Are the Torii S4s subwoofer KILLERS?

[@TheJoyofVinylRecords]

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[@Jonhobbs64]

I didn't realize it until i was about 40 , but my upbringing made me a natural audio "snob" 😂 My father taught me to string up his akai reel to reel m7 tape recorder that he brought back from japan in the late 60's (i was five) ,complete with matching akai ss 100 speakers. (Air force) . I was listening to herb alpert, a hard days night , soundtrack from the wizard of ozz etc....fast forward to the 1980's ... Pioneer HPM 100 speakers , sx 1980 , ( i still have both but sx 950 is for daily use. ) i never had a subwoofer or even wanted different speakers ( i have many) but this video has raised my eyebrows! Im going to check it out! I love your channel❤

[@TheJoyofVinylRecords]

Thanks, Jon! Much appreciated. The SX 950 is a classic.

[@eversosleight]

This sounds very interesting to me, someone who's been considering a subwoofer and towers for a while. I'm super curious and will look further into these. Thanks for sharing!

[@TheJoyofVinylRecords]

I was definitely impressed!

[@carminedesanto6746]

Good afternoon ☕️ Speakers and rooms are inherently linked …a speaker that has fantastic bass and everything ells 1:30 ….rooms will be the determining factor in weather you need a sub or not. Now ..if you’ve done placing and room treatment for best results…you may not need it. Great video. 👍

[@TheJoyofVinylRecords]

Thanks Carmine! I’m actually pricing out some diffusers right now. No decisions yet

[@NoEgg4u]

There are still benefits to having sub-woofers, even with speakers that can effortlessly reproduce 20 Hz. 1) The ideal placement for your speakers, where they throw a great soundstage and the speakers disappear, etc, might not be ideal for bass. The speakers can be pumping out clean, accurate bass, and yet due to the room, that bass might have a dip or hump at some frequency. The dip or hump is not from the speakers. It is after the bass leaves the speakers and reaches your ears. The room is un-flattening the bass in its travels between the speakers and your ears. With sub-woofers, you can place them in odd places (even behind you), to compensate for room issues. 2) With powered sub-woofers, and a high-pass filter, you can reduce the amount of produced with your main speakers, by handing most of the bass's job to your sub-woofers. That provides two beneftis: 2a) Less effort will be needed by your main amps, with a high-pass filter. The sub-woofer's amps will take over most of that effort. By having you main amps work less (due to the high-pass filter reducing the bass demand on the main amps), then your main amps will do a better job with the mids and highs. That will be especially helpful with voices, which our brains are very sensitive to, in terms of recognition and realism. 2b) With the main speakers producing less bass, their cabinets will shake less. That will result is that the mid-range driver and the tweeter driver will shake less. And that will allow those drivers to project a more focused sonic image. For #2, above, that gets into eeking out the last bit of sonic accuracy. But you will hear the improvement. The flip side is that it takes some effort and $$ to set it up and get it right. For #1, above, that can benefit just about any stereo. At my local high-end store, they have Vandersteen's flagship speakers, that can shake the room at 20 Hz, with ease. Yet, they still use sub-woofers. I have heard that system before they had the sub-woofers, and I thought that the bass was fine. But with the subs, the improvement was noticeable. But that was an extreme case for a wildly expensive system. My speakers do not need a sub, but I wish that I had one (or two), because I know the benefits. But I can neither afford the upgrade, nor do I have any space for a sub-woofer. But for those that can do it, they should.

[@TheJoyofVinylRecords]

This is great info - thanks for that. There's a sub I'm still considering and will have to wait until it's available before I decide to check it out.

[@tonyvaldiconza3914]

That's exactly what Paul McGowan recommends, except he recommends running the speakers full range and I do too. I run two SVS 3000 Micro subs with my Magnepan 1.7i. SVS has an app so you can setup the subs from your listening position, no more sub crawls for tuning.

[@NoEgg4u]

​@@tonyvaldiconza3914 I agree with nearly everything that McGowan advises. But I disagree on running the main speakers full range, when you have sub-woofers. But there might a a misunderstanding as to the definition of "running the main speakers full range." The woofers in the main speakers should not be turned off. They should still be producing all bass frequencies; just at a lesser DB level, which the satellite subs fill in. Also, please note that McGowan never mentioned the benefit of the main speakers shaking less, and McGowan never mentioned the benefit of less of a load on the main amps. Those two items I learned from Richard Vandersteen. I was at my local high-end store, in Verona, NJ. Richard Vandersteen was a guest (he pays a visit every November). He brings up many topics, and talks about what is on his agenda, etc. He also has one-on-one discussions with whoever else is at the event. One November, several years ago, when I walked in to the store's "big" room, there was a new addition. That room now had Vandersteen's new (at the time) Sub Nine model sub-woofers. I asked Richard what purpose those subs served, when the main speakers (model Seven) can effortlessly reproduce the lowest bass notes. His answer is how I came to learn about less shaking in the main cabinets, and less strain on the main amps. Paul McGowan never brings up those benefits in his videos. Every time McGowan omits those key items from his videos where he discusses the benefits of subs, I mention those benefits that he omits. McGowan knows about those benefits. So why does McGowan never mention those benefits? My hypothesis is that his company (PS Audio) does not make a high-pass filter. Also, McGowan has said that his Aspen FR30 speakers can never be improved. I am confident that if McGowan comes out with subs, and a high-pass filter, he will remember to mention the additional benefits that he has thus far omitted. By the way, you are recommending adding subs and running your main speakers at full range. That is fine. Each of us has our own preferences. Your way will give you more than natural bass. That can be a great experience. But I prefer to have the bass be as accurate as possible -- no double bass -- no extra bass. Or perhaps you keep your subs on, but at a low gain setting?

[@videoproboston2450]

This video reminds me when I first started buying hi-fi equipment as a teenager I became someone who truly believed if you bought speakers that needed a subwoofer to make your system sound right, you bought the wrong speakers. That changed over the years, but until recently after buying Maggies I had to buy sub to get the sound that I wanted. Pairing them with a Rythmik has been an eye opener…er…ear opener. My opinion has changed. 🙂

[@TheJoyofVinylRecords]

I still may buy a sub at some point, My issue is the listening room may not have room for the models I've looked at. There's a sub coming out soon from Buchardt that has the perfect form factor and size for that room. I may check that out.

[@videoproboston2450]

@@TheJoyofVinylRecords Hopefully a future video. The one thing I got out of the Magnepans by adding a sub is enjoying low level listening again.

[@sidesup8286]

Good review; but you mentioned a few things that are audiophile belefs that are simply not so. There is nothibg wrong or less good about using ported speakers in a smaller room. I've done that many times with spectacular results. If the speaker has a port on the back, you need the speaker to be out from the wall behind them at least a few feet.But that's it! I'd never consider putting my speakers within 6 feet of a wall behind or off to their sides, because of colorations, early reflections and limiting their spatial capabilities. The most open sounding 5 figure moving coil cartridges and preamp combinations, used together, with the speakers only 2 and 1/2 feet from walls, will not even sound as open sounding as something like one of the better vintage receivers from the 1970s, where the speakers are 6 feet from any wall. Most audiophiles don't do a very good job of maximizing the performance that their equipment is capable of, and when Mr. Just Spent 50k On An Audio System, visits someone who only has a 1970s/1980s system, but properly set up; they are in shock that their 50k system doesn't sound nearly as good, for over 10 times more money. Which means, if you're walking, don't ever follow a group of audiopbiles across the street, without actually looking at the street light yourself, to make sure it's safe. One audiophile blindly follows another and it can get very unsafe. Not only tor your sound, but your wallet. Another wives tale that audiophiles are brainwashed by is that tone controls are bad. No....Every single record has it's own unique frequency response, how can tone controls be bad? They can give you just the perfect balance on any record, cd or tape you play. It seems to me that it is a masochistic act to sit through recordings that are either too dull or too bright; not that audiophiles aren't masochistic. When equalizing recordings in the studio for release, the judgement over tonal balances is based on what the music sounds like on THEIR speakers, amps, cables and source; not YOURS. And since each recording studio has different gear; each recording has it's own unique frequency response. Without tone controls, you can't do anything about it. WITH tone controls you can easily do EVERYTHING about it. When many audiophiles see a preamp or integrated amp with tone controls, they automatically consider it as "not a serious piece of equipment." Audiophiles are easier to program than the simplest remote control. Not only do recordings all have different frequency respones but so do all listening rooms. The famous late designer of G.A.S. gear, James Bongiorno said in print, "I have never met a room with a flat frequency response." His preamps had tone controls. Eliminating tone controls and even balance controls, has become fashion. Audiophiles have been told that tone controls degrade the signal. Most of them believe what they are told without questioning it. If you have an integrated amp with tone controls and a tone defeat button, you can easily press and depress hundreds of times in a row, to see what (if any) lessening of sound quality a tone control circuit makess. None or next to none is usually the result.At least with a competently designed tone control circuit. Tone controls give infinitely more listening enjoyment and benefit than anything they take away. What a difference in presence just a slight lift of the treble makes. Or hearing what sounds like muddy bass, with the slightest turn of the bass control, become what sounds like perfect bass definition. The population of senior citizens is going to explode in the next 10 years. Almost all of them will have sone hearing loss (the highs go first) or hearing imbalance between their left and right ear. Also there are people whose listening rooms have thick absorptive drapes on one side of the room often, while the other side of their room has livelier acoustics. Believe me, you are better off WITH tone controls. Will the high end hi fi industry start making preamps & amps with tone controls again to accommodate the aging population explision, which even right now, appear to be their main customers, especially in high end audio. Or will the myth cintinue? Seems like more than "ultra greedy money grabbing" is not the only irrational thing going in. Scary also, how little "SENSE" most people have. Soon many of them may be down to "CENTS."

[@sidesup8286]

Another ridiculous notion is that no tone cntrols or if you have them, pressing tone control defeat will let you hear exactly how the recording was meant to be heard. Think for a moment how foolish that is. That would only be so if: 1. All recording studios had the exact same microphones, and the same acoustics. .2. All recording studios had the exact same recording machines. 3. All recording studios had the exact same preamps, amps, cables & speakers to make equalization decisions. 4. All recording studios had the exact same personnel with the exact same judgement. 5. The judgement and memory of the exact same personnel in each different recording studio as to what they heard live, and getting that exact sound down in their equalization was perfect. So Sowith all these limitless variables, playing recordings without using your tone control equalization is not letting you more accurately hear what was intended in the original recording session. At all....

[@michaelb9664]

Once a subwoofer is correctly dialled in there is no going back. When tuning by ear it may take weeks of normal listening and subtle tweaks until it’s right, but when you get there it really does add a sense of space and depth without overpowering or drawing any attention to itself. I’m sure these speakers work very well in some rooms, but sometimes a sub or even two subs is the only way, with much more tune ability.

[@crazyprayingmantis5596]

Every system needs Subs. I don't care how good people think their speakers low end is.

[@michaelb9664]

@@crazyprayingmantis5596 I tend to agree. 👍

[@DJStanSteel]

I don’t like great big speakers like that… never have… but you get what you like. I’ve recently bought a bass bin which is self powered and has a controller added… other speakers are added to the back… it’s bloody heavy and is certified by THX… the sound is class… deep and heavy. For the soul, funk, disco I listen to its perfect and with the mission 700’s sounds so rich and fills the room with depth and clarity more than the Bose I used before. So I like subs.

[@damianzaninovich4900]

Those seem like great no bs speakers. Your music sounds like mine over my lifetime. Steve Miller Fly Like an Eagle would have been the icing on the cake. I recently picked up the cd. I hadn’t heard it since the late 70’s I think in its entirety. Juvenile lyrics but what a perfect album, haha! Still remember every lyric. Also the cd of Elton John Goodbye Yellow Brick Road. A lot better than the original lp of my brother. I still know every word on that one too. Why can’t I remember like that anymore?

[@TheJoyofVinylRecords]

It’s so true. I remember lyrics from songs I haven’t heard it decades but can’t remember what I ate for dinner last night 🤣

[@crazyprayingmantis5596]

Steve millers early music needs to be heard, a totally different sound. Children of the future album, forget that later trash.

[@dobieprime]

Really enjoy your channel and respect your reviews. I have to ask you though...tone controls. I am a few years older than you, I'm sure. Not ancient...but older...:). All through my youth and into today, every receiver/amp I have ever owned has had tone controls and I have used them. My Rotel Tribute that I have now, has tone controls and I use one of the ones that actually were programmed into the amp. When I bought it, all the reviewers said, "Well, I don't listen with tone controls and the Rotel sounds amazing." I tried. To me, it sounds empty and mushy without tone controls. But, that's my ears. I have always turned the treble up a bit and the bass up a bit, or had a receiver with an EQ built in or something. I know this is long...i'll get to it. Recently, I am looking at new speakers and maybe a new amp because...I am into cassettes also and my Rotel does not have a record out. I have looked at the Rega amps..Brio for one. But, what turned me off...NO TONE CONTROLS AT ALL on it. I am using Elac Debut 2, which I will keep and move to another room when I get my new speakers..BUT ALL OF THIS TO ASK....LOL....is it speakers, is it amp, is it just my ears after all these years that makes me have to use tone controls? Is there really anything wrong with that?

[@TheJoyofVinylRecords]

Hi! There is definitely nothing wrong with tone controls. I prefer to have them available if needed although I try not to use them. If I had my way every amp would have tone controls. As far as why the need - I think it's a mix of things. With me, my hearing has definitely become extremely sensitive to high end for some reason. My speakers have attenuation knobs which help. Sometimes its the recording. Some are simply brighter than others depending on when they were mastered, where and by whom. When it's really bad I reach for the tone controls.

[@jmfloyd23]

I use a pair of Klipsch subwoofers with my home system. I have them tuned to where they’re not overpowering the main speakers.

[@TheJoyofVinylRecords]

Which Klipsch if you dont mind me asking?

[@jmfloyd23]

@@TheJoyofVinylRecords I’m using the rpm 100’s I bought them along with the Klipsch rp 820’s . Funny thing is my vintage Cerwin Vega AT-15’s out perform the Klipsch 820’s

[@BradyJohnson1]

Nice video! I would be interested in knowing the actual dimensions of your 2 listening rooms. Saying they are "large" and "small" is very relative 😅

[@TheJoyofVinylRecords]

The listening room is about 11x13. The review room is the entire footprint of the finished attic (never measured it but should at some point).

[@BradyJohnson1]

@@TheJoyofVinylRecords cool, that's about the same size as my office where I have my turntable. I would have thought that room would be too small for those klh speakers. I have some b&w 706 S2 bookshelves in my office but the bass is lacking sometimes. I might have to try some bigger speakers in there... 😅

[@whome8192]

Sealed speakers go deeper than vented. Vented are louder bass , but not as deep. It is unfortunate that there are so few sealed speakers these days. Have really been interested in the css speakers.

[@mkfmkf55]

Do these replace the KLH's? Maybe I missed if you mentioned it.

[@TheJoyofVinylRecords]

No. These were loaners. Enjoyed spending time with them though!

[@neilfisher7999]

I have a subwoofer that I use with my Zu DW speakers. I have the gain turned down, and I have it set at about 100 hz. For most music I listen to, I could turn the sub off. But there are certain types of music where the sub definitely helps to fill a void. Since I have the gain set low, you really don't hear the subwoofer itself. The sound seems to just come from the Zu's. I'm like you, I really don't get deep in the measurements. If it sounds good to me, I really don't care what the measurements on paper say. I can't listen to measurements, but I can listen to music.

[@TheJoyofVinylRecords]

I love that quote, Neil - " I can't listen to measurements, but I can listen to music"

[@neilfisher7999]

​@@TheJoyofVinylRecords You have my permission to use it. Just refer to it as a Neilism.😂

[@TheJoyofVinylRecords]

@@neilfisher7999 will do!

[@chrislj2890]

I sometimes think that a subwoofer is more trouble than it's worth. I was using a Klipsch 12" powered sub with my little Wharfedale Diamond 2.0 speakers which could be problematic at times as I would have to turn it up or down with certain music. Once I got my Zu Audio DW6 speakers I had no problem with bass or anything else and sidelined the sub. For me too little bass is better than too much. I find it strange that you say high frequencies bother you more as you get older, but most guys like myself lose the ability to hear the higher stuff, and I'm at about 14K now. As for those speakers I'm only finding them in kit form on their website.

[@TheJoyofVinylRecords]

I’ve heard great things about Zu. I almost bought a pair a couple years ago. Yes - loud sounds (like pans clanking) is painful. Never used to be.

[@crazyprayingmantis5596]

Try buying a decent sub, Klipsch aren't really known for making quality subs, and maybe get a pair.

[@chrislj2890]

@@crazyprayingmantis5596 Nope, don't need it or want it.

[@erichschader1079]

I have two systems. I listen to reggae 99% of the time. Subwoofers mandatory for both systems.

[@patrickroberts8702]

Oh dear no!! These would never gain approval from the home decor police. I have a pair of AE500 on their own stands. I am thinking of the new Rega floor standing speakers but haven’t seen or auditioned them yet.

[@TheJoyofVinylRecords]

😂😂. Everything that enters this house also has to be run by the home decor police (aka Mandie!).

[@rofgabor]

CSS-Audio speakers are very smartly designed and priced for the mid-fi crowd at probably hi-fi quality. I trust you that they sound amazing. The Achilles heel is the looks, you get what you pay for. They look OK, but not a stunning piece of furniture (to my taste)

[@TheJoyofVinylRecords]

I was impressed by how they handled the bass and mids.

[@rofgabor]

@@TheJoyofVinylRecords I don't have enough experience to know why, but from my collection of speakers: nothing can improve the sound (soundstage, detail, clarity)more than additional drivers to the traditional mid+tweeter setup.

[@steveh545]

Anyone with smaller speakers considering a sub, just do it. If it doesn’t help, then resell. Or return.

[@chinmeysway]

i mean, a speaker’s sound signature is a tone control. so is your room. how ya gonna bypass those two things?! i love trying out different speakers and messing w my graphic eq. whatever pretension boomers do not like, do those things. if you’re one of them, ok it’s not to late to recover from audio ocd! don’t get ripped off by them either ps.

[@TheJoyofVinylRecords]

Nothing wrong with equalizers or tone controls - nobody should dictate how someone enjoys their music. 🍺

[@marcmarcello981]

Prices.

[@Blueb5ers]

No Treble!!

[@TheJoyofVinylRecords]

🍺🍺🍺

[@bertroost1675]

A subwoofer is problematic if one prefers only tube amplification. Someone should make a tube driven subwoofer, that would be interesting.

[@TheJoyofVinylRecords]

Now that’s a cool idea 🍺

[@bertroost1675]

@@TheJoyofVinylRecords But not based on the 300B!

[@TheJoyofVinylRecords]

@@bertroost1675 😂😂