Are Spadroons the Sidesword of the 18th Century?

[@hector_2999]

Funny how they are so similar yet so aesthetically different.

[@ktoth29]

Sidesword = Short Rapier , Smallsword = Tiny Rapier, Spadroon = Big Smallsword.

[@chasingthetrail9375]

I’ve also found spadroons and messers to be the most interesting, as well as things like pioneer swords or the French cabbage chopper.

[@ivanharlokin]

Very interesting video, thanks. Fingering the ricasso also brings the tip more in line with the arm, which assists thrusting. It may be just me, I also find that it gives false edge cuts more 'snap'.

[@jiaweizhang4166]

I think rings/crossbars could be more useful in thrusting centric swords regardless of size. For instance an Italian foil is easier to manoeuvre and stronger in binding compared to its French counterpart. Although I would say Italian foils tend to be a bit on the longer/heavier side.

[@derekwhitman1421]

Great video! You answered some questions I had about the spadroon. Thank you!

[@zerozerosud]

Wow, I didn't expect it to be a common question ^^ Thanks for the video!

[@emarsk77]

The more I look at spadroons, the more I like them.

[@ThornForTheWynn]

I know I'm late, but putting the finger into the ring on a smallsword was sometimes done, at least into the 1710s. Alexander Doyle's 1715 treatise, which is the oldest German smallsword manual we have, does instruct it.

[@lowlandnobleman6746]

I’d say they are, in a way. Now this makes me ponder a similar question in the other direction, were the longer bladed la Tène Celtic swords the arming swords of the Iron Age?

[@339Jackscarify]

Sword is Sword. Jokes asides... kinda? I mean, maybe lenghtwise but didn't have the same use, at least the later models, since those were more cavalry oriented swords

[@lowlandnobleman6746]

Celts used those longer blades both on horseback and on foot with oval shields. Granted, bucklers and heater shields aren’t oval shields, but the idea is vaguely similar.

[@339Jackscarify]

@@lowlandnobleman6746 well, yes, but the later la tene blades developped around a cut-centric use, as you can see with many finds seen reaching also Germania and Britannia, with having almost no point or having a flat top point

[@stuffguru]

They Venn diagram very well.

[@BS-bd5uq]

They may serve similar functions in design, but I would say 750+ grams and 1000-1200 grams feel completely different in hand, even with similar blade authorities

[@AcademyofHistoricalFencing]

If two swords have a similar mass distribution with those weights they can actually feel very close to one another. The two swords in the video are a really good example of that and are the reason I chose them. It is the change in mass distribution which immediately makes a sword feel so very different.

[@BS-bd5uq]

@@AcademyofHistoricalFencing It's really interesting to see this conclusion because my two practice sabres, with only 130g of difference and similar POB, feels quite different to my hand. I feel like with the heavier one it's considerably harder to do feints thus I think it weight itself might bring enough difference to the handling equation. But it might just be my wrist/arm being not strong enough or I'm not doing the feints in the most efficient way. I'm hoping to get a heavier sidesword one day and see how it handles.

[@emarsk77]

Just a side note: with a sidesword, if the quillons aren't overbuilt you can actually put the thumb on the false edge side of the ricasso (in the "other" ring) quite comfortably. The grip is not exactly the same as with a sabre (or a spadroon I suppose), but it's remarkably similar.

[@johnhanley9946]

Good video, I would have guessed that the rings on the sidesword made more of a difference in the way it functions.

[@Ratigun]

I had a very similar question, you madman.

[@wildrangeringreen]

You start seeing a fair number swords with finger rings and a connecting ring early on in the 1400's on what would have otherwise been "arming sword" blades (in artwork and surviving examples). Finger rings appear in artwork in the 1390's, so it's quite possible they were beginning to show up in the 1370's already. Even with gauntlets, the larger finger rings and connecting rings you see in the 1430's are advantageous to have, as it lessens the impact on you hands from heavier things like polearms (often, earlier ones were quite small and not meant for gauntlets). "side swords" have blades ranging anywhere from 27" to 36" lengths on average, depending on exactly when and where and who made it or it was made for. Technically, a Spanish Bilbo is realistically a type of "side sword" (and are, with rare exception, absolutely not "rapiers" when you actually handle one). In the end it's a balanced use (as opposed to narrower, typically longer, more thrust centric rapier) , cut-thrust sword with a somewhat complex hilt (not a full basket) from the 1400's through to the mid-late 1600's (250 years is a fair chunk of time and trend development). Early rapiers (like the style Thibault advocates for) often have rather minimalistic guards, often only a cross, finger rings, and a connecting ring; and occasionally with a shell or cup over the rings. You also see those depicted in most of the earlier "rapier" manuals, like Camillo Agrippa's, however, by around a decade later, you see sweeping bars being depicted on "rapiers" in Italy, meaning that most likely, there was a range of complex hilts on swords at that time (to say nothing of the Germanic region), and whether it was a "rapier" or not was largely determined by the blade geometry (and that determines how it was intended to be used). "Side swords" are not "early rapiers", they're just swords. Straight, double edged (and sometimes backswords) swords of 1400-1650's tended to run towards three different camps: Basket hilts, arming swords (and falchions) with some extra stuff on them, and early to late rapiers (thrust focused, cut-thrust swords). They all existed at the same time. Some spadroon-like swords have functional finger or thumb rings, but they're generally not from Britain and France (some of these have shell guards with traditional quillons). Leather and metal loops for the finger or thumb were also in use on sabers for a similar purpose.

[@pictish02]

Similar but different , long sharp and pointy .

[@kempo79]

How would you call military blades worn by infantry in first half of XVII century tho'?

[@emarsk77]

Are there any good steel spadroon simulators for sparring you guys recommend? I've seen a review of Kraken which look good and not very expensive, but I wouldn't mind to find something from Europe (just to save on shipping costs, nothing against American smiths).

[@AcademyofHistoricalFencing]

Kraken is the only good maker of steel spadroons right now. Black Fencer make synths and will hopefully do steel soon.

[@emarsk77]

@@AcademyofHistoricalFencing Thanks. Merry Christmas, btw.

[@klyanadkmorr]

Stick Em with the POINTY END ☺♥

[@hermespino9985]

While side-sword is a modern term in english, it's not in Italian. Spada da Lato literally translates as side sword.

[@simonfraser3332]

can i join the fb group?

[@AcademyofHistoricalFencing]

facebook.com/groups/273431699946620

[@simonfraser3332]

@@AcademyofHistoricalFencing thank you!!

[@raphlvlogs271]

sideswords are functionally more similar to British backswords and broadswords than rapiers.

[@AcademyofHistoricalFencing]

And most spadroons are most similar to backswords, or actually are backswords, but the term had been replaced. And ultimately there is such a wide variety of sideswords they can compare well to backswords, broadswords and also longer rapiers depending on their specs.

[@raphlvlogs271]

were side swords ever converted from medieval longswords?

[@AcademyofHistoricalFencing]

I've seen no evidence, but many blades were cut down to fit a new hilt, so it could well have happened.

[@oolooo]

We should be frank , due to it being Single Edged and Straight , the Spadroon is basically a dueling Machete .

[@AcademyofHistoricalFencing]

They aren't limited to single edge, they can be single or double,. or single with a shorter sharpened back edge, and they aren't a duelling sword :)

[@raphlvlogs271]

the sidesword is basically a post-medieval arming sword.

[@AcademyofHistoricalFencing]

I discuss this in the video, and yet their specs and training methods strive towards the rapier and so they are very much the inbetween

[@Riceball01]

@@AcademyofHistoricalFencing So, sort of a proto-rapier then?

[@TS-xt8jk]

LOL at the T shirt and trying to make spadroons cool again. 5/5

[@CDKohmy]

I hate the term sidesword, I just use short rapier or cutting rapier depending on blade width.

[@AcademyofHistoricalFencing]

I'm fine with it. Once a term is widely used enough it becomes the norm, that is the way of language change.

[@ktoth29]

I hate the term rapier because it implies a musketeer sword.

[@bobrobinson1576]

I dislike the term side sword. As far as I know only the Germans had a specific name for them - Reitschwert meaning riding sword or perhaps cavalry sword.

[@AcademyofHistoricalFencing]

There is spada da lato, which is where sidesword derives. It isn't a historical term, but it is exceedingly useful when today we look back upon hundreds of years of swords and swordmanship from many different cultures all at once. Sidesword works because anyone in the HEMA community immediately knows what it means, which cannot be said for any other term you might use for them.