Are M-Discs A Scam!? Addressing The Reddit M-Disc Controversy

Some folks on the datahoarders subreddit are convinced that all M-Discs on the market are regular Blu Rays that Verbatim are dumping on unsuspecting customers. In this video I tried to get to the heart of the controversy and put forth some reasoning as to why I don't see any smoking guns ... or reason to believe us optical media diehards are being hoodwinked.
By: Daniel Rosehill (‪@DanielSRosehill‬)

[@vinishshetty8055]

Its not a scam, The regular Blu Ray discs that are manufactured now a days all use the same inorganic recording materials as a M-Disc uses however the regular BD-R Discs are not sealed from the elements on the edge/ circumference of the disc, On the other hand The M-Disc recording layer itself is bonded between the polycarbonate layers and some adhesive interlocking to Bond and seal the recording layer inside creating a shell around the Recording layer and a Ti or Titanium Oxide layer is sprayed on the disc to seal it from moisture and elements. Even a regular BD-R, BD-R DL, BD-R XL are all rated to last for 15000 years if stored properly that is the theoretical LE/Life expectancy however factually speaking you could get a life expectancy of at least 25-50 years from regular Blu Ray Discs and at least 50-100 years easily from an M-Disc BD-R /DL/XL 25/50/100GB. I have read all the research papers both from Millenniata and Mitsubishi Chemicals, I also researched the founders of Millenniata(Barry Lunt Ph.D, Matthew Linford Ph.D, and Douglas Hansen Ph.D are the founders of Millenniata) and read their research papers regarding the M-Disc, They themselves express that the failure point for an M-Disc would be the failure of the Polycarbonate Layer or the Plastic layer which encases the recording layer, Which could turn brittle over time. For reference please visit Verbatim Japan website and under product section check the BD/DVD/CD section or the M-Disc Section for regular BD-R(VBR520YP1D4) and M-Disc(VBR520YMDP1V1) You can click on ("M-DISC" is a BD-R disc for lifetime storage that allows you to keep your important records for a long time) and (*Based on the measurement standards of the international standard ISO/IEC 16963. For more information, please click here .) After you click the link it will show you (Lifetime storage disc "M-DISC" 100GB lifespan estimation test results) (www.verbatim.jp/special/mdisc-02.html) where you could read the research paper on ISO/IEC 16963:2015, Or you could click on (Please see here for documentation on M-DISC created by Millenniata, Inc., USA .) and Read (www.verbatim.jp/special/mdisc-01.html). I would also recommend that you visit the product page of both M-Disc (VBR520YMDP1V1) and regular BD-R (VBR520YP1D4) scroll Down and expand (High-hardness titanium and strong structure for excellent durability) for M-Disc BD-R and (Surface treatment protects data from damage) for regular BD-R, You can easily distinguish the manufacturing process and the different (Strong structure for excellent durability) for M-Disc and (Advanced 3-layer technology) for Regular BD-R. Hope my comment helps everyone reading this Long Comment, Cheers!

[@HashanGayasri]

Thanks

[@abderrahimaourir]

What an amazing & thorough response, thank you so much

[@MerchantsOfMisery]

Amazing comment. Thank you.

[@powersource1988]

Thanks! Now i don't have to watch the video anymore :p

[@marcogenovesi8570]

It's possibly scummy if they are indeed using the M-disk branding to charge higher prices for the same BD-Rs they sell without the branding, but legally speaking this is within their rights. Afaik the M-Disk Blurays do not have any real specification or validation nor any real "fake aging" tests to validate the 1000 year claims. Yes it's correct, they DO NOT require a special player. All the specs and validation and tests were done on the DVD version. As it stands now, it's literally just a "this is an archive disk" symbol. The two holders (Verbatim and Ritek) can just brand whatever bluray they want as M-Disk if they think it's "good enough". All the color changes and labels and plastic packaging, all that is wank. Yes these disks are clearly different, it still does not prove that the "fake" one is bad. The "cheap organic BD-Rs" mentioned in the thread don't really exist and haven't existed for 5 years at this point, so anybody making those claims is clueless. All Bluray on the market is HTL (high to low) and made with inorganic materials similar to what the original M-Discs were. HTL is easy to tell from visual inspection. The burned area is DARKER than the unburned areas. LTH is the reverse. LTH Blurays were a cheap version with organic dyes and those do degrade quicker, but they were discontinued long ago. I have not seen tests done with the "new" "fake" bluray though. There are some old tests done with the gold-looking bluray disk with Milleniata ID in a blog "A Review of M Disc Archival Capability. With long term testing results." The person just chucked the test subjects out in the sun form months and then buried in soil for months. The M-Disk survived, the "control" BD-R turned into a coaster. Maybe you can try this out on your own if you don't mind sacrificing a disk or two for science? Normal HTL blurays already should have a good lifespan though (especially if kept well). Panasonic blurays both R and RW were tested/certified to last at least 50 years and there is a pdf marketing material about it called "World’s first TÜV Rheinland Certified Blu-ray Disc", and that's what they use as a justification for their claim of 50 years in a sticker on the box. There is a PDFs floating around called "Summary of Life Estimation Test Archive BD-R DL and TL of Mitsubishi Kagaku Media" where from their testing, their BD-R DL Enterprise Archive disks were predicted to survive for more than 100 years and their BD-R BDXL were going to survive for more than 1000.

[@tommik1283]

I agree with you on everything but that BDXL part. Makes no sence that triple layered disc will last longer than dual or single layered one. In fact a single layer version will win that race I am sure...

[@nugget6635]

I think that... It is.. Just an oxide based disc which means it has no metal that gets oxidized. This means it probably lasts longer than ordinary discs however there is no way to prove it will last 1000 years. Being quite honest in my opinion 100 years would be enough for archives.

[@marcogenovesi8570]

@@nugget6635 Accelerated aging tests are a thing, since the "aging" process in this case is just a chemical reaction whose speed is affected by heat and other factors you can control. The same way you can test something lasts 100 years without waiting 100 years, you can test for 1000 years. The issue here is that the manufacturer does not disclose this information and only a handful of such tests were performed on similar discs from other manufacturers

[@JeremyKingTech]

I remember coming across this post in reddit awhile back. It led me to dig into researching it as well and I couldn't find anything to suggest that this was something to legitimately be concerned about. I'm interested in the disc colour differences but I would think that this could easily be chalked up to a slight change in formulation.

[@DanielSRosehill]

Exactly. The slightly different blue packaging could be a change of ink at the printer's or a different supplier 🤷‍♂ I appreciate the efforts of anybody trying to invest time, effort, and innovation into data permanency. It's been almost entirely neglected by the storage industry since its inception!

[@SRN42069]

I own some real Japanese M-Discs from Maxell They have a copper/gold tint.

[@stephenjones5304]

@@DanielSRosehill See my recent comment above. Things look questionable.

[@gls1232]

Thanks for looking into this!

[@halenmartini6705]

thank you for looking into this, i thought i was the only one who remotely cared about this and optical media backup in this day and age

[@danielontech]

LOL. Yes I have frequently had the same feeling. I love the Reddit communities because I see that other people care (even if us optical media folk are a minority within a minority!)

[@jakubmierzejewski961]

@@danielontech I was ignoring optical realm since 15 years or more. But burning to BD-R 25GB Verbatim (CMCMAG-BA5-000) my photos and videos which I've collcted over the years gave me a peace of mind. HDDs/SSDs are not as reliable as people think. Save your important data! I don't think M-Disc price is justifiable. HTL Verbatims should be fine for 15-30 years at least. If not 50 or a 100. I still have CD's/DVD's from 25 years ago perfectly working. Bluray i hope will stay the same way. Gonna check them in 5 years.

[@algallego]

@@danielontech I still have some of the original UNOPENED 15 pack M*DISCs I never utilized, only because I never got around to optically backing up my SATA array to them, particularly to be used for family photos/videos and some select PC content worth saving. I hope I won't experience the issues with the discs Reddit is calling into question. Admittedly, they date back quite a few years, circa 2015-2016, give or take a couple years, yet long before I ever heard that Verbatim or any other manufacturer was making them. Update: I just found this in my archive of Amazon orders. Get this... the purchase dates back to December 2014. Yes, they are Milleniata. Order Placed: December 1, 2014 Items Ordered Price 1 of: LG Electronics 14X USB 3.0 Super-Multi Blu-Ray External Rewriter, White/Silver (BE14NU40) Sold by: Amazon.com Services, Inc Supplied by: Other Condition: New $124.95 3 of: M-DISC 25GB Blu-ray Media - 15 Disc Cake Box Sold by: Produplicator (Since 1997) (seller profile) | Product question? Ask Seller Supplied by: Other Condition: New $67.50

[@MassimilianoGallieri]

Hi Daniel, i read about the reddit post but i trust you and i bought my bd writer and i will back up m disc for future, thank you! Ciao!

[@danielontech]

Great to hear! Good luck with your archiving!

[@Justin-vq9co]

good ol reddit

[@danielontech]

It has its moments. And then the opposite of that.

[@ericlotze7724]

Anyone have access to an Electron Microscope or some sort of (Flame) Spectroscopy Setup? This is just me thinking out loud here, but wouldn't an easy test be cut out a bit of each disc and see if they show different composition, and if so how different? PC+Glassy Carbon vs PC+Dyes or Metal Alloy if i understand correctly, right?

[@Stryder_The_Nite_Owl]

Having been exposed to this problem at work, buying newer 'M-Disc" media and discovering it was just a BDR, I tested old and new on XRF at work, and the results showed a difference in the composition of the materials used. The newer ones are not the same as the older ones, which can be verified through various means like visually comparing them under proper light, and XRF.

[@jacquesmertens3369]

@@Stryder_The_Nite_Owl Your comment is interesting, but also confusing. Have you compared an old M-disc against a recent one? And have you then compared the recent M-disc against a regular BDR? Were the new M-disc and regular BDR identical? Would you mind providing more detailed information, or could you post the results somewhere?

[@ajphototrekker]

Great video. I’m trying to decide on backups right now. I’m in my 60s so I think I’ll be fine with something that can last at least 50 more years.

[@manbu7849]

what is about Ritek M-Disc DVD

[@rodfer5406]

Yes, it does matter

[@powersource1988]

So guys, is m-disk still a very good media for long term storage? I want to make a solid backup for myself, which i can trust to be a backup if my backup fail!

[@radovanhop]

Yes, I have regular DVD+Rs recorded in 2006 and they read fine. I think M-Disc is a great solution for long-term storage.

[@powersource1988]

@@radovanhop Same. But the hdd died from that time :p

[@SRN42069]

I have legit Maxell Japanese M-Discs they have a very distinct copper/gold tint so yes the color part is true.

[@EpicWeightloss]

That's true about your discs but doesn't prove anything for newer M discs.

[@prutser67]

So we can start a class action lawsuit against Verbatim if our discs are unreadable after a couple of years.

[@jupeterczech1340]

Well said, FYI, ASUS burn M-DISCs 👍🇬🇧

[@Mae-nr7wr]

i think only the very early writers couldn't write on m-disk, thats about it. im guessing the only real way to actually know is to find a player that cant write to m-disk and test them on these new m-disks to finally dispel the rumors

[@JamesSmith-ix5jd]

Considering how niche the whole thing is I doubt anyone will do something like that.

[@Mae-nr7wr]

@@JamesSmith-ix5jd i actually noticed how CDs and DVDs also look different now after my original comment. so i think they are all being manufactured with a different finished look

[@JamesSmith-ix5jd]

@@Mae-nr7wr I think the quality of writers and discs is now lower as well, because they are less popular and manufacturers can't make profit selling the same items they were selling in 2010, so they lower quality and increase price, this way it's still profitable for them to sell some units here and there. In my area I can only buy ASUS BD writer, and some unbranded Chinese junk is also available, no Pioneer or Sony is available.

[@producer_ben]

Reddit. If you believe what is typed on Reddit, without researching, you're a fool.

[@PerSkeles]

If they only last couple of hundred years that's enough for me ;)

[@malteseowl]

I suggest that most people are "playing" with Technology that really they know little or nothing about (I, for one, plead GUILTY) and therefore need to learn. The problem comes with finding reputable and knowledgeable teachers, who hopefully have no financial ulterior motive aligned with their teaching. My answer therefore, is to spread my net, catch whatever I can, filter, and disregard the chaff. Fingers crossed !!

[@nutsackmania]

Just paying attention in school can go a long way here.

[@user-dm7co8qy1t]

Good job

[@life107familyfitnessboxing8]

LOL DEBUNKING THE M DISC MYTH LOL

[@rodfer5406]

Good

[@trevorsartwork]

M-disk in animal crossing is a scam.

[@kwinzman]

Sorry but the video is kinda besides the point. Ok, the change in color and the change in MID doesn't prove anything. But you haven't addressed at all the point that for DVD-R the MDISC technology was clearly something unique because regular DVD-R used organic recording layers, while the MDISCs were not. But BD-Rs always use inorganic recording technology (except for the exotic bd-r lth variant), so the accusation was that MDISC now was just a brand for blu rays rather than some unique technology that gives more longevity.

[@kwinzman]

Okay, I see you have multiple videos on that topic on your channel. It would have been a great if you added a hint about the other videos in a stickied comment or in the video description.

[@JamesSmith-ix5jd]

Gold vs silver record side is a huge red flag, change in process/formula, yes exactly, and that is what makes them regular blue rays, not M discs anymore. There should be some investigation or anti-trust inquiry into all of this.

[@OhVeryWell]

taken from m disc wiki: "With the first-generation DVD M-DISCs, it was difficult to determine which was the writable side of the disc due to being near fully translucent, until coloring and later labels similar to that on standard DVD discs was added to discs to help distinguish the sides preventing user error. " Perhaps that explains the gold silver debacle

[@EpicWeightloss]

I don't see it as a red flag, especially when the M discs I'm using are triple layer 100GB discs. I'd expect a triple layer disc to look different than a single layer but even if it did look the same, it's still just a color. You used to be able to buy different color CDs but they still only held 700MB and it was still an organic dye material.

[@valcaron]

The M-Discs I've bought are neither gold nor silver. The data side is more of like a very deep, dark-chocolate hue.

[@VVayVVard]

@@EpicWeightloss Different colors on the writable side for a CD are not relevant for capacity, but can be relevant for long-term stability. They typically indicate the use of different dyes (pthalocyanine being light green and the most stable) as well as different metals for the reflective layer (gold being most stable). Source: an article by Joe Iraci, a senior scientist from the Canadian Conservation Institute, titled "Longevity of Recordable CDs, DVDs and Blu-rays" (which in turn cites other articles by the same author).

[@Stryder_The_Nite_Owl]

Your video, 12:30 timestamp, there is evidence to support this. You are just blind. Having been exposed to this problem at work, buying newer 'M-Disc" media and discovering it was just a BDR, I tested old and new on XRF at work, and the results showed a difference in the composition of the materials used. The newer ones are not the same as the older ones, which can be verified through various means like visually comparing them under proper light, and XRF.

[@jacquesmertens3369]

Thanks for wasting my time. You said you would address the controversies but all you did was read someone else's post, without adding any information whatsoever. To summarize what you needed nearly 15 minutes for: "They say it's a scam, but I don't believe them, therefore it isn't a scam." Very convincing. Not.