Are Vintage Speakers Actually Better?

[@copperaudio9664]

When the new 12L is the age of the vintage it will sound much like the old due to the suspension 'relaxing' from being used. Nice demo!

[@ZillaCabs]

Great video. One of the troubles with vintage speakers (ignoring how risky it can be buying them) is that how it has been treated through its life will have a massive impact on its tone. Often you'll hear as big a difference between two vintage speakers of the same year (same model etc) as you will between one vintage speaker and a new one. Exposure to moisture is a big thing (more common on 4x12s) and even if it has been in 1x12/4x12 or open or closed back. Again great video, good to see fellow speaker lovers.

[@gr500music6]

The three threaded holes visible on the rear of the older speaker are where the big black heat sink (eight fins and a burgundy and silver label saying "Series II") attached with three bolts. OEM speakers shipped by EV for open back situations, where air-flow was not an issue, often didn't have the heat sink - because it added a lot of weight, took up space and arguably wasn't necessary open back. In tight ported enclosures (EV's TL-806 design for example), the heat sink made sense. I bought two Series II 12L' speakers around 1979-80 (yes, I know EV has a blurb somewhere saying they started making the 12L in 1983, but they're wrong about that; I was selling them by the late 70's). The 1.3 cubic foot volume of the TL-806, per plans from the period, appear to be based on the cabinet air displacement including the heat sink.

[@ramon4545]

I have a vintage Mesa Black Shadow labeled EVM 12L in my 1983 Fender Rivera era Concert the same one you guys made a video on and the tone is magic pure magic.

[@gstmusic69]

I think my biggest question about these, is this... WHY cant they just make the reissues the same as the originals?? Why change it?

[@middle_pickup]

Speakers don't keep the same tone forever. They're bits of paper that vibrate. They wear out, and their tone changes. A 20 year old speaker that's been played will always sound different.

[@Voodoo66Chile]

I'm sure a big reason is because they are made to a price point, they cut every cost possible that still allows the speaker to function and sound close enough and still maintain the largest profit margin. People continue to buy the modern version so they have no motive to make them like they used to. Also I've owned several old/vintage speakers and they are extremely "broken" in or probably technically worn out. They are so soft and the surround is tender soft which allows the cone to travel so easy. I can gently push on the cone and it will travel in and out with SO MUCH ease compared to a new or even 10 year old speaker side by side... So I imagine it's a combination of both.

[@mattjazz3]

Another good one! I went down the same EV path at the beginning of the year and came to similar conclusions. Good to know I wasn’t too deep in the woods!

[@VertexEffectsInc]

Thanks for sharing!

[@patrickcarroll1754]

Like breaking in a good shoe. Great video! Goof addition having him back in your cast, Mason!

[@GabrielBergman95]

Thanks Patrick! Always a good time with that crew!

[@bpc4341]

Gabriel is awesome! So glad he's working with you guys.

[@mantashaft]

Nicely done, very informative.

[@VertexEffectsInc]

Glad you enjoyed it!

[@IamMusicNerd]

In this test, the old speaker sounded more alive to me than the new one. But as with most things, it depends. My old 1995 Marshall combo had an original Celestion Marshall Goldback, which sounds good, but it got fizzy and muddy when pushed too hard into high distortion. I upgraded to a new Celestion alnico gold, and now I can push it into high distortion without it getting fizzy or muddy. It has a much wider dynamic range and clarity than the old one. However, in a different cab I had a old 1997 Jensen, and it sounded much better than the new Jensen I tried replacing it with. So I went back to the old Jensen. Each speaker is different. You have to test each one with your guitars to see what sounds best for what you are doing.

[@VertexEffectsInc]

Agreed!

[@0megalul309]

Johan segeborn proved this ages ago. For speakers that rely on breakup for character it's a resounding yes

[@VertexEffectsInc]

Ironically EVs are in the thumbnail - sorta the opposite of a breakup character speaker

[@Jesse_Johnson]

EVs are 200 watts. They aren’t relying on breaking up any time soon. Not sure if you knew that orrrrrrr….. yeah. K. Have a good day bye.

[@kodykindhart5644]

We reconed a jbl d 120 and the other is original Once the” new” one got broken in it’s been way better

[@SunshineHB]

I don't know if they are better or not, but speakers/cabs are definitely one of the most impactful factors in tone.

[@VertexEffectsInc]

They are important - we did use the same cabs for both speakers on this so that would at least not be a factor and the same mics.

[@onesandzeros]

Nice demo guys. Very interesting. I wonder how much these vary from sample to sample. I remember reading about Page Hamilton’s rig back in the ‘90s. He was using 4x12 cabs from Harry Kolbe iirc, which had these speakers or possibly the 300w variant.

[@VertexEffectsInc]

If you did this with 10 vintage and 10 reissues there'd be difference speaker to speaker.

[@LizardWizard_]

I own both! Love them both! Great video!

[@chrismahermusic5142]

tempted to try both in a 2x12 d cab. great playing, great tone!

[@VertexEffectsInc]

Go for it!

[@Jakexx01]

You did a fantastic job of comparing these two awesome speakers! But as you so accurately said, it could only have been more accurately done had you the opportunity to do the impossible, by magically jumping back and forth across that pesky un-crossable time barrier. Only then, could you have better compared this 25 year old broken-in vintage EV-12L against a new EV-12L. However, I have to hand it to you, you're definitely 'THE MAN' for having the stones to challenge the time barrier! All the best my friend, Great job! 😊

[@bbrotherton6345]

I have had both. I prefer the slightly crisper mid-range of the new one, I put it in a PRS cabinet, with a Marshall head.

[@Doty6String]

nice playing here!

[@GabrielBergman95]

Thanks Alex!!

[@baronhead]

Hands down vintage. I was lucky to snag one of these for free about 10 years ago when a friend said his room mate was throwing out an old Acoustic brand guitar amp. I grab it out of the trash to find it had an original EVM 12l in it. One of my best scores.

[@549of1k]

why not take the whole amp? I've got three of them and they are the best.amps no one seems to know about

[@denisfer28_48]

The rugged road solo was a nice touch man

[@VertexEffectsInc]

Gabriel rules!

[@jimandcathep9915]

Joe Bonamassa has said the exact reason he uses the EV 12L(re-issue) is because it tames the highs and gets rid of the ice picks - and helps give him the very mid rangey tone of his. Figure you can also EQ either of the speakers to get what you feel is lacking. Thanks for the great video !

[@VertexEffectsInc]

I didn't realize he uses the re-issues.

[@yy_guitar7510]

I remember he uses vintage EV 12L in instagream rig video

[@mattanderson3067]

Good shoot out, thanks for the video. People seem to get a little but hurt in the comments. One should remember, this isn’t a comparison of the same speaker, new vs old, these are different speakers, just look at them. The new one is a “reissue” that they’re trying to voice like the old one. There were several different EVM12l’s and they’re all slightly different. I think y’all did a great job in comparing the two. I would love to see y’all do a comparison with the warehouse WGS12L Thanks again.

[@VertexEffectsInc]

Thanks so much for watching!

[@russellzauner]

This makes me want to cut them apart and test the cones material and check coil/magnetic specs against mfg listed, etc... But outside manufacturing defects that cause early death, a speaker should stabilize over time (physically) and exhibit similar effects if you move it like guitars and other instruments (different humidity, etc) and within some window have a fairly reliable and consistent sound - but since a lot rides on the cones creating the pressure wave imaging if there are variations/defects in the material construction it could vastly change the wave/signal shaping/reproduction of the results. Aging stabilizes and smooths anything out, unless it's fermented then it can go horribly right or wrong with age. 🙂 I specifically looked for my Bogner twin because it comes from the factory with two different speakers in it; I noticed a while ago that a lot of the live sounds I liked turned out on rig rundowns to be that their cabinets were set up with mixed/blended speaker models inside of them, blended until they liked it.

[@RR1976]

takes the cake on example 3? nah man... I love the newer speaker. You are looking for that "open" sound only perhaps, but to me I dig the nuanced newer speaker which I think is more dynamic and brings just a bit more musical grit to the forefront. In any case, thank you for take the time to make this video. Very well done! (adding this edit.... I think overall the new speaker would sit better in a mix both recorded and live.)

[@VertexEffectsInc]

Should make it an easier choice then if you're considering these speakers.

[@timothymartin2137]

YOU just like mids more,,,,face it, some people do, some prefer and call the hi fi sound more articulate (me personally), the actual difference is NOT that the newer one is more musical (Brings more musical grit) as you put it, YOU just like mids more...period...why couch it in such, frankly, douchy terms, do you REALLY think your opinion is so much better that it deserves the terms you couched it in?

[@stevenwpierce]

I heard that the new EVM's need 200 hours to break them in. How many hours was put on them prior to the test.

[@berserkersquad499]

I wish you guys would do some high gain stuff with these speakers.

[@VertexEffectsInc]

I wish I was better at playing with higher gain!

[@thseed7]

Vintage sounded best across the test. I was wondering if it was because it was broken in or if there were dramatic changes in construction of the speaker. Do they still use the same magnets, cone and surround materials? Are they really even the same now? Great video 🤘

[@VertexEffectsInc]

I'm not sure how much is 1:1, but certainly they're capable of making it the same. There's nothing in the originals that wouldn't be possible to remake today.

[@edgewound]

A couple things to mention on the sound difference. The newer 12L Classic has a smaller magnet than the EVM12L/II. This would explain the difference in overall tonal range. Bigger/stronger motor will extend both the low end and high end frequencies while lowering the Qts. It's probably got a lot more hours and a looser suspension. The 12L Classic will have a more pronounced mid range response because of the smaller motor. It also sounds a bit "strained" like it's not fully broken in. It takes about 40 hours of play time to break it in at moderate/low volume levels.

[@leelenton]

Yeah the new one has more character and I'm sure shines at times, it has lost everything the original is known and loved for. Good demo. 😉👍

[@ivonsmith4255]

Yea the vintage was tiny bit nicer. I’ve been deciding on a new speaker for my next custom cab. Evm15L definitely should be it. Where is best place globally to buy these speakers??? New or vintage?

[@nsc217]

I have a vintage and reissue and they both sound very similar but vintage is sweeter (less sterile). Like in this video!

[@jamwayofaiken-augustarockb7643]

The older speaker sounded better overall to me the newer one sounded kind of like a cocked wah I kind of wish that you would have played both of them together I bet that sounds phenomenal

[@VertexEffectsInc]

Thanks for watching!

[@powdermnky007]

I liked them both, they just highlight different attributes. Both together would be perfect I bet.

[@StompboxMods]

You guys need to run some amps through Two Rock speakers! They sound killer in all my American voiced amplifiers. Great video content today though. Thanks!

[@VertexEffectsInc]

Not sure how it applies here, I think their speakers are voiced like a G1265 Celestion, not EV.

[@StompboxMods]

@@VertexEffectsInc to my ear, the Two Rock Speaker sounds different than the G1265. Higher efficiency speaker.

[@EnigmaEuslam]

Nice Robben licks! Rugged Road? Edit to add: As far as the speakers go…I’ll take one of each in a 2x12 and a roadie to carry it.

[@GabrielBergman95]

Yes! Thats one of my favorite Robben lines!

[@EnigmaEuslam]

@@GabrielBergman95 Same here. That whole record is an all time favorite of mine. Learned the RR and Misunderstood solos years ago. Thanks for reminding me that I need to revisit them. Great playing brother!

[@sjb454]

With time and break in , how much will the new speaker open up ?

[@VertexEffectsInc]

Usually around 10-20 hours a speaker will break in enough - this one had about 15 hours on it.

[@vadlasletta]

I liked the two chords on the edge of break up demo. Is it from a song?

[@VertexEffectsInc]

Not sure, Gabe?

[@coolbluetrane]

Same, open string voicings are beautiful. In the video he says that was "nightcrawler-esque" and mentions Larry Carlton.

[@mikeoxlong4588]

honestly love EV's both sound great there arent any weird sizzles or scratches just nice smooth guitar sounds on both. also buying vintage speakers is a MASSIVE RISK

[@jeremiahMc11]

I think I almost bought a 212 Two Rock combo from Gabe like 5 years ago when he lived in NOVA.

[@_brocklee]

The vintage one has a warmer scooped tone. It actually made the hot rod sound pretty good

[@VertexEffectsInc]

Thanks for watching!

[@rockeye]

This is an isolated comparison and remember things will sound different when playing in a live situation with a loud drummer.

[@doctorscoot]

they were so radically different there was little comparison imho. whether you prefer either is just gonna depend on what you want. the new speaker sounds nothing like the old one. i would like to hear three vintage speakers compared to even be sure if the sound is consistent in the vintage models or not

[@coffeedudeguy]

Except for the open chords, I preferred all the examples with the new speaker. Vintage speaker sounds and feels more spongey/chewy to me. New one is overall darker, but I prefer the punchiness and more ‘tubular’ sound.

[@VertexEffectsInc]

Thanks for watching!

[@MostlyTorso]

This speaker comparison is like a bakery thief in that they both take the cake.

[@VertexEffectsInc]

Ha!

[@randyallen4959]

It missed the point by one speaker not being broken in. I love EVs. I have a pair of SRO15Bs

[@noahchasinguitar5831]

I have a vintage and a reissue in a 2x12. If I mic the amp, i’ll mic the vintage because it sounds a little sweeter… But I don’t think there’s like an unbelievable difference. In this video there’s a huge difference

[@wyattlauth1453]

Does everyone at vertex have the same eyebrows?

[@GabrielBergman95]

hahaha

[@JazzRockswithAdam]

Goes to show you everyone has a different idea of what good tone is. In every case I liked the newer EV the best. I heard the top end on the old EV as "annoying fizz."

[@VertexEffectsInc]

Interesting!

[@MrRonnmaui]

Vintage wins! The vintage must of been re-coned in all of those years? Serious magnet. I used Leslie organ 15" in one of my guitar speaker cabinets. Very heavy and very stiff sounding.

[@rickenbacker40011]

That’s always a huge problem with new equipment, they sound so flat and bland. And this is a perfect example. The original speaker had presents a statement, wasn’t muddy, wasn’t hazy, wasn’t bland, flat, or just noise. It was present, very clear, and wasnt carrying every frequency but the one you actually needed. The new speakers are ALL dark, all bland, no grab, very little clarity, and just have way too much low end, low mids, very little mids, and no hi end. Its just noise you dont need. Its like a sandwich thats all thick cut bread, no seasoning, no sauce, veggies and unseasoned protien. But vintage amps have regular human amounds of bread, perfect seasoning, spices, veggies and freshness. Maybe its not e x a c t l y ones ideal flavor profile every time. But its confident clear and fresh

[@Tomekkplk]

Clapton used them too in the 80’s

[@diegoebustamante]

Not sure how true this is but I was told that you can think of speakers as a form of your final eq

[@VertexEffectsInc]

It's not the final, but one of them.

[@ramilrodriguez8340]

First of all, after trying lots of speakers and cabs, I learned that even two cabs of the same brand and model can sound different. I believe that on speakers comparisons all speakers should be tested on the same cab. That said I actually prefer the new one. Sounded clearer and more articulate to me. Kind of brighter with a beautiful midrange. Old one sounded warmer and with a deeper bottom end but the top end was kind of muffled like many people describe as a blanket on front and kind of mid scooped compared to the other. I guess this is a matter of taste. My taste goes for the new this time all the way. Last comparison was the only one both speakers sounded very alike. I don’t hear the new one darker I actually hear it brighter and more defined but I think it’s the high mids.

[@VertexEffectsInc]

Close mic'd we're not hearing much acoustics from the room or the cab. I would agree with you if you're talking mass produced cabinets. These are fairly rare Dumble cabs made by the guy that made many of Dumble's cabinets from the 80's on. They're pretty consistent.

[@ramilrodriguez8340]

@@VertexEffectsInc I love your videos and products and channel content and everything and I know you guys now what you are doing. Here is the way I see this. If you want to post a video that convince anybody about what you mean to say you have to do the best and in this case it’s mandatory to test speakers in the same cab. All the same only different the speakers. Sorry but that’s the way it is no matter how consistent you believe cabs are. No variables. I’ve done it myself. I’ve compared cabs from sane manufacturer, same production batch, same speakers and sound different. The cone of the speaker interact with the air in the cab and outside the cab. The difference in the pressure in the cab because of the cone movement may vary even because of cab’s wood density which may vary from panel to panel and at the end you’ll have a speaker cone moving different distances. That might be not noticeable but might be, and you don’t want people to be wondering how much of the difference was because of the cab. I believe that in a pro speaker comparison, same cab is a most. Otherwise no good no matter how identical you believe cabs are. If you really want to compare just the speakers. Thanks.

[@duaneforrand5253]

I don't think they compare one is a 300w speaker and the other is 200w . The new EVM black label would be a better comparison and would have current relivent information for a consumer

[@nickkellie]

I prefer the darkness of the EV. It’s funny to me that ‘87 is considered vintage. I guess I’ll really vintage as I’m an ‘83

[@FrancisVoignierMusic]

Definitely different speakers to my ears. I much favor the vintage one. Break-in will no doubt alleviate those differences though.

[@VertexEffectsInc]

It had about 10-15 hours on it of break it time. Should be enough to remove any early break in issues of a brand new speaker.

[@WMSFLL]

I guess that 1 year warranty on the original has held up pretty well. In fairness it makes no sense to do a side by side between a brand new speaker that hasn't even been broken in yet with one that has. Do the same demo again after you've played the new one for a year or two, and it'll sound much different.

[@waynegram8907]

Try to look up what Jimmy Page Eddie Van Halen Ace freely Angus Young Eric Clapton I think they used celestion black back speakers from the '70s as well as all their guitars used of 300K pot instead of a 500K pot and they're Les Paul's in their sg's and a lot of people overlook that that they had a 300K pot so that's why a lot of other amplifiers they would turn down all the way to zero the base because the 300K already had too much bass because a lot of the newer SGS and Les Paul's they have 500k but also they were playing with celestion black back speakers which are different than the cream back in the and the greenback was as I believe or they could all be the same thing as renamed but it would be nice clarification but also with the 300K gives you a different frequency response more of the lower muddier darker sound of the Les Paul and SG so you're going to have to fine-tune the EQ section differently because of that

[@VertexEffectsInc]

I think Blackbacks are the same as a Greenback with a black plastic cover - Rick Skillman from Celestion has said this before. They ran out of the color plastic to make them Green or something like that.

[@waynegram8907]

@@VertexEffectsInc I have heard that also but I'm not sure if it's a specific year that evh like because ace freely, Angus Young, evh used 75 to 78 black back speakers so it might be just those years they changed the frequency response or materials used that had that classic rock song. There are guys on KZbin that compare old celestion speakers from the 70s with new modern celestion green back and cream back which sound 100% different

[@BadHorsie2]

The re-issue needs to be broken in a lot more. I think the sound will improve once this is done.

[@VertexEffectsInc]

15 hours isn't a bad break in period.

[@marcelchaloupka]

What's funny is back in the 80's a vintage speaker was a JBL L series or the 70's celestions, EV's were considered garbage. Now, an 80's EV speaker is considered a vintage speaker and apparently somehow got better, or did people's standards drop.

[@VertexEffectsInc]

Don't think it was considered garbage, pretty much every high end amp used them from Dumble amps to Mesa Boogie.

[@marcelchaloupka]

@@VertexEffectsInc Where is Dumble today? and Mesa Boogie, like EV and Peavey, were heavily marketed back in the day, but today they are niche products. let's face it, you buy an amp and pull out the speakers and put Celestions in, funnily enough just like mesa does

[@tiagoramalhais5493]

I prefered the reissue

[@j.juarez9526]

1987 has way too much annoying 8k sizzle. Metal Zone "egg frying" comes to mind. New speaker is balanced and reflects a complete frequency profile.

[@VertexEffectsInc]

Thanks for chiming in!

[@Jesse_Johnson]

Other than the big open chords. The new one hands down.

[@VertexEffectsInc]

Thanks for watching!

[@trecani2878]

I bought the Black Label EV last year, and this speaker is made in Mexico no longer in the USA. I wonder if there is a different between the Mexico made and the USA made. By the way, after 20 hours of use the speaker became a beast.

[@benfowler2127]

I was just wondering that. I know for car audio, there’s a break in period for the speakers. I think that’s probably the biggest difference and something that not many people give any consideration to. Edit: LOL, and he just mentioned that.

[@VertexEffectsInc]

It can be made the same even if it's made in Mexico. If it's different this would be an EV problem, not a Mexico problem.

[@jbalmer9310]

Is the new speaker broken in?

[@VertexEffectsInc]

It had about 10-15 hours on it of break it time. Should be enough to remove any early break in issues of a brand new speaker.

[@tomduckworth8335]

Well this was nice but I have to say a few things. The new one will break in and change over the next few months depending upon how much and how loud it’s played so that’s a factor. I wish you would have told us more about the magnets on these the vintage looked much larger and if they were both ceramic that would factor into the sound. EV makes great robust speakers so I don’t think you could go wrong with an older EV and sorry to me 87 isn’t that old……old guy born in the 50s. I think older speakers in tweed amps should definitely be replaced with newer ones if you plan to gig with them. Most old speakers are very inefficient as well I heard a 54 tweed deluxe with a new Weber speaker with a neodymium magnet that sounded just great and it was light to carry. I don’t think there is anything as impactful on the sound of an amp as the speakers. They can go from crappy to great with the right speaker.

[@VertexEffectsInc]

It had 15 hours on it, so not a bad break in period for a speaker.

[@bradc32]

good point the older speaker has a bigger magnet for sure

[@DougMen1]

You need some new headphones! The vintage one is darker and more muffled sounding on all 4 examples.

[@_brocklee]

There are some vintage sounds that you just can’t get in a modern speakers . Like ceramic oxfords from the early 60s

[@VertexEffectsInc]

No doubt!

[@stevekannes89]

Old one by far for me. The new one was too much “chime” For my taste. Now a 212 would be interesting…

[@VertexEffectsInc]

You'd still only mic one speaker.

[@kdocki]

the vintage sounds a little more saturated to me

[@whosbehindthedoor8788]

Let’s get some speakers from 50’s and 60’s

[@VertexEffectsInc]

Good luck finding EV's ;)

[@ricardocastillo924]

Old one is better. Plus cheaper if you can find them.👍

[@toneseeker87]

the new speaker sounds muffled "darker" more mids the old one is clear, more mid scooped and brighter... thats how i heard them.

[@VertexEffectsInc]

They could both be useful in some contexts!

[@j4mbs]

There are so many people making 12L clones, and I wonder if someone’s done a shootout between EV and clone, because at $125 + free shipping brand new, if those come close, then they’re totally worth it.

[@VertexEffectsInc]

What are some of the notable clones?

[@j4mbs]

I can only remember two right now. One is the Overtonez audio “thick boy”, the other is the Lase 1201. I remember seeing others, but I can’t find them now. Must’ve been small batches made by now defunct manufacturers

[@JazzRockswithAdam]

@@VertexEffectsInc WGS makes their WGS12L, Eminence makes their LEGEND EM12, Fane makes a Studio 12L, and Weber makes Ceramic Michigan 12.

[@louderthangod]

@@JazzRockswithAdam The Michigan or at least mine sound nothing like any of my EV 12L’s, not even a little.

[@TheFakeNewsFrog]

I’m going to make my prediction 8 hours early, and go with no…

[@VertexEffectsInc]

We’ll see

[@TheFakeNewsFrog]

@@VertexEffectsInc There’s actually a bigger difference than I thought… I have an old EV sat in a box, I got it with my KittyHawk amp. This makes me want to try that instead of the Celestion!

[@JasonHobbsGuitarist]

Why does everything new these days sound like a blanket was thrown over it? Lol Vintage once again for me. Eminence does a much better job at making great speakers. 🔊

[@VertexEffectsInc]

Well...EV has a classic speaker - certainly it's one of the most iconic of all time. Eminence makes great stuff too, don't know if they've ever made anything as classic as the EVM12L in terms of the ubiquity in the marketplace during their peak.

[@JasonHobbsGuitarist]

@@VertexEffectsInc To my ears Eminence Speakers are the next best thing to original… if not better. Try a Eminence Alessandro GA-SC64, you’ll love it. ✌️

[@lennylenoir]

It's a waste of time to compare the new one if it's not broken in. Use it for a couple of months and try again.

[@VertexEffectsInc]

It had about 10-15 hours on it of break it time. Should be enough to remove any early break in issues of a brand new speaker.

[@boseefusmacmurphy1156]

It's guitar speakers that suck, all of them. The second you want zero distortion this becomes evident. Luckily I can pay a bunch more money for anything specific to the guitar

[@VertexEffectsInc]

EV is about as linear as you can get, try listening to a guitar amp on a full range speaker, it also sucks.

[@EE-ct1ef]

Like a horse vs plane… new speaker sounds really bad!!

[@TheKBLarsen]

pretty disappointing video since there's no High Gain demo in this one.

[@Jay-sy5yf]

I'll be 'cot damn. The elder one sounds... eld!