Are we unmaking the world? Iain McGilchrist & Bonnitta Roy in Conversation

This conversation is part of an online seminar series taking place in the Spring and Summer of 2023 bringing innovative thinkers into conversation with Iain McGilchrist to explore his philosophy as laid out in The Matter with Things.
In the week following each event, we hold free connection and inquiry sessions online to meet and reflect more deeply with others on the significance of the ideas shared in the previous week’s seminar. Incorporating embodied and relational practices, we’ll alternate between break-out room conversations and whole-group discussion. The emphasis is on authentic connections, epistemic humility, and a sense of wonder in relation to Iain and his interlocutors' work. You're warmly invited to join us!
To join the live events or learn more about this series go to our webpage here: systems-souls-society.com/iai...
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[@TheDAT9]

I will be working my way through The Matter wit Things this coming winter. I hope to emerge in spring from an intellectual ugly duckling into a snowy white swan.

[@helenperala3459]

I enjoy listening to Iain very much as he thinks along similar lines to myself, hence why I'm listening in. I also learn a lot from the Rudolph Steiner YT Channel who very much travels along Iain's lines of thought. Thank you for this conversation and I shall re-subscribe as I haven't been here for a while but felt motivated to catch up with this gentleman's work. Awesomeness as always.

[@kateoneal4215]

I just discovered this and haven't listened to much yet, but I've always thought societies that recognize and protect themselves from sociopaths (not rewarded such behavior) are the only ones that thrive. Since studying sociopathology at college, I've always thought our inability to recognize and appropriately deal with this mental illness is our undoing.

[@cheri238]

Thank you for these extraordinary discussions.

[@mcnallyaar]

SOLID GOLD!!!!

[@Greenmanure62]

Fabulous!😊

[@kirroberts]

As someone with paranoid schizophrenia it is very encouraging to my delusions of grandeur to hear my illness brought up so frequently with so much interest in this talk. That encouragement is sometimes a bit scattered by Iains bleak outlook (around the 30 minute mark particularly). Life is pretty good, isnt it? 100 years ago there wasn't a lot of charity toward people in my position, nor was there toward anyone really, with things like workhouses for the elderly and disabled, and the like. Maybe its just that melancholy is the thinkers illness, and that being incredibly intelligent comes with an unwanted portion of pain and suffering? Very challenging and stimulating material though, thank you.

[@janegca]

Thank you so much for providing a practical framework that allows us to think about the state of the world in a meaningful way. Can't help but wonder if what we are experiencing is the "unmaking of the humane world" for it seems that our culture is trying to remake us into empty shells whose utility can be newly determined moment to moment. Have had an uneasy feeling for years that there is a definite attempt to redefine what it means to be human that completely leaves out any sense of humanity. Especially insidious is the idea that there is no ground of being, no centre to any of us and so no common human experience. I think people know instinctively that this is not true but have no language to explain how they know it and this adds to the anger and angst that they feel about the current state of the world.

[@paulolima6407]

"Imagination is our one chance of feeling our way into the inside of the world and experiencing it." That's related to the philosophy of Schelling. Beautiful indeed. And also the distiction between imagination and fantasy: "fantasy takes us away from reality", while imagination don't.

[@roberthallstrand4167]

Dont worry people.. it`s all a learning sesion here on earth.. when we "die" we wil come home and se the real life we have.... so pls dont worry, ive had NDE so i know.. bless you people

[@francinemancini7476]

Thank you.

[@lilianarovegno4325]

Communicate less !!!! Yesss or loose your capacities . Great Dr. Iain

[@Conquer332]

Great episode

[@VenusLover17]

Thanks so much for all of you guys’ work❤❤

[@missh1774]

Thank you Iain. Spot on.

[@rebekahlevy4562]

MY DEFINITION OF THE "ROOT MASS DELUSION:" The reason why McGilchrist keeps referencing Coleridge, Blake, Goethe and others from the late Western Classical and early Romantic eras--in my view--is because after the intellectual "enlightenment" of the 17th and 18th Centuries, accompanied by the flowering of a literate, educated middle class, there emerged the first flowering of EMOTIONAL openness and inclusion into the literary and fine arts. [This can also be seen in the first real public acknowledgment and inclusion of FEMALE participation in those arts as well--NOT mere coincidence.] I'm saying that the Left Hemisphere's (and, largely, men's) willingness to express emotions OTHER than the stereotypic "male ones" (the ones primarily expressed by the LH)--sexual desire, anger, victory in battle, conquest and competition, and rage. Unfortunately, most humans were opening at least several millennia's worth of repressed emotions and, by the end of the 19th Century (the late Romantic), waves of trauma-originated emotion in many ways had overshadowed the intellect in aesthetics, as well as philosophy (think Kierkegaard, Nietzsche). Not coincidentally, this is also when Freud began his work... . What I'm saying here is that humans still have *in any adult way NOT mastered their emotions*, precisely because so many of us experience *mastery as repression* rather than *mastery as experiential knowlege through practice, and especially WITHOUT GOING STRAIGHT TO ACTING-OUT, or (immaturely) using movies onto which to project them, without having to take responsibility for them*. The majority of our LH coup d'etat could be resolved if only we would learn how to do this. I.e., not merely "transcend" our emotions, but learn to live more securely WITH them.

[@Kwalk1989]

Such a fantastic comment. I really like the part about Kierkegaard and Nietzsche, that their philosophies are a response to trauma, never thought of it like that.

[@JiminiCrikkit]

I'm reminded of a statement from Carl Yung "The foundation of all mental illness is the unwillingness to experience legitimate suffering"... I think its important to keep a track on what this really means to each individual and their own context, meaning in life, relative position etc.

[@mimiporter8610]

Wow

[@kateoneal4215]

Excellent observation!!!

[@jacobsaadya]

The delusion comes from eating from the table of Baal shazzar. and believing yore on a ball earth spinning round the sun .

[@sarahhhh775]

"I look/Around a world where I seem nothing, with/Thoughts that arise within me, as if they/Could master all things". from Cain, a drama by Lord Byron.

[@dorasneddon774]

Thank you so much for this wonderful discussion. There is so much here to take in and refocus my gaze, affirm the non-mechanistic sense I have of the world. Working for 40 years as an Occupational Therapist, I saw the change from viewing the work as a collaboration with an individual to restore function and meaning in their life, according to their desired goals and needs, to a formulaic application of 'evidence based' (meaning someone had written a paper on it) protocols which did not serve the individual well and led to superficial and usually, short-term, unsatisfactory outcomes for the individual. The number of people processed in this way was valued by the 'healthcare system', not the long-term outcome for individuals moving forward with greater confidence and independence. The 'healthcare system' is no longer about health or care, but enslaving people to the notion that they are chronically vulnerable and must remain dependent for their survival on endless tests and medical interventions. Utterly bleak and awful. I now embrace, advocate and promote health accountability and a return to natural ways of building, maintaining and improving health.

[@ourladymelody]

"A Strong Delusion" the Old Book says will be manifested by those who have not specifically "received the Love of the Truth".

[@scottlogiudice]

I find assumptions of 'the cosmos' so arrogant when all we really see is lights in the sky. We are given deceptions of science fiction presented as fact based on theories and liars.

[@Monchkrit]

By giving over left hemisphere content to AI, is it possible to move forward with right hemisphere restoration of beauty and creativity?

[@levitation25]

I think the people on this planet have always tried to do things differently to make things better, for themselves at least, not necessarily for everyone, we need to scrutinise and be watchful and voice our concerns if need be when we risk losing more than we would gain by change.

[@michellecolletti2341]

Hi Bonnitta, please read about the mirror neuron system/mirror mechanism in the brain. It is the neurological substrate for intersubjectivity. It underlies what you say regarding communication via living tissue.

[@ggioja]

This kind of mind want to “taste everything twice …” 🙏🏽

[@Kwalk1989]

I don't know this woman but she came with a fire haircut and some fire questions. I like her.

[@ejenkins4711]

I wrote with my left hand until 2004 when i had some unusal exsperinces. I started writing stuff with my right hand. I have yet to find anyone to talk to. Some one like ian would be spot on⌚🦁🌪️

[@paulolima6407]

"Ignoring the uniqueness of people". That is for sure something that is underestimated. Most of us are so self-involved that there's no interest to look at the world and other people. And not even look at ourselves despite being self-involved. Being self-involved does not equal self-care or looking at yourself in a smart and thoughtful way. It does not equal self-awareness. So, most of us ignore the uniqueness even within ourselves in favor of social uniformity out of the fear of being different and as a result feeling isolated, in favor of copying popular opinions and behaviors, in favor of doing anything to belong sacrificing who they trully are. The forces of our nature do conflit, sure. We need the plasticity of letting a bit of ourselves be ignored because we're supposed to be a "social species" as everybody likes to repeat on and on, maybe more than they should. So can we escape our own ability to ignore ourselves for the sake of adaptation and therefore survival? Would the secret of it all be to find balance? And how we find balance? Maybe the answer goes back to looking at ourselves. Within our uniqueness we may find the building blocks of the unique set of answers each one need. So what balances things out is unique to each of us. I'm not saying it's easy to look at ourselves, but the first thing to do is to make an effort and be inside the effort for as long as we can. To look for the answer by accessing every sort of knowledge (many of these sources won't speak to you, so you have to be patient and persist looking at different sources). You should do terapy, and talk to friends, but those aren't enough. So read loads of different books and ideas, journal, spend time elaborating these ideas, digesting and interacting with them, (it's not empty thinking or rumination), exercise, meditate, cut some sugar, eat better, cut a lot of entertainment, sleep better, manage your time better and better, etc. Well, search for knowledge within and outside yourself. It may not solve your issues in the end, I have no ideas if we can have guarantees, but this effort sure is better than wasting your days suffering isolated in a corner (even isolated from yourself because you refuse to even hear your own uniqueness) or trying absolutely nothing.

[@michellecolletti2341]

Regarding direct attunement, please read attachment literature from psychology.

[@jamesboswell9324]

Good, Beautiful and True... and no less importantly Just. We should not ignore or overlook how unjust civilisation has become. You cannot have a healthy society that remains unfair and unequal as ours and in which (according to an Oxfam report) 8 individuals own as much as everyone else combined. The few have gone completely mad on power while the majority are being deliberately impoverished in every conceivable way.

[@kateoneal4215]

Yes. Unimpeded, even rewarded, sociopathic tendencies are our collective undoing. No society can thrive under the current "collective Western" paradigm. Thank you for adding that extremely critical point. (Which I also made in an earlier comment.)

[@jamesboswell9324]

@@kateoneal4215 Agreed and thank you :)

[@SensemakingMartin]

I think justice is included in goodness

[@theresabrons]

Minute 26 reminds me of 'Scanners Live in Vain', a 1950s science fiction story where a select group of men undergo a procedure that separates their brain from their body in order to endure the pain of space travel. They have to monitor their bodies through instruments!

[@MrGroovequest]

29:33 Bonnitta to her dog: "You have absolutely no chance for being in the world." Her dog: "woof" "arf" "grrrrrrr" "whimper"

[@vthilton]

Sharing will save the world.

[@tadhghayden8440]

Great dialogue just what I needed as an antidote to the virtuality of this last day ...These two souls....their alert humility, service to what we most need to know as it stands for now, gives them their majesty....in their service to their own evolution co conjunct to the needs of the collective....Keep bing these vehicles of light n love ..in these desperately deluded values investment times...Keep this great symbiosis going!!!! What we are looking at now ..is the great unblinking synthetic omniscience of artificial information systems... replacing the natural template temple's of our innate selves.....The saving of our very souls is. Here...now...at ...Stake......mute screaming transfixed entranced abomination's lay lurking down the road.... What are we investing in????Do we know what is worthy????to invest in..... From a theological angle the first great sinner was the lustrous grand fallen angel who thought he knew better , knew better answers !...and quicker and more quickly gratification that the one that created him and gave him his patient directives...for his tender entrustments... including us in this neck of the cosmic woods...

[@sorayaboyd9275]

From Sovereign To Serf: Government by The Treachery and Deception of Words by Roger S. Sayles

[@shahlaahy4372]

Is there something in losing primal trust due to too much intervention at birth? Once lost, rest of life, for many, becomes a quest for search and explanations for that which is beyond that. Then there's childhood which is robbed of it's quality of wonder by "stop wonering", and shovelling half baked "knowledge" to get on in this world...yet in spite of all that miraculously some of us maintain that sense of "wonder", as well as grateful for all that knowledge of "things" have afforded us!

[@turtlebayster]

Can someone please tell me when in this video is the title question asked?

[@christiandinkel8481]

I find it pervading the entire affair.

[@MaudMargretheRex]

18:27

[@turtlebayster]

Nowhere, I think.

[@turtlebayster]

Thanks Maud, but no. The title of the video has been changed. Previously it read: "Are we collectively insane?"

[@Jackie-wt4zv]

1.07

[@SingularitySplitting]

We fear and entertain the idea of living in a simulation because it takes effort that is not widely promoted, to move up the hiarchy of needs, and voluntearily experience and explore meta experiences and needs. This creates an aversion to authorship and ownership of free will choices and consequences. Another byproduct of all of this is crisis of identity, in regards to our and other peoples experiences and views on gender, maleness, womaness, themness, etc. Additionally, it generates scapegoating and othering, in direct proportion to the individuals unreconciled distance between conscous, free will thought and willpower actions, and subconscious motivations.

[@Sigmacadabra]

Perhaps A.I. could help us in the revitalization in that it would understand all tasks related to left hemispheric thinking almost exclusively. Ideally, freeing us to rediscover our world. I'll admit that things look to be going the opposite direction but I suspect that may be guided by the perceived self interest of those in power. We probably need to step away and watch things crash and get worse before we can be permitted to help make positive change.

[@cynthiaford6976]

Perhaps the sheer magnitude of what is unmaking the world has everyone feeling an centrifugal pull of great strength. But maybe we could see this magnitude as a gift, as in Jack Gilbert's A Brief for the Defense: ...We must have the stubbornness to accept our gladness in the ruthless furnace of this world. To make injustice the only measure of our attention is to praise the Devil. If the locomotive of the Lord runs us down, we should give thanks that the end had magnitude.... Or the world as albatross around our necks, or stone of unimaginable weight unshareable, might give way to this, from the recently away the crow road, Charles Simic: Stone Go inside a stone That would be my way. Let somebody else become a dove Or gnash with a tiger’s tooth. I am happy to be a stone. From the outside the stone is a riddle: No one knows how to answer it. Yet within, it must be cool and quiet Even though a cow steps on it full weight, Even though a child throws it in a river, The stone sinks, slow, unperturbed To the river bottom Where the fishes come to knock on it And listen. I have seen sparks fly out When two stones are rubbed. So perhaps it is not dark inside after all; Perhaps there is a moon shining From somewhere, as though behind a hill- Just enough light to make out The strange writings, the star charts On the inner walls. Thank you for these discussions across the technologically crucified geographies!

[@kiljoy3254]

I suppose I was somewhat deluded in my adolescence... it was really a coping mechanism. I think it was a failure to distinguish idealism from destiny. I’ve readjusted as the years have gone by an certain things that I was quite sure would come about, did not. It was a an ‘idealism’ that the culture did not share... but they did in so far as it is what makes films like Lord Of The Rings so popular. Not that people literally believe in Hobbits and Orcs... but that the values of humility and honesty... resisting temptation, are admired. When I see the word ‘truth’ in the chapter headings of The Matter With Things, I can see why, it’s understandable... but people actually have a good grasp of the truth; that’s why so many hate Trump (TDS) - I highly recommend Steve Turley’s recent video ‘Here’s why the Dems are panicking over Trump’ (though I don’t necessarily agree with Charlie Kirk’s analysis). People hate Trump because so much of society is built on lies and Trump, for all his flaws, recognises how disastrous the situation is and is trying to do a course correction. See also Tucker, Glenn Grenwald, Naomi Wolf, Robert Kennedy Jr and Col Douglas MacGregor and Scott Ritter on the Ukraine situation. It’s not about truth, it’s about Conscience and good faith, vs bad faith... so many people are in the habit of defaulting to bad faith.

[@kateoneal4215]

Trump appeals to our baser nature of anger over injustices, an emotion devoid of critical thinking, however. A knee-jerk reaction is, unfortunately, so much easier to sway a large mass of people than the well-considered and soft-spoken thoughts of a statesman like RFK, Jr. And the sites you mention are excellent.

[@kiljoy3254]

@@kateoneal4215 “Trump appeals to our baser nature of anger over injustices, an emotion devoid of critical thinking, however.” I’ve followed literally hundreds of hours of Bannon’s WarRoom... it’s true Bannon has talent for military rhetoric (it’s in the title right?) but he is generally good natured... and even in his more strident rants I think he’s basically on point (I am concerned about his stance on China/CCP though) Anyway... I have a very good sense of the general make up of MAGA, and I think they are far from being a the mercy of their baser instincts... so many of Bannon’s guests... virtually all of them in fact have impressed me a lot

[@paulgrieve7031]

Again We’re not all Americans! Iain certainly isn’t; stop trying to abduct him! You can’t possibly succeed, so what gives you the motivation?

[@kiljoy3254]

@@paulgrieve7031 What do you mean “again”? We’re not all Americans? Do you think I am? What can you possibly mean? Please elaborate. “Iain certainly isn’t; stop trying to abduct him! You can’t possibly succeed, so what gives you the motivation?” I think that’s a very revealing statement... in fact your whole comment is. Here’s the sad thing; you make some outrageous claims and then ask ‘What gives you motivation?’ But you don’t really want to know do you? By saying ‘stop trying to abduct him’ you make Iain sound weak and pathetic and vulnerable... Now, stop mincing about and speak in good faith... if you think I am in bad faith, well... help me out, where do I go wrong?

[@rigaleb]

We are now the caterpillar entering the cocoon.

[@joebossano9440]

Some argue, when push comes to shove, you can't trust people... So you can't trust people. No. When push comes to shove is what happens when you've stopped trusting people, so you must trust people!

[@SA-ww1ge]

Isn’t greed a large part of the direct we’ve gone. Entertainment

[@kateoneal4215]

Yes. Western civilization/unfettered capitalism encourages sociopathological behavior.

[@matthewsheek8306]

I’m coming months late to this but I do have a question. Has autism been linked to brain side? Is it related to the left hemisphere?

[@NineInchTyrone]

Six minutes before the show

[@andrewfield722]

I wonder what Ian would say about people *with* mental illness experiencing the world through the lens of maximal response to the beautiful, good, and true, or what inspires love. I have schizoaffective disorder, and have been greatly enjoying The Master and his Emissary and these conversations, but sometimes Ian seems so hellbent on portraying people with schizophrenia-spectrum illnesses as totally unable to feel love, or gratitude, or the "superfluous awe," if that was the phrase, that it can feel a bit disheartening. Maybe that's unfair, since my impression is that Ian works with people with mental illness. Anyways, thank you so much for these conversations, which I've found really illuminating.

[@patriciamoore51]

The mad world is the simulation we’re talking about.

[@jesperandersson889]

Will you publish me?

[@sorayaboyd9275]

We now are living at a time where the perverters and robbers of souls thrive

[@jacqloock]

Who’s your “we”?

[@jamesboswell9324]

1:20:05 I don't think it's true to say the caterpillar has a completely different genome to the butterfly. I just looked up the question on Google and found the following answer (Naked Scientists): "Any single individual of any species is going to have the same DNA throughout its entire lifespan. What changes in butterflies is, particularly between a caterpillar and an adult butterfly, is they go through metamorphosis. And during this process there's a hormone which is found in most insects as they change from a larvae into an adult, which is called ecdysone, and that hormone triggers metamorphosis and it changes how DNA expression works. So all of the cells within the caterpillar will start to produce different proteins and slowly that will cause a mass physiological change because the DNA is being expressed differently. It's creating different proteins and all of the cells will change..."

[@williambranch4283]

House of cards, eventually it all falls down

[@tales-from-this-crypt]

In a somer seson, whan softe was the sonne, I shoop me into shroudes as I a sheep were, In habite as an heremite unholy of werkes, Wente wide in this world wondres to here. whatever spin you put on it we are the whirled

[@NineInchTyrone]

The male host would prolly have been better

[@alisonappleby30]

Not one of his best days (and the 'you and I' at 1:05 didn't fail to provoke a shudder), but coping with missing persons must be bit of a strain. Perhaps a limit case in an otherwise briliant series.

[@NineInchTyrone]

The humanities need novelty to justify a new PhD thesis and don’t require grounding in replicable experiment

[@m.h.744]

37:35 overregulation, too many rules

[@NineInchTyrone]

Too many judges have made such stupid decisions that rules were imposed to prevent such outcomes

[@kateoneal4215]

...or to swell the ranks of the minions employed by our unprecedented vast prison industrial complex.

[@NineInchTyrone]

Get to the point !

[@NineInchTyrone]

And the trans woman is a woman idea ?

[@ingenuity168]

AI , ChatGpt is for assisting humans with information, service and creativity.

[@stunningkruger]

wisdom or why he’s dumb? To have a wise dome. is to become wizened like an old tree. but the wise have many why’s, recognizing how little they know. So become more elegant with age. Why? Because age is meant to make us all smarter 🤔

[@missh1774]

"age or why" ... that's not necessarily true.

[@stunningkruger]

@@missh1774 few things are universally true

[@user-hy9nh4yk3p]

How about the truth - that was always and is and will be. Love is the Base. Something thought, felt always and experienced and just cannot be denied - by meself, that is. Keep well.@@stunningkruger

[@stunningkruger]

@@user-hy9nh4yk3p thank you all the best to you 👍

[@NineInchTyrone]

Is ARTIFICIAL intelligence. ChatGPT10 may be AGI if each iteration is an order of magnitude in power

[@Neilgs]

“Where is the pain coming from that we are living in a simulation?” This is essentially from a fundamental lack of affective feelings of implicit procedural (beneath declarative or semantic memory) sense of relatedness/ connectedness. The latter then intergenerationally and epigenetically supports not ventral vagus safety (ie physiological homeostasis or autonomic social-emotional sense of interoceptive and neuroceptive safety) but instead individuals, groups, societies who tend to be highly mobilized sympathetic-adrenal fight/flight defenses or worse in states of parasympathetic withdrawal/shutdown and/or dissociation.