Arming Sword Geometry

[@bear_the_valahian]

I just found out about 'battle ready swords' quite soon and I was surprised to find out how light and well balanced even big swords actually are.

[@MadOrkest]

Yeah, it's crazy what goes into making a REAL sword. That's why you can pick up a "sword-like object," and it feels like a baseball bat, but you can pick up a properly designed sword, and it feels completely different. Awesome stuff.

[@bear_the_valahian]

I had no idea the design was such a complex geometrically developed shape! Amazing!

[@kijinseija727]

No its autistic ADHD shit

[@danielsterling4918]

It's actually the same principles used to construct the vast majority of infrastructure (buildings, roads, bridges, sewage, satellite towers, observatories, etc) throughout the world, throughout history. Maybe there's more to it than just "ADHD shit," Kijin Seija...

[@MadOrkest]

Yeah, even those massive zweihanders were still balanced to be nimble and not cumbersome. They're really amazing weapons.

[@camillesennegon]

Really nice, i want to design daggers using this method but i don't understand the "math part" if i want a 10" dagger blade i don't know how to determine the diameter of the circles.. overall thank you for sharing your knowledge

[@peterjohnsson557]

First step is to have a general idea of size and proportions, very roughly. Then you quickly work out how that translates to hilt to blade proportion: is it 1 : 2 or perhaps 2:5 or 2:3. If your dagger should have a blade length of around 10", a 1:2 proportion will give you a hilt length of 5", a 2:5 hilt to blade proportion will give you a 4" hilt, a 2:3 hilt to blade ratio will give you a 6.6" hilt. With one you choose will depend on what type of hilt you are looking for (if it has a pommel, or not, how much length the guard takes up in over alllengtf and so on). The ratio between hilt and blade will determine your basic lay out of circles. (please take a look at the articles on geometric design that I have published on my home page under "notebook": www.peterjohnsson.com) When you draw the geometry you do not have to worry about drawing to full scale. After all: you have already an idea of the size of the dagger you are working with since this is how you decided which basic geometric structure that was useful for your layout. Therefore, any size of drawing that is practical will work. As a matter of fact it is better to scale the drawing to a practical size for your drawing pad and drawing instruments. You can also choose to work in a quarter or half scale as this makes it easy to see what the actual dimensions of the designs will be in full scale (4 or 2 times that of the drawing). Once you have the basic structure laid out you start defining the proportions of the parts. When you have reached a pleasing solution that is both aesthetically fulfilling and geometrically simple, you try out at what exact scale you should make the sword. If you vary the hilt only by a little bit, the blade will change length a lot and the other way around: if you change the blade a lot, the hilt will only change dimensions by a small fraction. If your geometry does not work out properly as a blade size to hilt size that you want, you can go back and adjust the proportions of the hilt, choosing a different number of circles used for the blade / hilt and/or a different placing of the guard in the series of circles (again, please look at the articles I have published on my home page to see the different alternatives you can use). This all may sound cumbersome and backwards, but once you have become accustomed to it you will see the benefits. The most powerful benefit of this method is that you soon will be able to design swords or daggers to a high degree of precision in your head even without a drawing board. You begin to internalise a system of proportions and the principles by which they relate. This way, you can work on your sword design during any hour of the day, if you are doing the dishes or sweeping the floor of the workshop. The second really powerful benefit is that this approach will change the way you appreciate the form of swords and daggers. You will be mindful of the overall and how the parts relate to each other, rather than worry about the dimensions of each part separately. The strength of this is that once you know the proportion between hilt and blade and the system by which the parts are related, you can determine with great exactness the dimension of each element without giving a second thought to what numeric measurement it might have. Since you can draw out the plan with compass and straight edge, you never have to look for numeric measurements, but rather take the exact dimension with your divider from the board. You are thus freed from the tyranny of inches or mm. Your work is not under the increments of the ruler. All aspects of your sword are made according the holistic or overall proportions of the sword. Each aspect is made with an understanding of how it relates to all other parts and all the parts will come together in a meaningful way. This may sound like new age ramblings, but it is really a game changer to how you relate to both design and process of making. So you see that the size of the circles really does not matter during the process. If you want to make a full size drawing when it is time to make the dagger/sword, you can of course do that, but you really do not need to do that either. You can make do with just the circle of the hilt and draw that one out to precision. You know the blade is a multiple of the hilt circle and you only need to take tat measurement a few times as you forge and find the blade. Once the blade is made, you can focus on the details of the hilt. It is easy to draw that circle on a board that you can have on your workbench. If you need to make changes in the hilt design, it is easily and quickly done on that board. Using geometry is a way to train your mind into thinking about how parts go together and the harmony of proportions of the piece rather than using a random standard for dimensions as the basis of your design. If you start out with a concern about exact measurements, instead of overall proportions you are easily led into choosing simple units of measure, rather looking at how the parts come together in a harmonic and coherent wholeness.

[@camillesennegon]

@@peterjohnsson557 thank you very much peter, i really appreciate your help, i'm a 15 years old bladesmith from france and i really want to become a good bladesmith, thanks i will try 😉

[@NikoStr8]

how did u determined the arc from the base of the blade to the tip? and the grip widht ?? really interested in this

[@peterjohnsson557]

Hi! In this case the arc of the blade (its contour or outline) and the width of the grip are not determined by the geometric armature. The grip s best left to be dimensioned after you have decided the scale you want to make the sword in. Once you have determined the size of the weapon you will make a grip that is of proper dimension for the user. This dos not have to be determined by geometry. In the case of the outline or contour of the blade, there are several ways you can define it by geometry. You can approach it is the same way as the ancient greeks defined the entasis (swelling) of the columns on their temples. An example of how they did this has survived in the Apollo temple of Didyma. www.google.com/earch?q=entasis+apollo+temple+didyma&client=safari&rls=en&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwigjdG934beAhWOmIsKHXB_AtkQ_AUIDigB&biw=1692&bih=965#imgrc=ETcnqGyukXvKSM: The principle is that you use a section of an arc and extend it proportionally. You can divide the section of the arc in equal parts or use other types of lay out to vary the curve. This is a bit involved to describe in text: I should really do a video to illustrate it. Thank you for your excellent questions! I hope this answer is satisfying. Kind regards P

[@NikoStr8]

thank you for taking the time to respond and give such developed answer . Im currently doing a type XIV wooden sword and your videos have been really useful. Also your posts about how to do the scabbards with the playwood. Top notch content !

[@peterjohnsson557]

Happy to hear this :-)

[@AllenNewberry]

Love your work!

[@peterjohnsson557]

Thank you Allen :-)

[@joseherrero1067]

How you know this? Its fantastic i want to know more

[@peterjohnsson557]

Geometry as a principle for design of swords is a hypothesis I have been working on since 2010. If you visit my home page: www.peterjohnsson.com you will find a few short introduction articles that may be a good start. I have published articles in museum catalogues and been curator of an exhibition at the Deutsches Klingenmuseum that had this idea as one of the main themes. The catalogue for the Solingen exhibition is "The Sword - Form & Thouhgt". The geometry of the medieval sword is described in greater depth there. shop.histofakt.de/product_info.php?products_id=64&language=en

[@joseherrero1067]

Oh i like this if you need help you can call me jaja, i realy like

[@Mortablunt]

Of course! If it sucked, it would not have stuck.

[@lukerope1906]

So all I see is a bunch circles and geometric shapes here. It's cool and all but why not give us numbers, measurements, and all that stuff? I nice big web article would be cool, or better yet several small ones for us to more easily digest. Don't keep all this info locked in your head, that's what the smiths of old did, and now we are trying to figure this stuff out again.

[@peterjohnsson557]

Joe, thank you for your kind words. I have published several articles about my hypothesis on the use of geometry in the design of the medieval sword. One is in the catalogue for the exhibition "The Noble Art of the Sword" at the Wallace Collection. Another is in the 2012 Park Lane Arms Fair catalogue. I was art of the curatorial team for the exhibition "The Sword - Form and Thought" at the Deutsches Klingenmuseum. You can surely google these articles for links. If you Google "Peter Johnsson Sword Geometry" or "Peter Johnsson Geometry of the Sword" you will also find many links to forums, interviews and lectures. You ask for numbers and dimensions and I understand this interest. However, what is central to geometry as a method for design is that you can design a sword without bothering to set numbers to dimensions. After the design is completed, you can choose the scale of the sword. If you set a certain total length or choose a specific blade length, you will then get all other dimensions automatically. That is the beauty with this method. It is also a very medieval way to go about things. :-) The actual size of the sword need only to be a vague guid when you design the sword, or if you choose, you can start out from a very precise dimension for blade length and work out the rest as you go. Using geometry is a way to translate harmonic proportion into exact dimensions without using a random standard for dimension. If you start out with a concern about exact measurements, rather than overall proportions you are easily led into choosing simple units of measure, rather looking at how the parts come together in a harmonic and coherent wholeness.

[@lukerope1906]

Peter Johnsson Thank you so very much, I will definitely do some google searches . If I could ask, in your experience with swords what would you say the average weight and point of balance of an one-handed cutting sword? Also, I would be very interested in the average distal taper as well. Thank you

[@peterjohnsson557]

Hi Joe, Average weight of a one handed cutting sword is nearly impossible to provide in a meaningful way since there are so many different kinds. An answer painted with a *very* broad brush: something between 1000 - 1200 g, perhaps? You will find both substantially lighter and heavier swords. Point of balance is one of those details that take too prominent a position in the description of swords. To bring this idea home, consider three bars of steel. All weigh the same, have the same length and all also have a point of balance exactly in the middle. However, one has pointed ends, the second is straight and the third swells at the ends like a dumbbell. Imagine putting each of these in rotation. See what I am getting at? It will take much more work to get the dumbbell shaped bar in rotation, than the one with pointed ends. This is an effect of distribution of mass. Mass can be distributed very differently without any shift of the point of balance. This same holds true for swords as well. Knowing the position of the point of balance does not tell you all that much unless you know how the mass is distributed in the sword. If I give you a number as a percentage of blade length from the guard, it will not be a good guide for you in choosing a sword. Saying all this, you can find the point of balance on a cutting sword as close as 10% of blade length from the guard to as far as 30% of blade length. It really depend on the type of sword and what style of swordsmanship it is made for.

[@lukerope1906]

Peter Johnsson Okay so I have one more question for you. Which considering your longstanding partnership with Albion Swords, might be a little controversial so if you choose not to answer I understand. Albion Swords, due to your help arguably make some of the finest swords out there. But not everyone can afford one. So in your opinion who makes the most accurate swords (as far a handling, and performance) in the 500-200 dollar price range? Thank you again, having this little KZbin chat with you is has been very educational!

[@peterjohnsson557]

Hi Joe, Glad you found the replies useful :-) I cannot give you any reliable advice regarding swords in the 500-200 USD range. There is not much out there that has peaked my interest enough for me to take a closer look. I may be missing something. However, consider the limitations of the price range. Of the customer price, you have pay those who import the swords, their overhead and marketing costs. You have to pay the middle men and shipping. There are custom fees to be payed. The manufacturer has to cover their overhead costs and make a profit. Far back in the line of costs you have the salary of the guys who make the sword. At this stage, there is not much left for them to feast on... How quickly can you make a sword? What is the hourly cost for the craftsmen? For me it takes a minimum of three to six weeks to make a single sword. Low price swords must be made a lot quicker, but there is a limit to how quickly you can make them. To speed up production you have to make shortcuts with materials and processes (the customer won´t notice or care, right?) and you have to push the salary of the maker down to a minimum. I am sure you could argue that the people in the workshop are happy to have a job in the first place, but you could still consider the ethical aspects of it. In the end, you must consider if an object like the sword is worth making all these compromises for? Are you really interested in a product that is produced on these terms? Are you willing to do the ethical summersault of paying a minimum price for expensive crap, that involve questionable standards? To my mind, you cannot turn horse shit into a slice of apple pie simply by paying a really low price for it. If something is good, perhaps it is worth a certain price. If you compromise too much, there is not much left but regret and dust.