Are The Others Weirwood Shadow Babies? (Game of Thrones ASOIAF Theory)

In this video we will be talking about the others and ask the question, with how often they are called white shadows and cold shadows, could they be shadow babies? We will take a look at several things that make sense viewing the others this way and lay out a hypothetical timeline. There is a lot of guess work as any time we are discussing ancient times like the Age of Heroes but I do think it is a fun discussion. Hopefully you agree.
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[@admireinspire]

The last hero always felt so empty I guess it's left wide open for an explanation but MAN this mutually assured destruction theory just gave me chills it fits so perfectly...

[@myujmes]

I never thought about the "child's snow knight" comment until now, blew my mind. Sneaky George...

[@michaeltalksaboutstuff]

He is so sneaky like that all the time, the man has no right to be so sneaky

[@myujmes]

This only makes me want TWOW more... What secrets has he hidden in there... Anyway I thought your capitalist analogy was a really good way to explain the first men's "buy in" to power 👍🏼 love yr vids

[@SpiritStoneWarrior94-yx3gs]

One thing I just thought of, is that maybe when Alysanne got the First Night made illegal. She realised that her and Jahaerys made a mistake, by not knowing that it was used to keep the others at bay, and so that's part of the reason as to why they bolstered the numbers of the Nights Watch and gave them more lands. So they had more people that could be "sacrificed" to the Weirwoods lining the wall?

[@michaeltalksaboutstuff]

I think actually they(bloodraven/Bran/3-eyed crow) might be wanting to cut down the amount of sacrifice to the wall to end this whole system in the end. I used to think the cutting off the blood was a mistake that leads to the others coming back but thematically it would make more sense if this is the thing that is being worked toward. The cutting off the blood and then ending of the old ways that rely on blood sacrifice at a time when the table has been set for humanity to be able to handle it. A moment to build a new ways and start a new era for the world. Hopefully one where you don't have to sacrifice so many babies... This is possibly what all the visions and timeline stuff was manipulating toward. Therefore weirdly the weakening of the watch over time was a good thing. The wall coming down could be a good thing and the only way to get rid of the others if the source that cast them is inside the wall and guarded by its magic.

[@SpiritStoneWarrior94-yx3gs]

​@michaeltalksaboutstuff that actually makes a lot of sense with the way you're explaining it, as that would definitely fit with Georges themes of bringing down the old ways to make way for the new ways/progressing society further to give those "without a voice" a chance to make the world an overall better place 👌🏼

[@akeelyaqub2538]

​@@michaeltalksaboutstuffthank you, someone finally gets that sacrificing children to ice demons is not the way this story should end. Just because it may have kept them at bay (personally I hope its something far less anticlimactic and boring as that) that doesnt mean that it should be done again or that sacrificing was somehow good. Killing babies is never good.

[@honkeykong4049]

No, Alysanne was just a naggy shrew.

[@GampHead]

Sacrifice for the algorithm god

[@michaeltalksaboutstuff]

The trees appreciate your offering

[@swayback7375]

I think you missed the moral of the story, blood magic is not the answer

[@LisaAnn777]

​@@swayback7375what?! Blood magic is always the answer!

[@kai_plays_khomus]

Sacrifice properly then at least: 🫗 😁

[@alexmoes3225]

For the Algorithm!

[@KarlKarsnark]

"Wight/White Shadows" is great GRRMy wordplay, if nothing else. The biggest issue is that the WW have language, which means they have Culture, which means they have some sort of "permanence", rather than simply being "Avatars". Mel's baby seems to be a short-lived, one-off creation with no real "agency", or mind of its own. The WW seem to be able exist well beyond the location of the Wall itself, as well. If they were only "Avatars", they would have some sort of a limited "range" to them. (Mel and Stannis are relatively close when they release their baby.) The Wall may be a large "antenna", I suppose, but infinite power with infinite range and infinite "lifespan" is a bit much, even for "I have no idea how numbers work" GRRM. The WW's "need" intact, living, physical babies/bodies, and not just blood. Presumably, the Others are "growing them up" somewhere, (i.e. "Wight Walker High School"), mayhaps? This suggests they "exist" for a fairly long time. That, or it's just really bad narrative handwaving where a "baby" just POOF! turns into an "adult" WW killer overnight. Neither make much sense, until GRRM tells us what's so "special" about Craster's (incest) babies, in particular. The WW clearly need his magic blood, in particular, to perform their particular form of blood magic. As such, they can't be pure creations of the Wall alone. Craster's seed is "vital" to the process in some way(....ewwwww), and everyone knows it and respects it, even if they personally object to him and what he's doing. Neither the Starks, nor the Night's Watch ever tried to stop him, which is very telling, indeed. After all, if they know Craster is needed to make WW, why not just kill him long ago? Obviously, because doing so would be WORSE than letting him live. (i.e. the lesser of two evils.) Mayhaps, his babies may be "Tribute" paid to keep the WW at bay? The Others aren't purely physical, or purely immaterial and they do seem to "live" for a time. All the words GRRM uses with them are "old", "cold", "long", "hoary", "ancient", etc... There must be some set of magical "rules" they play by that makes them unique among "shadows". Mel's trick is seemingly learnable/teachable at R'hollor's School for the Dark Arts using any sort of "King's Blood"(whatever that means), but making WWs is a very "special" process that needs very specific ingredients in a very particular order. They may be "shadows", but they're not you typical off the shelf variety. Again, we need GRRM to tell us why Craster's blood is so important to see what might make a "White"/Snow Shadow different from a "Black"/Fire Shadow, as it were. There's surely some "Pact", or other that we don't know about yet, and Craster is the key. Without his babies, there seemingly cannot be any "Others" at all. Cheers!

[@michaeltalksaboutstuff]

I agee with a lot of this and a lot of these are the things that do make me still remain open minded. But here are some things I had thought about so far in regards to some of this. If it is a proximity thing and all the weirwoods are connected then it could be proximity to any weirwood. But also I think at one point Bran is told he will see beyond the trees eventually. Craster's sons I agree is a mystery to figure out how they use them. I could see them being put into the weirwoods like Brynden or like the guy on the TV show and their lifeforce used by the trees on some level making the shadows "Craster's sons" as they are said to be. But also still weirwood shadows. The language thing is an interesting one for sure because the only thing I could think is if they were shadows cast from different greenseers talking to each other but they are also said to be clones of the first so its interesting... Also tbh what need would a hivemind have for language at all... Will have to consider this more. But in general for sure agree they are not the typical shadows. They are highly advanced super deep/old magic versions of what Mel was doing. Probably a lot more to be learned about the details of the trees power and the whole deal in the Bran chapters to come.

[@Nenernener123]

Damn it Karl you are everywhere! I’m Shannon D from IDG btw. Had to change accounts to have family YT premium bc YT can suck!

[@coreyander286]

Maybe if the shadow babies of Melisandre and other shadowbinders managed to persist for thousands of years in their own fortress somewhere in the Shadow Lands, they'd develop their own personalities, culture, government, and will, too. Kind of like the robots in the video game _Stray._

[@gabrieladerre2862]

​@@coreyander286in real world teachings on magic, mysticism, witchcraft, etc., there are created entities, spirits, beings, or however you want to term it. Theyre typically made with a specific purpose, such as "protect the nursery, from any that enter it with ill will." And they're also supposed to be given a set time to exist. If I recollect right (anyone who cares can research it themselves,) it's typically suggested that their expiration date be within a month, or maybe a season. Because if not, they can sort of start to take on their own mind.. And then they can become problematic! Thats a whole other subject though! ☺️

[@KarlKarsnark]

@@Nenernener123 Hola. Yes, I'm shameless and will crash any cool channel I find :)

[@l.mcmanus3983]

This leads nicely into what is happening to Crastor’s sons. In the show we saw a child being turned into an Other. This could be a simplification of the process, and instead in the books the child male life force is used to birth a shadow.

[@michaeltalksaboutstuff]

Agreed. We know the babies are used somehow as a life force to make others. How exactly that would work is something to look into in the future for sure. I do think its possible there are some rank of the others who could be more like the people merged with the trees as well, so it is possible if given a live baby they can do some other magic beyond what could be normally done and make a different rank of others. Most likely they could somehow take a male baby to make a new source to cast shadows from. Therefore there could be some others that are shadows and some that are legit icy merged people, but so far it seems on page the ones we see are shadows.

[@simonholmes841]

Huh, I wonder if this is related to how Mel's shadowbabies only lasted hours, but the Others seem to last longer, like the longer gestation time leads to longer duration or something. Or Craster and his daughterwives aren't shadowbinders, so they have to do old-fashioned birth and leave the spellcasting bit to the cold gods. Since we never see the White Walkers around for very long either.

[@nakki123]

I think crasters sons are just used as blood sacrifice to weirwood trees or to old goods to keep the WW's fueled up.

[@Vmac1394]

To quote GRRM, the Others "are strange, beautiful… think, oh… the Sidhe made of ice, something like that… a different sort of life… inhuman, elegant, dangerous.” Relevant to ASoIaF, some sources say that the Sidhe were remnants of a group of the folk of the goddess Danu, who were forced to retreat into the Otherworld after being defeated by the Irish, or rather their ancestors. The depection of the Sidhe changed drastically over time so there is a lot to work with in terms of inspiration. However, the Sidhe are not temporary beings made for purpose in any interpretation and that's where Martin is drawing from before adding his own twists. I want to add that the Sidhe being residents of the Otherworld is almost certainly where Martin got the term "The Others" from.

[@aliensconfirmed3498]

"Forced to retreat" I am telling you that's what I always thought about them. The people who inhabited lands of winter until men came and came into conflict with them. They lost and retreated into farther north but now they have gathered their strength again and raging the war once again. Something like that. Obviously with lots of magic along with it.

[@itsmainelyyou5541]

The only issue is the fact that they have individual language and weaponry separate from the Children or men. The Other's make wights/shadow babies of their own. Mel's shadow baby was just a shade of Stannis. It wasn't corporeal and it didn't speak. It didn't wield weaponry of individual design. It didn't employ strategy and it didn't leave 'art' as a message. It dissipated directly after it's task was done. I think magic was employed in their generation somehow, but they are much more complex from the jump. They could be sentinels, but that doesn't quite equate to shadow baby. We don't even know for sure how the Weirwood came to be. We don't know if the Children actually had anything to do with the Others, other than the show narrative.

[@simonholmes841]

The Others' method of reproduction and 'art' are conspicuously absent from the books, and probably unique to the show narrative. Their weaponry is indeed separate from anything we see, though I'd say the closest thing is the shadow assassin's blade that rends steel just as easily. It's a little harder to explain away the language or general complexity that we don't see in shadowbabies. It's possible that if controlling the white walkers is similar to skinchanging, what sounds like a unique language is just the children working with what they have, like how Bran can only say "Hodor" when skinchanging Hodor. That's a stretch, I admit. But do we see inexplicable warmth when the shadowbabies come? Do flames brighten and grow in their presence, like the fires die when the Others come? Is there ancient lore about the shadows, or at least some thematically-resonant legends like Night's King and the 79 Sentinels and the Rat Cook and the Thing that Came in the Night?

[@coreyander286]

I think it's unnecessary to think, if the Others are shadow babies, they can't have a full culture, language, and will entirely separate from the Children. Maybe if the shadowbinder babies we're more used to lived thousands of years in one isolated geographic region, they'd develop language, adopt their own hobbies and personalities.

[@angelajansons9037]

Fire consumes, ice preserves. Icy shadow babies live until killed. Great theory, hope it's accurate. Also like the idea that some WWalkers were born to the Night's Queen/king. Perhaps these are the ones defending the Men, as the Night's king is lord commander of the Wall.

[@lbY123]

I’ve always thought there’s some kind of connection between the others and warging. That the wights are warged dead bodies, and the children of the forest using humans strength (their numbers) against them

[@Jacob-fz5ho]

Children of the Forest also struggled to survive through the long night, and worked alongside the first men. They saved the first men during the long night by teaching them how to create underground warded caves and survive off fish and funguses. Why would they do all of this for mankind if they had the white walkers under their control as their weapon? The Pact and abrupt change of stance towards the old gods and children is because of their mutual cooperation to survive the long night and the population bottleneck that occurred (first men who hate the CotF died off to the white walkers aboveground). The show posited that the White Walkers were a weapon and creation of the CotF that went rogue. That's possible. I instead think they're the exiled spirits driven from the weirwoods when they were invaded by mankind. Wargs took over the network and drove out the natural tree spirits. Blood sacrifices to weirwoods power the Others, but they also power the Old Gods and humans in the network like Bran and Bloodraven. The demons of the east come from a similar event happening with ifikevron (sp?) and shade of the evening trees.

[@Yamaazaka]

I feel like the white walkers are like agents smiths

[@minnumseerrund]

32:42 "Is this the place George is gonna teach us what we need to know about the Others?" Lol no. Best case scenario we're gonna get a post-homously released Silmarilion-esque work, but ol' man GraRa aint finishing ASoIaF

[@Life-Glug]

I'm really enjoying your videos, especially the way you tie in themes in ASOIAF to GRRM's personal politics. When I first read the description of the Children of the Forrest bound to the roots that Bran sees through Hodor, I thought that maybe they were in control of the White Walkers. But I didn't think about it with much sophistication. The quote about Sam stabbing a "child's snow knight" is a great find and definitly seems like the kind of joke GRRM would make. Another quote that might be relevant is when Bran is despairing to himself about how the Children just seem to sing sad songs about what happened to them. He considers that men would not act that way, they would curse and swear to take bloody vengeance. I love the idea that the traditions of the First Men may actually be more recent than the ways of the Andals and the religion of the Seven. But the First Men have been manipulated by the Children to think their customs are ancient.

[@JhuanVSales]

Technically their ways are the ways of the trees, and the trees and the children have been around for a while

[@Jacob-fz5ho]

Demons appear in the east of Essos during the first long night in the remains of the great empire of the dawn, fought against in the five forts. These coincide with the white walkers in the north of Westeros, during the first long night is when they appeared. Azor Ahai / The Bloodstone Emperor brought about the long night by summoning a meteorite with a horn that crashed into the earth, and apparently also brought about demons and white walkers. It likely has to do with the weirwoods and shade of the evening trees, where spirits and shades were driven out. Something happened to corrupt the shade of the evening trees, and to turn weirwood trees red, and it coincided with the long night, the strange seasons and the appearance of demons

[@tylerbryanhead]

I think "snow knight" is just what they call snow men. Pretty sure that's what they call them when kids are building snowmen in Winterfell

[@fibonaccino69]

You might as well start putting out 4 hour theory vids, we are ready for them.

[@BootsLee]

When tapping into this power source Bran has the ability to see the past, and the trees perceive time differently. Dose the Weirwood power know the future? In this scenario Bran and Bloodraven are tools controlled by this power, even if they think they are doing good. In fact they are serving this power. If time traveling Bran theory is true, then thru Bran this power can control the future?

[@michaeltalksaboutstuff]

Yes so this is where it gets into end game stuff. I think also one of the things GRRM knows is the system of power goes on and all you can do is have your effect on it. I think by the end we might see a rebirth of the world tree lead by Bran and our other characters. I think the trees might be using bloodraven and Bran to oversee their renewal and rebirth so they can bring in a new age and a new start with green magic like this age had 10,000 or so years ago. A bit of thoughts to put together before it is a video topic but on a basic level I see Bran as linked with the tree and also a tool of the tree to bring about renewal, but using this time of renewal the characters will be able to influence the new age of the world. The first line of the books being "We should start back" possibly in reference to the world needing a renewal and rebirth. We should start back at the beginning and build a new ways. I also think the trees might want to go on but the bodies connected might want death. The heart in conflict with itself. As for how much control one has over the other I think that might be a thing GRRM explores but I currently have no strong opinions.

[@chables74]

Algormancy!

[@KingOfTheHollows]

Excellent video. There are issues with this of course (they have a language, they seem to be permanent rather than simple avatars, Craster's sons, etc...). Maybe one should start with the following idea : the Others are "human-shaped artificial vessels created in order to provide eternal bodies for the souls trapped inside a weirwood net", and then expand on it by tying this idea to your excellent speculations.

[@davidwalker9988]

So night's king is south of the wall (Winterfell crypts?) needing blood sacrifice to survive (Ned in Godswood), night's queen is an other north of the wall (in the heart of winter?) needing blood sacrifice to survive (Craster's sons), and these were in a mutually assured destruction until the last hero sacrificed themselves & went into the greensea/astral plane from a weirwood that is now within the wall to resolve a pact of peace and save life in Planetos? Or NK/NQ/LH were all "the last hero" cleaning up the mess the COTF are making with all the death machines they're creating to wipe out man?? They were each hooked up to a weirwood north/south/in the wall as part of the pact. This would make so much sense of how Dany/Jon/Bran would play these roles in the current story too. I could really get behind the COTF just being evil and playing games with the men in the world too! Love your thinking through all these videos man, the themes & symmetries through them really seem to line up.

[@callumdunphy4846]

Your videos are really making me want to create my own channel. There’s so much great content in here, you keep providing evidence for my own grand theory/spin on everything! Ahhhh. Thank you

[@ArielEveMachado]

I like your theory in aspect of being trapped by systems of power but as you pointed out, George is a hippie and a big part of that movement was getting back to nature. This theory puts the weirwoods=nature as the bad guy and the one to defeat and makes the first men cutting down weirwoods a good thing. I can’t see George ending his story with a message of destroying nature being a good thing. Also, if both sides had WW shadows but men have forgotten that and think they’re nothing but stories, couldn’t the Children, who as of right now, control all the dreamers in Bloodraven’s cave just kill the humans generating humanity’s WWs and use theirs to attack humanity again?

[@michaeltalksaboutstuff]

So I think what we might find out in the end that the trees are needed but they need not be used in a corrupt blood magic way. I kinda think had the system not been corrupted in the past by those who wanted to use it for control the system could be better. In general I think GRRM might have our characters have an effect on the new system. So the goal by the end might be on some level to plant a new world tree that isn't corrupted by the old ways. Also they aren't just wiping everyone out in that case because at this point I think the actual goal might be a replanting of the weirwoods in a healthy state, possibly with Bran as a vessel to carry the world tree consciousness/spirit through the long night between the two ages.

[@Rafa36999]

@3:46 quite the leap in logic there

[@ronniecorbett6306]

Old Nan was a Child of The Forest in disguise to prepare Bran.

[@danieldeclue1466]

That definitely does sound feasible, although quite frankly I can't say I would fully agree on the others essentially having no overarching end goal. The reason I believe they may not only have their own goals thoughts feelings purposes, but I firmly believe after rereading the books that the first chapter shows us that they are not aimlessly roaming around, they are actively looking for someone. They singled out sir Weimar Royce, and up until they were sure he was not the person they were looking for, they showed him respect, and caution. However, once they froze his blade and shattered it, they began laughing. Then they butchered him with zero respect. They are actively searching for someone slender and graceful with gray eyes, and a special sword. Funny thing... Jon Snow looks extremely similar to waymar Royce. They are both described as Slender and graceful with gray eyes. I don't know they are looking for him but I'm certain that their goal is to find John.

[@reefermonster9651]

bloodraven?

[@danieldeclue1466]

@@reefermonster9651 I had also wondered this as well. Blood Raven certainly fits the bill of a dangerous warrior with a special sword, but I personally don't believe it's blood Raven they are looking for simply because he and John don't look alike, with the different colored hair and blood Raven scar on his face and purple eyes and all that. Seems a silly reason to write him off I know, but I think it speaks volumes that the white walkers clearly singled out, and cautiously approached waymar royce. They saw him and believed they should take him seriously for some reason. And then they clearly stopped taking him seriously upon his weapon breaking. The reason I think this connects to John is because it is noted more than once, I believe, that he looks very similar to Sir waymar. I don't think the white walkers know specifically who John is, but I think they know what he's supposed to look like. I could be completely wrong but that's at least my take on it

[@aliensconfirmed3498]

Which book does it say that they are actively looking for someone? And slender with Grey eyes? Talking of the theory I have thought earlier that Others and Jon do have some sort of connection. It crossed my mind when Mance and his company and Jon, they reached Fist to see dead had attacked Mormont's camp and Mance wonders why haven't they been attacked. I thought of two possibilities. Either that they were looking for horn and horn was on the Fist so they specifically attacked Fist. Or them not attacking Mance's party had something to do with Jon being there. May be they don't want to put Jon in risk. But this theory says that they know Jon and where he is and not just looking for him.

[@danieldeclue1466]

@@aliensconfirmed3498 the book never actually says they are looking for someone. But you can tell by the way they single out waymar royce in the very first chapter. Any other time the others Target someone in the books they only send one of them, or else a couple walkers. At no other point in the books do six of them surround one enemy. The book makes it very clear that they cautiously approach waymar and decide that he is not who they are looking for as soon as his sword breaks. Very next chapter, John is also described as a slender gray-eyed black-haired youth, and Sansa even remarks that he looks similar to her bastard brother Jon Snow

[@CLCHRD]

any thoughts on storms ends role in all of this, the third construction bran the builder helped to build besides winterfell and the wall? can't imagine it's just so milesandre can show us reader the magic blockades as forshadowing the magic blockade at the wall

[@j3fr0uk]

Never thought or heard of this.. Awesome vid!

[@thisguy8106]

Great video, as always!

[@connorhinsley6991]

Some head-canon speculation AND maybe relevant tree fact for you Its occurred to me there could be a parallel between the three heads of the dragon where two humans and a dragon "merge" and the tradition of marriage before a weirwood. Your phrased it as "wed themselves to the trees" at 23:31 as the source of these old green magics like warging and greensight. Could be a case of two groups independently discovering the "same" ritual, OR it could be a sign that a group ALREADY using this ritual used, planted, incepted the ritual to create dragonriders. Same ties to specific bloodlines that performed the initial ritual. I would be interested on your perspective of what message George may have been getting at with how the ways these old houses eventually collapsed. Like in the lens of progressive vs conservative tradition, maybe the Targs losing sight of their purpose in favor of infighting is a commentary on progressive politics often being hamstrung by infighting that loses sight of the big picture goal. The dance of dragons occurred largely from groups cynically wielding tradition to seize power and a cascade of revenge from there. If instead the Targ's had focused on the big picture and not let things escalate, they may have lasted longer. You also made a comment about the weirwoods (or whatever controls them) having their own goals or influencing things to their own interest. Imagine Ned's death and the war of the five kings being the result of weirwood influence. It would even tie into progressive commentary of inherently flawed institutions. Ned's insistence on honor and resolving things honorably led to his execution (over Joffrey basically power tripping with no thought of the consequences) and spiraled into the war of the five kings (which parallels the dance in this context). All these armies dying across the seven kingdoms, and their blood seeping into the soil for the weirwoods to soak up is awfully convenient. AND a bit of tree knowledge that may be relevant (and is a cool thing about trees that could tie to the themes): Trees connect to each other through their roots IRL. A parent tree can shoot out suckers (new trees) by extending its root system horizontally and then new trees sprout from these subterranean roots. If the parent tree tips over, it can be KEPT ALIVE by its children. They send it the nutrients it cannot get without leaves to photosynthesize, and it send back stuff it can do as a stump. Check it out: allabouttrees.com/alive-stumps/ When all the weirwoods were "destroyed", did it ever mention the ROOT SYSTEM being dug up??? If not, could this current status quo in westeros (one which never resolved the impacts of past evils, even if those traditions mostly stopped) basically just be laying in wait for a sufficiently large blood bath to set the whole thing in motion again. EDIT: to expand, this could be a comparison to progressive commentary on political movements where individuals will stop doing something bad because they themselves are not bad, but out of personal inconvenience or underlying prejudices, these same individuals will neglect to or outright refuse to fundamentally reform or replace the offending institution. For Americans, this is like abolishing slavery and at least on paper establishing equal rights, but not taking the extra steps to address the full consequences of slavery by instituting meaningful reparations or actually ensuring equal justice under the law in practice. Drawing a comparison to the canon you've speculated about here, a lot of the same arguments come up. "Lots of people rely on this system, and they have for hundreds or thousands of years. Change would come at a cost, there is no guarantee that the person with the power to effect change would STILL hold power after that very change." That does not mean change is not necessary or good. To build on this, think of the lesson Dany learns when she frees a city of slaves because she doesn't want to be a slaver, but she does nothing meaningful to address the actual institution of slavery, even if Dany gets to feel better about herself. This is another time that Dany's "unrelated" adventures in Essos could be spelling out the thematic/actual end of the books. Like an intro section laying out the same themes that will be wrapped up in the conclusion. If we got the reveal, that the weirwoods are close to if not THE proverbial "big bad", imagine finding out that the weirwoods were managing to get their blood by any means like any blood ritual would if you stopped using sacrifices. They set these wars in motion to get the blood they need, and could spring out of the ground all over westeros if called upon, maybe using the same method bran the builder did. Like with the shaking trees with a magic horn, imagine a ritual that calls grows a tree from anywhere the weirwood roots extend (and enough blood has been shed). For example if a horn was blown on the Isle of Faces, and that proximity range you speculated about just needs to hit PART of a weirwood network. Imagine the horn is blown in the south and all these trees spring up with wars worth of blood to launch shadows at the realm, adding some additional stakes to a diplomatic ending. Like even a tense march south led by undead Jon under guest rite, with a "will they? won't they?" risk of someone breaking the guest rite, is a bit anticlimactic unless someone breaks guest rite and George is just doomer-pilled and thinks any effort is futile because people suck. I think your ending is much more thematically sound than some big battle, but perhaps something like Young Griff or little finger wielding this metaphorical nuke and threatening to set the whole thing in motion again, or they hear reports of the wall coming down, and turn to weirwood blood magic out of fear - fighting shadow with shadow. Like the wall comes down, the others are freed to go home, and the final conflict would be the "progressive" group that "fixed" the underlying issue, will now have to convince someone groomed to rule over Westoros to let go of fear, to let go of absolute power, and to trust in those he has been told his whole life are against him - who are "others" to him. tl:dr trees can keep each other alive through their roots and exchange nutrients/electrical signals, so weirwood net is not that far-fetched. the root system being left after the trees were cleared and just waiting for enough blood to grow back (or be resurrected by a "bran the builder"-type), I think would tie into the themes you've been exploring in your videos, namely commentary on progressive politics, but also drawing some parallels between story components. (also I think this could bring a bunch of storylines together and present more tension for the climax/final resolution)

[@LuccaV1314]

Great video bro

[@catelyntalks]

I wonder if the ice queen is still alive and that's where hes taking the babies. Not that they don't have another purpose.

[@michaeltalksaboutstuff]

I think there is definitely a chance of that, or some new figure filling the same role. I call it the reverse Craster theory that someone would be using the boys strapped to trees to birth others in this way.

[@alyswesthill3562]

This video is an excellent explanation of how capitalism and class systems work, as well as a breakdown of why the powers that be will never tackle human suffering and social issues like homelessness and poverty; there needs to be an underclass - a group of people who have it worse than you - so you feel motivated to keep upholding capitalism as a means to take care of your loved ones. It doesn’t matter how left a politician or party claims to be; they cannot dismantle systems of class control and white supremacy without letting go of the status and worldview they possess, and so they never will. If a politician says their aim is, for example, to end homeless, but they have no intention of breaking down the power structures that they thrive in, then they are lying about that aim. Excellent stuff as always Michael!

[@eric2500]

Cast by the Greenseers? Why not shadow babies the Night's Queen had with the Night's King?

[@michaeltalksaboutstuff]

I think some of them were born exactly that way. Night's King + Night's Queen. I think he might have had to strap himself to the tree to do it. I just think it might not have been the only time others were birthed.

[@eric2500]

They'd be very old by now...

[@michaeltalksaboutstuff]

@@eric2500 Very very old. I do think tho there is set up for there to be a chance they are strapped there alive. They would be in a similar state to the past greenseers Bran sees wed to the tree roots in the cave. Their eyes follow the torch and one opens its mouth like it is trying to say something. So the trees seem to keep the bodies alive a long time after their time as an active greenseer. I agree it is an insane amount of time to keep them alive strapped there but the bodies in the cave may have been crazy old too, we have no idea. Also the ones in the wall would be literally frozen on ice... So like the classic sci-fi body preservation method mixed with the established in world weirwood preservation. I think it is at least plausible they are still there. Maybe not in a form that could speak if they are exposed, but man would it be fun if they were unfrozen and could tell us things...

[@umwha]

24:00 ' He's a hippie therefore it makes sense that he wrote a series about how evil tree worship is' .... UMMMMM

[@CharlieSteele-b4e]

So basically the weirwoods are also playing The Game of Thrones

[@Nenernener123]

6:39 George has also complained REPEATEDLY about Gandalf being resurrected. Seems odd since it is such a given Jon dies, goes to Ghost, & returns.

[@umwha]

I think he complained that Gandalf was 'unchanged'. Therefore, Martin response to that is Stoneheart - a drastically different character. I can only imagine Jon will be fundamentally changed too

[@Nenernener123]

@@umwha Yes he did complain about that as a secondary. He’s pretty clear he was mad & he should have stayed dead. But he also thought the internet would argue if Jon was even actually dead, which we all assume he is.

[@Neumonics429]

I have no doubt that there was a faction of the children of the forest who helped man. I think, like you said earler, George doesnt like writing good vs evil. So I think having the children vs the children would be very fitting, especialy as a paralell to the Starks vs Lanasters. Whoever's on top there is always disagreements and war.

[@nickbuysman1869]

Choild this be the mother of the others?: He saw no more of his father, nor the girl who looked like Arya, but a woman heavy with child emerged naked and dripping from the black pool, knelt before the tree, and begged the old gods for a son who would avenge her.

[@Krackonis]

Imagine if Lady Stoneheart becomes the Night's Queen and births the babies? Out of revenge.

[@manassatam9189]

If the command is to fight humans, we have seen zombie bear and giants too

[@TimboBaggins187]

I'm only half way through but... A child of the forest and the last hero create a weapon to ensure mutually assured destruction called Lightbringer?

[@gabrielhunter2472]

Really good! The sucky thing is if GRR was planning this (which would’ve been awesome) now that this guy theorized it GRR has to come up with something else… probably why it’s taking so long 😅

[@BigHoss03]

Others = shadow babies confirmed ☑️

[@kendallbabbitt1532]

Yes yes yes I live for this closure.

[@flosse89]

Where this theory falls down for me is that it requires at least two factions of the Others, one created by the CotF and one created by the Last Hero. But there is no evidence for this in the books afaik.

[@eric2500]

Control OF the weirwoods or control BY them?

[@bamaha24]

So the last hero used his pack dogs to do what? Make a dog/weirwood network

[@fivemuller894]

I dont think the war between the first men and the children of forest. Credit to david lightbringer but his theories seem to fit better. The first men took land, raged war and burned the trees. Then the first night occurred and the children and men had to work together and made a pact. This way noone had clear superiority. Weather the white walker are the ghostes of the children of the forest banished from the weirwood trees buy asor ahai (David Lightbringer) oder the shadow babies of someone ( this video) is interesting to debate.

[@CNERail]

So, "the great other" is the weirwoods themselves...which are in fact one...great...entity.

[@Bones1220]

What happens to Winterfell after the candles are snuffed?

[@donkeysaurusrex7881]

I’ve never read the books, and I have watched less than say 10 episodes with intent. I have watched a lot of these theory and lore videos though, and I have a theory I haven’t seen mentioned elsewhere. Can y’all give me your thoughts? One thing folks talking about all this say a lot is that Martin builds things up and then does the opposite a lot of the time. With that in mind we’ve heard over and over about what badasses the Dothraki are, and we’re probably supposed to identify them with historically badass steppe nomads. What if the Dothraki end up in Westeros and prove ineffective? I think there’s some evidence for this (though it may be my ignorance). The Dothraki seem to use swords instead of bows which was one of the things that made real life steppe nomads such badasses. Second, there’s a scene in the show where one of the guys with Dany let’s The Dothraki strike him while in armor because they don’t believe the armor will protect him only to find they can rain blows upon him while he stands there not just uninjured but barely even noticing their blows.

[@michaeltalksaboutstuff]

I do think the Dothraki could end up being ineffective but there is also some build up to them being able to destroy the countryside but maybe not touch castles at all. The knights in armor they certainly would have trouble with but at some point if there is enough of them they kill their horses and overwhelm them. So it isn't a bad take, they could end up being pretty useless but it all depends on how many she comes back with and what they are sent to do.

[@JuanThunder79]

I would need someone else to verify where in the books Jorah mentions this but my understanding is that the Dothraki do indeed use curved bows and also have access to a great vow with a range greater than the bows of the Seven Kingdoms (source a wiki of ice and fire).

[@captainmaim]

What about the heart of winter? isn't that potentially the big bad that took control of the weirwood net and caused the imbalance of the seasons? Arya kills the heart of winter and frees the weirwoods and the Children of the Forest.

[@jpmzo]

How to explain Caster's sacrifices then...?

[@SelphieTheNutter]

I think you're on the right track, but when it comes to the first hero tapping into the weirwood net to birth a shadow baby, I think you might be a little off. If he discovered their magic, then why offer people up to increase the shadow armies ranks, by worshiping the weirwood trees. I don't think the others where reprogrammed to be enforcers of the old ways either. Simply because of the Starks. Why would the Starks dedicate themselves to being the watchers of the north, and make their house motto "Winter is Coming" if the others where on their side (since house Stark is one of the few who still worships the old ways). I think the others are a type of shadow baby, but birthed more through warging. The trees keep an eye on Westeros to see if humans are keeping their word, the moment they start returning to chopping down Weirwood trees they warg into the others.

[@fetmar]

I'm convinced no one has anything figured out as well as you

[@kaiden247]

Understandable

[@notfromhere8889]

Martin was on some powerful drugs

[@goatskin4487]

I disagree with them being shadow babies because it trampled on multiple other ideas you set up earlier. If the Others are shadow-babies then they can’t be the undying in the house of the undying (you can’t have a shadow of a shadow) which would disconnect dany from these events. Another issue is that the human motivation of the others to return to the trees would be eliminated since now they’re just the the tree or some guy’s shadow. It would seem much more thematic for the others to be a threatening race the protagonists have to negotiate with rather then just mindless puppets like the zombies. In fact you would think the others wouldn’t even be needed when you already have zombies serving as the mindless horde trope.

[@davec9031]

I do have a big question though. If we give that the pact was to worship the trees, so that the tree religion remains in control, and there are tangible entities that enforce this power, how have any other religions gained any kind of foothold in Westeros? Just about the entire populous of the continent worships the Seven, and a small but probably sizeable Red God faction is also there. And the vast majority of the continent believes that the WMD entities are fairy tales. Wouldn't a supposedly power hungry faction as described want to snuff those competitors out? Do the other religious factions also have some kind of real tangible power on the level of the Others? I love the Wall tree idea. This one, not so much.

[@ScarlitWidow]

😂 tell me how you feel! ❤ It! Keep it up!

[@SolitariusAdvena]

But does it track?

[@grifter0]

you have to be writing your own books by now, you'll have to finish writing this damn series LOL

[@ismata3274]

If by some scant chance this theory group of yours prove wrong..... PLEASE WRİTE it as A BOOK!

[@michaeltalksaboutstuff]

The ideas I discuss here are on some level how I try to world build so at least on some thematic levels I will eventually have some stories out that work somewhat like the things I discuss. A big reason I got so into trying to solve things like this is to try learn what GRRM is doing with his world building and foreshadowing and how he hides clues to take lessons for my own future writing.

[@ismata3274]

@@michaeltalksaboutstuff 😃😃😃 grrreat! 😁🤩👍

[@justincurll1110]

I'd like to see a fantasy story about the younger generation screwing things up royally, like they're trying to right now.

[@djgrundel224]

Bro made an entire video off of taking descriptions to literally

[@rchr5785]

👍

[@Rafa36999]

@2:30 no stanis wanted another shadow baby n she said his fore runs low...nother wack theory lolz

[@Pr0digyZRX]

The faceless men are no one... leaf is everyone and the trees rule the world with the others like the mfin mafia... I apparently didn't understand asoiaf at all 😂😂😂

[@TheMikesc15]

This is in no way a dig at the video itself, more so at George R R Martin. 7:40 I find it super funny and honestly a bit dumb that a person such a George, someone whom LOVES history and clearly derives a lot of his work FROM it, would even question what they did with the orcs in LOTR after the whole outcome.. I mean, have you read any war history ever? Obviously they'd exterminate them lmao, I see absolutely no other logical conclusion the races would take after almost getting literally obliterated by them. I mean think about it, we lined germans up and gunned them down in the streets even though we thought it was horrible when they did that to jewish people and polish. These are ORCS... that showed literally zero humanity ever, obviously we would kill every last one of them that didn't flee east enough

[@warpedwhimsical]

No views with 86k likes 😂

[@SpiritStoneWarrior94-yx3gs]

It only shows 13 likes total for me......

[@warpedwhimsical]

@@SpiritStoneWarrior94-yx3gsweird mine still says 86k. Must be some glitch

[@SpiritStoneWarrior94-yx3gs]

​@loooongneck yeah that's pretty weird tbf haha it says 84 views and 13 likes still even after I closed the app and opened it again 😅

[@ismata3274]

203 views 24 likes at present.

[@michaeltalksaboutstuff]

Can confirm I am not yet popular enough for 86k likes haha. I saw it at 2 likes before views had time to show up which is very nice of all of you though. But I also watched a different video on youtube this morning and it said it had zero likes despite being years old so I think there was some glitches going on for a bit.

[@Hegelianshitposting]

V nice v nice

[@eric2500]

The Night's Queen could still be "alive". Not sure if she was a woman at the time. She might have been once, like Mel.

[@leomesser415]

We need to get George to watch this I think he kinda forgot this others lore backstory and it’s making it even harder to finish all the povs bc he somehow isn’t sure about what’s coolest to do for the others and Valyria and dragons maesters, and children of the forest and other mythical creatures

[@genechowder]

Just catching up on all these 9mths later so I wasn't even going to comment but dude you might actually be a genius. I've had all these puzzle pieces in my head for *12* years now and it's an unreal feeling to watch you (seemingly effortlessly) put the puzzle together. I think you're spot on with 99% of your theories. The way you weave in the literal text with what goerge is trying to go for is incredible; not to shade presron too hard but this is always what I wanted from his videos that I think he just genuinely can't deliver.

[@eziowayne]

Your theories are great! Keep up the great work :)

[@MrSilvUr]

So is the idea that an ice dragon is a dragon shadow baby? Mel says the brightest flames cast the darkes shadows (or something), and you'd think dragons would have a lot of "life-fire". Ice dragons are supposed to be huge.

[@Bradstephens11]

I think it would line up if the "shadow babies" birthed by last hero, were dragons. Fire vs ice and all. White walkers are nukes, as are dragons.

[@jeffreygarty8214]

I dont know if i agree with them being actual shadow babies like the one Mel created but i do think its interesting that they only can exist on the north side of the wall or the shadow side.

[@Brellowcrop]

It's basically like Milisandre's shadow baby binded to an icy body, me thinks 🤔 but instead of Stannis' 'life fires,' it's Craster's male children energy.

[@aaronhumphrey2009]

Possible. Those blue- eyed wight babies grew up into something. We didn't see thier maturation, but it's likely they are the White Walkers, acting directly under the Night Kings command.

[@Brellowcrop]

@@aaronhumphrey2009 I think that is a show only thing. I dont think there are baby white walkers or teenage white walkers in the books. I think it's just the life force of babies, maybe special babies, being sucked out and used to power dead spirits in the trees

[@johnbuxton4484]

Can't wait to get stuck into this! New theory to me for sure!

[@RamblinManTV]

Makes sense that George supported the writing strike, considering he's been on strike for 13 years or so.

[@gg2fan]

The comparison to the function of capitalism is excellent. It kinda drives me crazy to see people mostly critique capitalism along pathological lines, saying the problem is 'greed'. Like no, the problem is the fundamental logic of the system that HAS to act this way. That's why the system is bad and has to change, not just the people carrying it out, because as you put it so well here, power wields them. If they refuse to make the decisions prescribed by their position, they'll just be booted from their position to be replaced by someone who will. George is in a vein that produced a lot of great American writers. Guys who are very, very clearly wanting to be Marxists, but whose brains were washed by the red scare and the cold war so they have an incredibly marxist perspective and critique of power, but may not even realize that other people have already had the same thoughts and developed them intensely with anti-capitalist, historical materialist political theory. This leads to these authors going into some very creative places as they wrestle with and and share their beliefs in terms of metaphor and magic, sometimes the cognitive dissonance between their internalized liberalism and the marxism knocking on the door of their brains comes out on the page and creates some very interesting stuff. Frank Herbert is another guy I would put in this category. Alas, we don't really have those anymore, Trump caused the bottom to fall out so now you're either one of his, or an outright marxist who wasn't raised under the red scare like myself which allowed us to dive in headfirst instead of keep it at an arms length, or a liberal descending into more and more insular echo chambers of conspiratorial neurosis who have become COMPLETELY uncritical of power unless Trump is personally corrupting it, because the entire mental matrix of the American liberal has been rewired from the bottom up to revolve only around Trump. This was the deathknell of the conscientious left liberal like George, because democrats are the new ra ra patriotism, natsec brained, letter agency worshiping warhawks of the American political landscape. there's no more cognitive dissonance left to have, they're just totally in the tank for American imperial propaganda.

[@wandaXmaximoff]

I’m watching this in 2024, less than a week away from the HotD season 2 finale. Given all the Alys and Harrenhal content this season, plus Fire & Blood based speculation on what Alys does next, I wonder if she’s a child of the forest (given that she’s a ~200-400 year old woods witch) who is trying to have a child with Targaryen blood.

[@michelesilva9491]

Interesting theory. I hate that we don’t have more info about the others when they are the main antagonists in the story. We don’t know how or why or when they were made or came to be. We don’t know why they are back or what they want. We have a time line that doesn’t make sense and bits n pieces of info. Which leads us to theories that aren’t based on much. I do like this it makes a lot of sense. But there’s one problem that stands out to me. I know the show and books are 2 different things but GRRM has said the idea that Aegon the conqueror had a dragon dream about the others coming to destroy humanity came from him. It’s clear on HOTD that the old gods/trees are actively trying to prevent the next long night and defeat the others. If they are the ones controlling them why send dreams to ppl showing ppl what they must do to fight them. And if they are shadows being sustained by ppl somewhere in the tree roots they could just send ppl dreams/visions to kill the ppl in the tree roots that are sustaining the shadows/others and that would kill them. So unless the books are going in a completely different direction this can’t work. And based on the fact that GRRM wants Aegon to have the the dream of ice n fire that tells me he is behind the direction. So I don’t know about this one. But it’s well thought out and makes a lot of sense. I wish GRRM would give us a prequel book about the creation of the others and takes us through the long night and to how they were defeated. I feel like we deserve that. I know we’ll never get it but I wish we would. We’ll be lucky if we ever get the main series finished.

[@Pr0digyZRX]

I'll be honest... so far I've heard 1 solid theory that actually fully made sense to me. But I'll say this I still like the channel cause if nothing else it's entertaining 😂 like how Leaf is basically everyone in westerosi history Like the other's are described to be like shadows... while davos said the shadow baby WAS a terrible shadow. Slightly different wording but makes a pretty big difference. I'm just not seeing the otbers being shadow babies

[@robertofernandez7178]

Nah... the others are definately children of the forest creations that they produced to kill the first men because they were invasive and the weapon went out of control. That's one of the things that George definately outlined to the showrunners...

[@ScarlitWidow]

So, if you think that GRRM is mirroring his generations story, maybe the reason he can't finish WOW is because the world is in such a horrific place. Please, everyone, call down and let GRRM finish!

[@honkeykong4049]

Did I miss the part where you talk about the Night's King?

[@martinmullender-taeter5163]

The whole theory hinges on the assumption that the white walkers were made in westeros and shoved behind the wall... Problem with that is the fact that the long night was an issue in essos too... All over the world actually, so its a world problem, not a westeros problem, and therefore i believe that the origins of the white walkers have very little to do with the war between the first men and the children, i actually think it was the threat of the white walkers that forced them to make peace.... So yeah i highly doubt they were made during the war, yes i think they are tied to the children somehow.... And shadowbinding has more to do with what happened at Stygai, the taint over Asshai, and the shadowlands, its also completely different magic from the white walkers

[@brandonadamek3123]

Great theory, man. Wish this damn book would come out already…

[@nononono3421]

A shadow on the wall. A mummer’s trick.

[@DutchVanDerLenin7609]

This video gives me an idea for a historical analogy found with the text. It's not related to the events of aGoT onward, but rather the broader events of Westeros. This is a statement supporting your argument that historical context influenced the work of the author, GRRM. This, of course being in regards to the aspect of mutually assured destruction being the guiding force of international politics. One world reshaping event that occurred during the 1960's, as we all know too well, was the assassination of President John F. Kennedy. Now, stepping back into Westeros, we see that the Ashford Tourney is set during an age of prosperity. The Targaryen dynasty is set. Comfortable, much like the United States during the 1960's. American capitalist, free market economy reigning supreme over the entire western hemisphere. Then, suddenly and tragically the shining heir and hero of the kingdom is brought down by a fatal wound to the back of the head. I mean they called his home Camelot, For crying out loud! Does George have to spoon feed it to us? 😂 Anyway, this is an idea I had rattling around in my head for a while.

[@DutchVanDerLenin7609]

(Edit: TL;DR) Baelor Breakspear = JFK

[@JhuanVSales]

I love that we got to the point where "the others are the police of the trees" makes too much sense

[@georgemelitsis2607]

Great channel

[@bahhhhumbug9804]

🌲🍹🩸

[@Loreweavver]

Kind of but more complicated than that. The shadow baby wasn't a shadow. It had substance. I'm convinced the black stone is a living thing that was awakened by the comet. The black stone is of the same stuff as the shadow baby and the others are reanimated by the black blood just as they revived the mountain as Robert strong.

[@michaeltalksaboutstuff]

This is a good thought. I do view the black stone/comet as a fiery counter-part to the ice weirwoods in some ways so I really do like the idea that it works on some level like that. Will have to think more on this

[@Loreweavver]

@@michaeltalksaboutstuff in this way of viewing it the black stone/blood is a thing of nature. It may have its own desires but for the most part all we see is people using the 'magic' for their own purposes.

[@michaeltalksaboutstuff]

@@Loreweavver So that also tracks with my thoughts pretty well. I need to dig in deeper before covering it but at the moment I view the oily black stone/the moon/the comet as a whole as like the corruption of the moon/stone which was a force of nature it the same way as the world tree weirwood. So the breaking of the moon is a corruption of nature magic for the use by people in the same way as the building the wall and using the world tree for blood magic. This could be why both caused long nights in the local places where they happened. It is also possible the two events were fully connected. The ancient histories are all muddy but something along those lines to me makes sense. The breaking of the moon and the corruption of the weirwoods also match each other if they store the souls of dead people in dragons using the magic of the corrupt broken moon in the same way they seem to store souls in the tree for an afterlife. Both cases people corrupting nature to take its magic to try avoid their death. Both cases lead to world damaging consequences. But yes moon/stone and weirwood trees have that force of nature, source of magic with a will of its own vibe on the same level for sure IMO.

[@Loreweavver]

@@michaeltalksaboutstuff i can explain it all with sci-fi cosmic horror by saying it's all Shoggoth or nanomachines think of the black stuff in the alien movies. I think you're more or less right but I don't think it's ever going to be explained and it may not need to be. I think the moon or some other heavenly body did break and the black stone and maybe even the dragons come from outer space. I think there are bigger stones deep in the oceans. It is probably eons old. Check out some of the Robert Howard stories like Conan or more specifically "The Black Stone" which deals with a sample of a stone that could date to before Conan that survives to modern day. Personally I think it would be hilarious if at the end everyone is dead and a spaceship lands with colonizers.

[@Loreweavver]

@@michaeltalksaboutstuff kzbin.info/www/bejne/eZ-6Y6F9bK2UsJYsi=9as4GoMkb-MTtcCh

[@FatherhoodAndFitness]

So does this mean the wildlings from the Mountains Of The Moon are also Wight Walkers? Since Tyrion describes them in a similar fashion in the first book? 😂

[@4984christian]

20:00 so meta