Are Orcs Redeemable? | Nature and Origins of Tolkien's Orcs

[@GirlNextGondor]

I've been seeing confusion around something I reference at 2:33, so to clarify: In Tolkien's earliest writings he used the form "Melko" for the character who would later be referred to as Melkor or Morgoth. Yes, Melko sounds much sillier than Morgoth. No, I did not make the same typo in every relevant quotation from Book of Lost Tales etc. My data suggests that a simple Google search could resolve the apparent discrepancy in less than a third of the time it would take to write a cutting comment about it. 😜

[@TheMHB199]

I've never heard of Melko before. Listening to this at work so not even reading and it was fairly obvious after less than 30 seconds that you were specifically referring to tolkeins very early works. You also said something along the lines of 'who would later be known as morgoth'. Doesn't take much to put 2 and 2 together and figure it out. Ignore the cutting comments. They know not that they shouldn't play with sharp objects.

[@williambodin5359]

Never underestimate the willingness, nay, eagerness of some to be snarky while trying to show off that they know more than someone else about something.

[@tommyescalante6181]

Interesting

[@ahennessy7998]

Melko sounds like a great dog name. If I ever get a dog I'm gonna name it melko.

[@emanuelosorio9610]

Us deep fans got it, don't worry

[@mattmccartney5996]

There are your garden variety Tolkien fans and then there are the "orcish ontology" Tolkien fans. Whole freakin' other level. Magnificent final boss geekery. I bend the knee in awe and respect.

[@fredkrissman6527]

Thanx for saying it for me, & better than me!

[@GirlNextGondor]

I've heard distant tales of the fabled 'rich fulfilling life' that includes 'active socializing,' but I suspect they are just rumors; who would even seek such a thing out when you could spend so many blissful hours using 5 different-colored highlighters to annotate "Myths Transformed" yet again? 🤣

[@fernandorivera6117]

I always confuse ontology with oncology. Do orcs get cancer?

[@randyjh82]

D'accord ❤

[@whynottalklikeapirat]

Hmm - the Limbogame lead character I notice. I worked briefly with the devs of that game when it was still in production. Good choice, I still keep a bunch of framed inspirational screenshots around somewhere 🙌

[@Treiundzwanzig]

There's a great song in the animated Return of the King movie, where the Orcs sing of their torment of being forced into war by Sauron, which fits their loathing of their original dark master. "Where there's a whip, there is way. We don't wanna go to war today, but the lord with the nash says nay, nay, nay. We're gonna march all day, all day, all day, cause where there's a whip there's a way."

[@AnimeSunglasses]

typo check? nash?

[@Treiundzwanzig]

@@AnimeSunglasses *lash

[@JoeQuake]

Gorbag: "...if we get a chance, you and me'll slip off and set up somewhere on our own with a few trusty lads...where there's good loot nice and handy..." Shagrat: "Ah...Like old times." from chapter 10, The Choices of Master Samwise This Gorbag and Shagrat discussion always reminds me of Forrest Gump and Bubba talking about going into the shrimping business together after the war. The discussion humanizes them. (Makes me rather uncomfortable considering we're supposed to want them exterminated from the world.)

[@knightofcaliban146]

I mean, setting up a group of bandits is categorically different from taking over a shrimping business.

[@jessicawurm23]

@Knight of Caliban Right. They're not going to set up a garden and become farmers. Anything they do will only be for self-profit, and taking pleasure in the brutalized of innocent folk.

[@Disgruntled_Dave]

I've always found that passage one of the most interesting in the books. It's so rare that we get a look into the actual lives of orcs, and on both occasions (I _think_ there are only 2) the dialogue alone indicates a whole world which is often and easily overlooked.

[@JoeQuake]

@@knightofcaliban146 Tell that to the shrimp.🙂

[@Amadeus8484]

Evil beings are capable of friendship but it is to do evil things. Ironically their redeeming qualities make them MORE evil.

[@CULater000]

I imagine there’s a special section of the Halls of Mandos set apart for the souls of orcs, continuously aided by Maiar of Nienna and Este; something like the ‘intensive care unit’, next to the fea of elves killed in torment 🏥 I think the creation of the orcs is the moment of Melkor’s ultimate fall, a violation of the children of Eru by trapping them in bodies so twisted and corrupted they have to obey him

[@Bhoddisatva]

I like this and think its the most cohesive answer to the orc's dilemma. We know that orcs think and plan and hope and fear like the Children of Eru. Its just seems that the proportion of such sentiments are vastly different and enforced by the wills of Dark Lords, IMO. It does not mean they are incapable of higher sentiments and they may very well be in times without the whip of a dark lord to drive them. Times we have no real examples of.

[@Laucron]

I like to think the same. Though more than trapping them within twisted physical bodies, I like to think he twisted their essence to such unrecognizable extents that their physicality began to mirror it. Especially considering how much a corrupted "soul" seems to affect your looks in the long run, taking into account Gollum and the orc-like men. Anycase I guess that would just make the orc ward in Mandos' place high security. Should be fixable in the long run

[@somerandomschmuck2547]

Okay I know this is probably far from how it actually work, but now I’m just imagining a bunch of Elves, Ork, and Humans sitting at table in a sort of weird spirit realm hospital cafeteria all sitting in an uncomfortable silence after a discussion led to people mentioning how they died, and all of them realizing they all killed at least one other person there in a battle.

[@louisvictor3473]

Or maybe they just go straight to Eru like humans (since they don't seem immortal like the elves but mortal like humans), and daddy sorts them out.

[@Amadeus8484]

They probably go to the Void to join Morgoth and Sauron in the final battle. After that however, they have a long recovery in the Halls of Mandos. And I do mean Long. Like another age or something.

[@GuyUnderTheBridge]

Yes, Orcs can be redeemed based solely based on Tolkien’s system of evil, life and afterlife. However, due to their nature, a redeemed Orc would be so rare as to not not have any effect or mention. Possibly Mandos dealt with their souls on a case-by-case basis being so rare.

[@BenfengWang]

In the story roast mutton, trolls did told about "Poor little blighter, let him go." and " I caught him anyway." ,so they did showed some mild humanity, although in the movie trolls are just pure murderers and robbers.

[@finrod55]

Tolkien’s remark that Orcs are “within the law” speaks volumes. Perhaps orcs are beyond being able to explicitly repent evil acts, but since they are not responsible for their ferocious natures, an enlightened and compassionate being would see them as at least eligible for mercy. Being ‘’within the law” means they cannot rightly be tortured, or killed without cause, or exterminated en masse. Here, “Redeemable” is ambiguous. Orcs perhaps cannot merit forgiveness, but a merciful Eru who understands their plight, can in some measure forgive them and reform them after death.

[@davidhimmelfahrt3732]

Good thought

[@squaeman_2644]

Sauron is most like Faust or Judas who chose to follow evil and be sent to Hell. The orcs were originally elves captured and twisted into spies willing and unwilling for the dark lord, they were broken down to beast level so that they would more easily be controlled. I can see how only Eru and the Valar could show an iota of mercy... Though that doesn't make orcs good creatures...

[@EriktheRed2023]

Between the movies and the Silmarillion, the creation myth of orcs being twisted elves really has permeated even casual enjoyers of Middle-earth. My own sister looked at me with great skepticism as I tried as best I could to mention every theory of their origin that Tolkien came up with, and she still does not believe that he never settled on a solution. Curse you, movie-Saruman! *shakes fist impotently* I was a little surprised that orcs have short lifespans. I mean it makes sense, but I don't know of any textual evidence. Gorbag and Shagrat can come across as quite old. They talk about how the Nazgûl are 'His favourites nowadays', and about 'old times' when G&S lived as brigands rather than slave soldiers. Their mention of a 'Great Siege' is probably the Last Alliance's siege of Barad-dûr, which they may have heard tell of. But it could sound like they were there, what they describe as the 'bad old times'. (The Choices of Master Samwise, The Two Towers). But none of that is conclusive. It just left me with a particular impression.

[@hostile_prof]

And it even spread outside of Tolkien in the Elder Scrolls Orcs were the elven followers their god Trinimac when he was tortured to the point that he became the Daedric Prince Malacath

[@douglasharley2440]

q: what is the best friday? a: a friday when girlnextgondor posts! 😎👍

[@GirlNextGondor]

🥰

[@valaraukar_595]

Before I watch the video, this is my take on the subject: if we consider that Orcs are corrupted Elves (as per the Silmarillion), then I think they are only redeemable in Mandos and the process is achieved only at the breaking of Arda - I guess that says a lot about my view of Feanor as well. If they are corrupted Men, then their soul would leave the confines of the world forever and their fates are sealed so to speak. Again, it's just my take. Let's see what Lexi thinks.

[@GirlNextGondor]

Short version: I pretty much agree (or at least I think this account agrees best with the mythology taken as a whole). I didn't get too deep into the mortality question in the video but I think it's likely that the Orc genome has a hefty dose of Man in it, and Tolkien's general view seemed to be that any Mannish descendant defaults to mortality (there are, as always, exceptions). So the lot of each individual Orkish soul would be left up to Eru, who, one would imagine, would be able to account for the disadvantages Morgoth imposed on them.

[@Laucron]

I mean, I'm no expert but wouldn't that fit with eschatological conceptions within christianity? Even the greatest sinners may be judged and delivered from their punishment when the end comes through divine intervention. Considering Tolkien's inspiration and the fact that due to being corrupted and not created an orc HAS to have a spiritual essence, they should at the end of it all await in purgatory (or wherever men's souls go to if the man theory rings true) and have some form of involvement when Eru's equivalent of the apocalypse transpires. Maybe a return to their original state or something of the likes, who knows.

[@Enerdhil]

So the resurrected orcs would fight with the good guys in the Dagor Dagorath? That doesn't make sense.

[@valaraukar_595]

@@Enerdhil Why not? If they are redeemable, then they would revert to their fëar`s initial state and not be considered Orcs anymore. Morgoth can still have his Balrogs and dragons to do battle.

[@Enerdhil]

@@valaraukar_595 First of all, "redeemable" used in this situation is tied to the Christian concept of redemption, meaning it is too late for anyone to be redeemed after he/she dies. You can think what you want, but I am sure that Tolkien meant that Orcs could theoretically be redeemed while they were living. Personally, I think he would have been better off NOT commenting on that topic. It just opened a Pandora's box of all sorts of problems he ended up having to explain and justify, which he could NOT do to his own satisfaction before he passed away.

[@larrykuenning5754]

Have you seen Tom Shippey's observations about orcish access to moral concepts? I forget which of his books it's in, but he gets the idea from the Gorbag/Shagrat conversation at the end of The Two Towers. Looking at the unconscious Frodo, the orcs infer that he had a larger companion who abandoned him when he became useless -- this they call a "typical elvish trick." This, says Shippey, shows they have access to the same moral principles that apply to everyone -- that, for instance, you don't just abandon a companion that way. But then they go on to talk about one of their own number who was caught by Shelob. "How we laughed!" To which Shippey says, "What can we say but 'Typical orcish trick'?" To which I suppose we might add that the projection of one's own faults onto Those Other Guys (as in "typical elvish trick") is a Typical Speaking-People Trick.

[@adelkaizbest2038]

@@larrykuenning5754 I think it shows that they have awareness of what is moral and what is not moral. They know that leaving an ally behind is bad, but they themselves will do it anyway, bcs they don't care. Like each of them individually know that they wouldn't want to be left behind to die, so it's not nice to leave anybody else to die (Like: Don't do unto others what you don't want done unto you.), but they hate even their own kin so much that they simply don't care about their suffering. They will even laugh about it because, by nature and nurture - at least when there is a dark lord present, in power and active - orcs hate themselves, hate their kin, hate their masters, hate their enemies, hate the war, hate peace, hate their allies...

[@lilgrublet]

Your conclusion concerning the question of Orkish redemption is absolutely brilliant! Well researched. Carefully thought out and balanced. Bravo, I am indeed happy with the idea of their doom being almost assured unless Eru himself should change their fate. Perhaps, when " the World is renewed" this shall come to pass. Thank you SO much for this 😊

[@pinstripe4254]

I know it’s extremely unlikely especially with what you have said here. But I do appreciate the thought of a solitary Uruk who fled after losing the battle of Helms deep and was freed from Sauron’s control when he fell. This Uruk once freed creates a small shack out in a forest, clears some trees. And begins trying to survive. At first he’s almost mindless, but as the years pass he grows more self willed, stronger, smarter. His rage passes him as he creates a life. Till one day a village sets up nearby. At first the Uruk feels that old bloodlust come up. He takes up his weapons, approaches a small group hunting in the forest, but then stops. Why would he kill these men? At first he stopped (he reassures himself) because they outnumbered him, they would have killed him if he attacked. But as the years go on he realizes he has no desire to kill these people. At least not these specific people, he has his own life. However one day a group of his once brothers comes to his lands. They still followed their old ways. They were weak and starving, but just as filled with Malice as ever. With a mix of wishing to protect his own lands, and wishing to protect the villagers that didn’t even know of him, he kills the orcs. They had him in numbers, but he was strong and quick. Now I don’t think you could ever call this Uruk selfless, after all his entire race was created out of malice, but he’s capable of care, even if it’s a selfish caring

[@davidhimmelfahrt3732]

You are humanizing orcs. Which is unrealistic. Orcs are by the natural constitution of their body and so on, not capable of pity, empathy.

[@crispierjay]

With your permission, id like to work on and publish that exact uruk story....I wish I had money right now to pay you fairly. I've always liked that idea in the Tolkien religion.... Seeing the parallels of divinity and God's plans always escaping the best analysis and foresight and wherewithall

[@user-er8le9hn6v]

Even in the case where orcs are wholly dominated and of no independent will at all, it would seem the possibility of their redemption remains. It is certainly the case that Melkor and Sauron are redeemable, and one imagines in comparison such a turn of events, the redemption of the orcs would be a comparatively trivial change in the eyes of Eru. Indeed, where it might seem the most impossible, we might even imagine some pitiful orc on his watch who sees Frodo and Sam ascending mount doom, and despite the force of the ring's power, in that moment turns away from them in an unwritten and unnoticed eucatastrophy. Ultimately, it is the prominence of eucatastrophy in the work that suggests to me that not only can orcs be saved, but it is not all too unlikely that in the long history of middle earth, one has been redeemed.

[@kevinrussell1144]

Did JRRT state or imply somewhere that Melkor and Sauron were redeemable? I must have missed that. Source?????

[@squaeman_2644]

If Melkor was redeemable why was he cast into the void?

[@grigori9061]

⁠@@squaeman_2644 because he chooses not to be redeemed. Just because redemption is possible, doesn’t mean the person will ever choose to work toward it. To redeem oneself you first have to feel regret and the dark lords regret nothing but their downfalls.

[@gillianstapleton7741]

@@grigori9061 In the Silmarillion, it is observed that, after his first fall, Melkor 'became a liar without shame'. Tolkien's choice of 'became' rather than 'was' signifies that Melkor wasn't always without shame, nor was he always a liar. He chose that path and could have potentially relinquished it for his redemption.

[@mingthan7028]

Redemption and Salvation is between Lord Eru and them, it's our job to arrange the meeting.

[@mattdavy-cripwell8355]

Really enjoyed this video, I’ve always found it interesting how Tolkien never really settled on an origin for the Orcs

[@fostermoody]

I've been mulling over an idea for a story for a while: a rather Tookish hobbit lady is out for a hike on the borders of the Shire when she comes across a cave. The spirit of Bullroarer overtakes her and she ventures inside, and comes across the remains of two groups of goblins who massacred each other. She hears some mewling and discovers a baby goblin, who she decides she must now raise as a foundling.

[@StormCrow702]

Oh man please release this or post a link to it, it sounds, if done right an entire saga of overcoming evil with nurture. Something beautiful.😮😊

[@Disgruntled_Dave]

. . . . Unfortunately, the hobbit-lady was a Sackville-Baggins, and the baby goblin grew into an even worse fiend than its progenitors.

[@guyr3618]

This must be how the Sackville-Bagginses came to be.

[@Disgruntled_Dave]

@@guyr3618 Aw, shit. I made an S-B joke too, but yours is better as it implies one of their ancestors mated with a goblin.

[@sittonpretty6146]

I would read that!

[@Pixis1]

Great video. I agree with your assessment. I think it's possible for an orc to be redeemed but the deck is very much stacked against them. The corrupting influence of Morgoth, the power of Sauron's dominating will, the war-like society they're born into, and their own orkish nature would make it very difficult for them to escape their fate. I think an orc living in some isolated corner of the Misty Mountains during a time when no Dark Lord is active could be theoretically good (or at least neutral). There are a lot of factors working against them though. Side note: I'm currently playing a half-orc character in D&D that's facing this very dilemma. He's forever torn between his two natures - one an intellectual who wants to live a life of peace and the other a brutish barbarian prone to violent rage. His teammates are all too happy to use him as a weapon and point him at the enemy but still sometimes tease him with anti-orc jokes and slurs (there's a running gag where they accuse him of eating babies). He's trying to be a good person but doesn't feel fully accepted by the group or by society. It's an interesting philosophical problem that I wish Tolkien had explored more in his writing.

[@EriktheRed2023]

I guess the closest to that exploration is Sméagol. He gets treated harshly by Sam, and with more kindness by Frodo, and was exiled from his home. Though that may be too dark for your purpose here.

[@marieroberts5458]

Wow, years ago my friends and I were in a DnD group where one of the guys was running a half orc cleric. He was a very kind soul, but he hated evil. We were all running at least three different characters in the same long running adventure, and it was a blast, we even wound up with a very sweet bugbear who had a crush on my magic user: Boyda! Drop Alysoune right now! Ok. *drop* *umph I go into the mud* Group spends the next 5 years chortling over me getting dropped by giant bugbear. Good times.

[@jacobsedlack1173]

I think in a small creative respect sort of way Tolkien would've approved of D&D player character Orcs and Half-Orcs who are aggressive by nature but only as "Evil" as the person at the table is playing them roleplays.

[@TarMody]

Spiritual incarnation, sub-creation and fall. These three concepts/phenomenon are a system that works very well for Melkor in Tolkien mythology. In my opinion, the fact that Melkor, who could not have Secret Fire and did not have the ability to create in a real sense, created orcs by transforming them from elves with this systematic and as a result, experienced a decline over time, is very compatible with Tolkien's most dominant theme in this mythology. This theory of the genesis of orcs also explains how, with their free will (from their elven origins), they survived even when Melkor and Sauron were temporarily pacified. If we approach the theories of the formation of orcs through the Music of the Ainur, it can be thought that the orcs were formed as a result of the formation of the melody about the elves from the Children of Ilúvatar added to the third theme (I assume it came directly from Eru) with the melody of Melkor. According to this, if orcs can be recycled, it can only be possible by removing this tune that Melkor has added to the music, that is, by withdrawing the spiritual power and will that he incarnated on them while corrupting them. Theoretically. But it is debatable whether Melkor has the ability and power to do this even if he wants to.

[@GirlNextGondor]

Something I hope to explore later is the (relatively late) emergence of the Ents' origin story, and why Tolkien didn't lean on it for the Orc, or even the Dwarf, situation. The idea that the Ents and similar unclassifiable creatures emerged out of certain themes and harmonies that the Valar themselves might not have perceived in the moment, and were given life and being along with the rest of Ea, seems a great way to explain a *lot* of discrepancies. I've seen similar accounts proposed to explain Bombadil 😁

[@pedrovargas2181]

@@GirlNextGondor Tom is Illúvatar taking incarnate vacations. Or maybe Oromë. Maybe Tolkien knew. Or not.

[@HairTiesForGlorfindel]

Happy new year, Lexi and GNG fam 💕🎉

[@bigsarge2085]

Excellently done study on orcish ontology, potential physiology, and psychology!

[@stephenward4418]

Lexi, you've redeemed me by me being able to watch this excellent video.

[@GirlNextGondor]

Out here in the internet, doing Este's work 🤣 Glad you enjoyed it!

[@joseraulcapablanca8564]

Great stuff as ever GNG, I like your mixed origin idea. Since Tolkien himself was never able to irrevocably settle on an origin or ultimate fate for the orcs, maybe we can in the spirit of “suspension of disbelief.” Suspend our knowledge and choose to believe in an origin and fate that we find believable. I personally, though no Catholic find the idea of redemption so important to the professor, that I must believe them as you so eloquently put it at least theoretically redeemable. Thanks and keep up the good work.

[@TurinTuram]

interesting video. I like the theory about orcs being originally a patchwork of many species including human, elves, maias, etc. Also I think they are not simply a Morgoth creation, "they are Morgoth". Even when Morgoth is not around anymore. Same thing with other beings like Glaurung for example whom is acting independently but deep in is core, fundamentally, is the dark lord. Moving, using an energy that Morgoth share, transanding eras, diminushing himself in the same occasion. A simulacre of free will.

[@strocau]

One of your best videos ever! As for the hypothetical scenario, we know that Elven education of non-Elves doesn't always go smoothly...

[@lisacook8235]

I recently downloaded Morgoth's Ring. Tolkien was truly a master of the art of the retcon. However the Orcs seemed to have stumped even him. It seems he came to dislike the notion of Orcs being corrupted Elves, though it removes the problem of Melkor creating life; but to my surprise (unless I missed something) he says nothing of another Mumak in the room: Elves are immortal and Orcs are not. This to me is the real problem with the Elvish theory of Orc Ontology. How could Morgoth take away what Eru gave any more than the Valar could grant immortality to humans?

[@ricardoandre7049]

Instead of taking the immortality of the fea from the orcs, Melkor corrupted orcs hroa so much that they decay way faster than the Avari or Elves in middle earth, this way they are not imortal as the separation of fea and hroa still happened although it was "forced" due to Melkors corruption. Now this poses the question of those orcs who were born as orcs. In my head they go to mandos and every Valar and Maia just doesn't speak about them to not burden the Eldar with their tecnically kinslaying in the millions of Avari currupted elves. (I hold the Avari as the most likely suspect of elves who were captured and currupted by Melkor). Due to how bad the backlash was at Aqualonde. It just makes the Valar omit information out of love for the elves, something I wholy believe they are capable of doing. Imagine those of the Noldor that are warriors who came from Haman originally and participated in Aqualonde and endured the 1st age until the 3rd in middle earth slaying orcs. Only to discover that they tecnically have been slaying kin. I can fully expect a elf.xd stoped working

[@fostermoody]

I think that's solved by orcs being immortal. I figure they don't die on their own, either of disease or age, just from violence, which their culture is replete with. Which is why the goblins in the mountain caves recognized Orcrist and Glamdring: some of them had seen it in person. Illness and injury affects them, meaning most of them live in some degree of constant pain, probably part of what twists them psychologically. I imagine them having their own wing in the halls of Mandos, which they rarely are able to leave because of how twisted their souls are by the time they get there.

[@istari0]

That is one of the reasons why Tolkien in his later writings moved towards a human origin for orcs. As powerful as Melkor was, that was one ability he should not have. In Morgoth's Ring, Tolkien wrote that orcs were mortal and their natural life spans were shorter than those of the Edain.

[@romaliop]

Another way to look at this is to ask: can something that is still redeemable be an orc? Or in other words, would Melkor be satisfied with his orcs if there was a chance that some lesser power than his own could still revert them back to what they once were to any meaningful degree?

[@DreamersOfReality]

I doubt Melkor had that kind of power. I doubt Eru would have allowed him his "tantrum" if he could actually do any meaningful damage.

[@sarahhirsch8919]

You know, it could be that the orcs that were more with it did not stick around to get exterminated and instead made their escape, while the ones that were still around were so traumatized by what they experienced while under Sauron's influence that they just lost it, which is potentially terribly sad.

[@thijsbos]

I really love your interpretation! Very insightful. Orcs also fought in the battle of the Last Alliance, if you believe that one line. What I find very interesting is a theory that the Orcs were elves who were tortured so much their Fea was chased out of their Hroa, and thus incapable of redemption, while still have a sort of sentience. Also, do you think Balrogs like Durins Bane could have influence over Orcs like the Moria orcs too? Hence their apparant organisation

[@GirlNextGondor]

Thanks! Glad you found it useful ❤️ I think I see hints of something like that theory in the writings in Morgoth's Ring - Tolkien at one point seems to propose that at the point Orcs became so corrupted that their natures turned inherently toward evil, Eru would stop providing them with souls. But in another place he walks that back, saying that even though Finrod expresses something like this view in the Athrabeth, he was probably too optimistic 🤣 which does sound like Finrod tbh. Assuming Durin's Bane is a fallen Maia formerly in active service to Morgoth - something like one of his captains - it absolutely makes sense that he (?) would be able to control the local orcs. The Witch-king seems to have a similar effect during the Siege of Gondor if I'm remembering right, and he's just a lowly Ring-enslaved atan, so certainly the balrog should have the ability!

[@thijsbos]

@@GirlNextGondor ALL of your videos are useful! (As far as in depth Tolkienien analysis can have a use) You not only put out your ideas in a very elaborate and thorough way, on top of that it's also in a fun and lighthearted way, that makes you laugh and nod and you reference pop culture. You are probably the best Tolkien analyst I've seen on youtube (and that includes presentation in analyses). I missed the part where Finrod said Eru would stop providing them with souls. That sounds also very plausible. And Finrod is a smart guy, optimistic though he is. That domination sounds a lot like that wordless communication/domination thingy that the Ainur do that you made a video about a while back. I forgot the name. If Orcs do have a soul, it seems to me it must be a very weak one (probably due to their tortured nature) voor a Maia like Sauron or even a Vala to be able to control absolute masses of them. Are their gradients in souls? Like that Thrush and Raven in the Hobbit? Can they have 'weaker' souls?

[@Jizzlewobbwtfcus]

This has to be the most detailed and intellectually eloquent Middle Earth channel I have come across. Your literary knowledge & more advanced linguistic commentary really makes the brain work and in turn is superb. You have a new addict to your channel : ]

[@specialnewb9821]

The Red Book is the best imo, don't get me wrong she's good but Red Book is just unbelievable.

[@shoulderpyro]

That outro art is so adorable yet at the same time brings to mind one of the most horrific acts in Elven history at the same time (x

[@AmyBrueckman]

Welp, now I need someone to direct me towards a fanfic of a docile orc raised by elves hahaha

[@DavetheNord]

Super interesting! Hope all is well in your world. :) KZbin notifications running a little late it seems. :D

[@porpoisepork]

The Orcs embody the interplay of Nature and Nurture, I think. The original Elves corrupted by Morgoth into the Orcs (going with Silmarillion canon here) were changed in their Nature as much as a limited being like Morgoth was able without the aid of Eru. The initial corruption led to millennia of torment for the new-spawn Orcs by their predecessors, culminating in the loveless, violent creatures that the first Elven kingdoms slay with abandon.

[@GirlNextGondor]

I don't find anything too implausible about Orcs being mainly elf-descended (other than the lifespan issue) - physical (maybe genetic?) manipulation plus generational trauma plus the deceits of the Enemy seem quite sufficient to produce widescale corruption. But I'm torn on which I prefer: the Elves, especially eg the Sindar of Beleriand, killing this new danger without bothering about questions of sentience or origin (they didn't bother to stop and ask about the Dwarves, after all), or the idea that they *did* recognize some kind of kinship, but rapidly concluded that the safest *and kindest* course of action would be to put their tormented kin out of their misery as efficiently as possible. Both are pleasingly ironic. 😊

[@bronzevampire]

@@GirlNextGondor The big issue about orc/goblin life span would be the goblins recognizing Glamdring and Orcrist. If they did not have an extended life span how could they recognize swords that have been missing for over 6500 years. I forget which Tolkien letter but he did say something about head orc/goblin might be Maiar, which could explain how some select goblins in goblin town recognized the swords.

[@emtiger3]

So.....I only just now viewed this video. How I missed it I don't know. Had I viewed it sooner I would not have troubled you or our fellowship on Patreon. How amazing is my latest suggestion getting the vote this month. You answered my main question in this video. The canon simply does not allow redemption for orc-kind. Though your example of an orc foundling being raised away from cruelty is hopeful to me. Please forgive my embarrassing faux pas in stirring all this up again, needlessly. Please forgive, too, my ongoing and unflagging belief in the possibility of orc redemption in Arda and/or Mandos. I simply must believe in it, canon or no. Well done video, Lexi. Very illuminating. Thanks!

[@TheRoguePrince0]

If the traitor, and galactic mass murderer darth vader, can be redeemed then the orcs can be redeemed as well.

[@magicalgirlcoco]

Fantastic video! The subject of how Orcs fit into the world has so many layers to unpack, and the deeper you go, the more there is.

[@rogerbrownreacts8528]

Orcs could make good business men if re-education and a replaced value system of competitive business over Darwinism.

[@GirlNextGondor]

Shagrat drives a hard bargain.

[@TheJollyWizard]

I've always thought about orcs a kind of horcrux of Morgoth, because he can't create life only twist

[@anchuisneoir3973]

13:36 killed me "if we get a chance, you and me’ll slip off" Now I know what Gorbag was at.

[@lexmusiclab]

Wait, you're telling me baby orcs dont get delivered in bundles by fell beasts? 🤔

[@GirlNextGondor]

At this point, I would not be surprised if someone uncovered a lost half-finished essay in which Tolkien outlines this possibility 😂

[@ishmaelforester9825]

Treebeard says the Trolls were a mockery of the Ents, created to protect the woods from the Children. But they inhabit them in terror. I think it was Treebeard. Brilliant videos by the way.

[@josephd.5524]

The late, great Terry Pratchett addressed this topic in one of his Discworld novels! Unseen Academicals stars an orc from the far mountains who had been found and brought up in a library by a kindly disposed vampire. Considering their rapid growth, it makes sense that an orc would be able to learn quick, and Nutt becomes a bibliophile overnight. Coming out the other side a few years later and he's an unbelievably erudite little gentleman who has to pretend to be a goblin while trying to find his way into greater society, as all orcs were thought to have been hunted down an exterminated after their Dark Lord of ages past was defeated. Then he discovers football. I want you to think about just how incredible an orc would be at football. That's an aggression outlet if I ever heard of one!

[@thebrotherskrynn]

Fascinating video, as to the theoretical Orc in question, it is an interesting series of hypothesis, though I think the closest we'll ever come to it in the actual canon of sorts would have to be Gollum himself. And to be honest I do think it highly doubtful that a Orc could very well wholly reject the influence of either of the Dark Lords.

[@Ar_Ator]

I like how in the early phase of Middle Earth the inspiration from norse mythology is quite clear, with Melko/Morgoth being more mischievous than outright evil, the Valar being somewhat flawed and being capable of reproducing and there being a lot of different creatures and spirits with unclear origins

[@Requiemslove]

A very good hypothesis on the origins of the orcs. As a long time LOTR fan I genuinely enjoyed this.

[@Rakhamon]

Does Tolkien not at some point actually talk about orc redemption in one of his letters? I could have sworn it was discussed in one of the biographies I read when I was young. Fantastic and erudite video as always!

[@frankshailes3205]

Yes, I vaguely recall reading that in the Letters, also some discussion of whether Orcs are immortal like Elves.

[@EriktheRed2023]

Letter 153, a draft, Tolkien writes of Orcs: "I nearly wrote 'irredeemably bad'; but that would be going too far."

[@themightypen1530]

This is easily the deepest and most detailed Tolkien channel on KZbin. Well done.

[@TolkienLorePodcast]

Love the analysis here, going deep into some philosophical issues that definitely deserved a good discussion.

[@TheWileybighead]

This wasn’t just a KZbin video on a popular topic to get views. This was a well written essay and I loved it!

[@jaytucker7873]

Always a wonderful day when you drop a new video! Thank you! I'll hit the like button like a goblin drummer going down down to goblin town!

[@jeffhinman7570]

I subscribe to a couple other LOTR channels and thought, "What more can this person add"? But you do. I like how you use the text and your insights and interpretation. You have a good style. So I subscribed to another LOTR channel!

[@GirlNextGondor]

Thank you!

[@MetalSeasSiren]

New subscriber. I always wondered about this. Great video and channel.

[@calcifiedinnerbaldur]

Wow, not finished with the video yet but I must compliment you on how well you present the information of Tolkien's lore. I read the Silmarillion years ago when I was only barely literate so it's nice to hear some of the ideas from there presented here.

[@grantboardman7880]

I was always under the impression that Goblins/Orcs were made by Morgoth in anticipation of Elves and Men, kind of like Aule making Dwarves...

[@DavidRoberts]

Oh, good, a nice easy lore question video to open the year ;-p Looking forward to the analysis and snark...

[@shanenolan5625]

Oh, I live the art of mordor. Volcanic plane . With smoke effect .. ( edit ) and the lady with the bird

[@allisonkreutzberg6079]

Great video on a very hard subject to tackle. Best I’ve seen! Well done 🎉

[@nathanblue5548]

I really like this video because it goes more in depth than "orcs are just evil, let's stop talking about it" like other videos and analysis I have seen.

[@bedlaskybedla6361]

Awesome video as always! I especially enjoyed that part with orcish baby rased by an elf :D. One question: You mentioned at 23:55 that men undergone darkening of the spirit after commiting some nameless crime at the dawn of time. I read about this in Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth and I have impression from this text that Eru punish men by this darkening of the spirit because they renounced him because of lies of Melkor. Eru stopped speak to them, their livespan was shorten. I always saw this as unjust move from Eru. He is more wise, he have greater knowledge, so shouldn't he try to explain to men that Melkor is a liar and manipulator, explain them their fate etc. instead of his offended reaction and vindictive punishment? You speak about nameless crime - In Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth it's clear that this crime is renouncing of Eru - so I wonder, do you have more source on this topic than just Athrabeth? You also mentioned that men previously renounce life voluntarily - I didn't remember that this is in Athrabeth, I always though this was only gift to Númenoreans. If there is more about this topic I would be really interested!

[@misterno-ice-guy8082]

My understanding of Tolkien's vision for Arda from the Sillmarillion, (based partially on the knowledge Tolkien, like many authors, wrote cyclically, or analogously), is that Eru created the Valar from himself and they ARE him, in part.. That they are the physical manifestations of parts of his psyche. And, (now begins the analogous bit), the Valar made Oerth from themselves.. (and Sauron made the ring from himself). Therefore when Eru told Melkor that his discord was part merely a part of Eru's original plan, he meant not, "I knew you would do that.", he meant, "You ARE me. I am doing that." This has naught to do with orc redemption, I mentioned it because I believe it wholeheartedly, and notice within this explanation that it may have been overlooked

[@bobabernathy6108]

Melko is no doubt the name of a future pet . Good essay 🤙🏼🖖🏼🙏🏼🖖🏼

[@WardenCommander.]

Wow! What an extensive analysis! Very well done!

[@Lauren.E.O]

I like to think an orc could be, perhaps not a paragon of shining goodness and mercy, but at least comfortably neutral if given a chance. One raised away from their corrupted people may very well be good, provided elves/men/etc allow them a fair shot at living a good life.

[@jarrodcarver9001]

Yay! Excited for this one. 🙌

[@kobold7466]

if an angel can fall surely a demon can rise.

[@jameskent5347]

I just found your channel and it’s fantastic. You got yourself a new sub.

[@justinah7400]

Im sure once an orc dies and its spirit goes to the halls of Mandos Eru has a way for them to get a chance at redemption

[@gnome_friend5281]

Whatever the case, orcs being "evil by default" definitely makes it easier to justify war on the scales depicted in LotR. There's a lot of interesting plot and character development among the free peoples, but armies of orcs exist (for story purposes) only to be feared and killed. The Haradrim are much more interesting to me as they are placed in an actual internal conflict between choosing to do good or evil or merely following tyranny's will.

[@GirlNextGondor]

I would *love* more info on the Haradrim!

[@istari0]

I think there is another big question to consider. Do orcs even have souls? Would Eru Ilúvatar create souls for creatures who almost certainly going to do evil in their lives unless they die before they get old enough? I think I remember reading somewhere that Tolkien had concerns around this. A scenario where a humanoid animal with higher than average intelligence (ex: chimpanzees) are bred through dark magics from Morgoth and Sauron using Men and or Elves to make them suitable warriors, might make a suitable explanation although I don't ever recall reading that Tolkien considered anything like this. If we add in the possibility of some orcs actually being Maiar who ended up permanently in the form of orcs then we have a potential explanation of how 3rd Age orcs recognized Orcrist and Glamdring.

[@matthiuskoenig3378]

Tolkien did infact propose the idea that orcs were corrupted animals in an essay that can be found in myths transformed (part 5 of morgoth's ring)

[@istari0]

@@matthiuskoenig3378 Thanks! I know I looked around in there but must have missed it.

[@Lostinsilenthill]

I like the idea that all things in the end can be saved

[@freddaniel5099]

The orcs of the white hand seem just as evil as those directly serving a "dark lord". Did not Saruman himself "breed" orcs thereby creating a subset of the creatures and do they not prove to be as vile as their brethren surving Sauron?

[@specialnewb9821]

Baby Orc could gain admission to Valinor. No Morgoth ring there and I imagine even of he would burn out fast it would still be considered a mercy.

[@johnwilbur3050]

I've always had this idea for a fan fiction where I'd write the war if the ring from an orcs perspective.

[@GirlNextGondor]

I love the snippets of conversation between orcs that characters overhear in LotR - it's clear that the Orcs have a very different perspective on the goals of their "bosses" - both what they've been told officially and what they privately suspect - than our heroes do. Definitely an interesting topic to explore!

[@naturalmystic5098]

The Orcs have been forsaken by the Valor. Or we can say the Orcs have been forsaken by Eru. Forsaken because they are of Eru's creation that's been captured and altered.

[@darkstarmike85]

Wonderful video! I'd be interested in a follow up comparison of orcs in popular media with Tolkien's original creation. There's a good conversation that could be had about how and why they've been effectively redeemed by the public. In nearly every work that uses them they seem to be presented as warlike but not necessarily evil. Also my head canon for Tolkien's trolls is that they were made in mockery of the ents, by breeding them from enslaved dwarves; like the orcs.

[@donaldscholand4617]

Terry Pratchett introduced an orc character in his Discworld novel, "Unseen Academicals". Pratchett gives the character his usual twist as his heritage and upbringing are revealed. It's a good story.

[@blakewinter1657]

Wait, are we sure that canonically, the Uruk-Hai are not really under Saruman's control? I didn't get the impression they were actually controlled by Sauron. Actually it seemed to me that the orcs often act independently, even though they are ultimately on the side of evil. The big issue that Tolkien didn't like about orcs being elves or men, I think, was that he didn't like the idea of them having fëar if they were born irredeemable (for what we could call theological reasons). The mention of how necromancy works in Tolkien's world might offer an explanation. Perhaps the reason Sauron is called the Necromancer, etc., and why there are independent orcs, is because Morgoth and then Sauron use corrupted elfish fëar (and maybe mannish fëar too) to inhabit the orc bodies, or at least some of them. (And even though men can't resist the call of Mandos, perhaps they can if 'aided' by Morgoth or Sauron). Such fëar would be already corrupted beyond the possibility of redemption, at least until they submitted to the call of Mandos, and would also explain why the creation of the orcs was such a vile act, worse than almost any other. The same might apply to trolls, etc. Thus, perhaps not all orcs were more than animals. Maybe only some of them had fëar, and these came from the abused and twisted elves and men whom Morgoth and Sauron had pulled into evil so far that they would refuse Mandos' call. Orcs without these would be, essentially, no better than twisted animals, or no different from twisted animals. They might not remember their 'past lives' if they got reincarnated as other orcs, too. Olorin could not remember most of his life as Olorin while he was incarnated as Gandalf. Also, we shouldn't forget the metaphysical problem posed by Huan and the 'thinking fox.' These might be related to the problem of orcs. I think Tolkien said that Huan did not have a fë, despite his ability to speak.

[@NobleWolf]

I'm guessing with time and much patience a Orc or some Orcs could slowly grow back to what they once were but it would take guidance, and many generations to do so. However not all dogs can go back to a wolf so easily, it takes a long time and alot of hard morale choices to make along the way. It could be done with no dark powers nearby

[@koalasciences4319]

Very interesting video. Thanks for the analysis!

[@scottjackson1420]

Assuming that orcs come into this world in a way similar to how all babies arrive, it would be interesting to learn what would happen if an orc newborn was raised in Rivendell and raised as they would have, say, raised Aragorn. Environment vs genetics. Just like "Trading Places!" And then, we reach around the 25 minute mark, and you discuss the same issue!

[@thomasp12384]

Woow! I am really impressed by the indepth analysis of your video! I loved it🎉 I do so love discussion regarding orc nature, mostly being on the side of orcs being created out of men (it does fix the issue what happens when orcs die, I can not really imagine an orc going to Mandos halls lol)

[@TheMarcHicks]

I have a couple of pet theories about Orcs being "corrupted elves", a la The Silmarillion. The first is that, though later elves might be described as "ethereal", this seems to be more a factor of time and/or time spent in the Undying Lands. At their awakening, it would seem that elves were-in body at least-much more alike to men than in later Ages. The upshot being that early elves might have been much more corruptible into orcs-spiritually and physically-than before they met the Valar for the first time.....but maybe could not be corrupted to that extent later on. A second pet theory is that the corruption of the Elf is at the hroa level only, that forces the Fea to abandon it, thus leaving the hroa as an empty shell ready to be occupied by one of the many "sub-Ainur" level spirits corrupted by Morgoth (i.e. like Vampires & Werewolves), thus creating Orcs.

[@iamsemjaza]

You might want to look into "Rev Bem" from the Andromeda tv series. The Magog are basically space-orcs (complete with a dark lord). His arc might give you some ideas for considering a "redeemable orc"

[@michaelhart7569]

In TLoTR we learn that there are many different types of orcs, now including the Uruk Hai. It seems likely that they also have many different behaviour patterns. The orcs (goblins) we first meet in The Hobbit seem to have a stable society and that they can be negotiated with, until Glamdring and Orchrist are revealed.

[@thomassmith6232]

I wish that Tolkien had given some more thought as to what Orcish society was like. That there are cities suggest a division of labor, commerce of some sort, and all of the other things needed to run a city, regardless of inhabitants or period.

[@GirlNextGondor]

Agreed! - There's some hint at this, IIRC, with the term 'snaga,' which Tolkien (somewhere) said was less a proper name and more a signifier of class/role. Certainly the idea of a rigid hierarchy based solely on utility is in alignment with the general Orkish ethos....

[@TerryDowne]

This is a fine presentation. I think that Orcs make most sense as a specialized or conditioned race of corrupted Elves, but you lay out the problems and choices very well.

[@josephwarra5043]

Imagine how different LOTR would have been if Gondor had tactical nukes and Patriot Missiles or the Dwarfs had Abrams tanks and F-16 fighters.

[@Ranecroft]

Excellent points. I hope they explore this in the rings of power series.

[@jpbjoel]

Gollum spies out orcs sitting on shoreline wading birds…. He shouts in anguish “Orcs on storks!” (Sorry! Couldn't resist!) Edited to add: Now having seen the video with my wife, I am once again appreciative of GNG's deft handling of a complex topic. She could be renamed Alexandra for her ability to cut through complex problems.

[@GirlNextGondor]

You've heard of elf on a shelf. Now get ready for...

[@istari0]

@@GirlNextGondor Wizards on lizards?!

[@jpbjoel]

@@istari0 Tolkien should have let Saruman have a small dragon just so this phrase could be used.

[@DavidRoberts]

That last sentence is pure gold, thank you!

[@oudviola]

Trolls in Rolls (Royce)

[@jonathanprisbrey9473]

I thought a good way to explain their more human traits was that there existence was that since they were created to mock, everything that they did was to mock existence. If they expressed empathy it was to be a mockery of empathy. I also wasn't bothered by the contradiction with the theme of evil can't create or destroy, yet Morgoth made 'Made' the orcs to mock, Since he it to mock existence. If all the others disappeared morgoth would be left without a purpose, as in not inability to fulfill a divine duty, but a personal motivation. He did all this to mock existence but now he has nothing left to mock. He would probably disappear since he wanted to destroy the world now he is the only remaining piece of it.

[@TerezatheTeacher]

I dabble as a KZbinr, I already AM a puppet of the evil algorithm.

[@Geckoboy1.0]

Great video. The History Of Middle Earth, 5000 odd page, 3 Volume Book set is very worth adding to ones collection for the Tolkiens evolution.

[@athenovae]

The channel name 😭👌🏼

[@tomrowlette9573]

There was a quote in a Tolkien book somewhere (not a great help, I know) that every race participated in the battle between Sauron and Isildur. Every race includes orcs, and although maybe Tolkien didn't intend for orcs to be included there, I like to think there were some redeemed orcs at that battle.

[@thenorthkoreanwifier2075]

Here's a unique question/hot take: What if orcs are a part of the children of Eru? Not in that they're descendents of elves or men, but are given life in a similar way the Dwarves or created or allowed to be created by Eru like the Nameless Things or Ungoliant (maybe) were from Melkor's part in Ainulindale much like Men and Elves were. I don't necessarily think this is the case (and personally moreso believe that orcs are more literally twisted men and elves) but it is an interesting thing to think on.

[@GirlNextGondor]

I don't know that Tolkien could have endorsed this theory directly, but I also think it's unnervingly *compatible* with some of his comments (in the context of, eg, Mannish mortality) about not making hasty claims about what Eru might permit, or even endorse. Aule wanted his creatures to have independent minds/souls and was delighted when Eru gave it to them; Morgoth wanted the *power* to give the spark of life to his creatures, but as for the creatures themselves, I think he would generally have preferred puppets that were wholly dominated by him. So what could be more satisfying for Eru than granting initially-robotic Orcs the awareness and self-interest characteristic of the Eruhini, which would cause Morgoth and Sauron no end of inconvenience and frustration? Like you said, it's unlikely but interesting to think about!

[@thenorthkoreanwifier2075]

@@GirlNextGondor yes, this is a far better way of explaining my question. And I do agree, I don't think Tolkien would endorse this theory either, though it would be ironic if Eru gave the orcs a sort of life to them as means to frustrate Morgoth and Sauron. Edit: I wonder if perhaps if orcs were redeemable either in this thought experiment of mine or in some other way, given how much Morgoth and those perverted by him, would one of the ways to redeem them be only through Eru? Either being given life again as among men or (perhaps less likely) elves or some other not known way through death if they didn't chose to join Morgoth behind the Wall of Night?

[@rushnafwadud]

Standing ovation.

[@ryankwon8785]

I think there are some "good" orcs and it is possible they could have supported rebellions against Sauron in Rhun. However, it depends on the environment they are raised in. If a baby orc was kindly raised by good humans in Rhun, then it is possible that orc would be raised to be a good person. The non-canon Shadow of War game successfully showed how complex the orcs are: Some are friends like Ranger & Ratbag, some are loving brothers like Flint & Tinder, and some have a conscience like Olog when it comes to war. 1. Ratbag & Ranger's Friendship: kzbin.info/www/bejne/rGO7pWp7m7uVhrs 2. Flint's death to Tinder's sadness: kzbin.info/www/bejne/gZjOaISBhqd9btE&ab_channel=BryanMatthews 3. Olog's Conscience: kzbin.info/www/bejne/a5S7YZyhgNuUh9U&ab_channel=DeCrazyGaming