Are Tech CEO's Authoritarian Overlords or Just Rich Assholes? With Kara Swisher

Kara Swisher, longtime tech reporter and author of the forthcoming memoir Burn Book, joins Offline to talk about the tech tycoons who think they’re qualified to run our country. She and Jon break down Silicon Valley’s ever growing self importance, whether its leaders are more or less fascist than we think, and how big tech ate the media industry alive. But first! Max and Jon explain why Apple’s Vision Pro headset is the company’s most impressive-and depressing-gadget to date, and how Taylor Swift and Travis Kelce are saving American monoculture.
CHAPTERS
0:00 - Intro
1:48 - Apple Vision Pro
13:38 - Superbowl
20:34 - Ad break
21:55 - Kara Swisher interview
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Crooked believes that we need a better conversation about politics, culture, and the world around us-one that doesn’t just focus on what’s broken, but what we can do to fix it. At a time when it’s increasingly easy to feel cynical or hopeless, former Obama staffers Jon Favreau, Jon Lovett, and Tommy Vietor have created a place where people can have sane conversations that inform, entertain, and inspire action. In 2017 they started Crooked with Pod Save America-a no-bullshit conversation about politics. Since then, we continue to add shows, voices, and opportunities for activism, because it’s up to all of us to do our part to build a better world. That’s it. End of mission.
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#elonmusk #techindustry #republicans

[@shaundalrymple4639]

Thanks for standing up for toddlers. Toddlers, who are sometimes selfish and often don’t know any better, have been unfairly maligned for years to describe the persistently selfish who do know better.

[@duanebidoux6087]

Don't be so hard on toddlers (WHEN they actually are). Toddlers have a very good excuse, namely that they ARE toddlers. Men in their 40s and older have no such excuse.

[@shaundalrymple4639]

Precisely.@@duanebidoux6087

[@geinikan1kan]

@@duanebidoux6087toddlers are open to the world in ways that we adult folks largely dismiss. I’m not worried about the terrible twos just the f*cktup forties.

[@judithlauron2856]

Love POD SAVE AMERICA… never miss a Kara Swisher interview.

[@lethargicwizard]

I saw a video of someone who was severely vision impaired trying on the Vision Pro, and because it essentially takes everything in your field of view and projects it 1 inch from your eyeball, he was actually able to see everything around him in great detail. He even showed off some of the accessibility features built in that also helped smooth out his experience with it. That's a cool use case, as an accessibility or adaptability device. For that purpose, it's relatively cheap; if it was developed specifically as a medical device it would be 10x more expensive. And I sincerely hope this device makes it into more hands that can benefit from the actual utility of it. For everyone else, it's just another expensive VR/AR headset.

[@kaynichelle7982]

Ahh I love Offline and these conversations so much! It's like my weekly validation of not being the only one who sees how insane all this tech has made the world and the gray areas within it. Thank you so much for these thoughtful conversations. They give me hope (and I have very little at this point).

[@grumpyoldman6503]

It's a weird intersection of centrist democrat politics and the dawning understanding of just how fucked we are to have let neoliberal economics take over everything, but always juuust short of what to actually do about it other than keep voting for team D.

[@sarashann]

Love Kara Swisher!!! She's a straight up truth teller. Can't wait to read her book.

[@jennamakesbugs]

I don't recall ever hearing her before. Instant love.

[@andycosta68]

@@jennamakesbugs, she has 2 great podcasts I listen to: "On with Kara Swisher" and "Pivot" which she hosts with Scott Galloway.

[@kimlarson7136]

Kara Swisher!? ❤❤❤❤❤❤

[@purem9150]

She has a great podcast with Scott Galloway called Pivot and is the best Tech journalist in the public square.

[@MostlyMom]

I didn’t know who she was (just started watching offline recently) but I already love her 😂

[@WC-mi1fj]

This lady Kara is very nuanced. It’s a breath of fresh air.

[@cradio52]

I can really see an incredible use case for the Apple Vision Pro for disabled people, or folks who are bed-bound… this device could open up an entirely new world for them, both in utility with helping them accomplish tasks and communicate better with others (via text display, translation tools, home automation, etc.) and entertainment, with being able to “get away” and visit mountains or virtually shop, or connect with others in a virtual world from their bed or wheelchair, etc.

[@missnellie33]

You make a good point. Too bad most people with such disabilities are poor.

[@nonayoung8177]

very interesting and touching comment

[@colleendunseath2596]

​@@missnellie33Yes, another out of touch idea unaware of how badly we treat the disabled.

[@PattisKarriereKarten]

And also think of the possibilities that open up in engineering or medicine!! It’s not all about private use!

[@hdswashere]

I have mixed feelings about Kara Swisher. She was an apologist for Elon Musk for years, going on news networks to explain how he was a misunderstood genius. This went on until she got on his bad side and Musk started criticizing her publicly. It was maddening to listen to her gaslighting people about his behavior. It makes me skeptical of her other insights.

[@Jasper_the_Cat]

Yeah, there's a real problem with any journalist who has close access to tech celebrities not questioning how much they're being played to whitewash their reputations, even if ever so gingerly(e.g. he might be an awful person who's done a lot of harm but he's willing to debate me so...), and the fact that they're being given access for a reason.

[@walle226]

But the billionaire use them when they need them and maybe she got burned and really taught that he was different? Who knows.

[@HonourableHusband]

How the fact that these guys are just plain messed up has escaped the chattering classes is really beyond me. Kara Swisher is stating the very, very obvious.

[@cynthiajohnston9065]

The assumption that what is obvious to you escapes the fact we are in an age of willful ignorance and minimal critical thinking.

[@JoyLearnSallay]

@@cynthiajohnston9065 Repeat...reinforce, that's the M.O. of toxic misinformation. So we have to compete.

[@Eviltwin531]

I feel like, in quite a few ways, it hasn't escaped them. It's just more an example of just not caring, though that's not really the right term. We've tied money into our values system in a lot of ways... it's our reward system (bonuses at work,) it's our punishment system (tickets, fines,) and that has let to it being used as a measure of a person's worth as a human being... if you're poor or have a low-paying job, it's clearly because there's something wrong with you or else you'd have "moved up" to a better or better-paying job by now. Similarly, if you have money, fairly earned or not, you're seen as a good person because why else would you be rewarded with it if you weren't?

[@jonevansauthor]

I love the way she thinks she's super cool, they're all quite nasty, and then says Elon needs therapy because he's got mental illnesses. Errrr... not cool Kara. Are we back to picking on people with mental health issues?

[@joandolliedoyle775]

@@Eviltwin531I agree and if you criticise the likes of Musk, his supporters often say that it must be because you are just jealous of his wealth.

[@user-oi3jz6fv8p]

Really glad that Max is on Offline regularly.

[@ThePequenocristo]

Please have Kara Swisher on as much as possible. 😊

[@kaboom146]

It's "i have so much power i can do anything" and control the world, whether its good for you or not.

[@phriedokra6158]

Helon will be sued by several countries soon for breach of contract with their computer use he promised safety quality assurance and checks on for safety AND HE LAID ALL THOSE FOLKS OFF....so hes IN BREACH....stay tuned...Helena will be wiring his own brain to a monkies on X to raise money to fight those lawsuits...

[@burntorangehorn]

Maybe, but some of it probably has to do with a mismatch between what they thought their achievements would bring them and what they actually have. They probably envisioned receiving broad admiration and even love, instead of the criticism and resentment that come with how much power and means they wield.

[@ryukoli4707]

It's called: Capitalism gone WILDLY out of control. Just because someone has an aptitude for great invention(s), doesn't mean they are experts in ALL THINGS! There are MANY different types of intelligence.

[@EmberAwoken]

I’ve never listened to Kara Swisher before but wow is she impeccably able to just flippantly use her wealth of knowledge to say such hysterical and profound things. Thank you 😊❤

[@user-gv4le7er6b]

Kara's PIVOT podcast is excellent, right on the edge and hilarious to boot ! 1 of a kind !

[@GettingClear]

Thanks for the suggestion!

[@MargaretPinard]

"Grievance-industrial complex? ooh, there's a gem.

[@nreker]

I think you meant Tim Apple. May Steve Apple rest in peace.

[@TheMrCougarful]

How does the iFacephone solve global heating? Other than allowing rich people to overlay the illusion of a better world everywhere they look?

[@jonevansauthor]

Write an app for it that overlays the temperature today, and the temperature you'd have if you weren't driving ICE vehicles. That'd be quite useful for Americans who are the only place that you can get the thing anyway. Seriously though, anyone who is rich enough to afford one and not use it because they're trying to develop an app for it, is rich enough to understand global warming anyway.

[@burntorangehorn]

​@jonevansauthor A program that shows what life would be like after the knock-on effects of global climate change would be incredible. Go to Phoenix, see an urban wasteland that's been abandoned for lack of water. Go to Miami, and a crumbling skyline jutting straight up from the ocean. Go to NYC, and watch tourists going for gondola rides through the East Village.

[@DrRCStone]

Now that we are screen addicted, they can ease us into 24/7 screen life. It’s the fentanyl of tech. Not needed, but infinitely more addictive. And I’m an Apple Stan.

[@jonevansauthor]

Ahh yes, but I think fentanyl would take away your headache, not give you one, right? The headsets are far from useful yet, there's no killer app yet. I think AR glasses like Google Glass will be more useful ultimately, particularly, no pun intended, for the blind or partially sighted.

[@matthewgubanich6395]

The scariest part of those Apple Vision Pros is that, paired with a watch and iPhone or computer, you are giving apple basically all the biometric data they need to get a perfect picture of your emotional state. Pulse, *exactly* what you are looking at, eye dilation, emotions on your face, skin conductivity, everything. Now they can map the inside and outside of your body as you watch content and get advertised to. Incredible power. They will know your preferences better than you do, quite literally.

[@nicsxnin6786]

Yes pay them a fortune for them to get all your data that can be mined for profit, insanity.

[@karakask5488]

I'm trying to get off my phone as much as possible, and here Apple is strapping it to your face. This might be the tipping point of our dystopia. Everytime something like this or the Ray-Bans with the camera in them comes out, I think I'm going to have to make a t-shirt that says "I do not consent to being recorded" because now you can't tell who's taking your image and what they're going to do with it. It makes me feel like there were no women or minorities involved in the creation of them.

[@thewebdiva5903]

I would have preferred they had developed technology that secures our Apple devices from the scams and associated thefts that are escalating exponentially.

[@Solarsystem50]

Kara is the best in the business. I cant get enough of her analysis.

[@ninnoofthelastunicorn2693]

The Elmo checking up on us moment was a great example of a monoculture moment, that was ruined by ads when branda tried to use that great moment to get their brand name involved

[@jeffscott2894]

Brilliance does not equate to morality, which our sociaty unfortunately does not seem to have too much of.

[@Ari-jj9op]

In the Matrix box set there was a disc with philosophers talking about upcoming tech and man did they nail this 'reality'. Anyone who wants a great review, check it out.

[@emilyhartmann1794]

"Yeah, yeah, but your scientists were so preoccupied with whether or not they could that they didn't stop to think if they should."

[@kathleenobrien2846]

When you said you were going to show a video of the vision pro I really thought you would just show a clip of Wall-E

[@starshake8998]

😆

[@monetprotege]

What a great guest and fascinating interview.

[@pauldockree9915]

Three requirements for a good dialogue: intelligence, candor, and good will. - Socrates Ahem four requirements Opportunity.

[@guyrose2847]

28:22 "Contrarian for contrarian's sake" has a name: it's called oppositional defiant disorder, it's a behavior disorder, it's in the books. And all over the Internet.

[@erinmccreery9781]

When I saw the Apple Pro commercial all I can see is scenes in the movie Wall-E. The humans were so distracted by their virtual sceens they didn't see any of the people around them or notice what was happening.

[@profitprophet6418]

50:46 Kara- I was George's assistant for many years and he allowed me to speak truth and it was therapy as you describe. Relationships are critical to humanity

[@bobcatnm]

I want to see a Saturday night live scene, where everyone on the subway is wearing the iPhone goggle thing, while these are stealing everything on their person

[@CRrrr-gq1so]

I’m strongly on the side of just assholes.

[@cynthiajohnston9065]

Isolating from family and other people.

[@gyrene_asea4133]

Thanks. Title of upload was irresistible, but the content of the conversation was stellar. Time well spent listening to sharp folk.

[@andycosta68]

Love me some Kara Swisher. She is amazing.

[@eschwarz1003]

omg I was screaming into the void about this 15 years ago like a crazy person and here we are

[@elizabethconklin9011]

When my son was a baby, we could not get him to crawl. We bought him an activity blanket thinking it would compel him to crawl. He would throw up within minutes of being put on the blanket. It was over stimulation, that is our brain when it is over stimulated.

[@dylantully9325]

I think I had a stress dream last night where I was going to brag about my LSAT score to Lovett at a book signing.

[@phriedokra6158]

We got a kid who broke the record on the highest lsat score at the school I work for....very nice young man...

[@Prohass]

For 3500 you can get 5 actual better quality screens on your workspace, and don’t have a massive thing on your head. The problem with these AR and even VR devices, is people don’t like things wrapped over their face and eyes, it’s uncomfortable!

[@duanebidoux6087]

A perfect description: the "Grievance Industrial Complex." Technology has made it incredibly easy to make money off of people's unhappiness. But, unlike past innovations to make money off of people's unhappiness by fixing it (e.g., psychiatry, or therapy, etc.) we can now make money by stoking and maintaining and accelerating people's unhappiness and grievances. An eternal free market truth: incentivize something and you get more of it. And we do certainly have more of it now.

[@HistoryTeacherSteve]

What's wonderful interview, I had never heard of her before but I'll pre-order the new book!

[@chanteclayton3991]

That was a great interview/conversation! Thank you!!

[@SeanSmith66]

I remember, in regards to VisionPro, when these same things were being said about Bluetooth headsets or ear pieces…

[@Cat-mw2qg]

They were like, what we need are the WALL-E serf/consumption class.

[@godinflt555]

I see this as being spoon-fed content and information. A person receives a bit of this and a bit of that in the time that a person “puts it in your mouth”. In the end, there is no time to enjoy the content; simply eat it and move on. That is not how information should be digested. It “should” be mulled over. It should be thought of and considered. Information and content shouldn’t be like passing by an accident with a glance.

[@emiliog.4432]

My theory is that having a lot of money does something to the human brain. A sense of entitlement and a mistaken belief that they are somehow better than others. Cognitive dissonance on steroids.

[@user-oi3jz6fv8p]

Kara's Eyore stack made me feel much better about my various stacks of books.

[@codyt.346]

10:38 We’ll we still have that now. If you say hello passing someone on the trail chances are they have Bluetooth headphones in and won’t acknowledge you.

[@Eviltwin531]

I feel like the options in that headline aren't mutually exclusive.

[@PoggeB13]

I spent ten hours a day with 25 to 40 children ages five to twelve, for eight summers between 2015 and 2022. Kids, particularly boys, are already suffering from scattered thinking, short attention spans and poor interactions with their fellow humans because it strains their craving for quick gratification. This will destroy them. As a society, we'll let it happen.

[@SB-vt9tz]

True, but extremely sad 😢

[@phriedokra6158]

Learning to delay gratification is a must with EVERY HUMAN on earth.....we are a world of I WANT WHAT I WANT AND I WANT IT NOW.....women pick Mr Right now instead of WAITING FOR MR RIGHT.....zero practice of patience and tolerance....EVEN MICROWAVES are too slow...lol

[@jonevansauthor]

That sounds like school in the 80s to me, but hey ho.

[@Eviltwin531]

I just sort of wonder where the counter-movement is. It seems like any time there's a big trend like this, there's always a backlash and a subsequent anti-movement that comes along as a reaction to it. First example I can think of, I grew up in the TRL era when music was dominated by the bubblegum pop sound of NSYNC-style boy bands and Britney-style pop stars. Eventually the saturation led to frustration against it, and led to a rise of genres that seemed to be considered better and more "authentic" in contrast with the dominant pop of the time-- Limp Bizkit-style new metal, Eminem-style rap, even a lot of folksy singer-songwriters such as Michelle Branch and Vanessa Carlton got branded as the "Anti-Britney" here to save music (We can argue all day about whether or not any of them actually WERE better or more authentic, but that was the thinking at the time.) I remember when Favs interviewed the young lady who founded the Log Off movement, I was kinda surprised to hear her talk about just wanting to REDUCE social media usage... which is perfectly fine, that's her prerogative, but you would just think there would be some kind of organic movement devoted to just dropping it entirely. Especially since kids are smart enough to see the damage its causing to their peers, you would think the fatigue would set in and they'd just check out from it entirely.

[@meb1]

There were other digital music players out there before iPod. Apple did not solve the problem of carrying CDs around. They made the MP3 player better.

[@theotherspain]

The "Grievance Industrial Complex" that is great!

[@codyt.346]

7:00 I listen to 1000 songs at the same time. It’s great

[@millrace32]

'grievance industrial complex' - you might want to settle whether that's the 'gic' or the 'jic', asap. or not

[@hdswashere]

32:53 "I think Sam Altman is very thoughtful." I'm calling it now. She's currying favor with him. They're going to have a falling out eventually when Altman reveals that he's a psycho. She'll defend him in media for a while, and then she'll denounce him.

[@hippodinoreserve6090]

People change. We should always strive to be better people, and learn from our mistakes. And be willing to apologize and admit we were wrong.

[@--Dan-]

The only reason Jon hasn't gone full Apple cult is that he can't get Microsoft Word '98 on a macbook.

[@jonevansauthor]

They're both full Apple cult. They're sitting there without mice, using actual laptops in their own office. Who does that? Get a desktop, even a Mac mini, get a mouse and keyboard, and operate like a grown up human being. It's embarrassing to see these kids talk about tech while clearly knowing nothing about it. Humanities students are such a bunch of Luddites.

[@vickipearson2643]

What a great interview....love Kara!

[@sidweazel2883]

Really interesting chat, nicely done 👍

[@kristinsewell1441]

1000 songs in your pocket v. All your screens strapped to your face. 😂

[@trinaolson7131]

This was so helpful to listen to - thank you!

[@islandman9619]

Fantastic podcast, thanks guys. I'm a software engineer for a US telcom, but I'm going back to nature very soon. It's absolutely clear that what's happened last 15 years has degraded our lives. Glad to hear you guys adding to my own confirmation bias :)

[@TheOldHippiebilly]

Was that ad for the new app a parody or was it for real? If it was a parody, it was f**king hilarious! If it was for real, it was truly horrific.

[@ishakhanijo]

Thanks!

[@jamiroquai888]

Facebook is definitely not news anymore as the news channels I follow all stopped airing the current news, so now the news is the people I follow on KZbin.

[@MrGorgefla]

Thanks for sharing that was what I was thinking from what I am seeing. I am glad you told the story and I will definitely be reading your book we are in a dangerous times.

[@nancybeckett2136]

Great interview

[@PremjitTalwar]

The VisionPro is not just a toy. I bet it will be used for training, both civilian and military, in design, in simulation, in a way a screen cannot do. This is a nascent technology which will evolve to places one can hardly imagine today.

[@BottleConcreteBlond]

I always love hearing Kara Swisher's insights.

[@brentvfreiberger]

Apple vision represents the commercialization of the F35 helmet.

[@TheWipeout32]

"Imagine a world where everyone is wearing one of these..." Ah, yes. The predictive power of Wall-E rings true yet again.

[@almadd536]

I have a low vision eye condition extreme light sensitivity that is not yet responding to treatment, it was sudden onset, and I would very much like to use this, but yeah, that’s a very specific use case because I can’t really read normal screens

[@melsafken764]

Elon is turning into a monster right before our eyes.

[@mina-ala]

Great episode!

[@erinrevey6365]

Excellent Guest Today

[@Jeller0450]

I see Kara Swisher, I click.

[@thaphreak]

To answer the title, Yes they are.

[@guyrose2847]

VERY interesting guest. I think I'm going to get that book!

[@pn2543]

was looking for Kara Swisher on New Yorker radio hour podcast, but this will have to do

[@christopherjohns1566]

That apple device is straight out of Johnny Mnemonic.

[@periyoung487]

I love the new color scheme. Happy '24 Gents.

[@CZPC]

Yes?

[@advocacynaccountablity]

That Apple Vision Pro dopamine stimulator was the most obnoxious and sad thing I've seen in many a moon.

[@lauraw.7008]

17:09 division & fragmentation is the bottom line of major corporations because connection will lead to people recognizing we NEED to connect, and major corporations, big tech are hurting us. Taylor Swift encourages real caring.

[@richardcleveland1763]

I think another example of existing monoculture would be the great Dolly Parton.

[@iheartdiscgolf]

Yeah if you hate Dolly GTFO.

[@SuperPal-tr3go]

Who's Dolly Parton?

[@yowie369]

Kara was a great guest. Cheers

[@ronaldgarrison8478]

~28:00 Read "Cyberselfish," by Paulina Borsook, which came out over 20 years ago. (I think there's a book and an essay.) She pretty well lays it out, and surely it hasn't changed in any fundamental way.

[@abortretryfail9350]

The latest generation, according to their teachers, has 7th graders at a fourth grade level, attention spans of gnats, take their phones away their fingers twitch like they have the phone anyway, the addiction to screens is doing real damage, turning kids' minds to oatmeal. I'm sorry, this generation born with a cell phone in their hands doesn't have a prayer. There's a show on, Prime I think? Maybe Netflix, where they have it implanted in their heads, and the result is kinda what you'd imagine. Don't get me wrong, I'd probably be first in line, Apple's new device is just the first step toward that imo, disastrous, dystopian, nightmarish, and way cool 😎. Still, given that screens are turning a generation's minds to mush, I could believe that's the _intention,_ and guess whose kids are probably not allowed anywhere _near_ the stuff....? I mean, I'm not saying it IS, but I _could_ believe it....

[@stephenboyington630]

I know nothing about AI at all. I do, however have children in middle school and a spouse who teaches at college. They all tell stories every week about middle school, high school and college students that use AI to cheat without a second thought. That cannot be good.

[@GS-kj5pc]

Elon Musk has become a villain over the past 5 years. He tries to gaslight people into blaming trans people and immigrants for their problems instead of raising his taxes.

[@hippodinoreserve6090]

Agree 100%. Use racism, misogyny, etc. to keep the poors at each others throats, so they are distracted away from the billons we make tax-free.

[@jonevansauthor]

While simultaneously paying more tax than any American who ever lived, and not even having been born there, not to mention starting multiple businesses which massively strengthened the American economy and have saved hundreds of thousands of lives already. Is he really a super villain as you suggest? No, not really. He may be weird on Twitter, but almost all his time he spends doing things that improve the planet (or breeding...).

[@GS-kj5pc]

@jonevansauthor I can't argue with an elon simp. It's a waste of my time. No matter what I say you will spin it in elons favor. I have several friends like you. No point in discussing with you.

[@robertpendergrass7996]

​​@@jonevansauthor That don't keep him from acting like he's entitled,or not liking immigrants or gay people.

[@delanaveirs3411]

Id see what Marc Cuban has to say about the wealthy paying their fair share in taxes before saying Elon pays more taxes than anyone.

[@ChildPerson]

It's Leap Year. So is Taylor going to make a proposal to Travis during half time? I will miss it as haven't watched Super Bowl ever in my 81 years. But I feel sure that everything will cover it.

[@jimmybass375]

Kara is one of my favorites. An important voice.

[@user-xd4rn5er1v]

Looks like a good way to control the masses

[@niningsetia4213]

Thanks FOR sharing video GOD BLESS everyone 😂😂❤❤❤❤

[@ErnestLauzon]

Both. American citizens should not be allowed to accumulate more than 1 billion dollars. Otherwise, it's too much power in the hands of one person. Elon Musk is the best example

[@jonevansauthor]

You do understand they don't have a billion dollars, right? There's not a Scrooge McDuck swimming pool of cash doing noting in their basement?

[@ErnestLauzon]

@@jonevansauthor with all dur respect, Elon Musk is worth 200 billion, Jeff Besos 175 billions, Bill Gates, 150 billions, Warren Buffet 150 billions, and the list goes on.

[@suhseal]

At what point after the transition to X does..... "Twitter Bait-y" become obsolete? ;) Kara is dryly hilarious and thoughtful. She makes me want to search for more talks she's given cuz her style is just so funny and straight forward. And to boot, this segment was really entertaining especially with you two cracking each other up. Thanks guys!

[@raoulhubris]

It's become more Twitterbatey

[@mauromatos3124]

Axios is client journalism for the rich and powerful.

[@DCGreenZone]

Some billionaires who bought their way into Tesla are 2.6x more likely to develop early onset dementia and or AZ. Get them chips ready boys, you are going to need them.

[@Thunder-Chief]

18:39 “Gretchen, stop trying to make 'fetch' happen, it's not going to happen!”