Can the Red Army Destroy the Waffen SS Panzer Elite? - Prokhorovka Part 3

[@WorldWarTwo]

So, the Battle of Prokhorovka begins! We hope you enjoy watching our coverage of it as much as we did making it. We hope you all enjoyed Christmas and we wish you a Happy New Year! If you haven’t already, join the Timeghost Army at www.patreon.com/c/TimeGhostHistory so we can make more stuff like this in 2025!

[@Man-in-Black]

Did you also use Dr Roman Töppel's book or just English language literature?

[@momcilogavric4930]

Great series,thx👌🙋

[@RussianThunderrr]

@@Man-in-Black wrote: "Did you also use Dr Roman Töppel's book or just English language literature?" -- What an excellent question, I was wondering the same thing...

[@Move-on19]

@WorldWarTwo So.....No Amin al Husayni? Stories are circulating the internet even with pictures. Saying this is a palestinian mufti that convinced Hitler to hate and murder jews.

[@cowhand6112]

Aah, the fog of war. One hundred yards can make all the difference between "we easily repelled their attack" and "they just kept coming". And both can be true. Great work, Indy and crew.

[@Gnosis639]

The Soviets normally do a probing attack with penal battalions first, which is why the initial attack is normally repelled. Interesting because it's still in their doctrine, unofficial penal battalions is the purpose Wagner served.

[@W1se0ldg33zer]

If you ask a surviving tanker details about a certain battle on a certain date, they'd likely remember they had a really good meal on a Wednesday sometime that month.

[@obi-wankenobi1750]

The beet soup was only SLIGHTLY undercooked this time!

[@SnatchedCafe628]

Okay but a tank drag race does sound cool as hell

[@Orvieta]

France wins it in reverse. :) Is joke ok, someone had to make it.

[@LizzyMeyer-g1d]

Commenting for the algorithm and to say thank you!

[@krispypriest5116]

👍

[@WorldWarTwo]

Thank you!

[@roberthawley40]

The comparie / contrast of the two accounts (Forczyk vs Glantz) is outstanding! A level of historical interpretive detail I never see! Congratulations to all involved!

[@WorldWarTwo]

Thank you for the lovely comment Robert!

[@sashimanu]

Love the anachronistic “Schubert 3-werst” maps dating back to 1860s, but possibly updated around WWI or shortly thereafter, with pre-Revolution spelling, with overprints in German, and with 3D animation over it, superb work.

[@P_RO_]

The "fog of war" extends to different people's memories of events, and at best all stories come from different perspectives.

[@El_Presidente_5337]

And the very best have some direct connection with each other.

[@harmseberhardharmseberhard9908]

Amazing storytelling giving goosebumps to the audience. And a bloody reality for the poor men that went through this world of steel and fire.

[@AptWaffleMantis2278]

I really like the comparison between accounts from the two sides

[@chrismead3150]

Truly sorry I missed the Live premiere, this community has a unique way of making one feel a part of and I definitely appreciate that

[@WorldWarTwo]

Hope to see you on the next one, catch it next Saturday at 15:30 CET!

[@sopwithsnoopy8779]

"This is Sergei, from State Farm. We need artillery..." "Sergei from State Farm? What are you wearing, 'Sergei from State Farm?" "Ummm... khaki's?"

[@nb2008nc]

She sounds hideous

[@AptWaffleMantis2278]

I understood that reference

[@nb2008nc]

@@sopwithsnoopy8779 My comment got deleted

[@sopwithsnoopy8779]

@@nb2008nc I didn't have it deleted. Must be some KZbin algorithm? 🤷

[@nb2008nc]

@sopwithsnoopy8779 Probably. They probably didn't like what the wife said to the husband about how Jake sounded after she talked to him.

[@RussianThunderrr]

-- Thanks for an excellent coverage of Prohorovka battle. I have to say there are two Russian historians, A. Isaev and V. Zamulin. They work separately form each other, and have great lectures, even showing photos of the battle, and verbally describing nuances of this battle in great detail. Zamulin supposed to have a documentary film long time ago, it was slowed down by Covid and ect..., but now they supposed to premier it in a couple coming months. And yes, for years I've heard of difficult ravine, that created a "bottleneck" in Rotmisterov's tank formation, and anti tank ditch that "swallowed" many T-34 tanks in a famous pile up, and "gallant" stand of Piper and Robbintrop, but its all those pieces finally came together in a "live" battle development of your team map! Thank you for it! P.S. Also great thanks for separation on different versions of how battle unfolded per authors. Roman Topell is another great historian how covers battle of Prohorovka, unfortunately I don't understand fluent German. -- And A. Isaev does goes to German archives, but his work more in line of D. Glance, and yes both Zamulin and Isaev "dispelling" Soviet myth that battle of Prohorovka was tank on tank, like a two knights jousting each other, and more in line Germans broke through too deep an expectantly a day before, and occupied good position, and had time to set up/dug in AT guns, so they were in much better and luckier position to take on Rotmisterov's 5th tank army that just arrived in the morning and been an hour or two thrown into batlle, out of fear of Germans Stuka and other bombers, since tanks were in open are sitting "ducks".

[@ronjohnson6916]

Appreciate the effort to get as much the true story as is possible.

[@HistoryBeyondBordersTV]

Your detailed account of the Soviet counterattack stands out as the most credible version I’ve encountered over the decades. It’s clear that access to the Russian archives has significantly contributed to understanding how much of the narrative around Kursk, as described by Paul Karl Schmidt (alias Paul Carell), was shaped by UK propaganda with a touch of romanticized storytelling. It's worth noting that Schmidt/Carell was a close associate of Ribbentrop in the SS Allgemeine, making him more of a bureaucrat with a flair for writing but a tendency for deception. Thank you for your work and your captivating storytelling approach!

[@AstroJoeVino]

All those State Farm insurance offices right in the middle of a war zone. Crazy

[@konst80hum]

Love the granularity and the depth of the video.... Great work guys!

[@WorldWarTwo]

Thanks for watching!

[@Nintendo0994]

its kind of wild how much this battle feels like a map of Hell Let Loose. With the tank infiltration disrupting artillery and everything.

[@KMac329]

Exciting stuff! Description and analysis of combat at the platoon, company and battalion level is always more engaging than a wider-focused view that just presents lines on a map.

[@chriscarey1478]

Great job sir. Your format/stage/presentation is......just WOW! 😊

[@aaroncabatingan5238]

5:15 In hindsight, maybe charging tanks into a line of anti-tank guns might be a terrible idea. 14:05 What an absolute madlad

[@ChrisBarber-b2r]

Such incredible work that you all do. Thank you.

[@tomaspettersson6119]

Briljant avsnitt det här, hörreni. Bra jobbat!

[@Gedwyn11]

These videos are truly excellent. Shedding old myths and giving a clear and visceral image of the battle. Thank you!

[@lewiswestfall2687]

Thanks TG

[@doodlenov]

2 hours ago I found part 1 and 2... Hell yeah

[@coltseavers6298]

This is great! You guys/gals are fantastic in putting these together.

[@butternutmunchkin]

The chaos of point blank range shooting and ramming of German and Soviet armor, combined with hand-to-hand fighting between their tank crews during the Battle of Prokhorovka was depicted in the first episode of the 1970 Soviet series "Liberation." The only inaccuracy in that scene were the tanks themselves, with T-34/85 models standing in for the T-34/76 tanks and converted T-55 and IS-2/3 tanks representing German Tiger I and Panther tanks.

[@RussianThunderrr]

-- Yes, Pz-V Panthers were not present at the battle of Prokorovka, but Oboyan. Yes, Ozerov's movie mini series "Liberation" was of epic in massive scenes proportions, and some of the footage for example of Soviet T-55 posing as Tiger does make me cringe, and still making into Western documentary as authentic. So is T-34-85 on rampage(ramming tracks and ect., but jumping T-34 over IS-2 posing as Panther is jaw dropping stant and very amusing. Overall I think any WWII buff should watch that movie, but keep in mind, that back in those days most archives was still classified and could potentially put producer in hot "waters", but I think Ozerov did a descent job to the best of his abilities. It defiantly worth watching.

[@billd2635]

Thanx for this in-depth view.

[@thurbine2411]

Once again superb content. One thing I would like more of are scales on the maps. I guess it can be hard when zooming around on the map but when the scale is constant it would be very nice.

[@annehersey9895]

As for the different interpretations of the battle, I think because of the various and nefarious battles and operations coupled with Malmedy ending with his assassination, Pffeifer has become a well known participant in the war. I don’t think back when Glantz was writing there was as much interest in WWII and also so much has been declassified starting in the 90’s that some of the more detailed information hadn’t yet come to light or been verified when Glantz wrote. It wasn’t until’91 when the USSR fell that these records were even available to the West.

[@hannahskipper2764]

Another great episode. I can't imagine what it was like, fog of war and all!

[@DurinSBane-zh9hj]

Google maps has street view for the area around Prokhorovka. "Hill 252" is a generous description of the terrain

[@WorldWarTwo]

Yes, we even struggled to visualize it well enough to get it in the exact right place… more like “Bump 252.1.”

[@chrismead3150]

Exciting and thorough. Thank you ❤

[@dtaylor10chuckufarle]

"Quantity is its own quality." - Stalin

[@michaelinhouston9086]

I certainly hope that no small farm animals were injured in the fighting around the state farm.

[@naveenraj2008eee]

Hi Indy Another awesome week. Thanks

[@mladjonicius]

Excellent work !!!

[@Sergi88998]

Now that you are recapitulating and expanding information about the war, will you do specials on the role of each country in the war as you did in the First World War? It would be interesting to see chapters dedicated to countries like Denmark, Romania, Greece, Brazil, etc.

[@ivvan497]

It's worth noting how small the battlefield actually is IRL if you see it on maps. We're talking about up to 1000m at most. Entire battlefield shown in the animations is like 3-4sq meters

[@TunekSunevi]

how many football fields in american terms?

[@thethirdman225]

@@TunekSunevi Who cares?

[@justink1985]

@@thethirdman225 Great contribution!

[@jeraldbottcher1588]

@@TunekSunevi 3

[@ReclinedPhysicist]

Sometimes quantity has a quality all its own

[@Hyde_Hill]

Great work. And always love all the myth busting that goes on.

[@sopwithsnoopy8779]

An ex- coworker of mine (ex because he just passed away 2 weeks ago) told me that his grandfather was an officer in the 3rd SS panzer div. and was killed at Kursk. Co-worker said his grandfather was caught in a 'Stalins Organ' barrage, and all they found of him was a boot, with foot still inside 😮

[@agnes6585]

"so the grave was easy to dig!" the SS was cannon flesh, thousands of young people sacrificed by manstein, the 1st,2, 3, SS divisions strong 24.000 men, were reformed up to 7 times, why youth applied for these units??? MFG

[@danweyant4909]

​. " It seemed like a good idea at the time. "

[@TeutonicEmperor1198]

@@agnes6585 To cannon all men are equal!

[@RobTzu]

They ever find out who's foot it was?

[@MrTeddy1994]

How'd they know it was his foot?

[@NigelDeForrest-Pearce-cv6ek]

Battle Is Chaos!!!

[@bobperrine6193]

My exfather-in-law was on the eastern front and said that they would kill five T-34s while 40 would simply go around his position.

[@RussianThunderrr]

-- They probably had their orders to push through behind enemy lines, and wreck havoc there.

[@residentgeardo]

Spoiler alert: Ribbentrop will survive the war, bevome a merchant and live to the age of 98. He only died in 2019. What a hell of a ride.

[@rick7424]

???

[@j.4332]

I didnt know that.Did he serve in Normandy then and the Bulge?

[@residentgeardo]

@@j.4332 It seems so, yes. According to Wikipedia he was at the Falaise pocket and also the Battle of the Bulge.

[@GeorgeSemel]

Young Ribbentrop did not enter the family wine business; he became a banker. As you put it, he sure did have a hell of a ride in life.

[@nikgtasa]

Love the title reference.

[@shawnr771]

Thank you for the lesson. History might be written in stone. Always remember there might be other stones. Either with contradicting information or with information that was previously unknown. It is best to keep an open of mind as possible. Our own memories can cloud our good judgement.

[@jasonrichardsondvi177]

You guys should do the 7 years war. I mean you could argue it as the first world war

[@welcometonebalia]

Thank you.

[@stewartmckenna3136]

great stuff thanks

[@EricFatzinger-yl6pf]

Outstanding!

[@erikracz4162]

Unknowingly to the Soviets, some of those Tiger tanks were manned by some of Germanys greatest tank aces, and they Soviets got a big beating, they lost an incredible amount of tanks, Germany didn’t lose that many, but some Tigers actually ran out of shells, and had run back to reload

[@Gszarco94]

Excellent as always!

[@YiannissB.]

"You cant hear text" *armies of the soviet union, charge!*

[@hoodoo2001]

The Malmedy Massacre did not happen in Malmedy. The Americas successfully defended Malmedy. The massacre occurred some two miles away at a crossroads where most of the prisoners had been taken from a convoy that had run into the German advance. Peiper then diverted away from Malmedy and it was only attacked later in the battle and held by the Americans. Malmedy became associated with the massacre because the soldiers that somehow managed to escape the massacre went to Malmedy where it was reported. In four hours word had gotten to the Inspector General of the Army and the word went out to cut SS no slack in regarding taking them prisoner.

[@royalmason1539]

Great report, but it would have been very helpful to have a scale visible on your maps.

[@agnes6585]

Your detailed version of the course of the Soviet counterattack is for me, the most credible of the many versions "digested" in decades, it is obvious that the opening of the Russian archives certainly helps and allows us to understand how far the versions of Kourks related by Paul Karl Schmidt alias Paul Carrel, are a fabric of UK propaganda romancée, know that Schmidt/Carrel was a close friend of Ribbentrop in the SS Algemeine, so an "Rond de Cuir" office with the "beautiful pen" but with the "forked tongue". Thank you for your work and your "exciting" storytelling method.

[@vmycode5142]

Sabaton reference in the title, cheeky

[@LizzyMeyer-g1d]

Which song was that again?

[@alexanderstoyanov7464]

​@@LizzyMeyer-g1d Panzerkampf

[@vmycode5142]

@@LizzyMeyer-g1d panzerkampf

[@bwcmakro]

@@LizzyMeyer-g1d Panzerkampf

[@julian2626]

@@LizzyMeyer-g1d Panzerkampf if memory serves me correctly

[@secretagent7888]

Excellent.

[@paulyost6849]

Its crazy the germans were like hey lets attack with our few tanks and men against this giant russian army

[@peterlynchchannel]

Not the first time or the last that someone made that exact same decision.

[@shaider1982]

Weird, firing on the move for a ww2 tank would probably mean wasting ammo

[@GeorgeSemel]

Prokhorovka is one of the places on my bucket list to go and just look around for a week or two, along with Stalingrad (Volgograd) and some other sights in Russia. Well, that plan is not going to happen anytime soon. The Ukrainians have established a significant foothold in the Kursk Oblast. German Leopards are no doubt there; something to think about is how historians will write about this in the coming years. Like Prokhorovka, the current battles will need to settle down for some years to get a better grasp on how they were fought, won, and lost. .

[@minkymoo4794]

@4:20 Nice looking 3D graphics there.

[@WorldWarTwo]

We've also been using them in our coverage of the Korean War! The map team has been rapidly improving them each week.

[@ThrowawayModeller]

Another very good source for the entire battle of Kursk is Dr. Roman Toeppels book. Highly recommended!

[@alexanderstoyanov7464]

Sabaton approves this video title :)

[@alexamerling79]

Into the motherland the German army march!

[@sirbillius]

Comrades stood side my side to stop the Nazi charge.

[@gargravarr2]

​@@sirbilliusPanzers on Russian soil, a thunder in the East.

[@Klovaneer]

One million men at war, the soviet wrath unleashed!

[@mohammedsaysrashid3587]

Wonderful introduction

[@Spiderfisch]

8:31 i guess you could say the soviet tanks were sus

[@destroyer0685]

If you do prokerhovka then you should also do Mainstains backhand blow as well as the battle of bulge and the Normandy breakout to name a few.

[@jasonmussett2129]

I think some of the myths surrounding Prokhorovka is Soviet tank crews mistaking Panzer IVs for Tigers much like U.S. Sherman crews did in Normandy in 1944

[@spartacus-olsson]

Wait and see - all shall be answered - including where the myths came from.

[@jasonmussett2129]

@@spartacus-olsson looking forward to it 👍

[@sujinahjina4238]

08:33 among us

[@NGabunchanumbers]

I think it would be beneficial, when listing casualties, to list casualties of both sides. It is not much use to hear what one side lost if we dont know what the other side paid. 14:20 only german losses, and 17:00 only soviet losses are listed. Hopefully at the end of the series there is an overall rounup, but the individual motions are also interesting, to see which attacks were successful and which were not.

[@Kingpinatron]

I had to watch this video twice because I kept daydreaming about a T-34 drag race.

[@matthewmcmacken6716]

This really need to be developed into a major motion picture or at least a long series for TV. Nice work, guys.

[@thethirdman225]

🙄

[@matzenoe]

Outstanding work, congrats! One question, though: wasn‘t there a anti tank ditch that the sovjets overlooked and that allowed Rippentrop to take out so many Tanks?

[@TheZINGularity]

Aaaaat @ 8:33 . I rest my case.

[@j.4332]

In episode two,Indy went into detail of how the 3rd SS wasted a day attempting to deploy a bridging unit over the Psel river..I cannot see why,the commander,was it Hausser,decided they even needed to cross the river.Surely it would have made more sense to hold the river bank,and advance along it...

[@xeutoniumnyborg1192]

🎶 Like a good Comrade, Stalinsk State Farm is there..🎶

[@barrygray3615]

Reminds me of the old “Panzerblitz” Situation 10, which has been called all wrong and is virtually impossible for the German player to win. Maybe the designers relied on Soviet accounts?

[@bolshoefeodor6536]

Have you tried "Platoon Commander: Kursk" by M. Walker? It plays like an Indy Neidell epsiode!

[@CochoSGO]

Oh, so those 15 T34s are the ones who were trampling the nebelwerfer positions in the regular episode?

[@Karrpilot]

Soviet propaganda? Say it isn't so. Russia wouldn't lie about that.

[@bryant7201]

Has anyone filmed a drag race between a Sherman, T 34, and a Panzer IV?

[@garysparks-vc2ij]

I love your vids

[@j.4332]

To recap:General Rotmistrov and the 5th Guards Tanks have formed up to stop the IInd SS Panzer Korps.Will they manage to defeat this mighty onslaught?Will Hitler have his victory?Carry on Indy,we await the next episode!

[@RussianThunderrr]

-- I know its a funny predicament of "cliff hanger", while you know what the ending is going to be, yet Indy manages to do it! I can't hardly wait already for next weekend!

[@j.4332]

@@RussianThunderrr He always leaves it on a cliffhanger,very interesting how he relates the story,even though we obviously know the basics of it.

[@RussianThunderrr]

@@j.4332 -- Yes, that is amazing, especially "phone talk" is a unique way to tell the story and put viewer into right mood, and then a "roller-coaster" ride through the rest of the story. Fantastic and very informative.

[@RubberToeYT]

Would love to see t34 drag race

[@grahamgilbert4883]

The Soviets were flayed at Prokhorovka. Taken in isolation, it was a clear German tactical victory within the context of a wider strategic defeat.

[@thethirdman225]

No, the Germans ultimately lost at Prokorovka. They certainly destroyed far more Soviet tanks in relation to their own losses but that was really their only claim to victory. This was their high water mark. Even though they beat the Red Army tanks, they did not go any further because they did not control the battlefield. If they really had, they would have gone a long way beyond, into the third line of Soviet defences.

[@grahamgilbert4883]

@@thethirdman225 "Far more" meaning a ratio of ten to one. Army Group South's irrecoverable armour losses in Zitadelle (5-16 July) were fewer than those suffered by the Russians at Prokhorovka on 12 July alone.

[@thethirdman225]

@@grahamgilbert4883 It was worse than that. According to Dr Roman Töppel, who has researched it extensively, including through army audits in the old Soviet archives, the Germans lost a total of four tanks at Prokhorovka. The Red Army lost in the vicinity of a hundred. The Germans still didn't win because at the end of the day, they left the battlefield without achieving their objective. It doesn't matter how many tanks they destroyed if they did not control the battlefield at the end. And to be clear on that, their objective was to push far further into the Kursk salient and ultimately link up with the forces attacking from the north. But the fact is that they got no further. It's only a win for the Germans if you consider that their sole objective was to destroy as many Red Army tanks as possible but what would have been the point of that? This was their high water mark. There is no question that for the Soviets this was a Pyrrhic victory that almost redefines the term but it was still a victory. People get distracted by the tank numbers.

[@ALimbOfGreatTree]

More east front content please!

[@Del_S]

8:32 sus

[@shawnjohnson9763]

If the state farm is giving you problems, just call Jake.

[@Thomason-xv4kp]

*panzerkampf noises in the distance*

[@krispypriest5116]

Sweaty palms in the fox hole!

[@Thomason-xv4kp]

@@krispypriest5116 .

[@grlt23]

Into the motherland The German army march...🎶

[@Guillaume_sono]

Sabaton is a shame to historians

[@Thomason-xv4kp]

@@Guillaume_sono nah you can learn atleast some history from them tho

[@Dman69420]

8:33 *Among Us* 👀

[@randomknight2585]

8:33

[@Casyfill]

I was watching another video on the subject (I struggle to remember which one) and there were few critiques of both sides - for example, that red army planes were called too early and failed to be effective.(the other one was re Hitler preventing Model from sinking even more troops into lost cause). I noticed you didn’t cover air fight as much - do you think that critique has some truth to it?

[@jamesgillen2339]

T-34 drag race? Yeah, that does sound really cool.

[@Ling-l6h]

Like the blind men and the elephant.

[@Cancoillotteman]

Count me in for the T34 drag-race !

[@tomasdvorak7307]

3:00 Why is the footage mirrored?

[@spartacus-olsson]

It’s not.

[@residentgeardo]

@@spartacus-olsson I think it is. The writing on the tank "за родину" (za rodinu, for the motherland) is clearly backward. But either way it does not matter. Just noticed it as well.

[@spartacus-olsson]

@ oh, I thought you meant the maps. Sometimes archives footage is mirrored for whatever reason - mostly because someone reversed the negative in development by mistake.

[@tomasdvorak7307]

@@residentgeardo You've explained that perfectly. Well, I think it may well be for cinematic reasons (German tanks go west to east, left to right, USSR's tanks go to west, right to left). I was pulling the legs of the English speakers who are often very critical of a foreign accent but cannot themselves recognise a mirror reversal of a foreign script. So one has to stop the frame to decipher it reads "For the fatherland", indeed. I think spartacus' explanation is a bit of BS, while I wouldn't be critical about "Uhh, we overlooked it". Obviously there are tons of footage to go through, the 'use it' or 'discard it' decisions, they can't study everything to the minute detail.

[@keesvanharen9791]

What a great summarizing of the battle!!

[@jill-ti7oe]

👏👏👏