Are Tabs killing your music? Things I wish I learned earlier - Ep#1

[@myfavoritesith]

Rodney is 100% Correct. in my day I had to keep rewinding the cassette tape and listen over and over to learn the part. Did I ruin my cassette? Yes. Did I learn how to play YYZ? Yes. But I learned.

[@MichaelPugh-zx8ko]

I feel like tabs are a decent starting point but in the end you should only use it as a tool while developing your tonal recognition as well as becoming more familiar with your instrument.

[@GillRigged]

This is literally the problem with today's metal, IMO. I was just talking with my uncle about this yesterday. Damn I love this channel.

[@rockxx1974]

Amen, Rodney! Totally agree! Rock On!

[@RodneyMcG]

Thanks, Jens!

[@jrosner6123]

Sooo spot on, Rodney! Shit, tabs take too long, and tell you WHERE to put your fingers, and fail to dispense a single crumb of musical goodness. I never got the tabs thing.

[@RodneyMcG]

Truth!

[@jrosner6123]

@@RodneyMcG keep preaching it!

[@karenpatton434]

Fascinating!

[@prabashgranger6621]

So true and motivating

[@t.j.meechan682]

I completely agree with you on this point. Im glad you are making this series! Already looking forward to the next video. I know we are going to get a ton of great information and advice. Much obliged sir!

[@RodneyMcG]

Glad to do it, TJ! I definitely think there's some approaches and info that will be new terrain for a lot of players. I hope it inspires!

[@stevejay5503]

Great segment. My favorite music notation reference is Standing In The Shadow Of Motown..the James Jamerson book. No tabs whatsoever. It makes you a better reader without the tabs as a crutch. Every once in awhile I'll peek at a tab or video if I'm stuck on a part..but I try to get it all by ear first or reading notation.

[@noone-fj9sn]

Great video. Bit of an eye opener this

[@RodneyMcG]

Thanks for watching! I'm glad you got something out of it.

[@EricNeuls]

Very interesting, I am guilty of using TABs to get by on stuff, mostly because i joined a band and they needed me to learn like 50 songs very quickly. Of course over time and hours and hours of practicing after I learned them i went a sort of relearned them, basically just needed the bones of the song then i was able to build upon it and make it my own. Do i play every song perfectly like the album? No way, but i do make it my own, and I thank TABs for being able to get me a lot of info quickly. I think relying solely on them is a bad thing but they are definitely good for what they are.

[@RodneyMcG]

Used once in a while is fine. Most people use it as their sole way of learning these days though, and it's really not helping them.

[@StephenBecker]

Just ran across your channel and already I love your stuff. I'll disagree with this tab rant though. I only picked up bass less than two years ago (although in my increasingly distant past I played wind instruments and already understood how to play music), and tabs have allowed me to progress very rapidly. I've been listening to bass parts in songs for years and never fathomed I'd be able to play some of them, but here I am. The subtlety that I think your argument misses is that just knowing where to put your fingers doesn't mean you use your fingers in the way that get the right tone, feel, and groove for a song. If I'm spending hours or days just trying to pull out all the bass parts hidden behind a wall of distorted guitars in a song I like, that's just frustrating and doesn't allow me to work on finger technique that makes the song sound correct! Further, and this is really specific to my situation, when I was a kid I severely broke my left forearm in a way that I've lost quite a lot of range of motion (although playing bass seems to have improved that somewhat). This means that sometimes the "correct" way to play a song sometimes doesn't work very well for me and results in arm fatigue very quickly. Therefore one of my favorite things to do is look at a tab and figure out more clever ways to play the part that works better for me. Sometimes I'll figure out two or three different ways and jump back and forth. Another thing I'll do is tune my bass down to D standard, and then practice transposing tabs written for E standard on the fly, including figuring out how best to accommodate notes that were supposed to be open strings in E. This allows me to play a wider range of songs without constantly changing the setup of my bass. To your point about affecting your song writing, that's not something that interests me very much. I'm not in a band at this point, and probably never will be. I'm very happy just being able to play along with all the music that I've enjoyed for many years at this point in the bit of spare time I have.

[@RodneyMcG]

Hey Stephen, Thanks for the kind words and checking out the channel. I'll have to (respectfully) continue to disagree with you on the Tab thing. I think you actually make my argument on a few points. I would argue that you have "rapidly progressed" in one way, at the cost of several others. I didn't miss the subtlety you mentioned either, it's actually part of my criticism of tabs. They are missing a ton of vital information. You also mentioned struggling for days to figure out a part that tab supposedly made easier for you.This is the perfect place for me to emphasize my point. You can't hear the notes because you haven't developed your ear. The same is true in your statement "I've been listening to bass parts in songs for years and never fathomed I'd be able to play some of them". You also mention frustration and a disdain for spending the time to figure the part out. It's giving in to the immediate pleasure instead of putting in time and work that will not only reap immensely more benefit in the end, but also a much greater sense of accomplishment. Putting in that frustrating time is the time you are developing. There is no shortcut. Tabs pretend to be that, but they aren't. It takes patience, but the lesson from all of history is, great things only come from putting in the work. Working with tabs, you will be no better at learning on your 1000th song than you were on your 1st. I've spent years, and continue to, listening to songs to figure them out. My experience of them is deeper than most people and I often note a deeper appreciation of them. The other and more immediate bonus is that I don't have to do much of the work you talk about. I can listen to a song and know 70 percent of it before I pick up my instrument. I don't have to start with a fingering and then figure out my own, it's mine from the start. I can learn songs faster than yourself with a tab, as while I'm listening, I'm getting the overwhelming majority of information I need. Plus, I am learning by listening, not looking! It's an audio art form! The immediate gratification is a hard thing to resist these days, but if you really want to learn the songs faster, more accurately, and actually develop as a musician, there is one path, and it takes time. You need to understand what you're working towards, and enjoy each session as one more brick removed from the wall obscuring your knowledge and skill. My final point is - how do you know the tabs are right? If you can't figure it out, why do you think some random person on the internet with likely no more skill than yourself nailed it? If you haven't developed your ear, how would you know if it's wrong? I've seen hundreds of tabs and I honestly can't remember the last one I saw that was correct. Not only are you likely not learning things accurately, but you are making it worse for yourself by playing incorrect parts and confusing your ear. I've dealt with students for many years running and it's a continual problem. They wind up coming to me and having me correct songs they "learned" from shitty tabs, and then want to know why they still can't figure out songs, or can't jam with other musicians due to the fact that they can't listen and play along. To wrap this up, I am really glad to hear that after your unfortunate injury, you've found a way to still enjoy playing. That's awesome. If you are happy with what you do, by all means keep at it. My points are still accurate, but if you are happy with what you get from your playing then that's what matters. I do appreciate the well written and thought provoking post. I love a challenge and a back and forth. No ideas are good if they aren't tested! Thanks again, and I hope to see more posts from you on future videos. Be well.

[@StephenBecker]

@@RodneyMcG thanks for the reply! A few points here. First, I know the tabs are usually wrong. I figure that out all the time. It's not difficult to fix things on the fly once I have the general gist of the song from the tab. And further, most of the songs I'm learning, I've been listening to for years, and so I do have a tendency to to have a pretty good idea of where the bass part is going once I see even a little bit of the tab. Second, I originally learned music playing sheet music in a concert band, and played like that for almost 15 years. That's not the same as tabs of course, but for the instruments I played there was typically only one fingering that worked.. In hindsight, I always treated learning new songs exactly the same...where do I put my fingers? In that sense, it was very tab-like. Either way, if we were given a recording and told to learn the part tonight by listening to it, that wouldn't have worked very well (admittedly, a full concert band is a different beast). If I could find sheet music for all the metal I listen to, I perhaps would use that rather than tabs, but given that's where my headspace is, tabs are as close as I can get. Third, I think your points are specifically written with a view towards people creating new music being adversely influenced by the tabs they just learned. That may very well be true, but that's not what everyone are doing. I, for example, am just a guy sitting in a room at home wanting to play along with songs I like when I get home from work. Tabs allow me to do that. Once I learn the song, I record myself playing it without the tab and go back and work on parts that are wrong. I will admit that I've had similar thoughts to your points (especially when learning really easy songs), but unless something changes and I start playing with other people, I just don't think it's particularly relevant for me.

[@RodneyMcG]

I think you wrapped things up nicely with your last paragraph. And in all fairness, It is titled "killing your music" You clearly don't have interest in doing your own music, so it's not really in your wheelhouse! Thanks for the thoughts and conversation!

[@StephenBecker]

@@RodneyMcG Fair enough! I do see your point, and am absolutely not opposed to learning things by ear.

[@Jagdpz5]

What about tabing your own stuff in Guitar Pro? For me it's helps with composing and relearning my own stuff.

[@RodneyMcG]

There's exceptions to all rules, and I can see how it might be a quick note pad for you. I would still write it out. My next video will cover why and give a ton of benefits to avoiding tab that should inspire you a bit. Thanks for the thoughtful question.

[@Jagdpz5]

@@RodneyMcG Well the thing is I write tracks for all of the instruments. Recording them would be impractical because I don't know how to play drums and I'm really crap at playing guitar. Also I'm very often on delegations where bringing my bass with me is not an option...

[@RodneyMcG]

@@Jagdpz5 I totally understand. You will get a LOT out of the next 2 videos (I hope!)

[@woofystevenson2943]

You know that's a really interesting thought process, I was a classically trained euphonium player for a long time before I became a bass player and there were a handful of focus points, there was first understanding time, then reading music off the page then intonation and dynamics in that order but at the same time ear training for intervals was a huge part because intonation is dramaticised by drone intervals and that lead to the use of audiation which lead to really being able to hear something and just play it and write it down however with reading it would always be something I never heard before , never would read something that I heard before because I could hear the rhythm and figure out the notes thanks to hearing a perfect fifth drone every day for years before I even sat down to take it out of the case

[@RodneyMcG]

That's really interesting. I think you'll find the next video of interest given your background. Thanks for adding your experience to the discussion.

[@woofystevenson2943]

Rodney McG I think one benefit I picked up from using sheet music to learn songs is you can see the notes go up and down and that builds coordination for intervals through seeing distance between pictures on a page and interpreting how much to move the note up or down which leads to when you try to process an idea You can think about what the note sounds like if it's higher or lower, how far apart an interval is that sort of thing by coordinating your eyes to your ears and thinking about how what you're looking at actually would sound or vice versa to make sure it makes sense instead of mindlessly copying notes in rhythm off a page and not thinking about how it sounds, I think it was useful transcription training

[@RodneyMcG]

All great insights, thanks for contributing those!

[@epicortez666]

I really appreciate this videos I know I should stop using tabs this early in my bass playing. Any good songs to learn by ear?? Something to get me in the right path?

[@RodneyMcG]

Most importantly, just pick something you love. You'll be motivated to stick with it, and that's what will bring you success. Good luck!

[@MzuMzu-nx1em]

This remeber when I learned to play bass with a book and a metronome, playing by ear other songs . I Never used tab beacuse wasn't able to find

[@RodneyMcG]

And you are much better off for it. I'm sure you're far more developed than you would have been. The next videos in the series are going to give alternatives that will do a lot more for your playing and musicianship than tabs ever could! Thanks so much for checking out the video and sharing your thoughts.

[@MzuMzu-nx1em]

@@RodneyMcG a lot of tabs are wrong in a weird way , like a jocke of some sort . As bass player the metronome is my trusted friend when cames to play others songs without tab or similar with ghost notes and a perfect ritmic goes everytime right. The 90' seems so faraway . You forgot to mention that the music 's learning curve is endless.

[@RodneyMcG]

@@MzuMzu-nx1em true on all points

[@MzuMzu-nx1em]

@@RodneyMcG my weak point is that I m An autodidat , allergic to theory, I want to learn how to read and write but a side of me sees that as the end of the fun

[@RodneyMcG]

Thinking it will hurt you is another myth i'm going to cover. The next video is about hidden benefits of sight reading that should inspire you. The video after that will be about how there's no such thing as being self taught that will probably give you another perspective as well.

[@jordanstorm7684]

I have only been playing for a year 1/2 now so I'll have a lot of room to grow, glad I found your channel. How do I go about learning songs by ear? Listening to a song and finding the "correct" notes in my bass? Will this naturally translate to accurately hearing what the guitar player is doing when I'm in a band?

[@RodneyMcG]

Hey Jordan, thanks for checking out the channel. There are 2 things that will help you out. 1- Take the song in small chunks. Listen to the part and sing it. Then match your voice to the notes on the bass. This will let you slow things down and also do one note at a time. You'll get used to hearing and matching sounds. 2 - There are a number of ear training methods on youtube. Start one. Try a few and see what works for you. I tend towards ones that teach you one interval at a time. That will be plenty to work with and will definitely help you. It takes time, don't get frustrated, and just put in consistent time. Every day if possible. Consistency is the key. Good luck!

[@jrosner6123]

Excuse the dip, but if you learn tunes on another instrument your brain starts making the connection eventually and your ears grow. Rodney is on point here.

[@CorvetteCoonass]

Tabs aren't bad per say. In fact, they predate classical notation and were used for Lutes way back when. Tabs are useful for understanding a specific performer's interpretation of a piece of music. One might play it one way but another might play it this way. When I teach bass, I always include staff and tab notation so that my student can learn how to play it his/her own way (staff notation) while still providing my own way (tabs) of performing as a reference point. P.S.: Most online tabs are terrible.

[@SanitysVoid]

The best system is Songster if only they did their tabs accurately. I really like how the song plays along with the tabs with a green marker. If someone could make a more accurate site doing the same it would be great.

[@crusherolies8195]

even official tabs are often totally wrong. watched a how to play Battery by tallica vid and they played the isolated bass track from the master tapes and i was like WTF this aint the same as the tab, pulled out my puppets bass tab book by cherry lane and compared and there was so much tab added that isnt even on the original track. so the tab book gives the impression that burton played all this insane stuff triplets and octave accents etc but the actual track shows a much much simpler version than the tab. the worst part is the copyrights for the tab are from creeping death music, so the official metallica version of their music isnt what they recorded. if you cant play by ear or suss out some stuff on your own the tab books can lead you in the very wrong direction playing much more difficult runs than were recorded.

[@RodneyMcG]

100% truth! Half the time these transcriptions are done by people that don't even play the instrument that they are transcribing. They really just aren't a trustworthy Source. Glad you caught on to it.

[@adamrushka8096]

My ear was much better before I discovered tabs lol

[@RodneyMcG]

The good news is you can always get it back!

[@Venomboy666]

I like using tabs as a starting point if my ear isn’t working right that day. There’s so many bad ones even in the official tab books. What a lot of players are also missing is the feel, dynamics, and nuance. I was watching a gear review video by a fairly well known guy who knows his stuff when it comes to gear. Then he started playing Master of Puppets. And it was like he was playing a different song. No accents. No dynamics. Playing is also performing and this guy just missed the boat.

[@RodneyMcG]

Consistent ear training will knock out the weak days. Unfortunately, lame playing is just laziness