the phase(?). Just by virtue of something being louder or quieter there's a natural/psychoacoustic (fletcher-munson-type) EQ curve thing going on. So for only the crossed-over low end to be raising in volume against the LR image of the same channel.. phasing and predictability of processing suffers. Something like that. And just one gripe I have with the video is in the HPF demonstration portion, the HPF demonstrated is much lower than engineer are actually using when they use LR, no? Vocals will end up going to something like 150.. depending on the slope as well. And for a high hat which is by the drums and bound to pick up low end, a 90hz HPF is pretty unrealistic. That would go somewhere to at least 300hz and have no chance of being the subs I'd assume. I definitely digress, I'm not an authority on the subject. It was my deference to that one engineer that made me try to understand exactly why he was so adamant about the concept. But of course, at the end of the day, we use our ears - and I've personally never been inconvenienced by the concepts above when using aux fed subs. So it really does come down to a bit of a "purist" contention. But if anybody more learned could tell me if there's some truth to the concepts, I'd be interested to know.

[@DaveRat]

I used 90 Hz because most true subs crossover at 80Hz. So I could show that a high pass at 90 let's loads of energy even when the subs only go up to 80. Setting super high high pass filters does reduce energy to subs but also tends to sacrifice warmth and sound quality. With subs on an aux, those things are seperate. You set the high pass for best sound, not to keep energy out of the subs. You send to the subs for best sound, not just send everything and try and high pass out the excess

[@nikola.kovacevic]

Another amazing video Dave! Still waiting for that monitor/room ringing put video 💪❤️

[@DaveRat]

🤙👍🤙

[@Edwin-van-der-Putten]

Wow! So simple... but I never thought of that... Thanks for another great advice-video, Dave! 🙂

[@DaveRat]

⚡👍⚡

[@partymonkey365]

So orderly, but oh so musical… thank you for sharing this VALUABLE knowledge and thought process!

[@DaveRat]

👍🤙👍

[@bassred]

Dave, love your content! Thank you for sharing your knowledge! Your examples are so clear and complete - I just love watching and sharing your videos! I've heard all the arguments for or against Aux-Fed subs - It IS the industry standard (I see more riders specifying that subs MUST be on an AUX) for a reason. I don't know why anyone would prefer to send all the material into a bus, to cut it down in the console, processing or sub itself (for self-crossed-over powered units). My theory has always been that anything that isn't turned into sound is turned into heat - whether that is just processing power sucked-up by having to trim out all the unwanted frequencies before the output, or actual physical heat at the power amp input or turning the signal into watts that won't get reproduced by the sub speaker anyway, or at the speaker getting a signal that it can't reproduce - there's just no reason to do any of that when you send just the sub frequencies out of an aux or bus. Basically, if my subs catch on fire I want it to be because we were cranking SOOO MUCH bass, and not because the system was setup to generate undue signal/heat... I've found that too many (young?!) sound guys want the subs ALL UP ALL THE TIME and getting them to mix the bass and kick to be full/present in the subs but not eating up the audience area with low frequencies is a real challenge. We all like a good, full, punchy, loud concert, but there are ways to get a good sound without just ripping the low end items 100% all the time! The first place I look/knob I reach for if a kick or bass isn't sitting in the mix is that sub aux, a gentle turn DOWN and a boost on the fader usually sets the world right again and instead of just turning any part UP, the instrument fits in its place in the mix and everyone is happy...

[@DaveRat]

Yes

[@dpinskey]

Thanks again Dave, for getting more live engineers in on the ways to make systems shine and flow! It benefits us all, engineers and listeners, to produce and enjoy a more sonically pleasing experience. Cheers!

[@DaveRat]

🤙👍🤙

[@stevenewtube]

Love your work. Great advice!

[@DaveRat]

👍🤙👍

[@makstaz79]

Very much appreciate this information, the demonstration was very helpful too

[@DaveRat]

👍🤙👍

[@lessgooooo]

I've never liked powered speakers linked to powered subs when mixing a live band. I've always found the mix so muddy. I used to think that I was doing something so wrong by using a sub on an aux send haha. Other than the mix being cleaner, I'd like to think that the subs would be working more efficiently not having to worry about the "junk" getting in.🤷‍♂ I love your videos so much. My best subscription on youtube. Thanks for sharing your knowledge with us good sir🤙

[@DaveRat]

Awesome🤙

[@mannycomeo]

This man in a genius, thank you for sharing your knowledge!

[@DaveRat]

🤙👍🤙

[@Videditor1067]

So from now on, my colander strainer will always be known as a condenser strainer! Can't unsee that, great visual demo. Great video...

[@DaveRat]

Awesome and thank you!!

[@jobaecker9752]

Wow, something I never really considered! Great explanations!

[@DaveRat]

🤙👍🤙

[@Aquatarkus96]

Damn, you make me want to reconfigure my system for aux fed subs. Been running full range for simplicity sake, but you make a damn convincing point, and any other engineers probably just need a note ahead of time and they'll be ok with it

[@DaveRat]

👍🤙👍

[@charlieaames1]

This is such a sweet video to see during this “modern mixing revolution”. SO many engineers mix full range, and I feel like this video debunks a lot of their theories out there. I really appreciate your input here. Like you said, “it’s not about mixing subs on an aux, it’s about not sending everything to the subs.” In general: how do you feel about flown subs? I work in a venue that has flown subs tied in with the Main Arrays. There are ground stacked subs on a separate drive line. The 2 zones of sub can be difficult for some engineers, but everything is in phase, and I personally really love the result. I feel like the best approach is to use the ground subs as supplement (on an aux.) Would love to hear your thoughts. Thanks!

[@b__wenner]

Nice vid. I do more corporate stuff than bands these days, but I started getting into the habit of only sending video playback and pre-recorded music content to the subs on an aux mono send (post-fader), and then not sending any microphones to the sub. I worked with a guy who was sending his entire L/R mix to the sub on a matrix and we solo'd out the sub and you heard faint rumblings from open mics. I'm glad to see I'm not the only one who thought that method was weird, hah. Also, low passing the sub to taste and adding some fairly intense compression can help really make the sub sit under your mains.

[@DaveRat]

Agreed

[@kevinlentz7604]

So informative ❤love your work

[@DaveRat]

Awesome and thank you!

[@robroilen4441]

Liked just from reading the title 🤙It would be interesting to see a demonstration of further low-end management using high pass + low shelving Also, on an unrelated note, do you have any strong feelings about hearing damage from running front of house over a long period of time? Do you ever wear earplugs when mixing?

[@DaveRat]

👍🤙🤙👍

[@scottrobinson9752]

I've been a sound guy since 1989...and also played in bands early on. I remember having this debate in the late 80s...and we (the band) agreed that subs on an aux would be preferable. We had a 24 channel analog console, with 6 auxes, and 4 sub groups. And we had one stereo two-way crossover. We used that to send lows to the subs, and higs to full range, passively crossed over tops...the classic quasi-three-way system that was common in those days. So the dilemma became how to create an additional send for the subs, and purchasing an additional crossover, so we could separate the subs. We ended up buying a bigger console and an additional crossover, just to achieve subs on an aux. The band eventually broke up, and I ended up owning the system...which I began renting out. At the level I was at (small time level), it was quite the selling point to be able to do subs on an aux.

[@DaveRat]

So cool

[@M0M...]

Great Points. Im going to look in to this deeper

[@DaveRat]

🤙👍🤙

[@peehandshihtzu]

This makes complete sense to me, I am picking up what you are putting down my friends. Great explanation and topic. Cool Cool! :)

[@DaveRat]

🤙👍🤙😃

[@rubenp8750]

Love the idea. That really has to make the low end really clean and clear and would argue that if you could employ a crossover on those low frequency instrument channels, you could eliminate phase problems between subs and mains.

[@DaveRat]

That would just be a glofied high pass and filter lows but not prevent the instrument from being sent to the subs Also, issues with sub crossover perfection are over rated. Any issues only impact a very narrow band of frequencies at the x-over point. Plus, unless your subs and tops are physically extremely close together, an audience member moving closer to subs and father from tops or vise a versa, totally screws the crossover summation anyway. So you have the ability to clean up lows and possible slight impact crossover issues that are already there, or you just have the crossover issues anyway

[@oliviersadoulet337]

Putting sub/main on phase is very important (and yes its never perfect wich is why you average it with several mics) but using aux for sub doesnt prevent that. Just set it up with the console setup you will use and make a dca for main+sub in case you have to change your overall signal.

[@miguelpozoblock4223]

Very interesting explanation,thanks Dave

[@DaveRat]

🤙🔧🤙

[@johnmarkbaugbog6296]

we have a separate bus mix for subs and we only turn on the channels for bass guitar and bass drums and a little bit of the floor tom on that bus mix, much easier to mix and troubleshoot

[@DaveRat]

🤙👍🤙

[@patthesoundguy]

The moment I realized many years ago about running subs on an aux my world changed for the better. I often use subs on a matrix to control subs in some situations but my favorite setup now is how the X32/M32 new firmware handles subs on the mono send... Each channel has a sub level that sends to the mono as a sub out like an aux send but there is also an on/off button. So I can really dial in low end the way I want. Sub or no sub or a set level and I can pass filter along with that. And as someone else also mentioned that mono sub send follows the main L/R level with mute. I love it. I do a ton of conference and AV events now and that sub on and off on each channel is a game changer especially when you have to do video playback... So many people that edit video these days leave a ton of low end garbage on voice so I pass filter and turn subs off. Or video conferencing returns sound terrible with any low end let alone subs😉

[@DaveRat]

🤙👍🤙

[@spookypen]

Another great vid, thanks Dave!

[@DaveRat]

🤙👍🤙

[@santana261]

Great explanation, it open my brain to another possibilities, but its necessary tha aux must controled by the dial, to maintain the levels in equalyty ??

[@Resounded]

Your video is Fantabulous !!!! Spot ON !!!! Brilliant !!!! " Super Dave " !!!

[@DaveRat]

So cool and thank you!!!

[@ryanandrade1225]

Hi this is True i do this with our main PA for our bands live gigs as well as for our practices. For practice we use a UI24r, and only bass and drums are sent to subs. The low sound more clear and precise and the mix stays tight.

[@DaveRat]

🤙👍🤙

[@gnanaitvara1246]

Lovely video, great explanation to boot. Is that a Midas in the background?

[@DaveRat]

H3000

[@MichaelNatrin]

Fantastic info. Great video.

[@DaveRat]

👍🤙👍

[@JayRSwan]

A great way of explaining the issue than showing it! Perfect

[@DaveRat]

👍🤙🤙

[@antonymification212]

Hey Dave, Thanks for sharing so much of your knowledge, it's so interesting. I'm a Sound guy, but I work in a different field. It's fascinating to see how simular and how different things are for us all. Much love and respect. Still not sure about behringer though.... 🤔😉

[@DaveRat]

Great to meet ya and I use the behringer to show that knowledge and skills don't require expensive gear

[@jjax633]

Man…I need you and Michael Lawrence to do a live forum on this topic 😂😂😂. I’m so conflicted, but I think having a system management device like a Driverack makes a difference if you don’t do things the Aux Sub way Love the content Dave!

[@DaveRat]

👍🤙👍

[@alxd5068]

never thought of that. basically cleaning up the low end… lots of mud off… thanks for this

[@DaveRat]

🤙👍🤙

[@vstasiukaitis]

Great topic. I have done some installations where sound engineers insisted of having subs tied to LR output. I tried to negotiate that it is not right but no luck :)

[@DaveRat]

👍🤙👍

[@dwaynearthur1476]

This is GREAT!!!! Thanks Dave 🤙!

[@DaveRat]

👍🤙👍

[@jameslawford4057]

Years ago I attended a great seminar by Buford Jones for Meyer Sound, where he addressed sub-woofer levels. So many techs just push the subs up to full power meaning there's basically a huge level boost at the sub-woofer frequencies. He advocated a balanced system, and to prove the point played some gig 2-track board tapes through a system, which not only sounded amazing (I think it was Jackson Browne), but had a completely smooth and balanced low end. Take time to get a balanced system, then use a separate sub-woofer feed, and you'll be a long way to getting a clean and musical low end!

[@DaveRat]

👍🤙👍

[@TickyTack23]

My cheap ass stereo broke, and this is making me reconsider what to look for in my next stereo. It makes a lot of sense that if you don't filter your audio accordingly to the speakers you are using, the garbage will distort the audio you want to hear. Whether it be the signals you want getting drown out by the distortions, or the mechanical limitations of the speaker itself from being able to move its diaphragm fast enough.

[@DaveRat]

👍👍🤙

[@stevesnelling7615]

Brilliant concept!

[@DaveRat]

👍👍 Steve

[@leightnite3056]

I needed this...more than u know!

[@DaveRat]

🤙👍🤙

[@jimbometrix]

Hi dave! Great video. I just want to ask about the sub speaker if how many hertz you did the high cut?

[@issaccartwright736]

Next time I'd appreciate it if you approached me from the front to ask me why I'm sending hi hats to the subs. Only joking. Thank you for taking the time out to help others. Some people on reddit frown upon this kind of behaviour. You have helped me, and it is appreciated. I am paying it forwards cause that seems like the right thing to do.

[@DaveRat]

Funny and awesome!!

[@ianwollstein8974]

Mixing the Tasmanian Symphony Orchestra back in the day I would have 8xdouble 18” boxes just for Cocert bass drum, principle double bass and tube via an aux send for live outdoor sound gigs… love this concept and teach it to others 🤓❤️

[@rabudja48]

It is very easy to setup an entry level sq6 to test and compare these strategies on site. Delay compensation is here. Aux can be sent to Matrix, Group can be sent to Aux or Matrix. We can mute the aux to sub matrix contribution and unmute LR to sub matrix contribution to compare (as well as variations using groups). The mix has to sound good both with and without subs - some comments make it appear as though it’s either higher HP frequencies or aux to sub, never in combination. Small differences add up.

[@DaveRat]

Yes!!!

[@Xtn1Insecticide]

I love this guy. So a mic in a giant concrete block would have less mechanical movement than in a cage that only evens out the mic moving, except in an environment when the whole ground shakes like near a train or trucks on a road sending a pressure wave in front of them through the ground

[@DaveRat]

Stable mounts and shock mounts do help but wind is a whole other issue as well as handling noise

[@charlesthomas5956]

Hey Dave, always appreciate your content and perspective. You always get my brain working. I see pros and cons to this method depending on the console that is being used. If the console doesn't have delay compensation for the group/aux busses how do you suggest avoiding comb filtering between the L/R mix and the subs on aux? I suppose that you could send the subs into an aux then send that to a matrix output as well as sending the L/R mix to matrix outputs, but still not sure if this would be completely phase coherent depending on the console that is being used.

[@DaveRat]

Comb filtering occurs when the same signal is combined with a time delayed version of itself With subs, the only common frequencies between mains and subs would be in the crossover region. If you crossover at 80hz, that has a wavelength of 14 feet. If your console has a latency offset of 1ms, that would be the same as mucing your subs 1 foot closer or farther. And have an impact of less than 1db in the crossover region. In other words, a non issue or at least a small fraction of the issues that not having subs on an aux creates.

[@charlesthomas5956]

@@DaveRatI can agree with that. Typically the comb filtering between an aux and L/R output is marginal at best. And some of the more challenging environments tend to require compromise and choosing your battles wisely. For example, the wind noise issues you mention. They can be extremely difficult at times, and aux driven subs will help clean up some of the sub frequencies. But that still doesn't clean up all the wind noise that occurs between the frequency range of 80-250Hz. What is your go to approach for taming wind noise in a vocal mic (besides throwing a wind screen on the mic)?

[@DaveRat]

Widnd screen is the way, once the wind noise gets in, no way to get it all back out

[@FrancoContreras]

This is one of the best themes in my opinion, and very underrated for some folks.

[@DaveRat]

👍🤙👍