Are Track Focussed Specials Now Pointless? [S3, E25]

[@shivaloptimus]

Hello Tony.... great to see you back ..

[@ABoringTool]

Tony should sell his gemera and buy TVR. Not A TVR, TVR the company

[@jamesmarsh4156]

Tony is back! No point in doing one of these unless he’s on it

[@0303940]

I never click on a video faster than when I see a behind the glass episode! Team Tony! Keep up the cracking content guys 👍

[@zaz4130]

39:50 it’s called an Lotus Exige 430 Cup isn’t it?

[@MiNameIsJake]

Is it just me, or does the black series look a bit like a Dodge Viper ACR?

[@cobaharayestephane1190]

I can see the resemblance too

[@timonxDlol]

Well both have a lot of aero but other than that no

[@torytronrud2413]

I can play fake engine noise in my Tesla, but what's the point? Fake is fake. You will always know it's not real.

[@F1ll1nTh3Blanks]

I mean they're at a point of diminishing returns next to GT versions because the track specials always get cycled and refreshed into the new GT/standard model and more often than not they're nearly just as quick but more practical.. Like models are just coming out so quickly nothing gets to sit steadily on top or be special anymore, also there are soo many models built that it's kinda, yeh, is it really that special or just a way to milk more money out of me, when you can just skip this step and build the GT refresh with all the updates because now that will make the track special devalue even more, I mean it's bad enough that there are usually well over a thousand of these models as it is.. it's just idk.. It's getting long in the tooth now, harder to justify its just not the same anymore. Is it just me? It can't be. Like these things are significantly more expensive and the days of appreciation are over because of all the aforementioned right?.. Personally I think it's time to quit the value centered focus, from a consumer aspect and buy something because it's special to you but from the manufacturer aspect.. I just feel like they could slow down a bit more and take a bit more pride in their work than all this marketing you know..

[@Talynen]

Yup, I'm done with performance figures. Go to the Porsche factory, take some shells off the line. Forget to install the sound deadening, leave off the satnav, detune the engine, put skinny tires on, and sell it to me for $10,000 under the current base price, similar to the old 911T. It'll still be way more fun 99% of the time.

[@HawkMillFarm]

Proper shirt Tony 👌 nice to see some style. Twiggy dragging her bed off set cracked me up 🤣, not a comment on your content I’m sure😉.

[@gentnextdoor]

Why have suddenly become so negative on cars Sam? You’re too young to catch Chris Harris virus.

[@ABoringTool]

We grew up watching british top gear where they were reviewing BMW M5s with v10 engines, Black series with muscle car roaring V8s, Hypercars with NA v12s, Lexus with the LFA with that screaming V10, Porsche with the lemans/F1 derived carrera GT, and doing road trips in the new Nissan GTR and Bugatti Veyron. German luxury cars are now being sold with turbo 4 cylinders. The new black series sounds like a roomba. Hypercars are all electric. Porsche is making 911s that weigh more than an S-class from 2005. Lexus hasn't released a supercar again. Bugatti hasn't changed their platform or engine in 15 years. Nissan hasn't produced anything to rival the GTR. I don't know about you, but things are going downhill in my opinion. I feel like in terms of emotion we peaked in 2010.

[@sampayne9663]

Modern regs and car trends are ruining cars

[@magnustan841]

The world has to respond to climate change. As much as we love the era from 10-20 years ago, we have to understand and accept that we cannot have that anymore. Back then, manufacturers could put whatever engine and gearbox combo they wanted, such that it met their needs, plus turbo / hybrid technology had not matured enough such that it could be used in performance cars. We are only 10 years away from the point of no return in terms of climate change, so everyone has to go down the road of turbos, small engines, hybrid / electric drivetrains, which gives the same performance was an old NA V8. V10 and V12, but are much cleaner. So I believe performance cars aren’t “ruined”, they are just changing. As for the particulate filters, you can complain all you want, they are here to stay, move on. So, take a deep breath, celebrate and recognise the past, look forward to the future.

[@ABoringTool]

@@magnustan841 I agree completely. I think that the solution is to rapidly produce electric cars, then limit the mileage people can have on ICEs so that they become an enthusiast-only option. Alternatively we could start investing in simulating ICEs better. I would drive a Tesla if it felt like a v8 (noise, transmission, etc...) Manufacturers need to learn that what makes a good car is not pure performance but some emotion. Make a car slower but more dynamic maybe by faking a gear shift

[@nialahmad]

@@ABoringTool PREACH. Best comment!

[@AhmedNaas]

"Wouldn't it be a dream if all cars returned to 1100kg..." Yet you destroyed the T50 even though he is the ONLY car builder pushing for hypercar (and eventually super cars) lighteight-ness! Even Tony says that the newer car is ALWAYS better (Yet we all know the newer car is always heavier and faster) and we now have reached a point of too heavy, too fast. But I do appreciate that you are raising this as an issue, that cars are getting too fast to be used fully. I do believe KZbinrs have a responsibility to make manufacturers accountable, as you are probably 75% of their media now (With magazine disappearing). I stopped following JWW (Who used to be my favourite) as all he does now is paid videos and "Look what I bought" videos. Whereas before you were the rebels having real life fun with these cars...

[@Talynen]

With supercars, yeah. Not limited to that, either. Both the Alpine and Miata prove that the German sports cars are all GT cars now and way heavier than they need to be. Why the fuck does a Cayman need to go like 170? It's stupid! You can watch the same thing happening to hot hatches too. They all have awd and 300+ horsepower now.

[@minilite7184]

Who thinks old cars are going to start going up in value? - light weight, manual gears, better non-electric power steering, no traction control . I reckon my MX5 is going to be a classic - similar Lotus Elise . You just can't get those raw cars any more

[@TymaDem]

@@Talynen what’s with super lightweight obsession?

[@Talynen]

​@@TymaDem Lighter cars are more fun to drive on an interesting road. They're especially enjoyable at "regular" speeds when compared to big, heavy, powerful cars. I can try to explain stuff about how it affects the car's behavior, but it all takes up paragraphs and doesn't adequately convey the experience. I'll just quote Clarkson: "It makes EVERYTHING better." edit: also, kzbin.info/www/bejne/e5eneYiCj7-dprM

[@TymaDem]

@@Talynen I see, makes sense

[@tomw8418]

The 991.2 is a better looking car than the 992. Newer is not always better.

[@chrislondon9416]

the 997 is better looking than both in my opinion too!

[@chrishensby6250]

Once again a great video love the banta its natural between you and Tony and your channel is one of the beat

[@lukecomerford1684]

Best pod cast out there! Love the double act. You and Tony are epic!!

[@teslaaddict]

Love seeing Twiggy zooming in the background hahaha

[@joshlovatt2151]

M3/M4 is definitely a grower. Black is the colour to have

[@HannesHeuer]

The real Problem ist the Design its the WEIGHT

[@denisspratt926]

Congrats with the new sponsor. And that's what I´ve said a long time. Buy a good road car and get yourself a real racecar instead. A much better solution. At 32:30 Tony says half a second is half a car length. At 124 mph half a second is about 55 meters, so how long is your car Tony? These Speedsters with no windscreen. You say they copied Ferrari but Aston Martin had the CC100 in 2013 so Ferrari copied Aston then. But Alfa Romeo, Jaguar, Lancia and lots of others made these type of cars in the 50s, 60s, 70s. So there is nothing new about it. Nice video though.

[@hellcat-707]

Also when Sam and Tony says the GT R & GT R PRO are better road cars than the GT Black Series but somehow they doesn't feel the same for a GT3RS or GT2RS. Edit: Even Lamborghini had the Aventador J back in 2012, although it was a one-off.

[@freddie_mvp]

'TVR come back' - that cracked me up!

[@BakersTaste]

2:15 2022 LOL you're probably right, Tony

[@oscartejura4887]

The M3 and M4 look good to me now. Took a while to adjust to it but it looks so much more aggressive

[@magnustan841]

Mmm, they're growing on me slightly, when I see them on the road, I will probably appreciate it even more.

[@hellcat-707]

The spec is probably an important factor for M3 & M4 to look good imo. Black and some of the bright colours, especially that launch spec lime green/yellow would be a good looking option but not that green one that was on the M3 imo.

[@magnustan841]

@@hellcat-707 Really? I thought that dark green looked Super nice! But yeah, the look of the G80 and G82 is really spec dependent. Black out the grille, get it in a bright colour and get some carbon on it...

[@hellcat-707]

@@magnustan841 just my opinion or choice Edit: I feel it's a sporty car and the bright color would go well with its character. Also, I prefer my grand tourers in that green colour.

[@faisalleeds]

Lines on the M4 seem terrible. Think the overall look and profile of the M3 is much better. Same with the current version although the difference is not as great.

[@gen1c8rs88]

The M3/M4 should have had 275/35r19 with 285/35r19, not 275/40r18-285/35r19 and 275/35r19-285/30r20 from visual aesthetic viewpoint and 285/30 has a sidewall hieght that's too short; won't be able to maintian traction around corners that are less than smooth, will have a more sudden release of traction around corners and will heat up more rapidly when going around the track equaling more tyre pressure and hear cycling out faster.

[@Ddiggler23]

While a very good point, nearly all buyers will never be able to tap the performance of their Black Series, Pista, 2RS, or 765LT over the non track variants, you all criticize many of the regular production versions as being soulless, not raw enough, missing the sharpness/sound of the track oriented cars. First and foremost, “most” buyers of these cars do not track them, they buy them because they are the special more limited versions, aggressive styling, bragging rights, and hope that they should depreciate less than the non special variants. With that said, I agree, with your point of if you are such an accomplished track driver who regularly tracks high end cars, why not just buy a pure race car for that purpose. I think the manufactures also use these “halo” type cars as a marketing push to say look how fast we are in a road car and what we can do. That brand recognition and marketing effect has a perception to bring people into the brand on lesser expensive cars so that buyers who cannot afford these track/limited cars can get a piece of the engineering in lesser models or variants. Very good topic/debate. Either you make a car that is so fabulous on track that is nearly a race car, it will likely be horrible on the road OR you make a road car so close to the edge that it will perform well on track. I think the new Black Series is very much so the former.

[@HiddenWen]

I think as long as the manufacturers don't make terrible cars, there will always be a market. Plenty of rich people in the world who will just want one of these without a second thought. This is why the manufacturers will continue to pump out newer versions at a faster pace. Though the examples you gave aren't the tippy top of car brands. That would be brands such as Pagani and Koenissig.

[@tooclaws]

Rofl Twiggy sprinting across the background and dove in to attack the bed. Thanks guys

[@timhodgson5738]

Great car chat. Just thinking out loud, why do manufacturers organise their press days at tracks? Surely the natural habitat for most of these high end track cars are driving round Knightsbridge at 10mph?

[@Edddy1337]

Sam I'm scared the acoustics may be poo in the new unit!!! the audio is perfect right now

[@ABoringTool]

Sam knows what he's doing. Im 100% sure he'll use sound foam to remove echo in there

[@damngoodenzo]

I think the problem with the AR sat nav is that it's shown on the screen on the central console. If it was somehow implemented in the windscreen projection, that would work perfectly

[@andyhopton]

As the engine supplier supplying the least teams ie 0ne, I think Renault have to supply Redbull if no other deal can be done

[@uberseehandel]

Having spent 10 years in Munich, I'd observe that Red Bull and BMW M Division are a marriage made in heaven. In the best and worst meanings of the phrase, "they deserve each other". I recall talking to BMW guys about their experience with tiny F1 turbo charged engines and what they could do in qualification. They would fit right in to F1 in 2021/2022.

[@woodhead0823]

We all just guna ingore those cars in the background??👀

[@jamespugh]

Yea seen the Aston-Martin and their a ranult hatch sitting their

[@kylemas8226]

Another great episode!!

[@Habdabi]

Benjamin Benjamin hahaha. Get Paul on again with Tony and yourself!

[@jamespugh]

Number 13 . Great way start off with 2 nice car in backgrounds in the garage/ studio

[@Gulliath]

Honda F1 have said they would give the intellectual property for the development of the latest spec engines including the 2021 spec engine over to Red Bull given how strong they're relationship has developed, if a new manufacturer could be found to build and further develop the engine supplied by Honda it would save both parties a ton of investment and time as its already been done and paid for by Honda and then also brings a new name to the sport. That being said i doubt the likes of BMW, VW/Audi, Toyota etc... would want to use a re-branded engine but its a better option that a new entrant starting from scratch, I mean it is a race winning engine after all. love the podcasts keep'em coming lads

[@philiphughes7964]

Tony is correct. Porsche really put all the pieces together with the 911 in 2008 / 2009. As Tony said the whole package works since then

[@HG504X]

Definitely getting abit too crowded in that "track focused" market, seems to be one every month now. The best one will always earlier gen ones like the 430 Scuderia.

[@AhmedNaas]

I saw an 812 GTS in Guildford last week!!! My perfect 1 car garage :)

[@minilite7184]

Tony, you find yourself hilarious ! TVR's were awesome - they may have melted, but in their day a Tuscan was 70% of a Ferrari for about 30% of the dosh!

[@8w494]

Unless I don't understood, You guys complained 720s was too easy to drive and didn't have a soul -- needed to be more of a driver's car. Now the 765LT is more of driver's car, and you say that it is a bit pointless because 720s is already so good..

[@Ddiggler23]

Well put, excellent comment. Which is it? They counter their same argument.

[@AdsTrapatony]

Love to see you guys back at it again. Sam I think you're wrong, the FF wont be a big classic. I like them a lot but being a 4 seater awd car I bet the F12 will be worth at least 2 times more than a FF. About the Porsches you forgot to tell about the lovely centerlocks on the GTS's. Either way I would prefer a 996 or 997 Turbo (manual cars or a 997.2 pdk) to a GTS. You can also buy a 991 GTS for the same price. Or a 997 GT3. The GTS is a lovely car but It's overpriced. There is a lovely blue 997.2 GT3 for sale here in Germany (100 kkms) for 75.000€. The same as a GTS. And a new gen R8 with that V10... And that's the one I would get.

[@buffbobcat5926]

“It’s a 991.2 911 PDK Turbo GTS .....” WHAT???? Please stop the madness Porsche !?!?!?

[@miklas.k]

Its only Named as a 911 gts from Porsche. The Generation is 991.2 and he Said Turbo behause the 991.1 gts was n/a, and he Said PDk because you can get a manual gts aswell

[@danielheathcote5625]

Archie Hamilton must be biggest patron the rate he buys and sells cars through tony!

[@nicktsam9555]

I think the monza is the best of those roofless cars, but to be fair, Lamborghini did it first with the aventador j (jota)...

[@sherabtenzinglama7814]

Merc were at it first with the SLR Sterling moss.

[@nicktsam9555]

@@sherabtenzinglama7814 yes you’re wright, but Mercedes wasn’t in the discussion...

[@diegoaponte8512]

Yeah they did it right, other companies we just trying to get on that bandwagon.

[@josephbennett151]

Keep up the amazing work welcome back Tony

[@asharabahmed5299]

I saw that a new episode was up I looked at KZbin but it wasn't up yet so I had to turn on a VPN to listen on Spotify since Spotify isn't available in Pakistan. I really love this podcast. Interesting that Tony wants a gt bs after what happened to his gtr AND now thinks people should get a McLaren. It truly is a weird year.

[@GenaF]

Please upload the video of the dashboard, Sam

[@nathandrake6531]

thank f*** hes back

[@Stefan-pq1ip]

32:30 1/2 a second at 124mph is 27meters actually :p

[@kylemccallum1404]

Twiggy is the MVP of this episode

[@danbnz]

Pricing has just been announced here in Australia for the AMG GT Black Series and its an eye watering $800,000 (£439,000). Thanks to LCT (Luxury Car Tax) in this country, cars that are already very expensive in the UK, sky rocket in price down under

[@nathanrunciman88]

$797k before on roads too.

[@zeaugustosilva9161]

I think the if the manufacturers are doing thar windshieldess car, it would be amazing to see a rece category with this types of cars. Imagine a monza SP1 rancing an elva and a aston speedster

[@Leeviiii758]

Ofcourse Tony is gonna get it. It's always been an investment to him.

[@alexlenas7954]

Tony is a legend

[@MrBabadude]

I'm with Toney I like the front end of the BMW M3/M4

[@jake4030]

I think the biggest fault of the new Black Series is that is has zero charm, all prior BS cars had a certain charm to them, this new has none of that!

[@diegoaponte8512]

Ok but flat plane crank? With a straight through exhaust it would sound the way it should and bring a little life into it. But out of the box, it’s a bit plane.

[@SWatchik]

Hadn't seen the M3 yet. My jaw actually dropped, I cannot believe people are justifying it. That thing is beyond hideous

[@scamdemicusmaximus5109]

Some "genius" at BMW decided to ruin one of the most iconic front ends in automotive history. I'm no BMW fan, but I always found the kidney grill very appealing. Not so any more!

[@MarcSob22]

The SF90 is the best supercar on the market now!!

[@skynetsworld]

but it looks uh

[@innerhammer]

I think if it had an NA V8 people would have got more excited.

[@hellcat-707]

@@innerhammer More than the NA V8, I felt that it was a perfect opportunity for Ferrari to put the NA V12 (no hybrid) and revive the rear-mid engine 12 cylinder line-up, a perfect competitor to the Aventador.

[@benclinch6056]

What BMW don’t tell you is that they have had to buy several x3 comps back including my wife’s. They have had several problems with the engine and with my friend and my wife’s car they couldn’t fix. Another car I know of, timing chain went! Anyone looking at the new m4/m3 be careful.!

[@MrJH-77]

I dont understand the current super car top trumps game. I too would love to see a major manufacturer bring out a light weight, rwd, 500hp car with a manual box and no launch control or other stupid electronic nic nacs, active aero, traction control or other. A pure drivers car that demands respect if you want to drive it.

[@captainrex9016]

11:43 Twiggy lmao

[@carseyeadmire]

450 hp and 1100kg? I think you might have forgotten about a company called Lotus. They make them in your own backyard.

[@alekspen]

I believe that the new M3/M4 design is great, it makes all the competitors cars look so outdated now. BMW are in the next generation of design language, while the others are a model cycle behind, purely based on the design

[@carseyeadmire]

I'm sure a few 720 owners have thought to themselves that they would like a little bit more reliability.

[@fahadkhalid6944]

4 series looked bad but M4 grill really looks good

[@mikemitch1041]

Great episode thanks

[@colinwatt00]

I’ve been saying this for years!!! 399hp lightweight Ferrari that is built on the same less-is-more ethos as the 4C. Perhaps sold as a Dino?

[@Khobraa]

I’m with Tony, I like the new BMW’s and people will warm to it!

[@psychologyhealingonline3939]

Cars is typical complexcostumes is it hard to understand)?

[@timbonfield6214]

Havent fully watched this yet but my main issue with these track specials is they are seemingly still a road car so will always be compromised on track compared to a much cheaper track car, for instance 488 pista could be way more track focused but it would ruin it on road which is where it will spend 98% of the time so it kind of begs the question what is the point

[@tommy4862]

The point is, these cars are usually still more exciting on the road. I agree if you are all about track driving and lap times you can buy a track special with better performance for less money.

[@timbonfield6214]

Would a pista be that much more exciting than a 488 with an exhaust tune???? I know it's all relative and things like the gt3/rs have the N/A selling point, gt2rs mega power and rwd, porche do it so well because of possibilities in the 911 platform from mega fast gt (turbo s) to entry sports car in the 911t to full on race cars. Ferrari done it well with the tdf I guess still not a track car though

[@tommy4862]

@@timbonfield6214 I agree with the gt3 vs gt2, that NA engine is more fun in my opinion, but yes I believe Pista is more exciting than standard 488. Judging from reviews of owners and journalists etc. Look at Salomondrin, he hated 488 so much and now he bought the Pista and he thinks it's the best thing in the world. It's in the details, how it makes you feel, less sound isolation, the engine brings vibrationt to the whole car, different calibration to the gearbox and many other small things which together make a big difference.

[@timbonfield6214]

@@tommy4862 not having been lucky enough to have even sat in one let alone driven either I guess I have to go by what the people who have say, I would be more inclined to listen to the words of an old hack like Catchpole or Harris though as they are not seeing the cars as ownership propositions just purely as a bit of metal, look back to when the whole track day ferrari and porche thing realy started (in modern terms any way) 996 gt3 vs 360cs very simple recipe with both cars I think alot of that simplicity has been lost and the cars have became to serious with people more concerned with the colour and bolt on useless carbon than the actual driving experience.

[@timbonfield6214]

If theres zero compromise on the road to be a bit quicker on track then to me it may as well be a facelift version of the stock car?

[@racketsportsasia1437]

There is an Aston Martin badge on the RedBull F1 car. Could Aston potentially be an engine supplier to RedBull?

[@streetcat666]

They can’t even supply engines to their road cars 🤷🏼‍♂️

[@graygamingps4503]

They won't supply them, they make V12s not V6s

[@benwilliams8437]

Daily Driven Exotics has the roofless, windscreenless Lambo....

[@dynamicdubai]

Hi Sam/Tony The comment on f1 being all about the manufacturers I really disagree. I think teams like Jordan, tyrell, McLaren, minardi, etc all bring spirit to the sport. Obviously the mentioned teams had mixed success but I think f1 is private teams who have engine deals and associations rather than outright owned. Also don’t forget the f1 teams like Mercedes can link back to tyrell. Racing point and Jordan. Just my opinion 👍

[@kyleabrahams2696]

Wait wait wait after you first featured Tony some years ago he sourced me a 996 turbo and told me it was an amazing car 🤣 why is he going back on his sales Pitch lol

[@ricardodimurro127]

I agree with Tony. In the right colour and spec the M3 and M4 look good

[@TheXcelPing]

Top pod again

[@Raaiz.rizwan]

Amazing video brother ☺️👍🏻

[@TimmehysCat]

"Half a second is half a car-length" at 124mph is massively inaccurate even for Tony

[@justinblackall9516]

Yoy forgot to mention that alonso is coming back???

[@philiphughes7964]

What would be great is if Ferrari released a car with gated shifter manual with great handling. It would be nice to have a true drivers car instead of hype cars.

[@roydevans]

New M3 is wicked, other than 90k for a decent spec, that’s madness right?

[@nahidrahman]

3:08 “the days of our lives” ?

[@maveric585]

You guys should get Archie on the show

[@4changede]

one of the best episodes, thank you so much, and tony need to lead automotive courses on university, sam just best vid marketing expert, go on, please do more and never stop .....saving my boring life ;-)

[@chrish1734]

F1 engine replacement. For me, is Cosworth. Cosworth to build the engine, bmw to help out with the hybrid side of things.

[@skynetsworld]

I prefer the Setup from the previous episodes, but 👍 anyway

[@skynetsworld]

the fake noise in BMW cabins is horrible

[@olivertravers7908]

Holy tony.

[@alexoliver2608]

I think they are getting very pointless. Why would you spend £350k on a track road car, that’s flawed in both instead of a AMG GT4, Or any GT4 race car? They’re a 3rd of the money and you can buy a tow car and trailer with the rest and still have some change for tyres etc. No brainer.

[@reagan3037]

@27:10 The GT3 RS was supposed to compete with the 360 CS kzbin.info/www/bejne/gHi1iXx6m56sisk

[@TBATTIECYCLING]

Sam going on about a. Lightweight 4t0 he car but doesn’t own a lotus?

[@GN1995_3]

i feel like season 3 was tony's season, but season 4 will be twiggy's. no doubts

[@neilpatching7443]

He has been drinking mate don't take any of his explanations. That is the worst looking BMW of all

[@alexclub18]

Yeah 981s !!

[@marvusparvus]

Let's Go TVR !!! 420SEAC for the win ! #dreamcars

[@Dieene1234]

STG needs an Lotus Exige 410/430 Cup. Stop the silly HP game.

[@christaylor4946]

We had a Craig Craig at school

[@dam00r]

Porsche/Audi engine for Red Bull

[@diegoaponte8512]

I’m sorry I just can’t get over that grill on the new bmws. It’s aweful and I can’t believe everyone at bmw said “yeah, let’s sell it looking like that!”

[@johnpardo4695]

Minardi were the last Lambo team

[@ThisIsMTH]

The M3 and M4s looks great Sam. You’ll come round to them, guaranteed.

[@OlaCurtius]

Think Tony is wrong, FF is the Ferrari clown shoe. And I think Gordon Murray is maybe setting a new standard for the industry with going back to light manual cars. Off course we love these super cars with a gasilion horsepower’s but we buy the car that are fun.